Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150906225651

College Mage: Ferris wrote: If he wasnt already bitter towards the Imperials, why did he specifically ask for free worship of Talos? Why was it ever even brought up at all? It seems deliberate. When I said it was Illegal, I dont mean Ulfric saving everyone, but the fact he wouldnt hand over control to the Empire. Technically the Empire owns Skyrim, so when they showed up and he refused to hand over control, that'd be like If i changes the locks on my house and refused to let the landlord in. Ulfric making any demands and refusing to hand over the city makes it illegal. I'm not saying it's right or wrong, but by definition, Ulfric's militia would be no better then bandits capturing a city.

Maybe because Ulfric is a faithful Nord, who wanted to help his people(not to mention his fellow comrades from the Great War) so they can worship Talos again? You say he did all this to agitate against the Empire. But what if he did this because he felt sorry and heartbroken over those who fought and died for pretty much nothing? Ulfric wanted a sanctuary for Talos worshipers. But how to do that? He saw an opportunity when he was asked by the Jarl of Markarth to reclaim his hold. And he probably assumed that the Empire wouldn't mind either, since the Nords are their allies and that they would stand up to them, if needed. Like I said, a very naive and even stupid idea.

As for the reclaiming of Markarth, I dont see it as an illegal act. The Reach belonged to the Jarl at that time. He lost his property and contracted Ulfric to reclaim it(like when people contract the Companions to reclaim a stolen item). Now, the Empire could hardly ask the independent Reachmen to hand their lands over to the Empire. But when the Nords retook it, the Empire thought that the Nords, being citizens of the Empire, would HAVE to give the Hold to the Empire.

Maybe they thought they could keep their word? I dunno... But also, when someone takes a hostage and demands a Helicopter, even when you see the Helicopter, you KNOW they arent leaving in that helicopter... By which I mean, we both agree Ulfric was naive to think the Empire would have stuck to that.

True to that. But if the Empire really believed that they would get away with it, then they were just as naive and stupid as Ulfric. But I doubt it. They probably knew, but it was easier and more profitable to simply "play both sides". That way they could easily occupy the city with Legionnaires and then surround the Nord militia to arrest them. A cunning, yet deceitful, strategy.

Well, like I previously mentioned, Had the Empire simply let the incident go, it sets a dangerous precedent, it says the Empire will allow anyone with force to come, claim a city, make demands, and the Empire will listen. What then stops the forsworn from attempting the same thing to gain an exchange of their King from the mine? But to make matters worse it was Ulfric, the son of a Jarl, who did save everyone, it was a delicate situation that admittedly could have been handled better by both sides, but I still personally blame Ulfric, as the Empire is acting the same way ANY sort of leader power would have acted. Ulfric was instigating a fight when there didn't need to be one. Hand control back to the Empire, let them be the ones to stop Talos worship, and remind everyone how much better it was when Ulfric was watching over them. He could have let the Empire make enemies of themselves without having to DO anything.

If bandits were to take over a Hold, THAT would be illegal. Since it wouldn't be done under the authority of the owner of that hold. Ulfric didn't seem to be against the idea of the Empire being in charge, thus why I dont think he harbored a greater hatred the Empire at that time. If he did, he would say: "You lost the city and we retook it all by ourselves. So its all ours. Now sod off." But if they did give it to the Empire and they enforced the WGC, Ulfric's plan of a sanctuary for Talos worshipers would be ruined and it would mean Ulfric and his men fought yet another war all for nothing.

As for the Empire acting like any ruler, I disagree. Whether or not Ulfric deliberately instigated a war, he did prove a point; that the Empire are willing to sacrifice their allies to save themselves. See, when the Thalmor found out and said "cease the Talos worship and arrest the militia, or else...", what should the Empire have done? The armies of the Dominion and the Empire were tied after the war. Both were unfit to continue the battle. The Empire could have easily said back: "Oh yeah? Then come fight us, if you think you have a chance". The Thalmor would have to back down(for the time being) and simply allow it too. Because they weren't in the position to make threats. What happened instead, the Empire caved in over the threats and thus revealing that they were, in fact, not nations of equal strength. When a nation folds itself over the first sign of danger from a rival nation, it eliminates all competition between them. The Empire didn't NEED to act that way. But they did, out of weakness. Thus why Ulfric claims that the Empire is too weak to rule Skyrim.

