Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26356342-20150826044646

S&#039;Dalaar the Snowcat wrote: Firstly, I wouldn't say Ulfric had the city "under hostage". That's a bit exaggerating it. Secondly, like I mentioned before, the Empire could easily have negotiated with Ulfric for some kind of agreement. After all, Uflric's hatred against the Empire were solidified after the Markarth Incident. Maybe a different compensation or letting Ulfric know about their plans regarding the Thalmor and keeping him informed. That way the Empire could have showed Ulfric that they weren't Thalmor puppets. What did they do instead? They took the cheap way out by accepting his "terms" and very quickly backstabbing him without thinking twice about the possible consequences. They knew Ulfric was a respected figure and offending him could have caused possible conflict among the Jarls of Skyrim(and it did). Thing is that, the Empire don't want war with the Dominion unless its on their terms. So they will do whatever it takes to hold the peace with the Empire and the Dominion. Let's take your argument and say that Ulfric attacked the Thalmor Embassy, which would be an invasion of Thalmor territory. The angered Thalmor would take it up with the Empire and demand some form of action. The Empire being scared of a new war so soon after the previous war; they would bow their head, apologize, possibly pay some kind of compensation (draining the Empires pockets even more or maybe even lose more land). Then the Empire needs to restore relations with the Dominion by either stopping Ulfric or releasing their rule of Skyrim(and thus losing another source of wealth and manpower). What do you think would be the more profitable choice the Empire would choose between those two options? This would still have sparked a conflict in Skyrim, just like in the Civil War, where Ufric would gather his allies and the Empire would gather their allies. Now you seem to think that the scenario you mentioned would give Ulfric more support and eventually force a seceding of the Empire, I must disagree. The Empire would still have half of Skyrim at their call, due to their strong influence the Western Holds. Solitude, being home of the Imperial Legion and all Imperial interest in Skyrim, as well as the seat of the Imperial sanctioned High King, would back the Empire no matter what. Markarth, with a new Jarl who firmly believes the Empire(and Skyrim) cannot survive another war with the Dominion will back the Empire too. Even if Igmund would change his mind and support Ulfric, his city had just been given over to the Imperial Legion to be occupied. He won't have much of a choice until Markarth becomes liberated. Dengeir in Falkreath will support Ulfric, but then become overthrown, per usual. Siddgeir will then support the Empire so long as he gets his cut. And Idgrod in Morthal would hardly change her mind either, especially considering the close proximity Hjaalmarch is to Solitude. Balgruuf in Whiterun might have felt more compelled to support Ulfric, but let's not forget that Balgruuf also has a certain bias against Ulfric, as he considers him being a "barbarian renegade who lusts for power". It is not entirely certain he would help Ulfric either way. It's not an exaggeration, it's the literal definition. Hostage is defined by "seized or held as security for the fulfillment of a condition" Ulfric refused to hand over the city until his demands were met. You could technically call that treason if you wanted to exaggerate a bit. at that point in time he was a Jarl under the rule of the Empire, he should have handed control back to the Empire, instead he demanded they break the terms of the peace treaty they literally JUST signed. Prompting the Thalmor to send "enforcers" since the Empire could no longer be trusted to enforce it themselves. Who is to say they didnt attempt an agreement with Ulfric? The lore only mentions he gave them the terms and the empire eventually eventually agreed in order to regain control. right or wrong, what he did was illegal, and honestly stupid to poke the dominion that way.

What would you suggest the Empire do? Stand with Ulfric and allow Talos worship after just signing the White-gold concordat? They JUST achieved peace and were getting ready to rest, and in come Ulfric demanding the terms be reversed. You can't sign a treaty and then immediately redact on the terms. They pretty much just agreed to whatever Ulfric wanted in order to regain control. Why is it not ok for the Empire to reneg on those terms but it's OK for Ulfric to have held an entire city hostage to further his goals?

I don't agree with the idea of the Empire bowing to the Dominion if Ulfric had attacked the Thalmor directly. I believe the dominion would have leaned on the Empire to do SOMETHING, however it's more likely they would have just let Skyrim go as they did with Hammerfell. Theres precedence here, they literally already did this. The WGC doesn't state the Empire has to fight the Dominion's enemies. If skyrim "invades" an embassy, and Skyrim is apart of the Empire, it would mean the Empire is invading, the Dominion would lean on the Empire to get it's collective shit together, the Empire would most likely try and demand Ulfric stop fighting, Ulfric would have told them to"help or sod off", leaving the empire with the options of either letting Skyrim go in order to maintain the peace, or as you said, fight Ulfric, but why would they choose the option that means losing more soldiers? It'd be eaiser to let Skyrim become independent, pull your troops, and maintain trade. Sure Ulfric would probably send out the propaganda that the Empire is too weak and are toothless, etc etc, but theres no way the Empire would choose to go into open civil war. Had Ulfric actually done that instead, he could have kept the Thalmor busy while the Empire regained its strength.

The Empire is in a cold war with the Dominion, they are not a puppet, they don't bow to the Thalmor, they don't have Dominion forces listening in on war councils, they hate each other and each is just waiting for the other to make the first move. The only reason the empire is fighting the Stormcloaks now is because Ulfric killed the High King, amassed an army, and started spewing anti-empire hate speeches. The Empire needs Skyrim, and can't have a Jarl of all people committing acts of violence, and causing dissidence. The Empire protecting its own asset just fueled Ulfric's flames, and here we are. Hammerfell didnt agree with the Empire either but they didnt start killing Imperials or standing on soap boxes claiming they no longer NEEDED the empire, they just kept fighting the Dominion.

Why does everyone expect so much from the Empire? they literally just lost and rewon their own country back, and yet everyone still expects them to solve all of Tamriel's problems. They took the most losses from this war, and they're still trying to maintain peace, and regain control, but everyone else around them it using it as an opportunity to fill their own agendas and somehow that all equals out to the Empire is too weak to hold power.