Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27157999-20160710144119/@comment-28135006-20180123053719

Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

LordOswin wrote: 1. I live in a country where big earthquakes happen quite often, and places get smashed up. When people leave, and then the rebuild starts, they don't come back to help because they still have nowhere to live.

2. Name one piece of dialogue that supports this claim. You're making a lot of assumptions about Ulfric's character with very little in-game evidence. If you're fighting a war, in your country and are trying to curry favour with a certain people, you protect them. If they've already said "nah fam you got this" then there is little reason for him to intervene because "you got this". Brunwulf wants to help the Dunmer, but even when he's jarl he can't do anything because of the people's suspicion and fears, yes. Don't you think that Ulfric has a similar reasoning rather than just pinning all the blame on him?

3. Not entirely true, as many of the Morrowind slaves were kept underground, not in a big paddock. And again, that matters little because they were geographically closest to the border. Also, I'd like to point out that many of the argonians working on the docks are theives and drug abusers, so the only one really being mistreated is Shavee. As for the dark elves, the one you see being bullied when you first enter the city is actually involved in a business with a the Shatter-Shields with pirates, one keeps drugs in his bar, and another sells stolen goods. They aren't as innocent as they seem. The failure of the Ebonheart pact began, lore-wise when the Nords accept Ysmir as the true heir to the ruby throne, but the dunmer (since they posess the heart of lorkhan already) do not think they need the living Mantler to tell them how to march. For the argonians, with the Imperials hot on the Dunmer's tail, they would need to bolster their forces with conscription, and by the second era were indeed taking argonian slaves again. The Argonians retreated, and the Morrowind houses went back into full fervor now that there's no more alliance.

And yes, I would expect someone on the other side to care, as it has happened before. Soldiers are still people, and I think this is evidenced in-game by Hadvar and Ralof, helping the player no matter what race, and the fact that you were a prisoner.

4. After the imperial city had fallen. Not when, after, as it says in the dossier. We don't have an exact year, only the year the reachmen took hold of Markarth, and held it for 2 years in 4E 174, so it's more likely Ulfric returned to skyrim around that time or later. On top of that, he was in no shape to continue fighting. The battle of the Red Ring was a last ditch effort to stop the empire crumbling completely, but it pretty much already had and was a waste of time, since the terms of the white-gold concordat were exactly the same as the beginning. That is not true, a challenge to the throne is a battle to the death, if the victor so chooses, while Torygg's death was unfair, it was not illegal. Also, in-game, not once does Ulfric ever say "I wanna be king", in fact, the closest thing he says is "We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one but us". I do encourage you to read through the dialogue of both Tullius and Ulfric.

Bonus:

Oh, so racism is okay if they're on the other side? Noted. Tullius has actual dialogue evidence of disdain for nordic culture, but Ulfric has none for others.

Stormcloak: Actually, Hammerfell supports the idea of Skyrim being independant within the lore, it was only lazy coding that didn't have Redguard warriors in the stormcloak ranks (much like how the super diverse imperials are an all imperial male legion). High Rock has no love for the Thalmor regime either, and since their trade routes with Cyrodiil have now been cut off by the two independant nations surrounding it, it's likely to end up assisting them financially, or possibly joining the alliance. That means 1 strong Hammerfell, 1 weak Skyrim (because it's only just stopped warring with itself) and 1 weak/strong High Rock depending on how invested they get.

Imperial: Cyrodiil is not strong, it's still shattered after the great war. Many organisations such as the blades and the darkbrotherhood were completely wiped out, and are barely rebuilding themselves in Skyrim's day. Skyrim is not strong either, as it's only just gotten out of it's inner turmoil. Regardless of which side wins, it's about the same strength, which is about half it's full capacity. High Rock doesn't care about the empire, and has no love for the thalmor, so appart from trade it's very unlikely they would be interested. That makes 1 weak cyrodiil, 1 weak skyrim, and 1 weak to non existent High Rock.

