The Elder Scrolls Wiki:Moot/Log September 2019


 * 4:24: Atvelonis: uhh ok let's just summarize the point that Cat wanted to bring up
 * 4:24: Rozty: are we going to discuss the topic without cat master though
 * 4:25: Atvelonis: We don't have to do a vote, it's worth explaining beforehand, in case he brings it up next time
 * 4:25: Atvelonis: or later
 * 4:25: Atvelonis: so his topic was this: "Character list pages; I assume the new system may be designed for efficiency. I'm concerned new or inexperienced editors who may want edit those pages probably won't know what's going on. I had to ask another staff member how they work."
 * 4:25: Atvelonis: see Characters (Online)/A
 * 4:25: Atvelonis: this is in fact not a manually created table, but an auto-generated DPL table
 * 4:25: Atvelonis: Template:CharactersDPL
 * Quinton1721 has left the chat.
 * 4:26: TinyClayMan: >ask another staff member how they work
 * 4:26: Rupuzioks: and just with the one adjustment they can be permanent
 * 4:26: Atvelonis: It has documentation explaining the exact functionality. But the gist is that it looks at the infobox parameters of members of a given category and creates a table based off that
 * 4:26: Rupuzioks: just add subst: to every parser function or template
 * 4:26: Atvelonis: The advantage of doing it this way is that we only have to update everything once: in the infoboxes, instead of in both the infoboxes and the character list pages
 * 4:26: Rozty: the problem is with new editors figuring out how to edit them right?
 * 4:27: Atvelonis: Right, that can be slightly confusing
 * 4:27: TinyClayMan: The columns are using the values of tenplate's parameters?
 * 4:27: Atvelonis: Yes
 * 4:27: TinyClayMan: Template's*
 * 4:27: Atvelonis: Rupuzioks added this note whenever the template is used:
 * 4:27: Atvelonis: "Notice: This table is generated automatically, so editing and updating it is possible only on the specific character page."
 * 4:27: Atvelonis: I think that's sufficient, it tells them that they can't edit it on the main page
 * 4:28: TinyClayMan: The notice is noticeable, so I think it is use-friendly
 * 4:28: TinyClayMan: User-friendly*
 * 4:28: Atvelonis: Yeah, I imagine most people would be able to figure it out. It's not any harder than transclusion
 * 4:28: Rozty: for now, we have the notice, and i don't think that new people will be editing these kinds of pages that use dpl to that extent
 * 4:29: Sakaratte: I think with DPL you have to balance off accessibility over benefits. A table like this is more beneficial than accessibility
 * 4:29: Rozty: true
 * 4:29: TinyClayMan: +
 * 4:29: Sakaratte: Sorry, I'm catching up a little, this is pretty much on an overview page right?
 * 4:30: Atvelonis: Characters (Online)/A?
 * 4:30: Atvelonis: yes just a list of npcs
 * 4:30: Rupuzioks: in my opinion the DPL is useful if the table is incomplete
 * 4:30: Rupuzioks: otherwise it should be made static
 * 4:30: Sakaratte: But what if you decide to change the tables format later?
 * 4:30: Sakaratte: And how often are these pages changed?
 * 4:31: Atvelonis: I'm not really a fan of statically duplicating content, because it doubles the amount of maintenance we require
 * 4:31: TinyClayMan: And tables like Characters are only complete at some point of time, before anything new comes up
 * 4:31: Rupuzioks: just do the substitution again with the changes in DPL
 * 4:31: Atvelonis: it also means 2x the chance of it being vandalized
 * 4:31: Rozty: idk, doesn't DPL also save us a lot of bytes since we don't need to have everything written down
 * 4:31: Atvelonis: well bytes sure. there is a performance impact though
 * 4:31: Rozty: unless the load time is significantly affected by its use i would prefer it over static
 * 4:31: Atvelonis: so we shouldn't use it frivolously. but I think this is a valid use-case
 * 4:31: Sakaratte: DPL eliminates margins of error more than anything.
 * 4:32: Atvelonis: it's not a huge performance impact if we allow cached results (which we do)
 * 4:32: Sakaratte: If you have a page with a high amount of data that is being pulled from elsewhere the chances of that page being incorrect are huge, if manually managed.
 * 4:32: TinyClayMan: Btw. We can also use it on the Books page (if we are not doing it already)
 * 4:32: Rupuzioks: it is for the games that constantly adding content in the game
 * 4:33: Atvelonis: agree saka
 * 4:33: Rozty: (pls let's use it on book pages)
 * 4:33: Atvelonis: also agree. we can look into that for sure
 * 4:33: Rupuzioks: for example Skyrim is already finished
 * 4:33: Rupuzioks: and there won't be any additions
 * 4:34: Rozty: i was thinking for eso mostly
 * 4:34: Rupuzioks: so it is better static
 * 4:34: Rozty: just eso honestly, the other games are already completed and will not be getting any new additions
 * 4:34: Atvelonis: I actually disagree, even for "completed" games I'd prefer not to manually duplicate content if we can avoid it
 * 4:34: TinyClayMan: With dpl we can create articles for book categories in ESO which are updated with every dlc
 * 4:34: Atvelonis: Because that can lead to a situation where the list page disagrees with the individual page
 * 4:34: Rozty: true, but for now we should prioritise eso
 * 4:34: Atvelonis: but for Skyrim books it's different because they rely on more than just infobox params
 * 4:34: Atvelonis: they also have a summary etc
 * 4:34: Atvelonis: so manual is the way to go for now
 * 4:35: Rupuzioks: yes, for the ESO it's definitely better use DPL
 * 4:35: Sakaratte: Also, if the content is "complete" that would imply no-one would need to understand the code to change it, because it is correct
 * 4:35: Atvelonis: good point
 * 4:35: Sakaratte: If you're never going to edit a page again, why change the format?
