Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150927173200

Oh wow, there is so much stuff to reply! I haven't even been able to read it all. Although I am really glad Bronkiin could fill in for me while I was gone. I'll try to respond to as much as possble, but I apologize if my writing looks messy. :P

College Mage: Ferris wrote: Well, except for Gen. Tullius doesnt have to run the hold, just the Imperial forces. Elisif still runs the hold with her council, and has little to do with the actual war itself. Which, is really how it should be. She runs the hold, and a general commands the army. Solitude doesnt seem to have ANY problems similar to Windhelm's. And before anyone can say "it's because he's doing both" well he's dropping the ball on both. Run your hold, or run your rebellion, pick one, because both are suffering from the lack of attention. Oh really? The Blackblood Mauraders operating in the Hold and setting up shipwrecks is not a problem? Or that Potema was resurrected and was assembling an army of undead to prepare for an attack WITHIN the city? What does Tullius do about any of that? Nothing. Also, you are largely incorrect about Tullius and Elisif’s roles to the Hold. It is Tullius who controls the foodstocks, the wealth, the trading and the military of Solitude. Which makes up the most important aspects of the Holds. Elisif is officially the Jarl, but doesn’t(and/or cannot) conduct herself with the business of Solitude. Most of the minor work she has left to do is handled by her steward instead. In other words, Tullius is the inofficial “High King”, while Falk takes care of the minor business (per usual of what stewards do). Only reason why Tullius cannot claim full rule is due to ancient traditions. The Nords would not accept a foreigner to directly rule them. So Elisif is pretty much just a gateway for Tullius to control Skyrim without making it look like an occupation from another country.

Well, I only use him as an example because his first and primary concern is to his people. He shut and locked the gates when a dragon was about, and is shown to be the only such Jarl who actually sent out men to kill a Dragon. (on top of being the only Jarl to capture one) And while yes the Dragonborn assisted, he didnt do anything dragonborn specific. By that I mean he didnt use his Thu'um to force the leaders to agree to a temporary ceasefire, and for capturing a Dragon he just taunted one out of the Sky, Dragonreach was designed to capture dragons. Bottom line here is just that Balgruuf was able to multi-task, staying neutral for as long as possible, maintaining peace, keeping trade running, allowing his court wizard to study Dragons while actively helping him wherever he can, etc etc. He's got a lot on his shoulders but he still keeps the hold together. Um… no? Every Jarl(Imperial or Stormcloak) issues bounty contracts to kill dragons. It is true that Balgruuf was the very first to do so. But every other Hold, great or small, follow that trend once they confirm that dragons are real and that they are a major threat. And I don’t understand why you thought I was referring to the Dragonborn assisting using his dragon powers. I never said that. I just said it was the Dragonborn who did all the work, with or without powers. Was it Balgruuf himself who fought the dragon? Was it Balgruuf who traveled to High Hrothgar, Solitude and Windhelm to arrange a temporary truce? That is what I’m saying. Balgruufs only part in this was giving orders to the Dragonborn. Meanwhile, he can run his Hold as usual. Which, like I said, any Jarl can do all that without effort. Also, the only reason he was able to capture a dragon was due to the unique dragon trap in Dragonsreach, which has existed since Olaf One-Eye. Had other Holds had such a powerful contraption, a dragon could be potentially caught in other Holds as well. I do like Balgruuf a lot, as he is one of my(if not THE) favorite Jarls(which is one of the few reasons why I feel somewhat reluctant about the Stormcloaks too). But you are giving him far too much credit than he deserves. His simply acted the way any Jarl should act over a major threat in his Hold. The only difference was the actual threat itself.

By ignoring the plights of his own city, he isnt doing a good job of being a good Jarl. And just because his people act racist, doesnt give him a pass, inaction is just as bad. If anything, his people had so much respect for him, he could have lead by example, and they would have followed. Really, what plights is he ignoring? The Dunmer live in habitable homes, but want it to look better? Is that a good reason for him to stop everything he is doing? He already fulfilled his job of providing safe haven to the refugees and giving them free shelter where there is room in the city, as everywhere else all houses are occupied by their respective owners. He isn’t obliged to do anything further beyond that point. As I said before, maybe he listens to the plights, but prioritizes them lowly due to other matters far more critical. And I disagree. If Ulfric issued major changes in his city, he would have to deal with riots and violence within his city which would distract his plans of rebellion. It would also hurt Ulfric’s image of being a “freedom fighter” if he acted tyrannical against his own people. I think Ulfric laying low with certain matters of his city might be the wisest move.

The Dunmer do reach out tho. The first time you go to the Gray Quarter who hear Malthyr speaking with Brunwulf This is them reaching out, and trying to have a Nord represent their concerns in hopes that the Jarl may finally hear them. Thing there is that asking the Nords to upgrade their homes is basically them asking for handouts(when they have already received safe haven in the city). That is not reaching out to them properly. When I say that, I mean that they try to live up and along with their fellow Nord citizens. If a non-Dunmer came to the Jarl and asked him to give him money to repair the interior of his homes, would he get it? Of course not. The Dunmer cannot ask to be treated equally and at the same time demand benefits no other regular citizen would get.

I understand we have no record of anti-empire speeches before the incident, however, everywhere I go when concerning the markarth incident makes mention of militia being established BEFORE the incident. If it specifically said Ulfric was contacted, and then he assembled a warband together to fight the reach, I could agree that maybe he didnt hate the empire. But what I've seen and read all state things like this: Ulfric agreed and marched his militia to the gates of Markarth and ruthlessly retook the city using the power of his Thu'um. (Does not say he assembled it, it states he just marched, which would indicate it was previously established)

"Desperate to regain control of the Reach, Skyrim accepted the aid of a Nord militia led by Ulfric to reclaim the hold from the native Reachmen, in exchange for permitting the free worship of Talos in Markarth." (Again, it makes no mention that the indicent cause him to form the militia, it makes it sound as if he had it already)

