Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26356342-20150917192133

S&#039;Dalaar the Snowcat wrote: I thought about this too. In the case with the dark elves plight, Ulfric ignores them because he is busy with the war and the overall politics of Skyrim. Which I’d say is pretty fair. Ulfric has his hands full and the dark elves aren’t in any dire need of help.

You make a good arugment here. I'll go back on record to say I don't FULLY believe Ulfric is racist, however I do understand where the rumors come from. He is busy with the War, however it is rather bad that so much is going on in his own hold he can't seem to control, or find someone to gain control of. The drunk who gathers people to hassle the dunmer, all those murders by the butcher, argonian mistreatment etc etc etc.

why can’t Brunwulf, when he becomes jarl, just revoke the law once Ulfric is dead?

He does tho, or at the very least he mentions he plans to. His dialog only suggest that people who have been living under Ulfric for so long (even if its not his decree, he's been enforcing it) developed a hatred for the Argonians. It'd be unsafe to just open the gates and tell everyone to "deal with it" there would be riots. Even if Ulfric himself isn't racist, those Nords living in Windhelm are, and to have anew Jarl show up and enforce tolerance on people who didn't need it before can cause problems.

All this speaks volumes in my opinion, on Ulfric's Rule... again... even if he himself isnt racist, he seems content with allowing racism, and such within his own city. If he can't run his own city properly how does he run a country? At least Brunwulf is trying to reach out to both the dunmer and the argonians to work out something. That's more than Ulfric ever did. And if it's all really because of the War going on, He should have had someone else covering for him. Balgruuf is able to fight off Dragons, capture Dragons, fight in a war, and STILL run his hold. I understand Ulfric is the head of this war, but his own city is going to shit while he's busy ignoring it all.

I don’t really see that as an argument. There are many Nords who are Great War veterans, who suffered grievously, but still support the Empire even after the signing of the WGC.

And many Nords who joined Ulfric for the same reasons. What reason do you suggest mad ehim anti-empire? He's CLEARLY anti-empire, so saying he's not isnt an argument. He mentions the Empire "betraying" skyrim a lot so I'd say it's safe to say he himself felt betrayed and that lead him to be anti-empire. Also, WHY did Ulfric even have a militia to begin with? If he wasnt planning on overthrowing the government, what was he doing building an armed force? it's all rather suspect.

To the point about the Empire just allowing it to sort itself out, that isnt really how they operate. Ideally, Yes, you do want them to sort things out themselves, but it wasnt as if the Empire official stance on the matter was "let them deal with it". They didn't have the men to send at that time, most of their forces were held up at the borders right after the war. Why not blame the other Jarls for also not assisting?

Very well, if you say so. I must admit, I didn’t realize the Imperials has such massive influence in Skyrim, even though the difference of the people who live here.

Well for places such as Hammerfell I believe they had more of an alliance-like situation, but Skyrim has been apart of the Empire since the late second Era/early third. Their agreement was more "ownership of the land" which brings me to a different point I'll bring up later on...

Thing there is that Ulfric didn’t really time the Markarth Incident. It was the Jarl who sought Ulfric for help to reclaim the Reach.

c'mon now, The war was fought, the treaty was signed, 1 year later Ulfric has a militia force within Skyrim? a force that could only be convinced to fight if the WGC was completely ignored? I'm not suggesting he had anything to do with the specific timing of the markarth incident (he obviously didnt know before hand the reachmen would attack) but he definitely had some sort of plan in the works.

Um, the peace council was about Skyrim politics. The whole Civil War IS about Skyrim politics. But I can agree with you that the Thalmor had a special right in this case. But the reason why I believe that the Empire will fold itself over a threat is due to their timid approach to the Thalmor, as we see in the game. Not only are they afraid that they will make a ruckus if Tullius don’t attend a Thalmor party, there is also the situation with Thorald Gray-Mane.

