Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-27007772-20140611204941/@comment-116.68.121.232-20150511022008

70.176.171.126 wrote: Pink Slim wrote:

College Mage: Ferris wrote:

Well Hammerfell isnt known for helping anyone other than themselves for the most part.. but that aside, Skyrim wouldnt let any of the Alik'r within city limites, i doubt they'd be open to the idea of working them them. The same could be said of Morrowind, they dont have the best relations, and I don't imagine that it would improve with Ulfric in charge. Ulfric isnt going to ask Morrowind for aid, not saying he himself is racist like everyone else tends to, but he doesn't strike me as the type to strategically call to them for help... and if the Thalmor get to morrowind first, theres absolutely no way (even with Hammerfell's help) to win in a war fighting at multiple fronts like that. High Rock is still with the Empire isnt it? (honestly can't remember) So they couldnt ask them for aid either, they'd be pretty much alone in that fight.

The only reason Hammerfell isnt still part of the Empire is because the Empire was essentially trying to do damage control, they signed a treaty and Hammerfell refused to listen to the terms, so rather than upset the "relative peace" they just had to say "screw it, they're not with the empire anymore!" Once the Empire gets back up and ready to fight, who's to say they wouldnt ask Hammerfell for help? (I doubt Hammerfell would help, having been scourned.. but perhaps if the right terms are presented to them they could be persuaded).

At least with Skyrim still part of the Empire, the Thalmor have to spread out over larger territories. Weakened as they are now, they can't maintain control over THAT much territory, annexing Skyrim makes it easier for them to invade. United we stand! Divided we fall!

You have probably one of the best points I've read tho, Skyrim only having to essentially sit and wait. Provided something (like rebuilding their numbers) keeps them busy... but With the white-gold concordant, Cyrodill is obligated to let them invide using Cyrodill as a jumping off point. They can't say "no" that's a breach of the treaty. They arent sending any aid to Hammerfell after it declared independance, why wouldn't they allow the AD to use their border to attack Skyrim? As a side note, Skyrim needs supply lines to stay open, as the land isnt the best for farming and such. An independant Skyrim could face an embargo on all trade with the Empire entirely.

Cyrodill has no reason to come to the aid of Skyrim if it's not part of the Empire, and Hammerfell has no reason to lose men defending a land they're hardly even allowed into. Hammerfell may warn Skyrim, but they wont send ships to intercept. Skyrim on its own has the Cyrodil border, High Rock, and the Northern border (tho admittedly with all the ship wrecks the nothern border might be fine) to defend. If the AD got Morrowind involved, theres absolutely no way they could defend themselves. At least General Tulius mentiones preparing to fight the AD again, which could also mean the other generals know that's the next step, but can't openly discuss it.

To me, it all points to "Side with the Empire", more men, more supplies, more strategic advantages. Stormcloak or Empire, we all hate the Thalmor, lets just fight them together. The alik'r are permitted within cities, just not those alik'r in that particular city, seeing as they had caused enough trouble for one of their members to get himself arrested.

The relations between skyrim and morrowind address actually pretty great compared to their history; also, unlike you I do believe their relations will improve, including the relations with the Dunmer within skyrim(once the civil war is ended it will cause most of the diverted war funds to help rebuild skyrim)

Morrowind will most likely not join with the altmer, but even if they did they wouldn't have the numbers to fight a war so close to home, doing so would pretty much invite the argonians to attack them.

While highrock is a part of the empire they would be cut off from the rest of the empire (cyrodiil) and it would be unlikely that skyrim or hammerfell would permit them to trade with cyrodill freely, it would be in their best interest to leave cyrodill to themselves and trade with their neighbors.

Yeah if the right terms are presented hammerfell would rejoin the empire, but hell, if the right terms are presented hammerfell could just as easily join the Aldmeri Dominion, you can't say with "if things go perfectly" when it comes to something as unlikely as hammerfell rejoining the empire.

The thalmor annexing skyrim? There's no reason to assume they could. If you mean preventing skyrim from seceding then yes they have more territory to oversee, but that would also stop them from crippling skyrim from within, yes it could allow them to increase pressure on the remaining members of the empire, but that would only increase chances for them to revolt against the Dominion.

