User:Deyvid Petteys/IRC archive

 wb Deyvid  Rosenrot87: on a side note, did you make that Skyrim: Staves page?  hiya deyvid  finishing it up, got distracted lol  Thanks.  Check  [WIKI]: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Category%3AStaves  Mmk, I got a few minutes before I publish anything.  90% of these are Skyrim: Staves.  lol im not especially moved by the fact that she or any other one person "wants it a certain way"...thats not how wikis should operate. but wikis DO operate on group consensus, so as this seems to be the current soncensus, ill respect it until i can change it  Why try to change it if it's an established method?  Why not just let it be?  im planning on making a forum topic addressing categories & am just trying to get a feel for what the reasons are for the current system right now  done  Thank you rose  because i think the established method has flaws...do any of you edit on other wikis? <Knives182> in my experience on the zelda wikia, this isn't how categories are treated <Knives182> & that wikis in pretty good shape <HaLo2FrEeEk> So is ours... <HaLo2FrEeEk> Just because we don't do it like x wiki does it doesn't mean it's wrong. <Deyvid> 30 I'll admit, the categorization of the wiki is a mess. This is mostly due to the OblivioWiki and Skyrim Wiki merge. <Deyvid> We're doing our best to clean it up. <Deyvid> And we decided that we wanted to categorize pages this way. <Deyvid> I'm aware of how the Zelda Wiki operates; I used to edit there. <Deyvid> But, then again, we aren't the Zelda Wiki. <Rosenrot87> ^that <Rosenrot87>lol <Rosenrot87> damn tim for getting me to start doing that too <Knives182> trying to think of how to respond, 1 moment <Rosenrot87> lol <Deyvid> Your opinion isn't wasted. I think it's something to that needs/deserves evaluation form more community members. <HaLo2FrEeEk> Deyvid: Would you consider the Dragon Priest Staff (wall of flames and wall of storms) to be unique weapons? <Deyvid>HaLo2FrEeEk, is the enchantment static across play throughs? <Deyvid> Can it the item be found in static locations? <Deyvid> Then, yes. <HaLo2FrEeEk> Well yeah, but so is the one on, say, Staff of Firebolt <HaLo2FrEeEk> I'm not sure if it can <Deyvid> Staff of Firebolt can have different charges, magnitudes of damage, and found as randomized loot. <Deyvid> So, it's a radiant item. <HaLo2FrEeEk> Staff of Firebolt has a static magnitude. <Deyvid> Previously, some of us agreed that radiant items should be redirected to Enchantment Modifiers (Skyrim) <Knives182> obv were not the zelda wiki or any other wiki. im not saying we should do something a certain way just because someone else does. im saying i think we should categorize a certain way because of the reasons ive given, & simply pointing to a well-respected example of somewhere that does it like that <HaLo2FrEeEk> Knives182: As long as the right categories make it into the pages, what does it matter if its, in your opinion, over-categorized? <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, if the enchantment magnitude is static, it deserves it's own page. <Knives182> i just feel like you need to balance 1-click convenience w/ concisiveness <HaLo2FrEeEk> I just meant for the sake of categories, should I put it into Unique Weapons <Knives182> either end of the specturm is bad <HaLo2FrEeEk> I agree. At least we're not making Destruction Weapons and Restoration Spells categories. <Knives182> if we err to the extreme "more is better" side of everything, our pages would be jumbled messes...we obv value some level of concisiveness there <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, how is it acquired? Is it a boss battle one-time reward? <HaLo2FrEeEk> According to the page, it's acquired during the main quest (the wall of lightning one), the Wall of Flames one is apparently looted off of Rahgot. <HaLo2FrEeEk> So I guess yeah, they're unique then <Deyvid> brb Jimeee needs me. <Knives182> i guess i just dont understand the benefit of listing both Nords & Skyrim:Nords on the same page, when anyone browsing the Nords category will see Skyrim:Nords as a subcategory, & anyone browsing Skyrim:Nords will see Nords as a parent category <Knives182> given that, what is the point of having both on a page? <Knives182> if anyone is actually using the categories to look at articles, theyll