Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-27007772-20140611204941/@comment-26356342-20150714220757

Welcome back Ottoman Hold! Happy to see you return. mentioning Maven has reminded me Stormcloak supporters often forget about the Silver-bloods, who are in my opinion far worse. I'm going to do as the OP had done and do a breakdown of the Jarls. Stormcloak supporters, you should know who you are leaving in charge of Skyrim... and as I have said before, even if you don't like the Empire, Skyrim is better off with Imperials in charge, even if it's just till we all defeat the Thalmor. While I am going into with with a bit of Bias, I'm doing my best to set it aside in order to make these points. So before you go writing it off as propoganda, I'd ask you really read it first. This will be long so, strap in.  Legend: (S) Stormcloak / (I) Imperial (if it wasnt already obvious)     Hold: The Pale | Capitol: DawnStar | Jarl: Skald (S) vs. Brina (I)    ~Skald has successfully been in charge of Dawnstar for over 35 years. So he has the expierence, however with recent events going on, he has become completely blind to anything else other than the Civil War. Blind hatred combined with a lack of foresight, is not good for The Pale. On top of the civil War, the Dragons have returned, known for snatching up people out in the open, and the Jarl is spending ALL of his resources/money supporting the Stormcloaks. He goes so far as to suggest sending every single man woman and child to fight the "good fight" He even openly admits that if he didn't need the lumber, he would conscript the miners to join the stormcloaks. There's no asking who they want to fight for, or even if they want to fight. He would just send them to Ulfric. looking at his bounty quest, the Empire told him not to mess with the Giants, but he hates the giants, so he sends you to kill one as a means of sending a message to the rest of them. Giants in Skyrim appear to have a "don't mess with me and I dont mess with you" attitude, he would instigate a fight with the Giants just for petty vengeance, that's his Pride getting in the way of being a good leader. Talking with the citizens of his hold, even the nicest thing that could be said of him, is said sarcastically; "That would be Skald the Elder. He's been running Dawnstar ever since he was a boy, and he never lost that brat's attitude. Turned on the Empire first chance he got. Now we're all part of this rebellion."  ~Brina is a Strong Nord woman, veteran of the great war, and a proven leader. If appointed Jarl she ackowledges the threat of Dragon attacks, has given the guards standing order to be ready with buckets, to be ready for fire. She even shares the same sentiments about the Empire not being what it used to be; "This rebellion in Skyrim is one problem, but solving it won't fix everything. But that's the kind of talk an old warhorse shouldn't be making. Don't worry. I have my problems with the Empire, but I'm still a soldier first. We'll keep peace and order in Dawnstar." This one quote speaks volumes on how she is Level-headed, sees the broader picture of the real problems the Empire faces, and How she cares specifically for the Hold/Dawnstar. She prepares the City in case of Stormcloak attacks, and even settles things with the Court Wizard making sure Madena understands she isnt seen as a walking weapon, ASKING (not conscripting) if she would be willing to heal injured people.  Of the 2 Choices, I'd have to say Brina is clearly better. She obviously cares for her people, and the wellbeing of Dawnstar. Skald on the other hand is willing to just throw men at the Empire even if it means they all die together. Is this the attitude you want when it comes to fighting the Thalmor? Just throw men at them till one side is completely dead?    Hold: Falkreath | Capitol: Falkreath | Jarl: Dengeir (S) vs. Siddgeir (I)    ~Dengeir is at best "difficult" and at worst, outright paranoid, going so far as to believe his own servant Tekla and his former housecarl are Imperial informants. His own brother Thadgeir will even warn you to take his brother's words "With a grain of salt" implying he knows how paranoid his brother sounds. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Siddgeir isn't a shining example of how a Jarl should act. He cares more for the perks of the posistion, rather than actually running his hold. This leaves the actual running of the hold in the hands of Nenya the Steward, and Helvard the Housecarl. So at the very best, he's an absent leader but does listen to reason. Nenya does do a good job of seeing to the needs of the people, while Helvard see the guards are prepared. He is a spoiled brat, to say the least. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Of the two, it's a bit of a hard call, but I will go with Siddgeir, not because I'm an imperial supporter, but because we actually see him dealing with court, even if it's just to say taxes are late. He at least knows whats going on within the hold, where as with Dengeir, he spends most of him time drinking, and trying to root out non-existant Imperial spies, making enemies of close friends. With Either Jarl, Nenya ultimately does the most work for the Hold, and should be the Jarl, but the lesser of two evils in this case is Siddgeir. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Hold: The Reach | Capitol: Markarth | Jarl: Thongvor (S) vs. Igmund (I)  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~As I stated above, I personally feel the Silver-bloods are far worse than the Black-briars, but lets set that aside a moment and focus on Thongvor specifically. At first meeting him, he's arguing with Brother Verulus, and like with all the Stormcloaks, when he doesnt get his way, he claims it's because the brother is an Imperial supporter. If appointed Jarl, he has a very "Jarl Skald" attitude when it comes to dealing with forsworn, Rather then delicately dealing with the situation to avoid un-needed death, Thongvor openly wnats to violently supress them, and force them into working the mines. I totally understand the hatred here for the forsworn, specifically with this Capitol's history, but Violent supression seems like it would do more harm than good in the long run, and surprise surprise, they'd be working in his family's mine making them more money. Thus is the Stormcloak way, advocating freedom while supressing everyone who isnt a Nord. I apologize, I've gone bias again, let me reel it back in. In short, he is seen as a very violent man. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Igmund seems to understand at present the Thalmor are using the WGC to call the shots. While he seems to lement the decision to allow Ulfric to be arrested after the Markarth inccident, he understands it was the best call to make for Skyrim, as they couldnt afford a war with the Thalmor. Even tho Forsworn killed his father, he isnt going around looking for Forsworn to kill or send to the mines. This all tells me he's level headed and doesnt allow personal feels effect how he rules his Hold. Some could view this as weakness, but I see honor in how he's ruling, even with the Silver-bloods "secretly" ruling in the background. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Of the two, we have one violent man, who's family bought the guards, have a forced labor camp, and are aiding in the conspiricy of the forsworn uprising. The other is an honorable man who does what is best for Skyrim. No contest, Igmund is way better. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Hold: Hjaalmarch | Capitol: Morthal | Jarl: Idgrod (I) vs. Sorli (S)  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Jarl Idgrod could probably be described as the Imperial version of Dengeir, as both come accross a little crazy. Unlike Dengeir however, Idgrod actually seems to have visions. But this has caused a rift between the townsfolk and herself, as evidenced by the rabble out front of the Jarls home when you arrive. I do like her answer when asked who she sides with, "I stand with Morthal" So at least we know she cares for the Hold and her people, and at least with dialog between the her husband, and with her Housecarl, she appears to be a capable leader. The real issue here is Nords typically see anything relating to magic as bad/evil. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Sorli from the outset appears like she would be the better of the two. She is a Strong, accomplished Nord, hard worker, and used to giving orders. A natural leader. The real issues come to light when she becomes Jarl, as it becomes evident she doesnt really care about the hold, so much as she cares about her new posistion. I suppose this would make her the Stormcloak Siddgeir. It's a bit strange someone who works so closely to Bryling, and specifically ships ore to Solitude (presumably for more weapons to supply the Imperials) would align themselves with Ulfric. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Of these two, I'll start with Jorgen's quote when asked about Sorli; "We've gone from a Jarl lost in her own head to a Jarl that cares for nothing but herself. Lot of good that does us." and "The world's going mad, and our Jarl doesn't care. She's only in it for herself. If she's the best Ulfric has to offer, maybe we might've been better off with the Imperials." My personal opinion is aligned with Jorgen's on this one, the Hold is better off with Idgrod. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Hold: The Rift | Capitol: Riften | Jarl: Laila (S) vs. Maven (I)  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~When first entering Riften, right from the gate it's established the Thieves guild has a hold over the city. Laila however is easily convinced there is no problem, or at the very least it's under control. Even tho every other time we visit Riften someone is getting mowed down with arrows after being caught stealing. NOW to be fair, Maven does have a hand in seeing that the guild is "protected" from the Jarl. But really, theres plenty of townsfolk who openly speak out against the Thieves Guild, so I'd say half the problem is Maven, the other Half is Laila's naivete. For all you who dislike Maven, Laila WILLINGLY gives her seal to Maven, claiming she's one of the few people the Jarl can trust. Even if it's Ulfric stormcloak asking for your seal, you don't even hand that out to anyone. Lastly, whle she is a supporter of the Stormcloaks she admits that she doesn't have much faith in Ulfric himself. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Maven has been running Riften, using Laila as a puppet. I know a lot of people, Imperial and Stormcloak supporters alike hate her, I get it... She has a mafia style of dealing with problems, she's done shadey business deals, she's traded favors, She threatens people, and passed coin to the "right people" she's built her own empire, similar to the Silver-bloods. Theres no denying she's not a "good person" but when it comes to running The Rift, a place that has been known for its thieves, she's the right person for that job. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">This is a bit of an easier call, as it's hardly even a choice... Do you want the puppet or the puppert master runing the hold? one way or another, Maven runs The Rift, like it or not. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Hold: Whiterun Hold | Capitol: Whiterun | Jarl: Balgruuf (I) vs. Vignar (S)  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> ~Balgruuf happens to be one of my favorite Jarls. For most of us he may have been the first Jarl we meet in the game. To me, he is what every Jarl should be. He cares for his hold and his people, he keeps an open mind, but retains his Nordic pride. He still worships Talos, respects Nordic customs, and hates the Thalmor as much as any Stormcloak. Like Idgrod, he will say his loyalty is to Whiterun, not specifically the Empire or the Stormcloaks. He also is like Brina, in that he has preperations made in the event of a Dragon attack. (side note: planning for dragon attacks seems to be an Imperial thing) His steward is an Imperial, his Housecarl a Dunmer, and he is pretty open when concerning Magic, making sure his court wizard's research is well supplied, and keeping him close on hand in the event of a dragon attack. He truly represents everything that Skyrim needs. I'll end here with a quote of his during the Diplomatic Immunity quest; "These Thalmor might not like to admit it, but as long as the Empire has Skyrim, the Empire has strength." <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Vignar Gray-mane represents everything the Nords used to be/currently are. He's quite proud of the "old ways" and refuses to accept change at all. He is a very honorable man, and I respect him, but he seems to have the same flaws that Skald has, in that his pride blinds him, and that he has no foresight. For evidence of this just look at his attitude towards the Companions. He acts like he's a much better warrior then any of them, and will even go so far as to suggest you not join them because they aren't how they once were. I could speak volumes on how it doesnt make sense that someone so stuck in the past would dislike one of the oldest (if not THE oldest) factions in Skyrim. I also find it hard to believe the good people of Whiterun would follow/take orders from someone who assisted in killing members of their families. So I guess next time someone wants to argue about bounty posters not reflecting realism, maybe he could discuss the fact Vignar assisted in the sacing of a city where is own family has lived for years, indirectly causing the deaths of family friends and loved ones. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Of the two, it comes down to either choosing a man who is progressive, or choosing one who is set in his ways. The obvious choice is Balgruuf the Greater, a man who puts the needs of his people and his hold, and more importantly Skyrim above all else. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Hold: Winterhold | Capitol: Winterhold | Jarl: Korir (S) vs. Kraldar (I)  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Well this should be rather quick. Korir wants to take the one remaining thing left in  Winterhold and destroy/ban it. (Side note: why is is Stormcloak supporters always appear close minded?) I Understand the distrust of magic, and I understand how Nords feel about magic, especially after the Oblivion Crisis and the Great War, but outright eradication of mages in Skyrim is a HUGE mistake. Especially with the "Great War 2: Even Greater" on the way, removing the one force who could assist (even if it was enchanting, or healing) puts Skyrim at a huge disadvantage. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Kraldar have very open minded views on magic, and believes the mages when they say they had nothing to do with the great collapse. He understands the need for the mages, and even understand thats the whole reason anyone even comes to Winterhold to begin with. Instead of sitting around bitter at the mages he appears hopefull in that he will eventually get Winterhold rebuilt. Where have I heard this respect and tollerance for magic before?.... it's on the tip of my tounge... hm... oh yeah that's right, Tsun. "Well met, mage of Skyrim. The Nords may have forgotten their forefathers' respect for the Clever Craft, but your comrades throng this hall. Here in Shor's house we honor it still." Even the most honorable of old warriors holds respect for magic. Lets also not forget one of the greatest mages of all time, Shalidor was a Nord himself. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">So if you understand magic is a force that deserves study and should be used to help the people of Skyrim, you pick Kraldar, if you hate magic in all its forms and want to leave Skyrim severly lacking in enchanters, healers, and battle magic, you pick Korir. This is an easy call for me, Kraldar, the one who is open minded and easier to speak with. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">and finally...  