Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150818230019

College Mage: Ferris wrote: I had to look at the timeline for this one, because they may have been able to handle it better. But once I did, I found out within the same year (4E 171) that the ambassador arrives, they're invaded. Within the second year they've already captured the Imperial City, So I don't think that they would have had the time to gather up all the counts. It sounds like they barely had any time to even defend themselves.

I see. The Thalmor sure are quick sons of bitches. In that case maybe they could not have helped it, although I still don't think it justifies the Empire's long decadence when it comes to security. They should have during the 200 years after the Oblivion Crisis tried to do something to strengthen their defenses. But that was also before Titus Mede II, so he can't be fully blamed.

With their forces watching the border, they could barely afford the single legion they sent, but on top of that, why not recruit for the coming "Great War 2: Even Greater". Technically speaking, The legion didn't even need to recruit more soldiers, by the start of the game, the Imperials already won. They had captured Ulfric and were about to put an end to the rebellion.... and then Alduin appeared. And I personally think that should speak volumes on the capabilities of even a smaller force of well trained legionaries. Hmm... it is never clarified when the whole recruitment began. When speaking to Imperial soldiers and Legates, they will encourage you to enlist in the Legion because of them having their hands full with dragons, a rebellion and a dead king. That is where I got their reasons for recruiting, along with the fact that Tullius and his forces was sent to Skyrim during the time the Stormcloak rebellion broke out. But I will admit, it didn’t really cross my mind that the whole recruitment of Nords into the Legion could have been going on since the Great War ended. If it is true, then it is more reasonable.

As for Ulfric's capture, it was described by Hadvar as a masterstroke by General Tullius, although it is never mentioned how. It could have been done by Imperial infiltrators within Eastmarch tracking Ulfric's movements. Or someone within his court being bribed to give away information. Or maybe they could have just found him through blind luck. The Empire has been able to solve a lot of their problems with espionage and gold for a long time. But fate decided that they wouldn't get away that easily again. And on a more personal note, even though I prefer not to speak from emotions, but Alduin's interference did in fact give the Dragonborn a second chance in life. A second chance that ended up saving the world from Alduin. Ulfric was also given a second chance. Perhaps, just like with the Dragonborn, fate had a reason to save Ulfric. A reason which could mean saving the future of Skyrim. I guess that is why I feel more akin to Ulfric than Tullius.

You're right about the Dominion, not being able to immediately launch an invasion if they take Cyrodiil. They will be weaker, but not totally weak. But lets think for a moment what that could mean for Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock, the Dominion doesn't just gain the province, but they also gain any and all ships, supplies, weapons, magical artifacts, etc that the Empire has been barely holding onto. And without an Emperor to rally around, and no place to really retreat to, we wont see a second battle of red ring. With the posistion the Dominion would have after invading, they could just wait for Skyrim to come to them. (Ulfric wouldt just let the elves hang out by the border for very long) They could (heavy heavy speculation) even just taunt Ulfric into invading south, bottle neck them at the Jerall Mountains and cost Skyrim a heavy chunk of their army. BUT as a bit more speculation, that could ultimately be a good enough cause for Hammerfell to approach Skyrim to form an alliance.

It is true that the Thalmor will gain much from capturing Cyrodiil, if they could quickly claim and utilize those resources. But since they will have a weaker army and perhaps not as much time until the other provinces retaliate (I would say Ulfric would begin his campaign when the Thalmor makes their move), their only chance of surviving would be if they barricaded themselves within their walls of the Imperial City. If the Thalmor spread their forces around all counties, they will become easy picking for opposing soldiers. So typically, their biggest gain would simply be the Imperial City along with its treasures. They just won’t have enough soldiers to keep control of the entire provinces and fending of opposing attacker. Same with trying to lure Ulfric into a trap, it would mean spreading their forces even thinner to cover the Jerall Mountains. Their position won’t be strong enough to fend everyone off.

If ESO has taught me anything, a smaller force in close quarters, dug in, can withstand full armies. I know this isn't ESO, but whenever we discuss fighting in a war within the universe, That's as close as I can come, having served on the front lines several times. It can really show you the advantages of High Ground, and capturing strategic points and such. But even so, If you go into a save file, go to the solitude docks, and start the killing spree, look how easy it is to just own the dock. You may need to scale your level down and maybe use non enchanted armor and weapons and such for the best results. The stormcloaks would probably eventually win, no question but how many do they lose trying to take back the port? And on top of that how many supplies do they lose when the Dominion ship the supplies back to their own men? or how many ships get burned at the dock? Even if the Dominion lose men in the fight, it could cost the Stormcloaks much more.

I suppose we have a different mentality when it comes to war strategies. I would fully agree with your statement: "a smaller force in close quarters, dug in, can withstand full armies", if they are dug in a fort or castle, where the stone walls and the interior can provide much needed cover. But a medium sized ship is a significantly different from a fort. And the thing is that it will be the Stormcloaks who will have the higher ground advantage. The port in Windhelm and Riften are right outside their walls. If they tried anything there, Stormcloak soldiers could line the walls and shower arrows at them, forcing them inside the ships. Then they could either board the ships or maybe sink them with catapults or just using oil containers and torches. Like I said... bad move. Even though the port in Solitude is further away from the walls, the docks are being overlooked by tall hills, allowing for the same or similar strategies. The only port that the Thalmor could possibly take and hold would be the one in Dawnstar. Then again, the Thalmor could probably seize the entire town with one warship. But I'm not sure if the EEC even sails there, so their ability to infiltrate will become weaker.