Nothing I've personally seen suggests he made the militia with the specific intent to stop the reachmen, it suggests he just happened to be the one Jarl with an armed force. The fact it doesnt state that it was his own hold guards also tells me it wasnt just his hold's forced, he was building an army. and THAT is suspicious. Wait, what? None of those quotes even imply that he had a militia on forehand either! It just says he marched a militia. Which is what you do in any scenario, whether if you had one already or assemble it later. Also, your first quote comes from the wiki page of the Markarth Incident, which was written by a wiki user. It doesn’t directly quote in-game sources. It is paraphrased and only tells of the big picture of the Incident. And the other quote you brought up comes from a book with questionable validity and lacking information. If you can somehow find some kind of proof that Ulfric had gathered his militia before he was contracted to reclaim the Reach in those few lines, then it’s all you. Myself, since there is nothing concrete that suggests anything of the sort, I am not going to believe it. And no, it was obviously not the soldiers of his Hold. Once again, Ulfric was not Jarl at that time, so he could not gather an army of Eastmarch soldiers. Also, there is a reason Ulfric’s army is called a ‘militia’. Militia: generally is an army or other fighting force that is composed of non-professional fighters; citizens of a nation or subjects of a state.

To me, "sorting itself out" would imply they had a lack of interest in the problem, where as having a lack of resources to help merely places them in the same boat as the other Jarls. It wasnt as if they were unwilling to help. Since the Empire owns the land, it does largly leave the day-to-day running of the province to the respective Jarls and High-King, their alliance is mostly for peace and trade, and on the off chance another province declares open War. They wouldn’t be obligated to send soldiers EVERY time a hold needed help. (Jarl disputes over land would be chaotic). But they were unwilling to help. The Empire won’t send soldiers due to them needing to keep their own borders secure. It is true that they don’t need to send help over every minor threats(like bandits in a Hold). But this time, a force great enough overtook control of the Hold. If there is a situation the Empire should send their troops, then that was it. Which they didn’t. On the contrary, they took soldiers out of the Reach during the Great War, leaving it defenseless and thus allowing the Forsworn to successfully take over the Hold with ease. The Empire is ultimately responsible for them losing the Reach to the Forsworn and yet they won’t do anything to fix it. I know the Empire had its hands full, but that doesn’t acquit them of the responsibility.

You are correct there, I was looking at the release part that was cut. I'd argue it isnt as straight forward as "or else we invade" its the risk, of a threat, of invasion. The Thalmor just want to stir up trouble, Elenwen doesnt have the power or authority to jumpstart an invasion. It's not as if Elenwen can send a missive to Summerset "Tullius didnt attend my party, time to invade" and the Dominion responds in full force. The WGC itself is just a mask of "peace" each side wears, they both know they'll be going at it again real soon, but the Dominion is just in the better position at present to keep trying to put the Empire in Check, it didnt afford the Empire anything, except the ceasefire. But the Thalmor gained authority within the territory. It's all basically political warfare at this point. But then why does the Empire show fear over trivial matters like that? I can understand that they might purposely look inferior to trick the Dominion. But thing is that both sides military strength are equal. So why does Tullius fear of war if he misses a party? If they really declare war, then they fight. There isn’t anything more than that. That doesn’t sit right with me. To me, it seems that the Empire is just overly cowardly to stand up to them. Their strategy is to allow themselves to be pushed around until they can find an opening where they can strike back. Which I could see as a viable strategy, if the Empire didn’t overdo it. Caution is always good in any situation, but in too large doses, it can be detrimental. I feel that the Empire is giving too much liberties to the Thalmor when it comes to their "superiority".

If the argument you're making here is that "had the Empire not fought the Stormcloaks over the WGC, there would be no civil war" I could say the same of the Stormcloaks, had they not fought the Empire on the terms, we wouldnt be in the civil war. The Empire isn't fighting the Stormcloaks for the Dominion, or even for the WGC at this point, it's to restore order, and because the Stormcloaks have done TOO MUCH to ignore... like killing a high king for example. Ultimately, yes, it's because of the terms of the WGC, but the rebellion is too far gone now for it to just be about free Talos worship. No, there is of course more to the rebellion than just Talos worship. When spoken to Ralof, he never even mentions Talos worship at all. He(like Ulfric) mentions the issue of the Empire of utilizing the Nords to fight their wars for them and forcing them to pay for the debts the Empire has racked up from the Great War. But thing there is that Skyrim has always supported the Empire in the past. They wouldn’t have minded to help pay for Cyrodiil’s rebuilding or given continuous military aid, had it not been for the WGC. That was the whole reason why the Nords even fought in the Great War to begin with; to protect their right of worshipping Talos. If not, then they could have stayed out of the war. I don’t think thousands of Nords would have sacrificed themselves just to retake a capital of another country and then immediately surrender. The Imperials tricked the Nords and that’s why they feel betrayed. And rightfully so. It’s ALL about the WGC. Had it never happened, there would have been no reasons for the Civil War to happen at all.

If you weigh the lives of those who were too stubborn to secretly worship Talos, against the lives of literally the entire province, then yes it is ok in my opinion. The entirety of Cyordiil was covered in war, major towns sacked, the imperial city sacked, countless lives lost. Theres no mention in the history books the dominion ruled in peace or prosperity during the short time they were in charge. The Empire traded their pride for the lives of its people, and in exchange all they had to do was not openly worship a specific god. For every 1 person dragged off an tortured, there's at least another dozen who are alive and well because of those terms. So I say again, yes, it's horrible that it happens, but countless innocents were saved. As for the debts, you're not the first I've seen make claims the Empire has some huge debts, but where is the proof of this information? I've not ever seen anything that said any other province had to pay some huge debts, or that the Empire HAS a debt at all.

Entire province? No. That is so incorrect. Look at the Stormcloaks. A legion of Nords. In the Imperial Legion, of equal size, only a certain chunk of it consists of Nords. If we cut out all Imperial and Redguard soldiers from Tullius’ Legion, they will be so much inferior to Ulfrics army. I would say, army-wise, that the majority of Nords are AGAINST the Empire and the WGC. Otherwise Ulfric would not have this much support. You can think what you will about Ulfric, but you got to give credit where credit is due. As for evidence of debt, it is pretty obvious. They took massive tolls during the Great War and had continuous unrest in the Empire. It costs a lot of money to fix all that.

