Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150826231921

College Mage: Ferris wrote: It's not an exaggeration, it's the literal definition. Hostage is defined by "seized or held as security for the fulfillment of a condition" Ulfric refused to hand over the city until his demands were met. You could technically call that treason if you wanted to exaggerate a bit. at that point in time he was a Jarl under the rule of the Empire, he should have handed control back to the Empire, instead he demanded they break the terms of the peace treaty they literally JUST signed. Prompting the Thalmor to send "enforcers" since the Empire could no longer be trusted to enforce it themselves. Who is to say they didnt attempt an agreement with Ulfric? The lore only mentions he gave them the terms and the empire eventually eventually agreed in order to regain control. right or wrong, what he did was illegal, and honestly stupid to poke the dominion that way.

To clarify, Ulfric's was not Jarl during his campaign in the Reach. His father died during his imprisonment, which was after the Markarth Incident. He was just another Nord militia, with no other ambition than to fulfill a request from the Jarl of Markarth. I will agree, since it was Ulfric and his Nord militia who reclaimed the Hold, he thought he had some kind of ground to demand some form of compensation from the Empire. Which I would say is not entirely unreasonable. But rather than demanding personal revenue and benefits, he wanted a place free from the WGC where the Nords could still worship Talos. I would hardly call that "furthering his own goals". After all, it did not benefit Ulfric personally. Although I will admit it was very naive of Ulfric to believe his plan would have actually worked. That is my only criticism of his actions during the Markarth Incident. His intentions was good, but poorly planned out.

What would you suggest the Empire do? Stand with Ulfric and allow Talos worship after just signing the White-gold concordat? They JUST achieved peace and were getting ready to rest, and in come Ulfric demanding the terms be reversed. You can't sign a treaty and then immediately redact on the terms. They pretty much just agreed to whatever Ulfric wanted in order to regain control. Why is it not ok for the Empire to reneg on those terms but it's OK for Ulfric to have held an entire city hostage to further his goals?

No, I completely agree with you. The Empire should NOT have accepted Ulfric's terms. I will say this for a third time: they should have worked out a different deal, along with additional compensation(s). Just because Ulfric first demanded free Talos worship doesn't mean his mind could not have been chnage. If Ulfric was indeed "greedy and power hungry", they could have easily have bought him off by raising his power status in Skyrim. Maybe make HIM their sanctioned High Kind instead. Also, it is a bit wrong to compare the Empire's betrayal and Ulfric's so-called "illegal occupation". Because they are two different things. Unlike the Empire, Ulfric didn't lie and betray anyone. He just did his job and he wanted some kind of compensation for it. His demands was obviously a bit too much, but that is where the Empire should have compromised. A theory I have of why the Empire decided to not compromise with Ulfric is that it would have displayed their weakness. As you just said, they are in a cold war with the Dominion and can't give the Thalmor any indication of them lacking strength and ambition. Basically, the Empire needed to show that they are the big boss with everything under their control with an iron grip.

I don't agree with the idea of the Empire bowing to the Dominion if Ulfric had attacked the Thalmor directly. I believe the dominion would have leaned on the Empire to do SOMETHING, however it's more likely they would have just let Skyrim go as they did with Hammerfell. Theres precedence here, they literally already did this. The WGC doesn't state the Empire has to fight the Dominion's enemies. If skyrim "invades" an embassy, and Skyrim is apart of the Empire, it would mean the Empire is invading, the Dominion would lean on the Empire to get it's collective shit together, the Empire would most likely try and demand Ulfric stop fighting, Ulfric would have told them to"help or sod off", leaving the empire with the options of either letting Skyrim go in order to maintain the peace, or as you said, fight Ulfric, but why would they choose the option that means losing more soldiers? It'd be eaiser to let Skyrim become independent, pull your troops, and maintain trade. Sure Ulfric would probably send out the propaganda that the Empire is too weak and are toothless, etc etc, but theres no way the Empire would choose to go into open civil war. Had Ulfric actually done that instead, he could have kept the Thalmor busy while the Empire regained its strength.

