The Elder Scrolls Wiki:Moot/Log 2016 February 06


 * 21:01:42: Cheatcodechamp: Ok, lets start if Dude, then we will hear from the Truth
 * 21:01:47: ShawnCognitionCP: Dermatobia hominis doesn't target open wounds, that's a misconception.
 * 21:01:53: Atvelonis: brb
 * 21:01:55: Atvelonis: bathroom
 * 21:02:01: The Crusader of Truth: If anyone can play Daggerfall and wants to add Daggerfall information to the wiki, please do so
 * 21:02:01: ShawnCognitionCP: Places they attempt to implant their (large and hungry) maggots-
 * 21:02:04: ShawnCognitionCP: The ears
 * 21:02:08: ShawnCognitionCP: Crevasses
 * 21:02:17: ShawnCognitionCP: The soft tissue (any area of revealed soft tissue)
 * 21:02:20: The Crusader of Truth: I still have to add aprox. 18,900 locations to this wiki
 * 21:02:20: Cheatcodechamp: I will make mention of that Crusader
 * 21:02:23: ShawnCognitionCP: The neck
 * 21:02:29: The Crusader of Truth: I dont want to do it on my own
 * 21:02:34: Dudethegamer: the thing i wanted to say was meef
 * 21:02:36: ShawnCognitionCP: And, the one you probably don't want to hear, the eyes.
 * 21:02:47: Cheatcodechamp: Not what we needed for the moot, but ok then
 * 21:02:55: The Crusader of Truth: :P
 * 21:03:00: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: lol lack of religion is measured in "Dawkins" xD
 * 21:03:07: Cheatcodechamp: Finelia, anything you want to mention for the wiki or Moot?
 * 21:03:28: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: we started already?
 * 21:03:31: Kora Stormblade: ow
 * 21:03:50: The Crusader of Truth: We started 3 minutes ago..?
 * 21:03:52: Cheatcodechamp: It was a soft start
 * 21:03:59: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: sorry I'll be quiet
 * 21:04:16: Cheatcodechamp: Anyway, besides Daggerfall guild recruiting, whats up on the wiki?
 * 21:05:18: Cheatcodechamp: and you do not need to be quiet Finelia, moot if a public meeting, so if you have thoughts share them, Dude can as well if he wont mention meef again
 * 21:05:20: Atvelonis: Bron and I had a few brain aneurysms looking through our lore pages
 * 21:05:26: Atvelonis: Category:Battles in particualr
 * 21:05:39: Atvelonis: We are going to be fixing those up
 * 21:05:54: Cheatcodechamp: Ok, I look forward to seeing you both improve those,
 * 21:06:01: Dudethegamer: i know the deal with the moots
 * 21:06:56: Atvelonis: Does anyone have any actual topics?
 * 21:07:08: KINMUNE: Hello there, Bronkiin!
 * 21:07:11: Cheatcodechamp: I feel we need to do a better job at recording how long nominations last, a few of the last ones I have seen had been sitting for awhile
 * 21:07:15: The Crusader of Truth: Hey Bron o/
 * 21:07:21: The Crusader of Truth: Uh
 * 21:07:21: Bronkiin: Hey all \o
 * 21:07:31: The Crusader of Truth: One of my old noms. lasted for two months
 * 21:07:35: Cheatcodechamp: Them not having many votes was beside the point for me, but that was a small issue
 * 21:07:35: The Crusader of Truth: I can say amen to that
 * 21:07:44: Bronkiin: Me and Atv did have an idea about a vote threshold.
 * 21:07:51: Bronkiin: Nom ends when you get x. votes
 * 21:07:56: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: is there a time limit?
 * 21:07:57: Bronkiin: But that'd need fleshing out.
 * 21:08:00: Bronkiin: 10 days.
 * 21:08:03: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: ok
 * 21:08:04: Bronkiin: For staff anyway
 * 21:08:39: ShawnCognitionCP: I think that's an asinine idea.
 * 21:08:44: ShawnCognitionCP: Easy abusable.
 * 21:09:04: Cheatcodechamp: In general, two weeks is two long, we all need to do a better job at watching nominations, and be willing to auto fail articles if there are issues instead of letting them sit.
 * 21:09:06: Atvelonis: We have the 2/3 majority rule which works ok
 * 21:09:08: Bronkiin: Hence it needs fleshing out. So, we're still discussing CCCs original thing.
 * 21:09:11: ShawnCognitionCP: I could set up a nomination, contact 10 users that like me here, and meet the requirements for success in mere minutes, before anyone else sees it.
 * 21:09:41: The Crusader of Truth: Make a time to vote ratio?
 * 21:09:48: Atvelonis: Shawn you also have to acknowledge that crats have veto power for these so if they're obviously rigged they'll just be disqualified
 * 21:09:56: ShawnCognitionCP: Voting is proven to work the best with the 51% ratio rule, hence entire governments running on it.
 * 21:10:17: Atvelonis: We've been using 2/3 for a while, we decided on it a while ago
 * 21:10:31: Bronkiin: The two thirds works best because of how few voters we have.
 * 21:10:38: Bronkiin: But this isn't about voitng.
 * 21:10:39: Cheatcodechamp: And our numbers keep it simple, most nominations are clear pass/fails
 * 21:10:42: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: yep
 * 21:10:50: Cheatcodechamp: Rarely do we have to even do the math
 * 21:10:53: Bronkiin: It's a question of timing.
 * 21:11:28: Cheatcodechamp: Timing is our issue right now, if we have no real methods, keeping up with the nominations, and how old they are is all we can do
 * 21:11:29: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: but anyway I don't like the X number option
 * 21:12:00: Bronkiin: ^wer're not discussing that
 * 21:12:15: Atvelonis: What are we discussing?
 * 21:12:17: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: yes that sounds good CCC
 * 21:12:20: Atvelonis: Timing for the status votes?
 * 21:12:22: Atvelonis: Or staff?
