Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-25343239-20150319182007/@comment-260563-20180323003820

That's a pile of complete horseshit.

The real world isn't Elder Scrolls, but that's not an excuse to remove real-world ideas about warfare from the Elder Scrolls universe. That's like saying that a story set in a magical or futuristic setting doesn't need to have any real-world logic within it. Elder Scrolls has a lot of wars that can be judged realistically.

Heck, the way the Dominion lost Hammerfell can easily be compared to powerful factions like the Crusaders losing in a desert environment because of the fact that they're not used to the climate and can easily get ambushed in it. And there's numerous real-world parallels between the Elder Scrolls and real life: the Thalmor in Skyrim, for instance, are inspired by the Nazis. They have a supremacist ideology, they're trying to capture/kill people who hold to a certain religious identity, and their officers even have long black overcoats. That's a blatant call to the Nazis. Why? Because the makers of Skyrim wanted them to be a hate sink, to the point where they're not a joinable faction, and both sides in the Skyrim Civil War hate their guts.

So no, real world rules can still be applied to Elder Scrolls. Mostly due to the fact that Elder Scrolls tries to copy so much of the real world's history despite it being a world of gods and demons and magic. The Septim Empire is the Roman Empire. Skyrim is a mix of Germanic and Norse culture, down to the point where they use the early version of the title of Earl, JARL, as the title of their lesser kings. And like the Germanic peoples, these nobles elect a high king from amongst them, just as early Germanic tribes did, and just as the prince-electors of the Germanic Holy Roman Empire elected an Emperor from amongst its princes.

Just because the Empire owns only 2.5 provinces, doesn't mean its losing. What do the Dominion get from their 4 provinces? Oh, wait, it's down to 3, because a bunch of Redguard yahoos kicked them out. Well, from Valenwood, they're getting jack shit, because as the lore states, they're constantly purging the local populace because they deem the Bosmer racially unfit:

"The Thalmor seem to view the Wood Elves as racially inferior, as it is mentioned that they carry out regular purges."

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Bosmer#Fourth_Era

And considering that the Khajiit constantly leave their lands to go abroad with trading caravans that constantly get shit upon by the lands they visit, it's safe to say that Dominion-controlled Elsweyr isn't a good source of wealth or manpower either. Especially when a good number of its people would rather go to foreign lands where they are hated just to make a buck.

So that leaves us with the Altmer Elves of the Summerset Isles. Who, according to Elder Scrolls lore, do not breed as fast as the humans, and nothing in the lore suggests that the Thalmor reversed that trend. The Altmer lost most of their armies in the war trying to keep Cyrodiil from the Empire. They lost more men in Hammerfell, which eventually led to Hammerfell getting free of them. The thing is, they did give us enough lore on the Altmer elves AND the Dominion. And what lore we got indicated that while the Dominion was able to gain short-term advantages, it was at the cost of long-term sustainability, and as Elder Scrolls lore dictates that men are more populous and breed more often than elves, that means that the races of man can afford to take losses and recover, while the elves can't.

Which basically means that, despite their so-called victory, the Thalmor are poorer than the weakened Empire. Unlike the Imperials, their populace isn't as numerous. And all that time and money spent training those soldiers who would conquer Hammerfell and Cyrodiil was sent down the shitter, since they lost both provinces anyways. If the Great War was a victory for the Thalmor, then it is a Pyrrhic victory. They lost most of their armies, their only military gain was taken away from them, and all they got out of it was A) a religious agreement that the Imperials violate regularly, and B) an uprising in Eastern Skyrim that Balgruuf's brother in Whiterun knows they can put down if Whiterun sent more men to aid the Empire, which they will, since Ulfric attacks Whiterun anyways. Which means that without the Dragonborn, that 2.5 provinces would go back up to 3. It would have been three if it wasn't for Alduin saving Ulfric's skin, but then Ulfric Stormcloak attacks Whiterun anyways, which will give the Imperials in Skyrim a manpower advantage of 5-4, not counting the Imperial Legion troops locally recruited in Skyrim.

Which means that the Empire will have two healthy provinces and one recovering province, against the Dominion's three shitty provinces. One of which lost a large portion of its army, whose people don't reproduce as fast, which means they won't recover fast from war. The second of which is getting its people culled by the first. And the third has such bad conditions that many of its people would rather leave and trade with people who despise them. If the Dominion was strong, it would have retained control of Hammerfell. It would be getting allies and recruits from Valenwood's Bosmer populace. And the Khajiit trading caravans would have Thalmor soldiers guarding them, or at least Khajiit warriors armed and supplied by the Thalmor.

Compare that against the Empire, whose people have had enough time to breed a new generation since the last war. Whose coffers are apparently still full, considering that despite the beating the Thalmor gave them, can still afford to bribe the Jarls to shut up about the White Gold Concordat, and can pay local Nords to raise an army in their favor. The Empire's armies are still there, keeping Dominion forces out. And it's made clear in Skyrim that pro-Imperial factions are loaded as fuck, with pro-Imperial cities like Solitude having plenty of wealth as a trading port with the East Empire Company, while pro-Imperial people in Whiterun have farming businesses making money for them.

The thing is, you're not judging the Thalmor fairly. You're judging them based on first impressions, which is a very mistaken approach. You can put lipstick on a pig, but at the end of the day, it's still a pig. And the way that the Thalmor are acting, with them not giving aid to Khajiit traders, with them slaughtering Bosmeri peoples of Valenwood, it's as Roose Bolton tells his son Ramsay back in Game of Thrones: "If you acquire a reputation as a mad dog, you will be treated as a mad dog. Taken out back and slaughtered for pig feed."

