Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-27007772-20140611204941/@comment-25513154-20150615233827

Fogo219

Thank you;

'''The empire lovers keep forgetting it is almost exactly like giving away ones soul when you sign that treaty. The Thalmore WANTED THEM TO DO THAT. Just that alone was a massive move to end man. Yet people keep overlooking this.'''

College Mage: Ferris

Well, how about i go into even more detail, but first let ask a few questions.

Did the last db go with Ralof or Hadvar...answer Ralof.

Does the Dragonborn killed thalmore agents named or unamed through out the game...Yes.

Did the Db kill the Empr of Tamerial...Yes.

ok let me get to your points.

I liked this point. I didn't take Sybille's information at face value, even as an Empire supporter, as she's bias, and raise Torygg, so of course she would only speak highly of him. Taken with a grain of salt, we can at least confirm Torygg was a reasonable man and king. Your point however, as-to asking how he could have kept his kingdom if he couldn't defend it, could also be used on Ulfric. Ulfric even says he knows Skyrim could not stand an all-out invasion from the Empire. (Despite being completely opposed to the Empire, Ulfric will refuse to kill the  Emperor during his visit to Solitude. If you question him about this he will tell you that "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now.") If the Empire is as weak and dead as you believe, and Ulfric claims he could not win that fight, what chance does he have against the Dominion? This is Ulfric, in-game saying he could not take on Imperial forces alone. This is FACT.

'Sigh...bro your doing what the stormcloaks want/ish when you kill the emperors cousin for the DBH quest. Let me state this again the player is doing the job of the stormcloaks when he kill the cousin of the emperor. " is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms." this is bad writing on beths part were they up in arms when the db killed her...hmm guess not. Only the Penilus people were up in arms and guess what their dead.'

2) can't put all these words down typed because the post will get to large and i want to explain even beyond this. hope u understand.

' Um if u didn't know what lack of faith is it not holding up to your God's standard of living there by failing this is lack of fate and faith. The penalty for this is death.... The emperor was killed in skyrim. See how that adds up. Notice also the comment i made on fogo219. '

To your comments on General Tullius, I will simply say General Tullius does not represent the Empire's overall feelings towards the Nords. If you're willing to believe lack of Faith in Shor somehow means they were bound to fail, I will point out other provinces don't believe in Shor either, and it doesn't make them any less right or wrong on any given situation.

'''Do u mean like the dark elves that got pushed out from their home land by the argonions and the red mountain event or the Bretons from high rock that are deep in imperial and thalmore bribes and dealings with the little court pickings or the Bosmer that are getting getting killed by the thalmore for looking at a Domionion solider the wrong way or the Cat folk that are deep in the Thalmores pockets or lastly the empire that tried to sell its soul to the thalmore for a little bit more air before they get crushed. hmm. By the way general Tullius...that guy is a bad example and he's the leading govner of the army. '''

3)  Facts? While I can agree to SOME similarities to Jesus and the Dragonborn, they are few and far between. I don't recall someone being born with the holy spirit every few centuries to shout down non-believers... That aside, there's no in-game evidence that suggests the Dragonborn is here to test Humanity, however we do have legends that speak of the Dragonborn being the "counter" to the end of days brought about by Alduin. Which has nothing to do with the choice between stomrcloak and imperial really...

'''lol sorry i almost forgot to put Jesus and David fusion. it's Davids parallel empire. Also they are there to Test humanity thats why they were made, to rule/test/destory/banish evil/stop alduin for a time/build empires. They are just mini akatoshes in human form remember "Akatosh said to worship" him and all divines. The Timber septim thing was just a test, just like test to identify someone trying to destroy nirn liturally. '''

'''Plus it does have something to do with armies...you know alduin eating them and how the quest is liturally forced on the CANON Db. '''

3) ~Talk and no action? where is the evidence of this? While i agree we don't SEE the action i will point out, were in another province... and our only real interaction is with a single legion and their general. That's a very limited view on the inner-workings of the Empire. and what corruption? I've seen a few people throw around the word "corruption" without any evidence... I'll restate a point I made earlier, the closest you get to the "corruption" is the vie for power that goes on, but the same could be said of Ulfric.