Then there is are some dialogues mentioning this: “I fight for my people, impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves!”- Ulfric Stormcloak

"The Nords are tired of spending our blood fighting the Empire's wars, and paying for the Empire's decadence with our taxes." – Ralof

And really, we don’t know if the WGC was really necessary too. The Redguards, when left to fend for themselves, still managed to fight off the Dominion. The Thalmor also had most of their army destoyed out. This could have been a unique chance to wipe of out the Dominion from the face of Tamriel once and for all if they still fought. Possibly, but not sure. Signing the WGC has bought them time, yes. But it doesn’t mean it has bought them a future victory either. Allowing the Thalmor to recover might even have been a terrible mistake, considering the future conflict in Hammerfell and Skyrim.

The Imperials have never leeched anything, they did trade with Skyrim, but there wasnt any leeching. leeching would imply that the Empire takes all the silver ore from every mine in Skyrim, and then sends nothing in return. There is no compromise any longer, Ulfric threw out that idea when he murdered the high king. He turned what could have been a discussion, into outright violence. You can't blame the Empire entirely for that. it is stated Torygg could have been reasoned with, and within this very discussion we have come up with several non-violent (towards allies) ways everything could have been settled. Ulfric took things too far. There has always been a form of trade with Skyrim and the rest of the Empire. But the Empire is now smaller with less wealth and influence. And in recent time, they have raised taxes on the working people and the trading ships without giving any kind of compensation. That means while they still trade, they give less while they are taking a much bigger cut than before. Thus they are leeching of Skyrim. Leeching: habitually exploit or rely on. Also, I highly disagree with the statement that the High King could be reasoned. Sybille Stentor said first that Torygg looked up to Ulfric and maybe could have been persuaded. But right that after she will explain why Torygg didn’t want secede Skyrim. That means that Torygg might not have gone through with it anyways.

But the biggest problem I see is that the Empire would not allow such a thing. Since we established that the Empire owns everything and them losing another province would devastate them, it would be illegal for Torygg(who merely acts as a representative of the Empire) to retract the Empires ownership of Skyrim. It would be like if I owned a house, but I allowed someone else to run and maintain it for me. Then that person decided to relinquish my ownership of the house and take it for himself. It would be theft. If Torygg would try to secede Skyrim, the Empire would declare him a usurper and traitor(pretty much like with Ulfric) and the Legion, who answers to the Emperor, garrisoned WITHIN Solitude would overthrow Torygg and place another puppet at the throne. This all leads back to my argument that in order for any kind of seceding of Skyrim, it would mean withdrawing all Imperial influence from the province, either willingly or by force. And the Empire would hardly willingly let go of all the wealth from Skyrim. When reasoning does not work, violence is the next option. If the Empire didn’t see this coming, then they were fools. Thus why I blame both Ulfric and the Empire equally for the cause of the Civil War. Not just Ulfric.

Because Skyrim IS the Empire, because they're not in any better shape than Cyrodiil is currently and would need help, because they don’t have the man-power or the supplies necessary, because the Empire is an organized Military force and not just a bunch of people banded together with the strongest up front, so they can peacefully secede, instead of violently, so that when the time comes to fight the Dominion they won’t need to ruin any more of Skyrim, take your pick of the reasons. Hey, hey! Come on now. Are you seriously implying the Legion is better than the Stormcloaks? We have already been through with this. The Legion and the Stormcloaks conduct and organize their warfare in the EXACT same way. Once more, you confuse the past and the present when it comes to the Empire. The Imperial Legion is not the same fighting force that swore to keep the peace and protect the citizens. Now they are simply thugs in a big gang war between Nords and Imperials. They make the same mistakes as the Stormcloaks(like one Legate getting tricked with false order, them losing their shipments to the other side, and prison breaks in one of their forts.) The only thing the Legion has over the Stormcloaks is larger numbers. But that argument is moot, since they cannot send more soldiers without weakening their own defense.

I would blame the mechanics for the soldiers repeating themselves, but I'll entertain the idea, even if it was "many" of their family, that number still pales in comparison to the number of innocnet lives that would be lost, blindly continuing to fight the dominion. The Stormcloaks are "unprepared" because even if the stormcloaks win the civil war, they've taken HUGE losses between the Civil war, dragon crisis and vampire crisis, plus, as we discussed before, their economy is about to crumble they are in no shape to go mounting an invasion, and barely prepared for defending their own lands. The Empire on the other hand, only has a single legion in Skyrim, its other forces are on the borders, and have had no real major events happen since the great war, so the past 27 years since the great war has all been preparation. I know that, I was just thinking that the 3 Stormcloak lines would be shared among the entire army. For example: one third of the Stormcloaks joining because of "the Thalmor dragging away their relatives", and another third joining because they don’t want “snotty elves telling them what they can worship”. Sorry for that clarifying that earlier. As for you argument about the Stormcloaks not being prepared, the very same thing could be said about if the Empire. There will be equally huge losses not matter which side wins. And the dragon and vampire crisis don’t magically go away just because the Empire regains control of Skyrim. I am not sure what kind of point you are trying to make with that argument. Neither side will be fully prepared against the Thalmor. Also, it is true that it has been 27 years since the Great War, but the damage has not been repaired even now. The Empire still has a debt of war costs that isn’t fully payed. This includes compensations for all the countless dead Legionnaires and rebuilding of all the counties of Cyrodiil that was sacked, including the Imperial City where their entire treasury were looted. Then there has been more chaos from the aftermath of the Great War within the Empire. Wayrest being seized by the corsairs. The loss of the ebony mines of Raven Rock. A war between two of Cyrodiil's two largest skooma traffickers, that resulted in riots and destruction on Bravil. Even after 27 years, the Empire cannot have recovered that much. Thus why they still have debts to pay. Cyrodiil itself is probably pretty impoverished themselves and that’s why they drain the other provinces while giving back only the minimal they can afford to give. In Skyrim, these mentioned events have happened only over a couple of months. Neither the Dragon or Vampire crisis has taken a truly devastating toll on Skyrim, as Skyrim and its people remain mostly intact, with the major exception of Helgen. But it doesn’t really matter, as both will be resolved by the Dragonborn. After Alduin’s defeat, the dragons scatter and many of them leave Skyrim. And when Lord Harkon dies, the vampire raids on the cities become significantly less.

