Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-25343239-20150319182007/@comment-260563-20180320181149

Wait a minute.......you're going to shit on the Empire for losing Black Marsh? A land that not even Tiber Septim, with his Numidium, were unable to conquer? Tiber Septim and the Numidium crushed the Aldmeri Dominion's balls the last time they fought. Septim brought the Elves into the Empire by subjugation and warfare, yet even he knew that trying to conquer the kingdom of Argonia was a pipe dream. Instead, he conquered the fringes of Argonia, then tried to have the Argonians assimilate peacefully with the rest of the Empire. If the Septim Empire, under Tiber Septim, with his Numidium, were unable to conquer Black Marsh, then how in the blazes can an Empire without a Numidium or a Dragonborn Emperor keep the place?

If you haven't forgotten, the Summerset Isles were ravaged by war too. They were so fucked in the ass by the Oblivion Crisis that they gave the Thalmor, a group of wizards who were openly mocked by Altmeri society, emergency powers. They were that desperate that they gave the Altmer version of the Ku Klux Klan the same kind of power that Chancellor Palpatine got during the Clone Wars. The Thalmor literally profited off their own people's misery to gain power.

And during the Great War, even though Alinor itself remained unravaged, the Dominion lost a massive amount of men trying to hold Cyrodiil from a counter-attacking Empire. It's like Germany in WWI: Germany itself remained unravaged, but they lost so many lives that they had to make a peace treaty with the Allies. The Empire won the last battles of the Great War. Had Titus Mede II not been a craven coward and appeaser, he could have bargained harder at the negotiating table to not give up Talos worship or Hammerfell. The Elves were unable to gain either one through warfare. The Elves lucked out that Titus Mede had less backbone than past Emperors had.

Plus, the Dominion's gains in the war didn't amount to shit. The White-Gold Concordat and the Skyrim Civil War should have diverted Imperial Legion forces from the south to up north, but it didn't. It only caused the Empire's greatest general to move up north, and he didn't And the Dominion's only real military gain was Hammerfell, which they lost to a bunch of Redguard yahoos using guerrilla tactics.

The Dominion army excels at fighting forces that have little defense against magic and have Leeroy Jenkins tactics, hence why the Stormcloaks have little chance against them. But considering how they lost Cyrodiil, their greatest gain in the war, to a "weak and dying empire", it goes to show that the Dominion is just as vulnerable and mortal as the Empire is. Losing Hammerfell to the Redguards can be excused as the Dominion letting go of a territory that was already ravaged, but the problem is, the Imperial populace is still larger than the Dominion's, which means that their armies and economy can recover faster than the Dominion does from war. War burns through gold like dragonfire, and with the Dominion gaining JACK SHIT from the war in total, no Hammerfell, no Cyrodiil, just an uprising in eastern Skyrim that can be put down by auxiliaries and some asshole who breathes magic words, then all those lives lost, all that money wasted in training those soldiers who got slaughtered as the Imperials took back their capital province, was all in vain. And as I've made extremely clear before, the humans breed faster than the Elves, and the Dominion already has stringent codes about reproduction that will not allow for mass breeding to help recover the numbers lost during the war.

So once again, I will repeat what Robb Stark told Edmure Tully, because it applies here: "WE NEED OUR MEN MORE THAN TYWIN NEEDS HIS!" Because THE DOMINION NEEDS ITS MEN MORE THAN THE EMPIRE NEEDS THEIRS! Cyrodiil, High Rock, and Imperial Skyrim takes only one or two decades to raise and train new armies, and with trade and coin coming in from companies like the East Empire Company and, as the Gray Manes suggest, farming interests that Imperial families like the Battle-Borns invest in, the Empire has plenty of taxable wealth to fund and train an army, and their population numbers makes certain that they have the numbers to train an army.

