Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26356342-20150908184019

I've got a lot to answer, so this might get long, apologies in advance.

S&#039;Dalaar the Snowcat wrote: Maybe because Ulfric is a faithful Nord, who wanted to help his people(not to mention his fellow comrades from the Great War) so they can worship Talos again?

I'd believe this point if Ulfric was only ever JUST pro Talos, he's not tho, he's very anti-empire. Even during Torygg's moot he was yelling about needing to secede. He fought in the great war and felt betrayed by the Empire, I get it. but lets not pretend Ulfric has some sort of moral high ground here where he was just looking out for people's rights to religious freedoms. This was a political move.

As for the reclaiming of Markarth, I dont see it as an illegal act. You may not see it as illegal, but that's what it was plain and simple. under Imperial law, since they owned the land, when they could finally afford to send the soldiers to "reclaim" the hold, capitol, Ulfric is bound by law to release it to them, not try and make demands. the fact he said "you cannot enter unless..." made it illegal. There shouldnt have been any haggling, it's an Imperial territory and imperial soldiers are there now to gain control of the situation. NOW is it right for them to come and swoop in after it was already "handled" by Ulfric? no, probably not, but legally they are within the right.

If bandits were to take over a Hold, THAT would be illegal. Since it wouldn't be done under the authority of the owner of that hold.

The "owner of the hold" is the Empire. The whole province is theirs, the people follow Imperial law. If, say, Jarl Maven asks Balgruuf for help dealing with bandits in her city. He sends his troops, they kill the bandits and then Balgruuf decides he's going to "root out" all the "evil" within Riften, so his troops stay. Maven then uses her connections within the Empire to have Legionaries show up to maintain Imperial order. If Balgruuf turns them away at the gate, he has essentially invaded and captured the hold under the pretext of helping. His intentions are well and good, and he's got a good cause, but denying access to the Empire means it's a crime. Like I said it'd be the same if it were bandits, if the Jarl of Markarth had hired real bandits to fight the reachmen, and they refused entry to the city unless demands were met, it's just as illegal.

As for the Empire acting like any ruler, I disagree. Whether or not Ulfric deliberately instigated a war, he did prove a point; that the Empire are willing to sacrifice their allies to save themselves. See, when the Thalmor found out and said "cease the Talos worship and arrest the militia, or else...", what should the Empire have done? The armies of the Dominion and the Empire were tied after the war.

It was a little after 1 year this all took place, they JUST signed the peace treaty, and the Emperor has NO way of knowing for sure how strong the enemy is. WE know from information produced AFTER the events that the Dominion may not have been able to fight. But even the lore doesn't state outright they were even. The Emperor can only make decisions based on the given information he had on hand, he just signed a peace treaty, the Imperial capitol was sacked, the land hadn't even healed from the scars of battle, but you suggest they call out the dominion's bluff? That's reckless. it endangers the innocent people of both Cyrodiil and Skyrim, and for what? to appease a single outspoken man with a militia?

Instead of standing strong and telling the Thalmor: "you can't dictate our business". Instead they said, through their actions; "we will do whatever you ask, just no war pls".

But what business are they dictating? We dont have any evidence the Dominion is making any decisions for the Empire. The only things they do is enforce the treaty, specifically the Talos ban. They havn't stopped any deals, they don't sit in on council meetings, Even in season unending, when they try and sit in on the cease fire terms (which they would have a right to) you can send them away. The Empire (and by extension Skyrim) is not ready for another War, and if the Thalmor happen to think the Empire isnt strong enough to fight back yet, then so be it, let them believe they still have the power. overconfidence cost them the huge numbers of troops during the great War, lets keep that trend going. No one at present is ready for War but the Dominion is just the ones willing to "poke the bear" they want the Empire to strike first, so long as the Empire doesnt play their game they can continue to grow in strength and be ready for when the Dominion gets tired of playing and actually acts. (preferably after they believe they're so superior it'll be easy)