Here we get a bit too far into speculation. The major factor is the Emperor possibly being dead (or definitely). Who's to say the next in line will be as "spineless" (for lack of a better term) as Titus was? But that aside, If the terms of an alliance were "and then you help me take out the dominion" yes, I could see them throwing a fit, but just political alliances or trade supply alliances don't spark red flags for them to have justifiable cause to do anything about it. While the Empire has the primary concern of maintaining the peace, I don't believe they would allow the Dominion to tell them who they could and could not make relations with, that oversteps the bounds of the treaty. It is a Cold war state after all, even with the Thalmor putting pressure on the Empire, they are in the same boat, they don't want to go to war yet either, they just want to cause trouble. Its not as if they have 3 times the forces and are just messing with the empire before total

I will refer to my statement above. The Empire has pretty much already displayed their submission to the Thalmor. It's all about what signals you send to your opponent. Instead of standing strong and telling the Thalmor: "you can't dictate our business". Instead they said, through their actions; "we will do whatever you ask, just no war pls". If threats of war made the Empire bend, what makes you think the Thalmor won't use those threats again? And why would the Empire suddenly stand up against them? I would agree with you, but the Empire has shot themselves in the foot. It might be a deliberate action to make the Thalmor overconfident. But if it is indeed a ruse, they need to keep it up until the next war begins. So if the Thalmor says that they can't trade with their enemies(which they might do, to cripple the Empire even further), chances are that they might do it. That could be a reason why the Empire desperately wants Skyrim to remain a part of the Empire. Because they realize that if they object to the Thalmor, they will have to be on their own. Just like with the Redguards.

I can agree with you that the next Emperor might push the Empire back to(or at least get close to) its glory days. Or maybe not. Only time will tell. But that's speculating a bit too far in the future.

I will say this, IN skyrim, there wasn't really any dominion to "keep fighting" So I can see where them saying "we don't agree to these terms" doesn't amount to much. But once you had actual enforcers there, AND you had a militia, AND a seat of power, why was the militia used to fight the Empire? Why kill the king? why siege and destroy the very land you claim to want to protect? How many citizens die when Ulfric attempts to take Whiterun? or when he takes Solitude? So sure he couldnt outright reject the terms and keep fighting the war when it wasn't in Skyrim, but once you had their Justicars there taking people in the night, Ulfric should have met with those Jarls (half of skyrim) who agreed with him and refused to let them roam free in Skyrim (as per part of the treaty) If the High King was still alive, and half your Jarls are refusing the terms of the treaty I honestly think Torygg would have HAD to tell the Empire "sorry, we're seceding".

Well, I still think that if Ulfric were trying to battle the Thalmor in Skyrim, the Empire would have to take the Thalmor’s side. Once more, they have shown to be submissive to them(sorry for beating this dead horse over and over). If the Empire wants to object to the Thalmor, they would want to do it on their terms. Not on Ulfrics terms. And the High King being bought by the Empire would take their side as well. As for your question: “ How many citizens die when Ulfric attempts to take Whiterun? Or when he takes Solitude?” In Whiterun, only one. In Solitude, none. Soldiers don’t count as civilians. Unless you meant something else. The only confirmed casualty of the war is Severio Pelagia(divines bless his soul), but I would say that’s still pretty good. It could have been a lot worse.

Well for me we still see plenty of Talos Shrines, such as the temple in markarth, the one sin the homes, etc, But also as you and I already established the Empire isnt above saying one thing and doing another such as promising a Talos ban and then not doing it. Or doing the bare minimum (like removing the shrine from churches in major cities) and claiming they've banned it. But we certainly have no evidence of the Empire ever arresting anyone for it.

I have a feeling that the only reason the Talos shrine in Markarth still stands, is because the Thalmor has such a strong control over it that they can use the shrine to bait Talos worshippers into a trap. But thing is, even if the Empire doesn’t directly aid the Thalmor in eradicating Talos worship, they do provide indirect help in form of free access in Skyrim, their own embassy and even a military fort. Northwatch Keep has Imperial banners all over it. The Thalmor Justiciars mention that “by Imperial Law, we are allowed to do whatever we wish”. The only reason the Thalmor can do all this is thanks from the backings of the Empire. Indirect help is just as bad as direct help. Also, it reminds me, when you arrest Ogmund in Markarth, he will relocate to the local Imperial Legates room(possibly chained to the wall). While the Thalmor do their thing during the day, the Legate becomes like a watcher for Ogmund. I guess that’s one way of helping the Thalmor.

