The Elder Scrolls Wiki:Moot/Log August 2019


 * 11:11 Atvelonis: ok we can start in a minute
 * 11:11 Rozty: hello tiny you must be new here, i've never seen you in a moot before
 * 11:12 TinyClayMan: Ah what's a moot?
 * 11:12 Starkiller131: Who the heck is Rozty?
 * 11:12 Atvelonis: who's this atvelonis guy
 * 11:12 Rozty: idk i came from the discord ping (kappa)
 * 11:12 Starkiller131: I heard Atvelonis was corrupt.. Any truth to that?
 * 11:12 Rozty: yes
 * 11:12 Atvelonis: absolutely
 * 11:13 Starkiller131: XD
 * 11:13 Krotomo: Atvelonis is a scumbag
 * 11:13 Starkiller131: ^ As his alt I agree.
 * 11:13 Atvelonis: * Atvelonis bans Krotomo
 * 11:13 Starkiller131: * Starkiller131 bans Atvelonis
 * 11:14 Krotomo Help I’m being admin abused
 * 11:14 Sakaratte: * Sakaratte takes over TES
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 * 11:14 Starkiller131: ^
 * 11:14 Atvelonis: hey
 * 11:14 Starkiller131: (Support)
 * 11:14 Atvelonis: Ok well it's like a quarter after so we should probably get on with it
 * 11:14 TinyClayMan: Ah, mobile internet is better near the window
 * 11:14 Atvelonis: So all my topics today are about removing useless infobox variables from ESO pages
 * 11:15 TinyClayMan: And also mine
 * 11:15 Atvelonis: I wanted to start with Template:OnlineLocations, which has two parameters that I think aren't really necessary
 * 11:15 Rozty: yes
 * 11:15 Atvelonis: these would be "quests" and "characters"\
 * 11:15 Rozty: can we expand it to other games as well like morrowind and morrowind
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 * 11:16 Atvelonis: and morrowind?
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 * 11:16 Atvelonis: I don't really have an issue with that
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 * 11:16 Rozty:
 * 11:16 Atvelonis: well we'll stick to locations for now
 * 11:16 Rozty: this is currently the character template for morrowind
 * 11:16 Rozty: ok but i'm bringing this up again (kappa)
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 * 11:17 Atvelonis: for, the issue with the variables in question is that the content is duplicated elsewhere on the article
 * 11:17 Atvelonis: every single location page is supposed to have a ==Characters== header, and a ==Quests== header, if applicable
 * 11:17 Rozty so quests, characters and enemies?
 * 11:18 Shockstorm: esp with locs that have many chars/quests. gets annoying
 * 11:18 Atvelonis: enemies has already been removed in spirit
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 * 11:18 Atvelonis: i just have to get around to it with the bot
 * 11:18 Atvelonis: yes agree shock
 * 11:18 Rozty: ah
 * 11:18 Rozty: if we are doing this for eso locations though, shouldn't we be doing this for other games as well
 * 11:18 Sakaratte: From what I remember, infoboxes are meant to give the key information. Characters might not be that key, but I wouldn't know about quests
 * 11:19 Atvelonis: the problem is that many locations have a ton of quests/characters
 * 11:19 Rozty: quests can get too long with eso, especially in cities
 * 11:19 Rozty: the list i meant
 * 11:19 Atvelonis: you can do a see also thing, but it's a little weird to see like 4 of those in a single infobox
 * 11:19 Sakaratte: Therefore, making the box cluttered.
 * 11:19 TinyClayMan: "Key" as in "main quest/region quest/faction quest"?
 * 11:19 Sakaratte: Id' be all for killing them
 * 11:19 Rozty: yeah, and making the variables useless
 * 11:20 Atvelonis: the TOC exists btw so a "see below" linking to an H2 is sort of dumb
 * 11:20 Rozty: lol yeah that;s true
 * 11:20 Atvelonis: so any concerns about this, or can we move onto voting?
 * 11:20 Rozty: does the toc exist for mobile as well?
