The Elder Scrolls Wiki:Moot/Log March 2019


 * 00:09:23: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Oh
 * 00:09:23: User:Atvelonis: half an hour
 * 00:09:23: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Ok
 * 00:09:29: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Hello!
 * 00:09:29: User:Aramithius: Evening
 * 00:09:29: User:Atvelonis: o/
 * 00:09:30: User:Dwemer35: Hello
 * 00:09:30: User:Atvelonis: o/
 * 00:09:31: User:RhodiumOdi: O/
 * 00:09:33: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Hello!
 * 00:09:45: User:TinyClayMan: Harro everynyan
 * 00:09:45: User:Aramithius: Heya
 * 00:09:45: User:Rupuzioks: Greetings
 * 00:09:48: User:Atvelonis: hi
 * 00:09:48: User:Atvelonis: o/
 * 00:09:48: User:WilburCobb1: Hello
 * 00:09:49: User:Atvelonis: heya
 * 00:09:49: User:Nehpys: Hello there
 * 00:09:50: User:Purrington: 😊
 * 00:09:50: User:WilburCobb1: I will stick around and see what the "moot" is all about, in the mean time, I have some college stuff to sort out. So I am gonna be in and out.
 * 00:09:51: User:Atvelonis: No problem
 * 00:09:57: User:Rozty: Hello
 * 00:09:57: User:Aramithius: Aloha
 * 00:09:57: User:TinyClayMan: Greetings
 * 00:09:57: User:Rozty: I am on phone so things will be a little weird
 * 00:09:57: User:Nehpys: hello there
 * 00:09:57: User:RhodiumOdi: Same
 * 00:09:57: User:Aramithius: Oh, have fun with that
 * 00:09:57: User:Rozty: Should we start or do wait for three more minutes
 * 00:09:57: User:Atvelonis: We can wait a couple more minutes
 * 00:09:57: User:Aramithius: Why they didn't optimise chat for mobile is beyond me, but eh
 * 00:09:58: User:Atvelonis: Flightmare was thinking about making a mobile skin for the Chat a couple years ago, but he evidently never got around to it
 * 00:09:58: User:Rozty: Rip
 * 00:09:58: User:RhodiumOdi: I remember the official line on Chat being that the entire system makes their programmers cry or something along those lines
 * 00:09:58: User:Aramithius: Fair enough. Didn't realise that was something that we could do
 * 00:09:58: User:Rozty: Btw since I can't check moot topics rn you will have to do it for me
 * 00:09:59: User:Aramithius: They said that about the Forums as the reason that Discussion was a thing. Everything makes the engineers cry, it seems.
 * 00:09:59: User:Atvelonis: lol that was a good quote
 * 00:10:00: User:Atvelonis: "The current forum feature has some very pronounced deficiencies -- notably a lack of mobile compatibility and near-invisibility on local search, but there are many other issues that are “behind the scenes” and make our engineers weep quietly in corners."
 * 00:10:00: User:Atvelonis: Thread:905171
 * 00:10:00: User:Atvelonis: rip bert
 * 00:10:00: User:TinyClayMan: Rozty, sent your topics to you in Discord
 * 00:10:00: User:Rozty: I wait
 * 00:10:01: User:Atvelonis: This is the agenda: https://i.gyazo.com/e23da52560400745be7e61866152eb00.png
 * 00:10:01: User:Aramithius: Hang on... why do they need visibility in local search? It's not like Wikia does much that's based on physical location
 * 00:10:01: User:WilburCobb1: Don't you think, something like Discord, or Skype would be a much better place to hold a moot?
 * 00:10:01: User:TinyClayMan: Not skype
 * 00:10:02: User:WilburCobb1: Just, throwing idea out there
 * 00:10:02: User:Atvelonis: @Ara: he means Wikia's search feature does a terrible job of finding forum content
 * 00:10:02: User:Atvelonis: @Wilbur: Discord perhaps. But the Discord server is not official
 * 00:10:02: User:Aramithius: Ah, ok
 * 00:10:02: User:Atvelonis: Also Chat is supposed to be logged by Flightmare's bot
 * 00:10:02: User:Atvelonis: KINMUNE is currently AWOL, though...
 * 00:10:02: User:WilburCobb1: I have seen other fandom pages link their discord to the side bar.
 * 00:10:02: User:Aramithius: Where has she gone now...?#
 * 00:10:02: User:Rozty: Hello there
 * 00:10:03: User:Aramithius: Evening, Stygies
 * 00:10:03: User:Atvelonis: She's as dead as she's been for a while. Working on Discussions and Slack, dead on Chat
 * 00:10:03: User:Atvelonis: It had to do with the URL change
 * 00:10:03: User:Atvelonis: Apparently
 * 00:10:03: User:Aramithius: Ah, ok
 * 00:10:03: User:RhodiumOdi: KINMUNE is currently busy merging with her Chinese and Russian AMs
 * 00:10:03: User:Atvelonis: @Wilbur: Yes, we don't link to ours because it technically isn't an official server, i.e. Chat mods are not required to moderate it and any actions/statements made on the Discord server are not considered when handing out blocks/etc. on the wiki
 * 00:10:03: User:Rozty: Willbur the reason we don't link it is because it's now our official server
 * 00:10:04: User:Atvelonis: It isn't official since the Chat still exists
 * 00:10:04: User:Rozty: Ah too late it answer rip
 * 00:10:04: User:Atvelonis: Anyway, it's 3:04. We should get started
 * 00:10:04: User:Atvelonis: Rozty, you're up fiorst
 * 00:10:04: User:Atvelonis: first
 * 00:10:04: User:Aramithius: Funky
 * 00:10:04: User:Rozty: Right
 * 00:10:04: User:WilburCobb1: Well ... there is 3 answers, so, OK then lol


 * 00:10:05: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Back
 * 00:10:05: User:Rozty: First, I noticed that we don't really have a guideline for sourcing stuff that can be found on the same page
 * 00:10:06: User:Rozty: For example, if we have a statement that can be sourced from a dialogue written in the same page then we can't be sure whether to include it as a sourve or not since its in the same page
 * 00:10:06: User:Aramithius: Wouldn't it just be a note to the page title and a # command to take you to the relevant section in the Reference?
