Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150919142830

Draevan13 wrote: This thread is getting way too long and I haven't read most of them :P

Thats an understatement. The more I keep sparring with Ferris, the longer these posts get. Soon it will be too difficult to read our replies. I just hope it won't force us to stop. This has been really fun so far. :D

College Mage: Ferris wrote: You make a good arugment here. I'll go back on record to say I don't FULLY believe Ulfric is racist, however I do understand where the rumors come from. He is busy with the War, however it is rather bad that so much is going on in his own hold he can't seem to control, or find someone to gain control of. The drunk who gathers people to hassle the dunmer, all those murders by the butcher, argonian mistreatment etc etc etc.

It is true that Ulfric has put too much effort on the war rather than his own Hold. But then again, the exact same can be said about General Tullius. He also focuses most of Haafingars resources and soldiers to the war, leaving the Hold lightly defended and vulnerable. Due to the nature of this war, both sides must show that they are the toughest. So if one side pushes hard, the other side needs to push back just as hard, or preferably harder, or else they will lose their credibility to rule Skyrim.

He does tho, or at the very least he mentions he plans to. His dialog only suggest that people who have been living under Ulfric for so long (even if its not his decree, he's been enforcing it) developed a hatred for the Argonians. It'd be unsafe to just open the gates and tell everyone to "deal with it" there would be riots. Even if Ulfric himself isn't racist, those Nords living in Windhelm are, and to have anew Jarl show up and enforce tolerance on people who didn't need it before can cause problems. All this speaks volumes in my opinion, on Ulfric's Rule... again... even if he himself isnt racist, he seems content with allowing racism, and such within his own city. If he can't run his own city properly how does he run a country? At least Brunwulf is trying to reach out to both the dunmer and the argonians to work out something. That's more than Ulfric ever did. And if it's all really because of the War going on, He should have had someone else covering for him. Balgruuf is able to fight off Dragons, capture Dragons, fight in a war, and STILL run his hold. I understand Ulfric is the head of this war, but his own city is going to shit while he's busy ignoring it all. Balgruuf was only able to do all that thanks to the Dragonborn, by killing the dragon, arrange the peace council, capture Odahviing, and arranging the alliance between Whiterun and the Empire. Balgruuf did very little himself, except enlist the Dragonborn. Which any Jarl can do easily…

Ulfric just wishes to be a good Jarl and please his people. He is only acting the way his people want him to act. If the people dont want Argonains in their city, then it is their right to wish so. I'm not saying its a good thing though. I do think that some Nords of Windhelm treats them a bit too harshly, but if you tried to order them to forcefully change their ways, it will only brew more resentment within. It isn't a solution. So I will give Brunwulf that much in his approach to deal with the Argonians. See, there is the problem. The Dunmer wants the Nords to reach out to them, while the Nords want the Dunmer to reach out to them. Because of that, we have the division we see today. And those Dunmer who HAS reached out the Nords and their ways, like Belyn Hlaalu (and Luaffyn, a little bit), has moved up in society. The rest who refuse simply remains in their own quarter. This ties in to what Niranye said one of her lines. So its not just the Nords being uncooperative. The Dunmer are just as much to blame.

And many Nords who joined Ulfric for the same reasons. What reason do you suggest mad ehim anti-empire? He's CLEARLY anti-empire, so saying he's not isnt an argument. He mentions the Empire "betraying" skyrim a lot so I'd say it's safe to say he himself felt betrayed and that lead him to be anti-empire. Also, WHY did Ulfric even have a militia to begin with? If he wasnt planning on overthrowing the government, what was he doing building an armed force? it's all rather suspect.

To the point about the Empire just allowing it to sort itself out, that isnt really how they operate. Ideally, Yes, you do want them to sort things out themselves, but it wasnt as if the Empire official stance on the matter was "let them deal with it". They didn't have the men to send at that time, most of their forces were held up at the borders right after the war. Why not blame the other Jarls for also not assisting? All his anti-Empire arguments came from AFTER the Markarth Incident. That much I do not question. But have you ever heard Ulfric spread anti-Empire propaganda during the time between the end of the Great War and the Markarth Incident? No, we don't. That is what I am trying to say. Just because Ulfric hates the Empire now doesnt mean he has always done it. Even Rikke mentions that Ulfric was a supporter for the Empire during the Great War. And the reason why he assembled a militia? It’s pretty obvious: the Forsworn. Do you think Ulfric could have retaken the Reach all by himself? No, he needed troops. He assembled his militia after he was contracted by the Jarl to retake the Reach. I don't see any "suspicion" with that.

