It was my understanding that After the Akaviri invasion the first empire granted amnesty to them and assimilated them into Imperial culture. I used to think these were men, but if they were Tsaesci where are their descendants?
- I believe they were all driven off of Tamriel or killed. From The Imperial Library:
- 2E 430
- The latest ruler of Second Empire, Potentate Savirien-Chorak, and every one of his heirs is murdered by The Dark Brotherhood/Morag Tong. This marks the end of the Second Empire.
- Source: Pocket Guide to the Empire (1st Edition): Cyrodiil, The Brothers of Darkness.
- 2E 431
- Civil wars and insurrection dissolve the Tamrielic Empire.
- Thus it is safe to assume that after the Tsaesci royal family was assassinated and civil wars started, that the remaining armies and populace were killed and driven off the continent and back to Akavir. It is also noted that forces from Akavir invaded Morrowind in 2E 572, in which Vivec flooded Morrowind after teaching his people to breath water to kill off the invaders, though it does not specify that the invaders were Tsaesci.
- Vivec (Master of Morrowind): Warrior-poet god of the Dunmer. Vivec is the invisible keeper of the holy land, ever vigilant against the dark gods of the Volcano. He/she has saved the Dunmeri people from certain death on numerous occasions, most notably when he/she taught them how to breathe water for a day so that he/she could flood Morrowind and kill the Akaviri invaders, ca. 2E572.
- Imperial rule is re-established about 450 years after the Tsaesci royal family was assassinated, by Emporer Tiber Septim, beginning the Third Era and the Septim Dynasty, so it is safe to assume by this point that there are no Tsaesci left on Tamriel, at least not with significant numbers. \*\ Hellhound43 14:04, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
- Right, i try to know my Tamriel history and from thesame page it reads: Akaviri surnames are rare and prized possessions among the Cyrodilic citizenry of today, and there are trace facial features of the Akaviri in many distinguished Cyrodilic families. Some colonies of "true Akaviri" still exist in both the Empire and its border regions, but they are named so only for their practices and customs than for the purity of their blood.
- Also the rule of Men lasted for 2 more centuries in the 1st era after giving amnesty to an akaviri army (!!). This should leave enough time for them to reproduce. So am I to understand that Imperials apperently have some degree of snake blood?
- And finally in the book origins of the fighters guild it even states that the fighters guild began by only taking in Akavirians, as the fighters guild is formed somewhere in the 4th century of the 2nd era this would require some akaviri population. If these are snakes, wouldn't we see more of that in pictures or even armor? Timmetie 14:18, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
- Possibly, though I've never really pictured the Tsaesci as being very human-like I'm probably wrong about that then. As far as the Fighters Guild is concerned don't forget that it was formed before the assassination of the Tsaesci royal family, so there would be significant Tsaesci populations at that point. If I remember correctly, they started hiring men into the guild when there was so much demand for the services of the guild that they could not get enough manpower to handle the contracts just with Tsaesci members. I would imagine that sometime shortly after the assassination that men would have taken over the Fighters Guild as well. \*\ Hellhound43 14:28, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
Well, you are still left with 6 centuries of strong akaviri presence that I can't seem to find any ingame information on. I mean, if they are really snake people, current noblemen should at least have tails. I could have made a joke about spineless people here but I chose not to. I can't really imagen the Morag Tong and especially the dark brotherhood killing off every akaviri, especially as it's now considered an honorary thing to be descendant from akaviri in noble circles (proving public sentiment was in favor of Akaviri) and there would have been little profit.
Bah, i just found this in the imperial library: During the following centuries, Tamriel is cast into chaos, but the Akaviri do not play an important role in history.
Apperently the good folks at the imperial library just accept that a race completely alien to men who apperently interbred and left much of current day culture behind completely dissapear from the picture after one royal family is murdered. I mean, thats like 800 years before the games, thats like we never heard of the .... darn it i can't even find a proper comparison :D Timmetie 14:47, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
O, and check out Lifting the Vale, the akaviri commander appears to be human. I've never done the quest but i'm going to now. Think there's a chance the Akaviri invasion might have been Akaviri men? Timmetie 14:51, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
- Possibly, but I do remember reading in the book 2920, vol 01 - Morning Star about the tournament between Prince Juliek and Savierien-Chorak in the last year of the First Era, on the 14th of Morning Star. Perhaps they had scaly skin but no tail? Heh, I'm not sure. Perhaps you should ask Kutulu, he may have some insight. \*\ Hellhound43 14:58, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
- That book doesn't give any clue either, only that it uses the word "Slithers" to describe Savierien-Chorak's combat moves. I'm guessing Kutulu will be reading this, ill await the wisdom ;) Timmetie 15:55, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
- My guess, based on a lot of reading, is that there are both men and snake-people living on Akavir in the kingdom of Tsaesci. I did note that Tsaesci appears to be a place, not the name of a particular race, which may be part of the confusion. The Annotated Anuad lists the "men" of Nirn:
the Nords of Atmora, the Redguards of Yokuda, and the Tsaesci of Akavir.
