do you have anything to say about the fact that if you side with the empire, and thus kill ulfric, in sovngarde you find ulfric and he says that looking back on it he feels that his progression was wrong and that he should have reconsidered?
do you have anything to say about the fact that if you side with the empire, and thus kill ulfric, in sovngarde you find ulfric and he says that looking back on it he feels that his progression was wrong and that he should have reconsidered?
Ulfric is an unknowing Thalmor asset simply because he is fighting against the Empire. He isn't actively trying to help the Thalmor, in fact he hates the Thalmor to his very core. It is in the Thalmor's best interest for the Skyrim Civil War to continue without a winner, so the Empire loses more men and supplies and becomes weaker.
They don't want the Stormcloaks to win because of obvious reason. They don't want the Empire to win because that would give them time to recover and regain troops and supplies, the Thalmor doesn't want that.
I'm sorry but when the Empire activally condones the kidnapping and torture of its citizens just because they refuse to give up a piece of their religion, their very culture, it is clearly not in the right. General Tullius himself says at the Thalmor Embassy:
"Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.", "I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks."
When the man that is leading the war against the Stormcloaks says that he is tempted to join the Stormcloaks thanks to the shit happening between the Empire and the Thalmor then you know the Empire is doing some really messed up shit.
He was actively trying to help them up until the Markarth Incident, only when the Thalmor threw Ulfric into his jail did he stop willingly working with them.
The Thalmor don't want an Imperial victory because it harms their overall position in Skyrim they state so themselves.
The Empire doesn't condone it, in fact, Rikke and Hadvar still worship Talos. Not to forget Talos isn't part of the Nordic Religion and sure as hell not part of their culture, since the Nords worship Talos for barely 200 years, possibly even less. That even put aside, it's still Ulfric who is responsible for the Thalmor coming to Skyrim, he's to be blamed.
He's only tempted to do so because he doesn't want to attend her parties, nothing else.
Harold Burned-Mane wrote: I'd say that that is preposterous, due to it completely going against Ulfric's character. As evidence by his last moments during the Imperial Questline, he honestly wanted what was best for Skyrim and believe that what he was doing was right. That isn't the kind of man that would help the Thalmor, when they are the embodiment of everything he is against.
Though hey, they made Captain America a secret Hydra agent so anything is possible. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Maybe Ulfric is trying to lead Skyrim into a trap. Perhaps after the Moot elects him High King he would join the Aldmeri Dominion, the perfect way to successfully incorporate Skyrim into the Dominion's territory, without actually having to fight for it themselves. Giving them a foothold in the north and a direct connection to Hammerfell, who knows what happened between Ulfric and Elenwen back in the Great War days... Cue X-Files Music
Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself... maybe. :P
He was actively trying to help them up until the Markarth Incident, only when the Thalmor threw Ulfric into his jail did he stop willingly working with them.
The Thalmor don't want an Imperial victory because it harms their overall position in Skyrim they state so themselves.
The Empire doesn't condone it, in fact, Rikke and Hadvar still worship Talos. Not to forget Talos isn't part of the Nordic Religion and sure as hell not part of their culture, since the Nords worship Talos for barely 200 years, possibly even less. That even put aside, it's still Ulfric who is responsible for the Thalmor coming to Skyrim, he's to be blamed.
He's only tempted to do so because he doesn't want to attend her parties, nothing else.
Actively trying to help them? Hello, before the Markarth Incident he was in the Great War fighting for the Empire. In that war he was captured and then tortured by Elenwen for information about the Imperial City's defenses. He eventually gave the information, but only after they had already taken the Imperial City. Still, the Thalmor made Ulfric think that he was the cause of the capital falling to the Dominion. After getting out of their captivity he went back to Skyrim and soon after the Markarth Incident happened. Nowhere in that time was he actively trying to help the Thalmor so you must be confused.
PS.: It was the Empire that threw him in jail after the Markarth Incident, at the behest of the Dominion.
The Empire winning doesn't help their plan of weakening the Empire. Their whole position in Skyrim is to weaken the Empire from the inside, by causing divide and strife between its people. They did so with the Redguards and are now doing so with the Nords.
