Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-209.7.3.188-20160303204000/@comment-30011802-20161102173717

Blademaster Jauffre wrote: Terawolf119 wrote: Ulfric bad? think about this,                Worship of Talos Talos was one of the most worshipped Gods of all deities in Skyrim, as the player finds out while he plays the game. However, this worship was forbidden by the White-Gold Concordat between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion to result in piece. Skyrim never decided or was even asked about this. The Empire only uses this as a valid rule since it doesn't want war with the Dominion (Hence the quote from Imperial Soldiers "What the Stormcloaks like to forget is that the Empire is what is keeping the Dominion from Skyrim"). This is obviously not very nice of them. Talos was one of Skyrim's national symbols, essentially. Imagine if you forbid Christianity in America. What would happen? Rants, rebellion since Christanity is so common in America. All Stormcloaks are asking is to get back the fredoom of worship, which, I believe, many would consider normal. People wish to worship whoever they want. The Thalmor don't have any place in saying people what do to, and their reason is not necessarily strong. The position of Talos as a deity is somewhat implied in the game. The player can get his blessing, which improves his stats, essentially proving Talos exists. Normal people can't give blessings through ther shrines, now, can they?

So, to conclude, Talos is a very important part of the Nordic culture. However, Imperials forbid it without even consulting with them. Thus, the Stormcloaks have the right to rebell and fight for their rights. __________________________ I'm going to explain why Ulfric isn't a murderer or a bad person.

First, I want to note he is a highly trained soldier, a very good leader (seeing how he named a whole army of his name and how loyal it is to him). As for the murderer part, it is heavily implied that, he, in fact, had a fair duel according to the Nordic customs. He didn't use his voice to kill the High King of Skyrim, but his sword. The voice was merely a tool to get him on ground. Thus, he cannot be called a murderer.

II know that Ulfric is this honorous Nord, I have two proofs. Some more stuff for you to chew on,
 * 1) Not only Ulfric tells this story his way about the duel, but Sybille Stentor as well, the very court wizard of Solitude. She claims she was there when the duel happened. Ulfric challenged the High King and he had no choice but to accept, due to the customs of the Nords. Therefore, this murder wasn't a cold blooded assassination.  If Ulfric is killed during the civil war quest, and then the player continued to the main quest, he will see Ulfric in Sovngarde, the Nordic afterlife. And Sovngarde is a place for valiant, courageous Nords. [3] This obviously means Ulfric wasn't a bad Nord, and fought for good.

 "The Empire needed to sign the White-Gold Concordat or else it would've been destroyed".

The Dominion made the largest army in Elven history attack the Imperial City, to which the Empire destroy all of them. This had to have taken a toll on their armies. And since Elves reproduce slower, they probably have barely recovered. So really the concordat was worthless. You might be asking yourself, "If they could've won why did he sign it at all?". In big wars like the Great War, people get very tired of fighting. This probably happened to the Emperor and the Elder Council. The Dominion, despite losing, didn't seem the giving up type, so the Emperor must've thought they could just make peace together, but that decision lead to the oppression of the people. Not the salvation of the Empire.

"The Empire is going to fight the Dominion after the civil war ends"

A lot of Imperials use this to justify them joining the Empire. But this isn't actually true. If you talk to the Imperial Legate if Riften they actually say after the wars ends they plan to invade Morrowind. That shows after the civil war they are NOT going to fight the Dominion. The only people who say the Empire has any plans of fighting anytime soon is some soldiers and Tullius, but they don't make that decision. It seems to be mearly speculation that Imperials have made because they think the Empire will fight back. But that doesn't mean it's actually true.

"The Empire is the best hope for unity in Tamriel".