 * 21:12:27: Bronkiin: Timing for something
 * 21:12:36: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: no Bronkiin someone said we should close voting when there an X number of votes
 * 21:12:37: Atvelonis: For the status votes - our current method is super inefficient
 * 21:12:41: Bronkiin: That was me.
 * 21:12:42: Cheatcodechamp: I feel we have little we can discuss, nominations being to long is a issue we all agree on, and its only problem is we are not keeping up with ourselves.
 * 21:12:45: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: ok
 * 21:12:47: Bronkiin: As a throw away comment.
 * 21:12:49: Atvelonis: The time thing would be fixed with the council idea
 * 21:13:00: Atvelonis: Do we want to discuss that some more?
 * 21:13:05: Atvelonis: The council thing
 * 21:13:14: Bronkiin: Not yet, unlese you have something prepared.
 * 21:13:22: Bronkiin: *unless
 * 21:13:23: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: council?
 * 21:13:44: Bronkiin: For working over FAs CAs, etc, but idk if its finalised.
 * 21:13:52: Cheatcodechamp: I fear putting power into the fews hands, I recall your argument, and I agree it holds merit, but I am skeptical.
 * 21:13:59: Atvelonis: It's not power
 * 21:14:00: Bronkiin: It's not power
 * 21:14:14: Cheatcodechamp: I worded it wrong then
 * 21:14:30: Bronkiin: Not really.
 * 21:14:30: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: but why do we need that? can't the mods monitor it?
 * 21:14:33: Atvelonis: If this were a staff thing I would be all with you, but our current method is terribly slow and a lot of people voting don't actually read the requirements
 * 21:14:49: Bronkiin: Or do read them and don't understand them
 * 21:14:50: Atvelonis: I've cancelled some of those that have passed with like 5 votes because they simply don't meet the requirements
 * 21:14:53: Atvelonis: It's not subjective at all
 * 21:15:00: Atvelonis: I don't even know why we need to vote on these
 * 21:15:04: Bronkiin: It's like voting on stubs.
 * 21:15:09: Bronkiin: Stubs are objectively stubs.
 * 21:15:15: Bronkiin: GAs are objectively Gas
 * 21:15:17: Bronkiin: *GAs
 * 21:15:38: Atvelonis: It's literally just, "Does this article fall under these categories" "Yes - make it CA/GA/FA" "No - don't make it CA/GA/FA"
 * 21:15:51: ShawnCognitionCP: I remember when all of our staff had to be nominated by people that were already staff.
 * 21:15:55: Atvelonis: There's no interpretation or anything that you can have with people
 * 21:15:58: ShawnCognitionCP: It actually seemed to work FAR better.
 * 21:15:58: Bronkiin: Hence you need a smaller team to work that out
 * 21:16:23: Bronkiin: For FA, there may be a tiny bit. But even that is tenuous.
 * 21:16:31: Bronkiin: So yeh.
 * 21:16:50: Atvelonis: Eh, even FA is just looking over requirements
 * 21:16:58: Atvelonis: "Does this meet the requirements?" "Yeah" "Ok"
 * 21:17:21: Atvelonis: Doesn't need a vote, you just need people who know what they're doing to look at it
 * 21:17:25: Bronkiin: But there are some subtleties and nuances to it all. Many people miss them.
 * 21:17:32: Bronkiin: Yeh.
 * 21:17:44: Atvelonis: @Shawn: Well, because of that system it was a lot harder to become staff, so the better users generally ended up being there
 * 21:17:54: ShawnCognitionCP: Yes.
 * 21:17:56: ShawnCognitionCP: Exactly.
 * 21:18:01: Bronkiin: On topic though
 * 21:18:22: Atvelonis: We can discuss that staff thing another time, it's a whole different topic
 * 21:18:46: Atvelonis: I'd love to see our current nominate -> vote very very very slowly -> finish system for status articles be changed
 * 21:19:18: Atvelonis: To something more like nominate -> council looks it over well -> finish
 * 21:19:38: Atvelonis: That way it's a lot faster, and the status articles will definitely meet all the reqs
 * 21:19:43: Bronkiin: Atv, could you lay out the nature of it all again? Like, the speifics. As JJ came up with.
 * 21:19:54: Atvelonis: Sure
 * 21:19:56: Bronkiin: Like how many for what etc
 * 21:20:35: Atvelonis: So the "council" I keep mentioning just refers to a few editors who know exactly what they're doing who look over the status article noms instead of everyone
 * 21:20:55: Bronkiin: Not exclusively staff per se
 * 21:21:03: Atvelonis: This way, people who don't understand the rules won't cause not so great pages to get statuses
 * 21:21:14: Cheatcodechamp: Fa and Ga have the same standards now, and the last few I recall where last minute votes because nobody remembered.

Im just skeptical, There are small issues we would have to loot at, if we did something like this, we would need to be ready for the changes it brings. By moving from a community vote to a chosen few, we are removing power from the community. I know few people vote, but this would need to be a change approved of by the whole, and we would have to look at options for if this team started having issues. (presumed Bias, slacking in duties, stuff like that.
 * 21:21:29: Cheatcodechamp: Sorry for taking so long to write that, trying to word it right
 * 21:21:32: Bronkiin: It's not power.
 * 21:21:38: Cheatcodechamp: Im not opposed, but skeptical
 * 21:21:51: Atvelonis: The community doesn't know the reqs
 * 21:21:54: Atvelonis: And they don't read them
 * 21:22:03: Bronkiin: And doesn't understand the nuances either.
 * 21:22:10: Bronkiin: Them being the article and the reqs.
 * 21:22:16: Bronkiin: Far too much assumption.
 * 21:22:21: Atvelonis: I've told people to read the requirements well and unfortunately people will skim through everything and then support the votes
 * 21:23:07: Atvelonis: The community will still be able to nominate pages with the new system, but instead of a very slow, disorganized process to vote on it it becomes a very efficient process
 * 21:23:08: Cheatcodechamp: Then is there something we can do to make sure the people are better informed?
 * 21:23:09: Bronkiin: Is TCoT still here?
 * 21:23:16: Bronkiin: CCC, why though?
