Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27157999-20160710144119/@comment-28135006-20180122023656

Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

LordOswin wrote: I'm gonna summarise this in case it doesn't send again, but feel free to ask questions and I'll go into more detail. Lol I kinda went into detail number 2 onwards, but this is my attempt at "summary"

1. Morrowind is barely inhabitable, and the red mountain is still erupting. They have not rebuilt enough to allow the refugees (considering the lifespan of elves, it's likely the ones in windhelm are the original settlers) to come back in bulk.

2. Exactly, Nirayne and the two who own the stables are high elves, who arguably should be the ones recieving the most criticism, as the great war was against the thalmor, not the dark elves. In-game dialogue suggests that even other dunmer are getting sick of people complaining and refusing to take jobs, and there is no racism in any of ulfric's lines, he even allows a family to own a farm and hire nord workers. The most "racist" thing he says in-game is "Blasted dark elves. I don't suppose you could tell them that I presently have larger concerns?". And I think this is reasonable, during times of conflict you don't really have time to think about the housing market. They should be "grateful" that they are not simply living on the streets like Silda the Unseen.

3. Banning something doesn't mean people stop doing it, just look at the "war on drugs" everywhere. Does making skooma illegal stop people dealing it and consuming it? No. The argonians carved their way up the country from the south, and it just so happens that house Dres and Hlaalu were right next to the border. And yes, look at riften with it's 3 argonians and 2 dark elves, isn't that such a large scale truimph? No, not really. Because the ebonheart pact crumbled with argonains and dunmer fighting eachother, do you not think that it would be a wise decision to keep them apart, just in case? The last thing you need in times of war is conflict in your own city. Even when the imperials win, the gates are not just flung open because Brunwulf (Who I admire greatly, by the way.) has enough sense to try and implement these changes slowly, which most likely would've ended up getting done anyway, once the war was over. Also, the dunmer have been pretty reluctant themselves to try and improve relations, even turning a blind eye to the murders.

4. Ulfric was captured by the thalmor, interrogated and tortured. If you've read the dossier, it officially states that Ulfric only "broke" after the imperial city had fallen, aka meaning the war is over. That is not desertion. "Torygg was merely a message to the other jarls" Ulfric says, as he wanted to show the other nords how weak they had become in comparison to the days before the empire, where they were able to commit genocide at a race arguably more advanced than the altmer. Torygg was willing to consider Ulfric's request out of respect for a war hero, but there is no telling that the civil war would've been prevented by these actions. And yes, it's in the oath because you're supposed to know what you're fighting for. By right of challenge, Ulfric technically holds claim to the throne, however the moot could elect the dragonborn because of their deeds, who knows. What I understand through the dialogue, the title is relatively meaningless to Ulfric even after winning, as the entire goal of the war was "independance" not "we need to build a wall" like people claim. He has no problem with foreigners that can be backed up by legitimate evidence.



Bonus:

I personally choose the stormcloaks not because of the Talos thing, or because Ulfric is an untouchable god (but really, if you look at the dialogue Tullius is the one disrespecting other cultures), but because of the alliances.

Stormcloak: Skyrim (weak), Hammerfell (strong), High Rock (Either weak or strong depending on how much they get invested)

Imperial: Cyrodiil (weak), Skyrim (weak), High Rock (either weak or non existant, as they've not cared before and have no love for the thalmor)

Thalmor: Alinor (strong), Valenwood (weak, may switch sides), Elsweyr (weak)

Stormcloaks have a much greater chance of winning against the thalmor, simply by military strategy even if the elves would have greater numbers. The imperials however, are quite likely to be crushed. 1. Barely? They have returned to Mournhold and are even rebuilding Vivec. It's safe to return there, they are no longer refugees, in fact, Morrowind would need those Dunmer back to rebuild at a faster rate.