This might sound right on the serface, but the deeper you dig, you'll realize this argument is false & misleading. Since the Empire is of course... an Empire people think they will put all the Provinces together, but this is untrue. The Empire has made enemies with two Provinces. Hammerfell and Morrowind. Hammerfell because they abandoned them when the Dominion was trying to fight them, and Morrowind because they refused to help them with the Argonian invasion. The Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elswyer are all part of the Dominion, so they can't get help from them, Black Marsh has stayed out of the war for a while so I don't think they'll be joining soon. Which means the only two Provinces they have are Skyrim and High Rock. But if the Stormcloaks win not only will they lose Skyrim, but they wouldn't be able to get connection to High Rock. The Stormcloaks on the other hand, seem like they could unify Tamriel. They actually asked High Rock if they wanted to join them, the Redguards have similar ideas to the Stormcloaks, and the Dunmer hate the Empire and the Dominion. If these four nations teamed up to fight an already weak Thalmor, the fight will be a walk in the park. So the Stormcloaks are really the best hope for unity in Tamriel. First of all, your first argument is unreadable, if you want me to counter it, make it readable.

Now, let's start off.

Talos

Talos is an Imperial God, this is a fact. As to the ban being enforced, this only occured after the Markarth Incident, which was staged between Ulfric and the Thalmor. Sure, you can blame the Empire for wishing to keep themselves alive, but it wasn't until Ulfric 'liberated' Markarth that the Thalmor came to Skyrim. Some food for thought.

Ulfric

First of all, Ulfric is only a good leader to the Nords, not the rest. His Stormcloaks got their name as a mockery by the Imperials. He killed Torygg with the voice, wether you consider that murder or not is a point of debate, what does matter is that it's cheating and that he therefor loses his claim to the throne through the duel. Aside from that, Imperial law decrees that Ulfric is a foul murderer, the duel customs of the Empire have been mentioned in TES III and Redguard. Ulfric didn't even give Torygg the chance to surrender, despite that being part of the duel customs.

1. Just because Torygg had to accept doesn't prove Ulfric is honorable. Also, Sovngarde is the Nordic afterlife for those who died valiantly in combat. A Nord is not remembered for how he lived, but how he died.

Dominion

Please, do give me a source which states it was the largest army. The Dominion could've won the Great War if they wanted to, as prove in this loading screen: Great War 2
 * 'Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War.' -Loading Screen: Skyrim

'Most of the Legion is tied on the border with the Aldmeri Dominion.' -General Tullius

So no, they don't intend to invade Morrowind, they have a launching point into Morrowind just in case, whatever 'just in case' means is never explained ingame, most likely it is in case House Redoran starts posing a threat to the Empire, or the An-Xileel, we don't know though. Not to forget, General selected by the Emperor to go to Skyrim > A Legate.

The Nords made the Empire

Never heard of this argument, nor do I support it, so I won't debate it.

Unity of Tamriel

The Redguards acknowledge the fact that the Empire is needed to defeat the Dominion. High Rock ignores the Stormcloaks. If you honestly think that Hammerfell will ally with the Stormcloaks you haven't heard of their national pride and the cities of Dragonstar and Elinhir. Not to forget, it's not the Dunmer it's House Redoran and its supporters. Telvanni for one couldn't care less about who rules Morrowind, with House Hlaalu backing the Empire. Morrowind doesn't have an issue with the Dominion either, really. Talos: so what it was only enforced when the Thalmor came to skyrim not realy something to lean on for leverage.

Ulfric: Using shouts is fare combat when it comes to the nord beliefs, and he killed him with a sword not a shout, he used the shout as a tool.

1. Do you see bad nords going to sovengarde? I think not.

Dominion: Please don't use gameplay as a levrege it is not fact.

Great War two: It's not the best strategy to spread your army thin when there is a good posibility of war.

Unity of Tamrial: They Acknoledge it's the only thing big another to the defend agaisnt the Dominion, currently, is the Empire, Oh but look there's some people who could help defeat the Domain let's go talk to them. 2. It's not just about Hammerfall but about the dummer themselves, it's a package agaisnt the Empire AND the Domain what a deal! Seriously why wouldnt they!

You do about the same thing I do, you read up on the topic, then come back talking, are you calling yourself a fool?