User talk:Zippertrain85

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 * --Jimeee (talk) 11:58, May 29, 2013 (UTC)

Elven reproduction in lore
I was just wondering, where did you read/hear that Elves reproduce slower than Men? So far, all I've been able to find is a sentence in "The Real Barenziah" that says they have on average 3-4 children in their lifetime. Draevan13 (talk) 18:38, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

I assume they reproduce slower simply because they live longer, they would be drastically overpopulated if they had as many babies as humans did but lived roughly twice as long. Zippertrain85 (talk) 18:44, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

I'm asking because the way you keep saying "they reproduce slower than humans" I thought you had a source in TES lore rather than personal opinion. Especially since you said "all you need is to know the lore on Elves" when, to the contrary, TES lore states that they have 3-4 children on average, much like humans do. However, while they can live for a thousand years, they rarely do due to war and disease. Draevan13 (talk) 18:57, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

That's not an opinion. That's belief is based on a real fact that if they live that much longer and have the same amount of babies as humans they're going to get so overpopulated they'll become extinct. I don't think them having 3 to 4 children on average is true for this reason. Zippertrain85 (talk) 20:07, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

Be that as it may, the people who make the game and story say they have the same amount of children as humans. So for future reference, saying "Elves reproduce slower than humans" is false since, quite the contrary, TES lore states they reproduce as quickly as humans but rarely live for a thousand years due to war and disease. It may be true in other fictional worlds that Elves reproduce slower but, in the Elder Scrolls Universe, it's approximately the same reproduction cycle. Draevan13 (talk) 20:56, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

Biologically speaking that makes no sense what so ever. Also, where does it state that they have as many children as man? Barenziah doesn't count because that one Elf. That doesn't represent the whole population. Zippertrain85 (talk) 22:47, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

With humans it would make no sense. But we're dealing with fantasy and a race of beings that don't exist. Human physiology doesn't apply to the situation. Besides, it's stated on this wiki's page on Elves that they don't live long due to war and disease. Thus no over-population. And the Healer was referring to Elves in general when he states that they have 3-4 children on average, not just Barenziah herself. Draevan13 (talk) 23:08, August 8, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure who the Healer is. Anyway, they still do live to their hundreds atleast even with these things in mind so that's still twice as long as humans. Even then it still doesn't make sense, Bethesda wouldn't make such a lazy plothole.

The Healer who was brought in by Tiber Septim to confirm Barenziah was pregnant? Did you even read the lore in question?

Whether it makes sense you you or not, it's still the lore Bethesda chose for the Elven races. You stated lore as your source for how fast Elves reproduced, I was just pointing out that the lore actually contradicts your statement. That's all I was trying to say. Draevan13 (talk) 00:37, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Which books is this from. Because I have a very hard time believing Bethesda would screw up like this. Zippertrain85 (talk) 01:13, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure if it's "The Biography of Barenziah" or "The Real Barenziah", it's been a while since I've read them. I don't see how it's a screw up, they explain how the Elves don't over-populate: war and disease mean they rarely live out their full lifespans. I've explained that several times. Draevan13 (talk) 01:27, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I just checked, it's in "The Real Barenziah". Draevan13 (talk) 01:31, August 9, 2013

And I already explained how despite this they still live to be 200 or 300 on average, which is still twice or three times as long as a regular human. I'll look through those. Zippertrain85 (talk) 01:33, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Orcs also have a thousand life-span, being Elves. Yet they don't over-run Tamriel, do they? Why? War and disease, same as the other Elves. Draevan13 (talk) 01:41, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

If you want to quicken your search, the part with the Healer is in "The Real Barenziah, Volume III", near the end. And it's 2-3 children, 4 is very rare, my mistake. Draevan13 (talk) 01:50, August 9, 2013

I read it. And it says how Elves don't have many children. Only two usually, and that's at a much older age then humans. But it doesn't seem common for them only to have one, or just none at all. Zippertrain85 (talk) 02:13, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

