Talk:Skyrim Civil War

Glaring Errors
Some fairly big errors in this article. The imperials have their base of operations in Castle Dour, hardly a "small building". Castle Dour is (obviously) in Solitude, the hold of Solitude is the Blue Palace, which makes it impossible for the Stormcloaks to be using that as their base of operations.

Lastly this brings up the use of the word "there" in this sentence from the Stormcloak entry

"There base of operations is inside the Blue Palace ."

The correct word is "their". There is a general lack of good grammar use in this entire article overall.

The imperials don't want to destroy the Stormcloaks, they wish to crush the Stormcloak resistance and bring the entirety of Skyrim under Imperial rule.

The Stormcloaks have a more complicated motivation. Skyrim was a part of the empire. The signing of the White Gold Concordat that ended the war with the elves also forbade the worship of Talos. The Stormcloaks feel that this is cowardice, considering Talos (as Tiber Septim) was actually a Nord, to them this outlawing is an outrage and spits on the legend of the man-god. So the Stormcloaks want to remove the Imperials and make Skyrim an independant state so they can allow the worship of Talos. From what I have read on lore Skyrim was never really strongly aligned with the empire anyway.

Only write this here because I am not so good at writing succinctly, plus I may have some lore points wrong.

124.180.94.232 10:47, December 23, 2011 (UTC)LogiC


 * At a quick glance - that looks pretty correct to me. The last little bit isnt completely correct: The nords were already pretty much the backbone of stability in the empire (one of the Pocket Guides, I think, forget which one said that if ever the Nords awoke from their political slumber, the empire would be in trouble) but other than that, the lore sounds pretty correct. As for the glaring errors - I agree. Timeoin•Say G'Day•View my work•Skyrim To-Do List 10:53, December 23, 2011 (UTC)

I don't know where else to put this, but the entire Civil War topic on wiki is an absolute mess. If you look at the individual quests, jagged crown and of course joining the stormcloaks/legion are given from both POV's, but then "Message to Whiterun", the entire wiki page walkthrough is listed from only the stormcloak side. So is Battle for Whiterun, but then when you get to Reunification, the first thing it mentions is "report to general tulius" and the entire article is a short stub listing the legion side of events.

I'm trying to decide what faction to choose, but it's impossible with the information given on wiki because not only are each individual quests walkthroughs very poor, but they don't give both sides' events, nor is it consistent on WHICH side's events are given.

I was told the Civil War quests must be completed before the main quest and before the dark brotherhood storylines or diplomatic immunity will be terribly fubar'ed, so I should think this information would be very pertinent to most players.Theopheus (talk) 05:33, January 1, 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't really even started the civil war (haven't gotten the Jagged Crown yet), but I had no trouble completing the Dark Brotherhood's storyline, nor did I have any hiccups while doing Diplomatic Immunity (XBox) Tyrasis (talk) 04:51, January 9, 2012 (UTC)


 * I've done it twice now with no problems, joining the Legion both times, the first time before the main quest ended and the second time after. The chief weirdness was in the story itself -- joining as more or less a common soldier when you're already regularly knocking dragons out of the sky. But I suppose that's more interesting than just going right to Ulrich's palace and slice'n'dicing him, and it's not nearly as weird as starting the Thieves Guild questline that late and being demoted to pickpocket.