I First; I dont believe Hammerfell would ever leave its home in order to fight the enemy in cyrodiil. But if they did, you're assuming that Skyrim and Hammerfell would cleave through a huge portion of the Dominion's forces unimpeded. But What I was saying is they'd be lead inward and flanked, even with 2 to 1 odds in their favor, if they get flanked they're done for. This is all assuming the Imperials are not around to properly help, because THATS the only way an independent Skyrim, allied with Hammerfell is going to march into Cyrodiil. If what you're suggesting is all 3 of them work together, or that Skyrim and Hammerfell simply march through Cyrodiil without the consent of the Empire, the war is going to be far worse, and far more bloody then you or I could imagine. Hammerfell is bitter towards the Empire, why would they save them? They proved they can defend their own lands, why would they need to help anyone? Skyrim just fought for its independence, why would THEY save the Empire? so it can rise up and try and take Skyrim back again? Skyrim has repeatedly tried to invade Hammerfell, why would they suddenly work together? The Thalmor threat would have to be so immediate, and on their doorsteps for them to work together, and as i said before, by then it's too late. Why not? They want to battle the Thalmor. And if they are in Cyrodiil, they just have to go there. Alternatively, they strike at the Dominion itself while all their troops are out from their territories. No troops mean they can’t be flanked by anyone. If both the Empire and Hammerfell(and even an independent Skyrim) attacked, they would have to fight along. They can do that without having to like each other, you know. You are kind of insinuating that just because they don’t fight under the same banner, their fighting chances will be reduced. I don’t really see the logic in that. On the contrary, having different leaderships arrange an assault can even be a benefit, by combining different tactics. And I never said they would save the Empire. They just want to fight their common enemy. This isn’t about helping anyone really. Skyrim wants to fight the Thalmor. Hammerfell wants to fight the Thalmor. And the Empire wants to fight the Thalmor too, although on their own terms. It is all about their own plans and desires. But since they all desire the fall of the Dominion, and if they all have armies ready for war, they might be compelled to form a temporary alliance. It is the only logical move, for the sake of survival of each respective nation. Also, I had no idea Skyrim tried to repeatedly invade Hammerfell. I couldn’t find anything in the Lore about that. But then again, that must probably have been a long time ago. I doubt that Hammerfell would deny themselves a much-needed ally over a long past conflict.

By "start from scratch" I meant the ingredients, not the farm. From seed to sandwich. Cold weather, particularly frost, causes the water in plant cells to freeze, damaging the cell wall. This is why its much harder to grow plants and vegetables during the winter months, and Skyrim is nearly Winter all year round. Everyone comments on how the land is harsh and breeds hardened people. If it was winter all year, then all of Skyrim would be covered in snow and ice. That is only the case with northeastern part of Skyrim. Everywhere else its sunny and green all over the place. And all the farms still prosper, even in the snow. Even if its tough, it still works.

potatos wouldnt be effected much, and POSSIBLY lettuce, but things like wheat couldn't grow during winter Tell that to Hollyfrost Farm, Brandy-Mug Farm and Hlaalu Farm. All crops growing from snow and, guess what? Its wheat. And ONLY wheat. And surely there is more that can be grown if more effort will be put into raising farms. I’m telling you, there is plenty of evidence that Skyrim is a ripe country for farming.

Do you mean to tell me they've all just been holding back on farming? Food is scarce enough as it is, and a commodity, anything you grew that you didnt need could be easily sold, why would ANYONE not farm as much as possible? As for hunting, if you hunt too much, animals leave, die off, or worse, other animals like predators (bears, wild cats and such) lose THEIR food source and then have to find NEW sources, roads become more dangerous, and the places like farms become targets. Good hunters will know just how much they can hunt before it causes problems, and that typically isnt enough to suddenly start feeding a war torn province. Ulfric paying the hunters, (or any Jarl really) would mean the money has to come from somewhere, and for Jarls their income is mostly in taxes, so you'd have to add that on top of whatever other taxes that get raised from losing their economy. Because of the Empire, Skyrim had enough food. Thus there is no point in starting a business in that area, since people will only buy as much as they need. If there is too much, it will spoil and cannot be sold. After all, starting a farm is an investment. No point in doing that if you aren’t going to make that spent money back. And Skyrim has a great amount of animals, both wild and cattle, as it is evident from their favorite type of armor: hide and fur. “Often we are swathed in the hides of beasts, for such creatures are abundant in Skyrim, and we would be foolish not to take advantage of such an available resource.” – Nords of Skyrim. And aside from animals, there is plenty of fish in the rivers(especially in Riften) to serve as food. See, there IS opportunities for food in Skyrim. It just takes many years of hard work to harvest all of it. They haven’t taken those steps since it wasn’t necessary at that time. As for your argument with predators attacking the farms, all farms, even distant ones, have guard patrols giving protection. And the hunters only hunt as much as they need to survive. If they received freedom to hunt without legal issues and a slight compensation, it would be resolved. As for wealth (in form of tax money and silver), they will have it available. Since it no longer goes to Cyrodiil, they can use it for the benefit of Skyrim. As I think it should be.

I never said "food for warriors" I said "Trade" which means not just food, but ore, furs, equipment, tools, clothes, commerce, and its give-and-take, not just take and give to the empire. Also, your argument starts by suggesting Skyrim has been holding back on farming and such, and that theres plenty of food but now at the end here you've come around to seeing food would be the biggest issue. If food really is their biggest issue, then it'll be worth more then any gold or silver, which means places like High Rock can charge nearly whatever they want to ship them food supplies. Well, my apologies for not being clear. When I said obtaining food will be the “biggest issue”, I meant it will be the thing that will be the most difficult thing to do. Everything else, like trading goods with other countries, can be manageable. Even if they can’t trade with Cyrodiil and High Rock(even though I believe they still can. I will refer to my previous theory of what will happen with High Rock if Skyrim secedes), there are other countries like Hammerfell and Morrowind. And there is the EETC too. Obtaining more food is going to take much, much more work. Thus why I referred to it as the “biggest issue”. And High Rock cannot charge ‘anything’ they want. Its basic economics. One must balance the price with the consumer. If the consumer can’t afford the prices, he wont make deals with you. And if he wont make deals with you, then you will lose money yourself. And High Rock itself is dependent on trade with other countries.