As it says, "two is usually the rule", just like the average in modern day North America. Well, 2.5, to be technical. Half a child. Creepy. Draevan13 (talk) 02:35, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

I still feel like it doesn't completely refute my point about Elves reproducing slower. I don't want to know what a half baby is. LOL Zippertrain85 (talk) 02:39, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Certainly they produce fewer children than humans can. But not to the extent where they couldn't recoup their loses after 30-odd years, nor that they couldn't build up a huge army in the 100 years they took before attacking the Empire. Draevan13 (talk) 03:45, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

But she still made it seem like having one or no children was common. Also, you need to consider how many babies humans can have maybe they have 4 to 5 or average. We just agree to disagree Zippertrain85 (talk) 15:32, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

So when lore says "two is usually the rule" you interpret that as "one or none". Alrighty then. DRAEVAN13 19:21, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

They might have been talking about the ones that do have kids. Not all Elves in general. You took a lot of what that book said out of context. Zippertrain85 (talk) 20:00, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

"No Elven woman conceives more than four times, and that is very rare. Two is the usual number. Some bear none, even, and some only one." That seems pretty clear to me: Elves will rarely birth 4, 2 is the usual number, some will bear 1 or none. This is all we know of Elven reproduction, little, obviously. I'll admit, he doesn't specify. But my original point was that you said "all you need is to know the lore on Elves" when it came to their reproduction. This is all the lore we have, and it doesn't support your statement. It doesn't disprove it either, but it doesn't support it. But you can't say "lore proves my statement" when in fact no, it doesn't.  DRAEVAN13 20:26, August 9, 2013 (UTC)

Regarding the Argonians in Windhelm
I recall that during our discussion about the Stormcloaks, you mentioned an Argonian named Scouts-Many-Marshes saying that the Argonians volunteered to live on the docks. I'm not sure if you misunderstood, because I just talked to him and this is how it went:

Me: Are you happy Ulfric is gone?

Scouts: You have no idea. It was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls. I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of a bigoted Nord dictator.

Just thought you should know, they're forbidden from living in the city. They didn't volunteer. DRAEVAN13 04:04, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

That could easily be misleading. It might've been Ulfric's decree that they live on the docks, according to Stands-in-shallow they used to live on the streets in Windhelm. The reasons Scouts could've thought he was a dictator to his kind was because he didn't give them all their own homes. But put them in a homeless shelter instead. Zippertrain85 (talk) 04:09, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

I just went and talked to Stands-in-Shallows. He asks me for Skooma, then has two sentences of unique dialogue, and then repeats generic greetings. I completed his quest, which makes him add another line of generic dialogue. Not once does he mention what you claim he says. In fact, I asked around Windhelm and none of the Argonian dock workers or Windhelm residents differ from one story: the Argonians are forbidden by Ulfric's decree from living in Windhelm. DRAEVAN13 04:32, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

Someone told me he had that line of dialogue. I'll have to check around.

His only unique dialogue lines are: "Another day, another Septim", "The young folks are too happy to break their backs for the Nords. They forget what it was like to swim free!" and finally, if you're an Argonian, "Trust me, Marsh-Friend, you do NOT want to live in this city." Apart from that he just uses generic greetings. DRAEVAN13 13:19, August 15, 2013 (UTC)

So did you look around Windhelm? I did, and no one differs from what Scouts says: the Argonians are forbidden by Ulfric's decree to live in the city. DRAEVAN13 23:29, August 20, 2013 (UTC)

