Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150825234005

Ottoman Hold wrote: Although they want the resources, I don't beleive they would war with Skyrim just for that. They would let them go, just like hammerfell, to avoid losing men for the imminent Great War 2: The Even Greater War. Everyone in Skyrim who supported the legion may move away or decide to join the Stormcloaks, who in this case, did not kill Torygg or start a war. I don't really see why The Empire would have to put an end to Skyrim, since it is no longer part of it. I also don't remember there being a part in the WGC about The Empire needing to go to every providence and kill all Talos worshipers. Again, if they succeed peacefully, Skyrim is a useful ally during the war, since there are no hard feelings, unlike Hammerfell.

Then why didn't the Empire leave when the Civil War broke out, if they didn't want to waste soldiers? Thing is, they would lose more if they just let go of Skyrim than if they fought for it. Not only resources, but also Nord recruits in the Imperial army. I don't really understand what you mean with "why The Empire would have to put an end to Skyrim, since it is no longer part of it." I don't think the Empire will do anything if Skyrim breaks apart from the Empire. They can barely keep order among themselves. Also, it IS a part of the WGC that The Empire are obliged to root out Talos worship and arresting worshipers throughout the Empire. Not necessarily killing them, the Thalmor will deal with that part later. And if Skyrim breaks apart from the Empire and they worship Talos, the Dominion would hardly tolerate that the Empire treats them as allies. In the Dominions eyes, Skyrim would become an enemy state. If the Empire(supposed "allies" to the Dominion) would help their enemy, it would break the peace treaty. Hammerfell and(if Skyrim breaks apart), would be separated from the Empire because of them objecting against the Thalmor.

College Mage: Ferris wrote: Well, heres the thing. Ulfric had his militia up and running by 4E 176, when the Empire was signing the WGC (I'd question how Ulfric managed to essentially raise a legion of soldiers when they would have been better used to fight thalmor but thats for another time) and He was retaking markarth. This is where things become murkey... The Empire showed up to restore order, they're still pretty fresh from the great war, and trying to just maintain control, Ulfric using his posistion as savior to his advantage makes the empire swear they'll allow free talos worship or else he wont let them in. They JUST signed that WGC, and Ulfric is basically holding a city hostage to get the Empire to agree to break the terms. How much easier it would have been to just hand the city back over to the Empire, and just scoff at the Empire's inability to maintain control in the region. Then focus the milita on specifically Thalmor agents and activities. You would have had an entire region saying the Stormcloaks were the only ones doing anything about the Thalmor threat. Pressure would have come down from the Dominion onto the Empire to maintain control, and if the Empire were to openly attack the Stormcloaks, it would have painted them as the enemy. If the Stormcloaks ONLY killed Thalmor and saving citizens from Thalmor, and suddenly the Empire comes in and fights them, they would have lost ALL control. No matter how dumb you think the Empire is, theres no way they would have agreed to attack the stormcloaks (thereby losing all trust from the common people and nobles alike) which means the only other option would have been to let go of Skyrim completely. jumped ahead 25 years to 4E 201 and Ulfric is challenging Torygg to a duel, kills him, then flees back to Windhelm. This is totally unnecessary. This would have been plenty of time for the Thalmor to take root in Skyrim and a perfect opportunity for Ulfric to appear like a holy crusader. You have the Markarth Incident, where he trys to maintain open worship of Talos, then he's arrested, released, made Jarl (technically he was made jarl while in prison) and his first act ISNT an attack on the Thalmor Embassy? but instead to the High King? Why? to prove he's better? to prove the empire makes them weak? or other such nonsense. He should have taken the direct approach and attacked every Thalmor he could get his hands on. How amazing would the Duel between Torygg and Ulfric have been, had Torygg tried to ORDER Ulfric to stop killing THALMOR so Ulfric duels him for the throne? Doesn't THAT send a better message? The story wouldn't have been ulfric just marching in and killing the young king, it would have been the High King making a demand that conflicts with the interest of the nation and being dethroned because of it. and that would have only been one of the wost case scenarios, as the best case scenarios would have involved the High King joining Ulfric. Ulfric had plenty of time to amass and organize his milita only to take it out on the wrong target. Even with how angry and betrayed he felt towards the Empire if he outright refused to fight Imperial forces, the people would just see the Empire attempting to slaughter their only saviors, and good luck maintaining control after that. The Empire HAS to react to something such as someone attacking the High King of their province, and they HAVE to attempt to maintain control of lands they currently own. But they wouldn't have had to do that, had Ulfric not attacked the Empire. Firstly, I wouldn't say Ulfric had the city "under hostage". That's a bit exaggerating it. Secondly, like I mentioned before, the Empire could easily have negotiated with Ulfric for some kind of agreement. After all, Uflric's hatred against the Empire were solidified after the Markarth Incident. Maybe a different compensation or letting Ulfric know about their plans regarding the Thalmor and keeping him informed. That way the Empire could have showed Ulfric that they weren't Thalmor puppets. What did they do instead? They took the cheap way out by accepting his "terms" and very quickly backstabbing him without thinking twice about the possible consequences. They knew Ulfric was a respected figure and offending him could have caused possible conflict among the Jarls of Skyrim(and it did). Thing is that, the Empire don't want war with the Dominion unless its on their terms. So they will do whatever it takes to hold the peace with the Empire and the Dominion. Let's take your argument and say that Ulfric attacked the Thalmor Embassy, which would be an invasion of Thalmor territory. The angered Thalmor would take it up with the Empire and demand some form of action. The Empire being scared of a new war so soon after the previous war; they would bow their heard, apologize, possibly pay some kind of compensation (draining the Empires pockets even more or maybe even lose more land). Then the Empire needs to restore relations with the Dominion by either stopping Ulfric or releasing their rule of Skyrim(and thus losing another source of wealth and manpower). What do you think would be the more profitable choice the Empire would choose between those two options? This would still have sparked a conflict in Skyrim, just like in the Civil War, where Ufric would gather his allies and the Empire would gather their allies. Now you seem to think that the scenario you mentioned would give Ulfric more support and eventually force a seceding of the Empire, I must disagree. The Empire would still have half of Skyrim at their call, due to their strong influence the Western Holds. Solitude, being home of the Imperial Legion and all Imperial interest in Skyrim, as well as the seat of the Imperial sanctioned High King, would back the Empire no matter what. Markarth, with a new Jarl who firmly believes the Empire(and Skyrim) cannot survive another war with the Dominion will back the Empire too. Even if Igmund would change his mind and support Ulfric, his city had just been given over to the Imperial Legion to be occupied. He won't have much of a choice until Markarth becomes liberated. Dengeir in Falkreath will support Ulfric, but then become overthrown, per usual. Siddgeir will then support the Empire so long as he gets his cut. And Idgrod in Morthal would hardly change her mind either, especially considering the close proximity Hjaalmarch is to Solitude. Balgruuf in Whiterun might have felt more compelled to support Ulfric, but let's not forget that Balgruuf also has a certain bias against Ulfric, as he considers him being a "barbarian renegade who lusts for power". It is not entirely certain he would help Ulfric either way.