Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-27007772-20140611204941/@comment-26356342-20150615210057

I will again mention how it's not good to end an argument with a blanket statement such as "Saying other wise would be complete denial." while also denying all other facts presented, and saying things like "Like i said they are no different than the Elves. The empire is cursed with evil and weakness by their own fault." with no supporting evidence.



 You're  unfortunately falling for the common trap a lot of Stormcloak supports fall for, in that you're just arguing Anti-Empire points, rather then Pro-Stormcloak ones.



 * " As stated how could he keep a kingdom if he can't defend it. Ever think the Thalmore would go easy on him when they are trying to taking over Nirn. I think not."



I liked this point. I didn't take Sybille's information at face value, even as an Empire supporter, as she's bias, and raise Torygg, so of course she would only speak highly of him. Taken with a grain of salt, we can at least confirm Torygg was a reasonable man and king. Your point however, as-to asking how he could have kept his kingdom if he couldn't defend it, could also be used on Ulfric. Ulfric even says he knows Skyrim could not stand an all-out invasion from the Empire. (Despite being completely opposed to the Empire, Ulfric will refuse to kill the Emperor during his visit to Solitude. If you question him about this he will tell you that"We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now.") If the Empire is as weak and dead as you believe, and Ulfric claims he could not win that fight, what chance does he have against the Dominion? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.



* "The second choice is the result of lack of faith and trust in ones self and the ones that provide.

''General Tullius is a perfect example. The fool doesn't even think Sovngard is real. You know what that means, he doesn't think Shor is real even though shor has a place in...sigh you get the point. They were bound to be beating to death."''



There is some inaccuracy here. There was no lack of faith and trust in their armies... there was their army telling them "we cannot fight another battle right now" plain and simple. The Emperor didn't just assume they couldn't continue the fight and signed the treaty, his generals told him they couldn't keep fighting, on top of the fact they just barely won back their home city, after it was saced. There's more at play then just the men being tired, soldiers need food, supplies, weapons, everything needed to be replenished. It was a major battle that took it's toll on both sides, and afterword they could not continue to fight so they signed a peace agreement to stall for time. Had that peace agreement not been signed, the Hammerfell forces could have come in and trampled the weakened Empire forces. The fact that the WGC was signed, is what kept the remaining Dominion forces occupied with trying to secure Hammerfell. While Hammerfell only won because the Empire weakened the Dominion so much, AND left Elite troops in Hammerfell prior to signing, AND the deadly home-field advantage the Redgards had, AND the fact the Redgards put their Civil War on hold and fought together. (We could learn from that gesture...) IF Hammerfell was some Shining example that the WGC wasn't necessary, the White Gold Tower wouldn't have been lost in the first place.

 To your comments on General Tullius, I will simply say General Tullius does not represent the Empire's overall feelings towards the Nords. If you're willing to believe lack of Faith in Shor somehow means they were bound to fail, I will point out other provinces don't believe in Shor either, and it doesn't make them any less right or wrong on any given situation.



''* "Thats a bad guess. Talos (Jesus parallel- only the dragonborn-son of Akatosh) after he was left was placed there as a test for humans to identify someone trying to destroy Nirn liturally...." ''



<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">Facts? While I can agree to SOME similarities to Jesus and the Dragonborn, they are few and far between. I don't recall someone being born with the holy spirit every few centuries to shout down non-believers... That aside, there's no in-game evidence that suggests the Dragonborn is here to test Humanity, however we do have legends that speak of the Dragonborn being the "counter" to the end of days brought about by Alduin. Which has nothing to do with the choice between stomrcloak and imperial really...

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">''* "Talk and no action, along side a dead empire equalls zero movement. You see that moment of curroption that was over looked is the same reason the empire died, they kept over looking those moments that slowly build up and cause the current events in TESV. The player shouldn't have even gotten the option to side with the empire, they should have a bounty placed on there head even though they haven't done anything. What you should have said was Hadvar could have easily told Tullius about the person on the list. (That action showed that they were no different from Thalmore.) Guess what, other situations like what the dragonborn was in happens every other day in the current empire. You do realize those ADD UP to thousands murdered right? Alongside that with the thalmore murders. Hundreds of thousands of peps dead. "''

