Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26356342-20150811183851

S ' Dalaar the Snowcat wrote:1. Exactly. Had he signed the treaty before the Great War, it would still not last long enough. War could not be avoided, but it would buy time for better preparation. Or perhaps not. But regardless, going to war unprepared was still a foolish move. If he was planning for a false surrender at some point, I think he should have done it while he still had a fighting chance. I like you snowcat, you can have an actual dialog. I'd like to respond to some of this if Shigeru doesnt mind. ANY leader who accepts surrender under threat of war, is no leader. That's not just with the Empire, when Ulfric challeneged the High King, Torygg didnt stand down just so he could live. He probably knew he stood no chance against a verteran like Ulfric, shout or no shout. Thats just part of the burden of leadership, so I don't feel you can really hold THAT against the Emperor, theres lots others you could hold against him, but choosing to fight over having the entire empire appear weak and open to threats should not be one of them. Lets also not forget the "gift" that was left for him, the heads of all the blades. Had he agreed to the terms and THEN been presented with the heads, war most likely would have broken out anyways. (probably numerous civil wars)

2. Yes, and that goes to show that the Imperials only has a little more than enough troops to defend their own country. Ulfric wouldn’t have a chance in hell if the Empire was still in its prime and had even more Legions stationed in Skyrim. That is one of the bigger signs that the Empire is unfit to rule any provinces, aside from poor leadership. How do you think the Empire would defend Skyrim from the Dominion if they fail to quell the Stormcloak rebellion? Worst possible scenario is that the Empire, when they have siphoned enough resources, might try to use Skyrim as cannon fodder to weaken the Dominions forces or abandon it entirely if Cyrodiil was under heavy pressure. The Mede Empire has quite a history of abandoning their provinces.

Well typically, you don't send all of your own troops to solve the problems of your allies. You send small forces, which it did in the case of the civil war. But here is where we somewhat find some common ground. Why WOULD the Empire defend Skyrim if they lose it in the civil war? They just lost an entire legion to a bunch of Nords yelling about how they want to kill imperials, the wounds would be too fresh to ask them to set aside their differences. Within the worst case scenario if Cyrodiil falls you have the dominion on Skyrim's doorstep, in one of the best possible bottleneck positions. That puts them within grasp of Riften and once they have that, its a stone's throw away from Windhelm. I Also don't think they could use Skyrim as cannon fodder, as a place to retreat back to, yes, but they wouldn't willingly lead them into skyrim if they didnt have too, thats way too deep into the mainland to allow them.

3. Well, don’t the Legionnaires use their version of guard armor and steel weapons too?

I honestly don't have any comment on the armor portion here, you pretty much cover how they're both, more or less even. I will say, at least, that without a navy it could become a problem for Skyrim (since I believe High Rock represents the bulk of the Imperial Navy) if they were to lose Riften, Windhelm, and Solitude, they're completely cut off from supplies. and, although unlikely, the Dominion could just desguise one of their ships as an east empire company ship, dock in one of the major cities and BAM you've got an infestation of dominion and a harbor that's been cut off. I always assumed their plan was to sort of sit and wait for the dominion to come to them, which is weird since they do mention "taking the fight" to the dominion.

4. The Aldmeri Dominion is technically already in charge. It is their laws the Empire enforces. And so what if the Empire falls? The provinces won’t cease to exist because of it. Cyrodiil, High Rock, Skyrim and Hammerfell won’t go under just because they aren’t united. And the thing is that even if the provinces are split up, they are still untied through their common enemy; the Aldmeri Dominion. By leaving the Empire they can’t shove their laws in the Nords faces or extort them on their wealth. The other provinces can still bounce back on their own, even if the Imperials might fall. I personally don’t believe in an Aldmeri victory just because the Empire ceases to exist. On the contrary, when an old and withered Empire dies, a younger and stronger one may be born. Also, the Aldmeri soldiers(as seen in game) doesn’t have Bosmer and Khajiit among their ranks. They use the Khajiit mostly as assassins, but not as infantry. Considering their motto “mer over men”, I don’t think they would allow Khajiit in their armies. And no, the Thalmor doesn’t necessarily like independence either. Read the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric Stormcloak. A victory (Imperial or Stormcloak) would hurt their overall position. And just because a country is independent doesn’t mean that the Thalmor will swoop in and take over it. If that was the case, why haven’t they done so with Hammerfell? Or provinces like Black Marsh or Morrowind? Like I said in the previous post, if the Dominion would send their armies to conquer lands it would leave them vulnerable for enemy assaults in return. It will not be 1 – 1, as you describe it. The Empire and Hammerfell would see to it, united or not.

Well there's really only 1 law they're enforcing, and that's the Talos ban. I know your question "so what if the empire falls" was directed to shigeru, but I'll answer the same, It's not really about reuniting ALL of tamriel again, or at least not for me. I personally would prefer if the Empire JUST focused on running Cyrodiil, but this is just a really bad time for it. The lore suggests that with or without Skyrim the Empire is the ones who will be fighting the Dominion. If they fall, Skyrim is where they're going to next. Skyrim if it wins the civil war is filled with ex legionaires, farmers and miners who took up the sword, it's not a trained army that could withstand a full invasion, I use the example of Ulfric mentioning he couldn't handle a full invasion from the Empire, so how would he handle one from the dominion? He had trouble with a single legion, this is a full invasion. If Skyrim were to then fall, they have a much better position to take on either Hammerfell or High Rock, but that's getting too far ahead. The short of it is, if the Empire falls, Skyrim is going to have the business end of an invasion on its hands, with nothing but ex soldiers and commoners to defend it. (Side note, anyone else think it'd be cool if the college of whispers got a bunch of Necromancers to take control of the ebony axe wielding draugr, and have an undead army fight the dominion?)

To the point of " just because a country is independent doesn’t mean that the Thalmor will swoop in and take over it." is true but it's not about gaining land to own its about positioning to strike. If Skyrim becomes independent, killing imperials to gain independence, Ulfric (or whoever is in charge) wont just allow more Imperials back into skyrim to help, and would be less likely to offer their help, even IF they both hate the Dominion. The Nords or prideful.. its an important character distinction. Cutting off Skyrim also means cutting off supply lines, not entirely, but still... enough where it could make a difference. If you just won your independence do you really want to have your borders open to anyone claiming to be a merchant? it'll slow everything down. The dominion at present doesn't have to worry about leaving their own borders unguarded. Who's going to come and try and claim them? Hammerfell? leaving themselves open to attack? who's going to risk leaving the safety of fortification to go into open waters (which could also mean they'd be gone for months at a time in order to sail there) just to TRY and take on the summerset isles?

Also, they did lose Black Marsh and Morrowind too. Not to the Dominion, but the Empire supposedly “released their grasp” of the provinces (in other words they abandoned them because they lost influence and authority) after the Oblivion Crisis.

True but they were lost more do to blackmarsh taking advantage of Morrowind's weakened state, in order to claim revenge, all while the Empire was tied up with the dominion. There was no way to attempt to parlay a truce between the two and with the empire already having little sway in morrowind it was easier to "let them go" Which brings us back to our common ground, I think The Empire should really focus on just Cyrodiil, and not all these other nations, but to get to that point, the Empire needs Skyrim.