see any sub/parent cats <HaLo2FrEeEk> Multiple-categorization is a keystone of navigability. <Knives182> how so <HaLo2FrEeEk> Also. <Deyvid> The rationale behind this type of categorization is that readers might not be aware of which game the article they're looking for appears in. <HaLo2FrEeEk> Nothing would be in the Skyrim: Nords category if we didn't put it on pages. <Deyvid> For instance, they may know that Ulfric Stormcloak is a Nord, but not know from which game. <Knives182> right, im not saying to not put it on pages <Knives182> im saying that a norsd from skyrim only needs Skyrim:Nords, not Nords as well <HaLo2FrEeEk> If someone wants to look at, for example, staves from JUST skyrim, they can look at Skyrim: Staves. <Knives182> yeah, i understand that, read above <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, what he's saying is that having Nords and Skyrim: Nords is redundant. <HaLo2FrEeEk> However, if they want to see all staves across all games, they have the Staves cat as well. <HaLo2FrEeEk> I know. <HaLo2FrEeEk> I don't think it is. <Knives182> if they dont know what game ulfric is from, all they have to do is go to his page & check his cat <Knives182> itll be Skyrim:Nords <Knives182> by that logic, having both is actually more confusing for them 18 < Knives182 >  18  if they see the Nords cat 1st & just click on that 18 < Knives182 >  18  being the inexperienced user that they are 18 < Knives182 >  18  basically a category like Nords, similar to a category like Content, can just be a master category that only contains other categories 18 < Knives182 >  18  thats actually a good point...where Content & other big cats like that are concerned, were already using this system 18 < Knives182 >  18  like, does Azura's Star really need to be under Skyrim:Misc, Skyrim:Items, Miscellaneous, Items, Skyrim:Daedric Artifacts, Skyrim:Artifacts, Daedric Artifacts, Artifacts, Quest Items, Unique Items, Skyrim: Quest Items, Skyrim: Unique Items, & god knows what else? 18 < Knives182 >  18  doesn't that seem exessive to anyone? 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  It doesn't need to be in either misc. cat. 18 < Knives182 >  18  why 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Because it doesn't. 18 < Knives182 >   18  ... 18 < Knives182 >  18  lol 31 < Deyvid >  30 Another editor approached me earlier about the issue of Misc/Miscallenous. 18 < Knives182 >  18  thats not any kind of an answer man ? 19 Jimeee  (Jimeee@xertion-6i2.ok2.49.62.IP) has joined #TESWiki 22*  26Akatosh  gives channel operator status to 26 Jimeee 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  So now you're saying that you WANT extra categories? 31 < Deyvid >  30 hey Jimeee. 18 < Knives182 >  18  i dont see anything wrong w/ the category...theyre items labeled as miscellaneous in-game from what i understand. but misc aside, thats 2 cats down from a list of...11 18 < Jimeee >  18  omg 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Sup jimeee 18 < Jimeee >  18  somehow i got through 18 < Jimeee >  18  hi halo 21 < Jimeee >   21 DEYVID!!!!! 31 < Deyvid >  30 Let me lay down one thing really quickly. 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Awwww 21 < HaLo2FrEeEk >   21 "hi halo" "DEYVID!!!!!!" 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  :'( 18 < Rosenrot87 >   18  lol 31 < Deyvid >   30 "Misc" is the official, in-game title for "junk" items. 18 < Jimeee >   18  haha 31 < Deyvid >   30 The category "items" uses a term we've coined.  18 < Jimeee >   18  HALO!!!!! 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >   18  It's actually the record name in the data files 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >   18  JIMEEE!!!!!!! 18 < Jimeee >   18  <3 31 < Deyvid >   30 The argument in that situation is: should we use in-game names or ones of our own contrivance.  18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >   18  Lessthanthree 18 < Knives182 >   18  i would think in-game wherever possible 31 < Deyvid >   30 One editor expressed that the we should use our own terms. I do not agree with this. 31 < Deyvid >   30 Agreed. 18 < Jimeee >   18  May I barge into this convo about categorisation? 31 < Deyvid >   30 By all means. 18 < Kaishiro >   18  URDOIN IT WRONG ? Kaishiro  vanishes 18 < Jimeee >  18  I assume you ere discussing Skyrin: Items? 