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">I needed to grab the whole paragraph on this one... as it's so rife with inaccuracies... I felt the need to include the whole thing to address each one.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">~Talk and no action? where is the evidence of this? While i agree we don't SEE the action i will point out, were in another province... and our only real interaction is with a single legion and their general. That's a very limited view on the inner-workings of the Empire. and what corruption? I've seen a few people throw around the word "corruption" without any evidence... I'll restate a point I made earlier, the closest you get to the "corruption" is the vie for power that goes on, but the same could be said of Ulfric.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">~The events you're talking about and the events that lead to the civil war are vastly different, and to top that off, the underlining cause of the civil war was Ulfric being convinced he caused the fall of the white gold tower, and then being released into the world to cause trouble. NOT from anything the Empire did directly in Skyrim.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">~The empire isn't dead... at the very least you could show some respect and say it's a shadow of its former glory, but it is far from dead.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">Shouldn't have gotten the option to side with the empire....? what? why not? In Oblivion should there have been a bounty on your head? you escaped from prison, and were the last person to see the emperor alive... In Morrowind should there have been a bounty? Let's also ignore for a moment your name wasn't even on the list of people to behead... that list would have been burned and lost when the dragon attacked. And even all THAT aside, Hadvar doesn't seem to check in till you've picked a side.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">~So...you're saying... everyday there's an ambush of Stormcloak soldiers.. in which, a single innocent person is caught in the middle of... and executed? No... I'm sorry but no... The Empire had set up a trap to capture the LEADER of a rebellion, it was only supposed to be Stormcloak soldiers there. and it WORKED! They had him and his men, anyone else caught in the same trap is what's known as collateral damage. Theres no way even Ulfric himself would have let a single person go, had his trap captured Tullius. What's one "innocent" life weighed against the possibility the Dragonborn was a new recruit of the Stormcloaks, or some advisor, or spy...The risk wasn't worth it. I bet had they let you go everyone would be complaining the Empire is too laxed on prisoners.... ALSO since we don't know our own character's background... there really isn't any way for us to say they're totally innocent. They were caught crossing the border, did they murder someone in Cyrodiil and needed to leave the country? who knows...

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">~Thousands murdered? evidence please... where are you getting deathtoll numbers in the thousands that showcase the empire directly killing innocent people? This is just your opinion of the situation at hand and you shouldn't be stating it as fact.

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">* "Wrong, people are being KILLED off by the thousands with the thalmore everywhere. You don't think staying quite kills, hmm? These murders and the thalmore raiding and turtoring both by the empire and the Domionion would agro people, wouldn't they? Less soilders, less commoners, nobles, and in general HUMANS. Yeah the humans the Thalmore want to get out of the way to reck Nirn."

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">I will again request evidence of these numbers, because as you yourself said, if the death toll really was in the thousands, it would spark a lot of Agro... Furthermore, the Dominion and the Empire are in a cold war state, with neither side wanting to disrupt the peace, and killing thousands without cause would end that peace. Also tho, you're speaking as if the Thalmor and the Empire are one-in-the-same, they are not. They are 2 very different and very opposing forces.

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">* "Have you also read about the repeat wars and raids in cyrodill, they are recked down there (these ahppen almost everyday). The place is in rubles. The last places are holding it's own are skryim, hammerfell and the Argoinans Home land. " 

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">I have not read this, could you show me what/where is states this?

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">* "um no. Like i said they are no different than the Elves. The empire is cursed with evil and weakness by their own fault. 

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">All that needs to happen is cyrodill gets their own rebellion going strong, hammerfell needs to get themselves thoughter and alongside that skyrim needs to start preparing to join up partys."

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">Wait... What? so you agree we all need to work together... but you're also saying the Empire is no different from the elves (which they're very different...) So you see the need for the forces to all join together but you think the Empire alone can just lose Skyrim, and still be ok with fighting the dominion with them? By that logic, Hammerfell would be totally cool with rejoining the Empire... (Which we all know isn't going to happen anytime soon.) Your idea for ending the Dominion is... Skyrim becomes independent, while the Empire loses forces there. Then...somehow... the "weak" and "corrupt" Empire, straightens out it's own problems on their homefield... then like best buddies, Skyrim, Cyrodiil, and Hammerfell just go and wreck the Dominion? HOW does any of that make sense? The elves are weakened somewhat yes, but they are still a force to be reckoned with, and not to mention they have the wood elves AND the Khajit to call on as well! it's not just everyone vs Summerset Isles!

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">* "By the way no matter what the Creation kit ,the darkbrotherhood, the repeated bounty on the ldb head for killing all these thalmore (named or unamed), the empire wanting to cut off his head for no reason and him escaping helgen gives him more than enough reasons to fully leave the empire sides. Saying other wise would be complete denial."

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">This is the straw that broke the camel's back I'm afraid... I'll say again... the creation kit is just code used to make the game run correctly, it in no way defines anything set in the Lore. The darkbrotherhood trying to kill you means the empire MUST have called them? c'mon... ignoring the fact theres NO evidence that would support that claim, I'll also point out the only known person from the Empire who was able to contact the Dark brotherhood, did so to put a hit on the Emperor... not the dragonborn. Since Mirrak's men tried to kill you I suppose that means he secretly works for the Stormcloaks? (of course not! because that doesn't make sense!) The bounty for killing Thalmor? You mean like the bounty you get when you kill... anyone..? The Empire wanting the protagonist dead is nothing new... and as previously mentioned, he was caught in a trap ment to capture Stormcloaks... sucks that it happened but it is what it is. It doesnt prove the Empire's "corruption" or "rot" it just proves their Thorough when it comes to ending a rebellion. You should also note, even if you tell Tullius you were there to be beheaded, he STILL lets you join! So obviously it wasn't even his concern, it was the ONE captain who refused to listen to a lower-ranked soldier saying the protagonist wasn't on the list.