Race[]
In The Madness of Pelagius, it is confirmed that Cassynder is the son of Pelagius and Katariah. The Armorer's Challenge confirms that Katariah was the only Dunmer to ever rule Tamriel. Brief History of the Empire, Book II confirms that Pelagius was a Breton. None of this information is disputed on this page. However, the final result in the infobox is innacurate. He is definitively not a Dunmer per The Armorer's Challenge, since he ruled Tamriel, he shouldn't be listed as 'either a Breton, a Dunmer, or anything else' as it currently is, which is already unhelpful as "Breton or Unknown" citing that pre-Cephorus II emperors were either Breton or raised in High Rock is useless. If he could be Breton but also could not be, why put that info there at all?
Regardless, Cassynder should be listed as what I had him as, a half-Breton half-Dunmer. The second edit removing my version claimed original research. Where is this original research? Everything I pulled was from the text. He is definitively not Dunmer per The Armorer's Challenge as it states Katariah was the only Dunmer Imperial Monarch, and definitively not Breton per Brief History of the Empire, Book II as it states he aged "like a Breton". Use a synonym here, "similarly to a Breton", therefore not a Breton himself. This isn't original research, this is just taking the text at its literal meaning which is what any good wiki should do. To solidify this, he's directly called half-elven.
And as a final note, Cassynder still fullfills the contigent cited from The Fall of the Usurper of spending his pre-Emperor life in High Rock since he was the King of Wayrest. Mindtrait0r (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- We know awfully little about where the Septim Emperors grew up - and only a bare handful have their races stated. Having some indication on what their race may have been is useful in the absence of other sources.
- As for the race in the infobox - people are only one "race" in TES. You can have traits of the other parent present, but they are still only one or the other. Look at Agronak gro-Malog - he is an Orc. His pale skin? A trait coming from his vampiric father. Does that make him a vampire? No. It does not. He is still an Orc.
- Blademaster Jauffre (talk) 20:20, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- You've got it wrong, that is a common misconception based on generic dialogue from Morrowind. The truth is that there are several instances of hybrids in TES, people who are multiracial and fall inbetween two or more races. We even have a category for multiracial characters on this wiki which you removed from the page. The most definitive instance of such an individual is Jagar Tharn. Others include Aeliah Remnus, Sinmur, Mankar Camoran, Bacaro Volorus, Ulfsild, and of course the Proto-Bretons (ancestors of the modern Bretons which were true Manmer, heavily elven in appearance) Mindtrait0r (talk) 20:43, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- One race characters should only be from a specific game, since we can confirm it through Creation Kit and other similar tools. Lore only characters are an exception and can be categorized as mixed race, if their parents are from different races. --Rupuzioks (talk) 20:58, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- "People who are multiracial", that is not how it works. They are one race with traits of the other. "Mixed" race in the sense of someone being "two races" is not a thing in TES. The only people classified as "two races" on wikis are people whose race has not been found yet in the Creation Kits. The "proto-Bretons" were still Man. Just like how Bretons themselves are.
- Also, it isn't just based on generic dialogue (though said dialogue comes from Savants, aka, people from wide learning), but it is also stated in Notes on Racial Phylogeny.
- Blademaster Jauffre (talk) 22:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Wrong. Racial Phylogeny states that generally the children bear the race of the mother. This is why I said the misconception came from dialogue, as the dialogue does say that children always take theirm other's race which is verifiably untrue. Again, one need only look at Jagar Tharn to dispel any notion that people are always one hard race. He's part Dunmer, part Altmer, part Bosmer, and descended from Imperials. There is no rationalization for this information when operating under the strict guidelines of inheriting the mother's race. There's also instances of people inheriting their father's race, like Virkmund in Skyrim who was a Nord like his father unlike his Breton mother. Mindtrait0r (talk) 22:28, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Tell me where in lore the race of the parents of Jagar Tharn are stated. Unsure why you are getting hung up on people take on their mother's race when the topic is people being "multi racial". Fyi, all the instances of infoboxes with two races listed are fanmade. Nowhere in a game's construction set - least of all a game like Arena - are characters listed as two races. It is one or the other. Whether they are the race of the father or of the mother is irrelevant in that regard.
- Blademaster Jauffre (talk) 22:50, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Per The Real Barenziah "I just don't trust that mongrel Elf. Part Dark Elf, part High Elf, and part the gods only know what. All the worst qualities of all his combined bloods, I'll warrant. No one knows much about him. Claims he was born in southern Valenwood, of a Wood Elven mother." [...] "[He's] of Ebonheart, of the Ra'athim Clan - House Hlaalu, the House of Mora in particular, I'll be bound. That house has had human blood in it since her time."