 * 4:35: Rozty: although that would mean that we have to create pages for all books in eso regardless of whether they appear in other games or not right?
 * 4:35: Rozty: since the infoboxes of eso books and books from other games are slightly different
 * 4:36: Atvelonis: don't think so
 * 4:36: Atvelonis: eh maybe
 * 4:36: Atvelonis: collection isn't in the main one
 * 4:36: TinyClayMan: Argh, forgot to bring that up in CT
 * 4:36: Rozty: depending on what we want to put in the table at least
 * 4:36: Atvelonis: that would be something to consider if Tiny's CT goes through yes
 * 4:36: Rupuzioks: the infobox parameters are different for each game
 * 4:36: Rupuzioks: at least in Book template
 * 4:36: Rupuzioks: not sure about OnlineBooks template
 * 4:37: TinyClayMan: It has collection parameter
 * 4:37: TinyClayMan: Other book templates don't have it
 * 4:38: Atvelonis: right
 * 4:38: TinyClayMan: And also no weight and price
 * 4:39: Rozty: what matters here is what we will be using if we end up making eso books lists with dpl right?
 * 4:39: Rozty: because if it's something that can only be found in the online template then we need to consider that for the CT also
 * 4:41: TinyClayMan: BooksDPL and BooksOnlineDPL?
 * 4:41: Rupuzioks: I think it will be harder, since books use both templates
 * 4:41: Rupuzioks: you can include either one not both
 * 4:41: Rozty: ah
 * 4:41: Rozty: that's a good argument for creating separate pages for all eso books
 * 4:42: Rupuzioks: it can be done with multiple DPLs, but the parameters will differ
 * 4:42: Rozty: that will just overcomplicate things wouldn't it
 * 4:42: Rozty: and i don't think it would display them alphabetically
 * 4:42: TinyClayMan: *another point for my CT thread*
 * 4:43: Rozty: (kappa)
 * 4:43: Atvelonis: when are you posting that, do you expect?
 * 4:44: Rupuzioks: no, it will always display them alphabetically if the DPL parameters are the same
 * 4:44: TinyClayMan: I can try to finish it next week. Most of it is already written. I will add the dpl point and post it
 * 4:45: Rupuzioks: though with different templates there will be two different lists
 * 4:47: TinyClayMan: We don't have a list for all the books from every game so it should be fine
 * 4:48: Atvelonis: any other thoughts on this?
 * 4:50: Rupuzioks: we also using DPL for Legends cards Cards
 * 4:51: Atvelonis: yeah
 * 4:51: Rozty: it was already pretty automated before too so it's not that different for cards
 * 4:51: Atvelonis: beyond that I don't think we have too much to say about DPL
 * 4:51: TinyClayMan: It can also be used for location lists
 * 4:52: Atvelonis: this is such a tiny moot that I don't really want to make an actual decision haha
 * 4:52: Atvelonis: but we can talk about that en futur
 * 4:52: Atvelonis: I have one quick thing
 * 4:52: Atvelonis: I need to go soonish but I'm just curious if people have opinions on doing editor/staff trainings in voice chat
 * 4:52: Atvelonis: on Discord
 * 4:53: Rozty: what trainings for example?
 * 4:53: Atvelonis: I often feel as though actually listening to a person and being able to engage with them while speaking can be more useful for learning than just talking through text, which can't convey much emotion and can also be slow
 * 4:53: Atvelonis: well for staff they would be different
 * 4:53: Atvelonis: For editors: teaching them how things work
 * 4:54: Sakaratte: I like the idea personally, but my thoughts on Discord at present are far from Stellar
 * 4:54: Atvelonis: technical stuff with source, you know
 * 4:54: Atvelonis: As far as staff are concerned, I have a ton of ideas on doing little chats with people about how to foster a good atmosphere, how to balance your workload, how to work positively with other people, etc.
 * 4:54: Rozty: i have no issues with using vc in discord
 * 4:54: Rozty: the issue would be that i don't think i'm good with guiding people
 * 4:55: TinyClayMan: Soft skills course?
 * 4:55: Atvelonis: yes that's a good way of putting it
 * 4:55: Rozty: even worse when i'm straight up talking and not typing everything out
 * 4:55: Rupuzioks: my speech are poor comparing to writing in English
 * 4:56: Dwemer35: Yeah, that would be nice
 * 4:56: GreyFox06: I think that could be very helpful, especially if it's a collaborative group of learners.