That stil isn't proof that it's because of discrimination. Zippertrain85 (talk) 00:52, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Discrimination is the prejudicial treatment of an individual or individuals based on their actual or perceived membership in a certain group. Denying a race of people a right based on their race is textbook discrimination. DRAEVAN13 04:36, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Well, it is right next to their job after all. Also, did you notice there might not be enough room in the city for them to live in. Do you know four empty houses they could move into? Zippertrain85 (talk) 04:39, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Ulfric issued a decree forbidding Argonians from living in the city. Even if there were a hundred empty houses, they wouldn't be allowed in. Your argument refuting Stormcloak racism in Windhelm towards Argonians was based on Shallows' supposed dialogue. This has been proven as false, and even contradicted by the citizens. Ulfric forbids a race of people from living inside the city. Individuals of that race I'd understand, but all of them? Without even knowing who they are as people, how honest or hard-working they are, but simply because they're Argonian, they can't live in the city? That is discrimination. DRAEVAN13 04:48, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

They can enter the city when ever they want. Most Argonians like to keep to themselves. And again, there job is on the docks. It's not just because they're Argonians. I'll talk to the person I heard the Dialogue theory from to see if it's true. If it is, then this isn't discrimination at all. Zippertrain85 (talk) 05:32, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I never said they couldn't ENTER the city. Ulfric's decree forbids them from LIVING in Windhelm. Yes, their job is at the docks. So is Suvaris Atheron's, yet she lives in the city. Why? Because she's not an Argonian, and thus not forbidden from living there. The Argonians are given no choice in the matter. DRAEVAN13 13:55, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, I misunderstood what you said. Why would Ulfric force her to live on the docks away from her family simply for fill out some unnecessary quota? Zippertrain85 (talk) 15:47, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

He doesn't force her to live on the docks, as I said, because she's not an Argonian, and thus not forbidden from living in the city. DRAEVAN13 16:01, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

But as I explained, it's not a racial issue. Zippertrain85 (talk) 16:13, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

You said you don't think it is a racial issue, but you haven't given me a valid reason as to why Ulfric would issue such a decree. Available housing is irrelevent when the decree forbids them from living in the city at all, not forbids them until housing becomes available. Again, I would understand if he forbade certain individual Argonians, i.e Argonian A since he's a Skooma addict and Argonian B because he's a thief, but all of them without exception? At the very least, that's highly suspicious. DRAEVAN13 18:18, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

How do you know they can't live in the city at all? Why do you assume it's even if houses are built? I keep explaining this to you, but you've ignored it everytime. So again, they all have the same job on the docks, as far as we know they didn't have homes in the city. And again, I'll look for that quote. Zippertrain85 (talk) 18:27, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I'm not ignoring your argument, it simply doesn't make sense. If the decree was issued because there isn't any available housing, no one of any race would be allowed to move in. But Ulfric's decree targets Argonians. That's why I think it has nothing to do with housing. Besides, they've been forbidden for years. You're telling me there hasn't been a single available house in all that time? I find that very unlikely.

If you can find a source for your theory, fine. But for now, the sources I found state that Ulfric forbids Argonians from living in the city. Not, as you originally thought, because they were homeless within the city and Ulfric kindly gave them shelter. They were never allowed inside in the first place. DRAEVAN13 19:08, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I think I found out when he says it. You can hear him talking to the racist Argonian about their living situation. You need to talk to them fast or else they'll just give you the typical "you're not supposed to be in here". Zippertrain85 (talk) 19:17, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

You mean Shallows? I've spoken to him both inside and outside of the Assemblage, and all I've ever heard him say was what I listed in one of my previous comments. DRAEVAN13 19:26, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

I think he needs to have the conversation with the racist Argonian. It might take a while for the conversation to start. Zippertrain85 (talk) 19:28, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

So it's a conversation between Stands-in-Shallows and Scout-Many-Marshes? What do they say? DRAEVAN13 19:32, August 21, 2013 (UTC)

Not Scouts-Many-Marshes, the Argonian who says he won't save you if you're drowning and tells you to leave if you're not an Argonian. I'm not sure exactly what they say, but I do believe it might be where the "it's better then living on the streets" dialogue came from. Zippertrain85 (talk) 19:36, August 21, 2013 (UTC)