Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26356342-20150901000903

S&#039;Dalaar the Snowcat wrote: Sorry for the late reply. My schedule has been a real pain and has prevented me from writing longer posts.

Well Welcome back! You have missed 2 minor arguments about semantics that went way out of control. (So really you missed nothing of value)

I figured from dialogues in game, that Ulfric's hatred against the Empire came from the Markarth Incident. It is where the rebellion supposedly start. It is also mentioned in the Thalmor Dossier that Ulfric was "becoming generally uncooperative" after the Empire's betrayal..... Also, how was reclaiming Markarth illegal?....

If he wasnt already bitter towards the Imperials, why did he specifically ask for free worship of Talos? Why was it ever even brought up at all? It seems deliberate. When I said it was Illegal, I dont mean Ulfric saving everyone, but the fact he wouldnt hand over control to the Empire. Technically the Empire owns Skyrim, so when they showed up and he refused to hand over control, that'd be like If i changes the locks on my house and refused to let the landlord in. Ulfric making any demands and refusing to hand over the city makes it illegal. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but by definition, Ulfric's militia would be no better then bandits capturing a city.

But they did lie. I'm pretty sure the Imperials realized that the Dominion would figure out sooner than late. Keeping ones word only to plan of going back on it is not being truthful.

Maybe they thought they could keep their word? I dunno... But also, when someone takes a hostage and demands a Helicopter, even when you see the Helicopter, you KNOW they arent leaving in that helicopter... By which I mean, we both agree Ulfric was naive to think the Empire would have stuck to that.

Really, if the Empire didn't want a war that could mean losing plenty of troops, the reclaiming of Markarth would have been ideal to secede Skyrim peacefully.

Well, like I previously mentioned, Had the Empire simply let the incident go, it sets a dangerous precedent, it says the Empire will allow anyone with force to come, claim a city, make demands, and the Empire will listen. What then stops the forsworn from attempting the same thing to gain an exchange of their King from the mine? But to make matters worse it was Ulfric, the son of a Jarl, who did save everyone, it was a delicate situation that admittedly could have been handled better by both sides, but I still personally blame Ulfric, as the Empire is acting the same way ANY sort of leader power would have acted. Ulfric was instigating a fight when there didn't need to be one. Hand control back to the Empire, let them be the ones to stop Talos worship, and remind everyone how much better it was when Ulfric was watching over them. He could have let the Empire make enemies of themselves without having to DO anything.

Yes, it doesn't specifically say in the WGC that they can't help other provinces. But this could be seen as a provocation by the other side and, in the intrest of relations, the Empire would not help the enemies of the Thalmor(at least not officially). The Empire, judging from their decisions they have made in the past, is more likely to cave in over a threat of war than the Dominion.

Here we get a bit too far into speculation. The major factor is the Emperor possibly being dead (or definitely). Who's to say the next in line will be as "spineless" (for lack of a better term) as Titus was? But that aside, If the terms of an alliance were "and then you help me take out the dominion" yes, I could see them throwing a fit, but just political alliances or trade supply alliances don't spark red flags for them to have justifiable cause to do anything about it. While the Empire has the primary concern of maintaining the peace, I don't believe they would allow the Dominion to tell them who they could and could not make relations with, that oversteps the bounds of the treaty. It is a Cold war state after all, even with the Thalmor putting pressure on the Empire, they are in the same boat, they don't want to go to war yet either, they just want to cause trouble. Its not as if they have 3 times the forces and are just messing with the empire before total

I will refer to my statement that Skyrim could not wage war on their terms due to the heavy Imperial influence in Skyrim and its ruler; the High King. Also, it is said: "Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty." Basically, they didn't object the treaty by keep fighting the Thalmor. They kept fighting after the Empire renounced the province and pulled the truth out.

I will say this, IN skyrim, there wasn't really any dominion to "keep fighting" So I can see where them saying "we don't agree to these terms" doesn't amount to much. But once you had actual enforcers there, AND you had a militia, AND a seat of power, why was the militia used to fight the Empire? Why kill the king? why siege and destroy the very land you claim to want to protect? How many citizens die when Ulfric attempts to take Whiterun? or when he takes Solitude? So sure he couldnt outright reject the terms and keep fighting the war when it wasn't in Skyrim, but once you had their Justicars there taking people in the night, Ulfric should have met with those Jarls (half of skyrim) who agreed with him and refused to let them roam free in Skyrim (as per part of the treaty) If the High King was still alive, and half your Jarls are refusing the terms of the treaty I honestly think Torygg would have HAD to tell the Empire "sorry, we're seceding".