And the Dominion doesn't let Wood Elves and Khajiit join their military in droves. And why would they? They're already slaughtering Wood Elves for being racially unfit, and the Khajiit are only in it because of a lie. The Wood Elves would likely defect to the Empire due to all the mistreatment from the Altmer, and Khajiit troops would betray the Dominion forces once they figure out that they've been lied to. No smart Dominion commander will rely on them. So again, the Dominion has naught but Altmer to rely upon for their armies. The Altmer, who don't breed as fast as the humans, who were never as numerous as the humans to begin with. Who lost plenty of lives trying to hold Cyrodiil from the Empire, who lost men again trying to hold Hammerfell from the Redguard rebels. And of course, you have nothing to disprove the fact that the Khajiit joined because of a lie, or the fact that the Altmer are slaughtering the Wood Elves. All we got from the lore and the characters of the story is this:

"The Thalmor seem to view the Wood Elves as racially inferior, as it is mentioned that they carry out regular purges."

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Bosmer#Fourth_Era

And this:

"The Khajiit religion is based loosely on the moons, as it determines the birth patterns of the Khajiit race. When the moons did return, the Thalmor took credit, claiming to have used previously undiscovered Dawn Magics, and the Khajiit considered them their saviors, causing a massive decline in Imperial influence in the region."

http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Void_Nights

So basically, the Thalmor are slowly phasing out the Wood Elves because they're racially inferior, and the Thalmor merely took credit for restoring the moons. What if the moons disappeared and reappeared because of the Thalmor projecting illusion magic? What if it had nothing to do with the Thalmor at all and was just some natural occurrence? You accepting the word of the Thalmor as truth when they've been nothing more than consummate liars (like when they claimed to have ended the Oblivion Crisis) throws your argument into question. That, along with the fact that most of what you said cannot be proven by any facts, goes a long way to disproving your arguments.

And why would the Redguards not offer aid against the Dominion? They hate the Empire for abandoning them, but they hate the Dominion even more for oppressing them. If the Imperials provide funding for them, the Redguards can raise an army that can harass the Dominion. Apparently, the Empire has no shortage of coin, with Imperial territories like Solitude being full of big-money types, and with dialogue from Jarl Balgruuf that shows that the Imperials bribed the Jarls to shut up about the White-Gold Concordat. At the very least, the Redguards will make certain that the Dominion won't be welcome in Hammerfell, while the Empire focuses on other fronts, like Elsweyr or Valenwood, before invading Alinor itself.

So, we have a wounded, but recovering Empire, that still is able to splash around cash due to its many businesses and trade corporations, and it still has a healthy human populace that is in no way stopping itself from reproducing and growing new soldiers, since the treaty with the Empire was 25 years before the Skyrim Civil War, where the Dominion is still not ready to go back to war with the Empire. 25 years is a long time for humans. Enough for boys to grow into men and for men to be trained to fight.

On the other hand, we have a Dominion that LOST MOST OF ITS INVASION FORCES IN CYRODIIL DURING THE LAST WAR, and whose people never reproduced in great numbers to begin with due to slow fertility and stringent reproduction codes. And still, we got NOTHING that proves that the Thalmor sped up breeding for troop production. In fact, the Thalmor are twice as stringent about PURITY of the Elven race, hence why those codes existed in the first place. With the Thalmor running on a principle of purity over quantity, they won't have a large-enough army to fight the Empire with. Even if they tried to speed up reproduction, how can it match the humans, who have been reproducing in great numbers for years? If the Dominion had the same numbers as the humans, they'd have won, considering they had better gear and innate magic abilities. They didn't, and instead, the Dominion has not been seen or heard increasing their numbers, and instead, the only thing we've heard is that they're killing off the Wood Elves and that they aren't as numerous as the humans.

