User blog:Madman97/Political Agenda

A very interesting conversation between me and some users in chat today, one I think the public should see. The general summary of the conversation was an argument between me an SuperSajuuk on how this wikia should be run. The actual chat is longered than what will be showed here but the following is pretty lengthy, and I want everyone to come up with their own opinion about what should be done.


 * Ahem. So as I was going to say, what were all of you guys talking about?
 * 1:11 SuperSajuuk did you see my previous message CCC?
 * and we were just talking about a redirect title
 * as well as the people Tim thinks should be sysop
 * 1:12 Madman97 Oh really? Who are these candidates?
 * 1:12 SuperSajuuk one candidate is CCC, if he's still interested in being one
 * 1:12 Atvelonis test
 * 1:12 Cheatcodechamp I see you.
 * 1:13 Madman97 Are you interested, CCC?
 * 1:13 SuperSajuuk the other one has been implied as myself
 * 1:13 Cheatcodechamp As for Sysop rights, If the community thinks I can do it I will, I was worried my inactivity in the past would be a problem.
 * 1:13 Madman97 As well as you, Sajuuk, if given the chance?
 * 1:13 SuperSajuuk ofc Madman lol
 * and CCC, I don't think this will go with a public vote
 * there's not enough users, I think Tim just plans on directly promoting
 * but could be wrong
 * 1:14 Madman97 Hmm, something tells me that could be a bad idea.
 * 1:14 SuperSajuuk 95% of people won't care
 * and the people who do won't oppose it either lol
 * 1:15 Madman97 But there are people I think would feel alienated at their lack of choice in the matter. I only hope you two meet the requirements I had mentioned in my previous blog.
 * 1:15 Cheatcodechamp There should be a vote IMO
 * 1:15 Madman97 With enough time to spare, strong ties to the community, and superb editing skills and what-not.
 * But if you two are to be the next generation of Admins, I only hope it works out.
 * 1:16 SuperSajuuk @Madman: I've had experienced of being sysop, I would fix a lot of the problems on the wiki and make it more community orientated
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:16 Atvelonis hold on
 * Atvelonis has joined the chat.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:17 Atvelonis test
 * ok good
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:17 SuperSajuuk I don't like the voting system for rights, that is just plain bad. it should be a community discussion and you give good reasons why the user should get a right
 * NORTH PONY has joined the chat.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:17 SuperSajuuk when it comes to patroller, there's nothing remotely dangerous imo
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:18 NORTH PONY Yo
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:18 Madman97 Im glad you have confidence in your editing skills. I certainly do. And you seem to have been active on the community of late. If you have ample free time, by all means, I think you meet my standards. I agree that rights should be a heavily discussed subject, but after this discussion ends, a vote should be taken to solidify the consensus of the people.
 * It may sound tedious, but it's for the benefit of the entire website.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:19 Cheatcodechamp The Admins and Patrolers need to be trusted, the community needs a say in those matters.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:19 Madman97 Exactly.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:19 SuperSajuuk the problem is
 * if we have a vote, it makes it a popularity contest
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:20 Atvelonis sort of
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:20 SuperSajuuk and seriously, this shouldn't be a trust exercise
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:20 Madman97 That is why a discussion should be put into place before we vote instead of just hopping right to it.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:20 SuperSajuuk it should be "assume good faith when giving rights"
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:20 Atvelonis Timeoin should definitely have a say in this
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:20 SuperSajuuk assume the user will use it properly until they abuse it
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:20 Madman97 It doesn't hurt to have a little insurance however.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:20 Cheatcodechamp Sometimes that is better then promoting somebody who nobody trusts or respects.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:21 SuperSajuuk I disagree but I respect what you are saying
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:21 Madman97 A discussion would allow someone to present their case, and then people can feel either comfortable or uncomfortable about voting. It wouldn't be a popularity contest.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:21 SuperSajuuk the thing is, I understand doing a discussion for sysop
 * but rollback? hardly discussion worthy
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:22 Madman97 Im sorry, Im unfamiliar with the term.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:22 SuperSajuuk rollback is just an improved undo, which anyone can do without rollback at all
 * @Madman: Special:ListGroupRights#rollback < that
 * just gives you one extra button to quickly revert vandalism, but anyone can do it with just the page history
 * and the undo button
 * so for me, I shouldn't need to go through a vote just for one extra button that is hardly dangerous
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:24 Madman97 That's not what I mean when it comes to having a discussion though. Allow me to explain further. I'm not an advocate of principle, and I hold circumstance higher. I agree that a rollback is unworthy of discussion, and I don't mean to say that we need a discussion for anything. The only thing we would even need a discussion for is policy changes or voting for a position.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:24 SuperSajuuk I know
 * it's just that, right now, every single flag needs a vote, which is sill
 * *silly
 * I mean it makes sense for things like sysop and bureaucrat flags
 * but not rollback or menial rights like that
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:24 Atvelonis IMO we should hold votes for patroller
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:24 Madman97 A position for someone should be voted for. I agree patrollers are not as important but it is still granting extra rights to a user.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:25 Cheatcodechamp We also have the patrolled button, and are supposed to be a buffer, who give out warning and report Vandals, If we are giving out any short of power, we need to at the VERY least, make sure the person is trusted and responsible
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:25 Madman97 A normal user should be comfortable with their choice of patroller. Discussions are meant to ease their worries and keep peace in the community.