- Apart from that, we have a couple of sources. Obviously there is Mysterious Akavir, though I get the impression that book isn't terribly reliable. This is the source of the claim that the snakes of Tsaesci are "vampiric" and "ate" men:
Akavir is the kingdom of the beasts. No Men or Mer live in Akavir, though Men once did. These Men, however, were eaten long ago by the vampiric Serpent Folk of Tsaesci.
- The 2920 book do make clear that the Tsaesci that invaded Tamriel, and a few hundred years later actually ruled Tamriel, at the end of the Second Era were snake-men. Some choice quotes:
(Volume One, describing the Potentate's son): a glistening ivory-yellow eel, gripping his katana and wakizashi with his thin, deceptively weak looking arms.
(Volume One, describing the battle): When Savirien-Chorak was rearing back to begin another series of blinding attacks, the Prince kicked at his tail, sending him falling back momentarily. In an instant, he had rebounded, but the Prince was also back on his feet. The two circled one another, until the snake man spun forward, katana extended.
(Volumn Three, Emporer & Potentate talking): The Potentate took no offense. He knew that “beastfolk” referred to the natives of Tamriel, not to the Tsaesci of Akavir like himself.
(Volume Six, Potentate tells Emporer of Vivec's defeat): “Brilliant!” the Emperor crowed. “You are a wonderous tactician, Versidue-Shaie! If your fathers had been as good at this as you are, Tamriel would be Akaviri domain!” The Potentate had not planned to take credit for Prince Juilek's design, but on the Emperor's reference to his people's fiasco of an invasion two hundred and sixteen years ago, he made up his mind. He smiled modestly and soaked up the praise.
- The most historically reliable account, though, comes from Report: Disaster at Ionith, describing Uriel V's invasion, and it gives every indication that Akavir is populated by humans. The report describes how, in the early part of the, invasion "the legions were constantly shadowed by mounted enemy patrols". I suppose it's possible for the snake-men to ride horses, but would seem difficult and pointless, since 2920 implies that they can move quickly and silently across the ground. Later, while the Tsaesci are trying to assassinate the Emperor, we are told "Once the alarm was raised, the Tsaesci inside the city were hunted down and killed to the last man." It's interesting to note that never, in the entire report, does the word "snake" appear.
- My personal conclusion would be that the snake-men and humans jointly occupy the kingdom of Tsaesci on Akavir. It appears that their armies are mostly made up of humans, while their nobility or leadership is made up of the snake men. Kutulu 14:11, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
Ok, I've completely changes my mind in the past 10 minutes. Checking the Pocket Guide again and re-reading the sidebar on Akavir, I'm gonna have to say that the whole snake-people thing was just a legend made up well after the Second Empire was over. The Akaviri warriors were the source of dragonscale armor, which could easily lead to a derogatory term like 'snake-men', which over centuries became legends about real snake-men. I would now probably contend that the author of 2920 was taking major poetic license, and the Tsaesci were just men. (I'm also gonna fix the Tsaesci article.) Kutulu 14:16, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
So we're changing it because you've changed your mind? the second empire was about 800 years ago, there are people still alive that old in Tamriel, there is no way a story would have had the time to gain mythic exagerations by then. And the pocket guide to the empire is even earlyer. Timmetie 15:12, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
- My main complaint is that there is little enough information about Akavir in general, and the Tsaesci in particular, and what we do have seems to contradict itself. From reading the few sources I came across, the evidence for the snake-men being real seems a bit less credible than the evidence against.
- Basically, the only references I can find to the actual inhabitants of Akavir are: The Annotated Anuad, Mysterious Akavir, 2920, Report: Disaster at Ioneth, and the Pocket Guide to the Empire (I only have the 3rd edition Oblivion one). I'd consider the Pocket Guide the most definitive, give that its purpose was for Bethesda to provide additional information from their own source material that you may not be able to find in-game. Unfortunately, the pocket guide merely refers to the Tsaesci as 'the so-called "Snake People"', gives no indication if this was a literal or figurative nickname, and warns that almost everything we know about Akavir should be taken with a grain of salt. So that one's not much help.
- On the pro-snake-people side, we have one book that outright declares the Tsaesci to be vampire snake people that ate all the humans. Unfortunately, Mysterious Akavir isn't considered credible even within the game, and I've typically seen it described as "inaccurate or unfounded information about Akavir." 2920 is a little more down to earth, but there are some problems with this one too. We have no idea who wrote it or when it was published, for one thing. More importantly, it's written in the style of a narrative story, and primarily concerned with what was going on with the Tribunal in Morrowind. The author's depiction of the Tsaesci might be first-hand, or it might be based entirely on word of mouth handed down over generations and twisted along the way.
