Board Thread:General Discussion/@comment-27157999-20160710144119/@comment-28135006-20180124002806

Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

LordOswin wrote: 1. This may be fantasy, but Elder Scrolls does aim for realism. Ash is a problem on solstheim, so it would obviously be a big problem on the mainland too. Also, Silt Striders are extinct, as far as we know so travel around Morrowind would be limited greatly.

2. No no, I asked for a dialogue piece from Ulfric himself. Though, it is amusing that the first person on that list is literally harassing people like a feminist yelling "WE'RE OPPRESSED CAN'T YOU FEEL THE OPPRESSION WE ARE VICTIMS". Even the other dark elves and an argonian (though this conversation was cut because of the ban) are getting sick of his shit.

I'd also like to point out that because there were scripted conversations between dunmer and saxhleel, as well as the bloodworks being cut from windhelm, the ban of argonians entering the city was not planned, and added later on to account for technical difficulties, or simply running out of time. It's explainable within the lore on Ulfric's page, but also more likely to be an issue within development, which would explain why they recorded lines for interaction. So racism or game limitations? I will agree that the dark elf situation is entirey on him, though.

3. The argonians did not raid by sea, as far as I'm aware. Just because they did release their slaves at that time, we know in the second era they did start taking them again. The geographical positions meant they were an easy target, it's that simple. And yet she agreed to do it, if she didn't want the job she could've resigned, simple as that. They are not immune to scrutiny, or stereotyping. One bad apple spoils the bunch, it's the same in real life. If your neighnbour's son stole your TV, would you still trust the entire family? There are always doubts, and the city of Windhelm just so happens to have acted on these doubts. Just look at the Khajiit, banned from every city equally because of their poor reputations.

I was actually referencing real events from world war 2, where jews and hebrews saved germans, and vice versa. Just because you would be bitter (and stereotyping) does not mean everyone can and will.

4. Yes, this is before the battle of the Red Ring. However, since the Reachmen were there for such a long time without any resistance, it does not make sense that Ulfric would wait so long to retaliate, if he is so influential. Ulfric's challenge was in the "old nord way" so there is no way to confirm or deny that Torygg's death was guaranteed, though even Torygg himself knew that the fight would be lethal and accepted this. Yes, he does use the word high king in a few sentences, however there is more evidence to suggest that his quest for the throne is not for personal gain, as he does not claim the Windhelm throne is his, he claims it as his father's and Ysgramor's and hopes he can "live up to" their legacies.

It was not him who suggested that Whiterun's neutrality was an act of disrespect, but Galmar's saying "If he's not with us, he's against us".

Bonus:

Yes, there are redguards on both sides, just like the nords. However, it's difficult to discern races from the foot soldiers, as bretons and imperials share similar facial features and hairstyles, while imperials are also able to be as dark as redguards in skin tone. I suppose it's which kind of equality you value more, supposed racial equality, or gender equality. Nords are based off actual vikings who respected women just as much as men, while Imperials are based off the romans, who did not. I'd also like to point out that Hammerfell is an independant country, who was traded off by the empire as part of a treaty, and then freed itself with a revolution similar to the stormcloaks, except the empire did not intervene. They are infinitely more likely to join Ulfric's cause than oppose it like you suggest.

I think you've misunderstood my point about High Rock. High Rock does not interfere with Skyrim's civil war. It does not like the Thalmor regime has a strong presence in High Rock, but because of the adamantine tower, they would still be there. It isn't too fond of the Redguards, however it is even less fond of the Thalmor regime, and since Skyrim's independance would cut off all trade with Cyrodiil, an alliance would be it's best chance of cultural survival. Basically like an ebonheart pact 2.0 except with humans who hate eachother.

No, it's not, but it represents the overall state of the empire. If all of the normally functioning guilds are still scrambling to get together, how do you expect in 20 years a country that was decimated by war for years will rebuild itself to peak condition? Yes, the imperials could crush the stormcloaks, if they open their borders which is an illogical move, and as Tullius says, the empire is ''stretched thin. ''Simply having the numbers doesn't mean you can use them, so they're pretty much useless in the context of the civil war. Yes, Skyrim is shitty at the moment I'm not denying this, and never did. Cyrodiil is also weak at the moment, but I did not say "weaker than", just "not at full strength". The empire may be wiser, but it's nowhere near the level it was during the great war, and can't handle another one.

Indirect aid to both sides actually. All those "talos worshippers" are named as Stormcloak soldier in-game, so they are taking people who've already joined to anger their families into joining, which is simultaneously reducing and increasing numbers to keep in a pattern with the rate of people joining and deserting the legion. The dialogue where the guy talks about his cousin, is a rumor. "Some say the thalmor grabbed him". This is not proven true or false anywhere. It keeps the stalemate fresh, giving the illusion that the war is still in full motion.