 * A vote will solidify their choice, and if it doesn't turn out as well as they thought, a simple vote can be their undo button.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:26 SuperSajuuk but patrolling edits ain't that much dangerous at all
 * it's just a single little button, how can someone abuse that? o.O
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:26 Madman97 No, but it is still a position that gives them extra rights, like before. They have powers a normal user doesn't (Albeit not much), but its still there.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:27 SuperSajuuk I'd be more worried about people adding JS to the site wide js code to get someone's passwords into a file than someone hitting the "Mark this edit as patrolled"
 * NORTH PONY has left the chat.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:27 SuperSajuuk and no, a patroller is a regular user who just happens to have a couple extra tools to help the wiki
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:27 Madman97 Are we talking page patroller or mods?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:27 SuperSajuuk Project:Patrollers< those peeps lol
 * I just think we're making the flags sound more "dangerous" than they are
 * this is why I like MediaWiki. Everything abusable can be "undone"
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:28 Cheatcodechamp Any power, how ever small, can be abused. It doesn't matter how damaging it is. If we are giving somebody rights, we need to know they won't just push the button because they can.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:29 SuperSajuuk dude, not to be insulting, but that's really not a good mindset. This isn't like some internet forum which is much harder to undo abuse
 * I respect what you are saying
 * but flags are not "powers", they are flags that give some extra rights, but they do not make that user any more different
 * it's also why I don't like the colour hierarchy either
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:30 Madman97 Perhaps not for patrollers of pages, if an Admin has enough confidence in them. Like I said, circumstance is All in my book. I don't mind the color heirarchy much though.
 * Bronymon has joined the chat.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:30 Madman97 I feel that any user who has power over another should be subjected to voting however.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:30 Bronymon Rather then bothering with googling or searchingthis wiki.
 * How do I turn the potions of damage health and such into weapons?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:31 SuperSajuuk but Madman
 * nobody has any power over others
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:31 Madman97 You select the potion and it tells you what weapon you want to assign it to.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:31 SuperSajuuk it's a collaboration project of users
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:31 Bronymon OOOH
 * DUH
 * Thanks bro.
 * I can't read very well so sometimes stuff like this goes past me (derp)
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:32 Madman97 @SuperSajuuk. We have had "Wars" because of unnecessary bannishments. You have been unnecessarily banned I have heard.
 * People have had problems with mods.
 * There wouldn't be such problems if there wasn't an abuse of power there.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:32 SuperSajuuk that was the past though
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:32 Bronymon It's not that I can't read BTW, it's just tiny words
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:32 SuperSajuuk I can't deny the past admins may have done things wrongly
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:33 Bronymon Anyways thanks for the help and I'll be going now.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:33 Madman97 Just because those things happened in the past doesn't mean those powers are no longer in an Admin's arsenal.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:33 SuperSajuuk but we should look to the future and not think about what the past had
 * the thing is
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:33 Cheatcodechamp No problem, have fin Brony
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:33 Bronymon Have a nice day
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:33 Cheatcodechamp *fun
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:33 Madman97 You to Brony
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:33 SuperSajuuk the admins in the past treated everything as though they were status symbols.
 * that's my point, the past admins made everything difficult unnecessarily
 * and yeah I was banned in the past for no reason
 * but while the loss of 4 sysops is a bad thing, it just means that the new generation of sysops can improve the wiki and take it in another direction
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:35 Madman97 I agree, and I am an advocate of changing these things for the better. I have faith in your vision of the wikia's future where everyone is equal. But no matter what, SOME users are going to have to have certain privileges others do not have if they are crat, Admins, mods, patrollers, ect. Just because we have wishful thinking doesn't mean their powers can change unless you want to have a consensus thread discussing revocation of certain rights of the position.