As for permitting an army through cyrodill, I don't think you have the right idea of what a peace treaty is, in no way would it be a part of a peace treaty for one country to just permit their enemies to march an army right through them, that would just be stupid, and as said above it would be extremely easy for cyrodill to attack then from the rear and beginning the next great war in earnest. Plus I haven't read anything that says the white gold concordat prevents the empire from refusing demands from the Dominion, you're going to have to bring proof for something as books a statement as that.

As for the embargo, I said it before and I'll say it again, skyrim can just as easily place an embargo on highrock and cyrodill, unlike the empire though skyrim can still trade with hammerfell and morrowind, and they can set up a blockade with the help of hammerfell to prevent highrock and cyrodill to trade by land. Doing so would likely give highrock good enough reason to leave the empire and negotiate trade with hammerfell and skyrim.

Don't see it as coming to aid skyrim, see it as taking the opportunity to take out the real threat, if the Aldmeri Dominion is busy fighting skyrim they will leave themselves wide open for an attack on their border territories. And Ulfric, Galmar, Stormcloak officers, and even Stormcloak foot soldiers openly talk about the fact that they're planning to fight the Aldmeri Dominion once skyrim is stabilized.

You're going with the worst case scenario against an independent skyrim, where the empire pretty much joins the Aldmeri Dominion in destroying skyrim, somehow convincing morrowind to join them, and hammerfell just watching as their only potential ally is destroyed. If that's the case you're trying to make I would still choose it, better to die fighting the Dominion than be a part of an empire that would join them in destroying your ex-members who left you because of the potential that the empire would end up exactly the way you say they will. Now THIS is why I got an account here... I greatly respect you Pink Slim, you do the stormcloaks honor. I have to concede on the Alik'r as I dont have direct evidence. TO me personally, when they mentioned not being allowed within city limites, and not seeing them in any of the other major cities, coupled with the fact Skyrim even in Civil war is technically still part of the Empire, they wouldnt allow recently released people within their boundries (especially ones targeting a woman who may have helped thalmor). But thats what I personally took from the whole situation, so just my opinion can't be counted really...

What is it that makes you think the relationship between Morrowind and Skyrim will inprove? Ulfric isn't known for strong relationships with elves. He's not activly doing things to harm them, but he isnt jumping to their rescue either. At best Morrowind remains Neutral. My quoted point above was aimed more at the idea an Independant Skyrim lead by Ulfric would try and gain relations with Morrowind, in an attempt to pull them into the fight. I don't see that happening. Listen to all the Jarls put in charge if Ulfric wins, they all share the idea "Skyrim is for the Nords" none of them is asking Dunmer for help. I think even if Ulfric wanted to he couldn't honestly, he might appear weak to his supporters asking Mer of any kind for aid.

If the relations with the Dunmer were bad going into the war, and you then put a bunch of "pro humans" in charge, how do they improve? I'm not suggesting they'd get worse (I personally believe they would, but for the sake of argument am not trying to bring that in) but theres nothing to suggest after Ulfric wins he'd fix things for them, whereas siding with the Empire, the Jarl in charge of windhelm actively trys to rebuild relations with them. (which I also honestly believe would get him killed, but he at least shows he's trying to rebuild relations)

You (again) make an excellent point on Morrowind not siding with the Dominion, if for no other reason than leaving their homeland open to Argonian invasion. I hadn't thought about that. I maintain tho from the previous paragraphs, at best they'd remain Neutral.

Now for Highrock, Skyrim might try and stop trade between them and Cyrodill, but Hammerfell has no reason to. To just stick it to the empire? Both of them need supplies. Hammerfell has no allegience with Skyrim, they have no reason to join forces with Skyrim and attempt to force Highrock to cecede as well and join them. Highrock has the real posistion of power here, they could simply offer more money to one nation over the other for exclusive rights to trade goods provided they can pass through to Cyrodill. A deal like that would leave a bad taste in the mouth of the nation scorned, which wouldn't help relations if their trying to unite.