 * 00:10:06: User:Rozty: Could we do it like this?
 * 00:10:07: User:Rozty: Idk, it's exactly because we don't have a stars and in mind that I wanted to bring it up
 * 00:10:07: User:Atvelonis: I think what Rozty is saying is that we don't have a policy on how to source content on the same page that it originates on

Depending on how it's worded, it could be referenced every few sentences. ":Category: Images - Priority 0" (none) ect... through, say, 5 to the highest needed? You planned to include not only books For experience Add the template that uses a formula for the given experience And the range of exp values in the ===Rewards=== section "is a character residing in" which I consider to be inappropriate to a lot of characters Name is a character residing in some cave full of undead. Nothing else can be said
 * 00:10:07: User:Rozty: We can decide now
 * 00:10:07: User:Atvelonis: Not that it's impossible to do it
 * 00:10:07: User:Atvelonis: e.g. on an NPC's background section, we might refer to something given in their dialogue, which is recorded on that same page
 * 00:10:07: User:Atvelonis: If it were on another page we would just use &lt;ref&gt;Dialogue with blah&lt;/ref&gt; but oftentimes the refs are ignored when it's on the same page
 * 00:10:07: User:Aramithius: Ah, gotcha.
 * 00:10:08: User:TinyClayMan: I don't see any problem with them being ignored
 * 00:10:08: User:Atvelonis: Well, then it's just a big unsourced block of text
 * 00:10:08: User:Atvelonis: People don't necessarily know that the info came from that character's dialogue without a reference
 * 00:10:09: User:Rozty: I don't think it's a good idea to just ignore them, even if the source is in the same pave
 * 00:10:09: User:Rozty: Page
 * 00:10:09: User:TinyClayMan: Won't it look like &lt;ref&gt; after every sentence?
 * 00:10:09: User:Rozty: Yes
 * 00:10:09: User:Aramithius: I think we do need a system for it. So is it simply a note in the style guide that it should be noted in the refs section?
 * 00:10:10: User:Rozty: But I just want to make this practise the standard
 * 00:10:10: User:Atvelonis: I think having more references is a good thing
 * 00:10:10: User:Nehpys: "Won't it look like &lt;ref&gt; after every sentence?"
 * 00:10:10: User:Atvelonis: Even if in some cases it ends up being slightly redundant, it makes it easier for people to trace where info came from
 * 00:10:10: User:Atvelonis: Including us
 * 00:10:10: User:Aramithius: Even if it is after every sentence, that's not a problem
 * 00:10:11: User:Rozty: Yes, I did think it was redundant at first but better that than have someone be completely confused as to where it came from
 * 00:10:11: User:Nehpys: Of course not, but it doesn't *have* to be after every sentence; just depending on how it's worded, you could kill a few with one stone by using 1 reference for a few sentences of information through dialogue references.
 * 00:10:11: User:Atvelonis: yes
 * 00:10:12: User:Atvelonis: e.g. in a paragraph with 3 sentences, if all of them are from the same thing, we can just have 1 reference at the end
 * 00:10:12: User:Nehpys: Mhm.
 * 00:10:12: User:Rozty: Yeah
 * 00:10:12: User:Atvelonis: The implication is that the reference covers everything before it, up until the previous reference, or a line break
 * 00:10:12: User:Aramithius: OK, do we need to move to a vote now?
 * 00:10:12: User:Rozty: I don't have anything else to add here
 * 00:10:12: User:Atvelonis: Any objections/concerns/etc.?
 * 00:10:12: User:Nehpys: Then how about cutting off the vote with and "VOTE START" :kapap:
 * 00:10:13: User:Nehpys: cutting off duscission*
 * 00:10:13: User:Nehpys: shoot
 * 00:10:13: User:Rozty: Kapap
 * 00:10:13: User:Atvelonis: kapap indeed
 * 00:10:13: User:Aramithius: Nothing further from me (+)
 * 00:10:13: User:Stygies VIII: back but I read stuff above
 * 00:10:13: User:Atvelonis: wait
 * 00:10:13: User:Atvelonis: summary real quick
 * 00:10:13: User:Stygies VIII: was absent
 * 00:10:14: User:Atvelonis: So we are voting to add references to information requiring citation in all situations, even if the reference points to the page that it is placed on.
 * 00:10:14: User:Unrivaled Radiance: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:Atvelonis: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:RhodiumOdi: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:Nehpys: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:Dwemer35: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:Aramithius: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:Atvelonis: 7-0-0
 * 00:10:14: User:Stygies VIII: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:Rozty: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:Atvelonis: 9-0-0
 * 00:10:14: User:Rupuzioks: (+)
 * 00:10:14: User:Atvelonis: (+) to vote btw @Wilbur, if you'd like to give your input
 * 00:10:15: User:Atvelonis: 10-0-0
 * 00:10:15: User:Stygies VIII: i g n o r e d
 * 00:10:15: User:Rozty: Rip
 * 00:10:16: User:Rozty: Should I move to the next one then?
 * 00:10:16: User:Aramithius: "So we are voting to add references to information requiring citation in all situations, even if the reference points to the page that it is placed on." - Atvelonis
 * 00:10:16: User:Atvelonis: Yes go ahead Roz
 * 00:10:16: User:Stygies VIII: lol
 * 00:10:16: User:Rozty: Oke, just one moment
 * 00:10:17: User:Atvelonis: You have the floor
 * 00:10:17: User:Nehpys: *you have 10 seconds, post-those a revolution will start in favor of the Communists!*
 * 00:10:17: User:Nehpys: :D
 * 00:10:18: User:RhodiumOdi: Why would you give her the entire floor
 * 00:10:18: User:Stygies VIII: I confirm, I'm from East Europe
 * 00:10:18: User:RhodiumOdi: Rotzy give that back
 * 00:10:18: User:Stygies VIII: wait a second, Rozty is a her?