 * Bronymon has left the chat.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:36 SuperSajuuk Of course, but the way I'm planning out rights is that people should get flags without silly requirements
 * by that
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:36 Madman97 Well then, I would be glad to join you in the discussion if you are planning on making a thread. CCC, Atvelonis, what do you make of this?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:37 SuperSajuuk I mean that it should not be up to staff to do a nomination, it should be about making a judgement call and assuming good faith
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:38 Atvelonis No, I think the staff should still have to make the nomination
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:38 SuperSajuuk but why should someone need to go through a nomination though ?
 * that's what I'm not getting here
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:39 Atvelonis They're the ones with the most experience. People like Tim have seen many, many admins come and go, and obviously know what's best for the wiki.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:40 Madman97 I think we have made the point crystal clear Sajuuk. Good faith is not insurance, it is wishful thinking. Without a set structure, this place could fall to pieces. Voting provides structure, therefore order.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:40 Atvelonis If you want the community to make a nomination, IMO that is a really bad idea
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:40 SuperSajuuk Madman, a wiki is about good faith
 * if we won't assume good faith, this wiki might as well stop right here and not bother
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:40 Atvelonis If that happens it just becomes a thing about popularity, not editing skills
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:40 SuperSajuuk No, I just don't think nominations or voting or any of that should happen
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:41 Madman97 And what good faith could we recieve by just taking someone's word for it that they will do well? GhostAnubis said he would do well. Look where that ended.
 * I know a vote could be tedious.
 * But it is necessary.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:41 SuperSajuuk but it's the wrong method
 * no it isn't
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:41 Atvelonis What, so the staff should just instantly make people they like into staff?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:41 SuperSajuuk No
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:41 Atvelonis I don't see what you're trying to say
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:42 SuperSajuuk let me explain.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:42 Madman97 Please.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:42 SuperSajuuk on other wiki's I manage and contribute to, I see it like this:
 * let's say I'm looking for a sysop
 * if I was looking for a sysop, I would look for one or more of these:
 * 1) does the user regularly request users to be blocked ? are they making sure to be diplomatic and warn first before requesting?
 * 2) does the user regularly make requests for editing protected pages (MediaWiki namespace, sysop locked articles and templates etc) ?
 * 3) does the user regularly tag articles to be deleted to clean up the wiki?
 * there's another factor, but I can't remember it offhand
 * but, if a user fits one or more of those, that's someone that's probably who would have a use of the sysop flag
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:44 Madman97 So you have standards. So?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:44 SuperSajuuk those aren't standards.
 * someone could be a not-so-decent editor, but they show a need for extra rights.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:45 Atvelonis Eh
 * IMO they should really show good editing skills
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:45 Madman97 Those are things you are looking for in an Admin or something. Those are Standards.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:45 Atvelonis Let's be honest here; the staff is the face of the community
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:46 Madman97 And I still don't see why this makes voting out to be unneccesary.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:46 SuperSajuuk why should some user be subjected to community vote? we've already proven that support/oppose creates camps of users and it causes massive wars in threads
 * because voting is NOT a consensus, it should not be the primary method of granting anything
 * yeah, voting might be a consensus, but it's not the primary method
 * discussion is the primary method, not a vote
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:47 Madman97 It's called Democracy, and we should be held accountable to the people we govern.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:47 SuperSajuuk x 1000
 * no, a wiki is NOT a democracy!
 * this isn't an internet forum where people with additional rights can do pretty hefty damaged
 * this is what I see as a fundamental problem. the wiki believes too much in it being a democracy
 * it isn't
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:47 Madman97 Discussion is well and good. By all means, discuss away. But a vote makes it official in the eyes of the people. They have a choice in who they want to govern them. You can't just appoint yourselves because people say you should.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:47 SuperSajuuk it's a collaboration project
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:48 Atvelonis Aren't we a bureaucracy
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:48 SuperSajuuk everyone here is equal
 * in fact, Wikia makes it clear that you should not go around acting like your opinion means more than everyone else.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:48 Madman97 Well appointing yourself out of "good faith" doesn't seem very equal to me.