 * 21:23:20: Atvelonis: CCC, I've been telling people to read the rules for months
 * 21:23:22: Atvelonis: They don't read them
 * 21:23:24: Bronkiin: You don't need lots of people to decide if its/
 * 21:23:26: The Crusader of Truth: Yes. I am alive
 * 21:23:29: Bronkiin: *it's a stub.
 * 21:23:32: KINMUNE: Hello there, Ralvz'jeshka Shakaraph!
 * 21:23:34: Atvelonis: hey ralvz
 * 21:23:35: The Crusader of Truth: Just lurking
 * 21:23:36: Bronkiin: A stub is the opposite of an FA.
 * 21:23:38: ShawnCognitionCP: Increase punishment for those unaware of the rules.
 * 21:23:42: Ralvz'jeshka Shakaraph: Hau.
 * 21:23:43: Bronkiin: lol
 * 21:23:50: ShawnCognitionCP: If they say "I didn't know that was against the rules" when it obviously is, increase bantime.
 * 21:23:55: ShawnCognitionCP: It works that way in real life.
 * 21:24:00: Bronkiin: The whole concept of voting on this is flawed.
 * 21:24:03: Atvelonis: FA rules, not actual rules, shawn
 * 21:24:03: ShawnCognitionCP: "Ignorance of the law is not an excuse from the law"
 * 21:24:05: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: hi Ralv o/ :3
 * 21:24:18: Atvelonis: So stuff like "this article looks great it should be FA" when it's like 200 words
 * 21:24:26: ShawnCognitionCP: I'm speaking of the site in general.
 * 21:24:32: The Crusader of Truth: I did what Atv said once
 * 21:24:36: Bronkiin: "apparantly the nominator fixed it, should be fine"
 * 21:24:36: ShawnCognitionCP: That should garner a stern warning, then a block on the second offense.
 * 21:24:37: The Crusader of Truth: Bad idea
 * 21:24:51: Cheatcodechamp: Bron, we want people to know the rules so they can carry on when the rest leave, if we have a bunch of people who know the rules leave, we now have a team who has no idea what they are doing.  We should do what we can to make sure that when we are gone, we don't leave the community being unable to fill a void we could have done better to fill.
 * 21:25:06: Bronkiin: Well that;'s a different issue then.
 * 21:25:11: Atvelonis: No one is leaving because of this though
 * 21:25:13: Cheatcodechamp: That is why, this system you have has merit, I am just asking if there is another way
 * 21:25:20: Bronkiin: These guys don't have to learn by retarding the FA/CA process.
 * 21:25:25: Atvelonis: The people who vote are all active editors, just not all of them know all of the reqs the best
 * 21:25:28: The Crusader of Truth: I hate this places FA and GA system! Im out!
 * 21:25:30: The Crusader of Truth: jk
 * 21:25:51: Bronkiin: FA's are not here for people to learn what makes a good article.
 * 21:25:52: Atvelonis: The new system would just speed up the process, that's it
 * 21:25:54: Atvelonis: ^
 * 21:26:25: The Crusader of Truth: So, you guys are basically saying make a council for GA etc?
 * 21:26:32: Bronkiin: Yep
 * 21:26:37: Bronkiin: It'd be like
 * 21:26:38: Cheatcodechamp: Maybe not, but people do leave, and when that happens we need to know that those left can carry on things to their fullest, not training them leads to people not knowing what to do when they are all that are left. I am not saying they will leave because of the FA rules, life will take care of that for us when time comes.
 * 21:26:39: Bronkiin: 5
 * 21:26:46: The Crusader of Truth: Maybe more?
 * 21:26:47: Bronkiin: That's just
 * 21:26:49: Bronkiin: not on topic CCC
 * 21:26:55: Bronkiin: 5
 * 21:26:56: Atvelonis: Not any more than 5
 * 21:27:04: Bronkiin: Any more than five would be pointless.
 * 21:27:09: The Crusader of Truth: 5+Admin etc or just 5?
 * 21:27:15: Bronkiin: And defeat the object
 * 21:27:17: Bronkiin: Just five.
 * 21:27:21: Atvelonis: just 5, fgh, no more
 * 21:27:24: Atvelonis: Possible fewer
 * 21:27:28: Atvelonis: It depnds
 * 21:27:29: Bronkiin: Five plus admins is more than people who vote atm.
 * 21:27:38: Bronkiin: *the number of people
 * 21:27:47: The Crusader of Truth: Hmm. I would say no less than 3, definitely
 * 21:27:52: Bronkiin: Well
 * 21:28:03: Bronkiin: less than 3 isn't a council
 * 21:28:06: Bronkiin: So yeh.
 * 21:28:13: The Crusader of Truth: True :P
 * 21:28:56: The Crusader of Truth: So, Im not seeing many other posts
 * 21:28:57: Cheatcodechamp: How is it not on topic? I said something, you said it was wrong, and I responded. I am saying the counsel idea seems flawed to me because it dosnt fix the fact we are not training future stall to understand the system. If something happens to a member of this counsel, how can we replace them when we are doing little, if anything to make sure people are informed?
 * 21:29:01: The Crusader of Truth: Ohh
 * 21:29:03: Cheatcodechamp: 5 is a good number
 * 21:29:35: Bronkiin: "I am saying the counsel idea seems flawed to me because it dosnt fix the fact we are not training future stall to understand the system" FAs/GAs are not for training people.
 * 21:29:41: Bronkiin: Simple.
 * 21:29:44: The Crusader of Truth: Hmm
 * 21:29:45: Bronkiin: We can find another way to do it.
 * 21:30:03: Bronkiin: The people in the council could change every now and then.
 * 21:30:07: Bronkiin: That'd work well.
 * 21:30:12: Bronkiin: Then people would gain experience.
 * 21:30:13: The Crusader of Truth: Quite sure it couldnt be too hard to tell someone to read and study 19-ish rules thats already recorded?
 * 21:30:22: Bronkiin: CoT, it is.
