Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150916194635

I did come across this quote from Scouts-Many-Marshes: "You have no idea. Did you know it was his decree that forbade the Argonians from living inside the city walls? I hope in his next life, he's reborn as an Argonian forced to live in a slum because of some bigoted Nord dictator. I'm joking, of course, but I'm a lot happier seeing the Empire running things in Windhelm." coupled with his indifference towards dunmer plights, which could be viewed as a type of racism, and Brunwulf Free-Winter mentioning "Good. Too many Nords in this town have been listening to Ulfric's narrow-minded words. He's tough, loyal to his men and a good leader, but if you're not a Nord, Ulfric will never trust you." All I'm saying is there is some evidence to suggest he might be a bit racist. Not just him tho, a bunch of Nords are... its almost a racial trait. I thought about this too. In the case with the dark elves plight, Ulfric ignores them because he is busy with the war and the overall politics of Skyrim. Which I’d say is pretty fair. Ulfric has his hands full and the dark elves aren’t in any dire need of help. So he prioritizes them lowly. He prioritizes many things lowly, like the Butcher, even though he killed 4 Nord women. It has little or nothing to do with racism there. But the dark elves apparently takes it as some kind of personal insult against them, even though it doesn’t have to be so. In the case with the Argonians, like Bronkiin said, the system of the Argonian Assembly has existed long before Ulfric. But if we are to believe that the whole “Argonians are banned from the city”-law is indeed just Ulfrics decree, then why can’t Brunwulf, when he becomes jarl, just revoke the law once Ulfric is dead? His reason was that: “Most of the folk in the city believe as Ulfric did, that outsiders should not be trusted”. But then it is not Ulfrics decree(at least not entirely), but a decree of the people of Windhelm. It could also be that Ulfric doesn’t even give a damn about the Argonians and is only doing it because his people petitioned it. While I do feel a little bad for the Argonians and the Dunmer in Windhelm, I think they blame Ulfric for far many things. The biggest mistreatment I see against the Dunmer/Argonians is the bullying from some Nords. But you cant really blame the actions of the Jarl for what some individual citizens do.

We Kind-of do, he served the Empire during the great war, he was captured, tortured, and lead to believe the information he gave up is what caused the sack of the imperial city. He was allowed to escape, and shortly after was the Markarth incident. He fought and bled for the Empire, only to see it fall and betray the nords by banning the worship of Talos. The Empire was wrapped up in its own issues reclaiming their own land back to send aid to anyone really. It isnt as if they sat back and said "let them sort it out" and then sent troops once it was over with. He absolutely intended to get the empire's attention. Thats why I brought up the moot, because the markarth incident marks the point where he became anti-empire. (altho you could argue it was the signing of the WGC) I don’t really see that as an argument. There are many Nords who are Great War veterans, who suffered grievously, but still support the Empire even after the signing of the WGC. Just because Ulfric was tortured badly doesn’t necessarily mean it became the factor that made him go against the Empire. Also, I would say that they had planned to let the whole situation sort itself out anyway. The Empires true interest in the Reach is its silver, not the Hold itself. So they probably don’t care who runs it (Nords or Reachmen). Either they would go with their plan to declare the Reach its own kingdom, most likely to win their favor and keep their trade relations. Or something would happen within Skyrim that would involve in the Nords getting their lands back and automatically the Empire too. The Empire had, as far as we know, no plans of dealing with the Reach situation themselves. It was either tactically letting it go or waiting for something to happen.

Not necessarily, it's not illegal to hire mercenaries to kill bandits afterall. The Jarl's intentions weren't to hire out Ulfric so that they could keep his city. Ulfric made it illegal when he himself refused Empire entry until demands were met. You could blame the Jarl for ever promising open worship in the first place, which at the time was illegal. To the point of puppets, well.. puppets would imply the Empire frequently tells the Jarls what to do, which they dont, Skyrim is pretty much run by the High King and the Jarls. The Empire just owns the actual land itself, as property, in doing so, Skyrim agrees to obey Imperial law in exchange for goods and services and trade and such. Very well, if you say so. I must admit, I didn’t realize the Imperials has such massive influence in Skyrim, even though the difference of the people who live here. I always thought it was more like an alliance of nations rather than one nation owning all others. Although I am not sure if I like it better than the other… :(