 * 11:20 TinyClayMan: :kappa:
 * 11:21 Atvelonis: no but the headers are more visible on mobile H2 at leasdt
 * 11:21 Shockstorm: no concerns i can think of
 * 11:21 Rozty: although everything there is not collapsed by default iirc so it's easier to scroll through
 * 11:21 Sakaratte: It seems like a no brainer to me
 * 11:21 Rozty: yeah
 * 11:21 Atvelonis: Ok. So we're voting to remove the "quests" and "characters" variables from, as they are redundant. (+)
 * 11:21 TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 11:22 Sakaratte: (support)
 * 11:22 Rozty: (+)
 * 11:22 Krotomo: (=)
 * 11:22 Shockstorm: plus thing (+)
 * 11:22 Atvelonis: (+)
 * 11:22 Shockstorm: there lol
 * 11:22 Atvelonis: yes 5-1-0 saka? matt? wait lol just matt still has to vote
 * 11:23 Sakaratte: Mobile makes it a pain to count
 * 11:23 Atvelonis: we'll give it a minute or two and then move on
 * 11:23 TinyClayMan: Mobile chat is a pain
 * 11:24 Rozty: i laugh while standing above you with my desktop chat (kappa)
 * 11:24 TinyClayMan: N'wah
 * 11:25 Atvelonis: Ok second topic. Same thing, but for Template:OnlineCharacters and proposing that we remove "rank," "quests," and "voice"
 * 11:25 Atvelonis: quests for the same reason as : redundant
 * 11:25 Atvelonis: no one actually understands what rank means. it's just for titles
 * 11:25 Atvelonis: but that's better just left in the lede
 * 11:26 Rozty: yeah agree
 * 11:26 Atvelonis: and no one ever uses voice
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 * 11:26 Rozty: and since we arrived to the characters, i bring up again the morrowind character infobox (kappa)
 * 11:26 Sakaratte: I'm assuming voice is voice actors?
 * 11:26 Atvelonis: yes
 * 11:26 Rozty: yeah
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 * 11:26 TinyClayMan: Second topic?
 * 11:26 Atvelonis: better fitted for Voice Cast (Online) yeah
 * 11:27 TinyClayMan: Ah, missed everything
 * 11:27 Atvelonis: -"rank," "quests," and "voice" on OnlineLoc
 * 11:27 Rozty: |health = |magicka = |fatigue = |fight = |alarm = |flee =
 * 11:27 Rozty: morrowind has these variables that i don't really find that useful as long as the level is available
 * 11:27 Atvelonis: characters
 * 11:27 Atvelonis: rather
 * 11:27 Sakaratte: Rank and quests I'm all for, but with voice, is it a case of no-one knowing who voices who, or they don't bother with it?
 * 11:27 Atvelonis: bruh roz that's a different topic
 * 11:27 Rozty: both
 * 11:27 Rozty: same enough &gt; :(
 * 11:27 Rozty: why does it change it to emotes
 * 11:28 Atvelonis: MediaWiki:Emoticons
 * 11:28 Atvelonis: anyway. other questions about these variables?
 * 11:28 Shockstorm: for most chars we don't know voice, yea
 * 11:28 Rozty: nah, quests is the same as before, and unlike class we can't know rank in-game
 * 11:28 Shockstorm: unless its like a main char from back in 2014
 * 11:28 Sakaratte: I'm just thinking if there is an alternative solution for voice as it might be interesting, but drawing a blank
 * 11:29 TinyClayMan: Should all of the voice info go to the Voice Cast?
