User talk:Blademaster Jauffre/Archive 2

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 * --Cheatcodechamp (talk) 16:18, August 15, 2015 (UTC)

Re:Amaund Motierre
Hey Blademaster,

I added an image for you on the page. It's not much but the images I've been using for the city pages I've made recently are what the wiki has. So I don't go looking for images from in-game. The image I got for Motierre was something I got from a quick google search. So sorry for the terrible quality and a lack of images. At the very least, it's a start of something more. Sorry again for a lack images. --Vincentius1 (talk) 11:48, December 17, 2016 (UTC)

"Biased Nonsense"
1. The Talos Mistake says that Talos isn't an Imperial God, just a man, so even your claims of saying it's an Imperial deity is refuted by the Empire itself. The Nords still consider Talos a Nord god, as said by Nords Arise!.

2. Children of the Sky says that the dragon shouts is an essential part of Nord culture and used in war and to settle debates for centuries. Hell, if the The Greybeards says that Jurgen Windcaller claims that his philosophy is favored by the gods because ironically he defeated all his detractors in duels using dragon shouts, why is Ulfric's case where he won a duel using a dragon shout being held to a different standard? Any true nord would acknowledge his victory should be proof enough that he and his cause is favored by the gods as well. Some even claim, like the Blades, that the Greybeards philosophy is a bunch of bs.

That's why it's a bunch of biased nonsense.

Before you accuse me of being biased, I wrote a lot of things on this wiki that didn't put Ulfric or the Stormcloaks in a flattering light but I did it because it happened in the game. You on the other hand, are only looking to write pro-Imperial puff pieces and anti-Stormcloak hatchet jobs when the wiki should be about the facts.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 03:51, December 26, 2016 (UTC))

Imperial Legion article
Hey Blademaster,

I'm adding an appropriate infobox to the article in question, there's a couple of fields that have to be filled for which I honestly don't know the correct info. Since you're the expert on the subject, do you feel like taking a look at it? Thanks, —CarloV3r (talk) 13:57, December 26, 2016 (UTC)
 * Looks good. Nice job, thanks.—CarloV3r (talk) 17:00, December 26, 2016 (UTC)

Markarth Incident

 * Why did you arrest the Nord militia? "The White-Gold Concordat. Our treaty with the Elves after the Great War forbid free worship of Talos. But that's what we promised Ulfric and his men. It seems foolish looking back, but at the time, we were hoping the Elves wouldn't find out. So when they did find out it was either we arrest Ulfric and the militia, or enter into yet another war with the Aldmeri Dominion. The choice is clear. And now, Ulfric threatens the thinly veiled we sacrificed so much for." -Igmund

If Ulfric was holding the city hostage like the Bear of Markarth says, why is it that no one in Markarth talks about it like the events in the book says. Why aren't there any Markarth citizens who resent Ulfric for it? Why doesn't Igmund who was there says that they were strongarmed being the reason the Empire had to go along with he deal but instead he completely leave it out? Instead he says "we", as in him and the Empire had supported their deal and promised Ulfric and his men free Talos worship. There are so many inconsistencies with the Bear of Markarth source that it shouldn't be used as a credible source.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 14:47, December 28, 2016 (UTC))
 * How can no one talk about a recent event where tons of people got killed? And they do talk about it, but the events in the Bear of Markarth does not coincide with the stated reports of primary sources of those who were actually there. They said Ulfric was the one killing children and Forsworn colluders, turns out it was Hrolfdir. Why wouldn't anyone mention that Ulfric was holding the city hostage if it was really true? You'd think someone would mention if the whole city was being kept prisoner at a certain moment in time, because I know if an army was preventing people from leaving or coming in, there'd be some gossip about it. That's a ridiculous amount of rationalization to try to see the Bear of Markarth events as true when it is clearly unsubstantiated. I don't know much about the masssacre of whatever, but there is reason to doubt the validity of the Bear of Markarth.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 15:07, December 28, 2016 (UTC))
 * I said my piece, the Bear of Markarth in invalid. You accusing me of being a nazi Holocaust denier tells me this conversation isn't going to stay on topic or stay on reason. The primary sources say that the Empire supported the deal from the beginning.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 15:36, December 28, 2016 (UTC))

