Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150910123718

College Mage: Ferris wrote: I'd believe this point if Ulfric was only ever JUST pro Talos, he's not tho, he's very anti-empire. Even during Torygg's moot he was yelling about needing to secede. He fought in the great war and felt betrayed by the Empire, I get it. but lets not pretend Ulfric has some sort of moral high ground here where he was just looking out for people's rights to religious freedoms. This was a political move.

But how do you know for sure? Uflric, post-Markarth Incident, is very anti-Empire, yes. But pre-Markarth Incident, we don't really know. There is no real evidence of Ulfric hating/still supporting the Empire at that time. The only thing we know for certain is that he reclaimed Markarth to create a Talos sanctuary. Maybe he had ulterior motives. Or maybe not. The Empire focused very little or nothing on the Reach and didn't even know that the Reach was reclaimed until a little later. So I doubt that Ulfric did this to get the Empires attention. And the whole thing about him talking about Skyrim seceding was AFTER the Markarth Incident. It had to be, since only Jarls attend moots and Ulfric didn't become Jarl until after he was released from prison.

You may not see it as illegal, but that's what it was plain and simple. under Imperial law, since they owned the land, when they could finally afford to send the soldiers to "reclaim" the hold, capitol, Ulfric is bound by law to release it to them, not try and make demands. the fact he said "you cannot enter unless..." made it illegal. There shouldn't have been any haggling, it's an Imperial territory and imperial soldiers are there now to gain control of the situation. NOW is it right for them to come and swoop in after it was already "handled" by Ulfric? no, probably not, but legally they are within the right. The "owner of the hold" is the Empire. The whole province is theirs, the people follow Imperial law. If, say, Jarl Maven asks Balgruuf for help dealing with bandits in her city. He sends his troops, they kill the bandits and then Balgruuf decides he's going to "root out" all the "evil" within Riften, so his troops stay. Maven then uses her connections within the Empire to have Legionaries show up to maintain Imperial order. If Balgruuf turns them away at the gate, he has essentially invaded and captured the hold under the pretext of helping. His intentions are well and good, and he's got a good cause, but denying access to the Empire means it's a crime. Like I said it'd be the same if it were bandits, if the Jarl of Markarth had hired real bandits to fight the reachmen, and they refused entry to the city unless demands were met, it's just as illegal.

Very well, I guess you are correct, if we look at this situation that way. I dunno, I imagined Jarls had more influence than that over their Holds. Seems like Jarls are pretty much just puppets of the Empire then. But in that case, then the Jarl of Markarth also committed a crime? He made a deal with Ulfric behind the back of the Empire(his superior)? It would be the same if the Jarl contracted bandits to reclaim Markarth in exchange for 10% of the Reach's silver. And then the bandits succeeded and suddenly the Empire comes back and says "That silver belongs to the Empire. We didn't agree, so you cant have it." I see your point, but then the whole Markarth Incident could be blamed on Hrolfdir(or Igmund, it is rather unclear who was Jarl at that time, but from I gathered, it seems more likely to have been Hrolfdir). Ulfric only did what was arranged in his contract. But the contract itself was illegal. What a mess... :(

It was a little after 1 year this all took place, they JUST signed the peace treaty, and the Emperor has NO way of knowing for sure how strong the enemy is. WE know from information produced AFTER the events that the Dominion may not have been able to fight. But even the lore doesn't state outright they were even. The Emperor can only make decisions based on the given information he had on hand, he just signed a peace treaty, the Imperial capitol was sacked, the land hadn't even healed from the scars of battle, but you suggest they call out the dominion's bluff? That's reckless. it endangers the innocent people of both Cyrodiil and Skyrim, and for what? to appease a single outspoken man with a militia?

Indeed. We have two scenarios, one where the Great War between the Dominion and the Empire could possibly take a quick continuation with whatever forces they can muster. Or an internal, albeit smaller, war within the Empire. You can choose between killing your enemies or killing your own allies. Like you said, the Civil War has resulted in a stop in the Empires recovery while the Dominion just sit and watch. Bloodshed could no have been avoided. But what would have been better, risk a war with your enemy or a guaranteed war with your allies? Or the third option: the Emperor could have seceded Skyrim to end all conflict and left it at that. Which they didn't.