Thalmor: Alinor is strong. It's having no internal conflicts at the moment. Valenwood is not strong, it's very unhappy with the Thalmor and it's purges, and Elsweyr is undergoing it's own civil war because the Thalmor assasinated the Maine. That makes 1 strong Alinor, 1 weak Valenwood, and 1 weak Elsweyr.

I think you are biased, as there is no inderect thalmor intervention. The Thalmor did not attempt to prevent Ulfric's execution, though it benefitted them. The thalmor are capturing stormcloak soldiers, and that is weakening the army because they're trying to hold the stalemate for as long as possible. They're indirectly aiding the imperials, actually. Keeping the numbers down just enough so that no one can properly advance. The Stormcloak rebellion began in one city, and as of the events of the main quest, holds 3 out of a possible 4. The empire holds 4 out of a possible 5 (because Whiterun is neutral). Please find me some evidence of Thalmor assistance, and I'd be happy to reconsider my judgement. I'm only going off the lore facts and in-game evidence.

I'd also like to remind you of the Stormcloak giant cut content, which was most likely removed to make the fight seem more even. 1. Good for you, too bad that's not how it goes in TES. Earthquackes, volcanic eruptions, they only temporary cause a lack of people, the cities are being rebuilt and the volcano has stopped with spewing out lava, only ash remains.

2. One piece of dialogue? Ha! Why not link you some Dunmer, and even non-Dunmer, who show it? Ambarys Rendar, Aval Atheron, Malthyr Elenil, Brunwulf Free-Winter or Alfarinn. To prove it, we only have to look; all the Dunmer are forced into a slum, refugees' rest is overrun by hostile creatures, and the small cabin just down the road of it? Entirely taken over by bandits. Brunwulf doesn't think because the Nords of Windhelm have adopted Ulfric's racist lifestyle, as he says: "Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted.", and, as the dialogue with the Dunmer proves, their life was fine until Ulfric became Jarl. What does that prove? That these people adapted to Ulfric's ways.

3. Not in either Hlaalu or Dres territory. The slaves that were kept underground were also kept by bandits; not Great Houses. "They were close to the border", never heard of ships, have you?

They aren't thieves and drug abusers, only one of them uses drugs. As for the Dunmer, can't blame her for that, as her Nord rulers are to blame for the deals with the pirates, not her. The Ebonheart Pact had fallen way before Ysmir even returned. Hell, they didn't even choose to side with the Empire Ysmir fought for. You're mixing up dates.

"Soldiers are still people", as if you would act if the people who have treated you like dirt forever get taken down a notch. "Soldiers are still people", wow, great analysis, how dare the Jews not aid Wehrmacht soldiers when they got shot down! No. When people mistreat you, you stop caring about them.

4. After the imperial city had fallen from the Imperials to the Dominion, not the other way around.

And no, it makes more sense for Ulfric to have fled back in 4E 173, as three years is enough time for the son of a jarl to create a militia while most people are off fighting in a war. Ulfric did not fight during the battle of the Red Ring, and the terms of the Concordat were not the same as the ultimatum.

It is not a battle to the death, never was, never will be. The victor does not "choose", by tradition you spare the opponent, you best them in a duel, then banish them, you don't kill. "not once does Ulfric ever say "I wanna be king", in fact, the closest thing he says is "We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one but us". I do encourage you to read through the dialogue of both Tullius and Ulfric."

Allow me to quote, from Ulfric Stormcloak himself: "I have the greatest respect for the Greybeards, of course. And the dragon attacks are a growing plague. But the political situation is still delicate. Not all the Jarls are fully committed to supporting me as High King. I can't afford to appear weak. I can't agree to this unless Tullius himself will be there."

"No, not yet. We'll wait for the Moot to name me High King. It'll be better for all that way. But, that doesn't mean I won't start acting like it."

I also, again, refer to his oath, which clearly shows his future goals. There's a reason why he sees neutrality as hostility; he does not want competition.

Bonus:

Tullius has disdain for a culture, and only speaks of that. Ulfric on the other hand has a hatred for other races, which is mentioned by his supporters, and shown by his deeds as Jarl.