Edit Warring
Hey Jauffre, I saw you have reverted some of Sports's edits without giving any reason or talking to him about it on his talkpage. This has led to some edit warring, which may lead you or Sports to a block and will likely lockdown the article if this keeps happening. Before reverting, talk to them on their tp first. If neither of you see eye to eye on something, ask other people on chat. - Kora Stormblade (talk) 22:14, December 29, 2016 (UTC)


 * As this situation may not be as simple as one person is right and the other wrong, I'd suggest for you guys to just not edit those pages for now until we can find the proper sources and find out what's really going on. Even if you may think you may be right, it would be easier for everyone to step back from pages involving the Civil War etc., as sources/information etc. can be perceived different ways no matter how factual it is, and it is unlikely that the edit warring will cease without an outside point of view. Hope you understand. - Kora Stormblade (talk) 22:37, December 29, 2016 (UTC)

Re:Cedran
Hey Jauffre,

Sorry for the late reply. It does appear that you are indeed correct. Is the full quote: ''Forsworn had taken over Markarth, and Ulfric and his men drove them out. Empire promised they'd be free to worship Talos afterwards. Pity no one told the Elves.'' And if so, does Sports use that exact quote as source? Sports has been blocked for a week now, since he started the edit war. Sorry I didn't reply earlier, —CarloV3r (talk) 11:45, December 30, 2016 (UTC)


 * Yeah it's all a little vague on his side. I, indeed, would take it seriously if he had provided any relevant sources, but it seems he didn't. I'll wait a week for things to cool down a bit, his block will end in a week so perhaps he'll provide some sources then. We'll see.—CarloV3r (talk) 16:12, December 30, 2016 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Appreciate it. Same to you. :)—CarloV3r (talk) 16:54, December 30, 2016 (UTC)

Love Your Work
G'day. Just wanted to let you know how much I enjoy your participation in the Forum. Time and again I read your comments and think, "OMG! He get's it!" But in addition to that, you seem to really know your stuff AND I love how you're able to cite references for your information. So thank you. Your posts rock my world. 🙃

🙃👍 Razorgirl 12:26, January 2, 2017 (UTC)

Skqtable
Hi Jauffre, when you want to add information to a table, please make sure that it's formatted properly. I can give a quick rundown of how the sort of table on Hold Guard works; fortunately, it's not too complicated. So a basic skqtable (replace sk with ob, mw, on, etc. depending on the game for a different color at the top) is just formatted like this, for example:

The text after the ! are the headers for each column, and each new line (divided by the vertical line and hyphen) is divided the same way as the headers. So you would put the dialogue first, then the topic, then the audio. So this would make:

If you want to add a new quote, you would have to create a new line with the |-, and then three vertical lines |, followed by the actual info. There are a lot of other ways you can stretch different rows and columns as well, but I won't go into that unless you want me to. I hope this is helpful, though—having info formatted in tables like this is a very accessible way for readers to absorb it all, instead of a bulleted list. Let me know if you have any questions. Thanks! —Atvelonis (talk) 22:33, January 11, 2017 (UTC)


 * There are various help pages explaining these things, for example Help:Wikitext/table examples. I have also been working on a huge editing guide lately, which includes some explanations of links, categories, some templates, tables, etc. I'm still working on the table section though. Not sure if there's a help page on blockquotes, but I do have that explained in my guide.


 * The way I learned about tables was by messing around with the huge data tables on Wikipedia, for example this. So if you want to get a hang of tables in general, the best way to learn is to just analyze how the table would be affected if you modify this or that or whatever. So just practice on a sandbox or something and you'll be able to remember things more easily over time. —Atvelonis (talk) 16:49, January 12, 2017 (UTC)

Re:Windhelm
Hey Blademaster,

Could you clear a few things up for me? You said the Decree of Monument has something to do with the return of Solstheim to the Dunmer. It was my understanding that Solstheim had been returned four years prior to the eruption of Red Mountain. The book talks about giving refuge to the Dunmer fleeing their homeland because of the eruption, Solstheim isn't even mentioned in it.—CarloV3r (talk) 21:22, January 31, 2017 (UTC)