Well, I could make the argument (and have before) that If Ulfric REALLY understood the Thalmor were the real enemy, he could have just fought THEM instead of instigating the Empire, and seceded from the Empire THAT way (like Hammerfell). This is the part that urks me about Ulfric... not just because his actions don't make sense, but because THAT is where I see the disconnect between the Stormcloaks and Ulfric. It strikes me more that Ulfric has a personal vendetta against the Empire, because he feels bitter about fighting FOR the empire and him feeling (rightly) betrayed by them. But then he starts to rally a rebellion claiming its for freedom and such, and to the common Stormcloak it IS about freedom but then I look at Ulfric and think, "freedom" is just the pretty frame of his picture of vengence. It appears (again, to me at least) freedom is just the bi-product of his real Goal, not the goal itself. I do see a lot of people mention how good of an adviser Galmar is, but the main interaction I see between the two of them is Galmar suggesting stabbing whoever doesnt listen and Ulfric being the one to say "no, we're not gunna do that". I always just got the impression Ulfric was the more level headed between the two. And I agree we do still see the east Empire trading company in Skyrim after the war, but we also still see the Thalmor Embassy, So it could just be enough time hasnt past yet to really see if Ulfric allows them to continue business. And Like you said we dont really have reason to believe he wouldn't, but who's to say he doesn't raise their taxes to dock so much that the EEC doesn't WANT to trade through them any more. (or none of it happens and everyone wins).

It is true, but how could he fight the Thalmor if Skyrim was under Imperial control and therefore bound to the WGC. The Empire would not allow war with the Dominion unless they say so. In order for Ulfric and the Stormcloaks to wage their war against the Dominion, they would need to break the "shackles" of the Empire. To Ulfric, the Empire is not his main problem, but instead an obstacle to his ultimate goal. I would say his actions makes sense to me. Free yourself and then strike back. I will however agree that Ulfric does have some personal motivations too. Its not really a vendetta, he just believe that he is better suited to be High King and has a legitimate right to the throne. While he doesn't actually have one(other than the duel with Torygg), neither does Eliseif. Perhaps even less than Ulfric. Maybe she has a legitimate claim as Jarl of Solitude, but not High Queen of Skyrim. And I wouldn't say that Galmar would stab anyone who doesnt agree with him or Ulfric. The way I see it, he is just very overprotective over his right to think, express and worship freely. And that is just what the Thalmor wants to take away, and they are using the Empire to enforce their will, thus leading to Galmar having an almost equal hatred for the Empire. Ulfric, being a bit more planning and cautious, tries to keep his anger in check while still taking council from him.

As for why he is still letting the Thalmor Embassy stand, it is very obvious. Just like with Embassies in real life, the ground it stands on is considered to be a part of the country it represents. The Thalmor Embassy, the building and the ground it stands on is a part of the Aldmeri Dominion. Any attack on their own terretory would result in an all out war with the Dominion. Now you are thinking, isn't that just want Ulfric wants? A war against the Dominion? He does. But he just had a Civil War in his own country. He needs to restore control as well as organizing and rebuidling his armies. When it comes to the Thalmor Embassy, he will bide his time... until the right moment appears. And I dont think he will raise the taxes that much. After all, all of Skyrim benefits from their trade. And the Empire as well. And after cutting ties with the Empire, he will become more reliant on other forms of trading.

I know others have come along and pointed out the timeline error, but I still think your overall point is still valid. When i said the Empire had little sway, I was referring to the fact that House Hlaalu was the one the other houses took their Empire aggression out on, during/post oblivion crisis. But anyways, your point about The Empire helping rebuild Skyrim, I think they would, they would HAVE to, they asked the most from Skyrim, there's no way they would just forget about that. The Empire has a lot stacked against it, and as I said (and we both agree on) the Empire needs to focus on Cyrodiil first and foremost, but As We believe the Nords are hearty badasses on their own, I've also go to believe the Empire wouldnt drop the ball on repaying Skyrim for all it's already lost once all this is said and done. (it could be how Skyrim attains legitimate independence). To your last line tho, "That is why I think they should take their troops and corrupted influence out of Skyrim and focus entirely on reorganizing themselves for the next Great War." I agree and disagree here, I'll say once again they're not corrupt (or at least not as much as everyone keeps saying they are, it almost just feels like a filler word, like when people say all Stormcloaks are racist) but IF they leave Skyrim, That would mean letting go of Skyrim, which not only means losing the province, but then it puts a strain on the whole WGC cold war. I had mentioned before in the last forum, before we moved here, it could mean the Dominion uses the WGC as a means to force the Empire to allow them to set up troops to invade Skyrim Through Cyrodiil without needing to take out the Empire first, The Empire of course says "No way are we letting you bring troops in" and then you have the Ambassador situation all over again, where they push the invasion date up, and choose to invade right then, before Skyrim even HAS a chance to recover.

Or not. The Empire could do the same with Black Marsh, Morrowind and Hammerfell. Release them and leave them to their own fate while they focus on saving themselves. Like I said, they have done that before in that past. Sure, past actions doesn't necessarily determine what actions the Empire will do in the future. But it can serve as pretty good measurement of what they can possibly do. Or even if they DO plan on repaying them, they will not likely repay them directly. After the Second Great War, the Empire will probably be even more devastated than before (if not fallen entirely). So it will take a long time before their great debt to Skyrim is repaid. Until then, Skyrim might suffer immensely for a long, long time ahead. Also, don’t forget that the Thalmor were also exhausted from the Great War, their army being tied with the Empire's. That is why the Redguards implied in the book "The Great War" that the Empire could still have fought on. If the Empire hasn't fully recovered, then it’s not likely that the Thalmor has fully recovered either.