 * I've never played the Stormcloak side and I suspect I never will, for much the same reason I never play the Legion side in Fallout: New Vegas. The Nords, with some honorable exceptions, are brutal clowns, know-nothing nativists and racists, and booting them in the teeth feels very satisfying. I don't find them very oppressed by the Imperial forces either. The main offence or crime against the Nords that the Imperials are unarguably guilty of, forbidding the worship of Talos, is implemented just enough to keep the Thalmor off the Empire's back. Seriously, do you ever have any problem finding a shrine of Talos if you want one? There's one in Riften, for instance, out in the broad daylight and nobody seems to be trying to smash it. The Thalmor are the real problem; the Imperial forces aren't yet strong enough to take them on, and they never will be if they keep on getting stabbed in the back. If the situation bothers you that much, wipe out a few Thalmor patrols to work your feelings off. 174.6.51.17 09:58, February 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * That shows an ignorance of Tamriel international politics. For instance, The Second Aldmeri Dominion is actually a relatively small Tamriel Power, with the Argonian State and the Empire (even if Skyrim seceded) being much larger states. Furthermore, in the event of another war with the Thalmor, in all probability the Dominion would lose, as Hammerfell would most likely side with the Empire, as being surrounded by a potential enemy is NOT a smart thing to be, Skyrim would probably side with the Empire out of dislike for Mer races which had conquered it before, and Elsweyr would still hold tensions after the Five Years War. Also, The Empire has largely failed as a nation because the Thalmor have infiltrated almost all areas of their infrastructure, from trade positions to actively being able to seek out Talos worshippers in Skyrim. If you think Talos worship isn't being oppressed, you obviously haven't played a large amount of Markarth's missions. As for the rascism issue, while it is true that many races are a segregated minority, even if this did not end after the Civil War eventual social upheaval would occur and the threat of an uprising of all races would be politically disastrous for any nation. Corruption in the Empire is further seen when, if you give Riften to the Empire in Season Unending, Maven Black-Briar becomes the new Jarl. In conclusion, the Empire had become a disastrous, corrupt government that needs a new beginning if anything is to be done.
 * Uh, hey, quick fact check for the guy above me accusing others of ignorance while apparantly ignorant himself; first off, the Dominion is made up of the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr (where they launched the initial attack in the last war, so clearly it's loyal). It's huge. Black Marsh was basically dropped from the Empire 200 years ago, and Hammerfall was kicked out when they objected to parts of their land being given to the Thalmor (they are now independent, and already managed to kick them out of their nation, so I don't see them running to back the Empire that sold them out). Morrowind is still reeling from the damage of Red Mountain erupting, and much of their heavily Dunmer population is likely sympathetic to the Dominion, since they are the last non-human race to be in the Empire; they will not be much help in any war. This leaves Cyrodill with Highrock (who have a bad history with the Altmer and will definitely remain loyal to the empire), Skyrim, and tiny little Orsinium. Losing Skyrim would deprive it of their best warriors (since they lost the Redguards) and also completely cut them off from High Rock. And the Nords, after all that bloodshed, would not turn around and support the Empire; after all, they just did that a few years ago and the response of the Empire was to give up and sell out Talos. If the Dominion started doing too well in a war, sure, I could see some aid coming to the Empire, but just enough to keep the Dominion stalled. And I realize this isn't the right place to have a debate, but I figured anyone reading this talk page might appreciate some facts.
 * Uh, hey, quick fact check for the guy above me accusing others of ignorance while apparantly ignorant himself; first off, the Dominion is made up of the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr (where they launched the initial attack in the last war, so clearly it's loyal). It's huge. Black Marsh was basically dropped from the Empire 200 years ago, and Hammerfall was kicked out when they objected to parts of their land being given to the Thalmor (they are now independent, and already managed to kick them out of their nation, so I don't see them running to back the Empire that sold them out). Morrowind is still reeling from the damage of Red Mountain erupting, and much of their heavily Dunmer population is likely sympathetic to the Dominion, since they are the last non-human race to be in the Empire; they will not be much help in any war. This leaves Cyrodill with Highrock (who have a bad history with the Altmer and will definitely remain loyal to the empire), Skyrim, and tiny little Orsinium. Losing Skyrim would deprive it of their best warriors (since they lost the Redguards) and also completely cut them off from High Rock. And the Nords, after all that bloodshed, would not turn around and support the Empire; after all, they just did that a few years ago and the response of the Empire was to give up and sell out Talos. If the Dominion started doing too well in a war, sure, I could see some aid coming to the Empire, but just enough to keep the Dominion stalled. And I realize this isn't the right place to have a debate, but I figured anyone reading this talk page might appreciate some facts.