The thing with Rikke and Hadvar may be true but if you've played the quest to rescue the Eorlund's son you know that General Tullius knew that he was kidnapped and being tortured by the Thalmor and did nothing about it. Imperial supporters even helped to kidnap him. To the Nords, Talos is the same as Ysmir. And Ysmir worship has been a thing since the 1st Era, nearly 4000 years ago. Even without counting the Ysmir connection, the Nords have worshiped Talos for around 600 years, ever since Tiber Septim died. Actually it is the Empire that is responsible since they signed the Concordat that let the Thalmor have free reign over Imperial lands in the name of enforcing the concordat. Even if Ulfric didn't start his rebellion the Thalmor would still be in the province for the sake of routing out Talos worshipers, since the god's worship is very common in Skyrim.
Excuse me, but did you read the quotes. He admits that some of the things that Ulfric claims are in fact true and is clearly not a fan of the whole Thalmor-Empire relationship. He seems to hate it so much that he is tempted to switch sides to be able to fight the Thalmor instead of be at their beck and call. He would never do such a thing thanks to his loyalty for the Empire, but he understands that the Thalmor are dragging the Empire's name through the dirt thanks to their shit.
Actively trying to help them? Hello, before the Markarth Incident he was in the Great War fighting for the Empire. In that war he was captured and then tortured by Elenwen for information about the Imperial City's defenses. He eventually gave the information, but only after they had already taken the Imperial City. Still, the Thalmor made Ulfric think that he was the cause of the capital falling to the Dominion. After getting out of their captivity he went back to Skyrim and soon after the Markarth Incident happened. Nowhere in that time was he actively trying to help the Thalmor so you must be confused.
PS.: It was the Empire that threw him in jail after the Markarth Incident, at the behest of the Dominion.
The Empire winning doesn't help their plan of weakening the Empire. Their whole position in Skyrim is to weaken the Empire from the inside, by causing divide and strife between its people. They did so with the Redguards and are now doing so with the Nords.
The thing with Rikke and Hadvar may be true but if you've played the quest to rescue the Eorlund's son you know that General Tullius knew that he was kidnapped and being tortured by the Thalmor and did nothing about it. Imperial supporters even helped to kidnap him. To the Nords, Talos is the same as Ysmir. And Ysmir worship has been a thing since the 1st Era, nearly 4000 years ago. Even without counting the Ysmir connection, the Nords have worshiped Talos for around 600 years, ever since Tiber Septim died. Actually it is the Empire that is responsible since they signed the Concordat that let the Thalmor have free reign over Imperial lands in the name of enforcing the concordat. Even if Ulfric didn't start his rebellion the Thalmor would still be in the province for the sake of routing out Talos worshipers, since the god's worship is very common in Skyrim.
Excuse me, but did you read the quotes. He admits that some of the things that Ulfric claims are in fact true and is clearly not a fan of the whole Thalmor-Empire relationship. He seems to hate it so much that he is tempted to switch sides to be able to fight the Thalmor instead of be at their beck and call. He would never do such a thing thanks to his loyalty for the Empire, but he understands that the Thalmor are dragging the Empire's name through the dirt thanks to their shit.
After the war contact was established between Ulfric and the Thalmor, so yes, he was directly trying to aid them.
He wasn't captured for Talos worship but because he fought alongside the Stormcloaks, in fact, there's no evidence, whatsoever that Thorald was a Talos worshipper. The Nords worship Talos for 201 years or less, they didn't worship Talos in the Third Era. The Thalmor could only come with an excuse, which is what Ulfric gave them.
And we don't know what he is exactly referring to, he might just be referring to the fact that they should be fighting the Thalmor instead of one another. The Thalmor don't rule over the Empire.
He never says anything of the sort. He simly regrets allowing Alduin to go unchallenged. Legate Rikke says the same thing when you meet her in Sovngarde.
Ulfric is an unknowing Thalmor asset simply because he is fighting against the Empire. He isn't actively trying to help the Thalmor, in fact he hates the Thalmor to his very core. It is in the Thalmor's best interest for the Skyrim Civil War to continue without a winner, so the Empire loses more men and supplies and becomes weaker.
They don't want the Stormcloaks to win because of obvious reason. They don't want the Empire to win because that would give them time to recover and regain troops and supplies, the Thalmor doesn't want that.
I'm sorry but when the Empire activally condones the kidnapping and torture of its citizens just because they refuse to give up a piece of their religion, their very culture, it is clearly not in the right. General Tullius himself says at the Thalmor Embassy:
"Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.", "I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks."
When the man that is leading the war against the Stormcloaks says that he is tempted to join the Stormcloaks thanks to the shit happening between the Empire and the Thalmor then you know the Empire is doing some really messed up shit.
The Thalmor don't want an Imperial victory because it harms their overall position in Skyrim they state so themselves.
