Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150908092045

WrathOfHircine wrote: S&#039;Dalaar the Snowcat wrote: Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote: Dalaar the Snowcat wrote: As for your question: “How many citizens die when Ulfric attempts to take Whiterun? Or when he takes Solitude?” In Whiterun, only one. In Solitude, none. Soldiers don’t count as civilians. Unless you meant something else. The only confirmed casualty of the war is Severio Pelagia (divines bless his soul), but I would say that’s still pretty good. It could have been a lot worse. I don't think so.

Battle of Whiterun (Stormcloak side):

Balgruuf: Tell me, Vignar. Was all this worth it? How many of those corpses lining our streets wear the faces of men who once called you friend? What about their families?

Galmar: Enough! Both of you! There is a burning city out there that needs a government.

Vignar: He's right. Galmar, come, let us restore order.

The Stomcloaks killed civilians during their assault on Whiterun and Vignar didn't care about the civilian casualties. Worse still, he becomes Jarl. A Jarl who let the Stormcloaks kill his own people. But what civilians? Count the number of citizens of Whiterun before the Stormcloak assault on the city. Then count the same number again after the Stormcloaks siezed the city. It will be everyone, except Severio Pelagia. Balgruuf was obviously refering to the soldiers who had died in the field. Not the innocent civilians. And as for the soldiers deaths, it is all on Balgruuf's head. He had the option to side with Ulfric and prevent the death of his soldiers. Ulfric would have welcomed that. Balgruuf picked a side and it had consequenses. Dont blame Stormlcloaks or Imperials for the orders that the Jarl himself issued. Balgruuf picked a side because Ulfric forced him You are partially right on that. And I would fully agree with you, if not for one problem: Balgruuf was never really neutral. Even from the beginning of the game, it was heavily implied that Balgruuf was leaning more towards the Empire. It is also seen in Whiterun's approach to the Civil War. The Hold was still open to Imperial traffic and allowed Legionnaires to pass through unharmed. Within Balgruuf's court, there are 2(maybe 3) staunch Imperial supporters giving him advice and influencing him in that direction; Proventus and Hrongar(and possibly Commander Caius). The guardsmen are also equipped with Imperial weapons provided by the Empire and show disdain to anyone wearing Stormcloak armor. Finally, while they let go of Imperials who travels through Whiterun, they are hostile to any Stormcloaks entering their territory.

See, Balgruuf was never "neutral". I would say he was 90% Empire supporter. The only reason he didn't go 100% was due to him not enforcing the WGC in his city. Balgruuf knew that he would have to pick a side at some point, but due to the chaos in Skyrim, he saw an opportunity to allow his people to worship Talos for a little longer. But through and through, he was all for the Empire over the Stormcloaks, as you can hear in his speeches against them.

I am surprised that Ulfric has been so patient to still consider Balgruuf a possible ally while he indirectly helps the Imperials and directly hinder the Stormcloaks. But patience had to end at some point. Ulfric didn't force anyone to anything. He just couldn't wait any longer while his men were dying out there and wanted a straight answer so he could plan ahead.