Board Thread:Lore Discussion/@comment-1600847-20161103125247/@comment-30011802-20161103195817

Oh, New thread, before you try to counter anything I take these into account, cuase thats where ill be workin from,

And Skyrim can defend for itsself! Lets look at the two ways a military force can invade a territory. The first possibility is by Land. If the Thalmor were to attempt this, they’d need to go through either Morrowind (not allies of the Thalmor, and never have been, plus Argonians occupy part of it and are fighting the Dark Elves) or Hammerfell (obviously hostile to the Dominion) or through Cyrodiil, even High Rock. Now many say that there’s the solution. The Thalmor have a treaty with the Empire, and they are allowed through Empire territory. Two things. One, the Justiciars are allowed, and two, whole armies are clearly not. . How do I know this? Tullius himself says that the Empire is currently guarding its border to watch for an attack from the Dominion. Think about that for a sec. If the Thalmor were allowed to waltz in whenever they wanted, why the hell is the Empire wasting their time guarding their borders? It makes no sense. Clearly the deal of the Thalmor in their territory extends solely to Justiciars for hunting down “heretics” not their whole army. . Now look at Skyrim’s natural barriers. Mountains. The worst kind. You cannot sustain a flow of troops and supplies through a mountain range. Not easily anyway. Couple that with the intense weather, and you have a complete supply chain disaster, easily cut off with avalanches, ambushes in the mountains, and already made impractical and long treks due to the mountains already. .This picture better shows just how fortified Skyrim truly is from Hammerfell, High Rock, Cyrodiil and Morrowind: TamrielWorldMap.jpg. Now, the Thalmor, assuming they actually did get through Cyrodiil in whatever fashion still would have trouble getting through even if they used the Pale Pass, due to it’s treacherous reputation. Here’s an example of how it caused trouble for Tullius during the Stormcloak rebellion. You’ll remember this from part 1 if you’ve all been reading like good boys and girls:. %5B5%5D In 4E 201, the Pale Pass was closed due to avalanches, preventing Imperial reinforcements from helping to secure Falkreath Hold under Imperial control during the Stormcloak Rebellion.%5B6%5D%5B7%5D. In short, a land invasion is highly unlikely in the current situation. I didn’t even talk about the obvious disadvantage of fighting in a cold climate that the Thalmor are not at all used to fighting in (their homeland is SUMMERSET ISLE for Kyne’s sake) against a people who are literally magically resistant to cold weather and magic. . Now lets look at what the Thalmor are actually good at. Naval invasion. The Thalmor are known (or rumored. didn’t hear much about this so called godly navy in the war) to have the most advanced and powerful naval force in Tamriel. But even the most advanced naval ships cannot successfully invade without a safe port nearby to house reinforcements and supplies to sustain the attack. See how far away Summerset Isle is? . It would be comically impractical to invade Skyrim from this far away, whether that be by land or sea. Even our real life history proves this fact to be true. The Thalmor can’t set one on the coast of Skyrim to the North because one, they’d be under constant attack, and two, the Sea of Ghosts is as the name suggests extremely treacherous. They don’t have any islands nearby to do this either. . The only possibilities they have is to anger the Dark Elves as well, and take one of those islands that are literally on the opposite side of Tamriel from Summerset Isle. Then they’d be fighting two nearby nations at the same time, and this time one of them is magically adept, and are as tough as the Nords are. So without a true safe port, this invasion tactic is even more unlikely to succeed. . Or, they could try and get permission from the Imperials to use High Rock’s ports for a land and naval invasion, but if the Imperials don’t interject to letting the guys that are out to destroy humanity be in a position to not only taking an independent Skyrim who is an enemy of their enemy, but also High Rock, their only other province left, then I know High Rock will. And even if they didn’t, you can guarantee a Hammerfell and Skyrim alliance at that point. The Bretons may even jump in themselves if they see the writing on the wall. This is how alliances are formed. . This is why I personally laugh at those who say “without the Empire in Skyrim, the Stormcloaks are doomed.” The Nords could literally sit back and gulp down some Black-Briar mead while the land does the fighting for them. There is no realistic scenario where the Thalmor invade Skyrim successfully, or without starting up the Great War II. a day ago"The Empire needed to sign the White-Gold Concordat or else it would've been destroyed". The Dominion made the largest army in Elven history attack the Imperial City, to which the Empire destroy all of them. This had to have taken a toll on their armies. And since Elves reproduce slower, they probably have barely recovered. So really the concordat was