2. Except that Ulfric is especially racist to Dunmer, not Altmer. He hates all elves, but Dunmer just a little bit more. There is absolutely no dialogue at all to suggest they aren't taking jobs, because all of them have jobs. They are complaining because of the mistreatment at Ulfric's hands. Racism is more than just saying things, it's doing things. Ulfric segregates people because of their race, and does not act when non-Nords are attacked. His guards don't even help the Dunmer because they are Dunmer, that's racism. They should not be grateful at all, if Ulfric can't do his duty as Jarl, he shouldn't be one.

3. You're comparing apples to oranges. Where as drugs and such can easily be hidden, slave plantations can't. And even then, the Dres and Hlaalu released all of their slaves, yet they were the ones to be invaded. It had nothing to do with slavery. Riften only has two Dunmer less than Windhelm, it is practically equal in terms of Dunmer and Argonian settlers. The Pact did not crumble with Argonians and Dunmer fighting each other, we don't even know how it ended. Brunwulf's reasoning for not allowing the Argonians in and giving the Dunmer free rights is a combination of Ulfric draining Windhelm's coffers, and the Nords of Windhelm sharing Ulfric's racist ideals, nothing to do with the pov between Dunmer and Argonian. The only reason the Dunmer show a blind eye to murder is because none of the Nords, excluding Brunwulf, care about them, and mistreat them.

Would you be surprised if a Jew in WW2 did not act against a murderer if only people of the SS were murdered?

4. Wrong, Ulfric broke when the Imperial City had fallen, on the Empire's side, 4E 173, two years before the Battle of the Red Ring. After that, he fled the Great War and established a militia, which he then used to conqeur Markarth before the Legions had even returned from the Great War. Ulfric says a lot, but he also says he desires the throne, and obviously, Torygg was in the way of that. The Civil War was also ongoing years before Ulfric challenged Torygg, it started in 176. An oath of loyalty does not include stating you think your ruler is the true High King, that's just Ulfric's lust for power. Ulfric holds no claim for the throne, as duels for the throne are not lethal, Ulfric killed Torygg, breaking tradition, making it murder. If his goal was independence, why does he keep hammering about wanting to be King? Why did he not ask Torygg to declare independence? Why invade neutral Whiterun? Ulfric's goal is not independence, Ulfric's goal is puting Ulfric on the throne.

Bonus:

Tullius disrespects Nordic culture that goes against him. Ulfric disrespects Nordic culture in general.

Stormcloak: Neither Hammerfell nor High Rock has any reason to ally with the Stormcloaks.

Imperial: Cyrodiil is strong, as practically every Legion is located there. Skyrim is stronger than under the Stormcloaks, and High Rock is unknown.

Thalmor: Alinor is strong, Valenwood is strong, and Elsweyr is strong. The latter two barely saw action in the Great War.

The Stormcloaks have no chance of winning at all. They can't even defeat the weakest Legion without outside intervention. No wait, scratch that, they are losing against the weakest Legion, even with outside intervention known as the Thalmor indirectly aiding them. The Stormcloaks have no strategy and are pathetic and weak, only bias would make you say differently. 1. I live in a country where big earthquakes happen quite often, and places get smashed up. When people leave, and then the rebuild starts, they don't come back to help because they still have nowhere to live.

2. Name one piece of dialogue that supports this claim. You're making a lot of assumptions about Ulfric's character with very little in-game evidence. If you're fighting a war, in your country and are trying to curry favour with a certain people, you protect them. If they've already said "nah fam you got this" then there is little reason for him to intervene because "you got this". Brunwulf wants to help the Dunmer, but even when he's jarl he can't do anything because of the people's suspicion and fears, yes. Don't you think that Ulfric has a similar reasoning rather than just pinning all the blame on him?

3. Not entirely true, as many of the Morrowind slaves were kept underground, not in a big paddock. And again, that matters little because they were geographically closest to the border. Also, I'd like to point out that many of the argonians working on the docks are theives and drug abusers, so the only one really being mistreated is Shavee. As for the dark elves, the one you see being bullied when you first enter the city is actually involved in a business with a the Shatter-Shields with pirates, one keeps drugs in his bar, and another sells stolen goods. They aren't as innocent as they seem. The failure of the Ebonheart pact began, lore-wise when the Nords accept Ysmir as the true heir to the ruby throne, but the dunmer (since they posess the heart of lorkhan already) do not think they need the living Mantler to tell them how to march. For the argonians, with the Imperials hot on the Dunmer's tail, they would need to bolster their forces with conscription, and by the second era were indeed taking argonian slaves again. The Argonians retreated, and the Morrowind houses went back into full fervor now that there's no more alliance.