 * 11:29 Atvelonis: It can be put in trivia if it's important
 * 11:29 Shockstorm: I think we list voice actors we know in trivia
 * 11:29 Rozty: eh, i find even that redundant as well
 * 11:29 Sakaratte: You already have an alternative solution, so I shall concede
 * 11:29 Shockstorm: theres a bunch that we dont know and idk if we can datamine
 * 11:30 Atvelonis: it's not really worth documenting for 99% of characters
 * 11:30 Atvelonis: if it's relevant, into trivia it can go
 * 11:30 Atvelonis: imo
 * 11:30 Rozty: because it's a small pool of voice actors in the first place, the voices are about the same for a large number of characters, so mentioning it for every single one is not worth it
 * 11:30 Shockstorm: yea like the same lady did most of the Redguard female voices lol
 * 11:31 Sakaratte: So about as notable as blades of grass
 * 11:31 Rozty yes
 * 11:31 Sakaratte: Might as well burn it
 * 11:32 Atvelonis: Ok. So we're voting to removing the "rank," "quests," and "voice" variables from since they are largely unneeded/redundant/unused.
 * 11:32 Atvelonis: (+)
 * 11:32 Sakaratte: (=)
 * 11:32 Rozty: (+)
 * 11:32 Krotomo: (+)
 * 11:32 Atvelonis: 3-1-0
 * 11:32 TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 11:33 Atvelonis: 4-1-0
 * 11:33 Atvelonis: shock? redmatt?
 * 11:33 Shockstorm: (+)
 * 11:33 Rozty: i don't think redmatt is with us any more...
 * 11:34 Atvelonis: rip redmatt 2019-2019
 * 11:34 Atvelonis: 5-1-0
 * 11:34 Sakaratte: He's dead Jim
 * 11:35 Atvelonis: Alright - we can move on then
 * 11:35 Rozty: the next topic is by tiny right?
 * 11:36 Atvelonis: I have 2 more haha
 * 11:36 Atvelonis: So now it's time for . I want to remove "resistance" and "quest" but I'm open to discussion ofc
 * 11:36 Rozty: when
 * 11:36 Rozty: oh those
 * 11:36 Atvelonis: I have no idea what resistance is and no one else seems to either?
 * 11:36 Rozty: i don't even know what resistance is
 * 11:36 Atvelonis: @Shock @Tiny you guys were talking about it earlier
 * 11:36 Rozty: why did we have it in the first place
 * 11:37 Sakaratte: Is it related to damage resistance?
 * 11:37 TinyClayMan: Probably
 * 11:37 Atvelonis: yes?
 * 11:37 TinyClayMan: We probably had it because we expected something like damage types from Obl or Mor
 * 11:37 Shockstorm: yea. so unless things have changed, looks all but the very hardest content in game (PvE) has same resistance
 * 11:37 Sakaratte: If you can work out what resistance is, I say keep. If not kill
 * 11:37 Krotomo: If it’s related to damage resistance, that’s important info imo
 * 11:37 Shockstorm: and i dont know of any elemental resistance or such. * * 11:37 Shockstorm: which is odd for a TES game but yea
 * 11:38 Rozty: but does it even eixst
 * 11:38 Rozty: exist*
 * 11:38 TinyClayMan: No
 * 11:38 Rozty: then yeeted it should be
 * 11:38 Sakaratte: TESO use esm files still?
 * 11:38 TinyClayMan: Either no resistance or invulnerability
 * 11:38 Atvelonis: are there really no elemental resistances? interesting
 * 11:38 TinyClayMan: Yes, esm
 * 11:38 Shockstorm: not on enemies it looks like
 * 11:39 Sakaratte: I kind of feel this is a more digging required thing before sending it to the variable graveyard
 * 11:39 Shockstorm: flame does damage over time, shock does AOE usually, frost is like immobilize. so basically status effects
 * 11:39 TinyClayMan: And that's it
 * 11:39 Atvelonis: What are status effects?
 * 11:39 TinyClayMan: No damage differentiation
 * 11:40 Shockstorm: oh. we dont have a page for that lol
 * 11:40 Sakaratte: Maybe you need to phase out resistance and add AOE and DOT?
 * 11:40 Atvelonis: Effects (Online)
 * 11:40 Atvelonis: this?