 * 00:10:18: User:Rupuzioks: ceiling is still left
 * 00:10:18: User:Rozty: Right, so there are a lot of pages that are in need of an image, and the category is added by the infobox automatically. The problem is that for a lot of those pages we simply don't have any photos available
 * 00:10:18: User:Stygies VIII: wow, people mistake even me for a guy (I'm a girl) and I'm surprised she is, too :o
 * 00:10:19: User:Rozty: So I think we need a wya to distinguish those from the ones rhta actually need the images
 * 00:10:19: User:Rozty: I'm not surprised at this point tbh
 * 00:10:19: User:Nehpys: A priority category?
 * 00:10:19: User:Rozty: Have even stopped correcting people because it's funny
 * 00:10:19: User:Aramithius: The problem is that the precise list for this isn't really determined by category. I don't think there's an automated way to do it
 * 00:10:19: User:Stygies VIII: is there a way to fill the infobox with "no image avaliable" or "this never appeared in games"
 * 00:10:19: User:Stygies VIII: same here @rozty
 * 00:10:19: User:Nehpys: You can set the default image to something like that.
 * 00:10:20: User:Rozty: Not really, something to keep the image needed category from appearing in pages that don't even need the image
 * 00:10:20: User:Nehpys: Someone would have to make one, of course.
 * 00:10:20: User:Atvelonis: Some wikis have placeholder images to solve this
 * 00:10:20: User:Atvelonis: Just something they make that says "no image"
 * 00:10:20: User:Atvelonis: I don't really like this solution though
 * 00:10:20: User:Rozty: Yeah, but unless we come up with a good placeholder
 * 00:10:20: User:Atvelonis: It will bring up that image on search results, which isn't helpful
 * 00:10:20: User:Aramithius: Do we need an image-free infobox, then?
 * 00:10:20: User:Atvelonis: Some infoboxes are already image-free
 * 00:10:20: User:Atvelonis: Certain lore stuff for example
 * 00:10:20: User:Nehpys: If the categories matter there could be
 * 00:10:21: User:Rozty: But not all
 * 00:10:21: User:RhodiumOdi: I hate those placeholder images
 * 00:10:21: User:Stygies VIII: is there no way to fill that in with text?
 * 00:10:21: User:Atvelonis: I think the problem is when we have particular types of infoboxes, which need images 99% of the time, but 1% of the time they don't
 * 00:10:21: User:Rozty: Yeah
 * 00:10:21: User:Atvelonis: Like datamined ESO books that we probably can't get pictures of
 * 00:10:22: User:Atvelonis: @Stygies: do you mean just writing plaintext in the image field?
 * 00:10:22: User:TinyClayMan: Can't we just write |image = noimageavailable ?
 * 00:10:22: User:Stygies VIII: yes
 * 00:10:22: User:Rozty: Yes
 * 00:10:22: User:Rozty: That's what I was thinking about
 * 00:10:22: User:TinyClayMan: That should solve the problem
 * 00:10:22: User:Atvelonis: I didn't realize that worked
 * 00:10:22: User:Stygies VIII: wait, that works
 * 00:10:22: User:Rozty: It Doe s
 * 00:10:22: User:Rozty: Does
 * 00:10:22: User:Stygies VIII: so I guess problem solved?
 * 00:10:22: User:Aramithius: Ah, excellent
 * 00:10:22: User:Stygies VIII: doe s
 * 00:10:22: User:Aramithius: In which case, again, it's just a matter of publicising it to the Style Guide
 * 00:10:23: User:Stygies VIII: ^
 * 00:10:23: User:TinyClayMan: Now we should think of the use of words
 * 00:10:23: User:Atvelonis: N/A
 * 00:10:23: User:Atvelonis: My preference
 * 00:10:23: User:Stygies VIII: same
 * 00:10:23: User:Atvelonis: Concise and easy to remember
 * 00:10:23: User:TinyClayMan: Too easy, but okay
 * 00:10:23: User:Rozty: Yup
 * 00:10:23: User:Stygies VIII: "too easy"
 * 00:10:23: User:Stygies VIII: isn't that the point of it
 * 00:10:23: User:Rozty: (kappa)
 * 00:10:24: User:TinyClayMan: Should be long enough not to be rememberd so you would have to increase the Style Guide's viewcount :kapap:
 * 00:10:24: User:Atvelonis: lol
 * 00:10:24: User:RhodiumOdi: oof
 * 00:10:24: User:Atvelonis: I can still put it in the style guide
 * 00:10:24: User:Stygies VIII: kapap
 * 00:10:24: User:Rozty: Do I change the kappa on discord to kapap now
 * 00:10:25: User:Rozty: Kapa
 * 00:10:25: User:Atvelonis: Make kapap a vivec-ified version of it
 * 00:10:25: User:Rozty: O
 * 00:10:25: User:Rozty: So many good ideas
 * 00:10:25: User:Atvelonis: Anyway, does anyone have comments about this proposal before I summarize &amp; we vote?
 * 00:10:25: User:Rozty: But no space for them
 * 00:10:26: User:Rozty: No other commentv
 * 00:10:26: User:Aramithius: No more from me
 * 00:10:26: User:Stygies VIII: no
 * 00:10:26: User:Nehpys: So Vote Time?
 * 00:10:26: User:Atvelonis: So the proposal is to add "N/A" (without quotes) to the "image" field of infoboxes on articles that cannot conceivably have images, in order to remove the aut-generated "image needed" category.
