Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26896471-20150925213703

Regardless of racism, what reason would an Orc or Dunmer have to join the Stormcloak cause anyway? They are fighting largely for the free worship of Talos, a God with primary significance to Nords and to a lesser extent Bretons and Imperials. The Orcs of Skyrim are primarily concerned with their strongholds, and even if the Stormcloaks were the most lovingly accepting of all races, they would still have no reason to join them. The whole rebellion for most Stormcloaks is to protect the traditional Nordic way of life, which through the Empire's imposition of the WGC they see as being under threat.

You also say there were only racial tensions because the Nords were left to govern themselves. Note Nords as opposed to Stormcloaks. You could argue that the only reason there are racial tensions in Morrowind. Racial tension is a racial problem. Nords will always be suspicious of Dunmer, Dunmer always suspicious of Argonians etc... It sounds like what you're actually saying is that it's not that the Stormcloaks are racist per se. It's that Nords are racist and therefore shouldn't be able to govern themselves. In fact this is exactly what you're saying: "I know I'd feel on edge if a bunch of Nords with pro-Nord agendas suddenly gained independence". I.E they need a superior race to show them how it's done: the Imperials.

Brief point on a Hammerfell/ Skyrim alliance. This would be primarily defensive. Both would certainly come to an agreement if the Dominion attacked. I know Ulfric hints at going on the offensive but he would only do it if the odds were favourable enough. He's calculating like that. More improbable, but I can still see it happening, would be a Skyrim/Cyrodil agreement if the Empire were attacked. Hatred of the Dominion would certainly convince a large portion of Skyrim. Bear in mind, they will march to war under the banners of Skyrim and Nord generals. What better way to prove to prove your superiority over the Empire than bailing them out in their hour of need? Most protagonists in the Skyrim Civil War acknowledge that the real long term threat is the Dominion. The fighting in the meantime they see as a necessary evil.

It is obvious why the WGC would stop many Nords fighting for the Empire isn't it? The same reason that caused the rebellion in the first place... Talos worship. Those who fought for Skyrim in the civil war (we can assume that to be about half), would not go on to join the legion in the event of an Imperial victory. In the event of a Stormcloak victory, almost no protagonist would go on to object fighting for Skyrim in the event of a war with the Dominion. More would be willing to fight for their home and country than would be willing to dress up in Imperial armour to be trained as Legionnaires in Cyrodil.

I don't quite follow you argument on trade and economy. When will "Skyrim lose its entire economy"? If you're referring to the Civil war, that will be nowhere near as economically devastating as the Great War was on Cyrodil. I mean, the White Gold Tower itself was sacked and the entire province was under control of a people who wanted it systematically destroyed. The Empire needs the resources of Skyrim to rebuild. If your saying the "Skyrim will lose its entire economy if it leaves the Empire", then that's equally surprising. Will Skyrim's farms and mines just disappear? Will Solitude stop trading with Windhelm? You yourself have said that the EEC will not completely cease trading. Also, as I've pointed out, the EEC would be insane to massively hike prices because it's Skyrim doing the selling! The Empire needs to keep trading with Skyrim, and so it will. This time Skyrim will be setting prices to its advantage and not the Emperor's. You mention that Balgruuf thinks it favourable to continue with the Empire? Well, I "suppose the chests of gold don't hurt".

@Shingeru: It isn't stated that the Empire doesn't treat all races equally, just as it isn't stated that the Stormcloaks are racist. These are conclusions we draw from in-game evidence. The in-game evidence shows that Khajiit and Reachmen in Imperial controlled provinces are not treated equally. Ferris, however, has already come up with a counter to that.

"The Stormcloaks HATE all other races plain and simple" needs substantiating. I think most of us will agree that this is an exaggeration at the least. We've discussed at length why this isn't the case. I'd still disagree with: "there is a large racist element to the Stormcloak movement", but at least there's a tenable argument there.

The fact that the Nords "stole territories from the Redguards in the past" is largely irrelevant. As Blademaster Jauffre correctly stated, Falkreath was once part of Cyrodil so surely the Imperials can never get along with the Nords? Surely the Orcs and Elves can never be friends with anyone by that logic.

I'm sure I don't need to point this out, but the definition of 'globalised' is not, '100% of Britain is not made up of British'. If this were the case, the whole world has always been globalised. Until the provinces of Tamriel begin to lose their intrisic ties to race, Tamriel is not globalised.

If you've come into this text at the end because its too long, read my response to Ferris. That part of the debate is more constructive.