Stormcloak: Lu'ah Al-Skaven would beg to disagree with that statement.... the Nords even hold 1,5 cities of Hammerfell, they are not getting any support. Also, "all Imperial male"? I suggest you replay the game, there are Nords, Bretons, Imperials, and Redguards amongst the Legion's ranks, excluding the Legates.

There aren't any Thalmor in High Rock either. Their trade routes wouldn't suddenly open by creating an alliance with the Stormcloaks, at least, not without the Stormcloaks admitting they do piracy... even then, you need to cozy up with the Thalmor if you want to do serious trade on Tamriel. Hammerfell isn't strong either, its armies are heavily depleted, its cities raided, and the southern part of it was ravaged in the Great War.

Imperial: "Most of the Legion is tied down on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion. The Emperor can't afford to risk weakening Cyrodiil's defenses." -General Tullius Cyrodiil is not weak. Also, the Blades are not an Imperial organisation, and the Empire itself is hunting down the Dark Brotherhood; the Brotherhood is a criminal organisation.... nothing of what you say shows any "weakness". Skyrim's stength is nothing in comparison to Cyrodiil, that's fact, even your beloved Ulfric admits this.

"High Rock doesn't care for the Empire"

Thalmor: Alinor is strong, the Bosmer are not unhappy because of purges, as those purges are only against dissidents and criminals. Elsweyr is not in civil war, as the Thalmor didn't assassinate the Mane at all.

"I think you are biased, as there is no inderect thalmor intervention. The Thalmor did not attempt to prevent Ulfric's execution, though it benefitted them."

Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak, "The incident at Helgen is an example where an exception had to be made - obviously Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim. (NOTE: The coincidental intervention of the dragon at Helgen is still under scrutiny. The obvious conclusion is that whoever is behind the dragons also has an interest in the continuation of the war, but we should not assume therefore that their goals align with our own.) A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed."

The Thalmor are aiding the Stormcloaks, and tried to save Ulfric from execution. The Thalmor are capturing Talos worshippers, not Stormcloak soldiers, and because they capture Talos worshippers, people join the Stormcloaks;

"My cousin disappeared one night. Some say the Thalmor grabbed him. It wasn't long before I found myself under Ulfric's banner." -Stormcloak Soldiers

The Thalmor are not aiding the Imperials at all. They are making people join the Stormcloaks. The very reason the Thalmor banned Talos worship was because they want to weaken the Empire, they wouldn't aid it.

The Stormcloak rebellion began at Markarth, and? Why is this relevant?

Giants were removed because it's not lore friendly at all. 1. This may be fantasy, but Elder Scrolls does aim for realism. Ash is a problem on solstheim, so it would obviously be a big problem on the mainland too. Also, Silt Striders are extinct, as far as we know so travel around Morrowind would be limited greatly.

2. No no, I asked for a dialogue piece from Ulfric himself. Though, it is amusing that the first person on that list is literally harassing people like a feminist yelling "WE'RE OPPRESSED CAN'T YOU FEEL THE OPPRESSION WE ARE VICTIMS". Even the other dark elves and an argonian (though this conversation was cut because of the ban) are getting sick of his shit.

I'd also like to point out that because there were scripted conversations between dunmer and saxhleel, as well as the bloodworks being cut from windhelm, the ban of argonians entering the city was not planned, and added later on to account for technical difficulties, or simply running out of time. It's explainable within the lore on Ulfric's page, but also more likely to be an issue within development, which would explain why they recorded lines for interaction. So racism or game limitations? I will agree that the dark elf situation is entirey on him, though.

3. The argonians did not raid by sea, as far as I'm aware. Just because they did release their slaves at that time, we know in the second era they did start taking them again. The geographical positions meant they were an easy target, it's that simple. And yet she agreed to do it, if she didn't want the job she could've resigned, simple as that. They are not immune to scrutiny, or stereotyping. One bad apple spoils the bunch, it's the same in real life. If your neighnbour's son stole your TV, would you still trust the entire family? There are always doubts, and the city of Windhelm just so happens to have acted on these doubts. Just look at the Khajiit, banned from every city equally because of their poor reputations.