It's the timing of the incident thats a factor here. It was just 1 year after the great war and the peace treaty was signed, had it been more recent, such as just before the game started (27 years after the great war) They would be in a better position to "openly" allow the Talos worship and not fight their own allies. I don't think they would have, but it would be a better argument. The Emperor NEEDS those Skyrim Warriors. He cannot afford to lose both Hammerfell AND Skyrim while he's trying to build his forces back up to fight the Dominion. So just allowing them to secede was not really an option. Also theres a lot of Imperial business and land owners in Skyrim who would have opposed the idea as well. Thing there is that Ulfric didn’t really time the Markarth Incident. It was the Jarl who sought Ulfric for help to reclaim the Reach. Not the other way around. Thus another reason why I doubt Ulfric planned all this just to agitate against the Empire. Unless, of course, he got the entire idea and planned everything down right after he was asked by the Jarl. Considering how poorly Ulfrics idea was, I could almost see that as a possibility. But I still find that pretty doubtful.

They had the right of it in this instance because the last time the Empire made a deal with Ulfric, they granted him open worship of Talos and broke the terms of the WGC.(she will even claim as much when you try and send her away) It wasnt about Skyrim politics. But even if it was... The dominion only have a threat to fall back on. If the Empire were to hold an alliance or trade supply meeting and the Thalmor saw fit to sit in, they couldn't reject terms on behalf of the Empire. They could threaten to attack, but as long as the terms of whatever agreement don't include "open worship of Talos they have no say in what happens. I think you may be giving them too much credit due to characters hating the fact they have to play nice and attend their parties and such. That treatment where the Thalmor try to "remind" the empire of their power doesnt translate to "the Empire WILL do LITERALLY ANYTHING for the Thalmor/Dominion" I am more than certain if the Thalmor tried to lean on the Empire on matters that do not concern the WGC, they would be rejected. We have no evidence that suggests they would fight battles for the dominion in order to maintain peace, there IS a line between them. Um, the peace council was about Skyrim politics. The whole Civil War IS about Skyrim politics. But I can agree with you that the Thalmor had a special right in this case. But the reason why I believe that the Empire will fold itself over a threat is due to their timid approach to the Thalmor, as we see in the game. Not only are they afraid that they will make a ruckus if Tullius don’t attend a Thalmor party, there is also the situation with Thorald Gray-Mane. Tullius mentions that if he tries to get one prisoner released, it would “cause far too many problems." Really? Over a single prisoner? If that case is true(although I somewhat doubt it), then how do you think the Thalmor would react if the Empire did something bigger than just this? It is pretty evident. It could just be ruse, but ruses must be kept up. What will happen in the meantime? I don’t think Skyrim nessecarily needs to be a part of that ruse.

But by your logic of the Empire being forced to help the Dominion, the second Hammerfell was no longer part of the Empire, the Dominion could have said "Ok now fight them" but the WGC is just a peace treaty not an alliance. Even if they kept Hammerfell AND gave the lands to the Dominion, and then Hammerfell had its own civil war, the Dominion wouldnt even need to be involved at all, they would sit back and let the Empire cripple itself (as its currently doing in Skyrim) They wouldn't fight along side each other, as the terms of the WGC work both ways, If Hammerfell had stayed part of the Empire and the Dominion was STILL attacking them they are attacking the Empire and breaking their own terms. Ok, I will try to explain again. By leaving Hammerfell out of the Empire, they had no obligations to enforce the treaty. The WGC only applies WITHIN the Empire. They have no obligation to enforce anything outside the Empire. It would be like if the Thalmor would demand them to enforce the same treaty in Black Marsh. Anything that goes outside the treaty, the Empire does not need to do anything about. And its true, the WGC isn’t really an alliance, but an agreement, which the Empire must oblige. Even if it means “helping” the Thalmor. That is why they let go of Hammerfell. So they would not have to do it. But anywhere else, within the Empire’s border, they have to comply to the WGC

But he's not specifically saying they did any of that, he's saying they can. As in "You may take my life but you can never take my freedom" signifying that no matter what they do, they'll never be able to stop people from believing in Talos. But it's also not the Empire's Goal to do that to begin with. As you said Stormcloaks tend to use the Thalmor and Empire interchangeably which isn't the case, and partly Why I dislike them as a whole honestly. I suppose you are right there, but even if its not the Empires goal, the Thalmor will still do their thing while all they can do is just stand and watch. Like I said, indirect help is just as bad as direct help. Them allowing the Thalmor to desecrate shrines and drag people away from their homes is the same as them condoning it, even if they deep within detest it.

