Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26356342-20150826181407

I always enjoy walls of text, so by all means continue. To your current points:

Bronkiin wrote: As Ottoman Hold has rightly said, you argue very well for the Empire in your last post, but I do have some observations. You say Ulfric should have taken the fight to the Thalmor instead of rebelling against the Empire directly, as Hammerfell did. I am sure I don't need to point out the impracticalies of simply 'continuing to fight the Dominion', bearing in mind Skyrim shares no border with it. Skyrim's contribution to the great war was predominantly sending men to the front, as opposed to Hammerfell, where much of the fighting actually took place, and half of which was ceded to the Dominion (prompting Hammerfells continuation of the war and sucession from the Empire), at the conflicts end. Well first, thank you. I wouldn't mind hearing the impracticalies you saw, but to your point, Yes Hammerfell was different in that it had a rather large force to contend with, but when I say "taken the fight to the Thalmor" I mean just THAT, the Thalmor specifically (not the dominion) Ulfric and the thunderjackets keep mentioning taking the fight directly to the dominion, but When I say "continueing to fight the Thalmor" I mean search out and find the small force of justicars and such roaming around Skyrim, there wouldn't be that many of them (we can't exactly use the game mechanics for exact numbers) they only have the embassy, and a fort, then the handfull wandering around and the couple in the cities (such as the one in markarth) the stormcloaks outnumber them several times over, and as snowcat mentioned, attacking the Embassy is the same as an invasion. Ulfric acts as if removing the Empire will then ALSO remove the Thalmor, and I totally understand where he's coming from, he hates them both and wants them both removed by force. I just don't agree with it being the way to remove them. As I said before, if Ulfric just killed Thalmor, he would be viewed as a hero from almost everyone in Skyrim. Saving people being ripped from homes for worshiping Talos.

I largely agree with you as to the impossibilty of the Empire's situation in regards to the White Gold Concordat. However, it was an Emperor based in Cyrodil who accepted a treaty with implications for a vast swathe of Tamriel, including Skyrim. Just because the Empire has to accept it, that doesn't mean that the provinces should. "The chests of gold" which "didn't hurt" were the closest Skyrim came to accepting the terms of the treaty, and hence much of Skyrim (as manifested in the Stormcloak rebellion) does not accept the legitimacy of the treaty, nor, by extension, the Empire. The Stormcloaks seeks Skyrim's own sovereignty as that, they believe, is the surest way of guaranteeing religious freedom within Skyrim. Ulfric's motives aside, that is the reason why the grass roots of the movement have joined the Stormcloaks. I think it is harsh (if not wrong) to assume that 'Ulfric's anti-Empire hate speeches' are what have caused disenchantment with the Empire

I agree. and in the case of Hammerfell, they didn't agree to the terms and kept going. But just because you don't agree with a law passed, doesnt mean you should then try and attack those who made the law. The only REAL issue for Skyrim in the WGC was the part about Talos worship, unlike Hammerfell who would have lost huge portions of land, they just had to remove the shrines of Talos from the official churches (Which, don;t get me wrong IS bad) but it's also a largely accepted fact the Empire wasn't enforcing that portion of the treaty leading up to the Markarth Incident. Imperial soldiers weren't hunting people down for Talos worship. Just because Ulfric wanted things HIS way and wanted to display dominance, we now have enforcers in Skyrim. That's not the Empire's fault, they were content to just tell the dominion "Yeah, sure, we're upholding our end of the deal" and it wasn't till Ulfric made the Empire officially say on record they were allowing worship (a direct violation) the Dominion had everything they needed to have pseudo troops in Skyrim. This is the crucial point because it's the time where Ulfric does the dumbest thing ever and turns his ire to the Empire. He has every right to be mad, but if he had FROM THIS POINT on just killed every Thalmor he/ his militia saw, the bards would sing about how he was just trying to stick up for man-kind, and free Talos worship, the specific parts of the treaty he didn't agree with. Just as Hammerfell fought for the parts THEY didn't agree with. The Stormcloaks are right in the ideals they want, but they are lead by the wrong person. A person who is too scorned and too bitter to let go of blind hatred, and Hell, had he attacked just Thalmor, he wouldn't have made an enemy of the Empire, which means their relations could have (for the most part) remained intact for when the next war comes.

I'm not suggesting it's specifically Ulfric's speeches that prompted the disenchantment, but it certainly doesn't help. It's also suspicious the Stormcloak-sided Jarls all share the similar view as Ulfric against the Empire, not one of them thinks the Thalmor/Dominion are the true enemy, they believe as Ulfric does, that the Empire is the cancer that needs to be purged to avoid situations such as the WGC, where the Empire is making decisions for Skyrim. Ulfric is willing to kill the High King for listening to the Empire, and sac the hold capitols of the Jarls who don't agree with him, but he's not willing to point those soldiers and siege engines against the specific group who is literally kidnapping people in the night? Priorities!!! I mean hell, at least attack the Thalmor FIRST and then work on ridding the land of the Empire.

I agree to an extent that the Empire is not a full-on 'puppet' of the Dominion, but it must be noticed that the Thalmor have taken the administration of justice, at least in part, into their own hands, as seen by the Justicars in Markarth, and patrolling the roads of Skyrim. It was over control of their own justice system (seen by many as the last post of sovereignty) that saw Serbia reject the Dual Monarchy's ultimatum in 1914.

They've taken to administration of the Terms of the WGC, that's the most power they have within Skyrim. (which again, is mostly due to Ulfric's actions) And we all know that's mainly just to sew the seeds of conflict. They aren't trying to impose any additional laws onto SKyrim, and we have no reason to believe the laws of the Empire conflict any of the laws within Skyrim, it's just the big new one everyone has a problem with.

But what if Ulfric had taken one of the discarded Talos statues, and erected it right in front of the palace of kings, proclaiming free and open worship of Talos within the Walls of Windhelm. Eventually Justicars would come to enforce the rules, Ulfric captures, and beheads them, and drops off the heads at the Embassy mocking the ultimatum originally given to Emperor Mede. He coult literally sit and wait as Thalmor came to him directly, or till the Empire trys to demand he stop, he refuses (because of course he does) and forces the Empire's hand to either help or leave. It's HIS hold, if the High King was as reasonable as everyone else says he was, He wouldn't have done anything to attempt to FORCE Ulfric to stop, me might have even helped. It's essentially the same thing as the Markarth incident except it's his own hold, and no one is fighting to maintain control of the city. Without the High king being killed the Empire wouldnt have cause to physically intervene, and if they did it just goes to prove Ulfric's point and we'd be right back here except the High King would be alive, and the stormcloaks would be seen more as crusaders and less like traitors/rebels. Ulfric could reinstate the Knights of the Nine and get all king-Arthur-like, him and his diamond knights riding around killing every Thalmor they see....