 * Hey Blademaster,


 * Sorry for the delayed response, I've been occupied. The Decree of Monument doesn't speak of any specific location, it just notes that they aren't tied to any specific Hold. The Decree specifically states the tower was erected in honor of the Dunmer exodus, but doesn't mention any specific location. Sports has since provived sources for all of his claims, and I think they're acceptable.—CarloV3r (talk) 19:09, February 6, 2017 (UTC)

Daggerfall
Are you able to play Daggerfall and take screenshots and whatnot? If so, I'd love if you could help with the quest walkthroughs. Get back to me when you can please, thanks. —Atvelonis (talk) 22:40, February 5, 2017 (UTC)


 * Yes, that's what I meant. I think for screenshots, if you launch it through Steam you should just be able to use whatever key you use to take screenshots in other games. Otherwise the Print Screen button should work, though I don't know off the top of my head where photos taken with that button are saved on your hard drive.


 * Regarding templates, don't let any lack of knowledge stop you—do your best to set things up properly, and a patroller or admin will come along and clean it up if there's some way it can be improved formatting-wise. And of course I can help answer any specific template questions you have. —Atvelonis (talk) 03:01, February 6, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Skyrim
I originally locked the page because I intended to clean it up soon afterwards. Obviously, I didn't get too far. I'll unlock the page if you want to give it a shot, but be sure to approach it neutrally. —Atvelonis (talk) 16:45, February 8, 2017 (UTC)

Page created
Hi Jauffre,

I'm working on revamping the "Lore" article on the wiki, so that it's not a stub or just a links page any more, and actually discusses the nature of the lore in TES.

As part of this, I've added a small section discussing both the different kinds of texts that constitute lore, and the canonicity debate. I have a very definite opinion on this (lore is what you make it, to me), but have tried to be as neutral as possible in my discussion, and present both sides. Can you please take a look at the page and let me know if you think I've addressed the matter fairly and/or if anything else needs to be added, before I make major changes to the page itself? I've not mentioned C0DA, for example, as I don't think it's necessary as part of an outline of both positions.

The work-in-progress is here: elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/User:Aramithius/Lore

Thanks for your help!

Aramithius (talk) 21:05, February 25, 2017 (UTC)

Re:Bronk
Jauffre, everyone thinks you're a pain. Do not leave any more messages on my talkpage regarding the issue. I've already told you to stop. - Kora Stormblade (talk) 22:34, March 2, 2017 (UTC)

Re:Deities Template
Thanks mate, I removed it. I don't know if you're editing in source mode, but it's basically just a wikitable with some links separated by bullets. There's some CSS involved (the Alduin's wall background), but that's not important when editing the template. —CarloV3r (talk) 07:56, March 10, 2017 (UTC)

Behavior
Hey Blademaster,

I've been getting some complaints from people recently regarding your tone and behavior towards them while debating certain Elder Scrolls-related topics. I'm not going to side with anyone on this, but looking at it from a purely objective point, getting multiple complaints from individual people usually means they're correct. So, I'd like to ask you if you could perhaps tone it down a bit when debating. I know you're very captivated by the lore, and I know you're very well-versed, but perhaps you're taking it a bit too seriously. This isn't a personal attack on you, but we'd all appreciate it if you could relax a bit. Thanks,—CarloV3r (talk) 12:04, March 11, 2017 (UTC)


 * Sure, no problem at all. Thanks for understanding!—CarloV3r (talk) 14:42, March 11, 2017 (UTC)


 * Going to pop in here—Kora's given Sothas a warning for some of his recent comments. If he has an outburst like that again, it will mean a block. I think it's obvious that he was way out of line there, but maybe you should be a little less passionate in your comments. I get that you're into it, and I totally understand that feeling that you just NEED to respond (I've certainly been in my fair share of internet arguments), but you should try to be a little less personally engaged in this sort of thing. We're all here because we enjoy TES, not to argue with each other. There are times when it's just better to just not bother arguing any more (relevant xkcd), because doing so will only make you and the person you're talking to more angry.


 * I really don't mean this in an accusatory way, and I'm sure it could come off like that, but I've always had the opinion that everyone should stop taking the internet so seriously. I love the wiki, and I especially love TES and the lore behind it, but I don't have an issue with stepping away from an argument if it's getting out of hand, even one about something I really enjoy talking about. Neither should you, nor anyone else. Having the last word really isn't that important. If someone insults you on a thread, don't even bother responding to them, just report them to VIP or directly to an administrator, and go about your day. It's honestly just not worth your time to respond to someone who has completely derailed a thread to the point of curses and personal attacks. In fact, if someone has strayed from logic and reason to ad hominem, they've already lost the argument (this goes both ways, of course).