The dialog you're referring to with Tullius is cut, but I will entertain the idea for a moment. Let's take a step back for a moment tho. The Thalmor do like to pressure the Empire, it is known, however, just because Tullius and some nobles can be convinced to attend a party to play nice doesnt mean this is how the entire empire does business. The Thalmor just like to "poke the bear". Tullius was sent to Skyrim and charged with regaining the region. The WGC enables the Thalmor to also be there to enforce the treaty. So if Tullius suddenly started to blow off the Thalmor, it would cause problems for his superiors, and possibly cause him to be replaced within the region. The Thalmor's ultimate threat is the threat of an early war, but it's not as if they're specifically saying "come to our party or we invade" and the Empire is saying "please don't hurt us" its more subtle than that. It's more like someone speaks to a superior of Tullius and suggests that because a higher member of the military force isnt listening that perhaps it means they plan to break their treaty, the Empire responds by saying they have no interest in break the treaty, and to prove their word, have to remove Tullius from the situation. It's just easier to attend the stupid party, grin and bare it for now. Sometimes ou just have to do things you dont want to for the greater good. Its not as if Tullius saying "no" means they go to war, but saying "no" means tensions could rise, troops appear at the border as a threat, etc etc and on it goes, it's a big headache for everyone. Tullius' job is to follow orders, and the order right now is to play nice. That being said it still doesnt prove that the empire would do literally anything (including fighting battles for the thalmor) just to satisfy them.

"Over a single prisoner?" yes, and especially that particular prisoner. If the Thalmor have taken him it most likely means it's Talos related or that that's what they want you to believe, either way, The Empire asking to return an enemy the Thalmor have taken would cause too much trouble for no real reward. The grey-manes aren't big fans of the Empire, or the Thalmor, why would they want to cause an upset by asking for a prisoner to be released who would most likely just go join the stormcloaks anyways? Asking for a prisoner is a mch bigger deal then you may realize. It's technically taking "justice" away from them, and if they were to claim he was taken because of the Talos ban and the Empire still tried to get him freed, it could, again, be seen as breaking their treaty.

Ok, I will try to explain again. By leaving Hammerfell out of the Empire, they had no obligations to enforce the treaty.

I get your point about Hammerfell and Skyrim being different scenarios, but what you're suggesting is that the Thalmor would use the treaty to force the Empire to fight and kill for them. It doesnt give them that right. What I was suggesting is based on the logic that they could in fact use the treaty as leverage to force the Empire to fight their enemies, they would have done so with Hammerfell the minute it stopped being a part of the Empire. Without the Alliance of the Empire it would make Hammerfell free and independent, leaving the Dominion to say "good, now that you're not friends, attack them" but they didnt do that because they can't. The WGC can only be enforced within Imperial lands yes, but the WGC doesnt say "fight our enemies for us" it's just a peace treaty, like I said. It's not some alliance between the two. Also The Empire didnt let go of Hammerfell to save it from the WGC, it let go because Hammerfell refused to stop fighting, and being apart of the Empire meant by extension the Empire wasnt stopping the fight after just signing a peace treaty. They let go of Hammerfell for that the WGC didn't bind Hammerfell to the Empire in order to comply and maintain peace. It wasnt some grand gesture to Save Hammerfell, it was to save their own skin.

I suppose you are right there, but even if its not the Empires goal, the Thalmor will still do their thing while all they can do is just stand and watch.

True, as long as it complys with the WGC. The Thalmor will try very hard as often as they can to push the limits of what those terms are, but they are bound by those terms, for now. And that's the big issue, this is all "for now". We KNOW the Empire is going to fight the Dominion again, with or without Skyrim, it's happening. That fight will ultimately effect Skyrim in some capacity, and to quote Spock, "The Lives of the Many, outweigh the lives of the few" If a few people have to be taken in the night, or captured and tortured, it's horrible yes, but to fight blindly and lose countless lives fighting unprepared is reckless.

In the current situation, we have 2 possible provinces (Skyrim and Hammerfell), who could possibly invade the Dominion of 3 provinces.

Not only would it be bad odds, they'd get flanked hard and lose huge amounts of soldiers. Even with assuming they were able to work together. If they go south-east through Cyrodiil, they meet forces from Valenwood and Elsweyr, in from the west comes the Summerset Isles. It'd also be super easy to trick them into going too deep into either Valenwood or Elsweyr and then surround them. If they went directly for Summerset, not only do they need enough ships to sail there (and keep sailing there for restocking supplies) it leaves them open to attack on open water. Once there theres no retreating, and leaves them open to attack from any direction, since valenwood and elsweyr could get ships to any port they needed in summerset. The Forces from Hammerfell and Skyrim fight at their best on their own home turf, but the problem there is once the Dominion gets that far, it's too late.

Aside from expanding their food production, they can still trade with the EEC. And possibly still with High Rock, as I mentioned in my theory before.

