Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-27007772-20140611204941/@comment-26356342-20150616020827

Whoa whoa, and, whoa!  You're starting off with some awfully big assumptions there, because 1) The LDB doesn't have to go with Ralof or Hadvar, 2) There is never a time in which you have to kill Thalmor, named or unnamed, and 3) The LDB is given the option to completely eradicate the Dark Brotherhood. So youre starting 3 points are already wrong. YOUR Dragonborn may have done those things, but your playthrough isn't the "canon history" playthrough. In games such as Oblivion, it was easier to say the main character accomplished EVERYTHING there was to accomplish because there wasnt a real choice in the matter (other than weather or not you wanted to do them) So I will ask where it's stated that the LDB officially sided with Ralof, killed Thalmor, and the Emperor.   ~Doing what the Stormcloaks want, when killing the emperor. The Emperor's death at the hands of the LDB isn't official... recorded history come the next game may stated he was assassinated, which is inevitable however, it will never state it was directly because the dragonborn killed them. ALSO you could be a member of the Dark Brotherhood and still side with the Empire... So it's not like you're doing the Stormcloaks any favors by killing the Emperor, you're infact doing more damage really... Ulfric states they cannot stand against an Empire invasion in full force, they are currently facing 1 legion at the moment. You can't discredit what he says simply because you feel it's bad writing. It's fact. He says it... Even Ulfric knows the Emperor's death in Skyrim would do more damage in the long run, when he's trying to just gain independence.  ~The Emperor's death in Skyrim is the work of the Dark Brotherhood, a faction with no alliances to anyone other than Sithis. While the Empire may blame the Stormcloaks, and vice-versa, ultimately it's a hired hit from a 3rd party. Ulfric is saying if they storm Solitude (at that point in the game) He would be responsible personally for the death of the Emperor's cousin. THAT is what would bring the wrath of the Empire down on them. The fact that it would be Ulfric who personally caused her death.  ~What exactly is the point you're making about the other races? The Dark elves have an argonian problem, and dealing with the red mountain issue, it's keeping them from the great war, I dont see how this is relevant to anything I said... You and Phantasys both mention a great debt to be paid, where is it this debt is being mentioned that High Rock has to pay? all the info I find says High Rock is prosperous and fine. NEVER anything about a debt or bribes. Bosmer getting killed? what? they're working with the Dominion, and So are the Khajit! what is the point of this statement?! The empire sold it's soul for more air before getting crushed? WHAT? they signed a peace treaty to buy some time to prepare for "Great War 2: Even Greater War" they weren't crushed. How is it you got back and fourth on the Empire being weak and crushed, and also claim they could have won the great war had they kept going? What are you talking about?!  ~If you're going to continue the Jesus parallel, I'll make mention in the Bible it states the Romans are part of the reason he was crucified.... and since the Dragonborn has the option to join the Empire/Romans it still doesnt hold up too well. Alduin destroying the world is its own separate thing altogether tho, and doesnt effect the civil war quest, except for the peace talks (if you wait to do the civil war quest) Alduin winning and destroying all of the world ultimately affects even the Thalmor... in the broad sense.... but as far as defeating Alduin, his death doesnt effect which side of the civil war wins.  ~I Like that this part starts with a condescending "did you really write that" followed by a last misunderstanding of how a military hierarchy works. Tullius is 1 of the many generals... he is not THE Empire. Ulfric is referring to "the head" of the Empire occupant forces in Skyrim. So, your proof of the entire empire being corrupt... is one woman... Maven, who's native to Skyrim... Let it also show that while her mafia style of handling business isn't "honorable" She is the major benefactor to the Theives Guild, and Riften's economy and Skyrim's mead supply. It could be argued the previous Jarl (who's a stormcloak supporter) was so inept and terrible at their job they ALLOWED Maven to act the way she does. Her connections to the Empire doesn't reflect the Empire as a whole. Having connections is just how you get rich... that's everyone in Tamriel.... SO... anyone else? or just the one person? The Thalmor letting them? like what? Wheres the proof here? At worst they have to make sure the Empire is keeping up with their treaty... They are in a cold war state... which means neither side can make any drastic moves without setting off the other. The Thalmor are just in a better position as it's THEIR terms being enforced.  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~ I'm going to quote you here since you felt it was necessary to just say "read it again" "Talk and no action, along side a dead empire equalls zero movement. You see that moment of curroption that was over looked is the same reason the empire died, they kept over looking those moments that slowly build up and cause the current events in TESV." <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">This means 1 of 2 things... you either vastly misunderstand the events that lead to the Civil War, or you're confused over which events lead to what. The Great war was being fought... the Imperial Palace and the City were saced. During that time Ulfric was captured and being tortured as a prisoner of war. THIS has nothing to do with the events you're referring to, where the Thalmor start taking people to enforce the Talos Ban. It wasnt until he was let go, and caused the Markarth Incident that really sparked the Civil War towards the start of the Game as we get to it. SO I'll ask that YOU reread that, because what you're saying is the Thalmor taking people interrogate/torture to enforce the Talos ban, is what caused the civil war, before the Thalmor had the authority to enforce the ban.... <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~You keep mentioning the DragonBorn going with Ralof like it's what you HAVE to do... it isnt... maybe YOU didn't.. but we're not discussing what Your Dragonborn or Mine did. Marked his face? How? when? based on what evidence? Where is it stated the Empire, or even the Thalmor mark faces? Sent Thalmor after him? when?! It's at this point I feel like we're arguing over what your DB did as if your decisions were the right ones... Illigal to kill thalmor? It's friggin illegal to kill anyone!! Are you serious?! Start up Skyrim for me right now, fast travel to say... Riverwood... Find the first person, and kill them... Then tell me what happens. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~I brought up imprisonment from the other games to showcase it's stupid to simply say because you were arrested by the Empire, that somehow gives you an excuse to hate them, since we've only ever heard this argument made when talking about Skyrim. In Oblivion's forums, no one ever started a conversation with "screw the Empire for imprisoning me!" It's the dumbest, and simplist argument made... and We've always been prisoners...it's not new..its just how elderscrolls games start. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~No I don't know how many people die per day "bro" could you be a friend and provide me with the solid evidence and statistics that show deaths per day in Skyrim? Also nice job skipping my point... I'll also ask again; Do you truly believe everyday there's an ambush to capture Ulfric, in which a single supposed innocent person is captured and killed? because if not then you'll have to concede my point that it doesn't happen. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Collateral damage is corruption now? Oh man! Someone let Ulfric know then, since he sacs Whiterun and kills a lot of innocent people should you side with the Stormcloaks! <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~You misunderstood my point... -_-; I was saying... Had Ulfric been the one to set up a trap to capture Tullius, and captured the DB also, he wouldn't have spared him/her either. Ulfric would only let Rikke go because they fought together... that isnt Ulfric sympathizing with the Empire... And If you're going to make the point that Ulfric doesnt kill the other Jarls, and use it as a means to say he's somehow compassionate.... remember Tullius does the same thing. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Hadvar not going aginst orders is corruption now too... good to know. You don't seem to know what corruption means... Typically it means you do something sinister for personal gain, usually by working the system and bening the rules to your own will. See Maven for the example... Are you really saying Hadvar and Maven are the same? Had Tullius been truly corrupt he could have said "oh hey you were supposed to die at Helgan, lets clasp him in Irons, and redo that beheading" But you know what? he didn't.. do you know why? because the Empire isnt as bad as you keep thinking it is. You've got this bias view of the Empire you're projecting, and trying to pass it off as fact. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~You still dont provides any evidence other than what I can only assume, things you're making up based on your skewed view of the empire. Overkill of Talos worshipers? Oh like that priest int he middle of Whiterun, yelling at the top of his lungs about Talos? Yeah... the empire really did overkill that guy... and rape? o.o what are you even talking about? evidence please... actual evidence not this nonsense you keep making up. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Do YOU even know what you're trying to say anymore? *sigh* by the Nine... Morrowind fighting with the Argonians has nothing to do with the Great War. Nothing. the Empire and the Thalmor ARE NOT THE SAME! my gods, you stormcloak supporters cant seem to get that through your heads... they are not one faction. If they were, there wouldn't just be Justicars in Skyrim, there would be Thalmor Soldiers. Full real soldiers... The Empire just signed a treaty, they didnt sign an alliance. theres a HUGE difference! do your research before you respond again.... jeez... <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Cicero is talking about the initial attack involved in the first great war! Again do more research... you need to get the timeline of events situated in your head better because you're mixing too much of it together. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~So then... what you're really saying is... first that you misunderstand how a treaty works, and believe the Thalmor OWN the Empire, and that they need to fight their own civil war.. in an attempt to break away from the Thalmor.. DIE in that war... Giving Hammerfell enough time to work out a deal with the LDB (what is this your fanfic?) for an alliance based on nothing but your own whim.. to "purge" the non existant occupation of Thalmor in Hammerfell (reread the second treaty of stos m'kai there are no Thalmor in Hammerfell) Then somehow after 2 years.. the LDB makes an alliance with Cyrodiil (who if based on your logic... would all be dead having LOST to the Thalmor in their own land) and forces the Thalmor to be stretched too thin... even tho they had no where to stretch to... and this all leads to the LDB creating a new Empire... This is INSANE.. you really need to read more about the great war, look at a map, and read up on the Thalmor. You're missing A LOT of information. Elsweyr and Valenwood are WILLING allies to the Thalmor This is what makes up the Dominion. (note, not the Empire) They aren't being forced to help. This isn't an "everyone v Thalmor" fight it's much bigger than that. You also are just assuming the Dragonborn helps and auto wins "because dragonborn" No Hero has ever stayed to help out in the Aftermath so I suggest you remove that from your equations. Because (once again I have to remind you, it's not just YOUR dragonborn we're talking about) If it were MY DB we were discussing, Over half of what you say is rendered moot as Mine sided with the Empire. Did you maybe not know you could just follow Hadvar in the beginning, or kill the Darkbrotherhood? <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~It's ironic (again) that you tell me to research things when you've been just seemingly making things up and claiming it as fact. SO far you have yet to counter any of my points with LORE, SO i'll ask that you do research. which i might add, by definition... someone denying facts presented to them is Denial... If the missing Game data was stated by Bethesda was "no matter what the stormcloaks win" then it doesn't matter what was cut, we're discussing what was presented alongside Lore. Take your time, do some real research, then come back and talk to me...