- On the anti-snake-people side, we have two more "academic" or "scholarly" books, but the evidence in them isn't as direct. The Annotated Anuad is supposed to be a religious teaching text, and specifically lists the Tsaesci as one of the "men" of Nirn. The Ioneth report is, IMO, the most credible source we have, as it was written by people who would have had credible second-hand information, via the Imperial Battle Mages, of events on Akavir itself, and with the specific purpose of being an accurate depiction of the Akavir invasion. It also uses the term "men" to describe the Akaviri army, and describes them as mounted, and also discusses the nobility of Akavir. Nowhere in the entire document does the term "snake men" appear. Given how apologetic the report was towards Uriel's failure, even proposing what the authors considered "wild" and "unsubstantiated" theories, I can't imagine it wouldn't have included a provable fact that Uriel was facing strange, vampiric snake people instead of humans.
- What, to me, tips the scales is how much credit the Tsaesci are given for modern Imperial culture. If Tsaesci sur-names are "prized" by the Cyrodiilic nobility, it means that Imperials in the early Second Era were inter-breeding with Tsaesci, and that the Tsaesci were considered the dominant partner (thus passing their name on to their children). We also know that the Tsaesci were responsible for starting the Fighter's Guild, and training most of the military forces in Cyrodiil, including the Emporer's personal guard. Parts of the Empire can't even bring itself to consider Argonians as "real" people, and they look almost human; hell, half the time the mer and the men can't even get along. It makes no sense that this same culture would accpet half-human-looking snake people, who invaded their country, and immediately make them into some of its most respected citizens in a few hundred years.
- Right, i see your story and raise you my own
http://til.gamingsource.net/yabb/YaBB.pl?num=1179167108/5#5 I mean the records of snakes are 800 years old and the records of men are way older.. there's people older than 800 years still alive in Tamriel. Read my bit there i'd like to know what you think of it. I think the human slave bit is a bit too easy an explanation.
- That's certainly as valid an explanation as any other, given the sorely lacking amount of information we have. I'll fully admit that there's too many references to snake-men to discount it completely, but it's concerning that there's no physical evidence anywhere of their existence. I had even forgotten about the Pale Pass remains, which represent the only time we've ever seen an Akaviri in-game, and he's clearly human. At worst, this refutes Mysterious Akavir; even if your enslavement theory is true (and it was the first thing that occurred to me, too), obviously all of the men on Akavir weren't eaten long ago. I also would expect to see some snake-related depictions of Blades or Fighter's Guild members, or some type of snake-like armor, or something, anything, that is clearly meant for a non-human snake-like sentient being. Instead, Bethesda's one chance to show us an Akaviri and we get an Imperial-looking ghost and a humanoid skeleton.
- I think we need to be careful using Mysterious Akavir to defend anything, in particular, as I'm not sure how reliable it is. The 3rd edition of the pocket guide says this about the contents of that book:
It is from this era that we know most of what we do know of the land of Akavir. In addition to the Tsaesci, Akavir is said to be home to several other bestial and peculiar creatures: the monkets of Tang Mo, the snow demons of Kamal, and the tiger dragons of Ka Po'Tun. It should be noted that these various races of Akaviri have never been sighted by modern scholars. While tales that survive for the Akaviri Potentate describe these races in detail, it is unknown how literally they should be taken, given the possible mistranslation of the complex Tsaesci language.
- The frustration here is that the PGE does mention other bestial races as being men with "rat-like" or "canine-like" features, but doesn't have any real description of the Tsaesci other than the phrase so-called "Akaviri Snakemen". The simplest explanation is that they're just that, snake men, and I'm not as convinced anymore that they aren't. But the way it's phrased could just as easily mean that they weren't really snakes, but were just called that by the Imperials.
- I did recall at least one quest-related journals (not books) in Oblivion that talk about the Tsaesci, and I've saved every journal I picked up, so I might be able to find more first-hand accounts. I can't remember exactly what, I THINK it was in Shivering Isles, the Orc that you get Dawnfang/Duskfang from (who can't spell Tsaesci). More on this later :) But in the mean time, I agree with you that the Tsaesci article needs to be much less definitive about the nature of the Tsaesci, and since you seem to be partial to them, I'd like to see what you can come up with to flesh it out a bit. Kutulu 18:22, 18 May 2007 (CDT)
- By the way, going back up to something mentioned way earlier in this discussion, according to the Imperial Library's Guide To Akavir, the invasion of Morrowind was not a Tsaesci invasion; it references The Arcturian Heresy as saying it was a Snow Demon, though, again, our sources of Akaviri information are found in books of questionable credibility. This is clearly intentional on the part of Bethesda to confuse the crap out of us. Kutulu 18:25, 18 May 2007 (CDT)
- Actually my theory (did you read it?) would explain the imperial looking ghost without dismissing the snake-theory. Please just read the piece and the bits below it as i've worked pretty long on it ;). Having said that I'm not sure what to put in the article, safest bet is to say we don't know and don't report assumptions as facts (my guess is just as good, maby even worse as others) but we could however freely put in all the different explanations. I myself favor my explanation because it would keep a shape shifting vampiric super powerfull race in the game instead of human slaves but thats not a real argument ;).
