User blog comment:LeDaea/On Attribute removal from Skyrim/@comment-3217145-20130413185529

This is actually a response to something TheBlackOmen said, but that reply thread has basically split into two different topics.

You made the point that the lack of Attributes in Skyrim disadvantages “pure” builds. You also said that the Stealth Pure build, specifically, is overpowered and not a good way to judge this problem. I decided to test this.

First, I took the Archer character I described elsewhere, Legendary'd her Archery and Lockpick, and decided to focus on melee. I conjured myself an axe and went bandit-hunting. Keep in mind that I'm wearing all Light Armor (significantly reinforced by Smithing, with a total Skill of 121 after enchantments). I have 25 Conjuration and 30 Two-Handed, with only the most basic "damage increases" perk, yet enemies are scaled to my level of 55. I've been focusing on Stamina, then Health, then Magicka. I have no enchantments or potions to improve anything but Archery. This is not an optimized build.

Fighting bandits was somewhat hard, especially if they pulled out magic or arrows on me. I basically strafed around things and forced them into narrow passages to handle them. Using potions to heal a few times, I had no problem getting through the cave. The Ancient Dragon outside was more difficult; I had to use my crossbow to knock it out of the sky, then bull-charge it with my axe and survive its breath attacks. Throughout my time using this style, I never encountered a problem that some smart fighting or extra precautions (mostly healing potions; all found, none brewed with Alchemy) couldn't help.

I then started a new character on Expert difficulty, focusing entirely on magic (mostly Illusion and Conjuration). I used a sword in my left hand and spells in my right. I played through normally to Bleak Falls Barrow, where I fought mostly with Conjure Familiar and Raise Zombie, occasionally Fury, and Flames or sword attacks for when I already had a minion and couldn't make another one. I died a couple times, but learned to weave around objects for cover and get enemies to fight my minions. After leveling a few times and raising Magicka, getting various "costs half magicka" perks, and yes, equipping robes to improve regen rate, Magicka management was a significant part of play, but was...manageable.

Granted, I haven't spent days testing these builds, but I don't see the nuance that has supposedly been destroyed by the lack of Attributes. I played a full-Ebony sword-and-shield Sneak-centered character in Oblivion, and all-out combat wasn't significantly different from the axe combat here. I do miss being fast enough to zip back and forth to evade enemy attacks while slicing them apart, but that just meant I had to alter my fighting style. Instead of just pumping Endurance for high Health and Stamina, I had to raise and balance them separately. Playing a mage, I didn't have to alternate between magic schools so I could raise my Intelligence and Willpower equally, I used whatever worked at the time then raised my Magicka directly.

To respond to the claim that stealth is overpowered: my stealthy archer would have been mauled if I took her to Bleak Falls Barrow on Expert at level 3. As soon as a sneak attack failed to kill an enemy and alerted everything in the room, I would be on my own, and basically forced to use melee or magic to fight them. This would change at higher levels, but at higher levels, all character builds become significantly more effective. With the mage, I torched enemies with Flames for DOT, then bombarded them with minions while I made the occasional one-handed power attack. If I were at a higher level and could summon two Atronachs and paralyze people and blow them away with Fireball, it would have been a cakewalk. I see little disadvantage to mages or warriors compared with stealthy characters simply because of the lack of Attributes (but more about that below). If anything, Skyrim adds much more complexity to being a mage compared with previous systems, where all you have to do is pump Int and Will.

But while it's not necessarily good game balance, it is perfectly reasonable that a stealth-oriented character should be at an advantage. Effective stealth was just as "overpowered" in Oblivion as it is in Skyrim, except that bows in that game are far too weak to be helpful. It is simply a better tactic, not a result of the Skill or Attribute system. All war is deception; avoiding damage while damaging the enemy is tactically sound. Building a character to simply withstand damage is a valid personal choice – the game is designed to be playable regardless of choice – but not a “smart” one. This is classical strategy. Battles are always won with better tactics. Of course, this isn't “fair” in game terms. If the battle system had less freedom, this advantage would be easy to remove; DAO is a good example, since Stealth was a limited mechanic and not generally tide-turning. In an open-ended game like TES however, it would be extremely difficult to balance Stealth down to the same effectiveness as non-stealth without breaking it.

Finally, I also take issue with the complaint that “pure” classes are at a disadvantage. Of course they would be! They're training one specific thing to be very good, while ignoring others. This makes them very good at that one thing, while leaving gaping vulnerabilities in other areas. It is only reasonable that a well-rounded class should be better equipped to handle varying situations. If all you ever fought were melee duals, a greatsword-toting Berserker would be absurdly effective. But when that Warrior ends up on a narrow bridge facing a small squad of archers, they will be at a disadvantage, because the archers can attack them while they can't reach the archers. The warrior needs to adapt their strategies to handle this situation, or acquire a more diversified skillset that allows them to fight on even ground. Conversely, a mage might summon an Atronach in the middle of the archers, drawing their attention and taking advantage of their poor melee skills to make the fight much easier, but be completely helpless when two draugr warriors rush them. Pure classes are only tactically advantageous if every fight can be made to conform to their strengths. Overcoming the challenge and winning a fight where you're at a disadvantage is part of the game. My claim that Pure classes aren't disadvantaged “all that much” was a little naive. However, I think this disadvantage is a logical conclusion that follows from a well-balanced set of possible skills, and is in-line with reality. Yet, it is still possible to succeed with this character build. I do not see a failing with the system in this regard.