 * This is cheesy, but when I'm involved in a heated dispute on the forums or elsewhere, I will write out my thoughts, then leave my house and take a walk for a few minutes. I just get up and leave. It clears my head, and it gives me some personal time to reflect on how I'm coming across, and thus how I could improve in that regard. When I come back, seeing my comment with a fresh set of eyes really does make all the difference. If you become even slightly aggravated—even just plain passionate—I would recommend you do the same. I think everyone should do this.


 * Again, I'm really not trying to lecture you here (I've given variations of this speech to many people), but you asked on Carlo's talk page for an explanation on what you're doing that's upsetting to some users. I doubt many of the people you're arguing with have the desire to work it out with you personally like mature adults, so as a friendly gesture I'm trying to see it from their perspective and pass on my opinion. I'd also genuinely appreciate it if you took a look at a few of these essays, which I believe are relevant to the scenario:


 * Staying cool when the editing gets hot
 * Beware of the tigers
 * The Truth
 * An uncivil environment is a poor environment
 * Don't panic
 * Wikipedia is not about winning


 * I have some more essays that I think are worth reading here, if you'd like to check them out. Wikipedia has a lot of these, and I think many of them get their point across much more effectively than I could ever paraphrase them. Sorry for the wall of text, but I do think you (and everyone, really) should take this advice into account. Some self-reflection now and again is a good thing. —Atvelonis (talk) 23:17, March 11, 2017 (UTC)

Re:Sothas
Lol, all right. Thanks for letting me know! You could also report it to Vandalism in Progress next time, no doubt a patroller or admin will see it.—CarloV3r (talk) 11:03, March 12, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Referencing
The naming of the references is the default when using the Visual Editor. Given the volume of references I tend to generate, and that I shuffle content around, the automatic rearraning that the Visual Editor does saves a lot of work for me. However, Atv has flagged the reference name issue with me too, so I'll try to get into the habit of renaming them into something more useful in source mode once I'm finished.

Cheers!

Aramithius (talk) 06:17, March 31, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Stolen items
I am in the very early stages of what will most likely be a several week long project to create list pages for all of the special treasure items that can be stolen and sold to fences. The currently empty lettered are to be linked to tabs in the main Stolen Items page. The Cat Master (talk) 22:31, April 21, 2017 (UTC)

Skyrim Civil War page, outcome section
A bold strategy Cotton, wonder how long before it gets removed by a Stormcloak supporter and an edit war begins :P  DRAEVAN13 13:43, May 19, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Forsworn (rebellion) additional sources
Sup Jauffre,

Whenever I'm making my beautiful lore pages, I go to the Imperial Library website to find books about anything. Simply search up Forsworn, and you get access to a bunch of Forsworn related books. I haven't written anything about the Forsworn in a while, so I don't know books off the top of my head, but the Imperial Library should give everything you need. I may come and add stuff to those pages, but I'm working on the Alik'r Desert page for now.

Have a good day bro! --Vincentius1 (talk) 14:01, June 8, 2017 (UTC)

Civil War Outcomes Edits
Ok tell me what's your problem?(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 15:27, June 10, 2017 (UTC))
 * Cyrodiil suffered the brunt of the Great War, suffering heavy damage to their infrastructure and casualties.[52] Although the Great War occurred at least a decade ago, there have been recent reports of instability in the Imperial province. In 4E 188, the city of Bravil erupts into violence as a result of a war between two skooma traffickers.[53] Cheydinhal follows suit and falls to violence sometime during 4E 189 – 4E 200.[54]

''It got bad back in Cyrodiil. The war with the Thalmor ruined...everything."''= Camilla Valerius

 "The Imperial Province is ravaged by strife. Nowhere there is safe, at present."- Cicero (Note he says at present meaning it is still ongoing.