Admittedly the bit about "the right terms" isnt totally valid, but it was (again) aimed at a different arguemnt. I will say it's not a "if things go perfectly" argument, it's the suggestion that between an Empire with obvious relations needing to be fixed with Hammerfell, and an Independant "for the Nords" Skyrim, the Empire is the likely one to attempt rebuilding relations. It'd the Nordic pride that I don't feel if being accounted for in a lot of these arugments. It's part of what defines them as a people, and I love them for it, but it blindes them. It's something that is definetly a factor often overlooked when people try and argue "well the nords would just call -this nation- for help" They wouldnt. Even Balgruf, a pro Empire Jarl has to be convinced "hey why dont we just let some Legionaires die in place of some of our own men" when discussing the defense of his city. He knew Ulfric was coming for him, and was prepared to lose his hold rather than allow the Empire to help.

The only reason the Thalmor are attempting to cripple Skyrim from within is because of the Civil war. Because with Ulfric allowing open worship of Talos they have to show up and enforce the WGC. It's mentioned several times, no one was stopping people from worshipping Talos until the Civil war started and gave the Thalor the excuse they needed to send enforcers.

The WGC mentions "and the Thalmor may have free reign in the Imperial Provinces, including Skyrim, to enforce the terms of the treaty." Skyrim becoming independant doesnt mean the Thalmor will just give up simply because Skyrim isnt part of the Empire any longer. You only need to look at Hammerfell for that. If Skyrim is released and independant, Cyrodill cant intervene to protect them, just as they couldnt with Hammerfell. As for getting caught between 2 armies, that'd be a BOLD move..one the Empire can't afford to make. When Skyrim is Independant, theres a lot of hate between the 2 nations, and even assuming they could get past that to face a common enemy, Skyrim isnt going to send help to Cryodil to help fight when the Dominion come knocking.(why would they, they just spent years killing imperials to get them out of skyrim.) And that'd just be one battle, the dominion isnt sending the whole army between the two, they're smarter than that. They'd have occupied forces still in Cyrodil, and even if it wasnt that much force, an independant Cyrodil can't face the dominion alone, which they'd have to since they broke the treaty... and who's going to come save them? Hammerfell hates them, Skyrim just got rid of them, Morrowind isnt joing the fight... The Empire is going to stick to obeying the treaty till they have the numbers to fight again. Which they can have if Skyrim just re-enters the fold once more for a bit longer.

I discussed why an embargo wouldnt work out too well, but it seems you fell for the "if things go perfectly" argument as I did.

I honestly can't NOT see it as coming to Skyrim's aid. That WGC hangs over the Empire and has forced them into doing a lot of things they wish they hadn't. The Empire saw it as a means to stop the fighting and rebuild after losing so much. This is where things get murkey, because while the SC say they're also earing up to fight the AD, they don't outright mention sending the fight to the Summerset Isles. It could just as likely mean they Plan to "invade" through Cyrodil, and if that's the case it'd going to greatly depend on the state of the Empire weather or not they fight with or against Skyrim. But if we all agree the AD is the real threat, why divide the forces? Why not keep Skyrim within the Empire, maintain trade, and be guaranteed no hassle travel once it's time for the Second Great War?

Yes it's the worse case Scenario, but it's plausible. I think some of my words are getting mixed here tho, I'm not saying the Empire willingly joins the AD, I'm saying they don't intervene. their hands are tied. I maintain Hammerfell WOULD watch tho... history suggests they've only really ever cared about themselves, much like Skyrim is trying to do now. I admire that Nordic Pride tho, truly. All i mean by all this is, if we agree on one thing, its that the Dominion needs to be stopped... Why end one alliance (the Empire) and risk MAYBE getting a new one (Hammerfell) in its place? You're just as likely to end up with No alliance at all... and if you're just PRO-SKYRIM can you honestly say the Jarls who follow Ulfric are better than the one's who side with the Empire. Because Honestly for me, if the Same ones who side with the Empire instead were chosen to side with Ulfric, I might be on board. To me (opinion again, feel free to ignore) they seem to understand what's in Skyrim's best interests, and it's not just one or two of them I agree with most all of them. They don't sound like fanatics, they sound like they want whats best of Skyrim. Hammerfell has a pretty good reason to form an alliance with an independent skyrim. They hate the thalmor just as much as Ulfric does.