I was actually referencing real events from world war 2, where jews and hebrews saved germans, and vice versa. Just because you would be bitter (and stereotyping) does not mean everyone can and will.

4. Yes, this is before the battle of the Red Ring. However, since the Reachmen were there for such a long time without any resistance, it does not make sense that Ulfric would wait so long to retaliate, if he is so influential. Ulfric's challenge was in the "old nord way" so there is no way to confirm or deny that Torygg's death was guaranteed, though even Torygg himself knew that the fight would be lethal and accepted this. Yes, he does use the word high king in a few sentences, however there is more evidence to suggest that his quest for the throne is not for personal gain, as he does not claim the Windhelm throne is his, he claims it as his father's and Ysgramor's and hopes he can "live up to" their legacies.

It was not him who suggested that Whiterun's neutrality was an act of disrespect, but Galmar's saying "If he's not with us, he's against us".

Bonus:

Yes, there are redguards on both sides, just like the nords. However, it's difficult to discern races from the foot soldiers, as bretons and imperials share similar facial features and hairstyles, while imperials are also able to be as dark as redguards in skin tone. I suppose it's which kind of equality you value more, supposed racial equality, or gender equality. Nords are based off actual vikings who respected women just as much as men, while Imperials are based off the romans, who did not. I'd also like to point out that Hammerfell is an independant country, who was traded off by the empire as part of a treaty, and then freed itself with a revolution similar to the stormcloaks, except the empire did not intervene. They are infinitely more likely to join Ulfric's cause than oppose it like you suggest.

I think you've misunderstood my point about High Rock. High Rock does not interfere with Skyrim's civil war. It does not like the Thalmor regime has a strong presence in High Rock, but because of the adamantine tower, they would still be there. It isn't too fond of the Redguards, however it is even less fond of the Thalmor regime, and since Skyrim's independance would cut off all trade with Cyrodiil, an alliance would be it's best chance of cultural survival. Basically like an ebonheart pact 2.0 except with humans who hate eachother.

No, it's not, but it represents the overall state of the empire. If all of the normally functioning guilds are still scrambling to get together, how do you expect in 20 years a country that was decimated by war for years will rebuild itself to peak condition? Yes, the imperials could crush the stormcloaks, if they open their borders which is an illogical move, and as Tullius says, the empire is ''stretched thin. ''Simply having the numbers doesn't mean you can use them, so they're pretty much useless in the context of the civil war. Yes, Skyrim is shitty at the moment I'm not denying this, and never did. Cyrodiil is also weak at the moment, but I did not say "weaker than", just "not at full strength". The empire may be wiser, but it's nowhere near the level it was during the great war, and can't handle another one.

Indirect aid to both sides actually. All those "talos worshippers" are named as Stormcloak soldier in-game, so they are taking people who've already joined to anger their families into joining, which is simultaneously reducing and increasing numbers to keep in a pattern with the rate of people joining and deserting the legion. The dialogue where the guy talks about his cousin, is a rumor. "Some say the thalmor grabbed him". This is not proven true or false anywhere. It keeps the stalemate fresh, giving the illusion that the war is still in full motion.

Bethesda decides what is lore friendly, meaning whatever they want to put in the games is acceptable. Take the Khajiit race, at first they were the Ohmes, an elf-like race. In Daggerfall, they were changed to the Ohmes-raht, the neko people. In Morrowind, they were changed again to the Suthay, a proper anthropomorphic species, because bethesda wanted to. In Oblivion and Skyrim, they became the Suthay-raht, simply the suthay but with more mannish legs and the ability to wear boots. Whatever is put into the game becomes canon, and the lore serves to cushion the blow. The giants, while cut are technically still potential canon, as they may be mentioned in the lore later on. It is God Howard's choice, not ours.