worthless. You might be asking yourself, "If they could've won why did he sign it at all?". In big wars like the Great War, people get very tired of fighting. This probably happened to the Emperor and the Elder Council. The Dominion, despite losing, didn't seem the giving up type, so the Emperor must've thought they could just make peace together, but that decision lead to the oppression of the people. Not the salvation of the Empire. "The Empire is going to fight the Dominion after the civil war ends" A lot of Imperials use this to justify them joining the Empire. But this isn't actually true. If you talk to the Imperial Legate if Riften they actually say after the wars ends they plan to invade Morrowind. That shows after the civil war they are NOT going to fight the Dominion. The only people who say the Empire has any plans of fighting anytime soon is some soldiers and Tullius, but they don't make that decision. It seems to be mearly speculation that Imperials have made because they think the Empire will fight back. But that doesn't mean it's actually true. "The Nords made the Empire" So what? I hear this argument being used a lot but I fail to see how it holds any weight in a civil war debate. I could assume that point they're trying to make is that since the Nords support the Empire they shouldn't fight it. But what these people don't realize is that the Empire is doing bad to Skyrim now. It doesn't matter if it was created by the Nords, it's doing nothing but allowing the Dominion to oppress the people. Anyway, if the Nords made it, don't they have the right to call quites if they feel it's not working anymore? As the Old Orc said, keeping something past it's usefulness is unnecessary. "The Empire is the best hope for unity in Tamriel". This might sound right on the serface, but the deeper you dig, you'll realize this argument is false & misleading. Since the Empire is of course... an Empire people think they will put all the Provinces together, but this is untrue. The Empire has made enemies with two Provinces. Hammerfell and Morrowind. Hammerfell because they abandoned them when the Dominion was trying to fight them, and Morrowind because they refused to help them with the Argonian invasion. The Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elswyer are all part of the Dominion, so they can't get help from them, Black Marsh has stayed out of the war for a while so I don't think they'll be joining soon. Which means the only two Provinces they have are Skyrim and High Rock. But if the Stormcloaks win not only will they lose Skyrim, but they wouldn't be able to get connection to High Rock. The Stormcloaks on the other hand, seem like they could unify Tamriel. They actually asked High Rock if they wanted to join them, the Redguards have similar ideas to the Stormcloaks, and the Dunmer hate the Empire and the Dominion. If these four nations teamed up to fight an already weak Thalmor, the fight will be a walk in the park. So the Stormcloaks are really the best hope for unity in Tamriel.Worship of Talos Talos was one of the most worshipped Gods of all deities in Skyrim, as the player finds out while he plays the game. However, this worship was forbidden by the White-Gold Concordat between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion to result in piece. Skyrim never decided or was even asked about this. The Empire only uses this as a valid rule since it doesn't want war with the Dominion (Hence the quote from Imperial Soldiers "What the Stormcloaks like to forget is that the Empire is what is keeping the Dominion from Skyrim"). This is obviously not very nice of them. Talos was one of Skyrim's national symbols, essentially. Imagine if you forbid Christianity in America. What would happen? Rants, rebellion since Christanity is so common in America. All Stormcloaks are asking is to get back the fredoom of worship, which, I believe, many would consider normal. People wish to worship whoever they want. The Thalmor don't have any place in saying people what do to, and their reason is not necessarily strong. The position of Talos as a deity is somewhat implied in the game. The player can get his blessing, which improves his stats, essentially proving Talos exists. Normal people can't give blessings through ther shrines, now, can they? So, to conclude, Talos is a very important part of the Nordic culture. However, Imperials forbid it without even consulting with them. Thus, the Stormcloaks have the right to rebell and fight for their rights. __________________________ I'm going to explain why Ulfric isn't a murderer or a bad person. First, I want to note he is a highly trained soldier, a very good leader (seeing how he named a whole army of his name and how loyal it is to him). As for the murderer part, it is heavily implied that, he, in fact, had a fair duel according to the Nordic customs. He didn't use his voice to kill the High King of Skyrim, but his sword. The voice was merely a tool to get him on ground. Thus, he cannot be called a murderer. II know that Ulfric is this honorous Nord, I have two proofs. Not only Ulfric tells this story his way about the duel, but Sybille Stentor as well, the very court