But isn't that what "sorting itself out" means though? When you don't take action due to lack of time, resources or interest and lets the matter get resolved by an outside force? Of course, I could easily be wrong there. Also, you can't really order a Jarl to meddle in the business of other Holds. Their first duty is to the Hold they rule. They have no obligations to help. If the Empire really owns Skyrim and the Reach, then it is THEIR responsibility to manage and keep it. I know that the Empire had problems and could not attend to the need of the Reach. That is why Jarl of Markarth had to resolve the situation himself, and so he did. By hiring Ulfric(who was not a Jarl) to lead an army to retake the Reach.

c'mon now, The war was fought, the treaty was signed, 1 year later Ulfric has a militia force within Skyrim? a force that could only be convinced to fight if the WGC was completely ignored? I'm not suggesting he had anything to do with the specific timing of the markarth incident (he obviously didnt know before hand the reachmen would attack) but he definitely had some sort of plan in the works.

But didn’t Ulfric assemble his militia after he was contracted by the Jarl? I don't find any information that says he had a militia for a longer time? If there is hints to this, then please let me know.

The dialog you're referring to with Tullius is cut, but I will entertain the idea for a moment. Let's take a step back for a moment tho. The Thalmor do like to pressure the Empire, it is known, however, just because Tullius and some nobles can be convinced to attend a party to play nice doesnt mean this is how the entire empire does business. The Thalmor just like to "poke the bear". Tullius was sent to Skyrim and charged with regaining the region. The WGC enables the Thalmor to also be there to enforce the treaty. So if Tullius suddenly started to blow off the Thalmor, it would cause problems for his superiors, and possibly cause him to be replaced within the region. The Thalmor's ultimate threat is the threat of an early war, but it's not as if they're specifically saying "come to our party or we invade" and the Empire is saying "please don't hurt us" its more subtle than that. It's more like someone speaks to a superior of Tullius and suggests that because a higher member of the military force isnt listening that perhaps it means they plan to break their treaty, the Empire responds by saying they have no interest in break the treaty, and to prove their word, have to remove Tullius from the situation. It's just easier to attend the stupid party, grin and bare it for now. Sometimes ou just have to do things you dont want to for the greater good. Its not as if Tullius saying "no" means they go to war, but saying "no" means tensions could rise, troops appear at the border as a threat, etc etc and on it goes, it's a big headache for everyone. Tullius' job is to follow orders, and the order right now is to play nice. That being said it still doesnt prove that the empire would do literally anything (including fighting battles for the thalmor) just to satisfy them. "Over a single prisoner?" yes, and especially that particular prisoner. If the Thalmor have taken him it most likely means it's Talos related or that that's what they want you to believe, either way, The Empire asking to return an enemy the Thalmor have taken would cause too much trouble for no real reward. The grey-manes aren't big fans of the Empire, or the Thalmor, why would they want to cause an upset by asking for a prisoner to be released who would most likely just go join the stormcloaks anyways? Asking for a prisoner is a mch bigger deal then you may realize. It's technically taking "justice" away from them, and if they were to claim he was taken because of the Talos ban and the Empire still tried to get him freed, it could, again, be seen as breaking their treaty. Just to clarify, that piece of dialogue is not cut. The option to convince Tullius(once you become Legate in the Legion) to give the Dragonborn orders for Thoralds release, is cut from the game. However the option to ask Tullius for help and get refused is still in the game. Also, you are a bit wrong; it is exactly "come to our party or we invade". Tullius openly admits it: “I would refuse, but I don't want to jeopardize the peace between us." That pretty much confirms it. And it wouldn’t make sense why the Empire are so afraid to refuse if it wasn’t due to threats of war. For what else could the Thalmor do against the Empire, if not war. Granted, I will agree that it is simpler to just send a representative of the Empire to the party than to cause potential ruckus. That is how you utilize people beneath you.

