Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26356342-20150910224405

Bronkiin wrote: The only form of segregation in Windhelm pertains to the Argonians, who have to live outside the walls. Just like the Khajiit in every single hold in Skyrim! And even then, this was not a policy introduced by Ulfric, but one which has been in more or less continuous practice since Hoag Merkiller in the First Era.

I did come across this quote from Scouts-Many-Marshes: "You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm." coupled with his indifference towards dunmer plights, which could be viewed as a type of racism, and Brunwulf Free-Winter mentioning "Good. Too many Nords in this town have been listening to Ulfric's narrow-minded words. He's tough, loyal to his men and a good leader, but if you're not a Nord, Ulfric will never trust you." All I'm saying is there is some evidence to suggest he might be a bit racist. Not just him tho, a bunch of Nords are... its almost a racial trait.

S'Dalaar the Snowcat wrote: But how do you know for sure? Uflric, post-Markarth Incident, is very anti-Empire, yes. But pre-Markarth Incident, we don't really know.

We Kind-of do, he served the Empire during the great war, he was captured, tortured, and lead to believe the information he gave up is what caused the sack of the imperial city. He was allowed to escape, and shortly after was the Markarth incident. He fought and bled for the Empire, only to see it fall and betray the nords by banning the worship of Talos. The Empire was wrapped up in its own issues reclaiming their own land back to send aid to anyone really. It isnt as if they sat back and said "let them sort it out" and then sent troops once it was over with. He absolutely intended to get the empire's attention. Thats why I brought up the moot, because the markarth incident marks the point where he became anti-empire. (altho you could argue it was the signing of the WGC)

Seems like Jarls are pretty much just puppets of the Empire then. But in that case, then the Jarl of Markarth also committed a crime? He made a deal with Ulfric behind the back of the Empire(his superior)?

Not necessarily, it's not illegal to hire mercenaries to kill bandits afterall. The Jarl's intentions weren't to hire out Ulfric so that they could keep his city. Ulfric made it illegal when he himself refused Empire entry until demands were met. You could blame the Jarl for ever promising open worship in the first place, which at the time was illegal. To the point of puppets, well.. puppets would imply the Empire frequently tells the Jarls what to do, which they dont, Skyrim is pretty much run by the High King and the Jarls. The Empire just owns the actual land itself, as property, in doing so, Skyrim agrees to obey Imperial law in exchange for goods and services and trade and such.

But what would have been better, risk a war with your enemy or a guaranteed war with your allies? Or the third option: the Emperor could have seceded Skyrim to end all conflict and left it at that. Which they didn't.,/div>

It's the timing of the incident thats a factor here. It was just 1 year after the great war and the peace treaty was signed, had it been more recent, such as just before the game started (27 years after the great war) They would be in a better position to "openly" allow the Talos worship and not fight their own allies. I don't think they would have, but it would be a better argument. The Emperor NEEDS those Skyrim Warriors. He cannot afford to lose both Hammerfell AND Skyrim while he's trying to build his forces back up to fight the Dominion. So just allowing them to secede was not really an option. Also theres a lot of Imperial business and land owners in Skyrim who would have opposed the idea as well.

A place where the Thalmor, who claim to have no interest in the internal politics of Skyrim, still showed up at the meeting.

They had the right of it in this instance because the last time the Empire made a deal with Ulfric, they granted him open worship of Talos and broke the terms of the WGC.(she will even claim as much when you try and send her away) It wasnt about Skyrim politics. But even if it was... The dominion only have a threat to fall back on. If the Empire were to hold an alliance or trade supply meeting and the Thalmor saw fit to sit in, they couldn't reject terms on behalf of the Empire. They could threaten to attack, but as long as the terms of whatever agreement don't include "open worship of Talos they have no say in what happens. I think you may be giving them too much credit due to characters hating the fact they have to play nice and attend their parties and such. That treatment where the Thalmor try to "remind" the empire of their power doesnt translate to "the Empire WILL do LITERALLY ANYTHING for the Thalmor/Dominion" I am more than certain if the Thalmor tried to lean on the Empire on matters that do not concern the WGC, they would be rejected. We have no evidence that suggests they would fight battles for the dominion in order to maintain peace, there IS a line between them.