But what business are they dictating? We dont have any evidence the Dominion is making any decisions for the Empire. The only things they do is enforce the treaty, specifically the Talos ban. They havn't stopped any deals, they don't sit in on council meetings, Even in season unending, when they try and sit in on the cease fire terms (which they would have a right to) you can send them away. The Empire (and by extension Skyrim) is not ready for another War, and if the Thalmor happen to think the Empire isnt strong enough to fight back yet, then so be it, let them believe they still have the power. overconfidence cost them the huge numbers of troops during the great War, lets keep that trend going. No one at present is ready for War but the Dominion is just the ones willing to "poke the bear" they want the Empire to strike first, so long as the Empire doesnt play their game they can continue to grow in strength and be ready for when the Dominion gets tired of playing and actually acts. (preferably after they believe they're so superior it'll be easy) Well… what I said there was just an example IF the Thalmor would make threats and demands to the Empire. And when I said that I was referring specifically the Talos ban, which they obviously are dictating. But I can bring up more instances. You mentioned the peace council at High Hrothgar. A place where the Thalmor, who claim to have no interest in the internal politics of Skyrim, still showed up at the meeting. If the Thalmor needs to attend such “meaningless meetings”, then what do you think they do when the Empire makes bigger negotiations elsewhere? They probably(but not for sure) have a Thalmor representative whenever they would make any kind of negotiations, just to make sure they don’t overstep the boundaries of the WGC. And how can they refuse? All the Dominion has to do is threaten with conflict and the Empire bends. Another thing the Thalmor can do to dictate things to the Empire, is forcing high ranking Imperial officers to attend their parties. Granted, it’s a bit frivolous, but even Tullius admits that they are doing that to make the Empire look bad and show that they have them at their call.

Based on what tho? personal opinion of the Empire? They've never aided the Thalmor in terms of battle. When they fought Hammerfell, The Empire didnt aid the dominion. If Skyrim is fighting the Dominion, it means either the Empire fell, and lost so badly that the dominion pushed into Skyrim, which would also mean the Empire not only can't help the dominion, they cant help anyone. Or If the Empire still has troops, the dominion placed themselves between 2 armies, the worst possible position for them to be in. If the Empire wins the Civil War in Skyrim, it doesn't then gain the Stormcloaks as part of its army, and vice versa for the Stormcloaks. Theres no scenario that ends with the Empire fighting along side the Dominion. AT PRESENT if the Dominion attacked Skyrim the Empire would HAVE to fight with the Stormcloaks actually, since Skyrim is still technically a province of the Empire, attacking Skyrim now even during a civil war would mean invading the Empire and instigating a war. I will reiterate again that the seceding of Hammerfell was different than from whats going on in Skyrim. They didn’t need to help the Thalmor, because they already renounced the province from the Empire. That way the Empire had no obligations enforce anything on the province and making it the Domnions own problem. Had the Empire decided to keep Hammerfell in the Empire, they would be forced to make the Redguards accept the terms of the WCG(which would mean lots of territory loss to the Dominion). If they Redguards still objected, it would turn into a Civil War in Hammerfell, just like the one in Skyrim. Also, I didn’t mention anything about them fighting WITH the Dominion. I just said that if the Thalmor demanded some kind of action from the Empire, they might comply with their demand. The Thalmor are like the police officers of the Talos ban. The Empire, even if they might not enforce the treaty themselves, is obliged to give free passage to them. But if a group of criminals(Uflric and his militia) is hindering them to do their job in a part of the Empire, it will ultimately be the Empire’s fault. And if the Empire would allow this activity in the Empire, it would violate the terms of the WGC. It would be just like if a group of police officers wants to investigate a company building, but aren’t allowed access due to some disgruntled employees. The police will complain to the company that their employees aren’t letting them do their job, which they are obliged to do. Hopefully this will clarify my point better.

By that they are referring to the treaty. The treaty signed made it Imperial Law to ban all worship of Talos. Due to incidents like the markarth incident, where the Empire is shown outright disregarding the terms, the Justicars were brought in (note, not soldiers) to enforce the law. Like any law it can be enforced based on the officer. If I'm speeding on the highway, a law officer can decide to let me off with a warning. I was breaking the law clearly, he has evidence and everything, but decides to warn me about speeding instead. Same with the Empire, he have no evidence saying they were doing as the Thalmor do, and ripping people from their homes at night, raiding Talos Shrines and imprisoning people. There are Imperial troops everywhere, they could have done that easily if they wanted to. Hell even the High King of Skyrim secretly still worshipped Talos. It's the Thalmor who are enforcing the Ban, all the Empire did was remove some shrines from "official" churches, and called it "good enough". I think the Justiciars were brought in even before the Markarth Incident, based on dialogue from Alvor and Gerdur. On a smaller scale, but they were still there. Meaning people were still being dragged off. And they have soldiers there too. The Thalmor in the Embassy and in Markarth are refered as "Thalmor Soldiers". As for your argument of the Empire not enforcing the Talos ban at all, here is a bit of dialogue I found: "Now that the Imperial blight has poisoned Riften, the worship of Talos is strictly forbidden by the terms of the White-Gold Concordat. They can defile our shrine, they can arrest our people and they can silence our voices, but the Empire will never destroy our spirit. As long as we keep Talos in our heart, his legacy will never die." - Nura Snow-Shod. Now, I know the Snow-Shods are Stormcloak extremists, but I find it weird that she would refer "they" to be the Empire, if the Thalmor are the only ones exclusivly doing it. Just something to think about...