Well, I still think that if Ulfric were trying to battle the Thalmor in Skyrim, the Empire would have to take the Thalmor’s side. Based on what tho? personal opinion of the Empire? They've never aided the Thalmor in terms of battle. When they fought Hammerfell, The Empire didnt aid the dominion. If Skyrim is fighting the Dominion, it means either the Empire fell, and lost so badly that the dominion pushed into Skyrim, which would also mean the Empire not only can't help the dominion, they cant help anyone. Or If the Empire still has troops, the dominion placed themselves between 2 armies, the worst possible position for them to be in. If the Empire wins the Civil War in Skyrim, it doesn't then gain the Stormcloaks as part of its army, and vice versa for the Stormcloaks. Theres no scenario that ends with the Empire fighting along side the Dominion. AT PRESENT if the Dominion attacked Skyrim the Empire would HAVE to fight with the Stormcloaks actually, since Skyrim is still technically a province of the Empire, attacking Skyrim now even during a civil war would mean invading the Empire and instigating a war.

The Thalmor Justiciars mention that “by Imperial Law, we are allowed to do whatever we wish”.

By that they are referring to the treaty. The treaty signed made it Imperial Law to ban all worship of Talos. Due to incidents like the markarth incident, where the Empire is shown outright disregarding the terms, the Justicars were brought in (note, not soldiers) to enforce the law. Like any law it can be enforced based on the officer. If I'm speeding on the highway, a law officer can decide to let me off with a warning. I was breaking the law clearly, he has evidence and everything, but decides to warn me about speeding instead. Same with the Empire, he have no evidence saying they were doing as the Thalmor do, and ripping people from their homes at night, raiding Talos Shrines and imprisoning people. There are Imperial troops everywhere, they could have done that easily if they wanted to. Hell even the High King of Skyrim secretly still worshipped Talos. It's the Thalmor who are enforcing the Ban, all the Empire did was remove some shrines from "official" churches, and called it "good enough".

I didn't mean to imply that the Septim Dynasty was perfect. Its wasn't. But what they DID, was keeping the Empire together Well if by "kept the Empire together" you mean "didnt lose other provinces" then I guess, kinda that's true. They mostly had either nothing happening, reigning in peace, or they had really really bad civil wars. Tho I need to go back and check if any of them lost any territories during their time as Emperor.

But that doesn’t mean that the economics of Skyrim can’t move on from their depression and get better. I guess that is why people tend to pick the Empire over the Stormcloaks.

Theres no way they could go from depression to invasion (like Ulfric likes to frequently mention). Skyrim has great Warriors, but a great warrior without supplies and backup, and equipment means little on the battlefield, especially against people such as the Dominion. Now just isnt the time for Skyrim to go independent.

If Skyrim falls to the Thalmor, not only will all escape routes be cut off, but they will be surrounded from south and north. And Cyrodiil will be doomed. Having an army posted in Skyrim will still benefit them more than if they pull them away.

Skyrim can only fall to the Thalmor if the Thalmor have taken Cyrodiil, in which case they've already won. As you said there isnt really anywhere else to retreat to. At present, Hammerfell is mad at the Empire, and is bitter towards them, and if Ulfric wins, he's not going to then go and save the Empire, he would rather fight the dominion head on. And with Skyrim needing to recover from the civil war and impending depression, they've severely weakened, even if Cyrodiil puts up the best fight ever, If the Dominion takes Cyrodiil, Skyrim wont have enough time to recover on its own. IF Skyrim were to stay with the Empire, the troops may not even get to Skyrims borders, the fighting could be contain within Cyrodiil, as it was before during the first great war.

Now on to a couple others...

A Wikia contributor 201.76.82.124 wrote:

All I see in this thread is "The Empire is the best choice... because I said so" .... .... .... Comes the end of the day, the Stormcloaks are right. Do you see the irony here?

As a side note, it should be noted that Ulfric isn't a fool. If the Stormcloaks win the civil war, he says they WILL take the fight against the Dominion. He wouldn't be such idiot to make such a decision unless he knew what he was doing.

How does he do this? With Skyrim's powerful naval force that doesnt exist? Or does he allow the elves to invade his lands, sacking his cities and killing his people before he fights them?