So again, even without the Dragonborn, when it comes to a pragmatic, realistic view of the situation, the Empire will win the Skyrim Civil War, due to it having more coin, and because Ulfric will attack Whiterun anyways, driving one of the most wealthiest and most prosperous holds to the Imperial side. Balgruuf's brother, Hrongar, was itching to send HALF of Whiterun's troops to aid the Empire so they can have the Emperor owe them:

Hrongar: "Have you reconsidered my idea?" Balgruuf: "I haven't changed my mind, if that's what you're asking. I won't leave Whiterun defenseless, even for a day." Hrongar: "If we send half our guards to aid the Legion, just for a few days, it could tip the scales in the Empire's favor. The Companions can help protect the city, and the Emperor will be in our debt." Balgruuf: "Have you lost all sense? We are short on guards as it is! If we lose half our men, the Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild will have the run of the city. The Stormcloaks will be the least of our worries! The answer is no, I tell you! Now stop pestering me with your war-mongering!"

The thing is, nobody doubts that calculation. Nobody in-game or in-lore goes against the idea that if half the Whiterun Guard scurry off to join the Legion, the Empire will win the war. Instead, Balgruuf's only objections to the idea are his fears about the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild taking control of the city. But what Balgruuf doesn't know is that the Thieves' Guild is an accursed mess, with their patron spirit having cursed them for taking away something that rightfully belonged to her. And the Dark Brotherhood is no longer a power to be feared, due to the fact that it has been reduced to a bunch of cutthroats with no real connection to Sithis or the Night Mother. They're just basically bandits, at this point. Had Balgruuf known these things, he might have considered his brother's idea. He would have done what his brother had asked, and gained the Emperor's eternal gratitude, had he known that the Dark Brotherhood and the Thieves' Guild were mere shadows of their former selves.

So imagine what happens when MOST of the Whiterun troops join the Empire once Ulfric attacks them. HALF of them joining would win the war for the Empire conclusively. While the Legion is at first, reluctant to support Whiterun, once Balgruuf learns of Ulfric's impending assault from Imperial messengers, then he would have allowed the Legion to garrison his city, which will help them win the Battle of Whiterun conclusively, while the Stormcloaks lose a large portion of their forces. If MOST of the Whiterun Guard join the Empire because the Stormcloaks attacked them, then the Empire's victory is certain. The Empire will have numerical advantage and win the Skyrim Civil War. And with Imperial coin flowing into the area, they'll be able to recover fast from the Civil War, rebuild ruined forts and cities, train more men. And considering that the Imperials didn't send battle-hardened legionnaires there, only auxiliaries and local recruits from Skyrim, then that means most of the Empire's armies and manpower remain untouched. Which means that the Empire will be strong enough to ignore the White-Gold Concordat, while the Elves still haven't recovered their massive losses in Cyrodiil.

The main reason as to why the Emperor signed the Concordat in the first place wasn't because the Empire was falling apart, it was because he couldn't take the fight to the Thalmor's territories. So he was more than happy to give the Thalmor a territory that they can't hold, as well as a minor religious victory, in exchange for time to recover the Empire's forces and allow them to catch their breath. Granted, he didn't factor Ulfric into it, but in the end, a recovered Empire, Dragonborn or no Dragonborn, is militarily superior to a shaky Aldmeri Dominion whose military is reliant on one province, while its two other provinces are being held together by bayonet rule and lies. When the Khajiit realize that the Thalmor are full of shit, and when the people of Valenwood eventually rise up against their Thalmor oppressors, then it will give the Empire all the advantage it needs to run the Dominion over.

And again, your view of the Synod and College of Whispers is narrow. The Synod and College of Whispers are able to politik with the Imperial authorities because they have something of value. You can't politik and gain the notice of those above you if you're weak and worthless. Otherwise, if they were weak, the Imperials won't pay attention to them, let alone throw gold at their feet. The Synod might protest about black magic, but they aren't the only game in town, so it's quite obvious that their protests will fall on deaf ears, unlike the Mages Guild back in Oblivion which was the only game in town, which was able to ban necromancy. Here, the Synod's ban on black magic is just within their own ranks, because another magic organization sanctioned by the Imperial government is allowed to use and study conjuration and necromancy, essentially giving the Empire their own Worm Cult to be used for war.