The EETC is practially owned by the Emperor, and it's stated on their own page they control the prices due to the monopoly they have over trading. They not only can, but have proven they WILL charge whatever they want, and during hard times, demand rises, when demand rises and supplies are limited, businessmen make ALL their money from times like this. They love it. the Empire could even use it to its advantage and starve out Skyrim into submission, that IS a common war tactic.

You realize how borderline retarded that would be? Let’s think about it for a second. Sure, they can do that to regain the province, but what then? In the meantime, there will be starvation, higher rates of crimes(and Forsworn activities), riots and property damage and even more deaths of soldiers and workers. Not to mention they will be economically ruined. It would mean that the Empire must take money out of their pockets to fix up the province. And that is NOT what they want. The want the other provinces to support THEM with wealth. Not the other way around. It would defeat the purpose of regaining control of Skyrim. If the Empire is smart, and if Skyrim secedes, they will leave the Nords alone, at least until after the next Great War. Even if they don’t control Skyrim, they will still make for powerful, albeit reluctant, allies. Not allies of agreement, but allies of a common cause.

While the current state of the Empire isn't all that great it's still had more time to recover (again, it's been nearly 30 years since the great war) even with the strife going on, and rebuilding, they havnt had anything major like dragons attack that have impeded them, they also KNOW they're going to be fighting again, and thus have been spending all this time preparing for that. Skyrim's problems are more recent, and fresh. And with so much commerce depending on the Empire to lose it all NOW is abig mistake. As you and I have agreed, yes Cyrodiil should be their main focus but as I've said numerous times, NOW is not that time for Skyrim to break away. While I agree there's parallels to be had on both sides, the major difference with Skald and Siddgeir would be Skald would blindly force his people, at least Siddgeir has business sense, he wouldn't just give away precious resources, and hell he wouldn't even do it for personal profit, He's super lazy and dependent on his lands and people to continue to cushy life style he's accustomed to. He wouldn't just hand all that away, he'd make deals that benefit him and keep his position not only intact, but relevant in case he were to need or want more. He's condescending and annoying but he is not just a yes man or a sycophant like most who follow Ulfric, Skald especially. How has the Dragons impeded Skyrim so much? Like you said, it only happened recently. Its not like it has been tearing Skyrim apart for a longer time. Dragons are like any other wild animal, except bigger, fiercer and with greater mobility. They mostly stick to the wilderness and scare people of the roads. Like any fierce animal can do. They rarely attack settlements, but it happens conveniently when the Dragonborn is nearby to stop it. The only time a dragon has caused any kind of massive amounts of deaths and property damage was at Helgen. But that was a very unusual and isolated incident. Thing is also that, the longer Skyrim keeps draining itself for Cyrodiil, the more devastating the abstinence effect will be in the future. After the Great War, the provinces will fall back to depression and economic ruin. Cyrodiil might be able to bounce back with all the help they received, but as for the rest, they might not bounce at all. Because everything they had will have gone to Cyrodiil. Only way to restore those provinces if Cyrodiil helped them. But will they really do it? Considering that they typically let go of provinces to fend for themselves when they can no longer help, Skyrim would be doomed beyond redemption. The situation will be so bad, it will make Stormcloak Skyrim look like a golden age in comparison.

Skald isn’t a “yes-man”, as you describe him. He does listen to reason at times. When he tries to enlist Madena and she says no, Skald folds to her answer. When Angi says that he can’t have both soldiers and lumber, Skald will accept it. And when Jod tells Skald that he can't ask everyone to throw themselves against trained Legionnaires and just leave the fighting to the Stormcloaks, he will agree. In the case with Siddgeir, EVERYHING he does is for personal benefit. All the Empire has to do is support his lavish lifestyle with gold and products, and he will do whatever they say. The only ones who would suffer would be the people of Falkreath, but what does Siddgeir care about that, as long as he receives expensive clothes, trinkets and food. In a sense, Siddgeir might even be slightly (but not much) worse than Skald. Both overly spend the money of their respective Holds, but Skald spends it on the Stormcloaks, which is bad but that money can serve a greater purpose. Siddgeir spends all his money on himself, which serves no purpose than his own. Another reason why I like Skald a wee bit better is because of a very positive perk he has: his age. He looks to be around his 80’s and could possibly croak at anytime. And then someone more reasonable will hopefully take his place(like Brina or Jod). Siddgeir, however, is in his prime age and will live for many more decades and keep siphoning the wealth of Falkreath during that time. Unless, of course, he takes a dagger to his throat. Which would not be surprising either.

Not entirely true, the Jarls who support ulfric send men, gold, and supplies, it isnt JUST Ulfric who is funding this war, which is what makes it so difficult to handle. I'd argue resources are low in Windhelm because Ulfric has been paying too much attention reaching for High King, then he does running his Hold. I agree tho, if he were to get ahold of the Silver mines, he would be in a better position, but for how long? Any businesses aligned with the Empire in Skyrim (there are several with large amounts of influence and money) could launder that money back to the Empire, Ulfric himself will mention he knows the Empire wont just let them go, and thus the Empire may come back for those mines, and even if they didn't once the economy changes, food will be worth more than any silver. And the Empire will be looking to get back lost resources through taxing.