The Empire is in a cold war with the Dominion, they are not a puppet, they don't bow to the Thalmor, they don't have Dominion forces listening in on war councils, they hate each other and each is just waiting for the other to make the first move. The only reason the empire is fighting the Stormcloaks now is because Ulfric killed the High King, amassed an army, and started spewing anti-empire hate speeches. The Empire needs Skyrim, and can't have a Jarl of all people committing acts of violence, and causing dissidence. The Empire protecting its own asset just fueled Ulfric's flames, and here we are. Hammerfell didnt agree with the Empire either but they didnt start killing Imperials or standing on soap boxes claiming they no longer NEEDED the empire, they just kept fighting the Dominion.

That is what they did when the WGC was signed. The WGC doesn't necessarily say that the Empire must fight the enemies of the Dominion. But like I said before, would it make sense if the Empire(Thalmor "allies") helps a Stormcloak ruled Skyrim(Thalmor enemies)? The Dominion would surely object to this. I am pretty sure they would bow down if they had the tip of an Aldmeri sword at their throat. They handed over a whole province when the Thalmor drew up the treaty terms. And as the Markarth Incident shows, they complied once more to the Thalmor demands. The Thalmor can even force high ranking Legion officers to attend their parties without them having any choice. Maybe I am wrong, but I think, for the sake of "peace", the Empire would be capable of doing pretty much anything. As long as it doesn't cause direct harm to them. Thing is also, it is a bit misguided to compare the seceding of Hammerfell to (a possible) seceding of Skyrim. If the Empire could, they would have preferred to not to have to let Hammerfell go. But they were forced, or else no "peace" could be made. In the case of Skyrim, they aren't forced to anything. Like I said when I replied to Ottoman; they would lose more if they just let go of Skyrim than if they tried to fight and reclaim it. Otherwise, if they didn't want to lose soldiers, then they should have let Skyrim go when half of Skyrim stood up against them. Whats the difference this time? Torygg dying? Anti-Empire hate speeches? The Empire hardly gives a damn about either. I can't be just be that. The Empire isn't that stupid(or maybe). Also, in the case with Hammerfell, the only reason the Redguards didnt start killing Imperials or standing on soap boxes claiming they no longer NEEDED the empire, is because the Empire didnt even try to enforce the WGC on Hammerfell. Not to mention all Imperial troops were recalled when the WGC was signed, so there were no Imperials to fight. But mark my words, if the Empire were trying bully the Redguards into giving away their precious lands to the Thalmor by force, it is pretty safe to say that the Reguards would have made resistance with the Imperials as well. I guess that could be another reason why the Empire decided to let go of Hammerfell. Why should they help the Thalmor gaining their lands?

Why does everyone expect so much from the Empire? they literally just lost and rewon their own country back, and yet everyone still expects them to solve all of Tamriel's problems. They took the most losses from this war, and they're still trying to maintain peace, and regain control, but everyone else around them it using it as an opportunity to fill their own agendas and somehow that all equals out to the Empire is too weak to hold power.

Eh... only Skyrim has someone trying to "further his own agenda", as you put it. In Hammerfell, I don't think there was a power hungry usurper who kept fighting the Thalmor. This was a united stand by all Redguard soldiers. Thing is that if the Empire wants to rule over several other countries, they need to make sure they provide security and safeguard that country's interests as well as their own interests. Holding an Empire together takes big responsibility and lots of time and resources. That is just what the Empire can barely do in it's current state. So why should the Empire continue to control the politics and the economy of other countries? Because they still have the old name of "The Empire"? Like we both agree, Cyrodiil would be better of ruling and re-organizing just themselves, rather than trying to divide soldiers and the little resources they have on other countries. In a sense, kicking the Imperials out of Skyrim might even help them realize this and take proper actions before it's too late.