- There you have it, a mongrel elf with multiple different bloods and even human ancestry, distinctly not called a wood elf, just someone with a lot of bloods and a wood elven mother. That's why I brought up the father race stuff, to clarify that just because he has a wood elven mother, that doesn't mean it is a lore error that he isn't a wood elf. Mindtrait0r (talk) 23:06, 23 August 2024 (UTC)
- Someone's blood or great-great-great-great ancestor is irrelevant. "Mix" races are still born as one race. The only true "mix" race you have is Vivec - in who you can also clearly see that he is half Chimer and half Dunmer. The rest? No.
- Blademaster Jauffre (talk) 00:03, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
Verifiably untrue. See Aeliah Remnus, confirmed by ESO's then-lead loremaster Leamon Tuttle to be a true hybrid between Imperial and Redguard, as well as her own dialogue confirming this. And you provided no evidence against Jagar Tharn being a mixed race other than saying "blood =/= race" which is misinterpreting the material. He's "part dark elf, part high elf". Black and white, no ambiguity. And you've also got the Sea Giant half-giants who are morphologically different from both giants and men and thus must be somewhere in the middle, which is impossible with your mindset. Mindtrait0r (talk) 00:43, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Ask Leamon Tuttle what her race is in the game files. She has an Imperial dad and a Redguard mom. Cool. But in lore she is only one race with the added traits of another. The same way how it would be with Jagar Tharn, or anyone else. I refer again to Agronak gro-Malog. He is an Orc. Not an "Orc-Imperial". He is one race - an Orc. Despite his father being an Imperial. The only trace of his father that exists is him being pale. There is nothing "Imperial" about him.
- Blademaster Jauffre (talk) 01:05, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Lore > limitations of the game engine. Her dialogue confirms she doesn't fit into either categorization (Redguard or Imperial) and the loremaster of the game confirmed it. If you really want gameplay mechanics, try TES: Legends, which puts Mankar Camoran as a hybrid Altmer/Bosmer, something his Oblivion appearance couldn't do due to limited engine feasbility. Do you think Akaviri Commander Mishaxhi is meant to be an Imperial in lore? Little Pelagius is a Nord, does that mean Pelagius III was born a Nord but became a Breton later? Game mechanics are fine when there is no other info to go off of, but taking them over established lore is nonsense. Mindtrait0r (talk) 01:14, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Her dialogue confirms she didn't fit into either group socially. Not racially. And the "hybrids" in TESL are purely for game mechanic purposes, as some cards are race specific. Half-races are a fable in lore.
- Blademaster Jauffre (talk) 10:32, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- The very subject of this page disproves that, as he is called not a Dunmer and not a Breton, but rather half-elven. And once again, no, Aeliah is indeed a hybrid racially, not just socially. Look at the question that was asked to Leamon Tuttle, lead loremaster of ESO when Aeliah was introduced. "Are there exceptions to children of two different races not being the mother's race, outside of Bretons?" Unambigious, refers to race, not culture. And his response: "Yes, when people of two different human races have children, those children bear features of both races. See Aeliah Renmus." Citing Aeliah as a specific example. And no, just because the wording says bears features doesn't mean he's saying she's just one race that has features from the other, since he specifically says it is an exception to the mother race inheritance rule and doesn't mention the father at all, so she falls in-between. Mindtrait0r (talk) 16:33, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- Because one trait of elves is longevity. Aka, a recessive trait. And yeah, features of both races, that is not in dispute. But they are still one race. I will again refer to Agronak, he is an Orc. And what feature does he have of his father's vampiric blood? His pale skin. That does not make him a "Orc-vampire", he is still just an Orc. Blademaster Jauffre (talk) 21:46, 24 August 2024 (UTC)
- You have referenced Agronak multiple times, but him not being multiracial isn't reason for Aeliah and Cassynder not to be. It varies. Some people get their mother's race, some people get their father's race, some people get in-between and are multiracial. Agronak is a non-factor here. You misunderstand what it means to be multiracial, if it helps, you can think of "Dunmer-Breton" as its own race, that way you aren't thinking of Vivec who is literally two races split down the middle. That isn't what Aeliah and Cassynder are, they're mixes of the two races that don't fit into either box. Neither are "two races", they are "in-between two races". I hope this clears it up. Mindtrait0r (talk) 22:23, 24 August 2024 (UTC)