I get your point about Hammerfell and Skyrim being different scenarios, but what you're suggesting is that the Thalmor would use the treaty to force the Empire to fight and kill for them. It doesnt give them that right. What I was suggesting is based on the logic that they could in fact use the treaty as leverage to force the Empire to fight their enemies, they would have done so with Hammerfell the minute it stopped being a part of the Empire. Without the Alliance of the Empire it would make Hammerfell free and independent, leaving the Dominion to say "good, now that you're not friends, attack them" but they didnt do that because they can't. The WGC can only be enforced within Imperial lands yes, but the WGC doesnt say "fight our enemies for us" it's just a peace treaty, like I said. It's not some alliance between the two. Also The Empire didnt let go of Hammerfell to save it from the WGC, it let go because Hammerfell refused to stop fighting, and being apart of the Empire meant by extension the Empire wasnt stopping the fight after just signing a peace treaty. They let go of Hammerfell for that the WGC didn't bind Hammerfell to the Empire in order to comply and maintain peace. It wasnt some grand gesture to Save Hammerfell, it was to save their own skin. I never said that the Thalmor would demand the Empire to fight ALL their enemies. Only the ones who object with the WGC. That is what we see in the civil war. Half of Skyrim objects to the WGC. So the Empire steps in to restore order, in other words; re-enforce the treaty again. If the Empire would not resort to that at all, then we would not have the Civil War at all. In the loading screens, they say: “the Imperials believe Skyrim is a part of the Empire, and must follow its laws and customs.” I know the Empire didn’t let go of Hammerfell to save it(it wouldn’t save them anyway if they planned for that), they let them go so that they won’t strain the “peace” treaty, as well as they won’t have to use their soldiers to enforce the treaty, which would lead into an internal war within the Empire. I can, somewhat, agree with their decision on that part. However, it showed that the Imperial are willing to sacrifice their allies for some “breathing room”. That is why I am worried what more the Empire is willing to sacrifice for any kind of tactical advantage.

True, as long as it complys with the WGC. The Thalmor will try very hard as often as they can to push the limits of what those terms are, but they are bound by those terms, for now. And that's the big issue, this is all "for now". We KNOW the Empire is going to fight the Dominion again, with or without Skyrim, it's happening. That fight will ultimately effect Skyrim in some capacity, So you mean to tell its ok to have people, who once believed and even fought for the Empire, getting dragged off, tortured and killed just because it is a temporary thing? Does that justify the Imperial’s betrayal? The WGC saved the skin of Cyrodiil mainly, not necessarily all of the Empire. And in return, Skyrim must still pay off the debts that the Empire racked up during the Great War? That is the thing that freaks me out so much about the Empire. When you unintentionally stab a friend in the back, the last thing you want to do is twist the knife. The Imperials has leeched off so many things from Skyrim, and they don’t seem to show any remorse about it. People are rightfully complaining, and instead of coming to solution that works for everyone, they suppress their voices because it conflicts with their own plans and agendas. That is selfish and greedy, much like what many would describe Ulfric as. It is true that the Empire will fight with the Thalmor. So does Skyrim(under Imperial or Stormcloak control). All nations will most likely be engaged with the Dominion when the war breaks out. But I just don't see why Skyrim must follow under Imperial banners for that.

and to quote Spock, "The Lives of the Many, outweigh the lives of the few" If a few people have to be taken in the night, or captured and tortured, it's horrible yes, but to fight blindly and lose countless lives fighting unprepared is reckless. It is a bit more than just a few. Many of Ulfrics soldiers mention that they join because their relatives were dragged of by the Thalmor. But the thing is that the Stormcloaks aren’t going to fight unprepared. Otherwise they would have waged war right after they conquered Skyrim and not wait to rebuild their armies. Also, if you consider the Stormcloaks unprepared, then I would say the Empire isn’t prepared either. They are obviously still rebuilding, otherwise they would not need to drain the wealth of the other provinces.