 * 11:40 Krotomo: I agree with sakaratte. Should make sure before getting rid of it
 * 11:40 Shockstorm: well theres various buffs and debuffs as well as stuff * 11:40 Shockstorm: Burned, Chilled, Poisoned, etc
 * 11:40 TinyClayMan: We have a mix of Buffs and Effects
 * 11:40 Shockstorm: thats mostly alchemy/enchantments
 * 11:40 TinyClayMan: Those pages are bad
 * 11:40 TinyClayMan: >stuuf
 * 11:41 Shockstorm: anyways enemies wouldnt resist or be weak to DoT or AOE
 * 11:41 TinyClayMan: *stuff
 * 11:41 Sakaratte: May I put forward an alternative vote for this topic?
 * 11:41 TinyClayMan: That stuff doesn't exist
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 * 11:41 Atvelonis: What are you thinking Saka?
 * 11:42 Sakaratte: Hold the subject over to next moot and look at both what needs removing and what needs adding to the template?
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 * 11:42 Rozty: well, isn't that what we are doing now, at least regarding what needs to be removed?
 * 11:43 Shockstorm: well we could use some more research on ESO game mechanics
 * 11:43 Rozty: that's true
 * 11:43 Sakaratte: It is, but might as well vote in a rewrite than remove some now and come back later
 * 11:43 Shockstorm: I'd say ppl can remove resistance and such on all non-boss enemies
 * 11:43 Atvelonis: I think I'm leaning toward what saka is saying here for now. I'm pretty sure that resistance isn't a real thing, but I also don't want to jump the gun
 * 11:43 Rozty: i really think that if enemies had such a thing as resistances then it would have been mentioned at least once in the game
 * 11:43 Atvelonis: But I still want to remove quests because it's useless
 * 11:44 Sakaratte: I agree with the removal of quests
 * 11:44 Rozty: and if they have resistances shouldn't they have weaknesses as well anyway? i haven't really noticed anything about that either
 * 11:44 TinyClayMan: No, they don't
 * 11:45 Shockstorm: yea they dont
 * 11:45 Shockstorm: not even like wispmothers and fire or w/e
 * 11:45 Krotomo: Wow eso has very boring pve
 * 11:45 Atvelonis: ^
 * 11:45 TinyClayMan: Yes, sadly
 * 11:45 Rozty: yeah, the engaging part is the quests
 * 11:45 Shockstorm: i think part of thats b/c certain elements are given to a class (like dk=fire, sorc=shock) so it would unbalance things
 * 11:45 Shockstorm: lol yup
 * 11:46 TinyClayMan: The lore*
 * 11:46 Shockstorm: peak eso is adding and rearranging furniture in your mansion
 * 11:46 Shockstorm: or so im told
 * 11:46 Sakaratte: So, Heathfire online?
 * 11:47 Atvelonis: well for now seeing as there is still slight confusion, I'd suggest that we just remove quests and come back to resistances next month
 * 11:47 Atvelonis: concerns with that?
 * 11:47 Sakaratte: None at all
 * 11:47 Rozty anyway, i'm fine with removing the rest, but i think that we shouldn't postpone the resistance thing until next month
 * 11:47 Atvelonis: can we say with certainty that resistances is unneeded?
 * 11:48 Rozty: in the infobox? perhaps not
 * 11:48 TinyClayMan: No one has seen them
 * 11:48 Krotomo: Yeah I see no reason to postpone it since we seem decently sure there’s no resistances
 * 11:48 Sakaratte: Eh, whats a month if it has to be put back.
 * 11:48 Krotomo: Also found this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168384/bosses-monsters-resistances
 * 11:49 Rozty: 2015 tho
 * 11:49 Shockstorm: theres this
 * 11:49 Shockstorm: https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/88ims9/a_friendly_guide_for_penetration_and_resistance/
 * 11:49 Krotomo: Ya true but this dude found no resistance either. But yeah old source
 * 11:49 Sakaratte: Remove both now and review the data and return next month with a clear idea on how to set the infobox up?
 * 11:50 Atvelonis: "Every enemy in PVE except Veteran Maelstrom Arena has 18,200 Physical and 18,200 Spell Resistance."