 * 00:10:26: User:Atvelonis: (+)
 * 00:10:26: User:Rupuzioks: maybe the reason why there is no image
 * 00:10:26: User:Nehpys: (+)
 * 00:10:26: User:Stygies VIII: (+)
 * 00:10:26: User:TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 00:10:26: User:Aramithius: (+)
 * 00:10:26: User:Rozty: (+)
 * 00:10:27: User:Atvelonis: 6-0-0
 * 00:10:27: User:RhodiumOdi: (+)
 * 00:10:27: User:Rupuzioks: (+)
 * 00:10:27: User:Dwemer35: (+)
 * 00:10:27: User:Atvelonis: 9-0-0
 * 00:10:27: User:Atvelonis: @Radiance, Wilbur?
 * 00:10:28: User:Rozty: They be ded
 * 00:10:28: User:RhodiumOdi: rip
 * 00:10:28: User:Atvelonis: rip in peace
 * 00:10:29: User:Rupuzioks: rip in rip
 * 00:10:29: User:Rozty: F in the chaylt
 * 00:10:29: User:Rozty: I killed that one
 * 00:10:29: User:TinyClayMan: rippip
 * 00:10:29: User:Nehpys: F
 * 00:10:29: User:RhodiumOdi: kapap
 * 00:10:29: User:Atvelonis: Hi
 * 00:10:29: User:Atvelonis: If there are no other votes, we can move onto the next topic
 * 00:10:29: User:Rozty: Should I move on to my Laat topic now
 * 00:10:29: User:Atvelonis: yes
 * 00:10:29: User:TheKorraFanatic: Hi.
 * 00:10:29: User:Unrivaled Radiance: (+)
 * 00:10:29: User:Nehpys: I vote to make (Kapap) an emote.
 * 00:10:29: User:Rozty: Oof autocorrect
 * 00:10:30: User:Nehpys: (kappa)
 * 00:10:30: User:Atvelonis: 10-0-0 for that previous one
 * 00:10:30: User:Rozty: Me too
 * 00:10:30: User:Unrivaled Radiance: I am alive and well, just playing hollow knight
 * 00:10:30: User:Rozty: Ill get to it later
 * 00:10:30: User:Rozty: Let me start on the actual topic now
 * 00:10:31: User:Rozty: It's pretty simple, a new category for datamined books in ESO, or at least something that makes them stand out from the rest that appear normally in the game
 * 00:10:31: User:RhodiumOdi: Seems fair, distinguish those in game and those in the game files, right?
 * 00:10:31: User:Rozty: Of course, the category will be only for those books that have been datamined yet do not appear in the game
 * 00:10:31: User:Rupuzioks: datamined content maybe
 * 00:10:31: User:Dwemer35: Good idea
 * 00:10:31: User:Aramithius: As in, datamined prior to a release, or something that is the data after a release?
 * 00:10:31: User:TinyClayMan: Ah wait
 * 00:10:32: User:TinyClayMan: Rozty
 * 00:10:32: User:Rozty: I did?
 * 00:10:32: User:Stygies VIII: there is more than books
 * 00:10:32: User:Rozty: Hmm
 * 00:10:32: User:Stygies VIII: so datamined content is good
 * 00:10:32: User:Rozty: Yeah
 * 00:10:32: User:Aramithius: Ah, yes. My issue with that is that would it create additional cleanup when the game was actually released, which may not get done.
 * 00:10:32: User:TinyClayMan: That's why you changed "books" to "content" on the moot page
 * 00:10:32: User:Rozty: Then a universal category for all
 * 00:10:33: User:Rozty: Oof yeah I did do that
 * 00:10:33: User:Atvelonis: Images too?
 * 00:10:33: User:Rozty: True, it was for all content
 * 00:10:33: User:Aramithius: Would it be a problem for updating and cleanup once things were actually released?
 * 00:10:33: User:Rozty: Hmm, that does complicate things a bit
 * 00:10:33: User:TinyClayMan: The category can be added after the release
 * 00:10:33: User:Rozty: I guess it would be
 * 00:10:34: User:TinyClayMan: This way it can be confirmed which things were added and which were not
 * 00:10:34: User:Rozty: But if we add it for those after release then it wouldn't be that much
 * 00:10:34: User:Aramithius: That's the thing
 * 00:10:34: User:Rupuzioks: category can be changed depending on the release content
 * 00:10:34: User:Stygies VIII: but showing datamined equally with not datamined is not good
 * 00:10:34: User:Stygies VIII: so this idea is nice
 * 00:10:34: User:Atvelonis: I think TCM's solution is appropriate
 * 00:10:34: User:Stygies VIII: same
 * 00:10:34: User:Aramithius: Wouldn't that mean a lot of manual checking to make it accurate?
 * 00:10:35: User:TinyClayMan: No
 * 00:10:35: User:Aramithius: Ah, ok
 * 00:10:35: User:Rozty: We would be going back to those pages again at some point anyway after the content in question is released
 * 00:10:35: User:TinyClayMan: ^
 * 00:10:35: User:Aramithius: Fair enough, then.
 * 00:10:35: User:Atvelonis: We're honestly sort of slow when it comes to pre-release content anyway
 * 00:10:36: User:Rozty: Yeah
 * 00:10:36: User:TinyClayMan: Ooh
 * 00:10:36: User:TinyClayMan: I have another idea
 * 00:10:36: User:Rozty: Ooh?
 * 00:10:36: User:TinyClayMan: Will add the third topic to this moot
 * 00:10:37: User:TinyClayMan: Done
 * 00:10:37: User:Rozty: Then are we all clear on this topic now?
 * 00:10:37: User:Stygies VIII: yis
 * 00:10:37: User:Aramithius: Yeah
 * 00:10:37: User:Atvelonis: This just for ESO, correct?
 * 00:10:37: User:TinyClayMan: Yes (?)
 * 00:10:37: User:Aramithius: I don't think other games would create this issue. Can Legends be datamined in the same way?