 * 21:30:27: Atvelonis: Fgh, lol
 * 21:30:39: Atvelonis: I tell people "vote on FA and read the rules well" and they just don't
 * 21:30:48: Atvelonis: when they do, they just skim over them
 * 21:30:53: The Crusader of Truth: I dont mean everyone, Bron :P
 * 21:31:02: The Crusader of Truth: (If thats what you think, that is)
 * 21:31:10: Bronkiin: idk tbh ^ xd
 * 21:31:17: Cheatcodechamp: Then maybe we need to review the rules, find a way to simplify them? that would assist the matter some.
 * 21:31:26: The Crusader of Truth: I mean, if we need new council members Im quite sure we can teach them
 * 21:31:26: Cheatcodechamp: Keep the standards of course
 * 21:31:30: Bronkiin: It's not about that.
 * 21:31:34: Bronkiin: Voting on this
 * 21:31:41: Bronkiin: is flawed.
 * 21:31:47: Bronkiin: Is this Green? Lets have a vote.
 * 21:31:56: Bronkiin: Is this a stub? Lets vote.
 * 21:32:02: Bronkiin: ^ That's not how it works.
 * 21:32:07: Bronkiin: They are objective things.
 * 21:32:12: The Crusader of Truth: Bron, you just lost me there...
 * 21:32:22: Atvelonis: No, the problem is no the rules
 * 21:32:27: Atvelonis: The problem is that people NEVER want to read rules
 * 21:32:32: The Crusader of Truth: ^
 * 21:32:40: The Crusader of Truth: I can agree with that
 * 21:32:59: The Crusader of Truth: Just like chat. Some folks dont care about rules
 * 21:33:11: Atvelonis: Having votes based on a set of rules seems really simple, but the fact of the matter is that few people actually take the time to read and analyze the rules
 * 21:33:23: Bronkiin: Treating an objective question with subjectivity on something so simple will inevitably lead to problems.
 * 21:33:42: Bronkiin: And tbf, you shouldn't really need the rules.
 * 21:33:51: Bronkiin: But I guess some do.
 * 21:34:07: Bronkiin: Most of it is nuanced. Quality of language for example.
 * 21:34:36: The Crusader of Truth: Then you drop the potion and pick it back up
 * 21:34:40: The Crusader of Truth: ---Not good article
 * 21:34:52: The Crusader of Truth: (Imo)
 * 21:35:01: Kora Stormblade: >not good
 * 21:35:08: Kora Stormblade: xD
 * 21:35:50: Bronkiin: We can change the members every now and then to let people get more experience.
 * 21:35:51: The Crusader of Truth: Alright, I dont think this topic is going to get much further. Vote?
 * 21:35:58: Bronkiin: I'm thinking that.
 * 21:36:07: The Crusader of Truth: We can work out the kinks later, if need be
 * 21:36:37: Kora Stormblade: (support)
 * 21:37:09: Kora Stormblade: yay one support aight sweet
 * 21:37:20: Bronkiin: The leaders have gone silent...
 * 21:37:24: Cheatcodechamp: I am not a fan of voting now, fixing it later. If it has issues, we need to have it has handled as possible.

(-)

It has merit, but is the idea has kinks then we should not support it, this is also a community wide issue that we cant just vote one ,to name a few issues 2. There is no assurance that those chosen for the council *(Administrators) will always be available, or that the choice will always be run on the same mentality. Rather, you need very specific requirements set, that don't have any buffer. " 3. If we're setting 100% solid requirement, we don't need a council. If there is no choice being made based on experience, then it doesn't need a group. "Hey admin, this meets the requirments' "ok" Done. IT If they are, force them to learn or remove their rights via CT. to be good at editng and to understand." Exactly. >We should use chat >"If we have to negotiate the terms to the negotiation, we will never get anywhere."
 * 21:37:25: The Crusader of Truth: (=) I like the idea myself, however, Im kind of unsure about it as not many other people vote then the same 3 anyway
 * 21:37:39: Cheatcodechamp: (oppose)
 * 21:37:44: KINMUNE: Hello there, Flightmare!
 * 21:37:52: The Crusader of Truth: Hey Flight!
 * 21:37:55: The Crusader of Truth: 1,1,1
 * 21:37:55: Flightmare: hi
 * 21:38:06: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: hi Flight o/ :3
 * 21:38:14: Atvelonis: hey flight
 * 21:38:16: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: (=)
 * 21:38:20: Atvelonis: (+)
 * 21:38:26: Bronkiin: (+)
 * 21:38:30: Bronkiin: 3-2-1
 * 21:38:30: The Crusader of Truth: Bron/Atv, who exactly would the 5 be?
 * 21:38:33: Bronkiin: I think
 * 21:38:35: Bronkiin: We can decide.
 * 21:38:36: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: I like the idea but we need a way to prevent bias
 * 21:38:48: Bronkiin: We're not Shawn
 * 21:38:57: Atvelonis: We're voting on the new system, which fixes things now
 * 21:39:00: Bronkiin: This isn't a compromise.
 * 21:39:00: The Crusader of Truth: Hmm
 * 21:39:04: Bronkiin: We're voting on the system.
 * 21:39:11: The Crusader of Truth: You know what
 * 21:39:15: Bronkiin: The filler will come later. It always does.
 * 21:39:21: ShawnCognitionCP: The idea should be brought back up once a full, working solution is found. One that will not need tinkering with at all, later on.
 * 21:39:29: Atvelonis: We have a full solution
 * 21:39:32: The Crusader of Truth: (+) We can aways dump this if it doesnt work out I guess
 * 21:39:33: Atvelonis: I said it already
 * 21:39:33: Bronkiin: The system won't be tinkered Shawn.
 * 21:39:41: Cheatcodechamp: 3-2-2
 * 21:39:50: Atvelonis: Community nominates pages for statuses, council decides if they meet the requirements or not, and done
 * 21:39:54: The Crusader of Truth: *4-1-2?
 * 21:39:58: Bronkiin: I don't see why Shawn is opposing.
