Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-71.61.178.23-20130722105712/@comment-71.61.177.24-20140228152513

-chants- NPC RECOGNITION! NPC RECOGNITION! NPC RECOGNITION!

Ahem.

YES. We need more NPC behaviors reflecting the player-character's abilities. You can join the Companions at any level, and they'll still call you "whelp" and belittle your abilities even if you're wearing full Daedric and have the (imaginary) scars of a thousand battles. Most everybody in Skyrim is condescending, actually, although that might just be the snakes-are-everywhere phenomenon at work.

If you're at higher levels, but still need skill training, then perhaps some trainers who know who you are (because not everybody will; Tamriel is a big place, after all, and even if the Black Horse Courier is still around, information doesn't travel very quickly) might say something like "It would be my honor to teach you," or "To think that I might train somebody of your caliber! Very well." Very high levels of course, for the second one especially. Of course you can expect some of the higher-up people, like Jarls and the Guild folks, to be more sceptical of the rumors of heroes coming in, but the more common people would probably accept your status more readily at higher levels - perhaps at lower levels, you might get comments from people indicating that they think you're competent, as well as the "raw beginner" ones, but nothing special as far as skills go.

Then for middle levels, you might cause a local stir, like "Hey, they're actually quite good." The populace of whatever area you tend to stick in might boast about you, which could be the fuel for loads of quests - proving your skills to some rude adventurer from another area might be one of them. This would be local fame, the way Adrianne Avenicci is the second best blacksmith in Whiterun, for example. I get the feeling that if Eorlund and the Skyforge weren't there, she'd be a source of sort of mild local pride. Since he is there, though, everybody's prouder of him.

Next few levels, you might start to get something of an interprovincial reputation - kind of like Radiant Raiment. People have heard of it in other holds, they think "oh, that's the famous local tailors in Solitude, I've heard they're quite good and cater to the wealthiest people in Skyrim." Mild sort of fame, some people have barely heard of you. They'll just go "hey, you're that [insert profession of player-character here] from [insert player-character's preferred settlement or area here]." Nobody would claim your skills to be especially, hero-level awesome at this point, so no "are you really as good as they say"s here.

That comes next level, when you start to go from rumor to legend. People are sceptical of your abilities, more so the further they live from your stamping grounds and the higher-ranking they are. Then, you get to the point where everybody seems to know about you, but bandits won't fear to rob you, people won't venerate your butt from home to High Hrothgar, nothing really hero-y or legendary. You're a common reference, but not a byword. A little like a famous author who isn't really a celebrity author - like that sellsword who wrote that guide to Markarth. Probably fairly well-known in mercenary circles, but not really seen to be particularly awesome, just widely ackgnowledged as the person who did this and is fairly cool. Some trainers, not very high-level ones, but lower-level ones who might be expected to already be in awe of somebody at this stage, might start to give you the "It'd be an honor to teach you" line.

Then at the next stage of fame, more people start to speak of you with awe - a little like how people in Skyrim speak of the Greybeards, only you'd be less mysterious and high-and-mighty. People know who you are, they aren't really awed by your presence in their general province, you're kind of starting to be an inter-provincial sensation.

Then, you get the sort of treatment you get in the Adrianne Avenicci stage, only inter-provincial. Whole provinces might be proud of you. Then you get to serious hero status - from really famous person, to total legend. At these three stages, you get the "To think that I might train someone of your caliber" line. And it doesn't get much higher than that, unless somebody pulls a Shivering Isles and makes you a deity.

Furthermore, what sort of quests you do will further your reputation with factions who specialize in the areas of the quests. I'm thinking stuff like Blood on the Ice would get some guard factions interested - it's good to have someone smart amongst the Scotland Yarders, heh. Finishing any mage faction's quest will get all of the other mage factions trying to convert you - except maybe the College of Winterhold, which, if I recall correctly, is more introverted and study-oriented and therefore not as interested in such things. Similarly, if you join, say, the Vigil of Stendarr (a non-Skyrim chapter, of course; I'd like to think that in Skyrim, the chapter of Vigilants remained fairly gone and was superceded by the Dawnguard, who became increasingly ineffective, but remained) some priests might like you, you'd get better dispositions with Dawnguard members, etc. The Companions will of course get other combat guilds intrigued - not the Fighter's Guild, obviously, but perhaps smaller ones, like the two knight factions you can join in Oblivion (I'd like to think that the descendants of Mazoga turned the Knights of the White Stallion into a chaotic-good type evil-fighting faction, and the Knights of the Thorn emerged from adversity into a lawful-good type faction in an endeavor to prevent history from repeating itself), maybe the Blackwood Company (a foolish hope of mine; the bad publicity from the Hist Sap discovery would probably put them out of business permanently. Unless they went criminal underworld...that would be very fun.), probably the Renrijra Krin, the dragon hunters and other freelance adventurers that'll turn up. If you join the Renrijra Krin, you'll get comments from Elsweyr-connected Khajiit - caravans, some of the people in Elsweyr might have heard of you, maybe some people living in Leyawiin. You might get enemy's respect from assassins of the opposite faction if you join the Morag Tong or Dark Brotherhood - you know, that sort of "they're good. I have to commend the Brotherhood for snatching up a talent like them so quickly. Not that they won't be out of the way shortly, of course." thing. Bandits and freelance thievery folks (like the urchins I suggested, freelance fences like Belethor really ought to be, the usual independent thieves that really can't not exist, because it's absurd for all crime to be swept into a guild) might be in awe of Thieves' Guild members or Camonna Tong members. Or they might scorn them as too restricting or not good enough. Either way. :P