 * 11:50 Atvelonis: well if this is true then it seems useless to keep the variable
 * 11:50 Atvelonis: and that's from 2018
 * 11:50 Shockstorm: i play eso and talk with some expert pve ppl (im no expert, casual lol) but i would hear if there was a point to having certain elements or weakness/resistances
 * 11:51 Atvelonis: ok
 * 11:51 Atvelonis: I'm fine with removing them
 * 11:51 Rozty: nice
 * 11:52 Atvelonis: So now we're voting to remove the "resistance" and "quests" variables from, as resistance is not really applicable and quests is redundant.
 * 11:52 Atvelonis: (+)
 * 11:52 Rozty: (+)
 * 11:52 Krotomo: (+)
 * 11:52 Rozty: wait, was it only those two?
 * 11:52 Atvelonis: for creatures, yes
 * 11:52 Sakaratte: (+) with consideration for looking at the box
 * 11:52 Shockstorm: (+)
 * 11:52 Atvelonis: 5-0-0
 * 11:52 Atvelonis: tiny?
 * 11:54 Rozty: TinyClayMan
 * 11:55 TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 11:55 Rozty: rip tiny's connection died
 * 11:55 Rozty: oh
 * 11:55 TinyClayMan: Revived
 * 11:55 Atvelonis: 6-0-0
 * 11:55 Atvelonis: noice
 * 11:55 Rozty: don't revive just when i pronounce you dead wtf
 * 11:55 Atvelonis: ok one more
 * 11:55 Sakaratte: Clearly he had just escaped the Hagravens
 * 11:55 TinyClayMan: The Hunt
 * 11:55 Atvelonis: Now I want to remove "characters" and "creatures" from Template:OnlineQuests
 * 11:55 TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 11:56 Sakaratte: Same rationale again I'm assuming?
 * 11:56 Rozty: well, same as before but this time it makes even more snse
 * 11:56 Atvelonis: quest giver is important, but the rest of them are clear enough in the walkthrough itself
 * 11:56 Rozty: sense*
 * 11:56 Atvelonis: creatures is not essential
 * 11:56 Atvelonis: best for the wt itself
 * 11:56 Rozty: creatures especially are too redundant
 * 11:57 Atvelonis: any objections?
 * 11:57 Sakaratte: Nah
 * 11:57 Sakaratte: seems pretty clear cut
 * 11:57 Atvelonis: Ok. So we're voting to remove the "characters" and "creatures" variables from.
 * 11:57 Atvelonis: (+)
 * 11:57 Krotomo: (+)
 * 11:57 Sakaratte: (=)
 * 11:57 TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 11:57 Sakaratte: (+) *
 * 11:57 Rozty: (+)
 * 11:58 Atvelonis: 5-0-0
 * 11:58 Atvelonis: shock?
 * 11:58 Shockstorm: (+)
 * 11:58 Atvelonis: 6-0-0
 * 11:58 Atvelonis: ok that's all I have
 * 11:58 Atvelonis: Tiny, you have the floor
 * 12:00 TinyClayMan: I propose to remove the loot variable from eso creature template
 * 12:00 Rozty: yeah i'm cool with that
 * 12:00 Atvelonis: Why should it be removed?
 * 12:01 TinyClayMan: This topic is similar to all the previous ones.
 * 12:01 TinyClayMan: 1) All of the creatures are not guaranteed to drop something not random (except for bosses).
 * 12:01 TinyClayMan: 2) All of the creatures (except for bosses) are not guaranteed to drop items 100% of the time.
 * 12:01 TinyClayMan: Therefore we cannot list all possible loot (no one can - the list is random).
 * 12:01 TinyClayMan: 3) Most of the creatures don't have unique loot.
 * 12:01 TinyClayMan: Those that do require an explanation on how to get it (the conditions to get the loot). That would clutter the infobox. It would be better to mention it in 2-3 sentences in the first paragraph of the article.
 * 12:01 Sakaratte: Would it be worth retaining on boss pages?