wizard of Solitude. She claims she was there when the duel happened. Ulfric challenged the High King and he had no choice but to accept, due to the customs of the Nords. Therefore, this murder wasn't a cold blooded assassination. If Ulfric is killed during the civil war quest, and then the player continued to the main quest, he will see Ulfric in Sovngarde, the Nordic afterlife. And Sovngarde is a place for valiant, courageous Nords. [3] This obviously means Ulfric wasn't a bad Nord, and fought for good.The Empire is dying! “The Empire Brings Peace and Security To Tamriel”. Before I continue, I’d like to point out that even in the Empire’s glory days this wasn’t the case. Ask the Orcs. So ignoring that, lets point out the obvious. These are not the glory days of the Empire and the only real difference between this one and the last was that the last Empire had thicker curtains to cover the problems it had. And then there’s comments like this: How did Morrowind fare with Tiber Septim when he conquered and united the provinces? Alvur Relds: Well, sir, of course, having served with the legions for twenty years, and having carried the Emperor’s standard, I’d like to say he was universally loved and respected. But we aren’t much in furriner-loving line like you Westers, and we don’t thank you for interfering. . I’ve gotten to know some catmen and even lizards in the Service, and some of them are not bad folk. But a people should keep to their own, if you take my meaning. And that’s not the Empire’s way. I look around, I don’t see much benefit from uniting the provinces, unless you’re a fatcat merchant, or maybe a soldier. . http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:Interview_with_a_Dark_Elf. And this:. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Eastern_Provinces. Now, back to the present. The Empire is dying. They have Cyrodiil, High Rock and half of Skyrim. If they won, how would security in their Empire be any better, when they can’t even prevent a bandit uprising within the very heart of their establishment when there wasn’t a civil war? I’m of course referring to Bravil from Cicero’s journal entries. . http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Cicero%27s_Journal. Which I’ll admit, is the only example and evidence of problems in Cyrodiil. Oh, wait:. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Valga_Vinicia. And why isn’t the Council sending Tullius more support? Or Mede? I get that they’re watching the southern border, but surely they have some men to spare from doing this. Tullius seems to think so when he complains about not getting reinforcements. One reason is that the Pale Pass is closed off: The Pale Pass appears on Nataly Dravarol’s map of Skyrim, created in 4E 182, by which time it was once again in use.[6] In 4E 201, the Pale Pass was closed due to avalanches, preventing Imperial reinforcements from helping to secure Falkreath Hold under Imperial control during the Stormcloak Rebellion.[7][8] http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pale_Pass. . But hello, they have ships! This kind of makes me wonder about the Elder Council and who their loyalties lie with. Whether they are just so uncaring of the situation up North because they don’t care about the barbarian Nords, and certainly they can’t defeat the legion! Or, perhaps (perhaps) the Thalmor have a finger in the Council’s honey jar? Which brings me to another point. Mede II. Mede II’s assassination has a lot of implications. For one, there’s the question of who sanctioned it. Is it possible the council did like the DB mission seems to be hinting at? And if so, is it all of the council or just Motierre? Or someone else? Did the Thalmor want it? Or better yet, does any of this matter? In the question of security, no it does not because at the end of the day this is bad regardless unless the Empire pulls a Caesar out of their hat. But this is still a big point against security because even if they do, the transition of power will likely not be peaceful, and regardless, Emperors being assassinated is the biggest red flag against security that you can have, especially in a time of war. If there’s problems like this going on in the seat of power….either way, security being a point for the Empire seems a bit iffy with this going on. . “The Empire is the Best Chance for a Victory Against the Thalmor”. Is it? Are you sure about that? Because I see a few problems with this. First problem is that the Empire has alienated the Redguards by their actions in the great war, and abandoning their province to the Thalmor. That’s going to be an issue when the Thalmor come to fight, because Hammerfell in an Empire Victory unless provoked will likely see no reason to help Cyrodiil if attacked. They’ll have Skyrim, and maybe High Rock, but High Rock has been quiet so we don’t quite know that for sure, and The Empire will be fighting the Thalmor on a one on one front. . Now, in the event of a Stormcloak victory, lets say that Cyrodiil is attacked. Ulfric has made it clear that he intends to take the fight to the Thalmor. And he has been seeking help from High Rock. High Rock may also just be staying quiet to see who