Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-27007772-20140611204941/@comment-26356342-20150528064105

They've already dishonored themselves beyond redemption by denying TALOS. Tell me...when was the last time in the Elder Scrolls world that denying your patron god and scorning him ended well? The empire publicly denounced and sold out their god, divine providence would not be in their favor. "The rot runs deep in the empire. Some days it makes me want to join the Stormcloaks"-General Tullius. Even the empire's chief asskisser sent to oppress Skyrim admits that the empire is corrupt.

If you think there's no hard feelings between the Empire and Morrowind then you're even more delusional than I thought. If you speak to Adril Arano then you'd understand the empire's name with the Dunmer is mud right about now, they clearly speak of the empire as oppressors and the Hlaalu clan as traitors that sold them out.

High Rock is home to merchants primarily...I doubt they're happy with the imperial debt and taxes draining them, and once Skyrim is liberated it'll cut off the Empire from High Rock and the Bretons will take that chance to throw off the dead weight.

So Imperial position on winning back hammerfell is to sell out Skyrim like they tried to do Hammerfell? That's sleazy and disgusting...though apropriate considering sleazy and disgusting represents the empire perfectly.

The empire has a legion stationed in Skyrim to force imperial interests, that legion does not represent the will of Skyrim's people. The Stormcloaks are a completely volunteer army with each and every soldier being a willing recruit. The majority of Skyrim's people support the Stormcloaks as the legion consists of both volunteers and conscripted soldiers brought there from Cyrodil while the Stormcloaks are just as numerous but are completely made up from volunteers.

The Empire is clearly showing all the symptoms of a nation in its deathbed. TALOS predicted this two games ago and it's about to come true. Last I checked it's been Akatosh's divine intervention that's been saving everyone not Talos. Furthermore, as previously stated, When you lose a war, you dont get to dictate the terms of surrender. Banning the worship of Talos was part of that deal... What is it you expected the Empire to do exactly? Your arguments are not pro Stormcloack, they're just anti-Empire which doesnt go anywhere. If you had some substance to your claims, it'd be a better discussion.I'll also add what everyone conveniently forgets... OPEN worship was banned, but not enforced, and wasnt enforced until Ulfric demanded open worship AND held a City hostage till he got his way FORCING the Empire and by extension The Thalmor to enforce the ban.

Your quote of Tullius is inaccurate and out of context AND you used the wrong one. Let me first say, the quote you SHOULD be rallying behind is   "Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true."

THAT could be used to say he agree's with Ulfric, Personally I feel that the context he's trying to convey is that Ulfric isn't wrong about how the Empire has been handled recently, However it's too late now. But it is up to you, what you make of it. The Quote you're trying to refer to is "I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks."

Which in context, he's clearly being sarcastic, and is really commenting on how much he hates the AD.Also; He never mentions a "rot". All of this just serves to prove my point the Empire isn't what you say it is. Tulius sympathizes several times with Ulfric's intentions, but can't condone the actions he's taking. At the very least get your facts correct before calling ME the delusional one, when you have yet to provide any solid evidence of the "Corruption" within the empire, or the "nobles in the dominion's payroll" While I on the other hand am bringing facts and discussion.

On Morrowind, yes, as ackowledged above, They're angry at the lack of

On Morrowind; Let's talk about Adril then shall we? First off I dont believe we should be pointing to a single individual and using their opinion as a fact, otherwise I could point to Sybille Stentor and say Ulfric Murdered the High King in cold blood. But to the point you're trying to make, that because he says "The Empire released it's grasp on Morrowind" and him trash talking House Hlaalu for being given power just from having ties to the Empire, somehow that means ALL dunmer are angry at the Empire, I'm not buying it. You can't take one phrase, one person said and run with it. Morrowind was faced with some hard times. The oblivion Crisis then the Red Mountain, and the Argonians going to war with them. It was bad timing, but the Empire didnt just abandon them, they had troops pulled going as far back as the oblivion crisis. No one blames the Argonians for choosing to war with Morrowind, everyone just blames the Empire for not doing anything, when it wasnt even in a posistion to do anything.

Where is it stated The Empire has a debt that High Rock is stuck with? There was gold paid during the signing of the white-gold concordat, but I dont remember hearing.reading about crippling debt. Since I have no info and can't find any I can't say anymore on that... I will speak once again that High Rock, has the upper hand when dealing with the other nations. Even if in the best case scenario, the Nords attain independance and try to strong arm in High Rock by cutting them off, guess what? They can go through Hammerfell. Now I know what you're thinking "Not if Hammerfell sides with the Nords!" but you'd be wrong their too(ignoring the fact theres no way they'd be working together on that). Being a Merchant headquarters, it's just as easy for High Rock to cut both of them off of Supplies until terms could be met. Skyrim having faced a civil war is going to need supplies, especially if they want to then fight the Dominion. The Bretons of High Rock above all else love their gold, and you now have 3 nations (Hammerfell, Skyrim, and Cyrodill) all needing aid. Why settle for just 1 or 2? They all need trade to flow, and cant afford High Rock turning them away. I will ask again where you get your facts that High Rock sees the Empire as dead weight? Where is this opinion coming from?

My suggestion for winning back Hammerfell, was to use the land SKYRIM STOLE FROM THEM as a bargaining. I had to put it in caps this time as you seemed to ignore that fact. Skyrim took those lands... That very well could be the defining reason why the Redguards dont want help from Skyrim, or having Nords in Hammerfell. But no, it's totally The Empire who's the disgusting ones here..

So wait... The Empire...with an Army that cares about the Empire, is somehow less honorable, then the Stormcloaks... with an army that cares about JUST Skyrim? Their both armies with their own interests at heart.... AND represent the WILL of Skyrim's people? The whole place is pretty divided evenly at the start of the game, So I'd say the WILL of Skyrim's people is not only well represented, it's also divided (which is why they're in civil war...) Technically the legionaires are also volunteers.. the Empire doesnt just go around forcing people to join the military. I get the point you're trying to make, that because the Stormcloaks are native to Skyrim, and have decided to take up arms, that somehow gives them the moral highground. But that doesnt mean their better then the Legionaires who've been living within Skyrim since birth, and are proud of BOTH Skyrim and the Empire.

Talos/Wulf's words are ambiguous, and he never directly says "The Empire is falling" he said it's gotten old, and that it might be time for change."time for change" is so vaguehe might as well said " The sun grows dark, but lo! Here comes the dawn!'"  Given the time period Morrowind was set in, he could have just as easily been referring to the "old" empire, the one where 1 emperor owned 9 providences. "Change" for the Empire could just as well mean a new Dragonborn taking over the Empire that would fit the part where he said "something young and new" if we're going to go quoting him. Side note here as well... a nation in it's deathbed? c'mon... Cyrodill isn't as bad as say Morrowind, who had to change where it's capitol is because things were so bad.

Try and see the bigger picture here, past the blind hatred. to quote imperial soldiers; ''"What the rebels like to forget, is that the Empire is what's keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim." ''At first, when I first started playing Skyrim I didnt understand what they meant, since the Thalmor are there in Skyrim, until I dived into the lore. What they're saying is an Independant Skyrim is inviting the Dominion to invade. The White-Gold Concordat lets them enter Skyrim without issue, and allows them to enforce it, but it doesnt give them free reign to just start sacing villages. If you think The Empire, or Hammerfell, or Morrowind is going to step in and help, you're mistaken. An Empire sided Skyrim can at the bery least be given time to heal.