 * A vote means every opinion counts.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:48 SuperSajuuk No it doesn't
 * I can just type in a thread with NO REASON and that's useless
 * not to be an ass here, but there is a reason many wiki's follow Wikipedia's line of reasoning for running a wiki
 * that's not to say I'm trying to turn this place into Wikipedia
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:50 Madman97 And also not to be an ass, but I find my support for your candidacy waning if this is the form of government you wish to take.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:50 SuperSajuuk no offence
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:50 Madman97 Where everyone is equal but not equal.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:51 SuperSajuuk but a wiki isn't a fucking government
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:51 Madman97 The management then.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:51 SuperSajuuk sorry for swearing, but I'm getting tired of people proving to me that they don't know how to run a wiki.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:51 Atvelonis Janitors
 * staff are janitors
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:52 Madman97 Im not trying to start a fight, but I am just expressing my opinion, and as you say, no one's opinion is above the other, and I shall have it heard.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:52 SuperSajuuk I know that
 * I just think you are looking at things in a method that goes against the normal wiki way
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:53 Madman97 The normal wiki way for this wiki has been to vote for our management.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:53 SuperSajuuk and I understand that
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:53 Madman97 We have always done that since I came on here.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:53 SuperSajuuk but you fail to understand that the future shows a change
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:53 Atvelonis Our system works well
 * We don't need to change it
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:53 SuperSajuuk which is your opinion and I respect it
 * but I completely disagree with the current system
 * it's not helping the wiki at all with all these restrictions
 * why should a user have to jump through hoops and things just to get a basic flag like rollback?
 * someone please explain to me why they should
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:55 Atvelonis They need to show that they're capable of using it correctly
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:55 SuperSajuuk ...
 * why?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:55 Atvelonis Believe it or not, you can cause a lot of damage with the rollback tool.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:55 SuperSajuuk No, you can't
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:55 Atvelonis Yes, you can.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:55 SuperSajuuk how?
 * it's just a freaking undo button!
 * or are you suggesting that undo for normal users is dangerous?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:56 Madman97 I have already explained this a million times. Circumstaces say that a user needs to be comfortable with the management. And if someone decides to undo changes for no reason, that is abuse. You are not taking account of the smallest things, which can in turn be the most dangerous. SuperSajuuk, if you feel this strongly about it, then I would kindly request that you present your case to the rest of the wikia on a general consensus and see how they feel about taking away voting, as well as the other Admins, before your position is solidified. Then we will see if the wikia will place good faith in you or not.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:56 Atvelonis The regular undo button is slow and frankly can't be used effectively to vandalize anything
 * The rollback tool is surprisingly quick, and one could hypothetically revert an entire day's worth of changes with it in a matter of minutes
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:56 SuperSajuuk so?
 * it can be undone
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:56 Cheatcodechamp It happened before I showed up.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:56 SuperSajuuk so what's the big deal about it?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:57 Madman97 Do you not see the problem? Someone has to fix it.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:57 SuperSajuuk That isn't a fucking problem.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:57 Madman97 It's called common courtesy.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:57 Cheatcodechamp Thats not the point, the point is it can be abused, it dosn't matter if if it can be fuxed
 * *fixed
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:57 SuperSajuuk So?
 * if it's abused, the user loses it AFTER it happened!
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:57 Atvelonis It is in no way worth causing vandalism to make the process speed up
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:57 SuperSajuuk we do NOT assume that a user will abuse it before they've even had the damn button!
 * this is proof of a lack of good faith
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:58 Madman97 That's why voting is what I like to call, "Insurance."
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:58 SuperSajuuk and that's not meant to put people down
 * No it isn't, it is a popularity contest
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:58 Madman97 Just because you don't mean to hit someone with a car doesn't mean it can't happen.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:58 Atvelonis It's still important to keep the fact that users are capable of vandalism in the back of your mind
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:58 SuperSajuuk Atvelonis
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:59 Cheatcodechamp I assume good faith until either you prove otherwise. By the time you are up for being a mod or Sysop, you should have had the time to show who you are, at this point we have an idea who they can and will behave.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:59 SuperSajuuk that is bad faith
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:59 Atvelonis No, it isn't. It's being cautious.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">1:59 SuperSajuuk being over cautious about rollback ?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:00 Atvelonis When someone makes an edit, I am never expecting vandalism.
 * All the same, you can't ignore the fact that vandalism is a real thing.
 * We wouldn't have the patroller position in the first place if vandalism didn't exist.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:01 SuperSajuuk yes, vandalism happens
 * but patroller wasn't created from vandalism. The wiki has ALWAYS had rollback but it just decided to have a custom group made.