will win the great war. If so, that would mean maybe they’ll help either side regardless. Also, Hammerfell is much more likely to side with Skyrim than it is the Empire due to being abandoned. So in the event of a Stormcloak victory, the Redguards have a higher chance of being in the fight. This would put the Thalmor on a multiple front war, and as your high school history class teachers will tell you:. OvC261R.png. “NORDS ARE DEH RACUSTS. Empiyur es deh equalities”. No. The Empire not only is racist, they’re likely as racist as everyone else if not more. Because of how Imperialism works. Imperialism sets up a dominant culture, and the dominant culture is seen as supreme. This makes the members of that culture feel that their culture is necessary for others to function, or that theirs is just better in general. Like this:. racist_general_tullius_by_ysmirstormcrown-d6gabx2.jpg. http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000c347c. Which sounds a lot like:. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/white+man%27s+burden. Replace “white” with Imperial. . That’s a direct quote from Mr. Tullius. Nevermind that he starts respecting the Nords or whatever later (even though he still shows disregard at the end for nord culture when he says “Wherever it is you people go when you die” when talking to Ulfric), this shows the mentality of the Imperials. And make no mistake, that IS racist. And if you say that the Empire doesn’t have as many racists as Skyrim…. . Oh contraire mon frere! . http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Gerich_Senarel. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Wolf_Queen,_v1. Baenlin Dead. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Mach-Na. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Arentus_Falvius. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Isa_Raman. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Dervera_Romalen. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Countess_Alessia_Caro. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Tsavi. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Alessia_Ottus Read all of her books. . http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Julitta_Plotius. http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Betto_Plotius. A Dunmer with an Imperial? Say it ain’t so! http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Glistel http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Malintus_Ancrus. Imperial supporters and their hypocrisy: http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0x000bd71e. So clearly…racism is no better in Cyrodiil. . Closing. Why do you stay with the Empire? Is it emotional? Is it loyalty? Do you like the idea of it and what it claims to be? Honestly I think that real world bias is part of it, I.E. The Romans, but the Roman Empire wasn’t all rainbows and ponies either, and it shows how great their propaganda was that we can still fall into it even in this day. But if I am wrong, please enlighten me. Why is the Empire so worth supporting? . “In 4E 29, the government of Valenwood was overthrown by Thalmor collaborators and a union with Alinor proclaimed. It appears that Thalmor agents had formed close ties to certain Bosmeri factions even before the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire and its Bosmer allies, caught completely off guard, were quickly defeated by the much-better prepared Altmer forces that invaded Valenwood on the heels of the coup. Thus was the Aldmeri Dominion reborn.” -The Great War (book). The Empire allowed themselves to be caught off guard by the Thalmor, and had no idea that they had secretly sided with Bosmer in Valenwood, and was completely taken by surprise when they decided to take it. And now, the civilians in Valenwood are the ones who are paying, as the game has hinted to us through Delphine that the Thalmor are doing some Ethnic Cleansing. Or political purging. After something like this, and after the Khajiit seceded to join the Dominion after they claimed they returned the moons that disappeared (the moons are a big part of Khajiit culture), you’d think the Empire would have taken the Thalmor as a more serious threat. The Blades tried to warn them as well. . Go back a bit and look at Morrowind. During the Oblivion Crisis, the Empire, according to the DLC “Dragonborn”, abandoned their provinces in an attempt to protect Cyrodil: Conversation goes like this I believe: http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0xDB01f2c6 http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0xDB01f2f0 http://cs.uesp.net/index.php?game=sr&formid=0xDB01f2c5. “What can you tell me about House Hlaalu?”. Traitors. The lot of them. Their collaboration with the Empire may have given them unrivaled political and economic strength, but their hearts weren’t with the Dunmer people. They had welcomed the Empire with open arms, and benefited from it. . “I presume that was their downfall.”. Hlaalu deserved every bit of the hatred they received once the Empire released its grasp on Morrowind. . “What happened to house Hlaalu as a result?”