Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-27007772-20140611204941/@comment-26356342-20150601180032

Phantasys wrote: You love waving around the WGC as a justification but the WGC while allows for Thalmor presence as treaty enforcers ONLY. It does not in any way indicate an allowance of Dominion armies in imperial territory or there would be Thalmor occupation of Cyrodil right now. An independent Skyrim would cut off High Rock from both Imperial and Dominion influence due to the borders of Skyrim and Hammerfell cutting it off from Cyrodil. With how much Ulfric hates the thalmor do you really think he'll let the thalmor forces leave? Even during the course of the civil war every thalmor within stormcloak areas are put to the sword such as when Markarth falls Ondolemar gets axed by Galmar (this is never shown in the vanilla game but the code has a battle for Markarth and at the end Galmar kills Ondolemar). The thalmor forces wouldn't go anywhere they'd be DEAD.

The empire ALREADY has the strength to defeat the thalmor and HAS ALWAYS had that power but they merely refuse to do anything. "The Great War" clearly states that the dominion armies were divided into two sections one bound for Cyrodil and the other to Hammerfell. The book states that the dominion army in Cyrodil was completely destroyed and its leader hung from the White Gold Tower for weeks (The only good thing Titus Mede II has ever done)...and the empire took that chance to sign a treaty with the most outrageous terms imaginable! It wasn't forced on them by the thalmor the empire had the upper hand and proceeded to voluntarily go to the thalmor and sign that betrayal of all men! Even a child could've gotten more reasonable conditions out of a ceasefire especially since the empire had the advantage and momentum. This is further compounded by the fact that Hammerfell would later defeat the remaining dominion forces BY THEMSELVES and gotten a far better treaty out of them. (Second treaty of Stros'Mkai) The empire serves the thalmor now and is the enemy. You want to claim otherwise but the game itself has made it abundantly clear. Even the code has the thalmor and the imperials under one faction labelling. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Factions_I It is a literal fact that the empire and the dominion are now essentially one and the same. The discussion has devolved, and your outright refusal to see reason, both baffles me and tires me out... I took a small break to come back with a clear head but re-reading your rambling seems to have evoked the same emotions out of me once more.

I'll Admit fault on the treaty not allowing outright military presence within the providence, and tho it could be argued that with as many Thalmor justicars and their entourage of body guards there already is a military presence.... What I meant was that the Thalmor are presently calling the shots, and the Empire has no posistion to deny them. In reference to Tullius, He's constantly talking about how he'd want nothing more than to blow off the Thalmor but he can't afford to rock the boat. To quote: "That's putting it mildly. The Thalmor invited me here to remind everyone that they can tell the Empire what to do. I would refuse, but I don't want to jeopardize the peace between us."    If the Thalmor wanted to use Cyrodiil as a jumping point into Skyrim, they could. The Empire, weakened from a civil war with Skyrim, is in no posistion to tell them "no", ON TOP of the fact they could feel bitter towards losing the providence AND possibly losing their Emperor to Skyrim if the Dark brotherhood questline was completed in your playthrough.

The Empire did/does not have the Strength to face the Dominion head on, it only had the strength to regain it's providence back, both sides were hit hard. It says that in "The Great War" article you referenced. " Although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was fathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty." If they had the power to destroy the Dominion why on earth would they have signed the treaty?! they had too much gold and land and just wanted to give it away? is that REALLY what you believe? The Empire grew tired of it all and just had a yard sale, handing out whatever to the first invading force? By the Nine, I cannot understand how you don't grasp they were in a very weakened state and NEEDED to recover, and the easiest method that saved the most lives was to sign a surrender.

You make Hammerfell sound as if it's filled with burly warriors who strong armed the Thalmor into surrender, it's not that simple. to (again) reference "The Great War" article, " The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. The truth of that assertion can, of course, never be known. But the Redguards should not forget the great sacrifice of Imperial blood - Breton, Nord, and Cyrodilic - at the Battle of the Red Ring that weakened the Dominion enough to allow the eventually  Second Treaty of Stros M'kai  in  4E 180  and the withdrawal of Aldmeri forces from Hammerfell." This is left ambiguous on purpose, to allow people the discussion. This has however lead people to blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isnt a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.

Last and certainly not least, the Game code cannot be used as a means to form an opinion... perhaps it can for you... but that isn't wise. Just because the gamecode labels the 2 of them as the same faction (most likely to make sure the 2 forces dont ever openly fight each other) the code itself isn't a citation. The code happens behind the scenes to make sure things unfold the way there were intended...