Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-71.91.107.58-20140401194503/@comment-24590102-20140404065833

Coppermantis wrote: Smoking.Chimp wrote: Coppermantis wrote: Smoking.Chimp wrote: Dare I suggest that the Romans had already developed the idea of universal suffrage some 2000 years before it was first tabled in a non-Roman parliament. If we consider the Empire of Tamriel to be a comparable state then, it is quite conceivable that the necessary conversion from a monarchy to a republic would also result in a mix of states which are either federated within the republic or confederated to the republic as independent territories. I think that's happened before too.

The struggle against people who would oppose the new system could be a key feature and I think the Thalmor would try to swing things away from the new reforms with lots of cloak and dagger action. This could make for a very interesting episode - and would set the stage for very satisfying, "Sorry, but this treaty is between you and the Empire, which no longer exists." conclusion. :^)

I've always been fond of the Empire, but I think it would make a better Republic  :^) A republic would be cool, but given the current political climate in Tamriel, any unified continent-wide government would not be something I'd expect many provinces to support given the strong "independence" culture developing in many locations. Morrowind, Hammerfell, Skyrim, and Black Marsh have all recently gained or fought for independence, and to join together in a Republic, even one with universal enfranchisement, would not be a popular move. I feel like the leaders of the various countries would rather retain total sovereignty than deal with the difficulties and issues of joining together.

In addition to the obvious logistical problems, there would be the Thalmor issue you mention. Interestingly, that conclusion was one that America tried on France after the Revolution--"Listen, we promised to pay you guys for your help, but now that the old government doesn't exist anymore, we don't have to." Somehow, I don't think that the Thalmor would be ones to accept such a claim. In America's case, I don't think the dissolution of government argument could have worked so well given that the French would have negotiated the agreement with the provisional government or government to be - as opposed to the old government which the revolution disssolved. But other issues come into play as well. People seceding from a treaty-bound government cannot be bound by that treaty themselves because the whole point of their secession is that they are no longer part of the country or its obligations - just as is the point of immigration. So the government which emerges from the secession is, likewise, a foreign government born without obligations other than those drafted into its bill of rights, constitution or articles of association as dictated by agreement among the secessionists.

In fact, I think Hammerfell got the ball rolling in the right direction here. If the other provinces were to secede from the Empire and ally themselves together under a confederacy, the Thalmor still won't accept it. However, if secessions flow in the correct order, any Thalmor troops deployed will be cut off from supply by the next seceding province. And when the dust settles, there is no more Empire and no more White-Gold Concordat. But, there is still space for the natural progress into republics within provinces which have reached that point in their historical and cultural development - and, of course, the disunity sowed by the White-Gold Concordat would be largely undone. I was actually referring to the French Revolution. America had agreed to compensate the Bourbon Monarchy, which was deposed by the Revolution. As such, America no longer felt that it had to pay its debts to an entity that no longer existed. One can imagine that the French were not pleased, given how debt-ridden their country was both before, during, and after the Revolution. Amusingly, it was America who ended up helping solve that problem by buying the Louisiana territory from Napoleon. Go figure, huh? In any case, I was unclear. Sorry about that.

I do like what you propose based off of Hammerfell's model. This would definitely be a step in the right direction. This would no way discourage the Thalmor from continuing their aggression, but it would certainly be disruptive. Though, assuming that Cyrodiil maintained their current leadership, they might just impose the restrictions upon that single province. At that point, though, there would probably be an alliance formed against the Thalmor that Cyrodiil would inevitably join, leading either to the Congressional model that I proposed or your Roman-style republic.

I had no idea about the American connection to the Bourbon Monarchy. I've never taken history seriously because there's too much revisionism and emphasis on the historian and not enough emphasis on verifiable and probative facts in my view. But I do appreciate greatly little snippets of news-gone-by like this. I don't know if there's a saying for this, but it would seem more economical to collect on ones debts before burning ones bridges. What is the word? Oups!

I don't think that the confederation of seceding states would have to change the largely legion-aspect of what would evolve into a body of confederate legions. As for Cyrodiil, having their Skyrim buddies "annex" Cyrodiil to disolve the last remnant of the Empire would superficially be irreconcileable with any idea of the continuation of the White-Gold Concordat - particularly if the Nords raised the Talos worship ban as their publicly declared pretext for "annexing" Cyrodiil. But, it would prove to be yet another case of the more things change, the more they stay the same. After all, other than Skyrim, where else would you most likely find another believable dragonborn/dragon-blood to fill the big chair? This is where your republic is born and it fits because the Nords, with their moots, are almost there. The only thing missing is the development of a universal suffrage concept which would lead to the plebeians gaining the vote.

I can just imagine. the dialogue:

"Put those amulets away! I shall call the Justiciars if you don't. For your information, Talos worship is banned under the terms of the White-Gold Concordat."

Well, the Empire was bound by those terms, while it still existed. But as you know, the Empire's lost all provinces - and is no longer here and, well, you Aldmeri Dominion types have only yourselves to blame for that."

"But... But... Cyrodiil, is the Empire! Know your place."

"I'm so sorry, but you had better take that up with High King Capendectius. Never mind the what the equivalent is in Norse - we can't pronounce it either. Anyway, High King Capendectius of Skyrim, First of his Name, Lover of Dragons, Father of Trolls, Jarl of Solitude and Protector of the Confederate Tamrielic League of Liberated Free Republics...   ....is currently in Solitude now with a couple hundred justiciars. I don't know what High King Capendectius plans to do with them but he kept saying that, as a show of goodwill to our dear friends in Alinor and in special celebration of the liberation of Cyrodiil, he'd decided to take personal care of one of the Empire's many unpaid debts."