Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-62.31.43.199-20131118141224/@comment-13446185-20140314033646

Smoking.Chimp wrote:

Yes, but this is meagrely a variation on some pantheistic interpretation of Dwemer motives when it is highly unlikely that the Dwemer shared this perspective given that:

'''It was unknown what religion the Dwemer had, or if they worshipped any gods or not, but it was known that they scorned the Daedra,[33] the Nine Divines and essentially all of the gods, and attempted to defy them with their values of "reason and logic". The Dwemer people believed that they were more powerful than the gods and could acquire powers that could equal or even rival them.[33] [34]' ''

More powerful - not superior. And why strive to become something scorned or despised such as the gods? The idea of becoming god is a meagre theological projection which interprets motives in the wrong worldview (i.e in a worldview not shared by the people whose motives are being analysed). So, it seems obvious that the Dwemer were building something other than a 'god' which a superstitious people could only describe using the elements of their own superstition. Moreover, we have this, which actually makes sense given everything they left behind:

'''The Dwemer were a free-thinking and reclusive Elven clan who lived in Tamriel; mostly in Morrowind during the Merethic Era and the First Era. The Dwemer, in general, were a very advanced and powerful civilization. Dwemer society did not force the use of technology over magic, but the general view of their society was that magic was unimportant and pointless, so much so, that most people were not of the Dwemer civilization believed they were "mockers and profaners of the divine."[45]' ''

The issue they would have had with the gods could have had nothing to do with being "insuperior" as the whole freethinking principle is based on the idea that there is no superior and there is no inferior in the context of entities possessing volition - in that nobody possesses the superiority necessary to have the right over another's thoughts, ergo title to one's own mind is an inalienable right of the individual. The issue that freethinkers would take with powerful beings who confuse might and right is that of inequality. Moreover, righting the wrongs of inequality may well necessitate the quest for sufficient power to overcome the evil whence that inequality comes.

As to Numidium:

"The original power source was the Heart of Lorkhan, whose power the Dwemer had accessed using Kagrenac's Tools: Keening, Sunder, and Wraithguard."

Evididently, the Heart of Lorkhan was little more than a glorified battery for whatever they were building.

Now, the Skeleton Man quote is actually attributed to "Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis" who, based on the text of the quote, is pitching a pretty obvious speculation which is rooted, once again, in the perspective of an ancient pantheistic culture who, for example, might mistake a man in armour for a metal golem (I forget the name of the book, but it's a trick the Dwemer are alleged to have played on the one of the Chimer tribes - possibly to discover whether the Chimer tribe in question would honour a treaty).

The punchline is, don't accept any information as true in any context unless it is underpinned by probative facts which can be verified. :) More powerful - not superior.

Not sure what your trying to say here. Anyways, more powerful and superior are basically synonymous.

And why strive to become something scorned or despised such as the gods?

You don't seem to be getting this. It's not like they hated the idea of a "god", they hated the idea they were below the gods. Numidium was their successful attempt to escape creation, to improve themselves, and prove to the universe that they were greater than the gods.

"Kagrenac and his tonal architects, among them Bthuand Mzahnch, believed they could improve the Dwemer race."

-Yagrum Bagarn

More proof:

"Lord Kagrenac, the foremost arcane philosopher and magecrafter of my era, devised tools to shape mythopoeic forces, intending to transcend the limits of Dwemer mortality"

-Yagrum Bagarn

In TES, mythopoeic forces are the powers mortals have over gods (normally the creation of aspects;ex. Alkosh ≠ Akatosh); This power is created from mortals own relation to the gods (once again pointing to the fact that mortals are pieces of gods). If Kagrenac knew how to wield the powers that can split gods apart then it is almost undoubtful he knew how to put them back togethor.

The issue they would have had with the gods could have had nothing to do with being "insuperior" as the whole freethinking principle is based on the idea that there is no superior and there is no inferior in the context of entities possessing volition

Freethinking is basing thought on logic and reason, I'm not sure what your point is here as this doesn't contradict anything.

Plus I never said the Dwemer viewed themselves as insuperior, the reason why they created Numidium was to prove their superiority

Evididently, the Heart of Lorkhan was little more than a glorified battery for whatever they were building.

A glorified battery with the power to potentially extinguish their entire race or even the entirety of Nirn. We both know the Dwemer were not stupid, they knew what they were doing when they used the Heart.

Let me show you a little quote explaining just what the Numidium is capable of.

"It's not the Brass God that wrecks everything so much as it is all the plane(t)s and timelines that orbit it, singing world-refusals.

''The Surrender of Alinor happened in one hour, but Numidium's siege lasted from the Mythic Era until long into the Fifth. Some Mirror Logicians of the Altmer fight it still in chrysalis shells that phase in and out of Tamrielic Prime, and their brethren know nothing of their purpose unless they stare too long and break their own possipoints."''

-MK posts

Now take heed of the fact that in the seige of Alinor, the Numidium was being powered merely by part of Wulfharth's soul. To put that power in perspective to the Heart of Lorkhan (the Heart of the World) would probably be like comparing a "AA" to a car battery.

It should also be noted that the subsequent Dragonbreaks that occur everytime the Numidium is activated, is almost certainly due to the fact that the Dwemer were returning themselves to the Dawn (Which had no linear time).

...And then there is the whole manner of the Psijic Endeavor possibly being involved as Divayth Fyr believes (Sotha Sil's Last Words), which requires the Heart of Lorkhan.

Now, the Skeleton Man quote is actually attributed to "Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis" 

The fact that this dude is of the Marukhati Selective is itself enough to prove his credibility. Those crazy bastards knew how to create Dragonbreaks and channel the Aurbis directly (seriously, they knew how to freaking manipulate "The Tower" itself), I wouldn't doubt it if the Selectives knew more on the subject of anti-creation than the Dwemer did.

is pitching a pretty obvious speculation

Obvious speculation, where did you get that? He is completely confident in what he is saying, he even says "Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it.", the only reason why he tells the interviewer what he does is because he knows the guy is too stupid to understand that it's true.