Not only would it be bad odds, they'd get flanked hard and lose huge amounts of soldiers. Even with assuming they were able to work together. If they go south-east through Cyrodiil, they meet forces from Valenwood and Elsweyr, in from the west comes the Summerset Isles. It'd also be super easy to trick them into going too deep into either Valenwood or Elsweyr and then surround them. If they went directly for Summerset, not only do they need enough ships to sail there (and keep sailing there for restocking supplies) it leaves them open to attack on open water. Once there theres no retreating, and leaves them open to attack from any direction, since valenwood and elsweyr could get ships to any port they needed in summerset. The Forces from Hammerfell and Skyrim fight at their best on their own home turf, but the problem there is once the Dominion gets that far, it's too late. How so? I don’t see that as a problem. In order to get that far, they will need to cleave through Cyrodiil first. Like I said before, it will soften up the Dominions army enough for the other provinces to strike back. It is true that it is strategically poor for just 2 provinces to attack the Dominion, but don’t forget that the Empire is right behind them. Once a war has been initiated with the Dominion, the Imperials will (hopefully) not just sit there and roll their thumbs. While one(or two) army is making a crack on the Dominions defense, the Empire should push in hard. It will be pretty much reverse from retaliating after the Dominion attacks Cyrodiil.

I've recently read an article where someone decided to make a sandwich from scratch, and it takes him 6 months in order to get all the ingredients necessary. A single sandwich. Expanding food production isn't as easy as just planting more crops. You have to own the land to expand, that land has to be fertile, which in Skyrim is a bit hard to find. Even Rorikstead *may* have had to use magic in order to get the crops to even grow. You can't just go out and hunt animals all you want either, thats why every hunter in the game will say "the Jarl can't very well eat every animal here" because what they're doing is technically poaching. On top of all the crisis Skyrim has faced, there wouldnt be enough time to decree everyone start producing MORE in order to support their own war efforts and waning economy with the loss of the Empire. The deal with the Empire is Trade for warriors. The Emperor himself funds the EETC, if Skyrim isnt part of the Empire, prices for trade goods goes up. It wouldn't just be "yeah, we will continue our business as usual" it'll be "Now you're a foreign power, we are going to have to tax you" and since the EETC has no competitors, they'll charge whatever they want. Since the Emperor is the main benefactor to the EETC, all that extra gold rolls back to the Empire to fund THEIR war efforts. Skyrim has its entire economy tied to the Empire for centuries, losing them isn't going to be an easy transition even under the best of conditions, but Skyrim also had the Civil war, Dragon attacks, Vampire crisis, etc etc it is the worst possible time for them to lose their entire economy, especially when theres still clean-up to do, and supposedly another war to go and fight. But again... during this time of transition and rebuilding, the Dominion continues to grow with minimal hindrance. Also I wasnt suggesting they'd HAVE to give it away but it is a possibility. You said they'd pay their workers, with what gold? Most of the gold belongs to the Empire and that disappears when they do. (Like I said the Empire is their economy) But what happens when they need supplies and weapons? Taxes go up, when taxes rise, the poor get more poor. A Jarl can only pay for so much out of his own pocket to assist a war effort, and if its the Jarls Ulfric picks, It would not surprise me in the least to hear someone like Skald stopped paying the miners, or tell whoever owns the Mine they are now "gifting" the metal to Ulfric for the greater good. so all gold and ore can go directly to fund the stormcloak army.

I'll end here with this quote from Brunwulf, since we're discussing him already: "I've taken the first steps toward doing so already. I met with several of the Dark Elves to discuss improvements in the Gray Quarter, but we have no real plans as of yet. First we'll need to refill our coffers and stockpile stone and wood. The war took a heavy toll on Windhelm's resources." Windhelm doesnt currently have the resources to repair its own town.... how do they fair when they lose the Empire as a base of economy?

However, Skyrim already has several farms to serve as a base. They don’t really start from scratch. Also, I would disagree. The climate in Whiterun, Solitude and the Rift are perfect for setting up farms. Hell, even in Eastmarch there are farms with crops growing from the snow, contrary to belief. I believe Skyrim is a pretty ripe land for starting a farm. Only reason they haven’t done so is because they didn’t have need for it. And I don’t see why hunting would be a problem? Yes, poaching is illegal, but what if Ulfric hires these hunters(and trains a few more) to legally hunt for them in exchange for a payment. Also, you are a little mistaken. Its not just “food for warriors”. The Empire takes plenty of other things from Skyrim, like silver from the Reach. And maybe even ore and lumber for the rebuilding of Cyrodiil. Instead of giving it to the Empire, they can use it for themselves. Skyrim has prospered from trade with the south, but they only really DEPEND on the Empire for food, as we hear from Sybille. Food is going to be the biggest problem. Everything else is likely more doable.