Deleting "Irnskar Ironhand tells Thane Bryling that "Possession of the holds change on an almost daily basis,",[55] and Jorleif claims "The Stormcloaks are finding victory across the land."[56] " is unnecessary and relevant to the topic at hand.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 15:32, June 10, 2017 (UTC))
 * Thane Bryling is not a Stormcloak sympathizer, she is an Imeprial thane telling Elisif hard truths that no one in her hold are willing to admit. If she's a stromcloak sympathizer, is Legate Rikke a Stormcloak sympathizer since Hadvar says he thinks she sympathizes with the Stormcloaks outright? You can't make baseless assertions like that. Furthermore, she speaks of the people in Skyrim in general, which during a civil war means she sympathizes with the plight of the common man in Skyrim caught in the middle. No where is that line indicates that the Stormcloaks are losing or relevant.

I also added the Cyrodill data to show that the Cyrodiil may be too unstable to commit too many troops to quell the Stormcloak uprising which is to counteract your misleading narrative that the Empire is supporting the campaign or has ample reinforcements. All relevant to the outcome of who wins the civil war.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 15:41, June 10, 2017 (UTC)) I gave my valid points you just refuse to listen. Try to rearrange and I'll re-add it as it was. If you get a third neutral party like Carlo to back you is only when I'll relent.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 15:47, June 10, 2017 (UTC))
 * You know I don't have time to waste on a computer discussing the minutia of the logic that you will inevitably ignore in favor of your own deluded narrative. And lucky for me, it's not you who decides what's relevant.

You said it yourself, Bryling's subjects and her power comes from the Imperial supporting Hjaalmar. It would be against her best interests to root for the Stormcloaks since as she logically says, if Ulfric continues to beat them, " If this continues, and the worst comes to pass, Solitude will pay the price. The Empire is headquartered here, after all." -Bryling.

Furthermore, to further illustrate that she fights for the Empire, despite her enthusiasm, she says in a private conversation with her lover Falk Firebeard, "You know that I support the Empire, as we all do. However, I fear General Tullius is underestimating the Stormcloaks. Too often the general has lost good soldiers because he did not take Ulfric and his men seriously. If this continues, and the worst comes to pass, Solitude will pay the price. The Empire is headquartered here, after all." She outright says to her lover that she supports the Empire in a private intimate moment where she has no reason to lie. And "proud Nords" of Skyrim means the common Nord, whatever their affiliations. Is Baalgruuf and Rikke, are they not "proud Nords"? Are the Hold Guards outside fighting in the Civil War whether they be Imperial or Stormcloak, are they not proud Nords. That is why that is a misleading assertion to equate that with Stormcloaks.

As for the Penitus Occulatus quotes, that's to illustrate that even a source you can't deny is biased is showing the Stormcloaks aren't being massacred as you claim. Your using the hyperbole by Galmar as absolute truth, but this quote isn't? Well then it deserves relevance.

Cyrodiill I've already addressed but let me repeat it for you "I also added the Cyrodill data to show that the Cyrodiil may be too unstable to commit too many troops to quell the Stormcloak uprising which is to counteract your misleading narrative that the Empire is supporting the campaign or has ample reinforcements. All relevant to the outcome of who wins the civil war." As I said, I'm taking the time to address you as a courtesy but as I said I don't have time to waste on a computer discussing the minutia of the logic that you will inevitably ignore in favor of your own deluded narrative.(Sports72Xtrm (talk) 16:29, June 10, 2017 (UTC))

Penitus Oculatus Agent
Hi,

When you're moving an article to a game-specific one, like you did with the Penitus Oculatus Agent article (moving it to Penitus Oculatus Agent (Legends), make sure you don't leave a redirect. Penitus Oculatus Agent now redirects to Penitus Oculatus Agent (Legends), which we don't want. It should be a disambiguation page.—CarloV3r (talk) 15:14, June 11, 2017 (UTC)
 * Was there no image on the article before, by the way?—CarloV3r (talk) 15:21, June 11, 2017 (UTC)

Imperial Library
As a quick note, you can find (almost) every book in the series on The Imperial Library. As far as I know the site itself isn't official, though it's run by Lady Nerevar, Kirkbride's fiancée (or maybe wife at this point). Generally if you don't own one of the games or can't find a book, that's a good place to check for its contents. —Atvelonis (talk) 20:44, June 13, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Alliance War and Facebook
Can you link me to the post? Generally I'm not inclined to use Facebook as the sole reference for an article, though. If absolutely necessary it can be the source for a developer statement or something (as we very occasionally do with Twitter), but whatever they're saying can most likely be verified elsewhere. —Atvelonis (talk) 21:42, June 15, 2017 (UTC)