Canon
what do you think will be the canonical winner in the elder scolls 6 i believe it is the stormcloaks due to the fact that the legion is like the romans and the roman empire it was around for ages and finanly got beaten by barbrians(the nords for skyrim)


 * Actually, they were beaten by the fact that all the other forces split off ;) Timeoin•Say G'Day•View my work 10:50, February 13, 2012 (UTC)


 * when i said beaten i didn't mean destroyed just beaten by the goths(they sacked rome)


 * They'll probably take the easy way out and say both happened thanks to another Dragon Break, like they did for Daggerfall. Two other options would be to set the events of 6 either before Skyrim or far enough away that the civil war doesn't much matter (still hoping for Elsweyr). Tyrasis (talk) 06:05, February 14, 2012 (UTC)


 * That is a subject that has gained my increased interest lately. Each side to the Civil War conflict seems quite balanced in their agendas (Stormcloaks - Independence and freedom and right to worship Talos, on par with Ulfric's possible connections to the Thalmor and the fact that this entire uprising could be fueled mainly by his personal agenda of becoming High King more than just fight for freedom; And the Empire - Bound on keeping the age-long unification of their states and relative peace during those times, however poisoned with corruption and seemingly obvious degradation of power, since let's be honest, Septims did a whole lot better than the Mede dynasty ever seemed to.) Of course, unification and peace is good in the long term, however Nords seem to always be described as hardy warriors, one of the best in the empire, and since the Redguards could beat the Thalmor back from their lands on their own, Skyrim has a possibility of achieving the same feat. Of course, Skyrim has a lucky geographical position, since a land invasion could only come through either the Empire, Hammerfell, or Morrowind (Which according to some background lore I found, is apparently absorbed into the Argonian State after the eruption of the Red Mountain and the Dark Elf refugee wave, and as much as the empire and the Redguards are opposed towards the Dominion, I'm pretty sure Argonians wouldn't favor Aldmeri either - slavery. Also, and this I am not sure of, but if I recall correctly while playing Morrowind, I did overhear some Dunmer resentment towards the Altmer as well.Of course, quite a few centuries have passed since, but let's keep in mind that Elves can live that long.) Keeping all that in mind, what would be the most logical canon conclusion to the civil war conflict to set the stage for the new Elder Scrolls game? I'd love to read some structured opinions. :) By Sorko, 31.103.76.177 13:59, October 21, 2012 (UTC)

Regarding non-Nord membership of the Stormcloak rebellion
Bethesda provides numerous in-game references in the game of Skyrim that highlight how the Stormcloak rebellion is not a Nord-only affair. Specific examples which disprove the contentions of user Daevran13: Assuming that user Daevran13's edits are made in good faith, they appear based on a lacking knowledge of the in-game lore of Skryim. His continued attempts at removing information directly relevant to the content of this article are detrimental to its quality, and are to be responded to accordingly. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 12:51, February 9, 2014 (UTC)
 * Endon refers to his son Cade, who is a Redguard native of Skyrim who has joined the Stormcloak uprising. Endon additionally mentions that he would have made the same choice as Cade did if he had been younger. This is revealed as part of random dialogue within the Silver-Blood Inn during evening hours.
 * The Dragonborn can partake in the initiation rite of the Stormcloaks regardless of his or her ethnic background.
 * When asked by a non-Nord character whether he or she should really consider joining the Stormcloaks after escaping from Helgen, the Stormcloak NPC Ralof responds with the following statement: "Of course! You don't have to be a Nord to fight for Skyrim's freedom." This is revealed by talking to the NPC right after the quest Unbound is completed.


 * Their in-game dialogue when spoken to clarifies the following:
 * "I'm on my way to Windhelm to join the Stormcloaks. Ulfric has the right of it."
 * "The Empire is in shambles. They've banned the worship of Talos."
 * "I may have roots in Cyrodiil, but Skyrim's as much my home as any Nord's."