Yes, I will agree with your point that the Empire will probably demand from the EETC to raise prices on their wares. However, they can’t raise them that much either. The Empire still needs help in form of trade, even if Skyrim leaves the Empire. The EETC can help the Empire in that matter. But if they raise the price to the point where the Nords don’t want to trade with them, that means the Empire will lose that little glimmer of aid from Skyrim. So the EETC will still be forced to adapt their prices to the situation. As for it being the bad time for a change in the economy, I am a little torn over it myself. I would agree with you on all points, but don’t forget that the Empire’s current economy isn’t all that great either. Once again, don’t confuse the Mede Empire with the prosperity of the Septim Empire. Cyrodiil and the Imperial Legion took a very heavy toll from the Great War, while Skyrim was untouched. The economy of Skyrim will undoubtedly get a bit worse, but I don’t think it will be that much worse than if they stayed. And as we mentioned many times, the Empire is better off just focusing on Cyrodiil. At some point they will have to release the provinces due to them not being able to hold it together for long. So Skyrim might have to rearrange their economy anyways. Better do it early than later to reduce the abstinent effect in the future.

Maybe pay in silver, which Skyrim has a massive abundance of? And its true that there will be leaner times for all of Skyrim because of it. That is one of the biggest flaws of the Stormcloaks that cannot be denied. Also, the exact same thing with Skald can be said with Siddgeir. If the Empire would demand, as an example, free lumber from Falkreath, Siddgeir would give it to them for some gold in his own pocket. Both sides have an equal setup of Jarl with similar pros/cons.

That’s because Ulfric has been paying for the whole rebellion across Skyrim all by himself. Thus why the resources of Windhelm are low. And yet he has come pretty damn far on it. Of course, he won’t be able to bankroll the rebuilding of Skyrim all on his own. So all other Holds will have to contribute instead. For instance, The Reach will send silver to Ulfric in aid.

But the problem is, to get to the places that are not well equip and guarded they risk too much to attempt to get there. They have no way of knowing for certain the numbers are small enough to be taken easily, they made that mistake before during the first great war, they wont make it again. the surprise attack attack isn't going to be as effective this time around as it was before. Everyone is on high alert for Dominion forces. It'd be much easier to attack from the fortified position they already have. They will know from all the Thalmor spies in the country. Because the Empire has allowed the Justiciars to walk all over Skyrim without impunity, they can watch and observe anything. Yes, they will be on high alert, but what good will that do when there are no soldiers defending? By the time it takes to move troops back to defend Skyrim, the Thalmor can cause massive destruction and lots of deaths. If they move troops back at all, which they might not, in order to not weaken their own defense. I’m sorry, but as Brina Merillis admits herself: "The Empire has stretched itself too far.” The Stormcloaks might not look very reliable, but neither is the Empire.