If Skyrim breaks apart from the Empire, it will sever their ties. It will become difficult and illegal to launder the money back. With the exception of EETC, the only businesses that are directly aligned with the Empire is possibly from Erikur ( I cant think of anyone else. But do inform me please). And I honestly wouldn't mind seeing that pompous fop starve a bit. Ulfric says that the Empire might come back at some point, but that doesn’t need to be true. Especially not at a time like this. The Empire will have lost far too much to bother with it. If they plan on doing that, they can only do it after the Second Great War. And long after too. Its not enough to simply capture the provinces of the Dominion, they will need many years to quell all Thalmor activities. And there will be huge losses in that war too, so the Empire won’t have the men to retake Skyrim. It will take decades, if not a whole century or more, before they get there. The question is; will the Empire really care at that point? Especially if they possibly decided to only include Cyrodiil as a part of the Empire. I’d say Skyrim will be, for long time ahead, safe from the Empire.

You don't think the Empire is using that to their advantage? They can't very well work on plotting an invasion with the Thalmor roaming free. It'd be SUPER easy to hide their numbers. They know they're going to attack the dominion eventually, the dominion knows it, everyone knows, letting them think they're seeing the full force as a bare bones operation is just the basics of espionage. The Empire has tons of its own spies as well. The Empire knows the Thalmor are reporting back everything they see, why wouldnt they try to control exactly what it is they see? intelligence can make or break a war they wouldnt let them openly see EVERYTHING.

Perhaps they are. But in that case, why even have this rebellion? If the Empire wanted to purposely look weak, they could just share the idea of their ploy with the rulers of Skyrim? Get them all involved to make a scene where it would look like Skyrim wants to secede and that the Empire has no choice because they are "too weak to control" all the raging Nords who are against the WGC. They even conveniently had a situation with Ulfric demanding free Talos worship in exchange for the city. The Empire will pull out the Legion and keep them posted at the border of Skyrim in case of trouble. That way it will look like the Empire has lost another important ally and it will acquit Skyrim from the WGC, while they secretly keep in contact and informs the High King of their plans. And if the Dominion attacks Cyrodiil, they will not expect an army of Nords coming to their help.

This was just a crude example. But really, they surely could have planned their ruse a lot better without upsetting all their allies.

Rolff is much more then a dog, and you ignore what his attacks do, and what it all represents. Firstly, he is not alone, Angrenor Once-Honored is with him, and active within the conversation of harassing the dumer woman. So we know its not JUST 1 drunk roaming around. He is later seen several times roaming the gray quarter at night actively yelling things. This is open harassment that is going on unchecked. I'd be willing to bet, if any dunmer were to stand up to him and tell him to leave just so they could get some sleep, a fight would break out and the dumer would be the one arrested. There are plenty of guards around, no one stops him. I dont have access to a list of Windhelm Laws, but I'm pretty sure disturbing the peace especially at night would be on there. Listen to what he says: Rolff: "Maybe we'll pay you a visit tonight, little spy. We got ways of finding out what you really are." That's a blatant threat of violence. "Don't like it? Too bad. This is our city. Ours!" No where else do you see this kind of attitude. He even mentions "Maybe I should round up some men and take us a few prisoners to interrogate." The guards just let him do whatever he pleases, and according to Ulfric, the Guards should know their duties, so either their duties include not caring about the dumer, or every guard in windhelm is not fit to guard anything. What attacks? Verbal? It’s just words. The Dunmer can use words too. Rolff hasn’t physically assaulted anyone. And he wouldn’t dare, because its against the law. Ok, fine, so there is possibly two people. Although I doubt it, as you will only see Rolff and Angrenor together once. Everywhere else, they stay separated and don’t talk with eachother. There is no other hint that they could be conspiring. And you are wrong. I will use the example with the Dragonborn again, and please don’t throw it off as “just game mechanics”. When the Dragonborn tells Rolff that he doesn’t like his attitude, Rolff will begin rambling about its “our city” and will himself challenge for a brawl with money on the line. When he loses, he will honor his deal and give what he owed and begin to slightly respect the Dragonborn. I think that it’s pretty common for Nords that once they meet their match, they will begin to respect that person. If some Dunmer would call out Rolff for being the unlikable, piece of garbage that he is, Rolff will defend his honor and challenge the offender. Brawls are legal and guards cannot interfere (also, people yell at night outside bars all over Skyrim. I don’t think is a problem in Skyrim, considering how many of the populace loves to drink mead. I mean, just take a look at Heimskr! Thats all he does, every day, all day!). And if he gets beaten to submission, he will likely have a nicer tone or shut up completely. Nothing persuades people better than a good beating. :) And the reason why the guards probably don’t do anything about it is because Rolff is constantly drinking and would never be sober enough to organize anything. And probably lazy too, since it would take time away from his drinking schedule. Like I said; big mouth, no teeth.

If this was the only problem windhelm had, sure, i'd agree, but it has way more problems then that, and if this is what we can expect from the new high king, Skyrim is doomed, he can't run a hold while at war, yet he expects to become high king and rule the country and fight a different war at the same time? Disturbing the peace would be illegal in any other hold, as in Whiterun a redguard is arrested for it. so what he is doing IS illegal, and no one is stopping it. Haafingar can’t run it better, as I mentioned previously. The problems in Windhelm aren’t near as bad as the ones in Haafingar, especially with the Potema situation. The difference with Ulfric and Tullius is that Ulfric has a bigger incentive to keep Skyrim intact. After all, what’s the point in being a king if your kingdom falls? The Empire doesn’t give a damn about Skyrim or its people. They only reap the benefits of owning the country. After Skyrim can’t bleed anymore for Cyrodiil, who will guarantee the safety of Skyrim then? Had the Mede Empire had a better history of handling their provinces, I wouldn’t feel this worried for Skyrim under Empire rule. But considering of what happened before…

Also, in the case with the Redguard, if you will notice how the Alik'r works; they obviously violent and does not care for laws. When the guard says that he would "lock them away for what they have done"

