Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-1600847-20161103125247/@comment-26893431-20161103145824

Terawolf119 wrote: How Roigvar was inocent! Thought I’d take the time to address this execution. First, lets start out with why Roggvir is being executed.

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Roggvir was charged with treason for letting Ulfric go out the gates of Solitude, right? Well first, lets look at the obvious. There are two gates to the city of Solitude

So right off the bat, we have a problem. There should be at LEAST two if not more guards guarding the gates to the biggest city in Skyrim, right? So, why is Roggvir the only person being executed?

Second point, the duel was accepted by the High King, and the court watched as it happened right? So what happened after he was dead? Did Ulfric flee as they said they did? If he did flee, that would mean guards were called to apprehend him right? And if they were…how did Ulfric manage to get all the way through the biggest city in Skyrim on foot with a bunch of angry guards chasing him?

I don’t think they did call the guards, because if they did, Ulfric would have been apprehended. And if they did, one of the guards surely would have stopped Ulfric at the gates. Why? Because they didn’t see the duel! They didn’t know what happened! You can’t guard a gate and be in the Blue Palace courtyard! So Roggvir didn’t even know what happened! If there were guards chasing Ulfric, he’d have certainly stopped him because he’d have no idea what he did and would assume he committed a crime.

This means that the court and Solitude must have recognized that the King accepted a duel by Nord law, and they all let Ulfric go. If so, then the Imperials probably came later and told them they were dumb asses for letting him go, and that Imperial law makes it illegal. Elisif likely was only too happy to say it was murder instead of a duel, and then put blame on Roggvir so Solitude didn’t look bad. Think about it, the Empire never mentions a duel, and when Sybille mentions it, she lies and says Torygg was shouted apart, but Ulfric tells us the truth. For those who don’t trust Ulfric’s word, here’s the developer notes on Sybille’s dialogue.

Roggvir probably didn’t find out till later what Ulfric did. This clearly is pointing to Roggvir being innocent of the charges of treason, and the Empire executed an innocent man. Disagree? Well ask yourself. Why wasn’t Elisif’s court or Elisif herself in trouble? Obviously because the Empire needs them. Well why wasn’t there at least a second guard executed? Even if you think Ulfric was running from guards, you can’t get around that. Ulfric was not being chased, and the guards at the gate did not know the king was killed. As I said, if Ulfric was being chased, they’d have stopped him by default because of their lack of knowledge on the situation, and if they did know and let him loose, there should be other guards charged with treason.

The Empire allows laws when it suits them, and only when it suits them. The killing of Torygg was not something they wanted, so they chose to get involved instead of letting the moot commence. If you think they had no choice, I wouldn’t disagree necessarily, as allowing Ulfric to secede Skyrim would be an unrealistic expectation. But then, that’s what I would have said about them letting the Thalmor arrest citizens. They claimed to do that for the greater good, so why not let Skyrim secede and then be allies with them for the greater good? After all, they allowed slavery in Morrowind because it benefited them:

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Armistice Additionally, and perhaps most importantly in the minds of Dunmer elites, the practice of slavery in Morrowind was protected by the Empire.[11]

 Nels the Naughty was right!

Nels the Naughty, a Nord barbarian, is a guest at Summitmist Manor in Skingrad. His daughter, Olga, was killed by bandits during a raid on his village in Skyrim and the local garrison of the Imperial Legion did nothing to stop it. For this reason, he dislikes soldiers like Neville and regards them as “useless, uncaring tools of corruption”.



Some more support, Ulfric and his men fought for their people with the promise that they would be allowed to worship Talos, despite the law. They were betrayed and arrested. They probably would've been executed there had they not escaped. I'd start a rebellion too if my government screwed me like that.

 Not ALL stormcloaks are racist. Do a lot of them show preference to their own people? Absolutely. During times of war, it's only natural to show a bit of pride for your own people. Some people will take it too far and that is lamentable, but racism on a national scale does not usually last forever. There will always be racists, but it will not remain government policy forever if they expect to get anything accomplished.



I always hear people talk about how those stormcloaks were harassing that dark elf woman in Windhelm. Was that wrong? Absolutely. Those guards were dbags but they're not the entire nord population. You can't judge a group baced on a couple of low rank idiots. No one mentions the Battle-Born harassing the old woman worried about her son. They support the empire. One of them is wearing imperial armor so I assume he's in the legion. They basically tell the woman if she doesn't shut up she'll be executed for treason. Is that good? Absolutely not. You can't judge the entire empire based on this but you can certainly use that as a counter-argument for the windhelm incident.