 * 21:39:59: The Crusader of Truth: I did change my vote :P
 * 21:40:05: Bronkiin: There are no kinks in the system/
 * 21:40:20: Bronkiin: And if they are, we haven't found them. And aren't planning to put them off.
 * 21:40:48: Dudethegamer: im sooo bored
 * 21:40:56: The Crusader of Truth: Hmm. How many of us discussing this even vote? 0.o
 * 21:40:58: Atvelonis: @Fin: there's no bias in this
 * 21:41:04: Atvelonis: It's literally looking over requirements
 * 21:41:10: Atvelonis: It just makes it go faster
 * 21:41:23: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: there could be
 * 21:41:27: Atvelonis: No... there can't
 * 21:41:35: The Crusader of Truth: Fin - Name one?
 * 21:41:38: Atvelonis: Does this article meet the requirements? Yes or no
 * 21:41:43: Atvelonis: It's not subjective at all
 * 21:42:11: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: what if there are multiple articles that meet the requirements
 * 21:42:15: Bronkiin: Then
 * 21:42:17: Cheatcodechamp: Either way, my issues aside, I feel is to large for us, this needs to be a CT, and we cannot approve something that will effect everybody without everybody involved and making sure it all works out.
 * 21:42:17: Bronkiin: they become
 * 21:42:20: Bronkiin: CA
 * 21:42:21: The Crusader of Truth: ^^
 * 21:42:22: Bronkiin: or FA
 * 21:42:23: Bronkiin: ?
 * 21:42:38: Bronkiin: It won't affect everyone. Only what
 * 21:42:42: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: ok
 * 21:42:43: Bronkiin: five people actually vote?
 * 21:42:46: ShawnCognitionCP: 1. "Councils", "Guilds" anything of the sort always fail here. They always get one active member, and a few that aren't productive, and end up either dying or loosing all credibility as a group.
 * 21:42:49: Bronkiin: And most of us are here.
 * 21:43:03: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: I agree with CCC, we should CT this
 * 21:43:23: Bronkiin: The third point is ridiculous.
 * 21:43:30: ShawnCognitionCP: No, it's not.
 * 21:43:38: ShawnCognitionCP: It's perfectly valid*
 * 21:43:41: ShawnCognitionCP: Hit enter too soon.
 * 21:43:57: Bronkiin: So if Meerkat Wizard goes up to JarJar and says this is an FA
 * 21:44:08: Bronkiin: and Jar Jar, as he has shown, doesn't actually know the requirements.
 * 21:44:16: Bronkiin: Then BS become an FA
 * 21:44:21: Bronkiin: Lamae Bal
 * 21:44:23: ShawnCognitionCP: Look at it this way. You don't need a group of people to make sure an orange is an orange. If it's very clearly an orange, there is no-
 * 21:44:30: ShawnCognitionCP: Force Jar Jar to learn, or remove his rights.
 * 21:44:40: ShawnCognitionCP: No administrator should be lost when it comes to ANY rules.
 * 21:44:44: Bronkiin: Which is why were changing the system Shawn.
 * 21:44:50: Cheatcodechamp: Third point has merit, a counsel is not needed if we do not need a vote. A counsel is just a small group who knows the rules voting.
 * 21:44:50: ShawnCognitionCP: Learn 100% of the rules, or take him out of power.
 * 21:44:54: Atvelonis: @Shawn: the difference between this and the guilds is that we aren't trying to get the community involved, so it will only be comprised of active people
 * 21:44:59: Bronkiin: Exactly CCC
 * 21:45:20: Bronkiin: Then Tim has to go, Shawn.
 * 21:45:23: The Crusader of Truth: We;;
 * 21:45:26: The Crusader of Truth: *Well
 * 21:45:31: ShawnCognitionCP: Yes, exactly.
 * 21:45:41: Atvelonis: We're getting off topic
 * 21:45:45: The Crusader of Truth: Comments still exist
 * 21:45:52: Atvelonis: What's the vote count for the council thing?
 * 21:45:52: The Crusader of Truth: For voting, that is
 * 21:45:55: Bronkiin: 4-2-2
 * 21:46:01: Cheatcodechamp: 4-1-2
 * 21:46:02: Bronkiin: ALthough Shawn is using our arguments.
 * 21:46:04: The Crusader of Truth: 4-1-2?
 * 21:46:20: ShawnCognitionCP: No administrator should be behind on site rules, no chat mod should be behind on chat rules, et cetera.
 * 21:46:26: ShawnCognitionCP: 4-1-2.
 * 21:46:44: ShawnCognitionCP: Four supports, one oppose, two neutrals.
 * 21:47:00: Bronkiin: Two oppose?
 * 21:47:07: Atvelonis: Then it should be 4-2-1, support, neutral, oppose
 * 21:47:07: Cheatcodechamp: I thought it was two opposes
 * 21:47:12: Atvelonis: Wait
 * 21:47:12: ShawnCognitionCP: Crusader was the other oppose, and he switched his vote.
 * 21:47:15: Bronkiin: ...
 * 21:47:17: Atvelonis: He was neutral
 * 21:47:17: The Crusader of Truth: NO
 * 21:47:17: Bronkiin: lol
 * 21:47:19: Atvelonis: I think?
 * 21:47:22: Bronkiin: Shawn xd
 * 21:47:26: Bronkiin: He was neutral
 * 21:47:30: Bronkiin: then switched to support.
 * 21:47:32: The Crusader of Truth: I was neutral, then went to (+)
 * 21:47:34: ShawnCognitionCP: wat
 * 21:47:37: ShawnCognitionCP: o i c
 * 21:47:40: Cheatcodechamp: its 4-1-2, Shawn and I oppose, Fin is neutral.
 * 21:47:47: The Crusader of Truth: ^
 * 21:47:50: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: yeah
 * 21:47:54: Atvelonis: 4-1-1
 * 21:48:01: Atvelonis: Oh
 * 21:48:05: Atvelonis: Yeah 4-1-2
 * 21:48:10: Bronkiin: So you are actually opposing it Shawn?