 * 00:10:37: User:Stygies VIII: but there's also TESL content
 * 00:10:37: User:Atvelonis: Legends can be
 * 00:10:38: User:Atvelonis: I wish DreamSoulshine were here
 * 00:10:38: User:Aramithius: OK, so we'd need to extend it to Legends, and presumably Blades as well?
 * 00:10:38: User:Atvelonis: @Rupuzioks: aren't those Legends character "avatars" datamined?
 * 00:10:38: User:Atvelonis: The circular images
 * 00:10:38: User:Atvelonis: Or are they in the actual game too?
 * 00:10:38: User:Stygies VIII: they are, but some do appear in quests
 * 00:10:38: User:Rupuzioks: yes and all of them are in the game
 * 00:10:38: User:Atvelonis: Oh ok so they would be exempt
 * 00:10:38: User:Stygies VIII: also there are datamined card art that were never used
 * 00:10:39: User:Stygies VIII: but often they are used in new releases
 * 00:10:39: User:Stygies VIII: like
 * 00:10:39: User:Stygies VIII: there's a giant batch of art datamined long ago
 * 00:10:39: User:Stygies VIII: and sometimes images from there appear in new DLC
 * 00:10:39: User:Rupuzioks: for Legends only a couple of things in beta I think that was not released
 * 00:10:39: User:Stygies VIII: but beta is not datamined so
 * 00:10:39: User:Rozty: Do we have pages for them?
 * 00:10:40: User:Stygies VIII: what did you mean in particlular @Rapuzioks?
 * 00:10:40: User:Rupuzioks: mostly card art
 * 00:10:40: User:Stygies VIII: but from the beta
 * 00:10:40: User:Stygies VIII: ahhh old beta card art yes?
 * 00:10:40: User:Rupuzioks: yes
 * 00:10:41: User:Stygies VIII: then I think those images are on the card pages?
 * 00:10:41: User:Rozty: But they did appear at some point in beta yes?
 * 00:10:41: User:Stygies VIII: yes
 * 00:10:41: User:Stygies VIII: for example Redoran Enforcer art
 * 00:10:41: User:Rupuzioks: I think there are also some lane rules that was not added
 * 00:10:41: User:Rozty: Oh
 * 00:10:42: User:Rupuzioks: it's on Lanes article in Trivia section
 * 00:10:42: User:TinyClayMan: *will be away for 3 minutes*
 * 00:10:42: User:Rozty: That is on a page of its own though
 * 00:10:43: User:Atvelonis: I'm not sure I'd like to apply the category to a page that isn't 100% datamined
 * 00:10:43: User:Rupuzioks: yes, for the Legends I think there is no need such category
 * 00:10:43: User:Rozty: Yeah ^
 * 00:10:44: User:Atvelonis: Ok so just ESO then
 * 00:10:44: User:Rozty: For now at least
 * 00:10:44: User:Rupuzioks: also as of new update the text files are no longer available to datamine
 * 00:10:44: User:Atvelonis: Someone mentioned Blades earlier: but maybe we should cross that bridge when we reach it
 * 00:10:44: User:Stygies VIII: ^
 * 00:10:44: User:Aramithius: OK, so proposal and vote?
 * 00:10:44: User:Rupuzioks: in fact with Isle of Madness expansion
 * 00:10:45: User:Rozty: Yup, fine with me
 * 00:10:45: User:Rozty: Oh?
 * 00:10:45: User:Stygies VIII: yeah, there was a breach with IoM but it was kept secret
 * 00:10:45: User:Atvelonis: So the proposal is to add an "Online: Datamined Content" category to ESO articles/files comprised of content that has been datamined prior to release, but was never actually included in the game itself.
 * 00:10:45: User:Atvelonis: (+)
 * 00:10:45: User:Rupuzioks: now they are encrypted in little endian file
 * 00:10:45: User:Stygies VIII: (+)
 * 00:10:45: User:RhodiumOdi: (=)
 * 00:10:45: User:Dwemer35: (+)
 * 00:10:45: User:Atvelonis: 3-1-0
 * 00:10:45: User:Rozty: (+)
 * 00:10:46: User:Rupuzioks: (+)
 * 00:10:46: User:Aramithius: (+)
 * 00:10:46: User:Atvelonis: 6-1-0
 * 00:10:46: User:Unrivaled Radiance: (+)
 * 00:10:46: User:Atvelonis: 7-1-0
 * 00:10:46: User:Atvelonis: TinyClayMan?
 * 00:10:46: User:Rozty: Oki, after this I need to go, will see if I can be there for the end
 * 00:10:47: User:Rozty: Cya
 * 00:10:47: User:TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 00:10:47: User:Rupuzioks: cya
 * 00:10:47: User:RhodiumOdi: Wait, give me back my floor
 * 00:10:47: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Bye
 * 00:10:47: User:TinyClayMan: Bye
 * 00:10:47: User:Aramithius: Catch you later
 * 00:10:47: User:Dwemer35: Bye
 * 00:10:47: User:Atvelonis: 8-1-0
 * 00:10:48: User:Atvelonis: Ok, moving on then, if there are no more votes
 * 00:10:48: User:Atvelonis: cough
 * 00:10:48: User:Atvelonis: Tiny, I think you're up
 * 00:10:48: User:TinyClayMan: Alright
 * 00:10:49: User:TinyClayMan: The proposal is to add a parameter to OnlineQuests infoboxes
 * 00:10:49: User:TinyClayMan: |exp =
 * 00:10:49: User:Atvelonis: ah shit
 * 00:10:49: User:TinyClayMan: It would work similar to |gold parameter
 * 00:10:49: User:Atvelonis: that's going to be a gigantic pain
 * 00:10:49: User:Atvelonis: I support
 * 00:10:50: User:Atvelonis: My understanding is that exp in ESO works very similarly to gold rewards
 * 00:10:50: User:TinyClayMan: Yes
 * 00:10:50: User:Atvelonis: So we could set up another template like Template:ESOGold which I made last summer
 * 00:10:50: User:TinyClayMan: I agree
 * 00:10:51: User:Atvelonis: Same setup on articles as gold? Formula in infobox, range in ==Reward== section?
