Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-26213507-20150715194939/@comment-26801133-20150812214301

You do bring up some very good points, which I really appreciate. But a couple of things you might not have considered:

College Mage: Ferris wrote:

I like you snowcat, you can have an actual dialog. I'd like to respond to some of this if Shigeru doesnt mind.

ANY leader who accepts surrender under threat of war, is no leader. That's not just with the Empire, when Ulfric challeneged the High King, Torygg didnt stand down just so he could live. He probably knew he stood no chance against a verteran like Ulfric, shout or no shout. Thats just part of the burden of leadership, so I don't feel you can really hold THAT against the Emperor, theres lots others you could hold against him, but choosing to fight over having the entire empire appear weak and open to threats should not be one of them. Lets also not forget the "gift" that was left for him, the heads of all the blades. Had he agreed to the terms and THEN been presented with the heads, war most likely would have broken out anyways. (probably numerous civil wars)

Well, I guess I would give you that much. But the thing is they could surely have planned this better. The Emperor could maybe have summoned all the counts of Cyrodiil to a secret meeting to discuss the situation and come up with an agreement to prevent civil war. But that’s thinking a bit too broadly on the subject.

Well typically, you don't send all of your own troops to solve the problems of your allies. You send small forces, which it did in the case of the civil war. But here is where we somewhat find some common ground. Why WOULD the Empire defend Skyrim if they lose it in the civil war? They just lost an entire legion to a bunch of Nords yelling about how they want to kill imperials, the wounds would be too fresh to ask them to set aside their differences. Within the worst case scenario if Cyrodiil falls you have the dominion on Skyrim's doorstep, in one of the best possible bottleneck positions. That puts them within grasp of Riften and once they have that, its a stone's throw away from Windhelm. I Also don't think they could use Skyrim as cannon fodder, as a place to retreat back to, yes, but they wouldn't willingly lead them into skyrim if they didnt have too, thats way too deep into the mainland to allow them.

Indeed. You don’t send all your troops, only just enough (or maybe a little more) so they can retain control of the province. It is evident that they didn’t have that, since they needed to recruit Nords into the Legion just so that they can, at the very least, be tied with the Stormcloaks. And of course the Imperials would not send aid to Skyrim if the Stromcloaks take over. It would violate the terms of the White-Gold Concordant. But if Cyrodiil falls, it will cost the Dominion's army heavily and they wouldn't be able to immediately invade Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfell. Meanwhile those provinces could clean up the remaining Thalmor soldiers and retake Cyrodiil and, together, invade the Dominion in turn.

I honestly don't have any comment on the armor portion here, you pretty much cover how they're both, more or less even. I will say, at least, that without a navy it could become a problem for Skyrim (since I believe High Rock represents the bulk of the Imperial Navy) if they were to lose Riften, Windhelm, and Solitude, they're completely cut off from supplies. and, although unlikely, the Dominion could just desguise one of their ships as an east empire company ship, dock in one of the major cities and BAM you've got an infestation of dominion and a harbor that's been cut off. I always assumed their plan was to sort of sit and wait for the dominion to come to them, which is weird since they do mention "taking the fight" to the dominion.

I know, I too thought the Stormcloaks would take their army to the Dominion. So it’s weird that they don’t have ships. Or maybe they do, but you don’t see them in game. Rustleif in Dawnstar mention he worked on many ships that come through Dawnstar, even if we don’t ever see any of them. And you know, if the Thalmor would try to send a ship full of soldiers to any of the port towns, I would consider it a blessing rather than a problem. You see, the Thalmor could easily ride in a ship to a dock(like Solitude) and overtake it. But then the Stormcloaks garrisoned in the city would marsch to the docks and easily slaughter the elves, because a ship can only hold so many soldiers. The Dominion will have lost a chunk of soldiers, the port would be retaken and the Stormcloaks would have gained a transport vessel for their future war against the Dominion. I don’t see that as a wise move on the Dominions part. Also, don’t rule out the idea of the Empire using the Nord soldiers as cannon fodder. They did that with one of their own Legions when the Emperor charged out of the Imperial City. Sure, they were desperate, but that same desperation can occur again. And note: those were their own countrymen. What do you think they might possibly do to the soldiers from other countries? The Imperials will ultimately save themselves over their allies. Which isn’t an unreasonable act, but that would devastate Skyrim(or even High Rock).