 * 21:48:11: The Crusader of Truth: Atv, Bron, Me, And ? is support, Fin is =, and Shawn and CCC are -?
 * 21:48:14: Atvelonis: kora
 * 21:48:26: The Crusader of Truth: Ah, yes
 * 21:48:28: The Crusader of Truth: Kora
 * 21:48:29: Bronkiin: Because this is how we're going to do away with voting on whether an orange is orange.
 * 21:48:32: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: but I still think we should CT this
 * 21:48:49: Atvelonis: I don't understand how you think it could be biased
 * 21:48:53: Bronkiin: Why? Most people who vote are here.
 * 21:48:53: Atvelonis: It's just looking over requirements
 * 21:49:00: Bronkiin: And if not, they came up with it.
 * 21:49:04: Bronkiin: JJ came up with this thing.
 * 21:49:09: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: it's not about who vote, it's about having the choice to do so
 * 21:49:09: The Crusader of Truth: One thing
 * 21:49:11: Bronkiin: Which I know is ironic.
 * 21:49:34: The Crusader of Truth: If people come in this chat thinking they are a damn fox etc, then how the hell can they tell an orange from an orange?
 * 21:49:48: Bronkiin: Fin, people are using there votes badly.
 * 21:49:51: Bronkiin: Constantyl.
 * 21:49:55: Bronkiin: *Constantly.
 * 21:50:02: Atvelonis: hey star
 * 21:50:13: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: still wikia belongs to the community
 * 21:50:20: The Crusader of Truth: hey Star
 * 21:50:22: Atvelonis: That's not the point
 * 21:50:25: Bronkiin: omg Fin.
 * 21:50:33: Bronkiin: So you should all have admin rights?
 * 21:50:34: The Crusader of Truth: Fin, you should go see some other communities
 * 21:50:34: Bronkiin: No.
 * 21:50:56: Atvelonis: If the community decides everything it's an extremely slow process, that's why we have staff to make some decisions quicker and in a more organized way
 * 21:51:05: Bronkiin: It belongs to the community, yes. But there are certain people with certain responsiblilities because they can be trusted.
 * 21:51:09: The Crusader of Truth: Some communities ban you for even saying that you dislike the rules
 * 21:51:17: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: I'm talking about CT, not the vating of articles
 * 21:51:19: Atvelonis: The community should definitely still have a say, but there has to be a balance
 * 21:51:27: Atvelonis: That's not what we're talking about, fin
 * 21:51:40: Atvelonis: The community is here now...
 * 21:51:43: Cheatcodechamp: We agreed when we started moots if something was to large we would CT it, and there are two people here, at least, saying this is to big for just us to decide.
 * 21:51:44: The Crusader of Truth: This wiki is very politically free, so to speak. Likely one of the most on Wikia
 * 21:52:10: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: exactly what CCC said
 * 21:52:23: Bronkiin: Is Renz around?
 * 21:52:31: Bronkiin: Anyway, there are lots here.
 * 21:52:45: Bronkiin: You'll just get people voting who don't have a clue.
 * 21:52:51: Cheatcodechamp: There are others who are a part of this community who have a say, three admins have yet to speak up, Dovah is not here
 * 21:53:10: Atvelonis: Dovah is never here, he does his lore thing
 * 21:53:14: The Crusader of Truth: ^
 * 21:53:21: The Crusader of Truth: Does Azura ever vote either?
 * 21:53:24: Cheatcodechamp: Then he should have a say, we vote on his articles half the time
 * 21:53:30: Bronkiin: This seems like foot dragging to stop this going through but idk.
 * 21:53:35: Atvelonis: He's not going to say anything ccc
 * 21:53:38: Atvelonis: he doesn't care
 * 21:53:41: Atvelonis: He just likes writing pages
 * 21:53:43: Bronkiin: He has never
 * 21:53:45: Bronkiin: ever
 * 21:53:47: Bronkiin: said anything.
 * 21:53:50: The Crusader of Truth: Greybeard of TESWiki
 * 21:53:52: Bronkiin: About any policy.
 * 21:53:59: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: xD
 * 21:54:08: RenzXVI: Oh, I was cooking noodles.
 * 21:54:09: Bronkiin: Well, that could be an exagerration.
 * 21:54:45: RenzXVI: But I've been reading chat though. :p
 * 21:55:04: Flightmare: so all of KINMUNE's logs are in CET now
 * 21:55:07: Flightmare: sorry :)
 * 21:55:12: Cheatcodechamp: Well Moot Policy is clear, if its effects the community and policy, we should CT, and we have people here are are concerned about this. I don't hate the idea, I feel it is a short term fix that needs improved on before I would support it.
 * 21:55:28: Bronkiin: How is it short term?
 * 21:55:31: The Crusader of Truth: Wheres the moot policy?
 * 21:55:57: Bronkiin: And who's to say this is to big? In theory, we could outvote that here.
 * 21:56:08: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_Wiki%3AMoot
 * 21:56:10: Atvelonis: It's not short term at all
 * 21:56:15: Bronkiin: But more importantly, this is no where near a short term solution.
 * 21:56:16: Atvelonis: The current system is terrible and we're fixing it for good
 * 21:56:21: Cheatcodechamp: Well, if it is not fixing people understanding policy, it wont fix anything long term.
 * 21:56:27: Atvelonis: It's a very minor thing as well
 * 21:56:31: Atvelonis: Very few people are affected
 * 21:56:34: Cheatcodechamp: Until those who know everything leave at least
 * 21:56:36: Atvelonis: It doesn't need to go to a CT
 * 21:56:37: Bronkiin: That's not we're trying to fix CCC
 * 21:56:45: Atvelonis: That's a completely different topic, CCC
 * 21:56:46: The Crusader of Truth: Moot policy: Roughly 2/3rds agreement
 * 21:56:53: The Crusader of Truth: 4-1-2
 * 21:56:54: Bronkiin: We're trying to fix the fact that FAs etc through way too slowly.