 * If this post has something that really isn't stated anywhere else, then I suppose you can reference it in an article (the page is the official one, after all). Ideally, though, it would be better to use references from in-game whenever possible. —Atvelonis (talk) 22:42, June 15, 2017 (UTC)
 * That used to be on the website, also. The whole thing. (On the background story page). It was moved to make way for eso: Morrowind info. Timeoin•Say G'Day•View my work 22:04, June 17, 2017 (UTC)

Orsimer argument
Hi Jauffre,

Busiao No Laughs would like to stop the argument, so I'd appreciate it if you wouldn't leave any messages regarding the topic on his talkpage. Hope you understand,—CarloV3r (talk) 07:50, June 19, 2017 (UTC)

Civil War Page
Hi Jauffre,

Thanks for the Civil War image suggestion. I've pinged it to Carlo, who has added it to a Gallery section on the page.

Cheers!

Aramithius (talk) 11:01, June 24, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Creating a new page
The preloads are recorded on MediaWiki:Newarticletext which I assume is locked to normal users. Regardless, I think the Legends book might actually be a duplicate of Xarxes and Oghma, so the page can probably just be a redirect to. Thanks for bringing these things to my attention. —Atvelonis (talk) 22:58, June 26, 2017 (UTC)

Tiber
Hi Jauffre,

Could you do me a favor and find some more sources claiming Tiber was a Breton? I'm a little reluctant to keeping a claim like that on an article without several concrete sources backing it up. Cheers,—CarloV3r (talk) 14:18, June 27, 2017 (UTC)
 * Sure. The "hatred for Orcs" one and the statue are a bit too speculative, in my opinion. But I'll use the rest.—CarloV3r (talk) 14:45, June 27, 2017 (UTC)

Re:Orcs
Hi Jauffre, I checked all sources you linked extensively. The Pocket Guide Source was misinterpreted, Arena and Daggerfall lore is always superseded by later lore, and the others make no reference to beastfolk. One or two do show how they are considered by citizens of Tamriel to be distinct from Elves, and I've alluded to that in the article. This is the end of the matter for that page.

Hope that clears things up, —Bronkiin (talk) 17:03, June 28, 2017 (UTC)

Re: Confirmation
I apologize for the lateness of this reply, I've been rather occupied lately. I'll go through each of the sources provided and state my point of view of the information that is available to us:

Orcs are indeed listed separately from the other races in The Elder Scrolls: Arena Player's Guide. Rather, they are placed alongside rats, goblins, etc. in "The Bestiary" section (page 79). They are only referred to as Orcs, and not Orsimer.

"Orcs are a larger version of goblins. Indeed, scholars have often speculated that these two creatures are somehow related. Nevertheless, they are stronger than their cousins, and very dangerous, often equipping themselves with weapons found on their opponents. They are not overly intelligent, but are cunning enough to stalk their prey and set up ambushes."

Likewise, various types of Orcs are referred to as "Beasts" in The Daggerfall Chronicles in the "Monsters" section (page 139), but there is no description of them given in this book; it simply lists relevant stats. However, The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall User's Guide again categorizes Orcs under the "Bestiary" section (page 77).

"From a distance, an orc may resemble a large, squat, muscular man—before the tusks become evident, and the green skin and the piggish eyes are seen. Usually, when a viewer is that close to an Orc, he or she is not taking notes about the details. Orcs are among the most common encounters around the Iliac Bay, particularly around the southern half of the Wrothgarian Mountains. They are a consistently savage group, ready for a fight no matter the odds. Some rather eccentric researchers have suggested that the Orcs have a culture as ancient and sophisticated as ours, and that their seemingly mindless barbarity is somehow related to rites of passage or tests of courage. It is highly likely that these researchers have never felt the sting of an orc captain's barbed axe."

The third reference again just mentions "race descriptions," so I assume it's referring to the ones given in the manuals. The Morrowind Prophecies puts Orcs in the "Races" section (page 4), but does not have a race description as far as I can tell. However, The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind Manual has the following to say about Orcs, also listing them under the "Races" section (page 14):

"These sophisticated barbarian beast peoples of the Wrothgarian and Dragontail Mountains are noted for their unshakable courage in war and their unflinching endurance of hardships. In the past, Orcs have been widely feared and hated by the other nations and races of Tamriel, but they have slowly won acceptance in the Empire. Orcish armorers are prized for their craftsmanship, and Orc warriors in heavy armor are among the finest front-line troops in the Empire."