 * 12:01 Rozty: just in case of any resources like bait that are creature specific, it should be mentioned in the page
 * 12:01 Shockstorm: bosses from delves, world bosses, public dungeons, etc have chance to drop unique loot thats noteworthy
 * 12:01 Shockstorm: but yea prob best in article
 * 12:02 TinyClayMan: Yes, drop like that can be mentioned in the first paragraph
 * 12:05 Atvelonis: You'd think that chefs etc. would benefit from having loot available to them on the wiki
 * 12:05 Atvelonis: if an item needs a specific ingredient to be crafted or whatever
 * 12:05 Rozty: would they?
 * 12:05 Atvelonis: I don't know
 * 12:05 Rozty: ah i guess for the creatures that aren't aggressive
 * 12:05 Shockstorm: i dont think monsters would drop ingredients
 * 12:05 Atvelonis: do monsters all drop trash?
 * 12:05 Shockstorm: cept maybe the ones with 1 health that are friendly
 * 12:05 Atvelonis: what is trash used for?
 * 12:06 Rozty: it's sold for money
 * 12:06 Rozty: and that's it
 * 12:06 Shockstorm: a lot of beasts drop clothing scraps, stuff like that. * 12:06 Shockstorm: but varies on ur level and crafting skill
 * 12:06 Atvelonis: I guess that info might be better suited on the item page?
 * 12:06 Rozty: there's also a few spider creatures that drop alchemy ingredients
 * 12:06 Rozty: like one
 * 12:06 Shockstorm: and yea theres various trash stuff (ghosts drop ectoplasm, etc) but theyre all pretty much useless and sell for same
 * 12:06 Shockstorm: oh there are are some insects that give ingredients yea
 * 12:06 Shockstorm: so maybe the field is useful there. theyre common enough
 * 12:07 Rozty: there's spider eggs from what i can remember and leather or something that is used for crafting medium armour i think? but these can be mentioned in the page itself
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 * 12:07 TinyClayMan: Loot variables are mostly not necessary. 50% of the time creatures are subtypes of some species with the same property/cannot be attacked
 * 12:07 Rozty: people looking for those things would visit the item page first * anyway, where we have a list of creatures that drop it
 * 12:08 Atvelonis: fair, roz
 * 12:08 Sakaratte: Its the mostly that in what Tiny said that puts me off * 12:08 Sakaratte: saying yes in absolute
 * 12:08 Rozty: i don't see it as something that important to keep in the infobox since it's not for all creatures and doesn't drop all the time
 * 12:09 TinyClayMan: Like the one for hide scraps on the crafting materials page
 * 12:09 Atvelonis: I'm ok with that
 * 12:09 Atvelonis: other thoughts?
 * 12:09 TinyClayMan: Any questions left unanswered?
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 * 12:10 Rozty: nah i'm good
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 * 12:11 Atvelonis: Ok. So we're now voting to remove the "loot" parameter from
 * 12:11 Atvelonis: (+)
 * 12:11 TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 12:11 Sakaratte: (=)
 * 12:11 Rozty: (+)
 * 12:11 TinyClayMan: (I have another topic, in case my connection won't die)
 * 12:11 Rozty: (heck)
 * 12:11 Atvelonis: 3-1-0
 * 12:11 Krotomo: (+)
 * 12:11 Atvelonis: 4-1-0
 * 12:11 Atvelonis: shock?
 * 12:12 TinyClayMan: (It's short)
 * 12:12 Shockstorm: (neutral)
 * 12:12 Atvelonis: 4-2-0
 * 12:12 Atvelonis: ok that passes
 * 12:12 Atvelonis: Tiny go ahead
 * 12:13 TinyClayMan: I propose to rename the "Attacks" section for Characters and Creatures to "Attacks and abilities"
 * 12:13 Rozty: what's the difference
 * 12:13 Atvelonis: The header
 * 12:13 TinyClayMan: The header
 * 12:14 Rozty: i don't like it when headers have long names so i'd prefer to keep it to one word max (kappa)
 * 12:14 Sakaratte: Could it be split into two sections?
