Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26356342-20150817191441

You (also) bring up excellent points, and it honestly can't be stated enough how refreshing it is to have a dialog, which goes back and fourth. I also enjoy anytime I have to go fact checking or researching. Also; welcome back Ottoman, and welcome any and all new-comerers and watchers/lurkers. please feel free to join in the conversation, or ask clarifying questions. S ' Dalaar the Snowcat wrote:Well, I guess I would give you that much. But the thing is they could surely have planned this better. The Emperor could maybe have summoned all the counts of Cyrodiil to a secret meeting to discuss the situation and come up with an agreement to prevent civil war. But that’s thinking a bit too broadly on the subject. I had to look at the timeline for this one, because they may have been able to handle it better. But once I did, I found out within the same year (4E 171) that the ambassador arrives, they're invaded. Within the second year they've already captured the Imperial City, So I don't think that they would have had the time to gather up all the counts. It sounds like they barely had any time to even defend themselves. Indeed. You don’t send all your troops, only just enough (or maybe a little more) so they can retain control of the province. It is evident that they didn’t have that, since they needed to recruit Nords into the Legion just so that they can, at the very least, be tied with the Stormcloaks..... With their forces watching the border, they could barely afford the single legion they sent, but on top of that, why not recruit for the coming "Great War 2: Even Greater". Technically speaking, The legion didn't even need to recruit more soldiers, by the start of the game, the Imperials already won. They had captured Ulfric and were about to put an end to the rebellion.... and then Alduin appeared. And I personally think that should speak volumes on the capabilities of even a smaller force of well trained legionaries. You're right about the Dominion, not being able to immediately launch an invasion if they take Cyrodiil. They will be weaker, but not totally weak. But lets think for a moment what that could mean for Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock, the Dominion doesn't just gain the province, but they also gain any and all ships, supplies, weapons, magical artifacts, etc that the Empire has been barely holding onto. And without an Emperor to rally around, and no place to really retreat to, we wont see a second battle of red ring. With the posistion the Dominion would have after invading, they could just wait for Skyrim to come to them. (Ulfric wouldt just let the elves hang out by the border for very long) They could (heavy heavy speculation) even just taunt Ulfric into invading south, bottle neck them at the Jerall Mountains and cost Skyrim a heavy chunk of their army. BUT as a bit more speculation, that could ultimately be a good enough cause for Hammerfell to approach Skyrim to form an alliance. You see, the Thalmor could easily ride in a ship to a dock(like Solitude) and overtake it. But then the Stormcloaks garrisoned in the city would marsch to the docks and easily slaughter the elves, because a ship can only hold so many soldiers. The Dominion will have lost a chunk of soldiers, the port would be retaken and the Stormcloaks would have gained a transport vessel for their future war against the Dominion. If ESO has taught me anything, a smaller force in close quarters, dug in, can withstand full armies. I know this isn't ESO, but whenever we discuss fighting in a war within the universe, That's as close as I can come, having served on the front lines several times. It can really show you the advantages of High Ground, and capturing strategic points and such. But even so, If you go into a save file, go to the solitude docks, and start the killing spree, look how easy it is to just own the dock. You may need to scale your level down and maybe use non enchanted armor and weapons and such for the best results. The stormcloaks would probably eventually win, no question but how many do they lose trying to take back the port? And on top of that how many supplies do they lose when the Dominion ship the supplies back to their own men? or how many ships get burned at the dock? Even if the Dominion lose men in the fight, it could cost the Stormcloaks much more. 