 * a user can easily revert vandalism just by having rollback and NO custodian tools
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:02 Atvelonis Rollback wouldn't exist if there was no vandalism.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:02 SuperSajuuk Rollback is a core MediaWiki flag.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:02 Madman97 You are not getting that it can still happen. Shouldn't we try to prevent it?
 * Instead of going off of a hunch?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:02 SuperSajuuk No, you make a judgement call and assume good faith. If the user abuses the tool AFTER they get it, they lose it
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:02 Madman97 How many times do they abuse it before they get ousted?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:02 SuperSajuuk I should not need to go through a pointless vote for one extra button that I can replicate with the history page
 * you would get a single warning and then it would be lost.
 * in fact, rollback is generally only meant to be used for vandalism, nothing more.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:03 Madman97 And from who would you get the warning?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:03 Atvelonis Sajuuk, with that logic everyone should have sysop powers.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:03 SuperSajuuk No.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:04 Atvelonis "Well, they haven't done anything bad YET, so of course it's safe to make them administrators"
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:04 Madman97 Well guess what Sajuuk. I NOMINATE MYSELF, because in good faith, I think I have what it takes to be an Admin.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:04 SuperSajuuk @Madman: anyone? if a user sees another abusing a tool, he/she should have every right to call them up on it. Why do you think Erik the Mad has a long talkpage history of users complaining about abuse of undo?
 * way to take the whole thing out of context
 * @Atvelonis: how on earth is someone meant to prove they will NOT abuse the additional access tools of sysop until they've GOTTEN the flag?!
 * seriously.
 * how can I abuse delete pages until after I have it?! only sysops can delete pages!
 * so how am I meant to prove I won't abuse it if I don't have it?!
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:05 Madman97 (That wasn't my point Sajuuk) The point was that just because someone maybe could make a mistake once or twice by accident and then having them getting their post taken from them without voting on it seems like even more of a waste of time than voting itself.
 * And one more thing, in response to your last question.
 * Insurance. Voting gives people confidence and, as you might say it, "Good faith", reinforced by the fact that you played by the systems rules.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:07 SuperSajuuk and as I have said a lot of times recently
 * rules are not the law
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:07 Atvelonis Sajuuk, you prove it by making good edits and showing that you are responsible.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:07 SuperSajuuk they are simply guidelines that determine best practice
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:07 Atvelonis If they're not laws, then why do we ban people for breaking them?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:07 Madman97 Exactly.
 * Took the words right out of my mouth.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:07 SuperSajuuk people get blocked based on a JUDGEMENT CALL by the sysops
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:07 Madman97 Mods ban people from chat.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:08 SuperSajuuk because the policies are written to make them laws
 * when they are not
 * because
 * the previous administration who wrote them were more interested in restricting what people could do when it's not about restricting user's ability to do things
 * a wiki is about a collaboration, this isn't some democracy where sysops make rules and everyone bends over like servants to do what they want.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:09 Madman97 Or they could have just wanted the chat mods to keep order and things got out of hand.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:09 SuperSajuuk No, the policies for chat were written by Jimeee who wanted everyone to stop having fun, I was here when that happened
 * you couldn't say anything without stupid warnings
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:09 Madman97 Literally, that was the only reason he created those rules?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:10 SuperSajuuk the chat was not a welcoming place as anything you say could be used to get you kicked
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:10 Madman97 Just because you couldn't say the word "C*nt" in capital letters doesn't make the chat an unwelcoming place.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:10 Atvelonis If we take a "meh" approach to policies rather than treating them like laws, the wiki is actually going to deteriorate
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:10 SuperSajuuk Jimeee, for all he claimed, did nothing to improve the wiki in the last year. All he did was go around telling people off for policy violations, when maybe he should have realised that the policy should have been changed, but he just kept adding policy after policy to give himself more reasons to block people for one violation.
 * No, it won't.
 * because if the wiki has sysops who actually know what they're doing and not incompetents (no offence meant towards CCC, I assume you to be a competent sysop based on your experience elsewhere), we won't have a police state where one bad edit equals a block
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_Can't_Follow_All_The_Rules,_All_The_Time< read the "Nutshell" bit
 * yes, it's Wikipedia, but completely relevant to any wiki on the entire internet.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:12 Madman97 But you just told me that anyone who calls out a bad edit for a patroller or something would get One warning and then a ban, one more mistake before they get sh*tcanned. How is that not a police state?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:12 SuperSajuuk No, I didn't say that Madman, you took me out of context
 * I said that if a rollback was abusing the tool, it's fine for him to be warned by anyone about it
 * and if he ignores another editor, it shows he has no interest in taking on board advice from the editors of the wiki.