I doubt the law against Talos wasn't entirely enforced. Why would Nords have secret shrines in their homes in the Imperials didn't care? Why would Ulfric even bring up the Talos worship as an issue if Skyrim was completely unaffected? Gerdur, along with dialogue from Stormcloak soldiers, hinted that the Thalmor was dragging people of even before the rebellion began. I am sure the enforcing of the Talos ban was made temporarily worse due to the rebellion, but I would say it had already had a prominent effect on the lives of Nords.

Well for me we still see plenty of Talos Shrines, such as the temple in markarth, the one sin the homes, etc, But also as you and I already established the Empire isnt above saying one thing and doing another such as promising a Talos ban and then not doing it. Or doing the bare minimum (like removing the shrine from churches in major cities) and claiming they've banned it. But we certainly have no evidence of the Empire ever arresting anyone for it.

There has always been trouble in Tamriel. But the Septim Empire has always been able to hold itself together. That is why the Septim Empire was so strong and successful. Unbreakable, until the end of the Third Era. Now? It's falling apart. Which sucks, believe me. But why should the provinces be punished for the Empire's decadence and errors? That is why I, personally, can't feel sympathy for the Mede Empire. They only have themselves to blame for their miseries.

I Agree and disagree here, I mean when I hear people talk about the Septim's they really just mean Tiber. I mean Pelagius, was murdered by the dark brotherhood in the temple of the one for not being as good as Tiber was.. then it was Kintyra, who didnt seem to have any problems at all. same with Uriel I, no real issues to really say they were good or bad. But then We get to Uriel II, whose rule was described as being "cursed with blights, plagues and insurrections" He also threw the Empire into massive debt, that his son Pelagius II had to clean up after. Then there was Antiochus, who might as well been the definition of decadence. then Kintyra II with Uriel III starting a coup, Cephorus spent most of his time fighting in the war of the red diamond that started back when Kintyra ruled, followed by Magnus who spent most of HIS time punishing people for the War of the red diamond. then came Pelagius III or "Pelagius the mad" followed by Katariah, his wife, a dunmer, and marked as being "the true decline" and on and on and on and on it goes. By comparrison the Mede Dynasty just conquered the Imperial city, and then Titus Mede II inherited what was left of the Empire. Bottom line is, the Septim Dynasty wasn't perfect, or even a perfect example of how the Empire should be run. Titus Mede I and II both were doomed from the start since the Dominion was making their moves well before the Medes appeared on the scene. The Septims just held together the name really, not their legacy.

I dont think Skyrim needs the Empire as much as the Empire needs Skyrim. They Empire lives only through the blood of the other provinces. Also, even if the Dominion have 3 nations at their disposal, there are atill 4 nations(united or not) against them. I dont see the odds changing just because they don't fight under the same banner.

I defer to Balgruuf on this point when he states: "Mutual advantage! Any fool can see that. For centuries, we have benefited from the Empire's protection, and prosperous trade with the south. In exchange, the people of Cyrodiil sleep peacefully, knowing their northern border is guarded by the fiercest warriors in all Tamriel." To me it sounds like Cyrodiil mostly uses Skyrim for its warriors, while Skyrim uses the Empire for trade. If thats to be taken at face value, Skyrim not part of the Empire means Cyrodiil loses troops, and Skyrim loses much of its trade. Again I understand not all trade would just up and disappear, but when a nation becomes independent new deals and agreements need to be made, possibly new taxes added, etc etc, it wouldnt be so easy as just "oh you can keep making your usual trades, we just dont support your country in war".

I strongly disagree. It only makes sense, if the Dominion decides to focus on Cyrodiil again. But they already tried that once and failed. The Thalmor don't intend to lose again. They may try other approaches. Perhaps divide some of their forces to attack Skyrim, thus cutting of the only escape route left for the Legion(since Hammerfell won't accept him and the border to High Rock is covered by tall mountains.) The thought of taking away all of Skyrim's manpower and put them in Cyrodiil is most unsettling.

The Dominion owned Cyodiil for a while. While it didnt end that way, they did it. if it was done once, and the Empire hasnt had too much time to recover, it could be done again. This time they dont need to worry about splitting their troops to Hammerfell, OR (if they no longer hold Skyrim) worrying the Nords will come swooping in. Skyrim will have to go south into Cyrodiil to fight them eventually anyway should the Empire fall to the elves again, either that or allow the enemy to sit at their doorstep, or worse yet, allow them into Skyrim to fight them. But if you believe they'll be taking the fight to the elves anyways, the safer bet is fighting them far from Skyrim, not letting them get closer. What are they doing otherwise but sitting and waiting for the elves to come to them? (which doesnt sound very Nord-like at all).