. Having past ties to the Empire immediately turned them into the scapegoat for the Dunmer people’s suffering. When everything was said and done, they were no longer recognized as a Great House and were dismissed from the Council. . http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1464160-the-empires-relationship-with-each-province/?p=22784624. They left Morrowind among other provinces unprotected to save themselves, and left everyone to the mercy of the Daedra. Morrowind citizens now resent the Empire despite it not being the same Dynasty. . The developers made it a point for us to see that in game npc’s still treat this Empire as the Third and same Empire, despite this one being the Mede Dynasty.This is likely because even though the Emperor is different, the way the Empire or maybe the Elder Council operates is inherently the same. An example of this is Hammerfell. . . Hammerfell during the Great War was attacked simultaneously with Cyrodiil by the Thalmor. Hammerfell at the time was in a state of constant infighting (note that they interfered in Skyrim’s infighting, but not Hammerfell’s) and were taken by surprise when the Thalmor came in. . Later during the war when the Thalmor sacked the Imperial city, the Empire ordered General Decianus to abandon his post and return to the Imperial City. If it were up to the ones in charge, the Empire would have completely abandoned Hammerfell right then and there. Luckily, the General decided to disobey his order, and discharged a large force of “invalids” to fight in Hammerfell. . All this shows that even though the Empire has not always been under the same dynasty, they still treat their provinces the same. As expendable. Valenwood was a mistake on their part, as the Thalmor took them by surprise, but when you look at all these failings, it is clear that the Empire is just unable to protect their provinces whether it be their fault or not. . After the heroic efforts of the Nords, Imperials and Bretons, even admittedly Titus Mede himself, the Empire finally took back the Imperial city. After this happened, the Empire signed the infamous White Gold Concordat, which would 1. Outlaw Talos Worship, and 2. Give away almost Half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor (admittedly already occupied by the elves.) While the Empire themselves could not afford to fight on, neither could the Thalmor. I used to believe that they could not know the Thalmor were as weak as they were, but the Great War book states that the info in the book was taken from the Thalmor themselves:. Author’s Note: Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers. . And the book clearly states:. . In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. . This means the Empire had a good idea of the Thalmor’s state, but bought into their bluff anyway when they signed the White Gold Concordat. The Redguards of Hammerfell did not wish to give up their land so easy and wanted to fight on. The Empire instead of at least giving supplies to the Redguards or some kind of non combatant support instead just completely dropped Hammerfell as a province. They say they were forced, but the Thalmor, as they apparently knew, could not force anything. . The Thalmor wouldn’t be in any position to assault Cyrodiil for sending supplies even if they wanted to. You may be thinking that the Empire would need those supplies to rebuild, and you’d be right. But the cost of a whole Province being lost is greater than at least meager support of military supplies so Hammerfell could defend itself, and take back it’s land. Now the Empire is out yet another Province, and they only have two, not counting Cyrodiil. . To reiterate: “Much of what is written in this book is pieced together from documents captured from the enemy during the war, interrogation of prisoners, and eyewitness accounts from surviving soldiers and Imperial officers.” K, now read this. “In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself.” Now, there’s no way survivors or eye witnesses could know the info in the second quote, so that means they HAD to have gotten the info DURING the war, as the book said they did, because that is the only time they’d have access to prisoners, and that’s when they would have discovered their documents. This means the Empire KNEW how weak the Dominion was and they still caved. http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1453352-taking-sides-between-imperials-or-stormcloaks-but-what-about-the-orcs-and-forsworn/?p=22489750"Ulfric & the Stormcloaks are racist". Probably the most common argument against the Stormcloaks. But what if I told you this argument was actually wrong? Well, let's go over it shall we? Let's start with the Gray Quarter, most people think that Ulfric forces all of Windhelm's Dunmer to live in the slum known as the Gray Quarter. But with some research you would realize this to be quite untrue. The Dunmer are not forced to live anywhere. The live in nanny for the Cruel-Seas, and the owner of the Hlaalu farm do not. If Ulfric truly wanted to segregate them why do two Dunmer not live there? Consider this, the Dunmer probably moved to Windhelm right after the eruption of the Red Mountain or the Argonian invasion. Both of witch happened before