The Empire doesn't condone it, in fact, Rikke and Hadvar still worship Talos. Not to forget Talos isn't part of the Nordic Religion and sure as hell not part of their culture, since the Nords worship Talos for barely 200 years, possibly even less. That even put aside, it's still Ulfric who is responsible for the Thalmor coming to Skyrim, he's to be blamed.
He's only tempted to do so because he doesn't want to attend her parties, nothing else.
Talos goes by the name Ysmir in the nords belief which anyone who knows even an ounce of lore knows that the nords has believed in before the empire even believed in talos. To add to this Dragonborn and the like were prone to be Nords and the Septim empire was based off of a dragonborn linitige, meaning that the Septims were most likely actual nords in roots. as for on topic the dominion is at fault, however both the empire and the stormcloaks had plenty of chances to not follow prophacy. Then you have the thought process of that the war split skyrim cleanly down the middle for which side to join, if you remember 4 of the 5 cities that the empire has control of either are partially or forcefully held by the empire, this means that the split would actually be more of 7/9ths in favor of the stormcloaks without counting those who didn't care for the war, Balgruuf, the empire had at best 22% of the population of skyrim fighting for them. In conclusion it is hardly a house divided, if anything it is almost completely on sided and a war between 2 regions. ( Cyrodiil VS Skyrim) With 2 of the other regions out of the empire, not including the dominion states, you would have to look at the other 2 regions to decide if they would help, the breton & orc, who have shown no love for either the empire or the thalmor, and the dunmer who are currently recovering from the Red Mountain eruption, the empire in the war was really just a handful of nords and the imperials of Cyrodiil, and a stormcloak victory would represent that the empire caved in way too early in the great war.
I just want to interject to say that Ysmir has historically been more of a title (attributions to Wulfharth, Pelinal Whitestrake, Tiber Septim, and the Last Dragonborn), so that is to say that the Nords culturally venerated those who had the title and not Talos himself until those who would be known as Ysmir were regarded as being aspects of Talos who was apotheosized into the Imperial Pantheon and adopted by the contemporary Nordic culture (3E 38 at the earliest) and had not previously been an explicit part of the Nordic Pantheon.
Dragonborn have not necessarily been likely to be any particular race. Miraak was a Nord, but Alessia was a Nede, Reman Cyrodiil was likely an Imperial, Tiber Septim may have been a Nord, but conflicting information suggests that he was a Breton or Atmoran, and the Last Dragonborn could be any of nine races. I also don’t know what you mean when you say that the Stormcloaks had plenty of chances not to follow prophecy. How?
Territorial nodes (cities, towns, etc.) controlled by one belligerent of a civil war are typically held by a military force and not by popular regency to prevent insurgency with the exception of areas where the population is naturally supportive (Solitude for the Empire and Windhelm for the Stormcloaks). This doesn’t mean that the Empire is an occupying force as the Stormcloaks employ the same militaristic control over demographic centres for the same purpose. There is nothing to indicate that the Empire is so unpopular as to be significantly out of favour with the population particularly given that the Empire has an active recruiting pool of enlisted soldiers from Skyrim’s population, especially if hold guards are included. There is no way you can make a prediction of 22% with even a generous margin of error given that it seems you are making the false assumption that the holds each have an equivalent population to each other and that the populations of said holds all have 100% support for any particular faction. I would like to know your methodology, otherwise.
Nothing you have provided has adequately proven your conclusion. In regards to assistance from other provinces, High Rock is a territory of the Empire and thus has it’s recruiting pools open to the Legion (including via conscription) and likely has been redeploying and detaching battalions into Skyrim, and Orsimer are often known to join the Legion in Skyrim and willing provide support since the Bretons and Redguards sacked Orsinium and it was the Seventh and Fifteenth Legions that voluntarily suffered casualties in defence of the Orsimer exodus into Skyrim. The Empire, twenty-odd years following the Great War, cannot be said to be a weak or incapable force, only that they are spread thin which explains the lack of asymmetry in the Civil War. It is likely possible for the Empire to completely eliminate the Stormcloaks with a consolidated war effort, but this would detract too significantly from the defence of the Empire elsewhere in the face of the Aldmeri Dominion.
Xelistren wrote:
Ulfric is an unknowing Thalmor asset simply because he is fighting against the Empire. He isn't actively trying to help the Thalmor, in fact he hates the Thalmor to his very core. It is in the Thalmor's best interest for the Skyrim Civil War to continue without a winner, so the Empire loses more men and supplies and becomes weaker.