But in short the overall point was the Septims were not the perfect dynasty, and it was not pointed at you directly, moreso to the people who I've seen before claiming the Mede Dynasty is shit compared to the Septim's. You do have a point about a single nation able to overcome incredible odds, but theres mitigating factors for each side. High Rock wasnt facing 3 nations banded together under the flag of "total domination over man" which I think in this case can make a huge difference. Haymon Camoran conquered all of Valenwood and Hammerfell with an army of daedra and undead. Fearless and powerful beings. The Bretons alone had to fight against an army big enough to occupy 2 provinces. In the current situation, we have 2 possible provinces (Skyrim and Hammerfell), who could possibly invade the Dominion of 3 provinces. Bad odds, but still a bit better than what the Bretons had to go against. And don’t forget that we have the Empire in the background. That is why I don’t see a big difference if they secede or stay with the Empire. It will become 4 vs 3 either way, as the Empire is also anticipating war. They need allies, yes, but I don’t see why they should control them as well.

They do have enough to be self sufficient for the most part, but at present they are not prepared for this. War takes a HUGE toll on resources, specifically food, weapons, and money. Skyrim has been apart of the Empire for a very long time and its entire economy is based off that. To lose such a huge portion of your economy is devastating. For instance, food; when preparing for winter for yourself you stock up on food, but suddenly now Skyrim is dependent on itself and is funding a war, you can't suddenly grow MORE food to now prepare for the war and winter. Theres also only so many animals you can hunt, time needs to pass for the animals to grow and such. When people have to start giving away their food to help everyone it can cause unrest. Materials: Theres only so many blacksmiths who can make weapons, and they can only produce so many at a time. On top of that, they need metal. People who own mines will be asked to give away their stocks to help the war effort unless someone such as Ulfric would be fronting the bill on that. If coin isn't going into the mine, the miners are either being paid little or not at all. This is all worst case scenario I know, but if even 1 of these things happens while they're trying to fight the dominion and hold off the Empire from swooping back in, they are in some serious trouble. Aside from expanding their food production, they can still trade with the EEC. And possibly still with High Rock, as I mentioned in my theory before. And there is also Hammerfell, whom they could have possible relations with. Skyrim won’t be entirely alone, even if they secede. As for materials, they already have plenty of weapons and armor for the current recruits. They only need to make more for upcoming recruits. 7 of the 9 Holds has at least one blacksmith(sometimes 2), which should be enough. Or they can also buy more from the EEC too. Also, I don’t see why the mines have to GIVE their ore away. The Stormcloaks are not thieves. They will just pay their workers, per usual. The only problem for the mine workers in that they will have to work harder to fill their new, increased quota. It will be difficult times, as implied a lot.

True, they could do all that however in doing so they leave their own boarders unguarded. While not impossible, they would have to risk sailing past Hammerfell and High Rock to get to that point. Also, if they did get that far they have nowhere to retreat to if they couldn't handle the situation, they'd be deep in enemy territory, possibly caught between 3 armies, Skyrim, Hammerfell, and High Rock, who tho may not have an alliance could take advantage of such a strange maneuver by the Dominion. it'd be too risky. A small force doing that could potentially cause some damage, but it wouldnt be like it was in the first great war. If there are little or no reinforcements in the other provinces, then the Dominion can do a lot more damage than you think. And I am not talking about small Dominion raid forces. I mean that the Dominion takes their entire assault force that was meant for the Second Great War and gears it towards Skyrim and High Rock, instead of Cyrodiil, which will be their strongest point. If they succeed in taking both provinces, the Empire is stuck. Its true that the provinces the Dominon controls will be significantly weaker. But if the Empire decides to march their entire force on them, it will also leave Cyrodiil very vulnerable. So they can’t leave to retaliate and must stand their grounds. It will put them in an even worse situation if they divide their troops.