I've recently read an article where someone decided to make a sandwich from scratch, and it takes him 6 months in order to get all the ingredients necessary. A single sandwich. Expanding food production isn't as easy as just planting more crops. You have to own the land to expand, that land has to be fertile, which in Skyrim is a bit hard to find. Even Rorikstead *may* have had to use magic in order to get the crops to even grow. You can't just go out and hunt animals all you want either, thats why every hunter in the game will say "the Jarl can't very well eat every animal here" because what they're doing is technically poaching. On top of all the crisis Skyrim has faced, there wouldnt be enough time to decree everyone start producing MORE in order to support their own war efforts and waning economy with the loss of the Empire.

The deal with the Empire is Trade for warriors. The Emperor himself funds the EETC, if Skyrim isnt part of the Empire, prices for trade goods goes up. It wouldn't just be "yeah, we will continue our business as usual" it'll be "Now you're a foreign power, we are going to have to tax you" and since the EETC has no competitors, they'll charge whatever they want. Since the Emperor is the main benefactor to the EETC, all that extra gold rolls back to the Empire to fund THEIR war efforts. Skyrim has its entire economy tied to the Empire for centuries, losing them isn't going to be an easy transition even under the best of conditions, but Skyrim also had the Civil war, Dragon attacks, Vampire crisis, etc etc it is the worst possible time for them to lose their entire economy, especially when theres still clean-up to do, and supposedly another war to go and fight. But again... during this time of transition and rebuilding, the Dominion continues to grow with minimal hindrance.

Also I wasnt suggesting they'd HAVE to give it away but it is a possibility. You said they'd pay their workers, with what gold? Most of the gold belongs to the Empire and that disappears when they do. (Like I said the Empire is their economy) But what happens when they need supplies and weapons? Taxes go up, when taxes rise, the poor get more poor. A Jarl can only pay for so much out of his own pocket to assist a war effort, and if its the Jarls Ulfric picks, It would not surprise me in the least to hear someone like Skald stopped paying the miners, or tell whoever owns the Mine they are now "gifting" the metal to Ulfric for the greater good. so all gold and ore can go directly to fund the stormcloak army.

I'll end here with this quote from Brunwulf, since we're discussing him already:  "I've taken the first steps toward doing so already. I met with several of the Dark Elves to discuss improvements in the Gray Quarter, but we have no real plans as of yet. First we'll need to refill our coffers and stockpile stone and wood. The war took a heavy toll on Windhelm's resources."  Windhelm doesnt currently have the resources to repair its own town.... how do they fair when they lose the Empire as a base of economy?

If there are little or no reinforcements in the other provinces, then the Dominion can do a lot more damage than you think. And I am not talking about small Dominion raid forces. I mean that the Dominion takes their entire assault force that was meant for the Second Great War and gears it towards Skyrim and High Rock, instead of Cyrodiil, which will be their strongest point.

But the problem is, to get to the places that are not well equip and guarded they risk too much to attempt to get there. They have no way of knowing for certain the numbers are small enough to be taken easily, they made that mistake before during the first great war, they wont make it again. the surprise attack attack isn't going to be as effective this time around as it was before. Everyone is on high alert for Dominion forces. It'd be much easier to attack from the fortified position they already have.

Now, now, it is a bit more than just a game. The developers has made clear points in why they did what they did. They gave Brunwulf dialogues explaining the situation. And you know that not all Dunmer live in the Gray Quarter? One of them even owns his own preperty. And as Dragonborn, either Dunmer or Argonian, you can still buy your own property. More Dunmer could probably live anywhere, if only they had the funds.

Game mechanics do come in when concerning the Dragonborn. If an Argonian Dragonborn wasnt allowed to enter the city, you'd never be able to join the Stormcloaks, and we wouldnt be having this discussion at all because everyone would just side with the Empire, since the Stormcloaks would look so obviously racist. I find it a bit funny people always mention the 1 dunmer who owns property and use him as the example.... He is 1 dunmer, or the 8 or 9 in the city, good for the 1 who made it out of the ghetto, but it doesnt prove they all get better lives. They're refugees, stranded there from the War going on in Morrowind. The War where everyone like to blame the Empire for not doing more to help... where the High King of Skyrim gifted the Island of Solstheim as a gesture of good faith, and Ulfric has "matched" that enthusiasm by allowing them to take shelter in the worst part of his town, pay him taxes, and renamed to something near derogatory. I'm not suggesting Ulfric should give the refugees more, but theres certainly more he could do for them, starting with maybe not letting the drunk racist hassle them nightly. Brunwulf does open up a dialog with them to improve their living situation. altho they are refugees, they are also working within the city, living within the city, paying his taxes, they deserve to be treated like the others within the city who do the same.