Many claim the empire will collapse from the instability if Skyrim leaves the empire. Good. Let it crumble. The Empire has failed and the Thalmor have already won. The "peace treaty" is nothing more than fancy terms of surrender. Like it or not, the Thalmor are the ones running the show now. They just let the public think the Empire still has a say. All sings in Skyrim show that they do not.

It's time for the other nations to take care of their own. They won't lie down so easily and I think some of you put too much faith in the Thalmor's ability to conquer every rogue nation they encounter. Without imperial support the Thalmor wil be figthing a war on numerous fronts and they will lose.

Just look at skyrim. All those mountains forests and caves and ruins? Perfect places to set up gorilla hideouts. The Thalmor will end up like the British fighting the colonists. They will stand no chance of conquering Skyrim without imperial support.

My final gripe agains the Empire. Torture Chambers and public executions. It's time for these lackeys to the Dominion to be brought down.



''' "Ulfric & the Stormcloaks are racist". '''

Probably the most common argument against the Stormcloaks. But what if I told you this argument was actually wrong? Well, let's go over it shall we? Let's start with the Gray Quarter, most people think that Ulfric forces all of Windhelm's Dunmer to live in the slum known as the Gray Quarter. But with some research you would realize this to be quite untrue. The Dunmer are not forced to live anywhere. The live in nanny for the Cruel-Seas, and the owner of the Hlaalu farm do not. If Ulfric truly wanted to segregate them why do two Dunmer not live there? Consider this, the Dunmer probably moved to Windhelm right after the eruption of the Red Mountain or the Argonian invasion. Both of witch happened before Ulfric was Jarl. So they must've lived in the Gray Quarter before Ulfric was in power. For whatever reason it must've fallen apart and became what it is today. You might be thinking, "Why doesn't Ulfric fix it?" He's in the middle of a war, it's a rebellion fighting an Empire, it's not going to be easy. Another reason is if they did ruin it on their own, it's not Ulfric's responsibility to fix it. If they destroyed it on their own, why would the Jarl have to spend tax payers dollers to fix something that's not even city property? The next is the Argonians, I actually don't think they are completely forbidden from entering the city. It's never said they can't go in at all? It's just said they can't live in it. Maybe they can't live in it because their is no room. Do you know four empty houses in Windhelm they could move into? Also, Shahvee bought an amulet of Zenithar. Where would she have gotten that from? Inside the city perhaps? Finallly, the Khajiit Caravans aren't allowed in any cities, Stormcloak or Imperial. So you can't just blame the Stormcloaks for that.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"Ulfric just wants to be High King".

<p style="font-weight:normal;">This is actually a baseless assumption for the most part. Because nothing in the game shows this. He actually has shown to be the opposite. Just the way I have seen him acting towards Galmar has shown that to me. You could give the argument that he's faking it, but why? Galmar is his second in command, I don't think he would have to hide much from him. I feel that this is a very weak argument with little to no basis in reality.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"Ulfric cheated in his duel with Torygg because he used the Thu'um to murder Torygg".

<p style="font-weight:normal;">What people fail to realize is that it doesn't matter how Ulfric won the duel. It was supposed to show that if the High King couldn't protect himself, how was he supposed to protect Skyrim? Ulfric, a Jarl could do that better then Troygg, a High King. Which shows that Ulfric deserved the position more then Torygg. If someone is trying to hurt Skyrim, they aren't going to try and be fair. They're going to try and destroy it. You as High King should be able to protect it from that.

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> "The Stormcloaks don't stand a chance against the Dominion".

<p style="font-weight:normal;">First of all, the Nords have been fighting Elves for years. Why would the Dominion be any different? Most would say, "the whole Empire couldn't beat them, how would only the Nords do it?". Actually, though the Empire was wounded, the Dominion was also very weakened. Their main general was killed and every soldier in Cyordiil. That was one of the largest armies ever assmbled in Elven history. And since Elves reproduce slower, they would probably have a much harder time recovering. Hammerfell alone was able to beat them, and they were just as hurt as Cyordiil from the Great War, they also had a civil war between the Crowns and the Forbears before that. So Hammerfell was not in a good position and yet they still beat the Dominion. Why can't Skyrim? Also, they could make an allaince with Hammerfell and the two of them could work together. Also, the Stormcloaks offered High Rock an allaince, they didn't instantly reject them which shows that they might be thinking about it. These three nations would put up one hell of a fight for the Dominion.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"The Thalmor Dossier says that Ulfric is a pawn of the Thalmor, so if the Stormcloaks win you're helping the Thalmor".