Ulfric was Jarl. So they must've lived in the Gray Quarter before Ulfric was in power. For whatever reason it must've fallen apart and became what it is today. You might be thinking, "Why doesn't Ulfric fix it?" He's in the middle of a war, it's a rebellion fighting an Empire, it's not going to be easy. Another reason is if they did ruin it on their own, it's not Ulfric's responsibility to fix it. If they destroyed it on their own, why would the Jarl have to spend tax payers dollers to fix something that's not even city property? The next is the Argonians, I actually don't think they are completely forbidden from entering the city. It's never said they can't go in at all? It's just said they can't live in it. Maybe they can't live in it because their is no room. Do you know four empty houses in Windhelm they could move into? Also, Shahvee bought an amulet of Zenithar. Where would she have gotten that from? Inside the city perhaps? Finallly, the Khajiit Caravans aren't allowed in any cities, Stormcloak or Imperial. So you can't just blame the Stormcloaks for that. "Ulfric just wants to be High King". This is actually a baseless assumption for the most part. Because nothing in the game shows this. He actually has shown to be the opposite. Just the way I have seen him acting towards Galmar has shown that to me. You could give the argument that he's faking it, but why? Galmar is his second in command, I don't think he would have to hide much from him. I feel that this is a very weak argument with little to no basis in reality. "Ulfric cheated in his duel with Torygg because he used the Thu'um to murder Torygg". What people fail to realize is that it doesn't matter how Ulfric won the duel. It was supposed to show that if the High King couldn't protect himself, how was he supposed to protect Skyrim? Ulfric, a Jarl could do that better then Troygg, a High King. Which shows that Ulfric deserved the position more then Torygg. If someone is trying to hurt Skyrim, they aren't going to try and be fair. They're going to try and destroy it. You as High King should be able to protect it from that. "The Stormcloaks don't stand a chance against the Dominion". First of all, the Nords have been fighting Elves for years. Why would the Dominion be any different? Most would say, "the whole Empire couldn't beat them, how would only the Nords do it?". Actually, though the Empire was wounded, the Dominion was also very weakened. Their main general was killed and every soldier in Cyordiil. That was one of the largest armies ever assmbled in Elven history. And since Elves reproduce slower, they would probably have a much harder time recovering. Hammerfell alone was able to beat them, and they were just as hurt as Cyordiil from the Great War, they also had a civil war between the Crowns and the Forbears before that. So Hammerfell was not in a good position and yet they still beat the Dominion. Why can't Skyrim? Also, they could make an allaince with Hammerfell and the two of them could work together. Also, the Stormcloaks offered High Rock an allaince, they didn't instantly reject them which shows that they might be thinking about it. These three nations would put up one hell of a fight for the Dominion. "The Thalmor Dossier says that Ulfric is a pawn of the Thalmor, so if the Stormcloaks win you're helping the Thalmor". Not entirely true. The reason the Thalmor would consider him an asset is because he might help start a war in Skyrim. That's what the Thalmor want, a long drawn bloody war. They actually say in the Dossier "A Stormcloak victory is to be avoided". If the war is ended quickly the Thalmor won't get the benefit because little lives and resources will have been lost. "In the Bear of Markarth in said that Ulfric tourted innocent people and killed anyone who didn't help him". The Bear of Markarth is pure propaganda. The author is an Imperial scholar as well as a Forsworn sympathizer. If Ulfric truly killed tortued and killed all of those innocents that were on the other side, why doesn't he kill any Jarls or citizens that support the Empire? He actully does out of his way to spear them. Also, if Ulfric truly killed everyone who didn't help him, why isn't he doing that with the Stormcloaks? It would actually go against what they say in game. Galmar says that the Stormcloaks only accept people good, honest, warriors, who actually want to join. Another thing is why doesn't anyone in Cidnha Mine talk about Ulfric? If he did all of these bad things, I'm pretty sure they would have some bad things to say about him, right? But nope, they say nothing about him. "In Sovngarde Ulfric admits his cause was wrong". No, he actually doesn't. He's upset the war started at the time it did because since so many soldiers were dying a lot more souls were in Sovngarde for Alduin to eat. So he's upset about that, nothing about him being wrong. Overall, I feel the Empire was wrong for signing the White-Gold Concordat. They could've beaten the Dominion if they just kept fighting (for the reasons I explained). And I've heard all of these arguments against the Stormcloaks freqently and I just wanted to give my two cents about it.

THink of it as my hand boook.