 * which makes him liable to lose the flag
 * patroller and rollback are two different things completely, something this wiki decided to merge and confuse the meanings of
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:14 Madman97 "@Madman: anyone? if a user sees another abusing a tool, he/she should have every right to call them up on it. Why do you think Erik the Mad has a long talkpage history of users complaining about abuse of undo?" Your exact words when I asked you who would give the warnings if someone made a bad edit with their tools.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:14 SuperSajuuk And where do I see the words "they'd get one warning and then a ban" ?
 * and why the fuck would someone be blocked for abusing a rollback button? they'd just lose the flag and continue editing as though they didn't have the flag
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:15 Madman97 You said anyone, and previously, you said "I should not need to go through a pointless vote for one extra button that I can replicate with the history page you would get a single warning and then it would be lost." One warning? How ridiculous.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:15 SuperSajuuk No, it's obvious you are taking what I am saying out of context and using them in the wrong context.
 * I did not say that at all
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:15 Madman97 I asked you how many warnings a person would get! I literally copy and pasted what you said!
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:16 SuperSajuuk but where, in these copy/pastes, have I even alluded to what you are claiming?
 * you are saying one thing and pasting evidence that doesn't even prove it!
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:16 Madman97 SuperSajuuk No, you make a judgement call and assume good faith. If the user abuses the tool AFTER they get it, they lose it 2:02 Madman97 How many times do they abuse it before they get ousted? 2:02 SuperSajuuk I should not need to go through a pointless vote for one extra button that I can replicate with the history page you would get a single warning and then it would be lost. in fact, rollback is generally only meant to be used for vandalism, nothing more
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:16 SuperSajuuk thanks for copying IN CONTEXT >_<
 * MisterSir has joined the chat.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:17 SuperSajuuk and I mean that a user would receive a warning and that would be a reminder for them that rollback is only for reverting vandalism, not just every edit you do not like
 * if a user continues to get requests for explaining rollback reverted edits on non-vandalism, that shows they believe the rollback to be a button to revert any edits they don't like, and they'd lose the flag
 * that's how it works everywhere else.
 * this is like one of the very few wiki's with a warped idea on actually how to run one, no offence.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:18 MisterSir I think
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:18 Madman97 Ugh, this is the right context! Your point towards CCC is that we shouldn't have a police state where one bad edit equals a block. I simply brought up the fact that you had previously said that a person would get one warning and then they would lose the tool.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:18 SuperSajuuk but you are making it sound like that if a user loses a flag, they can't continue contributing!
 * just because a user LOSES a flag doesn't mean he can't get it back.
 * if he showed he knows how to use it properly, he can get it back.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:19 Madman97 Loses his position I mean, but how can someone spawn good faith for themselves if they had failed previously? Who wants that as their patroller?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:19 SuperSajuuk because people change?
 * they work on their flaws?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:20 Madman97 Discussion is just words if no one officially agrees to anything. Thats why voting is necessary.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:20 SuperSajuuk No Madman
 * voting is NOT NECESSARY
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:20 Madman97 I agree people can change, but that doesn't change the fact that they can always make another mistake.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:20 SuperSajuuk and we punish for one mistake? no.
 * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:You_Can't_Follow_All_The_Rules,_All_The_Time< read this
 * read it in full
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:21 Madman97 That's what you were insinuating with your past comments. I apologize if that's not what you meant, but that's what it sounded like.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:21 MisterSir <span class="message me-message" style="white-space:pre-line;color:rgb(118,118,118);">* MisterSir watches attentively
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:21 SuperSajuuk that wasn't what I was trying to insinuate in any way
 * I just think we are being way too harsh, too restrictive and being overall overprotective over a bunch of user rights that don't make a user any more important than others
 * if I were to become a sysop, I wouldn't start just making changes just because I can.
 * I would do it the REAL wiki way, which is to gather a consensus through discussion.
 * as I have said previously
 * policies don't dictate the proper way, they're just the communities consensus on best practice, every case is different.
 * that is why I keep explaining this.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:23 Atvelonis So, you want us to stop using voting and just use discussions?
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:23 Madman97 It's anarchy, is what it is by definition.
 * <span class="time" style="color:rgb(118,118,118);float:right;font-size:12px;">2:23 Madman97 It's anarchy, is what it is by definition.