While the Empire still has allies in Skyrim and High Rock, and its economy and populace in Cyrodiil is still healthy, the Dominion's main province of the Summerset Isles has, according to Elder Scrolls lore, slow birth rates, and lost most of its army in the last war, and they couldn't even hold on to a forsaken desert filled with guerrillas. While at the same time, they're genociding people on one province, and not caring about the other, to the point where many of the Khajiit would rather get spat upon and jeered at in foreign lands while trading goods rather than stay home and be the Thalmor's pet cats.

The uprising in Skyrim isn't even a concern to the rest of the Empire. The Empire merely sent one general to lead locally-recruited men, and he practically won the war before Alduin showed up. That's why Elenwen was at Helgen-she was deathly afraid that everything they worked for to create this uprising will end with one chop of the headsman's axe. But then again, Ulfric will march himself and his men into the grave anyways, because what does he do? He attacks Whiterun, a neutral hold, which gives the Imperials manpower superiority. Five holds, alongside the local legionnaire army that they've raised, against the four holds of the Stormcloaks. And as Balgruuf's brother Hrongar noted, just getting Whiterun to join the Empire would end the war decisively in the Empire's favor and make the Emperor eternally thankful to them:

Hrongar: "Have you reconsidered my idea?"

Balgruuf: "I haven't changed my mind, if that's what you're asking. I won't leave Whiterun defenseless, even for a day."

Hrongar: "If we send half our guards to aid the Legion, just for a few days, it could tip the scales in the Empire's favor. The Companions can help protect the city, and the Emperor will be in our debt."

Balgruuf: "Have you lost all sense? We are short on guards as it is! If we lose half our men, the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild will have the run of the city. The Stormcloaks will be the least of our worries! The answer is no, I tell you! Now stop pestering me with your war-mongering!"

If only Balgruuf knew that the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild were shadows of their former selves, he would have probably accepted his brother's advice, and gotten rid of the Stormcloaks once and for all. But with Ulfric attacking Whiterun anyways, Balgruuf siding with the Empire and giving them manpower superiority is assured. Which means that all the hard work the Thalmor did in creating the Stormcloak rebellion, with them capturing and torturing Ulfric Stormcloak and arranging for a Talos worship ban in the White-Gold Concordat, is down the shitter. Which means that they sacrificed a large army for nothing.

The fact that you keep talking about how real-life rules shouldn't be applied to Elder Scrolls goes to show the weakness of your argument. Elder Scrolls lore is partially based on real-life events, mixed with gods, demons, dragons, and magic. The Empire was built by a woman who was part Spartacus, part Harriet Tubman, part Julius Caesar, who made a covenant with divine powers to keep the forces of evil at bay, just as many religions have covenants between Divine Powers and mortal men. The Empire itself is based on the old empire of Rome. The Thalmor in the Fourth Era are akin to the Nazis, intentionally made like that by the authors because they hated elves and wanted an "elf grinder" to put them in.

And the main reason the Elves managed to kick the Emperor out of Cyrodiil in the first place-something you use to prove Dominion superiority-is because they caught the Empire by surprise. But then they got kicked out there anyways, because the Forgotten Hero worked with the Emperor and the Imperial Army. Just as the Nazis managed to catch the Soviets unprepared and took much of western Russia from them, only to be slowly pushed back as a more populous Russia, with American coin and supplies backing them up. The war ended with Hitler committing suicide as the Russians closed in. In much the same vein, the Thalmor relied on blitzkrieg and shock tactics, catching the Empire by surprise, but when faced with the full force of the Legion, their armies were destroyed, and they sued for peace.

So when one combines Elder Scrolls lore with things like history, logistics, and economics, it's quite obvious that the Thalmor will lose. Money and manpower win wars, not magical beings. In a world where magic is a God-given right, one can always strategize how to take down a magical phenomenon. Heck, stealth archers can take down Dominion battlemages as if it was nothing. The Dominion forces and tactics were designed to fight against the likes of Ulfric Stormcloak, and his army of brawn-over-brain type Leeroy Jenkins-style forces. They were not designed to fight armies that use strategy and tactics, as well as superior numbers and wealth, against them. That's why the Thalmor lost the last war's last battles. If it wasn't for Imperial coin or manpower, the Forgotten Hero would have been decapitated by Lord Naarifin. But thanks to the fact that the Empire can withstand losses and give as well as it gets, they were able to deal the Dominion a massive loss. One that, if Elder Scrolls lore is to be believed about the Altmer, is a loss that they can't easily get over with their paltry reproduction rate.

Why was the first Aldmeri Dominion established in the first place? Because the Altmer lacked for numbers and needed the Bosmer and Khajiit to bolster their forces. Queen Ayrenn knew this problem, and it was the main reason why she established the ORIGINAL Dominion in the first place. She knew the lesson that Robb Stark was trying to teach Edmure Tully: "WE NEED OUR MEN MORE THAN TYWIN NEEDS HIS!" In this case, Ayrenn needed her men more than the races of men needed theirs, and she established the Dominion to forge alliances and gain reinforcements.

Now, the third Aldmeri Dominion forgot that fact, as well as Ayrenn's hatred for the idea of Elven Supremacy, and their armies are also primarily Elven, and they lost a massive chunk of it in the battle against the Empire. So yeah, the Empire will win this waiting game, while the Dominion is doomed.