An Empire that has a healthy economy and a larger population base will always triumph over a Dominion that has shaky alliances and an army that doesn't reproduce as much, an army that LOST MOST OF ITS FORCES TRYING TO HOLD THE ENEMY CAPITAL IN THE LAST WAR. The Dominion's power that it projects is an illusion. It's a trick, a shadow on the wall. The Dominion negotiated a peace not because it was setting up the Empire for the kill, but because it too was unable to wage war. Do you think that people who are as ruthless as the Thalmor would take a break from war if they could destroy the Empire? No, they won't. They would have gone the whole way through, and burned the country so long as they could be the kings of the ashes.

Instead, the Thalmor have to rely on tricks. Try to gain a province through diplomacy, only to lose it to rebels. Try to rile up a rebellion, only for the rebels to almost lose their heads. If it wasn't for the Dragon Crisis, the Civil War in Skyrim that the Thalmor worked so hard to create would have ended. And even with the Dragon Crisis, Ulfric has made more than enough bad moves that, even without the Dragonborn, his attack on Whiterun would give the Empire numerical advantage, which is all they need to sweep Skyrim clean. Which means, again, that the Thalmor's plotting came down to nothing. (Hey, that rhymes!)

So yeah, it is the Empire, not the Dominion, which will win in the end. The Dominion's advantage is a mere illusion, and their other provinces cannot be counted on for military aid. (Nor does the Dominion even desire their military aid to begin with, since they're Elven supremacists who HATE the idea of having other races as equals.) As I said, this isn't the First Aldmeri Dominion that counted Bosmer and Khajiit as equals. Just as the Nazis got outnumbered by the Soviets and the Americans, so too will the Dominion get outnumbered by the races of man who will eventually swamp them. The six points that I raised before could have saved the Dominion and won them the war against the Empire, but since they're too proud and too racist to do such things, they will lose.

I can relate this story to the story of Star Wars the Old Republic. Where the Republic was forced by the Sith Empire to a disadvantageous treaty. The Sith, however, had less people than the Republic, so while the Republic licked their wounds, the Sith remained with a smaller army, not hiring aliens or outsiders outside of Force-users, instead enslaving and killing them. This, in the end, bit them in the ass, when the second war came and the larger Republic army hammered them. Any losses they inflicted on the Republic were nothing compared to the losses the Republic inflicted on them. With the Imperial army shrinking and with the Republic growing bolder, by the time one of the DLCs took place, one of the Darths who managed the Empire's day-to-day business told the Sith players that they will lose the war in a year.

The same can be said for the Thalmor. Any losses or destruction they inflicted on the Empire can be replaced with the humans' fast birth rate and Imperial coin paying for reconstruction. Whereareas the Dominion itself, which is purging the Bosmer population and which keeps the Khajiit population sated by a LIE, cannot stand against the Empire in the long-term with their shrinking army and low birth rates. The Stormcloaks would have been easy pickings for the Dominion, but the Empire? Nope. They gambled everything they had to gain Cyrodiil in the last war, and THEY LOST. And what did they gain out of that massive loss? A province they cannot hold, a religious agreement that Imperials violate in secret in a regular basis, and a small uprising in the ass end of the Empire that failed to distract the majority of the imperial forces, and instead, got the Empire to recruit more soldiers from the local territories. Unless the Altmer can miraculously fart out a larger army than the Empire, which, given their current population laws, they can't, then loss against the Empire is all but certain.

It's like the war between the Nazis and the Soviets: the Nazis looked like they were winning, and for a good, short, while, they were. But they, in the end, couldn't win the numbers game, and the Soviets that they were slapping around slowly began to push them back, with their larger armies and American coin and supplies being too much for even the strongest of Nazi armies to stop. The same can be said here: the Empire's coin and larger army will eventually swamp the Dominion no matter how many victories they win. The Dominion is like Robb Stark: they won most of the battles, but they're losing the logistics war. And eventually, they'll get destroyed by their own arrogance, if not by the Empire.