They don't want the Stormcloaks to win because of obvious reason. They don't want the Empire to win because that would give them time to recover and regain troops and supplies, the Thalmor doesn't want that.
I'm sorry but when the Empire activally condones the kidnapping and torture of its citizens just because they refuse to give up a piece of their religion, their very culture, it is clearly not in the right. General Tullius himself says at the Thalmor Embassy:
"Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.", "I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks."
When the man that is leading the war against the Stormcloaks says that he is tempted to join the Stormcloaks thanks to the shit happening between the Empire and the Thalmor then you know the Empire is doing some really messed up shit.
The Thalmor don't want an Imperial victory because it harms their overall position in Skyrim they state so themselves.
The Empire doesn't condone it, in fact, Rikke and Hadvar still worship Talos. Not to forget Talos isn't part of the Nordic Religion and sure as hell not part of their culture, since the Nords worship Talos for barely 200 years, possibly even less. That even put aside, it's still Ulfric who is responsible for the Thalmor coming to Skyrim, he's to be blamed.
He's only tempted to do so because he doesn't want to attend her parties, nothing else.
Talos goes by the name Ysmir in the nords belief which anyone who knows even an ounce of lore knows that the nords has believed in before the empire even believed in talos. To add to this Dragonborn and the like were prone to be Nords and the Septim empire was based off of a dragonborn linitige, meaning that the Septims were most likely actual nords in roots. as for on topic the dominion is at fault, however both the empire and the stormcloaks had plenty of chances to not follow prophacy. Then you have the thought process of that the war split skyrim cleanly down the middle for which side to join, if you remember 4 of the 5 cities that the empire has control of either are partially or forcefully held by the empire, this means that the split would actually be more of 7/9ths in favor of the stormcloaks without counting those who didn't care for the war, Balgruuf, the empire had at best 22% of the population of skyrim fighting for them. In conclusion it is hardly a house divided, if anything it is almost completely on sided and a war between 2 regions. ( Cyrodiil VS Skyrim) With 2 of the other regions out of the empire, not including the dominion states, you would have to look at the other 2 regions to decide if they would help, the breton & orc, who have shown no love for either the empire or the thalmor, and the dunmer who are currently recovering from the Red Mountain eruption, the empire in the war was really just a handful of nords and the imperials of Cyrodiil, and a stormcloak victory would represent that the empire caved in way too early in the great war.
Ysmir the God is not Talos the god. Read Varieties of Faith in the Empire. Ysmir is his Nordic aspect.
The Septims were also most certainly not "Nords in roots", Tiber Septim came from High Rock, and the vast majority of his descendants were Imperials who were schooled by the Bretons. Only a handful of Nord Emperors, if it's even a handful, existed under the Septims.
The Empire isn't forcing any Hold to be on their side, what kind of nonsense is that? The Legion in Skyrim is locally recruited because Cyrodiil refuses to send over troops, have you not been paying attention?
(Sorry for jumping slightly off topic for a bit) Someone (this 1 I'm quoting) needs to study their Lore.
The Falmer didn't and i repeat DIDN'T Destroy the Dwemer.
Go back and read the in-game books. 1 such book will point you in the right direction.
If memory serves me right, it was Azura who made them vanish.
Even though Arniel Gane's quest does raise doubts as he tries to attemt to teleport himself to them but fails and gets turned into a shade (should of used the Heart of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezzar (same Divine) instead i reckon).
That's firstly.......
Secondly..........
Ysgramor DIDN'T go to Saarthal from Sovengarde with his 500 Companions..
From Atmora he made the trip (again mate, read the bloody books).
.........................................................................................................................................................................
Anyway back to the topic at hand.
Ulfric definitely went about things all wrong.
It did indeed give the elves (namely the Aldmeri Dominion) more of a hold on Skyrim.
Talos of Atmora was made a Divine unintentionally due to The Underking (King Wulfhearth).
So there technically are still 9 Divines. Talos made 10 if you count the Missing Divine who is missing from Soverngarde when you go to kick Alduin's arse. The clue(s) as to why Shor/Shezzar/Lorkhan is missing from Soverngarde is also in the books.
His Body as well as his Heart are underneath Red Mountain (Dagoth-Ur)....
Therefore his spirit is trapped literally & figuratively (hence the continuing & unending ash spewing out of Red Mountain constantly).
My new & current play-through I'm going to kick his (Ulfric's) arse again and shout him to near death like he did High King Torryg and then gut him with my Stahlrim Dagger like he deserves.
He only said that in regards to Alduin you idiot.