 * 4:56: Atvelonis: I have some experience with public speaking. To start off I figured I would be leading these, not forcing you guys to lead them, though I'm sure you'd be welcome to if you'd like
 * 4:56: Dwemer35: Although I'm not brave enough to step forward
 * 4:56: Atvelonis: Discord has some sort of "priority speaker" role that I think could help ensure that it works out
 * 4:56: Atvelonis: Could be lecture-style, or more of a discussion, or something in between. But I think that it could be interesting
 * 4:57: Rozty: yeah i'm up for it
 * 4:57: GreyFox06: A small test-run would be helpful to work out a format that works best for everyone.
 * 4:58: Atvelonis: Agreed. Maybe I can start with some stuff with the staff or experienced editors, and we can work from there
 * 4:59: Rozty: discord also has a new livestream feature that we can use
 * 4:59: Atvelonis: Oh, that's interesting
 * 4:59: TinyClayMan: I might hop in the vc from time to time for that
 * 4:59: Rozty: should be very helpful, was testing it out the other day
 * 4:59: TinyClayMan: >livestream
 * 4:59: TinyClayMan: My headcanon is that Atv looks like his avatar
 * 5:00: Rozty: as long as you add the browser as a game you are playing from game activity you can stream just fine
 * 5:00: Rozty: (kappa)
 * 5:00: Rozty: it's going to be just the browser, and sounds don't seem to be working even for youtube videos for now, but that shouldn't be an issue if it's about the wiki
 * 5:01: Dwemer35: Wait, was Aramithius using that thing the other day?
 * 5:01: TinyClayMan: Ah, screen streaming. That is nice
 * 5:01: Rupuzioks: there is a new Opera GX, The Gaming Browser
 * 5:01: Atvelonis: I think he might have been. He streams for his podcast I think
 * 5:01: Atvelonis: I already know what he looks like though! I met him in England :P
 * 5:01: Atvelonis: regardless - I don't really have specialized streaming equipment, not sure if that's needed
 * 5:01: Atvelonis: like I just have a regular PC and a headset
 * 5:02: Rozty: nah, for now it's not
 * 5:02: Rozty: that's all you need tbh
 * 5:03: Dwemer35: If I get witness protection filter I'll come in too (kappa)
 * 5:03: Atvelonis: lol
 * 5:03: Rozty: https://gyazo.com/3c9f602cb7cf269bfee7228810966897
 * 5:03: Rupuzioks: replace all the videos on the articles with livestream :D
 * 5:03: Atvelonis: if it's lecture-style, people can sit in and just mute themselves/not speak
 * 5:03: Rozty: just do this and if you are in vc in a dekstop the option to stream will show up
 * 5:03: Rozty: doesn't work on mobile for now
 * 5:04: Atvelonis: neat
 * 5:04: Atvelonis: For starters - we can maybe do a small test run, maybe next weekend or so
 * 5:04: Atvelonis: regular vc
 * 5:04: Atvelonis: could just be casually chatting to see if it works
 * 5:04: Atvelonis: does anyone else have ideas/stuff they want to say?
 * 5:07: Rozty: honestly no
 * 5:07: Sakaratte: I just want to say I finally defeated EFI
 * 5:07: Atvelonis: nice
 * 5:07: Rozty: (kappa)
 * 5:07: TinyClayMan: Congratulations
 * 5:07: Atvelonis: oh, I did have something quick
 * 5:07: Atvelonis: You already know this, but I would like to promote at least 2 patrollers before Jan 1
 * 5:08: Rupuzioks: EFI= elder federal institute
 * 5:08: Sakaratte: More like Evil F-ing Insecurity
 * 5:08: Atvelonis: I'm personally going to be pretty busy for the fall and probably busier for the winter/spring
 * 5:08: Atvelonis: Since I'm one of the main patrolling-type people, that does call for some extra hands on deck
 * 5:08: Atvelonis: (though we could use extra help regardless)
 * 5:08: Atvelonis: So this is just a reiteration of that: people can reach out to me if they think they're interested, and we can coordinate an application
 * 5:09: Sakaratte: I don't mind lingering for template poking purposes
 * 5:10: Rozty: keeping that in mind
 * 5:10: Atvelonis: And also a note that if I sort of disappear for a while, especially mid-December... I will be back. I just have a lot of stuff
 * 5:10: Rozty: first i want to get back to the regular business after the summer
 * 5:10: Rozty: also keeping that in mind
 * 5:11: Atvelonis: Ok cool
 * 5:11: Atvelonis: So if no one has any other stuff, I think we're finished
 * 5:11: Sakaratte: Other than if someone does want to borrow me for poking, you'll have to wait until next moot
 * 5:11: Sakaratte: I'm good
 * 5:12: Atvelonis: Alright. Then by the power vested in me by Todd Howard and Jimbo Wales, I hereby declare this moot to be over