Well there's really only 1 law they're enforcing, and that's the Talos ban. I know your question "so what if the empire falls" was directed to shigeru, but I'll answer the same, It's not really about reuniting ALL of tamriel again, or at least not for me. I personally would prefer if the Empire JUST focused on running Cyrodiil, but this is just a really bad time for it. The lore suggests that with or without Skyrim the Empire is the ones who will be fighting the Dominion. If they fall, Skyrim is where they're going to next. Skyrim if it wins the civil war is filled with ex legionaires, farmers and miners who took up the sword, it's not a trained army that could withstand a full invasion, I use the example of Ulfric mentioning he couldn't handle a full invasion from the Empire, so how would he handle one from the dominion? He had trouble with a single legion, this is a full invasion. If Skyrim were to then fall, they have a much better position to take on either Hammerfell or High Rock, but that's getting too far ahead. The short of it is, if the Empire falls, Skyrim is going to have the business end of an invasion on its hands, with nothing but ex soldiers and commoners to defend it. (Side note, anyone else think it'd be cool if the college of whispers got a bunch of Necromancers to take control of the ebony axe wielding draugr, and have an undead army fight the dominion?)

To the point of " just because a country is independent doesn’t mean that the Thalmor will swoop in and take over it." is true but it's not about gaining land to own its about positioning to strike. If Skyrim becomes independent, killing imperials to gain independence, Ulfric (or whoever is in charge) wont just allow more Imperials back into skyrim to help, and would be less likely to offer their help, even IF they both hate the Dominion. The Nords or prideful.. its an important character distinction. Cutting off Skyrim also means cutting off supply lines, not entirely, but still... enough where it could make a difference. If you just won your independence do you really want to have your borders open to anyone claiming to be a merchant? it'll slow everything down. The dominion at present doesn't have to worry about leaving their own borders unguarded. Who's going to come and try and claim them? Hammerfell? leaving themselves open to attack? who's going to risk leaving the safety of fortification to go into open waters (which could also mean they'd be gone for months at a time in order to sail there) just to TRY and take on the summerset isles?

Well… you are actually right about that. But, you know, if you put one of those former miners, farmers, commoners or shopkeepers against a Legionnaire, a supposedly well-trained and disciplined soldier, you will see that they are pretty much tied. So what does that tell you? That either Nords are such a badass race, that even the most inexperienced Nord can whoop the asses of well trained warriors (I admit, I would like to believe that very much :D ). Or that even the combat training of the Legion has also degenerated a lot. So it means that not only does the Legion have smaller numbers, but even fewer capable combatants. And of course Ulfric and his Stormcloaks cannot handle all out war with the Empire. The Stormcloaks make up about 1 Legion. If the Empire sends 2 Legions, the Stormcloaks would undoubtedly lose. If the Stormcloaks win the war, they will have their soldiers defending Skyrim and nothing more. If the Imperials win, Tullius’ Legion will be defending Skyrim and nothing more, since they won’t send more troops without the risk of weakening their own defenses. And as we see in the aftermaths of the Civil War; all forts, cities and smaller settlements will have the same number of soldiers guarding them. Only difference is their allegiance. (Also, Luah Al-Skaven had that same idea, except her undead army would be geared at the Imperials and Stormcloak. If only a saner necromancer could steal her plans and use that army of resurrected, ancient Nords to attack the Dominion… it would be like poetic justice. Beautiful!)

They will indeed not allow the Imperial military forces back. For good reason too. Unless they make some kind of secret and very profitable negotiation. Thing is that even if Ufric hates the Empire for enforcing the laws of the Thalmor, he understands that the Thalmor is the real enemy (or at least Galmar does it, but Ulfric listens a lot to Galmar). And even if Ulfric doesn’t support it(although there is no proof that he doesn’t), the Stormcloaks are still welcoming and allowing the East Empire Company to trade goods with Skyrim and travel through Skyrim to the rest of Tamriel since, like I said before, they aren’t involved in the politics of Skyrim. I’d say supplies can still go through Skyrim to the Empire, if only a bit hindered. Perhaps Ulfric will heavily tax goods from Skyrim that they trade with EEC. And I would not be so sure about the Dominion having no trouble with leaving their borders unguarded. It is mentioned that the Dominion has/had problems with dissidents opposing their tyranny. If they are not careful, they might end up with a rebellion on their own. These are just speculations, but it would be unwise for any ruling nation to leave their holdings unguarded.

True but they were lost more do to blackmarsh taking advantage of Morrowind's weakened state, in order to claim revenge, all while the Empire was tied up with the dominion. There was no way to attempt to parlay a truce between the two and with the empire already having little sway in morrowind it was easier to "let them go" Which brings us back to our common ground, I think The Empire should really focus on just Cyrodiil, and not all these other nations, but to get to that point, the Empire needs Skyrim.

Morrowind was still part of the Empire when they got sacked by the Argonians. And I wouldn’t say they had little sway there. They had House Hlaalu, one of the Great House at their back as well as King Helseth(if he is still alive). The Dunmer pleaded for help to rebuild, but I guess since the Empire hardly has the resources the quell a rebellion; they most likely had even less to help the Dunmer. If Skyrim ended up sacrificing itself for the Empire, do you think they would help them rebuild? I dunno, maybe they would, but right now, I just don’t see it happening. I do agree the Empire should focus on Cyrodiil than the other provinces. That is why I think they should take their troops and corrupted influence out of Skyrim and focus entirely on reorganizing themselves for the next Great War.