 * 00:10:51: User:TinyClayMan: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Template:ESO_XP_Table here are the values for exp rewards
 * 00:10:51: User:Atvelonis: Oh, brilliant. Should be easy to reverse engineer a formula then
 * 00:10:51: User:TinyClayMan: That would probably be the best
 * 00:10:51: User:Rupuzioks: so maybe group them |reward, |gold |exp
 * 00:10:51: User:Atvelonis: simple algebra. I can do that at some point
 * 00:10:51: User:Atvelonis: Well the formulas aren't necessarily the same @rup
 * 00:10:51: User:Atvelonis: and |reward is for more tangible stuff like items
 * 00:10:52: User:Rupuzioks: I know, but I mean have them separated but in one group in infobox
 * 00:10:52: User:Rupuzioks: different group from other variables
 * 00:10:52: User:Atvelonis: I'm not sure what you mean
 * 00:10:54: User:TinyClayMan: Divide the infobox into two sections?
 * 00:10:54: User:Atvelonis: Like the book dropdowns?
 * 00:10:54: User:Atvelonis: On
 * 00:10:54: User:Rupuzioks: yeah
 * 00:10:54: User:Rupuzioks: but it can be without dropdown
 * 00:10:54: User:TinyClayMan: Not sure why would that be needed
 * 00:10:54: User:Rupuzioks: like on item templates
 * 00:10:55: User:Rupuzioks: value and weight are grouped
 * 00:10:55: User:Atvelonis: I think that adds an additional layer of complexity to the template that I don't really want to deal with
 * 00:10:56: User:Rupuzioks: it's only on the Quests main template
 * 00:10:56: User:Atvelonis: Yeah, but I'm just not sure it's really necessary
 * 00:10:57: User:Rupuzioks: I see, it's a suggestion
 * 00:10:58: User:TinyClayMan: Okay then, time for summary
 * 00:11:01: User:TinyClayMan: Add the |exp parameter to OnlineQuests infoboxes
 * 00:11:01: User:Atvelonis: Yes
 * 00:11:01: User:Atvelonis: (+)
 * 00:11:01: User:Stygies VIII: (+)
 * 00:11:01: User:TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 00:11:01: User:Aramithius: (+)
 * 00:11:01: User:Atvelonis: 4-0-0
 * 00:11:01: User:Rupuzioks: (+)
 * 00:11:02: User:Atvelonis: 5-0-0
 * 00:11:02: User:Atvelonis: dropping like flies
 * 00:11:02: User:Dwemer35: (+)
 * 00:11:02: User:Atvelonis: @Korra, Radiance
 * 00:11:02: User:Atvelonis: 6-0-0
 * 00:11:02: User:Unrivaled Radiance: (+)
 * 00:11:02: User:Atvelonis: 7-0-0
 * 00:11:03: User:TheKorraFanatic: (+)
 * 00:11:03: User:Atvelonis: 8-0-0
 * 00:11:03: User:Atvelonis: Ok great
 * 00:11:03: User:Atvelonis: We can move onto the next topic now
 * 00:11:04: User:TinyClayMan: The second proposal is to change the Create article/character/ templates
 * 00:11:04: User:Unrivaled Radiance: In what way?
 * 00:11:04: User:TinyClayMan: And also several hundreds character articles
 * 00:11:05: User:Aramithius: What changes are needed?
 * 00:11:05: User:TinyClayMan: There is a line
 * 00:11:06: User:Unrivaled Radiance: ???
 * 00:11:06: User:TinyClayMan: Most of the time on the articles it looks like
 * 00:11:06: User:Atvelonis: Why is it inappropriate?
 * 00:11:06: User:Atvelonis: That seems correct to me...
 * 00:11:06: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Yeah.
 * 00:11:06: User:TinyClayMan: Doesn't "residing" implies that the characters lives there?
 * 00:11:07: User:Stygies VIII: but they usually do
 * 00:11:07: User:Atvelonis: Well the word has several definitions
 * 00:11:07: User:Aramithius: You mean replace with something like "found in"
 * 00:11:07: User:Aramithius: ?#
 * 00:11:07: User:Atvelonis: There is "have one's permanent home in a particular place."
 * 00:11:07: User:TinyClayMan: Yes, Aramithius
 * 00:11:07: User:Atvelonis: But there is also "be situated."
 * 00:11:07: User:Atvelonis: You can be situated in a place without living their permanently
 * 00:11:07: User:Atvelonis: So I think the phrase is fine
 * 00:11:07: User:Stygies VIII: yep
 * 00:11:07: User:Stygies VIII: it is
 * 00:11:08: User:Stygies VIII: resides in is "wide" enough
 * 00:11:08: User:Stygies VIII: I mean broad lol
 * 00:11:08: User:Atvelonis: wb o/
 * 00:11:09: User:Rupuzioks: well, this is English semantic, I think I'll be neutral on this
 * 00:11:09: User:Atvelonis: We can vote on this now unless there are other comments
 * 00:11:09: User:Unrivaled Radiance: We might as well.
 * 00:11:10: User:TinyClayMan: A matter of definition and perception of this word
 * 00:11:10: User:Atvelonis: So the proposal is to replace all instances of "resides in" in the leads of NPC articles with "found in" or similar
 * 00:11:10: User:Atvelonis: (-) personally
 * 00:11:10: User:Stygies VIII: (-)
 * 00:11:10: User:TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 00:11:10: User:Aramithius: (=)
 * 00:11:10: User:TheKorraFanatic: (-)
 * 00:11:10: User:Rupuzioks: (=)
 * 00:11:10: User:Unrivaled Radiance: I agree with atv (-)
 * 00:11:10: User:Atvelonis: 1-2-4
 * 00:11:10: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Sorry clay.