31 < Deyvid >  30 I was, yes. 18 < Knives182 >  18  not really 18 < Knives182 >  18  thats kind of a side topic 31 < Deyvid >  30 But the topic regards categories in general. 31 < Deyvid >  30 ^ 18 < Jimeee >  18  Well cats is my favorite topic ? Rosenrot87 facedesks 18 < Kaishiro >  18  I like tlaking about pussy too 31 < Deyvid >  30 facepalmjesus.jpg 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Kaishiro: ME TOO! 18 < Knives182 >  18  im arguing that, for instance, Greta's page doesnt need coth the Nords category & the Skyrim:Nords category 18 < Jimeee >  18  Right, I have read the convo Knives had on roses talk page and its an excellent point 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  I have a pussy! 31 < Deyvid >  30 Rosenrot87, I second that motion. 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  It's black, and hairy 18 < Knives182 >  18  wtf dudes 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  i have a different kind... 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Indeed, 31 < Deyvid >  30 Agreed. Let's maintain focus on this issue. 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Blame kai. 18 < Jimeee >  18  please! 18 < Kaishiro >  18  NOPE.avi. Blame Jimeee 18 < Jimeee >  18  we need a community agreement so we can all go forth and categorise!! 18 < Jimeee >  18  dont blame me!? 18 < Knives182 >  18  so yeah, i think having Nords & Skyrim: Nords is redundant...remove Nords from Greta's page, since Skyrim:Nords is listed on the Nords category page anyway 18 < Kaishiro >  18  You brought up the conversation of cats, that' 18 < Kaishiro >  18  that's what I was tlaking about 18 < Jimeee >  18  it needs brought up! 18 < Kaishiro >  18  I know! ? Rosenrot87 sighs 18 < Jimeee >  18  i love this! 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  i don't 18 < Kaishiro >   18  me too! 18 < Jimeee >  18  i do so much 18 < Jimeee >  18  cats cats cats 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Guys, Rosenrot87 is gonna die. 18 < Kaishiro >  18  and on that note, I'm leaving. g'night. 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Soon, if this doesn't get resolved. 31 < Deyvid >  30 gn Kaishiro. 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  jimeee i am not amused 18 < Knives182 >  18  look, the "i want it this way, this is my baby" attitude is not a wiki way of thinking 18 < Jimeee >  18  so Knives makes a great point about cats having sub categories - but the problem is we are too far down the rabbit hole 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Knives182: you're doing the same thing though 18 < Kaishiro >  18  badumtss 18 < Kaishiro >  18  anyways night, for real. 18 < Knives182 >  18  no, im actually explaining the logic behind my argument, & attempting to have a constructive conversation 18 < Knives182 >  18  you recently told me something didnt need to have a certain category because "it just didnt" 18 < Knives182 >  18  im interested in what jimees saying 18 < Knives182 >  18  what do you mean by "too far down the rabbit hole"? 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Of course you are, because he's agreeing with you. 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  People tend to want to listen to people who agree with them and want to ignore people who disagree. 18 < Knives182 >  18  im interested in what youre saying too if youll actually explain yourself 18 < Jimeee >  18  well take locations in skyrim for example - all skyrim locations have a ton of cats attached to them. 18 < Knives182 >  18  indeed 18 < Jimeee >  18  but we also have sub categories for these locations like camps, caves etc 18 < Jimeee >  18  so i originally thought it might be tidy to not have "Skyrim: Location" or "Location" in a page like "Skytemple Ruins" 31 < Deyvid >  30 I understand that logic. 18 < Knives182 >  18  i sense a "but" coming on...but do continue 31 < Deyvid >  30 In this scenario, Locations and Skyrim: Locations would be master categories. 