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Hold: Eastmarch | Capitol: Windhelm | Jarl: Ulfric (S) vs. Brunwulf (I)  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Lets get this part out of the way early... Ulfric's policies appear at best prejudice, and at worst outright racist. To be clear I'm not calling him racist, there is plenty of evidence to show he's not as bad as some people would like to believe. But lets look at the Stormcloak Battle cry... "Skyrim is for the Nords" notice this isn't "For Skyrim! For Talos!" or "For freedom!" or even just "For Skyrim!" it's specifically "For the NORDS" it's not as if each Stormcloak picked that up on their own. Brunwulf has some insights on this; "Whenever a group of marauders attack a Nord village, Ulfric is the first to sound the horn and send the men. But a group of Dark Elf refugees gets ambushed? A group of Argonians, or a Khajiit caravan? No troops. No investigation. Nothing. There's a group of cutthroats out there right now that Ulfric doesn't lift a finger to bring to justice, as long as they don't threaten Nord land." It should be a Jarls duty to look after everyone within his Hold. I know he is preoccupied by the civil war, but if that's the problem why has he not appointed someone to look after his hold so he can focus on just the war? He has also turned away from his teachings with the Grey-beards, using his Thu'um to commit regicide. (Tibor septim would not have done such a thing) Now, all this aside, he is a great man. He is honorable, and he wnats whats best for his people. While some will say he started this war to become High king, I don't personally believe this as he decides to stick with Nordic custom and allow a moot to decide the next High King. Even tho the Jarls were placed there by Ulfric, and he may know he will become High King, an ambitious man would have just claimed it right then and there. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">~Brunwulf from the moment you meet him is shown to be a compassionate man, agreeing to speak to Ulfric on behalf of the Dunmer within the city. as Jarl he is a forward thinker, attempting to repair the city and the relationship with the people. He wants to fix things and actively speaks with his people to find out their needs. He holds just as much Honor as any Nord, and understands when it's time to fight and when it's time to talk. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Ulfric was obviously messed up (understandably) by the Thalmor torture, moreso then he may like to admit. He has a just "cause" but he is not the right man to lead that cause. His "you're with me or against me" attitude isn't good for relations which Skyrim will soon need. He has misplaced angst towards the Empire, causing the deaths of thousands, fueling Aludin's power, instead of fighting off just the Thalmor. As it was previously mentioned, that seige equipment could have been aimed at the Thalmor Embassy, not the city of Whiterun. Skyrim deserves better than Ulfric. So of the two... one is short-sighted with nationalistic policies, the other is open-minded  with plans to rebuild. I throw my loyalty to the person who believes in equality. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">SO, lets look at the Scoreboard; Should you side with the Stormcloaks, and independent Skyrim has... <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A crazed old man willing to conscript townsfolk   <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A man lost to his own paranoia   <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A Silver-blood thug who is overly fond of violance   <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A Miner uneduated with running a hold, and only cares about themselves   <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A puppet too inept to run a hold, when she's not too busy covering her eyes to the crims going on around her. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> An old warrior, set in his ways, blinded by pride <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A man who hates magic enough to want to remove it entirely from his hold and by extension all of Skyrim  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> All lead by the nationalistic, musguided Ulfric. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">And on the Imperial Side we have a united Skyrim, Cyrodiil, High Rock with...  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> An ex war vet who has expierence with leading men, and more concerned about protecting the people of her hold  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A spoiled brat who at least knows what goes on within the hold, and listens to council  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A man who understands the people must come first before vengeance  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A Mystic who has successfully run her Hold for years  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A woman who was already running the hold  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A man who retains his Nordic customs while still keeping an open mind  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A man who doesn't want to remove all mages in Skyrim  <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"><li> A man who wants to repair and maintain open relationships with other races. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">Of these two groups,do you stormcloak supporters really believe that the violent, blinded, nationalists will be willing to strike a bargain with any other nation? Skyrim being cut off from the Empire means a severe lack of supplies, and all you ever hear from ALL the Jarls (potential ones, or current ones) is about the lack of supplies. Hammerfell recovering means they wont be sending supplies, Morrowind fighting Black March means no supplies there. None will be coming from the Empire if you just killed a legion of their men, which also means High Rock wont be sending assistance either. So you're stuck alone, waiting for the Dominion to come knocking on your door. <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);"> <span mce_style="color: #ffffff;" style="color:rgb(255,255,255);">So for all these reasons and more, If you stand for Skyrim, you owe it to her to side with the Empire in order to keep her safe, not hand her over to close minded "kill-first" tactitions.