 * 12:14 TinyClayMan: Because I can't call some type of the selfbuff and summoning abilities "attacks"
 * 12:15 Shockstorm: why not just abilities
 * 12:15 Rozty: but it's an attack against you
 * 12:15 Sakaratte: or |attacks |abilities
 * 12:15 Sakaratte: ?
 * 12:15 Atvelonis: abilities are like Skills (Online)
 * 12:15 Rozty: because physical attacks are not abilities
 * 12:15 Atvelonis: I think tiny is saying that something like a creature healing itself isn't an attack
 * 12:15 Rozty: this is about headers though, not infobox variables sakaratte
 * 12:15 Rozty: oh yeah that's true
 * 12:16 Atvelonis: Since ability is sort of an existing term I'm not sure that should be used
 * 12:16 Rozty: we can just rename it to skills then, it fits for attacks as well
 * 12:16 Atvelonis: Could we just call the section "Combat"?
 * 12:16 Sakaratte: I'm getting wrapped up.
 * 12:16 Rozty: oh
 * 12:16 Atvelonis: Skills might be confusing since the player has skills
 * 12:16 Atvelonis: They might think it's meant for them
 * 12:16 Sakaratte: Combat would make more sense
 * 12:17 Rozty: and use the question mark for the different attacks and abilities they have?
 * 12:17 TinyClayMan: /Now that I think of it, I have always been putting #Attacks|See below to that variable
 * 12:17 Rozty: like we are doing for different quest dialogue for characters
 * 12:17 Atvelonis: you mean?
 * 12:17 Rozty: the ;
 * 12:17 Atvelonis: semicolon
 * 12:18 TinyClayMan: * is fine
 * 12:18 Rozty: like ==Combat==
 * Attack
 * blah
 * Skill
 * blah
 * 12:18 TinyClayMan: Asterisk
 * 12:18 TinyClayMan: No, that complicates things
 * 12:18 Rozty: true
 * 12:18 TinyClayMan: The game doesn't differentiate them
 * 12:18 Rozty: yeah combat is just fine in this case
 * 12:18 Rozty: also there's attack on the infobox as well?
 * 12:19 TinyClayMan: Yes
 * 12:19 Rozty: *can we remove that too*
 * 12:19 Sakaratte: Would make sense to change them both at once
 * 12:19 Atvelonis: Attacks isn't in the infobox anymore afaik
 * 12:19 Rozty: oh
 * 12:19 Atvelonis: wait it is
 * 12:19 Atvelonis: nvm
 * 12:19 Rozty: lol
 * 12:19 Rozty: then let's remove it
 * 12:20 Shockstorm: are there any other topics? (i need to go soon, no rush just wondering)
 * 12:20 Atvelonis: if we're using a header for it, why have it in the infobox too
 * 12:20 Atvelonis: none pre-proposed shock
 * 12:20 Rozty: (mine)
 * 12:20 Atvelonis: ok so one more max
 * 12:20 Atvelonis: I think that if we're using a header we can list out descriptions of what the attacks are. So including them in the infobox as well is sort of redundant
 * 12:20 Atvelonis: similar to my earlier proposals
 * 12:21 Rozty: so rename attacks header to combat and remove it completely from infobox?
 * 12:21 Atvelonis: Yes
 * 12:21 Sakaratte: I can roll with that
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 * 12:22 Atvelonis: alright
 * 12:22 Atvelonis: any concerns with that?