31 < Deyvid >  30 With no articles in them 18 < Jimeee >  18  anf instread have "Skyrim: Ruins" - then in the ruins cat link that to "Skyrim: Locations" --and THEN link Sktrin Locations to Locations 18 < Knives182 >  18  thats exactly what im saying 18 < Knives182 >  18  & have been saying 18 < Knives182 >  18  or at least trying to 18 < Jimeee >   18  and yes i agree with you - but we have so many cats now that its a massive clean up job 18 < Jimeee >  18  and i dont think many admins would agree 21 < Knives182 >   21 why though? if you & deyvid both seem to feel that this is the better way to do things 18 < Jimeee >  18  because it seems insane to remofe Skyrim Locations from a location ;page 18 < Jimeee >  18  I would totally do it if people agreed 31 < Deyvid >  30 Knives182, I wasn't advocating this position, merely explaining it. 18 < Knives182 >  18  eh...it's really not insane, for the reasons you just laid out 21 < Knives182 >   21 ok, sorry deyvid 31 < Deyvid >  30 However, I'm willing to re-evaluate my current stance. 31 < Deyvid >  30 I care more about what the community wants than my own personal opinions. 18 < Jimeee >  18  Look at this page - it makes me want to cry: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Skyrim:_Locations 18 < Jimeee >  18  there is no way to find anything unless you scroll to "S" page. 18 < Knives182 >  18  yeah man 31 < Deyvid >  30 90% of the information in the category needs to be deleted. 31 < Deyvid >  30 Which I did. 18 < Knives182 >  18  because it's cluttered w/ a bunch of pages that belong to location subcategories 18 < Jimeee >  18  It's actually why i made this page to make things a little cleared http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Locations_%28Skyrim%29 18 < Knives182 >  18  if all of them had SKyrim:Locations removed from them 31 < Deyvid >  30 Not what I was referring to. I was written like an article. 18 < Knives182 >  18  & kept more specific location cats 18 < Knives182 >  18  then this page would be totally navigable 31 < Deyvid >  30 Most of these categories are added via the infobox template. 31 < Deyvid >  30 If we signed this newly proposed method into wikilaw, all we'd need to do is remove the categories from the templates. 18 < Jimeee >  18  Ideally the Skyrim:Locations cat would only list locations sub cats like camps caves ruins etc. that is all. 31 < Deyvid >  30 Just letting you guys know that a category-shift wouldn't be too difficult to execute. 31 < Deyvid >  30 Jimeee, I hear you. 18 < Jimeee >  18  convincing the community is the hard part. 21 < Knives182 >   21 well, deyvid, you seemed easily convinced enough by jimee 18 < Jimeee >  18  I didn't speak up as I didn't think anyone would support my suggestion 18 < Knives182 >  18  honestly, i think if a veteran advocates it, it has a good chance--the logic is sound after all 18 < Knives182 >  18  its just no one wants to listen to the new guy 31 < Deyvid >  30 I'm not saying I'm convinced. I'm a neutral party in this, for now. 18 < Knives182 >  18  whos messing w/ the status quo 18 < Knives182 >  18  which is frustrating, btw 18 < Jimeee >  18  we should have agreed upon this before the game was out 21 < Jimeee >   21 but me and deyvid only joined in november 18 < Knives182 >  18  ah i see 18 < Knives182 >  18  well, i think if you linked to that test page, ppl would see how much better the bigger cat pages would be if they noly listed subcategories 31 < Deyvid >  30 Might I also add that the method of categorization both of you are suggesting WAS the method of standard before Skyrim's release. 18 < Jimeee >  18  and along with the oblivion wiki merge it was a big mess. ? HaLo2FrEeEk sighs 18 < Knives182 >  18  ok, so it even has precedent 31 < Deyvid >  30 Jimeee, this is also true. 18 < Knives182 >  18  seems like theres a pretty strong argument for this 18 < Jimeee >  18  how did it come to this then? 18 < Jimeee >  18  who started adding random cat to pages 18 < Knives182 >  18  the only ones against are that its "too difficult to institute" or that "this is the way things are done" 18 < Jimeee >  18  and it began a trend 31 < Deyvid >  30 Jimeee, well, on another Wiki I administrate. Our current method of categorization is also used. 31 < Deyvid >  30 Plus, Timeoin was adding these boarder categories. 18 < Jimeee >  18  broad cats is suicide. 21 < HaLo2FrEeEk >   21 Deyvid, you just cannot spell, can you. 31 < Deyvid >  30 Eventually, the admins and others agreed with the trunk-branch categorization. 31 < Deyvid >  30 broader* 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  :P 18 < Jimeee >  18  for a series this big? 31 < Deyvid >  30 I blame poor finger muslce-memory. 