Well… you are actually right about that. But, you know, if you put one of those former miners, farmers, commoners or shopkeepers against a Legionnaire, a supposedly well-trained and disciplined soldier, you will see that they are pretty much tied. So what does that tell you? That either Nords are such a badass race, that even the most inexperienced Nord can whoop the asses of well trained warriors (I admit, I would like to believe that very much :D ). I admit I do like that better as well, hearty Nords able to just pick up whatever is laying around and just wreck things. It gets a bit murky here tho, as it kinds bleeds game mechanics into Lore, Does the game allow them to be even because it can't have one force visibly superior to another or is it the lore suggesting the townsfolk of Skyrim can pick up an axe and join any fight and be fine. I personally can't comment on either case because they're both likely. So I will just say I agree Nords are badasses.

They will indeed not allow the Imperial military forces back. For good reason too. Unless they make some kind of secret and very profitable negotiation. Thing is that even if Ufric hates the Empire for enforcing the laws of the Thalmor, he understands that the Thalmor is the real enemy (or at least Galmar does it, but Ulfric listens a lot to Galmar).

Well, I could make the argument (and have before) that If Ulfric REALLY understood the Thalmor were the real enemy, he could have just fought THEM instead of instigating the Empire, and seceded from the Empire THAT way (like Hammerfell). This is the part that urks me about Ulfric... not just because his actions don't make sense, but because THAT is where I see the disconnect between the Stormcloaks and Ulfric. It strikes me more that Ulfric has a personal vendetta against the Empire, because he feels bitter about fighting FOR the empire and him feeling (rightly) betrayed by them. But then he starts to rally a rebellion claiming its for freedom and such, and to the common Stormcloak it IS about freedom but then I look at Ulfric and think, "freedom" is just the pretty frame of his picture of vengence. It appears (again, to me at least) freedom is just the bi-product of his real Goal, not the goal itself. I do see a lot of people mention how good of an adviser Galmar is, but the main interaction I see between the two of them is Galmar suggesting stabbing whoever doesnt listen and Ulfric being the one to say "no, we're not gunna do that". I always just got the impression Ulfric was the more level headed between the two. And I agree we do still see the east Empire trading company in Skyrim after the war, but we also still see the Thalmor Embassy, So it could just be enough time hasnt past yet to really see if Ulfric allows them to continue business. And Like you said we dont really have reason to believe he wouldn't, but who's to say he doesn't raise their taxes to dock so much that the EEC doesn't WANT to trade through them any more. (or none of it happens and everyone wins).

 Morrowind was still part of the Empire when they got sacked by the Argonians. And I wouldn’t say they had little sway there. They had House Hlaalu, one of the Great House at their back as well as King Helseth(if he is still alive). I know others have come along and pointed out the timeline error, but I still think your overall point is still valid. When i said the Empire had little sway, I was referring to the fact that House Hlaalu was the one the other houses took their Empire aggression out on, during/post oblivion crisis. But anyways, your point about The Empire helping rebuild Skyrim, I think they would, they would HAVE to, they asked the most from Skyrim, there's no way they would just forget about that. The Empire has a lot stacked against it, and as I said (and we both agree on) the Empire needs to focus on Cyrodiil first and foremost, but As We believe the Nords are hearty badasses on their own, I've also go to believe the Empire wouldnt drop the ball on repaying Skyrim for all it's already lost once all this is said and done. (it could be how Skyrim attains legitimate independence). To your last line tho,

"That is why I think they should take their troops and corrupted influence out of Skyrim and focus entirely on reorganizing themselves for the next Great War."

I agree and disagree here, I'll say once again they're not corrupt (or at least not as much as everyone keeps saying they are, it almost just feels like a filler word, like when people say all Stormcloaks are racist) but IF they leave Skyrim, That would mean letting go of Skyrim, which not only means losing the province, but then it puts a strain on the whole WGC cold war. I had mentioned before in the last forum, before we moved here, it could mean the Dominion uses the WGC as a means to force the Empire to allow them to set up troops to invade Skyrim Through Cyrodiil without needing to take out the Empire first, The Empire of course says "No way are we letting you bring troops in" and then you have the Ambassador situation all over again, where they push the invasion date up, and choose to invade right then, before Skyrim even HAS a chance to recover.