- Also the snow demons are inhabitants of Akavir as they are gathered into 1 nation and occasionally ruled by 1 entity. so I guess it could count as an Akavirian invasionTimmetie 10:26, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
- Yeah, I did read it, and it's very well thought out. I think you already hit on the major drawback, that it's basically making up an "easy" explanation to fit all of the facts but without much supporting evidence. It was sort-of what I was envisioning when I first replied in here, though yours is much more detailed :). I noticed on the Imperial Library there's something from Michael Kirkbride on the Tsaesci creation myth which seems to kinda mesh with your theory, to a point, but appears to conclude with the Tsaesci taking on a single, final form that I think would be most relevant to a current article. Of course, most of his writing is so bizarre and figurative that its pretty useless in terms of real history. :\
- I think we can have the possibility of a snake-like race enslaving a human-like race without any shapeshifting needed. I'm picturing basically your scenario, but the snakes are and always have been half-man-half-snake people. But instead of literally "eating" all the men on Akavir, they enslaved the entire race and turned them into their armies and labor classes. In a situation like this, the Potentate, as a high-ranking Tsaesci noble, would be snake like as described in 2920, but the bulk of their military would by humans, thus explaining the Fighter's Guild, Pale Pass, etc.
- I think the article, at a high level, should describe the two prevailing theories (they are snake men, they aren't), and a few explanations as to where the confusion comes from (there are both in Tsaesci and the humans are enslaved; the snakes can shape-shift; the term "snake man" wasn't originally taken literally but was just a nickname for the dragon riding, scale-armored men, etc.) And it definitely needs to clearly indicate that no one knows for sure, because no one alive on Tamriel today has ever been to Akavir; in fact, with the Tribunal all being presumed dead, I don't think anyone alive on Tamriel has ever SEEN an Akaviri.
- The elves live that long right? and the tribunal at least would have seen some live Akaviri. We'll just have to agree to disagree as i'll stick to my theory :) but what im asking is, wiki-wise, should we start putting in theories (clearly labelled as such) cause there could potentially be thousands. Or just put in we don't know. The 2nd option is probably the most honest and true but the first option would liven up both the debate and information given in the article. Just say the word as I can give the theory on both your and my side with quite some detail. Timmetie 21:05, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
- Well, that's a whole different debate, but at least tangentially relevant to the discussion. If there are living elves who are only a generation or two removed from the Tsaesci invasions, then that lends more credence to 2920, as you'd expect Dunmer to quickly correct any errors relating to their Tribuanl, and it would give the author first or second hand references to work with.
- I don't think the elves typically live for 800+ years. I get the impression that some do, such as the Telvanni wizards (especially those that extend their lives through mystical means), but that the near-1000 year old Telvanni are considered extraordinary cases. Barenziah was considered elderly at 500. Add to that the fact that the elves, especially during the First Era, weren't nearly as integrated into the Empire as they are today (they'd just been kicked out!), and that the Akavir apparently came straight through Skyrim to Cyrodiil, it's possible that few elves actually saw a Tsaesci. The Akavir that invaded Morrowind were apparently not Tsaesci. The people most likely to have seen an actual Tsaesci would have been the Tribunal, when Cyrodiil tried to invade Morrowind, at treaty signings and such.
- But that's really not that major of an issue, since even if there are tons of elves around that lived through the Second Era, they don't seem to be talking to anyone about the Tsaesci. I skimmed the UESP, the Imperial Library, and some random webboards and took what seemed to be the most common theories about the Tsaesci and put them into the article. Please make sure I got your theory correct :) You're right that we can't really start adding every idea someone comes up with that just happens to fit the facts, since it's all fictitious anyway and there's no way to "verify" anything short of waiting for the next game to come out. But there does seem to be at least some consensus among the disagreements as to what the most likely explanations are. Kutulu 21:47, 19 May 2007 (CDT)
- There have been a few hints that they might have originally looked east-asian, the references to katana's (origianlly samari/ninja weapons) and the fact that Cloud Ruler temple in oblivion looks very similar to traditional chinese temples, though thats just speculation :L TheJ00baby (talk) 00:26, December 20, 2012 (UTC)