'''Did u actually type that? General Tuluis was the Military Govner its repeated through out the game, when you kill him Ulfric states you cut the head off the legion alongside that with the emperor and his soldiers. '''

" and what corruption? " R'''eally did you just type that? Ok how about one strong example MAVEN BLACK BRAIR and her CONNECTIONS to the empire and Elenwen. Hmm. How about a next example of the Empire can't make a proper move with out the Thalmore LETTING them do it. Plus with maven in the empire eyes she will sell them out. Also rem that their are more people like Maven in the empire.'''

<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">The events you're talking about and the events that lead to the civil war are vastly different, and to top that off, the underlining cause of the civil war was Ulfric being convinced he caused the fall of the white gold tower.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">and then being released into the world to cause trouble. NOT from anything the Empire did directly in Skyrim.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">'''<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Read that over again. '''

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">4) Shouldn't have gotten the option to side with the empire....? what? why not?

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">'''<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">The Ldb went with Ralof,. Plus general Tullius/Elenwen would have marked his face. Matter of fact Elenwen did mark his face and sent Thalmoer after him multiple times. Plus the repeated bounty of killing thalmore named or unamed did reach her ears and guess what thats illegal to kill thalmore. Try killing a thlamore around a Imerial soldier and get that bounty. '''

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">S'''econdly they were in prisoned for the other two games. Why did u even bring that up.'''

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">5) <span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">So...you're saying... everyday there's an ambush of Stormcloak soldiers.. in which, a single innocent person is caught in the middle of... and executed?

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">Lol bro do you know on a average how many people die per day, added to that There is a war going and also remember skyrim is shrunk way down it even missing hold citys/npcs/factions/Regions/ from lore in past games.

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">No... I'm sorry but no... The Empire had set up a trap to capture the LEADER of a rebellion, it was only supposed to be Stormcloak soldiers there. and it WORKED! They had him and his men, anyone else caught in the same trap is what's known as collateral damage.  <<<< '''Corruption. Those add up you know. '''

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Theres no way even Ulfric himself would have let a single person go, had  his<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> trap captured Tullius. What's one "innocent" life weighed against the possibility the Dragonborn was a new recruit of the Stormcloaks, or some advisor, or spy...The risk wasn't worth it.

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Wow did you even play skyrim, you don't think he would have killed the db then while the ambush was happening. Secondly Ulfric wanted to let Rikke go but she didn't. He also let the other Jarls live in solitude (to be fare thats bad design on beths part-This part of the game wasn't Finished)

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">I bet had they let you go everyone would be complaining the Empire is too laxed on prisoners.... ALSO since we don't know our own character's background... there really isn't any way for us to say they're totally innocent. They were caught crossing the border, did they murder someone in Cyrodiil and needed to leave the country? who knows...

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">That bet would have been lost, because Hadvar could have easily went and told General Tullius this persons not on the the list (curroption) also remember That lady next to Hadvar >>Curroption

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Thousands murdered? evidence please... where are you getting deathtoll numbers in the thousands that showcase the empire directly killing innocent people? This is just your opinion of the situation at hand and you shouldn't be stating it as fact.

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">'''<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Did you actually type that? This number comes from the fact that the empire and the Dominions soliders " collateral damage" plus the over killing of Talos worshippers, plus the thalmore/Imperial killing innocent people for fun. (remember those war stories of ra.pe and killing farmers for not having their way with the farmers childern or wife. THOSE ADD UP. '''

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">I will again request evidence of these numbers, because as you yourself said, if the death toll really was in the thousands, it would spark a lot of Agro... Furthermore, the Dominion and the Empire are in a cold war state, with neither side wanting to disrupt the peace, and killing thousands without cause would end that peace. Also tho, you're speaking as if the Thalmor and the Empire are one-in-the-same, they are not. They are 2 very different and very opposing forces.