Verify this for yourself when playing the game and speaking to these NPCs when you encounter them. You are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. (Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 18:16, November 24, 2013 (UTC))


 * None of this is proof he's an Imperial. If a Dunmer says the Empire is in shamlbes, this makes him an Imperial? Nonsense, stating a fact doesn't determine your race, neither does having roots in a particular province. Annaig Hoinart was a Breton living in Black Marsh and had roots there. Does that make her an Argonian? No. I've reverted the article to its previous state. The Creation Kit says he's a Redguard, then he's a Redguard. The fact the developpers programmed him a Redguard makes it a fact, not your personal interpretation of what he says.  DRAEVAN13  23:07, December 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * Which is still no justification for your repeated attempts at removing relevant information about non-Nord citizens joining the Stormcloak uprising. I've re-added this information yet again. If your behavior persists, I will report you for vandalism. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 11:14, January 29, 2014 (UTC)


 * My edits are based on in-game evidence. The Stormcloaks have ZERO non-Nord members. This is according to the game's programming and the Construction Kit which allows us to view the race of every single member of the faction.
 * Endon is not listed as a Stormcloak in the CK and his son Cade is never seen in-game, nor is there a Cade/Race=Redguard/Faction=Stormcloak in the CK. Ergo, it's an UNSUPPORTED RUMOR, not fact.
 * Bethesda did that because restricting membership based on race would have induced fanboy rage.
 * See above.
 * NOT. ONE. STORMCLOAK. IS. A. NON. NORD. Your edits appear to be based on either ignorance or desire to add your fanboy proaganda.  DRAEVAN13  14:47, February 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Sorry, but you're the one at fault. You keep adding mis-information about the Stormcloaks and reverting my edits when I return the page to a factual state. I've reported you to the Admins for adding mis-information.  DRAEVAN13  02:14, February 1, 2014 (UTC)


 * You are at fault. You appear to have an implicit intent of removing information from this article which covers the multi-cultural aspects of the Stormcloak rebellion, such as non-Nords joining and sympathizing with the movement. This amounts to intentionally spreading misinformation, and can be considered vandalism. I will notify TES Wiki administators of your behavior, and I will be closely watching the edits you make on other related articles, as this is clearly not an isolated incident. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 12:17, February 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * I have already discussed the situation with the Admins a few weeks ago, and they told me that I was right and that you were at fault: THERE ARE NO NON-NORD STORMCLOAKS. I've contatced them again and returned the Civil War paghe to a factual state.  DRAEVAN13  14:33, February 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Please keep this discussion civil and remove blaming from each-others edits. There's an easy way to solve this. Come up with the sources that says there were many non-Nords that joined the Stormcloak Rebellion. Otherwise, it is an assumption that many non-Nords joined. None of the Stormcloak Officers are anything but Nords. But, yes, there are some non-Nords that sympathize with the Stormcloaks. If you have stumbled upon other races that have said (in-game) that they support the Stormcloak Rebellion, then source the information inline with the text, so it's not construed as misinformation.


 * As for the Imperial Legion, the player fights alongside Legate Rikke and Hadvar; Nords. The Imperial Legion has more diverse races that joined, as evidence by the various races that have the rank of Legate. Legate Emmanuel Admand (Breton), Legate Fasendil (Altmer), Legate Hrollod (Nord), Legate Sevan Telendas (Dunmer), Legate Skulnar (Nord).


 * While it may be true that some non-Nords were headed up to join the Stormcloak Rebellion, during the civil war, how many non-Nord Stormcloaks did you see fighting alongside your character? This information is based on the Creation Kit not having any non-Nords listed. Non-Nords joining up is not the same thing as non-Nords sympathizing with the Stormcloaks.


 * Also, please do not cite an edit-revert as "Vandalism" when it is clearly not, it's a disagreement that needed further discussion. — TombRaiser  SPEAK!  19:22, February 9, 2014 (UTC)