Pact Pamphlet: Congratulations! does not explicitly refer to Orcs as beastfolk. It does list them separately from Mer, but that's really not much to go on. There are better sources for this information if you want to cite it.

Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Wild Regions devotes a section to discussing Orsinium, the homeland of the Orcs, including the first excerpt below. I would personally interpret this as the author referring to the parenthesized races as beastfolk, not the Orsimer.

"The Orsimer, followers of Trinimac who changed after the deity was eaten by Boethiah, and the goblin-ken (ogres, gremlins, and other beastfolk) that they allow to live in Orsinium favor the Elvish name for their settlement, for it suggests, at least to human ears, a glorious and beautiful fortress-city instead of the rustic and primitive village-and-keep that it is."

This second excerpt is a more direct reference to Orcs being beastfolk, but I have to emphasize that this is coming from the First Edition of the Pocket Guide to the Empire. Hardly the most unbiased material out there; it even states that Tiber Septim, under whose reign this text was authorized, dislikes the Orsimer, so it calling them beastfolk does not surprise me.

"The Orcs have recently petitioned the New Emperor to grant them a similar status, but Tiber Septim is famous for his hatred of their kind, and has yet to bestow the beastfolk good answer."

Song of the Askelde Men is similar to the Pact Pamphlet in that its proof for Orcs being beastfolk is just that it distinguishes Orcs from Elves. Again, I'm not inclined to take this too seriously.

The "Betmeri" dialogue in Morrowind seems to originate from a character named Okan-Shei. The statement itself is sourced from a page on The Imperial Library called "Savants' Notes on Vvardenfell." This is not a primary source; from what I can tell, the author of the page has paraphrased much of the dialogue from characters in the series, including Okan-Shei. There are two paragraphs in particular that appear to be quoted directly from him, but they are not actually in quotations. None of the information about Orcs on this page has specific references to other characters, so I cannot easily verify any alternate origins of the statements made here.

I visited Okan-Shei in-game and opened up every dialogue tree that I could, but I could not find a single mention of the word "Betmeri." I'm going to look into this some more tomorrow once I get the Construction Set for Morrowind running properly, because I may have missed some obscure dialogue tree. Anyway, I did get some related stuff about Orcs and beastfolk out of him, but it doesn't help much. The following excerpt is the "Orc" dialogue option from Okan-Shei.

"The Orc peoples of the Wrothgarian and Dragontail Mountains are brave and hardy barbarians. Once they were feared and hated by everyone else in Tamriel. Now many have gained an education and Imperial citizenship through service in the legions. Their armorers are the finest in the world, and Orc warriors in heavy armor are the best front-line troops in all Tamriel. Detractors say that Orcs are rough and cruel, but Orcs say they are hard, but fair, and stern, but just."

This excerpt is from the "Humans" dialogue option from Okan-Shei.

"The human races are short-lived, socially aggressive humanoids, shorter than Elves and more technologically advanced than the Beastfolk. Warlike human cultures have subjugated their Elven and Beastfolk neighbors and synthesized their arts, literature, magick, technology, and theology into Tamriel's dominant culture -- the Empire. Obsessed with progress and destiny, human civilization constantly reinvents itself from materials plundered from conquered cultures and re-shaped by human myths and dreams."

I can see that the Loremaster's Archive refers to Orcs as Betmer, but because these include fan questions, the answers given are not typically considered canon. Even if they were, the author of this particular source, being a devout follower of Boethiah, has an obvious bias against the Orcs; it is clear to me that anything he says about them is unreliable.

"Thendaramur Death-Blossom says: 'Trinimac was vain and arrogant, and he and his followers paid for their weakness by being transformed to show what they truly are: brutish Betmer without guile or finesse. How do the Orcs view Boethiah? From a great distance, if they were wise—but we already know the answer to that!'"

As with some previously-mentioned sources, Gulugash gra-Orguk's statement regarding the Orcs relies on extrapolation to come to a conclusion that Orcs are not Mer. It's possible that while she may biologically be an Elf, she does not consider herself one socially. Again, this type of source is not sufficient.