 * 21:56:59: The Crusader of Truth: Almost 66%
 * 21:57:05: Atvelonis: That passes, fgh
 * 21:57:31: Bronkiin: The fact that there are people incapable of comprehending how to vote will never change.
 * 21:57:45: Bronkiin: Doesn't mean they can't help out.
 * 21:57:47: Starkiller131: I don't vote.
 * 21:57:52: Atvelonis: They can still nominate articles
 * 21:57:52: Cheatcodechamp: And what happens when those who know everything leave, that leaves a void that needs to be addressed, and you wont do that by making a dream team and calling it fixed.
 * 21:57:57: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: " If the topic is highly controversial, a separate consensus can be created in the forum."
 * 21:58:03: The Crusader of Truth: But
 * 21:58:03: Bronkiin: CCC I've already suggested
 * 21:58:05: Atvelonis: CCC what are you even talking about
 * 21:58:09: The Crusader of Truth: its also 66%
 * 21:58:14: Bronkiin: We change the members so people get experience.
 * 21:58:14: Atvelonis: This isn't highly controversial fin
 * 21:58:16: Bronkiin: nd what
 * 21:58:18: Bronkiin: *and
 * 21:58:28: Bronkiin: CCC that makes no sense.
 * 21:58:35: The Crusader of Truth: Alright, look
 * 21:58:50: Atvelonis: The people who are going to be on this council aren't leaving anytime soon
 * 21:58:57: Bronkiin: And even if they did
 * 21:58:58: The Crusader of Truth: You guys debate this all day if you want, but I'd rather we come to a conclusion before midnight
 * 21:59:02: Bronkiin: you don't need a council
 * 21:59:14: Bronkiin: to be good at editng and to understand.
 * 21:59:25: Bronkiin: Ie when Atv or whoever leaves, we won't have a problem.
 * 21:59:38: Bronkiin: Because we will have new people who can comprehend.
 * 21:59:59: ShawnCognitionCP: "you don't need a council
 * 22:00:07: Bronkiin: Shawn
 * 22:00:09: The Crusader of Truth: >We should use forums
 * 22:00:12: ShawnCognitionCP: No need for a council, when we have an administrative force.
 * 22:00:16: The Crusader of Truth: I still love that quote
 * 22:00:19: Bronkiin: you are arguing everything in our favour.
 * 22:00:23: Atvelonis: It would just be me deciding it then, Shawn
 * 22:00:31: Atvelonis: The other admins don't vote on those
 * 22:00:31: Atvelonis: Well
 * 22:00:33: Atvelonis: CCC sometimes
 * 22:00:37: ShawnCognitionCP: I'm completely unaware of how you came to that conclusion, bronk.
 * 22:00:47: ShawnCognitionCP: You got defensive when it was stated we didn't need a council.
 * 22:00:47: The Crusader of Truth: 1-0-0
 * 22:00:54: The Crusader of Truth: Article gets FA (y)
 * 22:00:56: ShawnCognitionCP: Now, you see it as "in your favor" when it's repeated.
 * 22:01:05: ShawnCognitionCP: If anything, you're the one dancing between the lines.
 * 22:01:07: Bronkiin: Shawn, please wait. You've missed something important, so don;t go on.
 * 22:01:14: Cheatcodechamp: If we only have a few people who vote, as you said, we can not rotate the counsel, if people do not know the rules, we cannot rotate the counsel. if the counsil members become inactive, and nobody knows the rules, who will fill the spot?  This fixes vote times, but only when we have 5 people who know what the policy is.

A long term fix is trying to do something about people not knowing the rules, and you have said the problem is people cannot read through them all.
 * 22:01:34: Bronkiin: Shawn, do you even know what the current system is?
 * 22:01:36: Atvelonis: CCC that's different
 * 22:01:38: Dudethegamer: is the moot stil on
 * 22:01:44: Atvelonis: We're working on improving that constantly
 * 22:01:44: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: yes Dude
 * 22:01:46: Atvelonis: yes, dude
 * 22:01:47: Bronkiin: You thought this was about rules earlier.
 * 22:01:50: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: unfortunately it is
 * 22:01:56: Dudethegamer: ok
 * 22:02:01: Atvelonis: We have new editors working to improve all the time
 * 22:02:04: Atvelonis: Otto, fgh, etc.
 * 22:02:07: ShawnCognitionCP: No, I was stating that all users with power should know all rules.
 * 22:02:11: ShawnCognitionCP: You misunderstood.
 * 22:02:16: Starkiller131: ^
 * 22:02:26: ShawnCognitionCP: It was a sidenote, something that was made very obvious.
 * 22:03:01: Bronkiin: CCC, whether or not users stay and go is completely unrelated.
 * 22:03:21: ShawnCognitionCP: It's unrelated if you completely ignore every detail.
 * 22:03:27: Bronkiin: If they go with the current system, we have the same problem.
 * 22:03:29: Bronkiin: Shawn
 * 22:03:55: ShawnCognitionCP: Users in this system become inactive or leave, entire system fails.
 * 22:03:58: ShawnCognitionCP: No one to replace them.
 * 22:04:01: Bronkiin: Exactly.
 * 22:04:02: Bronkiin: So?
 * 22:04:10: The Crusader of Truth: Im seeing the same discussion over and over again
 * 22:04:11: Bronkiin: How does that change with/without a counsel?
 * 22:04:17: Bronkiin: It doesn't change.
 * 22:04:20: Cheatcodechamp: Not when its your new counsel members leaving. If they go, and we continue to do nothing to inform the maximum number of people, those people leaving has relevance to the issue.
 * 22:04:22: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: yep Crusader :/
 * 22:04:30: ShawnCognitionCP: Because it can be easily one-upped by a far more simple solution, which was already stated.
 * 22:04:50: Bronkiin: Shawn what you are stating is the same what we are.
 * 22:04:53: Bronkiin: Except with admins
 * 22:04:59: Bronkiin: not selected editors.
 * 22:05:11: Bronkiin: They are different so so so slightly.
 * 22:05:33: Bronkiin: You are saying five admins should make the decision. We are saying five of our most active/clued up editors should.
