Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150811164409

Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote: Let’s do this bit by bit:

How would it been worse if he surrendered and prevented war? The outcome would have been the exact same, except the Imperial army would have been intact. Sure, people would question Titus' ability to rule, but it could have bought him time to prepare his defense better, as it would have taken some time before the treaty terms would be in full effect. As described, the Dominion didn’t have too much trouble breaching Cyrodiil's border and taking over city after city. The Empire's defense was too unprepared for war. Which is kind of weird, the Empire must had most of their troops in Cyrodiil since they no longer had Legions in the previous provinces. According to the book “The Great War” Titus Mede II would face a civil war but I think this would be the least of his problems. I don’t think the citizens of the Empire would “play nice” with the Thalmor until the Empire break the shackles and strike back.

That’s precisely the point! The Empire exists because of the other provinces. Without help from High Rock and Skyrim, the Empire would have fallen shortly after the war. The Legion doesn't even have enough resources on their own to quell the "the little" Stormcloak rebellion on their own and needs help from their allies in form of gold and additional men as soldiers. Tulles said to the player that most of the Legion are on the borders with the Dominion, that’s why the Emperor can’t send reinforcements to Skyrim or else Ulfric would face several Legions instead of one and of course he would lose. Ulfric himself admitted that his army is not strong enough to face a full scale war with the Empire.

Indeed. They angered the Nords(and they are rightfully angry) to wage war with the Empire. The Thalmor needed war, not necessarily division. That is why the war needed to end, with one side being victorious. But I'm glad you actually brought that up, since I hear that a lot from Empire supporters. Let me ask: why do people seem to think that Skyrim will be left to fend for themselves if the Stormcloaks take over? Do people really think Ulfric will just sit on his throne and roll his thumbs? After the civil war is over, the Stormcloaks mention that they will rebuild their armies and take it to the Dominion. If the Dominion sends their newly recovered army to attack the Empire, it will weaken the Dominions own defenses, perfect for the Stormcloak army to attack them. That is why I doubt the Dominion would launch an assault against the Empire, because it would leave them vulnerable for an attack from Skyrim(either Legionnaires or Stormcloaks) and maybe even Hammerfell. And let me ask, how Ulfric is going to wage war against the Dominion? Just as someone mentioned in another forum (I forgot his name) the Stormcloaks don’t have a navy, the Dominion do. The Stormcloaks don’t have mages, the Dominion do. The Stormcloaks don’t have a variety of soldiers, the Dominion do. The Stormcloak only have guard armor and steel weaponry while the Dominion have Elven and Glass gear as well as robes that enhance their magick. Could the Stormcloaks defend Skyrim alone against the Dominion? I don't know, lot of variables to consider. But if we're talking about the Stormcloaks attacking the Dominion? No. Tiber Septim himself needed a huge Dwemer automaton and several years to beat them.

When people say that the Stormcloaks live in the past and can't look forward, I can’t help but to crack up over the massive irony. Those who support the Empire often do so out of the belief that the Empire is still this powerful force that will restore peace and bring prosperity throughout Tamriel. Ever since the Septim dynasty ended, everything went downhill all the way to the Great War. The current Empire has crumbled, both their military and their leadership. The Stormcloaks realize that the Imperials are unfit to rule anyone except themselves and wants to move forward to what they see a "brighter future". Whether or not it really is a brighter future is anyone's guess. Considering how incompetently the Empire handled the previous provinces of Summerset Isles, Valenwood, Elsweyr, Morrowind and Black Marsh, I think Skyrim is better off handling their own politics. Sure, the Empire definitely isn’t what it is, especially if you compare Oblivion and Skyrim. We’ve got a Colovian Warlord family, the Titus Medes as Emperors, and the Empire is really becoming just Cyrodiil considering how the Thalmor are either taking over bits or making them leave the Empire. But that’s not a good reason why it isn’t still worth fighting to keep alive. Let’s admit that we’d all rather see the Empire in charge than the Aldmeri Dominion. Kicking the Empire out of Skyrim, hence removing yet another limb from the Empire, is only going to bring Tamriel one step closer to Imperial collapse and Thalmor victory.