Game mechanics do come in when concerning the Dragonborn. If an Argonian Dragonborn wasnt allowed to enter the city, you'd never be able to join the Stormcloaks, and we wouldnt be having this discussion at all because everyone would just side with the Empire, since the Stormcloaks would look so obviously racist. I find it a bit funny people always mention the 1 dunmer who owns property and use him as the example.... He is 1 dunmer, or the 8 or 9 in the city, good for the 1 who made it out of the ghetto, but it doesnt prove they all get better lives. They're refugees, stranded there from the War going on in Morrowind. The War where everyone like to blame the Empire for not doing more to help... where the High King of Skyrim gifted the Island of Solstheim as a gesture of good faith, and Ulfric has "matched" that enthusiasm by allowing them to take shelter in the worst part of his town, pay him taxes, and renamed to something near derogatory. I'm not suggesting Ulfric should give the refugees more, but theres certainly more he could do for them, starting with maybe not letting the drunk racist hassle them nightly. Brunwulf does open up a dialog with them to improve their living situation. altho they are refugees, they are also working within the city, living within the city, paying his taxes, they deserve to be treated like the others within the city who do the same. I think you may be confusing the 2 things he says to mean the same people. His first statement "Too many Nords in this town have been listening to Ulfric's narrow-minded words." He's specifying the town of Windhelm, and kinda generalizing the Stormcloaks. His second statement "Don't let Ulfric or some of these other short-sighted Nords bother you. Most of us are happy to welcome newcomers." the "US" he's referring to isnt Windhelm, he means Nords in general. Basically he feels Ulfric is making all Nords appear racist, and he's trying to be a nice person by telling you not all nords act that way. It's like when people say "Don't hate all High Elves just because you hate the Thalmor." His final statement, "Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted." he's telling you that because of how Ulfric worded his speeches, theres a deep seeded bigotry/prejudice within the townsfolk, and THAT makes it harder for him to make changes such as opening the gates for the Argonians, it could cause riots. True he might be just regurgitation the same speech, but as they say, "where theres smoke, theres fire" Even if he's being bias here and over exaggerating a bit, it's hard to deny the people of windhelm do not like elves, or non-nords for that matter... The drunk who is able to round up several people to hassle elves, the dialog options we get to ask the high elf merchant "is it tough being an elf in windhelm" the lack of non-nords within the Stormcloak ranks, all the "true sons and daughters of skyrim" talk. All of this happens primarily within Ulfric's City, and tho we dont have access to hear any of Ulfric's speeches, whatever it is he's saying most people take to mean he doesnt like non-nords. The Jarl reflects their people. Look at Riften, Maven runs riften, with or without the title of Jarl, and the place is a theives den, filled with corruption. Balgruuf is an honorable and respectable man, White run is filled with nords who hold honor dear, such as the companions. So AGAIN if Ulfric isn't racist, whatever he's doing and saying, is making his people appear racist, and his lack of action to change that mind-set cements it. It'sa little ironic people who support Ulfric usually do so because of religious freedoms, but hate the Jarl who replaces him who is actively trying to care for the people within the city who are suffering the most. I'm all for careing about the needs of the Nords, but the Nords aren't the only ones who live in Skyrim, and the Empire is all about integrating all the cultures together. I see you mentioning the drunk Nord, named Rolff Stone-Fist, like he is some kind of threat. I thought most people got the impression that he was pretty much just like a dog with a big mouth and no teeth. He never does anything he says and just drinks all day and yell at the Dunmer at night. If he wanted to inflict harm at the Dunmer, he would have done it by now. Why hasn’t he done it? Because there are laws against assault, trespassing and murder. The only thing that isn’t illegal is speaking. So that’s what he does. Also, do you really expect Ulfric to stop all his plans for his rebellion just to deal with one rowdy citizen? Especially if it’s not an illegal act? I don’t think any Jarl would do that. There are more important aspects of ruling a Hold.