They didn’t need to help the Thalmor, because they already renounced the province from the Empire. That way the Empire had no obligations enforce anything on the province and making it the Domnions own problem. Had the Empire decided to keep Hammerfell in the Empire, they would be forced to make the Redguards accept the terms of the WCG(which would mean lots of territory loss to the Dominion).

But by your logic of the Empire being forced to help the Dominion, the second Hammerfell was no longer part of the Empire, the Dominion could have said "Ok now fight them" but the WGC is just a peace treaty not an alliance. Even if they kept Hammerfell AND gave the lands to the Dominion, and then Hammerfell had its own civil war, the Dominion wouldnt even need to be involved at all, they would sit back and let the Empire cripple itself (as its currently doing in Skyrim) They wouldn't fight along side each other, as the terms of the WGC work both ways, If Hammerfell had stayed part of the Empire and the Dominion was STILL attacking them they are attacking the Empire and breaking their own terms.

As for your argument of the Empire not enforcing the Talos ban at all, here is a bit of dialogue I found: "Now that the Imperial blight has poisoned Riften, the worship of Talos is strictly forbidden by the terms of the White-Gold Concordat. They can defile our shrine, they can arrest our people and they can silence our voices, but the Empire will never destroy our spirit. As long as we keep Talos in our heart, his legacy will never die." - Nura Snow-Shod.

But he's not specifically saying they did any of that, he's saying they can. As in "You may take my life but you can never take my freedom" signifying that no matter what they do, they'll never be able to stop people from believing in Talos. But it's also not the Empire's Goal to do that to begin with. As you said Stormcloaks tend to use the Thalmor and Empire interchangeably which isn't the case, and partly Why I dislike them as a whole honestly.

Let me help you with that. I know that the Empire lost control of Valenwood and Hammerfell from 3E 249 to 3E 267, by the Camoran Usurper. He was defeated by the combined naval forces of different High Rock kingdoms. There was also a Civil War caused by Potema called The War of the Red Diamond, where Skyrim and High Rock was overtaken by her forces.

But in short the overall point was the Septims were not the perfect dynasty, and it was not pointed at you directly, moreso to the people who I've seen before claiming the Mede Dynasty is shit compared to the Septim's. You do have a point about a single nation able to overcome incredible odds, but theres mitigating factors for each side. High Rock wasnt facing 3 nations banded together under the flag of "total domination over man" which I think in this case can make a huge difference.

That all depends on what you mean by supplies. Skyrim has the resources to craft their own weapons and armor, along with building their own siege machines and even ships.

They do have enough to be self sufficient for the most part, but at present they are not prepared for this. War takes a HUGE toll on resources, specifically food, weapons, and money. Skyrim has been apart of the Empire for a very long time and its entire economy is based off that. To lose such a huge portion of your economy is devastating. For instance, food; when preparing for winter for yourself you stock up on food, but suddenly now Skyrim is dependent on itself and is funding a war, you can't suddenly grow MORE food to now prepare for the war and winter. Theres also only so many animals you can hunt, time needs to pass for the animals to grow and such. When people have to start giving away their food to help everyone it can cause unrest. Materials: Theres only so many blacksmiths who can make weapons, and they can only produce so many at a time. On top of that, they need metal. People who own mines will be asked to give away their stocks to help the war effort unless someone such as Ulfric would be fronting the bill on that. If coin isn't going into the mine, the miners are either being paid little or not at all. This is all worst case scenario I know, but if even 1 of these things happens while they're trying to fight the dominion and hold off the Empire from swooping back in, they are in some serious trouble.

So you think. Or maybe so the Thalmor WANTS you to think. The Dominion only got so far in the first Great War was because they took the Empire by surprise.

True, they could do all that however in doing so they leave their own boarders unguarded. While not impossible, they would have to risk sailing past Hammerfell and High Rock to get to that point. Also, if they did get that far they have nowhere to retreat to if they couldn't handle the situation, they'd be deep in enemy territory, possibly caught between 3 armies, Skyrim, Hammerfell, and High Rock, who tho may not have an alliance could take advantage of such a strange maneuver by the Dominion. it'd be too risky. A small force doing that could potentially cause some damage, but it wouldnt be like it was in the first great war.