''No caravans, no kids. Protection is extra. Want me to kill an orc? It'll cost you more... but I'll kill elves for free.''

There were only two sources listed for the statement that Orcs are considered "Mer." Both of these happen to be direct statements explaining this claim; there is no interpretation to be made here. In The True Nature of Orcs, for example, it says the following:

"Orcs were born during the latter days of the Dawn Era. History has mislabeled them beastfolk, related to the Goblin races, but the Orcs are actually the children of Trinimac, strongest of the Altmeri ancestor spirits. When Trinimac was eaten by the Daedroth Prince Boethiah, and transformed in that foul god's insides, the Orcs were transformed as well. The ancient name for the Orcs is 'Orsimer,' which means 'The Pariah Folk.'"

At one point in the quest "Discerning the Transmundane," Septimus Signus has you gather the blood of the various living Elven races. He even has a quote about it where he refers to Orcs specifically as Elves:

"A panoply of their brethren could gather to form a facsimile. A trick. Something they didn't anticipate, no, not even them. The blood of Altmer, Bosmer, Dunmer, Falmer, and Orsimer. The elves still living provide the key. Bear you hence this extractor. It will drink the fresh blood of elves. Come when its set is complete."

I'd like to point out that I'm really not the person to go to for lore information. There are many more sources discussing Orcs' relationship with Trinimac and Boethiah, but I do not have the time nor willpower to comb through every single one. Since you seem to want my opinion on the subject, though, here's my general analysis.

Quite a number of the sources claiming that Orsimer are beastfolk do so through extrapolation, and do not explicitly state it. This does not mean they are entirely useless, but there are significantly better sources to use for this sort of information; the shaky ones should generally not be cited if a better reference is available. Here's something to think about: Dwemer are technically Elves, but almost always we refer to them separately from what we typically think of as an Elven race. However, this does not automatically mean that they are beastfolk. You can say the exact same thing for the Orsimer.

It's also important to note that the Orsimer literally have "Mer" in their name. Argonians, Khajiit, and other beastfolk do not. Judging from this alone, the Orcs are indisputably Mer, just like the Dwemer or the Falmer or whoever else.

There are some blatantly racist remarks made in the Pocket Guide and some of the manuals to Arena and Daggerfall. The manual from Morrowind also corroborates the beast categorization, albeit with a much less offensive description. The fact that the authors are biased does not mean that the sources are entirely untrustworthy, but it's pretty clear that they are not taking an entirely logical stance here (as an analogy, consider the Christians' view of the Vikings in the Middle Ages). On the other hand, the pro-Mer sources, so to speak, have no such biases.

I am not saying that they are perfect sources of information—literally every work will have some level of bias—but they reflect a much less hostile attitude towards Orc culture, so obviously what they have to say is more reliable. In the case of "Discerning the Transmundane," I do realize that gameplay is not necessarily a substitute for background lore, simply due to the limitations of game design. However, the blood mixture, which includes Orc blood, actually works. Unlike, say, the population of a city in Skyrim, there are no gameplay limitations that could be assigned to this. This is a strong indication that the Orcs are indeed Mer.

My final opinion on this: several sources state that Orsimer are Mer, and there is no questioning that. However, some clearly biased sources and other more neutral ones claim that they are actually beastfolk. I think it's fair to include both points of view in the article, but given the intense bias of some of the writings, the beastfolk part should not be the page's highlight. If anything, it should be mentioned in Trivia or another section.

I am also going to warn you against referring to staff members, or any other well-meaning users, as vandals. I'm not sure if the remark you made to Bronkiin was supposed to be a joke, but even if it was, your conduct with many other users has been varying levels of inappropriate for almost the entire time that you have been on the wiki. I would ask that you read another essay from Wikipedia at this time. Please refrain from trash-talking other members of the community, no matter how much you disagree with their edits or mindsets.

I have a lot of real-life things to attend to right now. If you'd like to re-add to the Trivia section some of the information that was removed, be my guest; just please do not place it in the lead. You can respond to this message, but I'm not going to argue with you. If you have further questions, I would be happy to answer when I can. Thank you. —Atvelonis (talk) 19:10, June 29, 2017 (UTC)