He's speaking about his own race, and he's trying to help so you (the new comer) don't end up becoming racist. It's the same as hearing an american police officer have to say "not all of us are like that" because of all the racist cops. Within the first 30 seconds of entering Windhelm you're exposed to 2 drunks yelling at a dumer over the color of her skin and threatening violence, of course Bunwulf is going to try and stick up for nords by saying not all of them are like those guys. He can't outright deny there are racist/nationalistic nords, that'd be super ignorant, so instead he's opted to try and be as nice as possible so everyone else doesnt start to hate ALL nords. Hoesntly, I don’t really see that much racism in Skyrim as Brunwulf claims. In the case with Dunmer, they have the biggest presence in Windhelm and Riften, due to their close proximity to Morrowind. In Riften, you will see no trace of such racisms. Everyone there treats everyone equally, Nord, Dunmer and Argonian alike. In the book “Scourge of the Gray Quarter”, it tells how Dunmer refugees have properly assimilated themselves into the Skyrim way of life and thus they have no problem with the local Nords. Same could be said when you look at the elves living in the other cities. Only in Windhelm, according to the book, says that the Dunemr were not excepted to do anything. And so they apparently did. I am aware the book could be possible propaganda full of exaggerations and even blatant lies, but I sense some truth in it, based on what we see and hear in-game. It could explain why the Gray Quarter is now a slum and is not traceable to the Nords treatment. And also explain why the Nords harbor dislike for the Dunmer. But regardless of all that, the biggest source of racism lies in Windhelm. That is why I think Brunwulf was referring to the Nords of Windhelm when he is trying to clarify that “not all Nords are racists”. It’s the only thing logical. Either that, or Brunwulf truly believes that everyone who supports Ulfric is automatically a racist and a bigot. Which ITSELF is a narrow-minded and bigoted way of thinking. Either way, Brunwulf comes off as somewhat suspicious, at least to me. He mantles that responsibility when he chose to become jarl, and when he chose to start this rebellion. I agree there are those who blame him for WAY too much, but that kind-of comes with the territory, like how people blame the Empire for tons of things IT had no control over. Being in that position of power has that side effect. It is ultimately up to the individual how they act, which is why its all the more important as a leader he lead by example, and his example is reflected in Windhelm. But Brunwulf is the only one in that city who is trying to overcome it, and he can only achieve that goal if he's Jarl. Actually, a Jarls greatest responsibility is to serve and protect the people. Not to tell people what to think and how to act. That is why I disagree with your statement that “The Jarl reflects their people”. That is not true with most cases. In Winterhold, the Jarl wants to ban the College, but his people actually appreciate the College because it’s the only source of revenue that passes to Winterhold. The Jarl in Hjaalmarch is all for having a wizard to live in the Hold, while most everyone else is against it. In Falkreath, the Jarl is lazy and pompous while the people are hard-working and more humble. In the Pale, the Jarl is a warmongerer while the people don’t want to be involved with the war. See, jarls has nothing to do with how people acts, so you can’t blame Ulfric if his people show prejudice against Dunmer. It is out of his control. What do you want him to do, arrest people for hating Dunmer? Again, it would make him look tyrannical, just like the Thalmor. Also, it is not Brunwulf who should overcome the racism, it is the Dunmer who should, through hard work and adapting to the norms of Skyrim. Which I would say most are doing just fine. It will just take a while.

So all the dumer have to do is just join Ulfric's cause in order to gain some respect and maybe get more rights? I understand it's typical Nord custom, that you perform some act for someone before they respect you, but it's a lot to ask someone they pledge their life to your cause. All the dumer and argonians are asking for is the same rights given to the Nords. The argonians in particular ARE doing hard work and enduring terrible living conditions, AND being paid way less then any nord would be paid and havnt been given ANY respect. You mistake me; I meant that they just need to prove themselves to the Nords, before they can receive respect. In this case, it would be hard work. However, you do bring up a good point. If several Dunmer joined the Stormcloaks, the Nords of Windhelm would be shocked when all their prejudices is proven wrong and will have to reconsider their views on them. It would be an option.

But did you ever wonder why *specifically non-nords* show no interest? What is it either Ulfric or his recruiters are saying that would make nearly all non-nords not want to fight for *his* cause? If it was just free Talos worship and Independence it should be easy to drum up support, those are noble goals, but there's something else going on. Which is why I feel Windhelm answers that, his Nationalistic ideals are being viewed as being only Pro-Nord (not saying he's racist or anti-nord) but he seems to specifically be doing things that would cause ONLY nords to join in under his banner.

I have to really disagree here. For the dumer, it's the worst part of town, and named after their skin color. it's like telling someone they HAVE to live in "Black Ally". this is on top of the constant harassment thats ignored by all law officials. The argonians don't even get a quarter to live in, they're all stuck living in one single room! Animals are literally treated better. If you believe it's really "not that bad" you really need to take a second look. It's not that simple tho. No dunmer is standing around complaining their house isnt as pretty as the nords, speak with Aval Atheron, a business owner, and a home owner, and he will say: "I'm a Dark Elf and I live in Windhelm, so yes, I live in the Gray Quarter. You must be new around here, or you'd know they don't let my kind live anywhere outside that slum." So it sound slike its not "I wish my house was pretty" it sounds like all they're asking for is the same basic rights the other citizens have. Aval is the shining example of a hard working Dunmer, not getitng any respect simply because he is a dunmer. His siblings BOTH work for Nord families, still they're FORCED to live in the Gray Quarter. They don’t have to live in the Gray Quarter. Just save up some money, and buy Hjerim. Or a patch of land outside. Or just move to another Hold. They are NOT under house arrest. Also, the reasons why they received just THOSE houses were because there is no room elsewhere in the city. Everywhere else, it’s occupied. What do you want the jarl to do, ask families, like the Shatter-Shields, to move out of their house to let Dunmer refugees live there? Of course not. The homes in the Snow Quarter were vacant for some reason, so they live there. Even if the houses are crap(which they might not even have been until the Dunmer moved there), it’s far better than nothing. The Dunmer should think a little of what they have received before complaining. Also, what do you mean Aval doesn’t get any respect? He get customers browses his store frequently and is being treated to like a normal person. When the Nords talk to him, they speak to him properly and respectfully. Same with his siblings, working on the farm. The Nord woman, Bolfrida, constantly listens to them and respects their opinions. See, this is how you gain respect from the Nords. The only reason they still live in the Quarter is due to lack of finances to move elsewhere. And not to mention, no room else in the city. It has nothing to do with racism. In the case with the Argonians, they live just like the laborers in Riften; in a bunker. Except they get to live for free. Would you say that the laborers of Riften gets treated worse than animals? And the reason why they don’t get much pay is not because of Ulfric. It is Torbjorn Shatter-Shield who deals handles the wages. I believe it is more due to greed than rasicm, as he is described as a money-clinging miser. But he is definitively a bit racist too, although not racist enough to not be persuaded to raise their wages to a more normal standard. See, this is what I mean that “the racism can be overcome”. It might be more complicated than everywhere else, but still doable. Also, when I said that the Dark Elves and Argonains “don’t really suffer that badly”, I meant there are people who do worse than them. They all got jobs and roofs under their heads. Guess who doesn’t have it? Rolff, Angrenor and Silda. All Nords. At least two of them live of begging from other people. Rolff probably gets his drinking money from Galmar, as he has no income. Not that I feel too much pity for either of them, with the exception to Silda, but before you say Dark Elves and Argonians are the most poor and worst treated in the city, think again.