Bethesda decides what is lore friendly, meaning whatever they want to put in the games is acceptable. Take the Khajiit race, at first they were the Ohmes, an elf-like race. In Daggerfall, they were changed to the Ohmes-raht, the neko people. In Morrowind, they were changed again to the Suthay, a proper anthropomorphic species, because bethesda wanted to. In Oblivion and Skyrim, they became the Suthay-raht, simply the suthay but with more mannish legs and the ability to wear boots. Whatever is put into the game becomes canon, and the lore serves to cushion the blow. The giants, while cut are technically still potential canon, as they may be mentioned in the lore later on. It is God Howard's choice, not ours. 1. Ash is not a problem, the Dunmer have been dealing with ash storms from Red Mountain years even before the Red Year, they know how to live in it. Silt Striders only appeared on Vvardenfell, so no, travel in Morrowind would not be limited greatly.

2. Deeds show more than words... when a white person doesn't say anything racist, yet keeps a bunch of black people as slaves, does that not show he is racist? We can clearly see the opression of the Dunmer by merely walking around Windhelm. You're acting as if they are spreading lies, but the big question is: Why would they? Why would they lie that things got worse only after Ulfric got in charge, if they always just wanted benefits?

Of course the decree is entirely to blame on Ulfric. They added in the evidence of Ulfric forcing the Argonians out because that's what he did.

3. They didn't, no. But if they wanted to "rescue the enslaved Argonians", they would have. They clearly did not care about "slaves", because slavery had been banned in Morrowind. Also, "Second Era", they banned slavery in the "Third Era", never to allow it again.

Of course she agreed to do it, with all the prejudice she already has on her plate, she doesn't need any more from Nords saying "See, even when we give her work, she refuses to do it!". Windhelm is not acting on any "doubts", Ulfric is acting on his racist mindset.

Also, no, it's not "The Khajiit are banned from the city", but the Khajiit caravans, and for good reason, because they deal in Skooma.

Keyword: Germans, not members of the Waffen SS or Wehrmacht, who were actively trying to hunt them down.

4. Ulfric needed time to build an army. He wasn't a Jarl, so he had no real justified reason to create one in the first place, and most of the Nords were with the Legion, so of course Ulfric needed time to create an army capable of retaking the city.

And the "old nord way" is, by tradition, not fatal. Look at the previous duels, none resulted in death between people fighting for a throne.

Windhelm is not the seat of the High King, Solitude is. Ulfric only cares for the position of High King, he has proven it with his own words, which you choose to ignore because of a reason.

And Ulfric responds with: "He knows that, they all know that." He shares Galmar's point of view.

Bonus:

One Redguard said to be on the Stormcloaks' side does not mean "Redguards on both sides", we only see Redguards with the Imperials, not the Stormcloaks. Also, no, the Empire has both racial and sexual equality, hence why you can find female Legionnaires, though mainly dead ones. Also, the Empire is not sexist at all, play Morrowind before making these insane and unfounded claims.

Hammerfell did not "free itself" with any kind of revolution, especially not against the Empire.

Yes, and neither does Cyrodiil intervene with the civil war in Skyrim, does that mean that Cyrodiil is not loyal to the Empire? Also, the Adamantine Tower doesn't have any relation with the Thalmor.

Please, do tell me more about the records of the Fighters Guild and Synod+College of Whispers doing badly.... oh, what's that? You can't? Well, then your argument is unfounded, isn't it? The Imperials are already massacring the Stormcloaks, and pushing them back. Hell, had Alduin appeared an hour later, Ulfric would have lost his head and the war would have been over.

No, not indirect aid to both sides, just the Stormcloaks. And no, those Talos worshippers are called "Thalmor Prisoner", not "Stormcloak Soldier". Also, yes, it's a rumor, but a good enough one for him to join up with the Stormcloaks, and that's what the Thalmor ultimately care about.

Bethesda decides what is lore friendly, and that's why they removed giants from the Stormcloaks' side, along with various other "Stormcloaks", because it's simply lore breaking and they realised that. Giants joining the Stormcloaks is not lore, it was removed for a reason. Alright, since you keep ignoring my points, I'm going to assume this has transcended from peaceful debate to actively trying to destroy me because I'm an "eevil racist". I've tried to be as calm and respectful as I can, but I'm not getting that same vibe from your replies, even if it was intended.

All in all, both sides do have some hint of a chance at winning against the Thalmor, but from my perspective it looks like the empire is not doing as good as the other side. Until we get an ES6 and or a dragon break, it's all up in the air over who's strongest, what's lore friendly and so on.

Have fun with your dead emperor, and I look forward to re-evaluating my stance when a new chapter of lore is released. In the mean time, I think this debate has taken up too much of the thread, and it appears to be a stalemate that won't move any time soon. Good day.