Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150928140042/@comment-26801133-20151006191542

Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote: First, there is Whiterun to consider; specifically Balgruuf, who seems a far better leader than Vignar Gray-Mane (who, compared to Balgruuf, seems like just a grumpy old guy who can't stop talking about the old days). But if you side with the Stormcloaks, you're forced to kick him out -- and he even berates you for it, saying "I thought better of you" before going to Solitude and swearing that the Stormcloaks -- yourself included -- will all pay for dethroning him. Come on, who doesn't feel like Tamriel's biggest jerk after doing that mission? I must sadly agree with you on that part. That is one of my biggest reasons why my support to the Stormcloaks is rather thin. After my first playthrough, when I seized Whiterun for the Stormcloaks, I felt so bad for Balgruuf and after I was done with the Stormcloak questline, I immediately loaded a save before I picked a side and joined the Empire instead. Then I learned that the Empire questline was identical to the Stormcloak questline, with the exception of the Battle of Whiterun. Its not that I don't think Vignar is a decent replacement. He, like Balgruuf, is someone who cares for his people and his city, and tries to preserve the peace of the city, just like before the siege. But I have a more bias for Balgruuf because 1) he was the first to look into the dragons and ways defend his city from them, 2)he was the first Jarl to make me Thane and provide me a home and 3)he is a lot younger than Vignar and will be able to rule Whiterun for a longer time. But I will say, that Vignar sure has a lot of fight in him. For an old man to offer to help the Dragonborn fight and capture a dragon is a pretty stalwart feat.

However, while Balgruuf was a good man, he wasn't perfect either.'' "Being honorable might make you a good man, but it doesn't make you right. Be a better world if it did." ''- Captain Aldis. And even though I feel bad over exiling him, I decided to not let that be the determining factor over which side I choose. "Sometimes you just do what needs to be done. You don't have to hate a man to kill(or exile) ''him. Though, admittedly... it helps." ''- Captain Aldis.

College Mage: Ferris wrote: To my fellow citizens of the great Empire, hate Ulfric, hate Galmar, hate some of the Jarls, but DO NOT hate the Stormcloaks. They fight for what they believe in, they fight for freedom, and they fight for Talos, all admirable things. Honor them in life, as they will be honored in Sovngarde.

I don't agree with a lot of what Ulfric does, but I understand why he does it, and I would suggest you all do the same. He's not totally wrong, and (I feel) part of siding with the Empire, means you need to admit and accept that fact.

“A man is made by the quality of his enemies.” Saying the Stormcloaks are weak and stupid, when they've put up this much resistance is the exact same as saying the Empire is weak and stupid for not having stopped them yet. Lets bring this back to the real arguments.

Well said! While I do not agree with the Empires methods and actions, I can still see why they are doing what they are doing. There are plenty of Nords who believe that aiding the Empire will benefit Skyrim in the long run. And it isn't unreasonable to think so, a united force is in most cases the best method to deal with an opposing faction, but not always. Whether they are right or wrong, remember that what they fight for is for Skyrim, first and foremost. Just like the Stormcloaks.