On another note, I find Brunwulfs dialogues very... shifty. First he can say: "Too many Nords in this town have been listening to Ulfric's narrow-minded words." At the same time he can be heard saying: "Don't let Ulfric or some of these other short-sighted Nords bother you. Most of us are happy to welcome newcomers." I find it weird that he first his accuses most of the residents of being narrow-minded and then he says that most are more tolerant. And when he becomes Jarl when will fall back to his previous statement: "Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted."

I think you may be confusing the 2 things he says to mean the same people. His first statement "Too many Nords in this town have been listening to Ulfric's narrow-minded words." He's specifying the town of Windhelm, and kinda generalizing the Stormcloaks. His second statement "Don't let Ulfric or some of these other short-sighted Nords bother you. Most of us are happy to welcome newcomers." the "US" he's referring to isnt Windhelm, he means Nords in general. Basically he feels Ulfric is making all Nords appear racist, and he's trying to be a nice person by telling you not all nords act that way. It's like when people say "Don't hate all High Elves just because you hate the Thalmor." His final statement,  "Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted." he's telling you that because of how Ulfric worded his speeches, theres a deep seeded bigotry/prejudice within the townsfolk, and THAT makes it harder for him to make changes such as opening the gates for the Argonians, it could cause riots.

And then there is that one line of dialogue that sounds so extreme, it sounds fake: "If Ulfric had his way, anyone who wasn't a Nord would be shipped right out of Skyrim." I dunno, I feel as that Brunwulf is regurgitating the same rhetoric Argonains and Dunmer spread about Ulfric. I don't think he is a bad man, he probably means well, but he has opened his mind too much to the point where he becomes naive and easily manipulated. That is why I, to a small extent, support Ulfric over Brunwulf (yes, I await all the hate in the world for saying that ;) )

True he might be just regurgitation the same speech, but as they say, "where theres smoke, theres fire" Even if he's being bias here and over exaggerating a bit, it's hard to deny the people of windhelm do not like elves, or non-nords for that matter... The drunk who is able to round up several people to hassle elves, the dialog options we get to ask the high elf merchant "is it tough being an elf in windhelm" the lack of non-nords within the Stormcloak ranks, all the "true sons and daughters of skyrim" talk. All of this happens primarily within Ulfric's City, and tho we dont have access to hear any of Ulfric's speeches, whatever it is he's saying most people take to mean he doesnt like non-nords. The Jarl reflects their people. Look at Riften, Maven runs riften, with or without the title of Jarl, and the place is a theives den, filled with corruption. Balgruuf is an honorable and respectable man, White run is filled with nords who hold honor dear, such as the companions. So AGAIN if Ulfric isn't racist, whatever he's doing and saying, is making his people appear racist, and his lack of action to change that mind-set cements it. It'sa little ironic people who support Ulfric usually do so because of religious freedoms, but hate the Jarl who replaces him who is actively trying to care for the people within the city who are suffering the most. I'm all for careing about the needs of the Nords, but the Nords aren't the only ones who live in Skyrim, and the Empire is all about integrating all the cultures together.

Bronkiin wrote: In many ways,  Brunwulf is more narrow-minded, only seeing things in black and white.

to quote Brunwulf myself:  "I just wish things were simpler. In my days as a soldier, I knew who the enemy was, and how to defeat him. Unfortunately, a sword can't repair damaged buildings, feed hungry people or undo years of prejudice." That doesnt sound like someone who is narrow-minded to me.

asking Aval Atheron, a Dunmer merchant, so he's contributing to the city, he's obviously not just a refugee asking for hand-outs) "Still, having a just and honorable man like Brunwulf in charge can only be an improvement. Unlike Ulfric, Brunwulf has shown a great willingness to work with the other races and make us feel more at home here." Also doesn't sound like a man who is narrow-minded. I'd also say theres enough dialog from other NPCs to suggest whatever Ulfric is saying is coming off as "Skyrim is for the Nords and Nords only"