Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150831205813

Sorry for the late reply. My schedule has been a real pain and has prevented me from writing longer posts.

College Mage: Ferris wrote: You're right on that part sorry I'm mixing my information together. I agree it wouldn't be unreasonable to ask for some form of compensation. But at this point in time he was an Imperial citizen denying the empire access to the city, he could have handled it so much better to get either the same results or better results. as for furthering his OWN goals, I just personally found it a bit suspect it took Jarl Igmund promising Ulfric free worship of Talos in order to convince him to come and help. It just seems to me Ulfric's decisions to do things stem from him challenging authority to prove he's superior, and part of that involves him using things such as Free Talos worship as a means to challenge said authority. Religious freedom being the biproduct, not the goal. etc etc. I'd say it benefited him greatly, he saved a city and tried to give them free worship, only to have the Empire bow to the Thalmor and deny the gift he gave. it was all just slander against the Empire, which is why they in-turn wrote about how Ulfric did all these "terrible" things while in command (which for the record I don't believe he did).

since it took Igmund having to promise free worship, I really don't think Ulfric would have accepted ANY other terms. It undermines his whole point. The EMpire also couldn't exactly bargain with him either, what he was doing was illegal, and the Empire can't be seen rewarding someone who held a city hostage, it sets a bad precedent. How many bandits would then try the same thing? You are correct on the Empire not wanting to appear weak, I agree to that. Especially RIGHT after the war. I figured from dialogues in game, that Ulfric's hatred against the Empire came from the Markarth Incident. It is where the rebellion supposedly start. It is also mentioned in the Thalmor Dossier that Ulfric was "becoming generally uncooperative" after the Empire's betrayal. There is no mention of Ulfric being a staunch Empire-hater pre-Markarth Incident. That is why I don't really think Ulfric could not have been reasoned with, he probably wasn't nearly as hostile against the Empire until they stabbed hi back. Even though I agree that Ulfric could have handled things much better. But then again, so could the Empire have too. Like I said previous, both sides acted poorly in this case. Also, how was reclaiming Markarth illegal? The Reach belonged to the Nordic Jarl of Markarth, which the Forsworn deposed and took control for themselves. Ulfric and his militia was therefore sent to restore order. The Nords are simply trying to reclaim stole property. Much like how the Legion is trying to restore order in the Old Holds. Is the Legion's campaign against the Stormcloaks illegal too? Why the double standard? (on another note: I applaud you for not taking the book "The Bear of Markarth" as a serious source. Reason I don't consider the book valid is because the contents doesn't add up with other in-game sources.)

Technically The Empire didn't lie, they gave them the free worship, the lore states "eventually" the Dominion heard about what happened and put pressure on them. Everyone was stupid in this situation, The Empire for agreeing to the terms, Ulfric for demanding those terms, Jarl Igmund for promising those terms, The Dominion for just being the dominion, everyone was dumb... The Empire didn't have a choice in the matter tho, they signed a peace agreement, which Ulfric knew full well about. he jeopardized the entire province by demanding those terms, because had the dominion not put pressure on, and instead said "well you broke the pact, time to attack" it would have lead to more lives lost. Now granted, I know the dominion wasn't in any shape to actually continue to fight either, but thats not something thats well known among the common folk.

But they did lie. I'm pretty sure the Imperials realized that the Dominion would figure out sooner than late. Keeping ones word only to plan of going back on it is not being truthful. They simply "accepted" Ulfric's term so they could garrison the city with Legionnaires. Once the Reach was fully theirs, Ulfric and his demands became obsolete. Really, if the Empire didn't want a war that could mean losing plenty of troops, the reclaiming of Markarth would have been ideal to secede Skyrim peacefully.

It would make sense if the Stormcloaks didn't kill Imperials to get said independence. Theres nothing in the treaty that would forbid the Empire from aiding any other province, be it Skyrim, Hammerfell, or even Morrowind. I'm sure the dominion wouldn't be happy but there's nothing they could really do about it, especially since trade routes pas directly through Skyrim to High Rock. That would be a BOLD move for the dominion to try and demand the Empire not have peace agreements, or alliances with other nations. Not that they even have to tell the dominion what they're doing in regards to sending ambassadors anyways. At best the dominion could send someone along with them to "ensure" the alliance made doesn't involve the Empire breaking the terms of their agreement. It's not something they'd threaten troops over (they're also still pretty weak) besides, it'd be easier for them to allow the alliance to be made and then try and split them up to cause dissidence between the 2 nations. plus since it's usually part of the Empire's policy to absorb other nations, technically it would give the Dominion free reign into the ally's nation as well, as the WGC specifies ANY Imperial owned province.

I kind of have to disagree. Yes, it doesn't specifically say in the WGC that they can't help other provinces. But this could be seen as a provocation by the other side and, in the intrest of relations, the Empire would not help the enemies of the Thalmor(at least not officially). The Empire, judging from their decisions they have made in the past, is more likely to cave in over a threat of war than the Dominion. Also, if that was the case, why is there no mention of the Empire resuming relations with Hammerfell. Most likely due to Hammerfell would refuse any Imperial presence, but the Dominion would also threaten with war if they helped their enemies. It could be a part of the Thalmor's plan of weakening the Empire by preventing trade with opposing nations.