Now as for the rest of your arguments; to be clear, the Dunmer fled to Skyrim after the Red Mountain erupted. They aren’t refugees of war. They fled because Morrowind became uninhabitable. As for Brunwulfs lines of dialogue, it is a bit unclear if he refers “US” to the people who live in Windhelm or all of Skyrim. However, I find people who attempt to speak for great masses of people(like a whole country) to be the most ignorant, no matter if what they speak is for good or ill. How can Brunwulf really be so sure of that? I mean, there are obviously more Nords in the Stormcloaks(the faction that almost entirely consists of Nords) than in the Legion(which only consists of a certain part). But I dunno, I do believe Brunwulf was referring to the people of Windhelm when he said that” most will accept newcomers”. But I guess will never truly know. But you bring up a decent point, and it has made me re-think a bit. And again, I don’t think the Nord show prejudice to the Dunmer/Argonians because of Ulfric. Ulfric can sit there and spout all the bigotry in the world(which I don’t think he does), it is ultimately up to the individual to decided whether or not he agrees with his arguments. Once again, people blame Ulfric for far too many things. It would be like if I gave someone a knife as a present and that person later stabs someone with that knife. Should I be blamed for the murder then? Yes, the Nords(particularly in Windhelm) holds a bias against the non-Nords. But that doesn’t mean it cannot be overcome. Otherwise most would have packed up and left. Even in the Stormcloaks there is definitively a bias against outlanders(even outlander Nords). I learned from the Stormcloak initiation, where Galmar has doubts about your motivations because of your origin but is willing to let you prove him wrong by doing a test. Once it’s completed, Galmar will admit he was wrong and begins to respect you. I believe the very same thing can be applied to the any elf or even Argonian, even outside the Stormcloaks. Nords are not as welcoming as the other races, their friendship being hard earned, but once befriended, they will remain strongly loyal. The Dunmer don’t seem to realize it and wants to be treated equally right off the bat. We do hear some of Ulfric speeches. First the private speech between him and Galmar when you first enter the Palace of King. Then the speech after the capture of Solitude. Do you hear any racism or narrow-mindedness in those speeches? Nope. Ulfrics dedication to the liberation of Skyrim overshadows any possible racism he might have. I will agree with you on the part where that fact that almost all recruits in the Stormcloaks are Nords, which can be seen as racism. But then again, from what we see in the game, most non-Nords show no interest in Ulfrics cause. Its not that they turn down anyone due to their race. Like Galmar says: "You mistake me. I'm not saying no - just wondering about your intentions. We're not looking for sellswords. The Stormcloaks need dedicated men and women who're devoted to the cause and willing to die for it." Because few non-Nords show interest, it is reasonable for him to show suspicion, especially considering the risks of espionage from the Empire. And I will say it again; “the true sons and daughters of Skyrim” are everyone in the Stormcloaks. Not necessarily Nords. Otherwise they would say: “the true Nords of Skyrim”. Anyone can join the Stormcloaks, if they are aligned with their cause. Its not like the Legion, where you just do a job and get paid. People join because they are devoted to the cause. Sadly, its seems its mostly Nords believe in the cause. But there is also Cade, the Redguard. And Enndon, Cade’s father, said he would have made the same choice had he been younger and not had a family to worry about. Also, for the record, I don’t hate Brunwulf at all. I think he is an overly kind and generous person. I just think he is misguided. He has gotten the image that the Dunmer and Argonians suffer immensely because of Ulfric, due his ignorance of the Dunmers plights and the old decree of the Argonian living outside their wall. But thing there is that they don’t really suffer that badly. The worst they have to take is toothless threats and insults from time to time. When you speak to the dark elves about the “injustices” they have to deal with, they all mention that they are forced to live in the Gray Quarter, which they refer to as an impoverished slum. On the outside, these homes look like any other in the city. On the inside, they are overly worn due to lack of maintenance, but still livable. To me, it seems like the Dunmer looks upon the homes outside the Gray Quarter and tells themselves: “Those houses over there looks so much better than mine. Why can’t I have that? I want a house like that!” And all I got to say about that is: “don’t look a gift horse in the mouth.” The Dunmer got estates, which costs tens of thousands of septims, absolutely free. It may not be the prettiest, but if you don’t like the interior, then take some money out of your own pockets to fix it yourself.

Like you said, they got jobs, they pay taxes and should be treated just like any other citizen. So why should the people of Windhelm pay for the renovations with their tax money to the Dunmer? That is the opposite of equal treatment, suggesting that they are deserve more help than the Nords. When the Dragonborn purchases a house, its empty and looks worn out, similar to the interior of the Gray Quarter buildings. In order to improve it, additional investments has to be made. Home furniture and improvement isn’t free, whether you are a refugee or a hero of dragon blood. :P

asking Aval Atheron, a Dunmer merchant, so he's contributing to the city, he's obviously not just a refugee asking for hand-outs) "Still, having a just and honorable man like Brunwulf in charge can only be an improvement. Unlike Ulfric, Brunwulf has shown a great willingness to work with the other races and make us feel more at home here." Also doesn't sound like a man who is narrow-minded. I'd also say theres enough dialog from other NPCs to suggest whatever Ulfric is saying is coming off as "Skyrim is for the Nords and Nords only" Aval is only saying that because he has a strong bias against Ulfric and a bias for Brunwulf. The only improvment Brunwulf can really do for them is improving the interior of their homes, which I think its more about fulfilling their desires rather than their needs.

And I strongly disagree with with your last statement that “ whatever Ulfric is saying is coming off as ‘Skyrim is for the Nords and Nords only’ ”. If that was true, I would probably join the Empire instead, because I don’t approve of extreme mistreatment of the other races. But I don’t see it. From who do you hear anything like “all non-Nords must be driven out” or anything similar? Please inform me, if thats the case. And please, don’t use the argument of the Nord battlecry: “Skyrim belongs to the Nords!”. I already explained twice that its inherent to a specific voicetype which most Nords, even Brunwulf himself, will shout out. If we were to go with that logic, that would make Nords like Brunwulf and Roggi Knot-Beard racists as well, despite their otherwise friendly dialogues. You see, THIS is where I am willing to look past in-game mechanics. The developers did not intend Brunwulf or Roggi to say these slightly racist lines, but it would be a hassle to cut and edit lines from the original sound pack just for those characters than to just go with what they got.