 * 00:11:10: User:Aramithius: Any more?
 * 00:11:11: User:Unrivaled Radiance: I believe not.
 * 00:11:11: User:TinyClayMan: There is the third topic
 * 00:11:11: User:Atvelonis: Could have sworn that was the last one?
 * 00:11:11: User:Atvelonis: If you have another then go ahead haha
 * 00:11:11: User:Atvelonis: wb odi
 * 00:11:11: User:WilburCobb1: I think it depends on context, residence is place of living, found if just location
 * 00:11:12: User:Aramithius: Someone said there was another one, but I can't see it on the page
 * 00:11:12: User:WilburCobb1: To me, it makes little difference
 * 00:11:12: User:Unrivaled Radiance: That was the first tile I have seen a proposal be turned down.
 * 00:11:12: User:Aramithius: We've moved onto the next item, Wilbur
 * 00:11:12: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Time*
 * 00:11:12: User:TinyClayMan: The next proposal is to add a new category for Online content that was removed from the game
 * 00:11:12: User:Aramithius: What was the final topic?
 * 00:11:12: User:Aramithius: Ah, ok
 * 00:11:12: User:Atvelonis: Wait! I think we already have one
 * 00:11:13: User:Atvelonis: Category:Online: Removed Content
 * 00:11:13: User:TinyClayMan: Oh
 * 00:11:13: User:Atvelonis: It's admittedly sorta... small?
 * 00:11:13: User:TinyClayMan: No topic then
 * 00:11:13: User:Stygies VIII: oof
 * 00:11:13: User:Atvelonis: I'm not sure why it only has like 10 pages
 * 00:11:13: User:Atvelonis: Because there are definitely more instances of removed content
 * 00:11:13: User:TinyClayMan: Those pages are ancient
 * 00:11:13: User:Stygies VIII: maybe because everyone forgot about it
 * 00:11:13: User:Aramithius: Because it's hard to add in content after it's been removed
 * 00:11:13: User:Atvelonis: I think it would be a good idea to start using the category more though
 * 00:11:13: User:Aramithius: And no one's had the patience to wade through the changes to existing pages to track what rules have been changed etc
 * 00:11:14: User:Atvelonis: lol yeah
 * 00:11:14: User:Atvelonis: I think a bunch of quests were disabled in Update 12, we could start there
 * 00:11:14: User:Aramithius: Makes sense. Is there any way of flagging that as a "to-do" list?#
 * 00:11:14: User:Aramithius: I don't think you can add categories to historical edits
 * 00:11:15: User:Atvelonis: You could put it on User:Atvelonis/Projects, although I am not known for finishing projects
 * 00:11:15: User:Aramithius: Heh, you and me both
 * 00:11:15: User:TinyClayMan: Our wiki had some to-do list
 * 00:11:15: User:Aramithius: Is moot over, then?
 * 00:11:16: User:Atvelonis: There's the list on Special:Community
 * 00:11:16: User:Atvelonis: I'm quite slow about updating this though
 * 00:11:16: User:Atvelonis: I wonder if they fixed the scrollbar bug
 * 00:11:16: User:Rupuzioks: how about unavailable content for datamined, removed, not released, pre released
 * 00:11:16: User:TinyClayMan: Category for categories?
 * 00:11:16: User:Aramithius: That's a good taxonomy
 * 00:11:16: User:Atvelonis: As a hub category I think it could work, sure
 * 00:11:16: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Category-ception
 * 00:11:17: User:Atvelonis: We can vote on that if you want, just to codify it
 * 00:11:17: User:Atvelonis: @rup
 * 00:11:17: User:Rupuzioks: as of now where are all those found?
 * 00:11:17: User:Atvelonis: just in Category:The Elder Scrolls Online
 * 00:11:17: User:Atvelonis: a bit broad
 * 00:11:17: User:Rupuzioks: it would be easier to find them then
 * 00:11:17: User:Atvelonis: I agree
 * 00:11:17: User:Atvelonis: We can do a quick vote on this too
 * 00:11:17: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Ok.
 * 00:11:18: User:Stygies VIII: on what exactly
 * 00:11:18: User:Stygies VIII: can we get a summary
 * 00:11:18: User:Atvelonis: Add "Category:Online: Unavailable Content" as a hub category for the Datamined, Removed, and Pre-Release Content categories
 * 00:11:18: User:Atvelonis: Slightly better organized
 * 00:11:18: User:Rupuzioks: A hub category for all unavailable content categories
 * 00:11:18: User:Stygies VIII: ok
 * 00:11:18: User:Atvelonis: (+)
 * 00:11:18: User:Aramithius: (+)
 * 00:11:18: User:Stygies VIII: (+)
 * 00:11:18: User:WilburCobb1: (+)
 * 00:11:18: User:Atvelonis: 4-0-0
 * 00:11:18: User:Unrivaled Radiance: (+)
 * 00:11:18: User:Rupuzioks: (+)
 * 00:11:18: User:Atvelonis: 6-0-0
 * 00:11:19: User:TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 00:11:19: User:TheKorraFanatic: (+)
 * 00:11:21: User:Atvelonis: 8-0-0
 * 00:11:21: User:Atvelonis: @Dwemer
 * 00:11:21: User:Dwemer35: Sorry
 * 00:11:21: User:Dwemer35: (+)
 * 00:11:22: User:Unrivaled Radiance: 9-0-0
 * 00:11:22: User:Unrivaled Radiance: It is decided then.
 * 00:11:23: User:Atvelonis: Ok
 * 00:11:23: User:Atvelonis: Any last-minute topics?
 * 00:11:23: User:Atvelonis: You don't have to have signed up
 * 00:11:23: User:Unrivaled Radiance: No.
 * 00:11:23: User:WilburCobb1: I might have 1
 * 00:11:23: User:Atvelonis: Go ahead then
 * 00:11:23: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Oh?