 * 22:05:35: The Crusader of Truth: Alright, I dont see anyone offering any argument that hasnt been restated 10 times already
 * 22:05:39: Atvelonis: The admins aren't invested enough to do the council on their own
 * 22:06:02: Atvelonis: It's not just the requirements thing, they're also busy
 * 22:06:07: ShawnCognitionCP: Thing is, which you may not realize- our top editors don't have the time.
 * 22:06:12: Atvelonis: Yeah they do
 * 22:06:15: ShawnCognitionCP: They have lives.
 * 22:06:16: Bronkiin: They do
 * 22:06:30: Atvelonis: He's not exactly a top editor, editor-in-training
 * 22:06:32: ShawnCognitionCP: Ottoman often talks about being busy and rather clustered.
 * 22:06:35: Atvelonis: That was taken out of context
 * 22:06:47: Atvelonis: Everyone is always busy shawn, it's just a matter how how busy
 * 22:06:56: The Crusader of Truth: ^
 * 22:06:57: Bronkiin: Shawn, he is far more active that most of the admins. Loads of people complain they are busy.
 * 22:06:59: Atvelonis: I'm pretty busy too, but I still make a thousand edits a week
 * 22:07:05: Bronkiin: You'll need a far better example.
 * 22:07:05: ShawnCognitionCP: I don't even see why this is being discussed.
 * 22:07:20: Bronkiin: True.
 * 22:07:22: ShawnCognitionCP: I opposed, it's not changing.
 * 22:07:25: ShawnCognitionCP: I'm staying opposed.
 * 22:07:30: ShawnCognitionCP: But, the supports double the opposition.
 * 22:07:35: Atvelonis: Yes... so it passes
 * 22:07:38: The Crusader of Truth: I say we go and make the change, because ^
 * 22:07:42: Atvelonis: That's what I said fifteen minutes ago
 * 22:07:42: ShawnCognitionCP: There is no reason to continue discussion on something which won 2:1.
 * 22:07:45: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: yes I as well am wonderin why this discussion is stil going on
 * 22:07:46: Bronkiin: The CT will not get many more votes than this.
 * 22:07:53: The Crusader of Truth: Atv: Yeah xD
 * 22:08:09: Bronkiin: If we had a vote whether this passes, then it'll definitely pass lol
 * 22:08:09: The Crusader of Truth: A CT on this would be resulting in nothing more than drama
 * 22:08:15: The Crusader of Truth: It always takes that turn
 * 22:08:18: Knight of Camlorn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6PvYoCVAgFg
 * 22:08:24: ShawnCognitionCP: I don't plan to take my opposition to the CT.
 * 22:08:44: KINMUNE: Hello there, Shockstorm!
 * 22:08:49: The Crusader of Truth: Hey Shock
 * 22:08:50: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: are*
 * 22:08:52: ShawnCognitionCP: I can't format my opposition into a completely solid and otherwise debate-friendly position, so I'll be staying off the CT.
 * 22:08:53: RenzXVI: Lol Camlorn, it's moot time and people are practically killing each other in arguments, then you come along with videos.
 * 22:08:58: The Crusader of Truth: Alright
 * 22:08:59: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: hi Shockstorm o/ :3
 * 22:09:00: Dudethegamer: Jello Shock
 * 22:09:08: The Crusader of Truth: Atv said this is already decided twice now
 * 22:09:11: The Crusader of Truth: Move on?
 * 22:09:28: Bronkiin: We could vote on whether this needs CTing.
 * 22:09:29: Cheatcodechamp: Besides my weekly reminder to nominate a image and quote no
 * 22:09:33: Bronkiin: It'd pass by a large margine.
 * 22:09:34: Atvelonis: hey shock
 * 22:09:38: Bronkiin: But it'd prove a point.
 * 22:09:40: Shockstorm: hi
 * 22:09:44: The Crusader of Truth: Bron, why would it need a CT if it passed in the moot?
 * 22:10:01: Dudethegamer: Shock have you played Pokemon Super mystery duenon?
 * 22:10:06: Atvelonis: Guys
 * 22:10:06: RenzXVI: At least now Shockstorm is just a fake panda.
 * 22:10:06: Bronkiin: Ask CCC.
 * 22:10:11: Atvelonis: We're done with this
 * 22:10:12: Atvelonis: It passed
 * 22:10:14: The Crusader of Truth: ^^^
 * 22:10:17: The Crusader of Truth: Amen
 * 22:10:20: Atvelonis: Do we have anything else to discuss today?
 * 22:10:21: Bronkiin: *sighs in relief*
 * 22:10:31: Kora Stormblade: i keep overheating my bad lol
 * 22:10:41: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: hi Kora o/ <3 :3
 * 22:10:45: Cheatcodechamp: It seems we are done here
 * 22:10:48: Kora Stormblade: (heart) o.
 * 22:10:53: The Crusader of Truth: It is finished?
 * 22:10:54: RenzXVI: Kora Stormblade is getting extremely hot.
 * 22:10:58: Cheatcodechamp: All in favor on ending the moot?
 * 22:10:59: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: xD
 * 22:11:03: The Crusader of Truth: (support)
 * 22:11:07: RenzXVI: (+)
 * 22:11:08: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: (support)
 * 22:11:09: Kora Stormblade: (support)
 * 22:11:16: The Crusader of Truth: (+) A thousand times over
 * 22:11:19: High Goddess Venus-Afrodite-Finelia: I need foooooood D:
 * 22:11:21: Dudethegamer: (-)
 * 22:11:24: Shockstorm: lol
 * 22:11:25: Kora Stormblade: no
 * 22:11:30: Dudethegamer: nah just kidding
 * 22:11:37: Bronkiin: (+)
 * 22:11:42: Dudethegamer: (+)
 * 22:11:46: The Crusader of Truth: (-) (y)
 * 22:11:56: Cheatcodechamp: Ok, I have an update to write, rember to nominate a quote and image
 * 22:12:00: Cheatcodechamp: This moot is over