 * 12:22 Rozty: no i'm good
 * 12:22 TinyClayMan: Nope
 * 12:22 Atvelonis: Ok. So we're now voting to rename the "Attacks" H2 on creatures articles to "Combat," and remove the "attacks" variable from the infobox completely
 * 12:22 TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 12:23 Sakaratte: (+)
 * 12:23 Rozty: (+)
 * 12:23 Atvelonis: (+)
 * 12:23 Krotomo: (+)
 * 12:23 Shockstorm: (+)
 * 12:23 Atvelonis: 6-0-0
 * 12:23 Atvelonis: ok roz
 * 12:23 Rozty: cool
 * 12:23 Rozty: so just like the eso infoboxes, the morrowind characters infobox especially has variables that just clutter it
 * 12:23 Rozty: |health = |magicka = |fatigue = |fight = |alarm = |flee =
 * 12:23 Rozty: specifically these
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 * 12:25 Rozty: the first three don't really need to be mentioned if we have the level, which is already mentioned above those, and the rest don't even matter outside of whether a character is hostile or not which we can just say in the page itself
 * 12:26 Atvelonis: I actually don't have a problem with stats
 * 12:26 Rozty: and the numbers don't mean much to the average player anyway
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 * 12:26 Atvelonis: Ya but to modders etc. they'd be very useful
 * 12:26 Rozty: modders already have the CS tho
 * 12:26 Atvelonis: Wiki is much more accessible though
 * 12:26 Atvelonis: Honestly these aren't super hard to find and I don't really think they're unnecessary
 * 12:26 Atvelonis: Maybe they could be formatted a little better
 * 12:27 Rozty: they aren't hard to find but they make the infobox too long
 * 12:27 Atvelonis: https://i.gyazo.com/ae30801286ebab0c0a9036bcb4e45fd3.png
 * 12:27 Rozty: i can't think of a way to format them better, they were different things to begin with
 * 12:27 Atvelonis: yeah this isn't great use of space since they're short numbers
 * 12:27 Atvelonis: we could list some of them side by side
 * 12:27 Atvelonis: we already do this for some weapons/item stats
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 * 12:28 Atvelonis: Iron Sword (Skyrim)
 * 12:28 Rozty: oh yeah, that would look better
 * 12:28 Atvelonis: https://i.gyazo.com/c191be2594670744a6fbd7d91164c181.png
 * 12:28 Atvelonis: We could do health, magicka, fatigue on one row, and fight, alarm, and flee on another row, perhaps
 * 12:28 Rozty: idk how good it would look in the middle of the infobox though
 * 12:29 Sakaratte: Seems to me like better use of space might be the solution
 * 12:29 Atvelonis: they're in the middle of the infobox for the weapons haha
 * 12:29 Sakaratte: Link me to a page, I'll see if I can do a mock up
 * 12:29 Atvelonis: I don't think it's a major problem
 * 12:29 Rozty: because it would be those two rows of these inbetween the normal ones
 * 12:29 Atvelonis: eh
 * 12:29 Atvelonis: might take a bit of getting used to but I doubt it would be much of an issue
 * 12:29 Atvelonis: if what we're looking for is efficiency, this is definitely more efficient
 * 12:29 Rozty: yeah
 * 12:29 Sakaratte: If you consider placement order as well it can be nice
 * 12:30 Atvelonis: I think 3/row on 2 rows is fine
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 * 12:31 Rozty definitely better than what we have now
 * 12:31 Krotomo: ^ to both
 * 12:31 Atvelonis: ok any concerns?
 * 12:31 Sakaratte: None here
 * 12:31 Rozty: i'm good
 * 12:32 Atvelonis: Ok. So now we're voting to visually condense the stats on . Health, magicka, and fatigue will be on one row, and fight, alarm, and flee will be on another row, similar to what we already do for weapon infoboxes like.
 * 12:32 Atvelonis: (+)
 * 12:32 Sakaratte: (+)
 * 12:32 Krotomo (+)
 * 12:32 TinyClayMan: (+)
 * 12:33 Rozty: (+)
 * 12:33 Atvelonis: 5-0-0
 * 12:33 Atvelonis: ok nice
 * 12:33 Atvelonis: any last-minute topics?
 * 12:33 Rozty: i'm done
 * 12:33 Sakaratte: I'm good.
 * 12:33 Rozty: do we need a copy of the moot?
 * 12:33 Atvelonis: yes we do need a copy
 * 12:33 Rozty: i can send an unaltered pastebin link
 * 12:33 Atvelonis: go ahead
 * 12:33 Atvelonis: By the power vested in me by Todd Howard and Jimbo Wales, I hereby declare this moot to be complete.