 * 00:11:24: User:WilburCobb1: Since I am new bare with me, its on how we should handle IDs really.
 * 00:11:24: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Ok
 * 00:11:25: User:WilburCobb1: For instance, on that bandits page i edited days ago, there is like 100+ IDs for bandits.
 * 00:11:25: User:WilburCobb1: and the formaula isn't accurate
 * 00:11:25: User:Aramithius: So what needs to be done?
 * 00:11:25: User:WilburCobb1: So for pages with mass IDs, should we always include every id possibkle?
 * 00:11:25: User:WilburCobb1: possible*
 * 00:11:26: User:Atvelonis: Typically, yes
 * 00:11:26: User:WilburCobb1: I feel like it isn't necessary personally
 * 00:11:26: User:Atvelonis: e.g. Books (Skyrim) has all IDs
 * 00:11:26: User:Atvelonis: Can you explain what a leveled character ID is?
 * 00:11:27: User:WilburCobb1: yes I can
 * 00:11:27: User:WilburCobb1: Leveled characters have a set pool of specific actors it will generate
 * 00:11:27: User:WilburCobb1: when it spawns it will pick one
 * 00:11:28: User:WilburCobb1: so there is a bandit one handed leveled character, it spawns all races of one handed bandits, and all levels, and it can decide which level of bandit to spawn based on PC level
 * 00:11:28: User:Atvelonis: I see
 * 00:11:28: User:Atvelonis: That's a useful thing to include, but the individual IDs are also still useful
 * 00:11:28: User:Atvelonis: See: Stormcloak Soldier#Variants
 * 00:11:29: User:WilburCobb1: is it may pick bandit EncBandit04Melee1HRedguardM if the player is a level 30 or so
 * 00:11:29: User:Aramithius: I need to be off. Sleep beckons
 * 00:11:29: User:Aramithius: Catch you all later
 * 00:11:29: User:Atvelonis: On this page we have every specific ID listed, because of the different appearances that the characters have
 * 00:11:29: User:WilburCobb1: I see
 * 00:11:29: User:Atvelonis: People likely to be looking up IDs could easily be looking for a particular character/template
 * 00:11:30: User:Rupuzioks: for the huge lists we add them in collapsible table anyway
 * 00:11:30: User:Atvelonis: e.g. for an artificial war or something
 * 00:11:30: User:Atvelonis: And they might like to make their soldiers more varied
 * 00:11:30: User:Atvelonis: So just using the leveled ID would give them too many of the same one
 * 00:11:30: User:WilburCobb1: Then perhaps make it a staple to also include the leveled varients for people who want them randomly generated?
 * 00:11:30: User:Atvelonis: Isn't that already on the page?
 * 00:11:31: User:WilburCobb1: I don't believe so, I will have to investigate
 * 00:11:31: User:WilburCobb1: It doesn't seem like it though
 * 00:11:31: User:Atvelonis: https://i.gyazo.com/4d9789e3ccc4b0053cfe2f68ba8b43de.png
 * 00:11:31: User:Atvelonis: ???
 * 00:11:31: User:WilburCobb1: and if those are leveld, then there needs to be furthure IDs
 * 00:11:32: User:Atvelonis: Oh, do you mean on the individual NPC pages?
 * 00:11:32: User:WilburCobb1: Yeah, include every kind of ID possible.
 * 00:11:32: User:Rupuzioks: well, this is mostly for the generic characters
 * 00:11:33: User:Atvelonis: Do all generic NPCs use this leveling system?
 * 00:11:33: User:WilburCobb1: pretty much
 * 00:11:33: User:Atvelonis: I guess it wouldn't hurt to include it then
 * 00:11:34: User:WilburCobb1: Yeah, that is probably a great idea
 * 00:11:34: User:Atvelonis: To summarize: add individual NPC IDs to pages like Bandits (Skyrim) in addition to their leveled IDs, and for all individual pages on generic NPCs, include the leveled ID alongside the individual ones
 * 00:11:34: User:Atvelonis: (+)
 * 00:11:35: User:TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 00:11:35: User:Rupuzioks: (+)
 * 00:11:35: User:WilburCobb1: (+) ~I don't know if my own vote counts
 * 00:11:35: User:Dwemer35: (+)
 * 00:11:36: User:Atvelonis: Your vote counts
 * 00:11:36: User:Unrivaled Radiance: (+)
 * 00:11:36: User:Atvelonis: 6-0-0
 * 00:11:36: User:TheKorraFanatic: (+)
 * 00:11:37: User:Atvelonis: 7-0-0
 * 00:11:37: User:Atvelonis: @Stygies
 * 00:11:38: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Are we done then?
 * 00:11:39: User:Atvelonis: If there are no other votes then yes
 * 00:11:39: User:Unrivaled Radiance: Ok
 * 00:11:39: User:Atvelonis: Any final last-minute topics?
 * 00:11:39: User:Atvelonis: Guess not!
 * 00:11:40: User:Atvelonis: So if we're all set, then by the power vested in me by Todd Howard and Jimbo Wales, I hereby declare this moot to be complete!
 * 00:11:40: User:Unrivaled Radiance: See you all next month!
 * 00:11:40: User:Rupuzioks: cya
 * 00:11:40: User:Dwemer35: Goodbye
 * 00:11:40: User:Atvelonis: Poisoned apples is taking a break from the wiki right now and KINMUNE is dead so the moot summary will be posted manually by someone at some point, probably
 * 00:11:41: User:WilburCobb1: heh
 * 00:11:41: User:Atvelonis: I'm probably just going to make Rozty do the update again
 * 00:11:41: User:Atvelonis: I mean, if any staff member feels like they'd like to step up to the plate, be my guest. :P They aren't very tough
 * 00:11:42: User:Atvelonis: User:Atvelonis/Admin#Weekly updates
 * 00:11:42: User:Atvelonis: But I will save the transcript and it will be formatted eventually
 * 00:11:46: User:Dwemer35: Goodbye