The difference is exactly that, with Hammerfell they fought the dominion, with Skyrim, Ulfric was fighting the Empire. It breaks down like this, The Empire said "ok fine we'll sign, sorry Hammerfell, but huge portions of your lands now belong to the dominion" Hammerfell in turn said "yeah, no. they can't have those lands, we'll kill them if they try and take them." The Dominion then chimed in and said "If they fight us, it means YOURE fighting us, tell them to stand down" Hammerfell didnt stand down, and kept killing dominion forces, forcing the Empire to just say "Pull the troops they are no longer part of the Empire and therefor no longer bound to the treaty" But in the case of Skyrim, it wasn't "we'll keep fighting the dominion for our religious freedoms" it was "The Empire can Sod off and on, for allowing the dominion to take away our Talos" Then you have the Jarl who kills their High King, it'd be like if the Count of Skingrad killed the Emperor, The Empire couldn't just let that go. Ulfric made it a fight against the Empire, he kept challenging their authority, and any leader who lets that go unchecked isn't a leader. He didn't have to make it a fight against the Empire, he chose to. The Empire can't just let him get away with whatever he wants. He was rebelling against the Empire specifically and "you don't coddle a revolt, you put it down". I will refer to my statement that Skyrim could not wage war on their terms due to the heavy Imperial influence in Skyrim and its ruler; the High King. It is a sad thing, but I do believe that removing Imperial authority was the only way for Skyrim to secede. The Imperials had themselves rooted too deep in Skyrim to willingly let go. Like I said, the case with Hammerfell is different. They were forced to let the province go, due to the treaty. Because they already lost a province, they tried to make efforts to not lose more. Otherwise the authority and power of the Empire would be too diminished to be recognized. Also, it is said: "Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty." Basically, they didn't object the treaty by keep fighting the Thalmor. They kept fighting after the Empire renounced the province and pulled the truth out.

True. But the Empire didn't try to use force on them, nor did they use force on Skyrim either, and yet the Stormcloaks are attacking the Empire. As I said before the Talos ban wasn't even being enforced. There were no Imperial troops FORCING anything on anyone, it was the Empire telling the High King, who told the Jarls "Remove the shrines of Talos" until Ulfric brought force into it. which leads us back to not coddling a revolt. The Empire needs Skyrim, we all agree on that point, why would they want to murder their best vanguard troops in order to get the nation? The Empire is defending itself from the revolt Ulfric has instigated, it's acting just as ANY other nation would given the same circumstances. That's partly why theres only 1 legion there to solve the problem, they don't want to invade Skyrim to bring it to heel, they just want to stop Ulfric. If he had fought the Dominion, the Empire couldn't very well forcefully stop them, aside from it appearing like they're helping their enemy, they'd be reducing their own numbers.

I doubt the law against Talos wasn't entirely enforced. Why would Nords have secret shrines in their homes in the Imperials didn't care? Why would Ulfric even bring up the Talos worship as an issue if Skyrim was completely unaffected? Gerdur, along with dialogue from Stormcloak soldiers, hinted that the Thalmor was dragging people of even before the rebellion began. I am sure the enforcing of the Talos ban was made temporarily worse due to the rebellion, but I would say it had already had a prominent effect on the lives of Nords.

Well aside from Ulfric, theres the man who hires the Darkbrotherhood to kill the Emperor, we have Black Marsh taking advantage of post-oblivion crisis Morrowind, The dominion coming into power I just meant there was this sudden rush of people taking advantage of the chaos, and the Empire is having a hard time keeping up making them blind to other problems and concerns.

There has always been trouble in Tamriel. But the Septim Empire has always been able to hold itself together. That is why the Septim Empire was so strong and successful. Unbreakable, until the end of the Third Era. Now? It's falling apart. Which sucks, believe me. But why should the provinces be punished for the Empire's decadence and errors? That is why I, personally, can't feel sympathy for the Mede Empire. They only have themselves to blame for their miseries.

I agree it could help them realize they need to focus on Cyrodiil first, but not at this present time, not with the Dominion on their doorstep with a 3 nation army at the ready. Jarl Balgruuf said it best when he said the 2 countries need eachother, and that mutual benefit could come from being allies, but they can't exactly make nice with Ulfric in charge. The dominion needs to be stopped first, then the Empire should regroup in Cyrodiil and focus on JUST Cyrodiil.

I dont think Skyrim needs the Empire as much as the Empire needs Skyrim. They Empire lives only through the blood of the other provinces. Also, even if the Dominion have 3 nations at their disposal, there are atill 4 nations(united or not) against them. I dont see the odds changing just because they don't fight under the same banner.

Well i mean if we're going by Lore and not mechanics, most of the Stormcloaks are farmers not fighters, and their combat style is offensive, not defensive.And acting defensively on their own turf would also mean allowing the dominion some ground within Skyrim. And if half the manpower in Skyrim is the Empire, if they were to lose or pull their troops you're left with half of skyrim defending the whole of skyrim. If the Empire still owns Skyrim, even with only half it's troops (with the other half unwilling to fight) fighting IN Cyrodiil, theres no need to defend Skyrim, as the dominion wouldn't even make it that far.

I strongly disagree. It only makes sense, if the Dominion decides to focus on Cyrodiil again. But they already tried that once and failed. The Thalmor don't intend to lose again. They may try other approaches. Perhaps divide some of their forces to attack Skyrim, thus cutting of the only escape route left for the Legion(since Hammerfell won't accept him and the border to High Rock is covered by tall mountains.) The thought of taking away all of Skyrim's manpower and put them in Cyrodiil is most unsettling.