I Agree and disagree here, I mean when I hear people talk about the Septim's they really just mean Tiber. I mean Pelagius, was murdered by the dark brotherhood in the temple of the one for not being as good as Tiber was.. then it was Kintyra, who didnt seem to have any problems at all. same with Uriel I, no real issues to really say they were good or bad. But then We get to Uriel II, whose rule was described as being "cursed with blights, plagues and insurrections" He also threw the Empire into massive debt, that his son Pelagius II had to clean up after. Then there was Antiochus, who might as well been the definition of decadence. then Kintyra II with Uriel III starting a coup, Cephorus spent most of his time fighting in the war of the red diamond that started back when Kintyra ruled, followed by Magnus who spent most of HIS time punishing people for the War of the red diamond. then came Pelagius III or "Pelagius the mad" followed by Katariah, his wife, a dunmer, and marked as being "the true decline" and on and on and on and on it goes. By comparrison the Mede Dynasty just conquered the Imperial city, and then Titus Mede II inherited what was left of the Empire. Bottom line is, the Septim Dynasty wasn't perfect, or even a perfect example of how the Empire should be run. Titus Mede I and II both were doomed from the start since the Dominion was making their moves well before the Medes appeared on the scene. The Septims just held together the name really, not their legacy.

I didn't mean to imply that the Septim Dynasty was perfect. Its wasn't. But what they DID, was keeping the Empire together. That is what ultimately matters. That is the very core of Empires. There can be troubles, even war, but as long as the provinces stand together, the Empire will still stand tall.

I defer to Balgruuf on this point when he states: "Mutual advantage! Any fool can see that. For centuries, we have benefited from the Empire's protection, and prosperous trade with the south. In exchange, the people of Cyrodiil sleep peacefully, knowing their northern border is guarded by the fiercest warriors in all Tamriel." To me it sounds like Cyrodiil mostly uses Skyrim for its warriors, while Skyrim uses the Empire for trade. If thats to be taken at face value, Skyrim not part of the Empire means Cyrodiil loses troops, and Skyrim loses much of its trade. Again I understand not all trade would just up and disappear, but when a nation becomes independent new deals and agreements need to be made, possibly new taxes added, etc etc, it wouldnt be so easy as just "oh you can keep making your usual trades, we just dont support your country in war".

Well… I suppose I can’t argue with that. The Stromcloak Rebellion doesn’t come without a price. I am well aware. The question is if it is worth it. Without the comfort of Imperial coin and goods, it will be leaner times for Skyrim. But that doesn’t mean that the economics of Skyrim can’t move on from their depression and get better. I guess that is why people tend to pick the Empire over the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloaks talks a lot about “rebuilding Skyrim”, but it is never mentioned how. The Empires intentions sound at least a bit clearer. For a lot of people, it will be like choosing between “risk” or “safe”, even though that doesn’t necessarily have to be the case.

The Dominion owned Cyodiil for a while. While it didnt end that way, they did it. if it was done once, and the Empire hasnt had too much time to recover, it could be done again. This time they dont need to worry about splitting their troops to Hammerfell, OR (if they no longer hold Skyrim) worrying the Nords will come swooping in. Skyrim will have to go south into Cyrodiil to fight them eventually anyway should the Empire fall to the elves again, either that or allow the enemy to sit at their doorstep, or worse yet, allow them into Skyrim to fight them. But if you believe they'll be taking the fight to the elves anyways, the safer bet is fighting them far from Skyrim, not letting them get closer. What are they doing otherwise but sitting and waiting for the elves to come to them? (which doesnt sound very Nord-like at all).

The Nords can still swoop in. And so can the Redguards. Who’s going to stop them if Cyrodiil becomes besieged and they have to pull away troops for the war? And, as you said, the Thalmor came close to owning the Empire, but was saved by retreating into Skyrim. Obviously, they won’t make the same mistake again. If Skyrim falls to the Thalmor, not only will all escape routes be cut off, but they will be surrounded from south and north. And Cyrodiil will be doomed. Having an army posted in Skyrim will still benefit them more than if they pull them away.