Yeah, we know lots of Nords fought and died in the Great War, only to be betrayed by the Empire when they agreed to ban Talos worship. This is one of Ulfric’s favourite lines to use "I fight so all the fighting I’ve done so far isn’t for nothing." – But come on. Butting the Imperials out of Skyrim just so you can worship Talos again and get back at the Empire is dumb, and shortsighted. It’s a short-term victory with long-term costs. If the White-Gold Concordat was never signed, the Empire would be downright extinct and a full Thalmor victory would be much closer to reality. The Concordat kept the Empire alive to fight another day, rather than becoming another Thalmor vassal, just like the Bosmers and the Khajiits. Nords have to understand this and help the Empire bounce back, rather than be all self-righteous and sacrifice the hopes of everyone else in the process. After all, a weakened Empire leaves it much more succeptible to Thalmor victory – and if the Empire falls, even a Stormcloak Skyrim isn’t going to survive very well. It will be an independent state. And the Thalmor love independent states since it’s 1-on-1 rather than fighting an entire Empire. And to clarify, the Empire lost Summerset Isles, Valenwood and Elsweyr, as well as Hammerfell thanks to the Thalmor. And Skyrim will be the next of the list if the Stormcloaks win the war. I will say once more what is the Thalmor’s motto: Divide and Conquer.

1. Exactly. Had he signed the treaty before the Great War, it would still not last long enough. War could not be avoided, but it would buy time for better preparation. Or perhaps not. But regardless, going to war unprepared was still a foolish move. If he was planning for a false surrender at some point, I think he should have done it while he still had a fighting chance.

2. Yes, and that goes to show that the Imperials only has a little more than enough troops to defend their own country. Ulfric wouldn’t have a chance in hell if the Empire was still in its prime and had even more Legions stationed in Skyrim. That is one of the bigger signs that the Empire is unfit to rule any provinces, aside from poor leadership. How do you think the Empire would defend Skyrim from the Dominion if they fail to quell the Stormcloak rebellion? Worst possible scenario is that the Empire, when they have siphoned enough resources, might try to use Skyrim as cannon fodder to weaken the Dominions forces or abandon it entirely if Cyrodiil was under heavy pressure. The Mede Empire has quite a history of abandoning their provinces.

3. Well, don’t the Legionnaires use their version of guard armor and steel weapons too? I’m not quite sure what kind of point you are trying to make. In a battle between one Legionnaire vs one Thalmor Soldier, the outcome would have been pretty much the same in a battle with one Stormcloak Soldier vs one Thalmor Soldier. And the Imperial Legion only has a very few mages. Actually, only 2 were ever seen in the game and they ended up becoming dragon food. The rest of Tullius’ Legion (and all the other Legions) consists of regular infantry. Most regular Thalmor infantry wear Light Elven armor(strong as leather) and use steel(and Elven on a few occasions) weapons. Only certain types of soldiers use higher quality armor and weapons. I doubt the Dominion has that much moonstone, quicksilver and malachite to make such weapons and armor for ALL their soldiers. You are right about Skyrim not having a decent navy though. I guess all this time they have been dependent on the Empire for that. But just because they don’t have a navy now doesn’t mean they will never have. I think it could be a part of the Stormcloaks plan to “rebuild” Skyrim; build more warships. Or maybe purchasing some from other locations. I guess it would be strange if the Stormcloaks want to take their armies to the Dominion and yet doesn’t have the means to do it. Only time will tell how they will manage that. Also, you are confusing the Third Aldmeri Dominon with the Second. If the Third was indeed as powerful as the Second, they would have conquered the Empire during the Great War.

4. The Aldmeri Dominion is technically already in charge. It is their laws the Empire enforces. And so what if the Empire falls? The provinces won’t cease to exist because of it. Cyrodiil, High Rock, Skyrim and Hammerfell won’t go under just because they aren’t united. And the thing is that even if the provinces are split up, they are still untied through their common enemy; the Aldmeri Dominion. By leaving the Empire they can’t shove their laws in the Nords faces or extort them on their wealth. The other provinces can still bounce back on their own, even if the Imperials might fall. I personally don’t believe in an Aldmeri victory just because the Empire ceases to exist. On the contrary, when an old and withered Empire dies, a younger and stronger one may be born. Also, the Aldmeri soldiers(as seen in game) doesn’t have Bosmer and Khajiit among their ranks. They use the Khajiit mostly as assassins, but not as infantry. Considering their motto “mer over men”, I don’t think they would allow Khajiit in their armies. And no, the Thalmor doesn’t necessarily like independence either. Read the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak. A victory (Imperial or Stormcloak) would hurt their overall position. And just because a country is independent doesn’t mean that the Thalmor will swoop in and take over it. If that was the case, why haven’t they done so with Hammerfell? Or provinces like Black Marsh or Morrowind? Like I said in the previous post, if the Dominion would send their armies to conquer lands it would leave them vulnerable for enemy assaults in return. It will not be 1 – 1, as you describe it. The Empire and Hammerfell would see to it, united or not.

Also, they did lose Black Marsh and Morrowind too. Not to the Dominion, but the Empire supposedly “released their grasp” of the provinces (in other words they abandoned them because they lost influence and authority) after the Oblivion Crisis.