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Not entirely true. The reason the Thalmor would consider him an asset is because he might help start a war in Skyrim. That's what the Thalmor want, a long drawn bloody war. They actually say in the Dossier "A Stormcloak victory is to be avoided". If the war is ended quickly the Thalmor won't get the benefit because little lives and resources will have been lost.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"In the Bear of Markarth in said that Ulfric tourted innocent people and killed anyone who didn't help him".

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The Bear of Markarth is pure propaganda. The author is an Imperial scholar as well as a Forsworn sympathizer. If Ulfric truly killed tortued and killed all of those innocents that were on the other side, why doesn't he kill any Jarls or citizens that support the Empire? He actully does out of his way to spear them. Also, if Ulfric truly killed everyone who didn't help him, why isn't he doing that with the Stormcloaks? It would actually go against what they say in game. Galmar says that the Stormcloaks only accept people good, honest, warriors, who actually want to join. Another thing is why doesn't anyone in Cidnha Mine talk about Ulfric? If he did all of these bad things, I'm pretty sure they would have some bad things to say about him, right? But nope, they say nothing about him.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">"In Sovngarde Ulfric admits his cause was wrong".

<p style="font-weight:normal;">No, he actually doesn't. He's upset the war started at the time it did because since so many soldiers were dying a lot more souls were in Sovngarde for Alduin to eat. So he's upset about that, nothing about him being wrong.

<p style="font-weight:normal;margin-bottom:0px!important;">Overall, I feel the Empire was wrong for signing the White-Gold Concordat. They could've beaten the Dominion if they just kept fighting (for the reasons I explained). And I've heard all of these arguments against the Stormcloaks freqently and I just wanted to give my two cents about it.

How Roigvar was inocent!

1. There are two gate guards, one inside the gate and one outside the gate, remember Kvatch? Gates are opened and closed through the use of a lever system, a system that Roggvir would've been operating when Ulfric came. Or, if we look at Skyrim, we have Riften, a gate is locked and Roggvir unlocked it for Ulfric, either way, Roggvir is to blame, not the other guard.

2. Answer: Thu'um.

3. They didn't let Ulfric go, if Ulfric won legally, he would've been High King by right and been seated on the throne, reason he had to escape is because he murdered Torygg. The Court didn't accept it. Torygg was killed by the Voice, this is a fact, loading screens, Hold guards, Torygg, Stentor and Elisif all say so. Of course the murderer won't admit to his murder.

Ulfric's rebellion was already ongoing for a couple of years prior to Torygg's death, Roggvir no doubt supported Ulfric and, when he saw him run from the guards, unlocked the gates to let him go, due to his treason. Roggvir opening the gate doesn't mean other guards supported him, in fact, Roggvir probably got swarmed when he allowed Ulfric to escape.

They recognised the challenge, not the way how Ulfric went about it. Ulfric cheated, it was murder regardless.

4. It's not the Empire that's keeping the Moot from meeting, it's Ulfric. 'When the Moot meets we're backing Elisif, they'll do the sensible thing.' -Tullius

'Damn the moot!' -Ulfric

Ulfric is the one preventing the Moot from gathering, not the Empire.

Slavery

The Empire didn't want to go up against 3 bloody demigods backed by one of the most powerful nations on Tamriel. When Vivec appeared, the Empire agreed to a treaty, since they got offered the Numidium, which they needed against the Dominion. And they didn't allow slavery because it benefitted them, but because it was part of the Armistice. The Empire was also pushing to the ban of slavery, something Hlaalu Helseth did near the end of the Third Era.

Nels

<p style="font-weight:normal;">We don't know what was going on at the time, what we do know is that the Nords were busy with fighting the Imperial forces on Solstheim, so does it surprise you that the Legion had its time of trouble trusting the words of a Nord? Not to forget, as I said, we don't know what the Legion outpost he went to was busy with.