Well if by "kept the Empire together" you mean "didnt lose other provinces" then I guess, kinda that's true. They mostly had either nothing happening, reigning in peace, or they had really really bad civil wars. Tho I need to go back and check if any of them lost any territories during their time as Emperor. Let me help you with that. I know that the Empire lost control of Valenwood and Hammerfell from 3E 249 to 3E 267, by the Camoran Usurper. He was defeated by the combined naval forces of different High Rock kingdoms. There was also a Civil War caused by Potema called The War of the Red Diamond, where Skyrim and High Rock was overtaken by her forces. It took several years for the Empire to defeat her. In the case with the Camoran Usurper, from what I read, the destruction of the forces of the Usurper had little or nothing to do with the Empire. It was only High Rock who was able to defeat Camoran. This could serve as an example that even single provinces, who fights alone, can overcome greater threats, despite the odds. I’m not saying that they need or should fight alone, but I don’t think Skyrim will be doomed if they secede.

Theres no way they could go from depression to invasion (like Ulfric likes to frequently mention). Skyrim has great Warriors, but a great warrior without supplies and backup, and equipment means little on the battlefield, especially against people such as the Dominion. Now just isnt the time for Skyrim to go independent. That all depends on what you mean by supplies. Skyrim has the resources to craft their own weapons and armor, along with building their own siege machines and even ships. Their biggest problem would be food. But food production can be increased, by expanding their farming and hunting. Skyrim didn’t have need for it when they were still under the Empire. But it doesn’t mean that they can’t do it at all. It will be very difficult, of course. But such is the price for independence. Also, one thing I didn’t consider before; will High Rock stay by the Empire if they lose Skyrim? Because it means High Rock will be the only province left in the Empire, aside from Cyrodiil. Cyrodiil, losing more territory, wealth and manpower, will put too much pressure on the Bretons and they will be forced to renounce their allegiance with the Empire. Not to mention, if the Empire forbids trading opportunities with Skyrim, it will hurt the economy of High Rock. It will just not be beneficial if they have to support Cyrodiil all by themselves. When Ulfric asks Galmar about “news from High Rock”, Galmar responds: “not a peep”. It means they have not said yes… but also not no. It could be that they are biding their time to see if they Empire is going to fall apart and bail, or that they might bounce back and make it worth to say within the Empire. I know I am speculating WAY too much, but it is an intresting thought to entertain.

Skyrim can only fall to the Thalmor if the Thalmor have taken Cyrodiil, in which case they've already won. As you said there isnt really anywhere else to retreat to. At present, Hammerfell is mad at the Empire, and is bitter towards them, and if Ulfric wins, he's not going to then go and save the Empire, he would rather fight the dominion head on. And with Skyrim needing to recover from the civil war and impending depression, they've severely weakened, even if Cyrodiil puts up the best fight ever, If the Dominion takes Cyrodiil, Skyrim wont have enough time to recover on its own. IF Skyrim were to stay with the Empire, the troops may not even get to Skyrims borders, the fighting could be contain within Cyrodiil, as it was before during the first great war. So you think. Or maybe so the Thalmor WANTS you to think. The Dominion only got so far in the first Great War was because they took the Empire by surprise. Now that the Empire is more aware of their threats, the Dominions surprise attacks will be less effective. They may anticipate that all of the Empires strength will be focused on Cyrodiil, and the other provinces are pretty much helpless against any invading force. Meanwhile, the Dominion could send their naval fleet, maybe with aid of invisibility or camouflage spells, to secretly sail around Tamriel and attack Skyrim and High Rock. Without any supporting troops, the provinces will fall. Only Cyrodiil and Hammerfell will be left. Focusing troops on one single location give a huge defensive advantage in a direct assault, but leaves you incredibly vulnerable for flanking attacks. Which approach do you think would appeal to the Thalmor? I would say it is worth weakening your own defense a bit, just to be sure that your enemy don’t overwhelm you from the back. And even if Cyrodiil falls, it would severely weaken the Dominions army to the point that they must halt their rampage. Then the surrounding provinces can launch a counter attack to drive out the Dominion and, maybe, take their combined forces to the Dominion.