There really ought to be merchant factions. And craftsman factions. And writing factions. And artist factions. And more divine factions. And the option to become just a worshipper of a Daedric Prince, rather than their Champion. The way I see it, you should have to actually choose to go and request the chance for a quest from the Prince in question to get the quest, rather than just getting sucked into it by a randome priest/glowy orb/talking dog/etc. Of course random-start Daedric quests would still happen, but they'd require a certain level to start on their own, like Hircine's quest, which you have to kill a lycanthrope in one shot for, while you could also go to the shrine and just ask for a quest. Something like, "Jyggalag sent me. He needs your help to stop this war." "Lord/Lady [Prince name], I beg for a chance to be made your Champion." "Do you have any services I could perform for you?" Just for roleplay pupouses, a few different dialogue options and possibly slightly different versions of the quest. Some characters might be goal-oriented, not really caring about the Prince themselves and just going for the alliance. Worshippers might be ambitious or simply pious.

I also think you should be able to refuse most higher-ranking positions you get as quest rewards. For example, what if your character doesn't feel ready to become Arch-Mage of the College of Winterhold in Skyrim? I always thought you should be able to nominate somebody else. J'zargo would definitely be on the list, heh. It would be fun to watch him achieve his dream, but then realize that being the Arch-Mage comes with responsibilities, and grow up some. Character development! CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!

Anyways, back to Towers, away from Skyrim. If you don't want to become a Prince's Champion, but just want the Jyggalag alliance, you can refuse the Championship, still maybe get lycanthropy or vampirism or a promise of the Prince's afterlife or whatever, just not the artifact. It makes sense that you shouldn't have to get stuff you don't want just to progress the main quest - like in Skyrim when you had to join the College of Winterhold (and therefore have enough magicka to cast the spell at the gate) to progress the main quest. If your character hates Daedric Princes, doesn't really want to get dragged along with this at all, and is only in it to keep Nirn safe, let them just barely deal with the Princes, rather than becoming their Champions and collecting all the artifacts and whatnot. Of course the Daedric Prince alliances are fairly optional anyways - mortals don't need the help of nonmortals to turn the tides of their own society, it just helps. But if you want to get the extra edge without the Daedra-worshipper thing, I don't think you should be left out, heh.

If you don't want to be Captain of the Guard in so-and-so place, Arch-Mage of whatever mage guild you choose, leader or official of something, you can refuse, and nominate somebody else. Except in the Dark Brotherhood. The Night Mother brooks no refusal. Either you Listen to her, or the guild collapses. Although I think being able to do that would be cool - if you, for example, joined in order to disable the guild, to further the Morag Tong instead, you could refuse to Listen, and sabotage the entire structure or the DB.

I just realized how player-oriented this is. All games should really be made by people who are aiming to make a good, fun game, not to get money. :P Of course if everybody who made games didn't get paid for it, games would be an unfeasible thing to make, but still. Games made for fans, by fans, for no charge, seem like they'd be so much better than games made based on what companies think will sell.

Of course what factions you join and quests you complete wouldn't be the only influence on other factions! I went a little off-topic as regards the current the discussion there, I think. Skills would do great things. Terrible, but great. -Ollivander voice-

Skill trainers will like you better if you're good in their skill. Warrior skills would catch the eye of the Companions, Knights, Guards, and Renrijra Krin, as well as freelance warriors like the mercenaries you can hire in Skyrim and the aforementioned dragon hunters. Alchemy and mage skills, stealth skills, etc, likewise to their guilds. And at higher levels, yes, some kind of celebratory boss, no-quests-attatched, is probably in order.

Also, I kind of want to give Ma'iq a backstory. I know the whole point of him is that he's a mystery, but it can be an optional feature of the game. "Find out who Ma'iq is and why he wanders Tamriel! Or don't, if you prefer him mysterious." Perhaps he - or rather, they - have a really tragic backstory for why being a mysterious and sometimes untrustworthy traveller is their legacy. I think that could be sort of cool. But where exactly he gets all of his information remains a mystery. He might also mention having met the Priestess of Meridia, our personal Easter Egg, and conferring with her on many things, implying that they swapped game mechanics knowledge and silly gamer jokes at some point. :P So he stays a slightly lore-breaking, silly, mysterious Easter Egg, while still getting a little backstory with a sort of startling and fun twist.

Sorry for yet another wall of text.

- WorshipsMeridia