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<p style="font-weight:normal;">More support

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Ulfric had no right to retake Markarth to begin with, let alone, keep the Empire out. He had commited a crime regardless and the Empire never said the Talos worship was permanent.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">It will not be a government policy? Ulfric segregates the Dunmer and the Argonians, his guards don't aid the Dunmer either and the Dunmer have to live in a slum. It already is a government policy when Ulfric is Jarl.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Yes, they have lived for generations with one another, then Ulfric came around in 4E 176 and the entire population of Windhelm starts seeing Dunmer and Argonians as trash, they won't return to their old ways under Stormcloak rule.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">He doesn't say that she'll be executed, he says she should keep her mouth shut before she gets the same fate as Thorald. Everyone knows that she backs the Stormcloaks.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Thalmor

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Your ignorance regarding the WGC won't safe your point, best to keep ignorant speculations out of here if you want to come off as at least a little bit intelligent.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The Dominion could've won the Great War, it doesn't matter what you say 'but the mountains' 'but the snow' the lore states they could've won, so they could've won. Period. Skyrim will be weak after a Stormcloak victory and unable to recover quickly.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Torture

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Because the Stormcloaks don't execute and have torture chambers? This has to be a very pathetic excuse. Go to the Riften, Winterhold and Eastmarch jails and listen to what Skald the Elder has to say, they do it just as easy as the Empire.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> "Ulfric & the Stormcloaks are racist". 

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Every Dunmer who lives on his own is forced to live in the slum, including the farmer you mentioned, his name is Beyn Hlaalu and his house is the first house on your left when entering the Grey Quarter when coming from the Temple of Talos. Secondly, it is city property and the Dunmer pay taxes, so yes, he does have to fix it. The Dunmer themselves state that they have to live there, because they do. Ulfric made a decree that forbids Argonians from living inside the city walls, so even if 90% of Windhelm's population died, they wouldn't be allowed in, due to Ulfric's racism.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">

<p style="font-weight:normal;">' "Ulfric just wants to be High King". '

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> This is true, best evidence?

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> Before a Stormcloak victory:

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> Ulfric 'Damn the Jarls! Damn the Moot!'

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Aftert a Stormcloak victory:

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Ulfric: 'The Moot will meet'

<p style="font-weight:normal;">He's only in it for the throne, he doesn't care about tradition.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">

<p style="font-weight:normal;">''' "Ulfric cheated in his duel with Torygg because he used the Thu'um to murder Torygg". '''

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> A good warrior doesn't need to make a good king. Or would you like a bloody Daedra to rule over Skyrim? Ulfric can't even keep his own Hold safe, how is he meant to keep Skyrim safe? A ruler of a country seeks to improve it, and not just force-recruit soldiers. A good king understands how to do politics, something Ulfric doesn't understand.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> The Stormcloaks don't stand a chance against the Dominion  

<p style="font-weight:normal;"> The Nords have also lost all of their foreign territory -- including the parts ruled by Mer. It wasn't one of their largest armies ever assembled, nowhere is it stated. They also have Khajiit, not to forget, a large population due to them being able to get twice to thrice as old as the races of man. Hammerfell didn't beat them, they fought them to a standstill then asked for a treaty, the Dominion wasn't going full-force on Hammerfell. Stop comparing Skyrim to Hammerfell, the are not similar in the slightest. They won't make an alliance, the Nords hold two cities of Hammerfell. The Bretons ignored it, if Ulfric's request even ever arrived there.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">

<p style="font-weight:normal;">'''"The Thalmor Dossier says that Ulfric is a pawn of the Thalmor, so if the Stormcloaks win you're helping the Thalmor". '''

<p style="font-weight:normal;">The Thalmor consider him an asset because he's a dormant (uncooperative) ex-Thalmor agent. Ulfric already started a war. The Empire still loses Skyrim, which is something preferable to the Dominion.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">

<p style="font-weight:normal;">'''"In the Bear of Markarth in said that Ulfric tourted innocent people and killed anyone who didn't help him". '''

<p style="font-weight:normal;">Him being an Imperial scholar doesn't prove the book wrong, it isn't propaganda. Why? Because Ulfric is scared of the full might of the Empire, killing off every single Imperial-supporter would not only harm Skyrim's economy, it would draw the Legion to Skyrim. Because this is different, Ulfric was fighting Reachmen, not Nords, he cares for Nords, not for Reachmen. Galmar also says that he wonders about the intentions of a non-Nord trying to join the Stormcloaks... Ever heard of the Massacre at Karthwasten? Probably not, wonder why? Because nobody over at Karthwasten speaks of it. Nepos the Nose confirms the Bear of Markarth, and tries to kill you afterwards because 'you know too much'.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">

<p style="font-weight:normal;">'''"In Sovngarde Ulfric admits his cause was wrong". '''

<p style="font-weight:normal;">He doesn't say his cause was wrong, just that it was his fate to lose.

<p style="font-weight:normal;">

<p style="font-weight:normal;margin-bottom:0px!important;">They couldn't have beaten the Dominion, this is canon lore.

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