31 < Deyvid >  30 My point exactly, Jimeee. 31 < Deyvid >  30 The other wiki I edited could support this type of categorization. 31 < Deyvid >  30 There were only three games. 18 < Jimeee >  18  like we just talked about today "Swords" as a cat in not enough. 31 < Deyvid >  30 Not to mention. It's no longer a wikia wiki, so sub-categories actually show up on the category page. 18 < Jimeee >  18  Exactly dayvid! 18 < Knives182 >  18  rosenrot, u still there? does any of this make sense to you? 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  She's crying. 18 < Jimeee >  18  smaller wiki would be ok - but elder scrolls!? 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  In a hole 18 < Jimeee >  18  hahaha 18 < Jimeee >  18  she works hard, but this must be hell. 18 < Knives182 >  18  ? 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  She's worked ridiculously hard, and now everything is going to change, she wants to stop editing, felling like her work is being completely superceded. 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  feeling* 18 < Knives182 >  18  if you dont want your work to be changed 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  over the past 2 weeks you wouldn't believe how many categories i've fixed, it's all i've done 18 < Knives182 >  18  dont edit a collaborative wiki 18 < Knives182 >  18  ^ 18 < Jimeee >  18  Dude, I've worked hard too - I've been editing cats since November!!! 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  not saying you haven't 18 < Knives182 >   18  we should all be committed to making the wiki the best it can be, not preserving pet projects 18 < Jimeee >  18  i and even i agree that all my edits can change for the greated good 31 < Deyvid >  30 Off topic: Who's keeping an eye on the RC? 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Knives182: Without sounding rude, we've established our current system, then one person, you, doesn't like it and decides that we have to change it. Why are you being any different than we are? 21 < HaLo2FrEeEk >   21 I am, deyvid 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  but a change like you guys want, a change that big, not just the fact that it'd be confusing to me, it'd cause me to scream in frustration constantly and i can't deal with that much heartburn, so i'd likely quit edits 31 < Deyvid >  30 HaLo2FrEeEk, thank you. 18 < Knives182 >  18  because your system has some serious flaws 18 < Jimeee >  18  It's not the case of doesnt like it Halo. 18 < Knives182 >  18  & is only being protected 18 < Knives182 >  18  because tis the status quo 18 < Knives182 >  18  i havent heard any good reason of why to preserve the current system 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  not a threat or anything, just saying that's what would likely happen 31 < Deyvid >  30 Knives182, I can easily our current method spiraling out of controlling. Creating a snow-ball effect. 18 < Jimeee >  18  it's not a preferance thing 31 < Deyvid >  30 What's to stop us from adding "In-universe articles" or even, god forbid, "Content" to all articles. 18 < Knives182 >  18  rosen, if ur gonna threaten to quit editing because something happens u dont like... 18 < Jimeee >  18  Halo, its what's the right way or the not so right way of doing things 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  i just said not a threat 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  NOT A THREAT 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  read would you? 18 < Knives182 >  18  thats melodramatic stuff thats totally unneeded on any wiki 18 < Rosenrot87 >  18  <Rosenrot87> not a threat or anything, just saying that's what would likely happen 18 < Jimeee >  18  Rose dont worry so much 18 < Knives182 >  18  obv the wiki would be ill-served by your departure, but thats your choice 18 < Jimeee >  18  Look at all the edits i've done so far - much of my categoriation will we wiped but I dont care as it makes a better wiki, 18 < Knives182 >  18  we cant make decisions based on how one person is going to react to them 18 < Knives182 >  18  this is basic stuff 18 < Jimeee >  18  yes. 18 < HaLo2FrEeEk >  18  Isn't that what we're doing right now?

'''Editor's note: Log is incomplete. I stopped here for unknown reasons.'''