And yes, I would expect someone on the other side to care, as it has happened before. Soldiers are still people, and I think this is evidenced in-game by Hadvar and Ralof, helping the player no matter what race, and the fact that you were a prisoner.

<p style="font-weight:400;">4. After the imperial city had fallen. Not when, after, as it says in the dossier. We don't have an exact year, only the year the reachmen took hold of Markarth, and held it for 2 years in 4E 174, so it's more likely Ulfric returned to skyrim around that time or later. On top of that, he was in no shape to continue fighting. The battle of the Red Ring was a last ditch effort to stop the empire crumbling completely, but it pretty much already had and was a waste of time, since the terms of the white-gold concordat were exactly the same as the beginning. That is not true, a challenge to the throne is a battle to the death, if the victor so chooses, while Torygg's death was unfair, it was not illegal. Also, in-game, not once does Ulfric ever say "I wanna be king", in fact, the closest thing he says is "We're fighting because Skyrim needs heroes, and there's no one but us". I do encourage you to read through the dialogue of both Tullius and Ulfric.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Bonus:

<p style="font-weight:400;">Oh, so racism is okay if they're on the other side? Noted. Tullius has actual dialogue evidence of disdain for nordic culture, but Ulfric has none for others.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Stormcloak: Actually, Hammerfell supports the idea of Skyrim being independant within the lore, it was only lazy coding that didn't have Redguard warriors in the stormcloak ranks (much like how the super diverse imperials are an all imperial male legion). High Rock has no love for the Thalmor regime either, and since their trade routes with Cyrodiil have now been cut off by the two independant nations surrounding it, it's likely to end up assisting them financially, or possibly joining the alliance. That means 1 strong Hammerfell, 1 weak Skyrim (because it's only just stopped warring with itself) and 1 weak/strong High Rock depending on how invested they get.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Imperial: Cyrodiil is not strong, it's still shattered after the great war. Many organisations such as the blades and the darkbrotherhood were completely wiped out, and are barely rebuilding themselves in Skyrim's day. Skyrim is not strong either, as it's only just gotten out of it's inner turmoil. Regardless of which side wins, it's about the same strength, which is about half it's full capacity. High Rock doesn't care about the empire, and has no love for the thalmor, so appart from trade it's very unlikely they would be interested. That makes 1 weak cyrodiil, 1 weak skyrim, and 1 weak to non existent High Rock.

<p style="font-weight:400;">Thalmor: Alinor is strong. It's having no internal conflicts at the moment. Valenwood is not strong, it's very unhappy with the Thalmor and it's purges, and Elsweyr is undergoing it's own civil war because the Thalmor assasinated the Maine. That makes 1 strong Alinor, 1 weak Valenwood, and 1 weak Elsweyr.

<p style="font-weight:400;">I think you are biased, as there is no inderect thalmor intervention. The Thalmor did not attempt to prevent Ulfric's execution, though it benefitted them. The thalmor are capturing stormcloak soldiers, and that is weakening the army because they're trying to hold the stalemate for as long as possible. They're indirectly aiding the imperials, actually. Keeping the numbers down just enough so that no one can properly advance. The Stormcloak rebellion began in one city, and as of the events of the main quest, holds 3 out of a possible 4. The empire holds 4 out of a possible 5 (because Whiterun is neutral). Please find me some evidence of Thalmor assistance, and I'd be happy to reconsider my judgement. I'm only going off the lore facts and in-game evidence.

<p style="font-weight:400;">I'd also like to remind you of the Stormcloak giant cut content, which was most likely removed to make the fight seem more even.