Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-95.94.124.138-20130922100323/@comment-13446185-20140717152737

Ifnsman wrote: Oh, I'm well aware that the title "Ysmir" isn't just thrown around to every Dragonborn. That wasn't the point. Few special individuals have been given such a title, and even fewer belong to that name in the Talos Oversoul. The Last Dragonborn is not one of them.

It's hilarious how you assume I don't have an argument. The arrogance is shining through.

Then you have that passage from MK: "Space Gods begat Reman". I hope you noticed 'Gods' is plural, as it does not directly suggest Lorkhan's involvement but many.

Aside from that, you are now later defeating one of your own earlier arguments. YES, I am referring to the fact that neither Reman nor Miraak are Shezarrines on that Lorkhan list. As Lorkhan is also Shezarr, the Last Dragonborn (nor Miraak or Pelinal) are not Shezarrines.

Miraak "can be", but he is also the First Dragonborn. Honestly, Hermaeus Mora has a whole lot more in common with the Adversary due to his role in Skaal myth. 'Oh, I'm well aware that the title "Ysmir" isn't just thrown around to every Dragonborn. That wasn't the point. Few special individuals have been given such a title, and even fewer belong to that name in the Talos Oversoul. The Last Dragonborn is not one of them.'

Only four (before Dovahkiin) have been given the name "Ysmir". The first was said to have been an early incarnate of Pelinal, though whether or not it was Pelinal or another Shezarrine isn't necessarily clear. The Second was Wulfharth, who has the most obvious connection to the title. The third was Talos Stormcrown the mortal (Hjalti-Wulfharth), and the fourth was the god Talos. The Ysmir is not only connected to Lorkhan, but Talos as well, more specifically Wulfharth. Once again you give no backing to your claim.

'It's hilarious how you assume I don't have an argument. The arrogance is shining through.'

It's not arrogance at all, why don't you take a look back at your own argument.

''"The Greybeards naming the Dovahkiin "Ysmir" is not proof enough, I'm sorry.  Not only would Ysmir most likely be the title of another individual entirely, it is just a title granted to the player character.  The Dragonborn is just a Champion of an Aedra, not a Shezarrine." ''

Your only argument here is saying Ysmir isn't enough proof.

''"Same thing with giving the character the Stormcrown title.  He/She is still not the same Talos, nor is there any previous connection.  Even without this, it should be pretty obvious that the Last Dragonborn (more accurate title) is neither Talos/Tiber Septim the man nor Talos the god." ''

Here you literally have no argument, you are just saying the Dovahkiin isn't Talos because he/she isn't Talos.

''Oh, I'm well aware that the title "Ysmir" isn't just thrown around to every Dragonborn. That wasn't the point. Few special individuals have been given such a title, and even fewer belong to that name in the Talos Oversoul. The Last Dragonborn is not one of them.''

You don't even back your claim here, you just say 'nope the Dragonborn isn't one of them'.

'Then you have that passage from MK: "Space Gods begat Reman". I hope you noticed 'Gods' is plural, as it does not directly suggest Lorkhan's involvement but many.'

Reman was born when Hrol came across Alessia (role of Lorkhan and Akatosh respectively), the "space gods" is probably referring to his seventeen knights which are the spokes of the wheel. Reman's own birth is said to represent the Aurbis.

'Aside from that, you are now later defeating one of your own earlier arguments. YES, I am referring to the fact that neither Reman nor Miraak are Shezarrines on that Lorkhan list. As Lorkhan is also Shezarr, the Last Dragonborn (nor Miraak or Pelinal) are not Shezarrines. '

Pelinal, not a Shezarrine, are you serious! He is the original Shezarrine, the term Shezarrine comes from the Songs of Pelinal. Miraak's connection to Lorkhan aren't very apparent but denying Pelinal as a Shezarrine is like denying Miraak was a Dragonborn.

'Miraak "can be", but he is also the First Dragonborn. Honestly, Hermaeus Mora has a whole lot more in common with the Adversary due to his role in Skaal myth. '

And that automatically removes Miraaks connection?

Ifnsman wrote: "Different Ideas of the Same God". Here you agree with my point again.

By Mantling Lorkhan, Talos is now a "Tower" holding up all of existence (we all know this). As Shor is Lorkhan in a way (and just like Lorkhan; is "Missing") Talos would also be usurping/mantling Shor. '"Different Ideas of the Same God". Here you agree with my point again. '

BECAUSE THEY ARE THE SAME GOD JUST SEPERATE IDEAS OF THAT GOD THAT SPLIT DURING THE FRACTURING OF THE EHLNOFEY WITH THE CREATION OF SEPERATE RACES, SAYING LORKHAN ANDSHOR ARE THE SAME THING IS LIKE SAYING THE TERMS HUMAN AND NORD ARE SYNONYMOUS.

Sorry for the cap locks I just feel like it is very important that this point gets across to you.

'''By Mantling Lorkhan, Talos is now a "Tower" holding up all of existence (we all know this). As Shor is Lorkhan in a way (and just like Lorkhan; is "Missing") Talos would also be usurping/mantling Shor. '''

But Talos did not take the role of Shor he took the role of Lorkhan.

Ifnsman wrote: (Referring to the heroes in Sovngarde): "Lol, wow dude, you really are just making stuff up.  This is just ridiculous."^Elaborate. In what way do the ancient Atmoran/Nord Heroes residing in Sovngarde (obviously not referring to Toryyg or any Imperials/Stormcloaks) in the Hall of Valor not recognize the God ruling Sovngarde as "Shor"?

Now this I've got to hear. :3  How can you disprove that those who already reside there (including Tsun) acknowledge Shor? Because they call him by name -_-

You don't hear people ever calling Talos Lorkhan. Your argument has no basis other than ridiculous speculation.

And what is this supposed to mean --> (obviously not referring to Toryyg or any Imperials/Stormcloaks) Ifnsman wrote: Lorkhan's gone Missing from Nirn long before his own Heart, though it did contain divine essence of his that corrupted Dagoth Ur and gave the Tribunal their god-like powers.

''"Shor's high seat stands empty; his mien is too bright for mortal eyes." ''None of the others can see him. Do they even really know if he's there? Do any of the Heroes have a sense of time any longer? (Do they know how long it's been since last Shor resided in his own realm?)

Obviously, the dead Heroes in Sovngarde are also mortal, so they can not see him either, if the mien explanation is to be believed. Which is exactly why we shouldn't even be arguing over this, there is very little info revolving Shor's absence.