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">'''<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Sigh... it is sparking agro> Hammerfell, Valenwood, Elswer, Argoina, Cyrodill and Skyrim they have people agro  thats why there are these rebillions everywhere. Not just one. By the way they (empire & Thalmore)are now the same as the events of the great war and the empire selling it's body for a bit more air. '''

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;"> 6)  <span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;line-height:18.2000007629395px;">The Imperial Province is  <span style="color:rgb(106,106,106);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;line-height:18.2000007629395px;font-weight:bold;">ravaged <span style="color:rgb(84,84,84);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:small;line-height:18.2000007629395px;"> by strife.   Ahh remember when dear old Cicero said that. I'll let u read the rest. 

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">All that needs to happen is cyrodill gets their own rebellion going strong, hammerfell needs to get themselves thoughter and alongside that skyrim needs to start preparing to join up partys." 

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">7) Wait... What? so you agree we all need to work together... but you're also saying the Empire is no different from the elves (which they're very different...) So you see the need for the forces to all join together but you think the Empire alone can just lose Skyrim, and still be ok with fighting the dominion with them? By that logic, Hammerfell would be totally cool with rejoining the Empire... (Which we all know isn't going to happen anytime soon.) Your idea for ending the Dominion is... Skyrim becomes independent, while the Empire loses forces there. Then...somehow... the "weak" and "corrupt" Empire, straightens out it's own problems on their homefield... then like best buddies, Skyrim, Cyrodiil, and Hammerfell just go and wreck the Dominion? HOW does any of that make sense? The elves are weakened somewhat yes, but they are still a force to be reckoned with, and not to mention they have the wood elves AND the Khajit to call on as well! it's not just everyone vs Summerset Isles!

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">'''  NO, All i am trying to tell peps is that that empire (sold itself to the Domionion) is gone what needs to happen is a rebellion (proper) needs to break out in cyrodill while the old empire takes its last air bubble of air handed down by the thalmore. By this time hammerfell would have gotten help from the ldb with there thalmore purge from their land. This massive attack will take sometime for both side maybe one or two years. By then the ldb has made a connected rebellion in cyrodill. The armies of the Domionion will be stretched out thin with all these mini wars and the massive take down all over Tamerial. This would be like a new empire/ish they may remain broken apart but still connected. Plus lets not forget the The last db is what the Domionion fears the most. '''

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;"><span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">This is the straw that broke the camel's back I'm afraid... I'll say again... <span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">the creation kit is just code used to make the game run correctly, it in no way defines anything set in the Lore. The darkbrotherhood trying to kill you means the empire MUST have called them? c'mon... ignoring the fact theres NO evidence that would support that claim, I'll also point out the only known person from the Empire who was able to contact the Dark brotherhood, did so to put a hit on the Emperor... not the dragonborn. Since Mirrak's men tried to kill you I suppose that means he secretly works for the Stormcloaks? (of course not! because that doesn't make sense!) The bounty for killing Thalmor? You mean like the bounty you get when you kill... anyone..? The Empire wanting the protagonist dead is nothing new... and as previously mentioned, he was caught in a trap ment to capture Stormcloaks... sucks that it happened but it is what it is. It doesnt prove the Empire's "corruption" or "rot" it just proves their Thorough when it comes to ending a rebellion. You should also note, even if you tell Tullius you were there to be beheaded, he STILL lets you join! So obviously it wasn't even his concern, it was the ONE captain who refused to listen to a lower-ranked soldier saying the protagonist wasn't on the list.

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<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">'''<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> lol. Bro they admitted the Civil war was never completed. The game is missing as i said hold regions and citys in LORE reseach it. Then get back to me with actual points for the empire. '''

<p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px;font-family:Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:12px;line-height:normal;">'''<span style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">beyond that is just ranting with a person in denial. '''