Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-27007772-20140611204941/@comment-29458028-20140628132750

112.205.18.151 wrote: I mostly side with the Empire because numerous reasons:

1. Thalmor. Hammerfell only won against the Dominion because of positioning. The Great War had just ended and since Hammerfell does not border any Dominion Territory( Valenwood does not border Hammerfell. Look at the maps) the only way the Dominion could supply their forces was at sea. Half of the Thalmor army was destroyed at the Imperial City. The other half was trapped between Cyrodill and the Redguard controlled desert as Lady Arannelya was considering aiding Lord Naarfin within Cyrodill when the treaty was signed.

Many Imperial Legionnaires actually remained to defend Hammerfell. The General (I forgot his name) Only sent a token force to flank Naarfin in the IC while he left the majority of his army fighting the Elves in Hammerfell citing them as "invalids" in order to circumvent the order to take his whole force against Naarfin.

To be short the Elves were defeated by "invalid" Imperial Legionnaires and Redguard defenders using scorched earth tactics that devastated the land and because of the difficulty of seiging cities when your supply lines to the sea are constantly raided by Redguards. Arannely could not exert her full might against either the cities or the deserts and was eventually forced to retread due to the war exhaustion stacking within the Dominion.

The argument of the previous people about and an alliance of an independent Skyrim waging war is rendered invalid by the fact that Hammerfell was devastated by the war and could hardly support some grand super alliance in a war. High Rock and Skyrim are the only provinces not devasted that remained in the Empire.

In short. Hammerfell and the Empire are all already weakend while Valenwood, Elsweyr and the Summerset Isle were all unscathed by any Imperial counterattack. The Empire needs to recover quickly to actually fight back against the Thalmor and needs Skyrim to do it. This point is a bit weird, because if you are talking about deserts, scorched earth there is not like super difficult considering you can't do much to grow crops in a desert (plus destroying stuff is super easy). Plus, the legions in hammerfell, where do you think most of the legionnaires were drafted from? Remember the empire technically could draft from anywhere!

Secondly, the point about the redguards attacking supply lines, that is military common sense, Arennelya's full might was that, because it is stupid not to cut supply lines (that is what wins wars) and fighting on home grounds automatically gives you a supply advantage. Burnt farms are not to hard to rebuild in comparison to if your land was fully taken over.

Hammerfell was weakened, but its not like the whole place was completely wrecked and turned into a battlefield. Plus Skyrim is not devastated? With a civil war that has been going on for quite some time? Understanding history is less important than knowing the present, you know

112.205.18.151 wrote: 2. Nord Racism. One look at how Argonians and the Dark elves were treated immediately soured me for joining the Stormcloaks. They were second class citizens who Ulfric did not care about and were ostracized and abused by their Nordic overlords. An example would be the scene when you first enter Windhelm where a dark elf woman is being racialy abused by a Nord through verbal means and he threatens to follow through with a more physical approach and no guard steps in. Racist people, for one, are everywhere. Its not something glamorous or pretty but that is a sad fact in real life. Point is, racism is not even illegal in Skyrim (unless there is a law against it, which I never heard of from anyone while playing the game) or the rest of the Empire, so the guard has no reason to step in. If a dark elf racially abused a Nord in Morrowind, you think a guard will step in ? Ulfric did not exactly ostracise them or treat them as second class citizens. They are not even citizens to begin with, but technically refugees who have governmental power and responsibilities over themselves. Ulfric in a way has no power over them, neither does he need power over them or to regulate them. Decree of monument, really.

112.205.18.151 wrote: 3. I find that most who support the Empire are more well informed on most cases.

A previous person said that the person the Empire chose to be the new jarl was bigoted and that comment shocked me. How could anyone talk to Brunwulf and think that? Brunwulf advocates a more tolerant policy towards minorities. He hates racistm and actually verbally chastises you if you seem bigotted in the dialogue. He expresses how much he hates the narrowminded "Skyrim is for the Nords" policy that the Stormcloaks espouse. Have you never heard of hypocritical people, dear friend? Daily conversations with Brunwulf will reveal his true nature. For example, once, as an Altmer, when I started conversation with him, he was like "What do you want, Elf?" in a condescending tone. I heard of his discrimination against Argonians before as well ("What do you want, lizard?" condescending tone). In the end, the guy hides his bigotry behind a mask of tolerance. He's even more racist than Ulfric, he's just good a hiding it for his power grabbing plan.

112.205.18.151 wrote: Ulfric doesn't care about the people of Skyrim. He cares about his powerbase and the adoration of his supporters. It is said that when a caravan of dark elf refugees are attacked Ulfric would not claim that his men are all already fighting. But if a Nord village is attacked he is the first to sound the horns and fight. I understand the arguments of killing POWs but that wasn't what the other guy was talking about. Ulfric didn't just kill those who fought him. He killed all the citizens who didn't fight. All the people who saw the fighting in the streets and hid in their houses were taken out and executed along with the Forsworn as sympathisers. A man who worried that if he fought noone would feed his children if he died was fair game for Ulfric to kill. You think a man fighting a war, needing every last soldier can spare men to help out a caravan, or spare cash to hire sellswords? Especially considering the people in the caravan could join up against him tomorrow? Protecting Nord villages is not stupid, he needs to make sure people that might actually join the stormcloaks don't die before they go on the battlefield. Would you save someone in a war if you know they could bite back the next day?

Secondly, a Nord village is strategic in a way that is has farms to provide food for Ulfric's forces, some have mines to provied metal, etc. Obviously in a war, you must keep the resources on your side, don't you think so? A caravan hardly contributes to a war effort, a village supplies men, materials and necessities. If there was a dunmer village that fed Ulfric's forces, he'd be stupid not to protect it. If there's an Altmer willing to fight for Ulfric, he accepts the person happily. Simple as that. No idiot spends resources on something that dosen't aid his cause in any way, especially when fighting a war.

For the point of killing everyone, if they really are sympathisers, just kill them. That way, you don't need to lock them up for the next thousands of years and feed them. The main reason why so many people find this a contentious point is because all of us are sitting comfortably at our computers and have time to empathise. In a war, emotion must be the first thing to throw away for a leader.

112.205.18.151 wrote: 4. The Empire's execution of the player character is understandable. If you were a law-abiding citizen you would have been crossing the official border. A man,even if he is in rags, captured where you captured the leader of a rebellion far away from the offiicial border is highly suspect. You could have been a stormcloak prisoner who escaped. Or a farmer who wanted to join the rebellion. You could also have been completely innocent but very few would take that chance. And so Ulfric's killing of people in close proximity to the Fosworn is not OK but the Empire killing people in close proximity to the Stormcloaks is OK. That self contradiction...

Guilty by proxy is never true unless it can be directly proven. The Empire, therefore, is no less barbaric than the stormcloaks in this aspect. How can they therefore claim to be any better?

That's why, in the end, I stick by my original plan:

Datadragon Odahviing wrote: As such, both sides being equally crappy, its like a game of choose your poison. I would have liked a third option to side with my own side, but that was impossible in Skyrim. Which was very sad.

I really apologise for the wall of text, but I really find it difficult how people can say the Empire's a better choice when in the end its no different from the Stormcloaks, except that it was founded by a Dovahkiin that lost his dynasty. Face it, both sides are going to lose to the Dominion at this rate, if they are so silly. (I hate the AD even more, but if their enemies are all such imbeciles, they are going to win.)