it gets a bit tricky here, as it may depend on specific Laws within the hold. Yes you as the drgonborn pay to have your house look nice but what you're paying for is to furnish it. which yeah, obviously you pay for your own chairs and such. But the Walls and structures of the buildings could be up to the Jarl, after you attack Windhelm several structures including the stone pillars around the blacksmith remain damaged, it strikes me as ironic and odd the blacksmith hasnt repaired it. I know its more likely just the game mechanics getting in the way again, still without any direct evidence in like cut content that would suggest you were supposed to rebuild it could ultimately be up to the Jarl to maintain the buildings within his capitol city, thats part of what Taxes is supposed to pay for. Also Brunwulf does mention needing to get the supplies necessary to fix the buildings, which either means he's being generous or it is the Jarls job. make what you will of that. I could argue that a Jarls job is ultimately to serve his people, and his people should at least be able to live in structures that somewhat protects them from the harsh cold especially in a place like Windhelm covered in ice all the time. Have you ever taken a look inside Hjerim, before its furnished? It looks just like a house in the Gray Quarter, without a lot of furniture. Same with every other house you buy without improvements. When you purchase improvements of your house, you not only get furniture, but a section of the house gets repaired and tidied up. Also, the houses on the outside looks fine. No holes in the roofs or the wall. These homes can ward of cold just as well as any other. The only thing that differs the houses in the Gray Quarter from the rest of Windhelm is its inside esthetics. I dunno, if I was a refugee that had to flee from my homeland because of devastating, natural disasters, I would be pretty happy if I even got to live in a small shed at a back alley. I would be even happier if I could live in a 90% intact estate inside Windhelm. These Dunmer comes off as rather spoiled and demanding for being refugees. But it could just be me.

Well to start with... your own words: ''"Yes, the Nords(particularly in Windhelm) holds a bias against the non-Nords." / " I will agree with you on the part where that fact that almost all recruits in the Stormcloaks are Nords, which can be seen as racism. But then again, from what we see in the game, most non-Nords show no interest in Ulfrics cause."''So we agree, theres obviously a bias in his own Capitol. Brunwulf will tell you its the speeches he gives, Ulfric's own Wiki page has stated: "With several of his policies being nationalistic in tone, many non-Nord and some Nords consider Ulfric to be prejudicial."

This Dialog between Scouts-Many-Marshes and Ambarys:

''Scouts: "Why do the Nords bother you so much, Ambarys?" Ambarys: "Why do you even need to ask? They treat your people as bad as they do mine." Scouts: "I think that's just their way. The Nords don't like anybody who's not a Nord, but they're not bad people, deep down." Ambarys: "Look around you. Don't you know what their little war is about? They want all non-Nords out of Skyrim. That means you and me." Scouts: "Oh, I doubt that very much. Who would load their ships, then?" Ambarys: "Just you wait and see."''

Theres Ulfric's Speech before you fight in Solitude: "We now fight our way to Castle Dour to cut the head off the legion itself! And in that moment, the gods will look down and see Skyrim as she was meant to be. Full of Nords who are mighty, powerful, and free!"

This speech when you take the city: "Will she acknowledge that it is we Nord's who will determine Skyrim's future? Will she swear fealty to me, so all may know that we are at peace, and a new day has dawned?"

Like I said I dont see him specifically as racist, because I believe racism comes from intent, and he doesnt intend to harm non-nords, but all this stuff adds up. He's *Very* Nationalistic, and thats is dangerously too close to racism...

First off, I will refer to my previous statement about quoting wiki pages. There is no line in the game that says “With several of his policies being nationalistic in tone, many non-Nord and some Nords consider Ulfric to be prejudicial.” That is the words from a wiki user, not from the game. Now, in the first quote, Ambarys claim that the war is about getting all non-Nords out of Skyrim. Firsly, there is no such reference of that in the game. At all. Secondly, I call BS on that, since it would by physically impossible for Ulfric and his Stormcloaks to kick all non-Nord out of the country. There are non-Nords within the courts of Stormcloak Jarls. There is also(at the very least one confirmed) a few within the army itself. And there are plenty of Nord people who have befriended many non-Nords or are even married to them. Trying to do that will be the biggest idiocy ever. I am certain that Ulfric isn’t that stupid. That’s a little bit more like an insult than a reasonable critique. As for the next quote, I see what you did there with putting bold text on only parts of that sentence. No no, you got to take the whole line into account. He doesn’t just say “Full of Nords”(which would in fact imply that he only wants Nords in Skyrim). He says “Full of Nords who are mighty, powerful, and free!”(which would refer to the oppression of the Talo ban and that the Nord will be free to worship again.). And in the second line, he says that Nords should rule Skyrim. Which makes sense to me. The Nords are the native and ancestral people of Skyrim and, more importantly, makes up the majority of the people. So they should have the bigger say when it comes to their country. It is true he is very nationalistic. Perhaps a bit too much for his own good. But I don’t think he will tip over to racism just like that. If he becomes High King, he will have so much more important matters to think about than race relations.

S'Dalaar the Snowcat, please report to Solitude to be fitted for your Imperial Armor, do you wear Light or Heavy? =P Pfffft! Bear armor is way more badass than roman uniforms. :D