Nord's Totemic Religion by Michael Kirkbride[]
these ideas were not "cut" from the game, all of it is clearly present/implemented in the game just not stated up front. secondly, source is not a reddit post but michael kirkbride's own posting on his tumblr page:
http://michaelkirkbride.tumblr.com/post/128602974278/excerpt-from-a-tesv-skyrim-design-document-with
he describes the information not as scrapped but as a "skyrim design document." Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 04:41, December 16, 2015 (UTC)
- You don't actually know if any of this official canon, because this particular pantheon is almost never seen in-game. The only person who makes mention of it is Froki Whetted-Blade, and even he doesn't go into much detail. Anyway, if that's your reference text, then its probably a good idea to actually mention it somewhere in the article.Wulfharth (talk) 11:53, December 16, 2015 (UTC)
- You don't make sense. Each of the gods described in the document are featured by name in TES:Skyrim, and each of the murals can be found in the Draugr crypts. Its info directly reflects the in-game role the deities play in Skyrim's questlines; those of Shor, Tsun, Kyne, Talos, Alduin and Herma-Mora in particular. Likewise, the references to worshippers of the old religion combining homes with shrines is illustrated in-game through Froki, a believer of Kyne whose shack is build at... a peak, just as the document mentions. There is but one part of this entire referenced text that is not directly seen in-game, and that is the note about the highest ranking woman of a household basically functioning as its high priestess, as Frokie lives alone with his grandson, and his wife presumably already died.
- None of the information that Kirkbride shares here is undeveloped concept or content that has been scrapped. Literally 95% of it has been implemented and is observable in-game. And yes, a reference to one of the primary lore writers of the TES series is my reference text. This is also called "primary source material"--the most relevant and notable of its kind that you possibly can reference. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 15:52, December 16, 2015 (UTC)
- First of all, MK texts are NOT "primary source material" on this wiki. Ask an admin. That is why the OOG ref tag exists. Primary sources are official texts/dialogue/quests etc from the game itself. If you use an out of game source, you need to say so.
- While these gods exist by name in the game, the concept of "The Hearth Gods", "Testing Gods", etc are not from the game at all. 0%. This is the part that is out of game info.
- Froki's house is not a shrine on a peak. It doesn't even contain a mini-shrine. Its a house, so you are crowbarring that into his story. He vaguly mentions Kyne and thats it. All the other Nords follow the Eight or Nine Divines religion. Not this one.
- Next, those murals are explicitly referencing the Ancient Nordic Pantheon, not the Nordic Pantheon that came years later. In fact, it is speculation to say what most of the totem animals relate to which god. The game does not tell us. Hell, before his blog, everyone believed the Whale = Tsun. That just proves its speculation. The only supported ones are Kyne = Hawk and Alduin = Dragon. MK just used them on his blog as ilustrations. There are a million things that didn't make it into Skyrim, that doesn't mean they are official canon too. --Wulfharth (talk) 19:29, December 16, 2015 (UTC)
- Nonsense. The Ancient Nordic Pantheon was the religion from Atmora: A purely animistic faith that deified animals as totems. It was only the later Nordic Pantheon of the Nords that gradually began to shift away from animal worship to directly venerating the Et'Ada. That transition from ANP to NP is what these murals signify, making it clear that they in fact represent the Nordic Pantheon. By the fourth era, the mainstream religion among the majority of Nords had became the Nine Divines, which is why the drawings found on these murals do not show up in Skyrim's fourth era temples--Kyne has become Kynareth, Alduin became Akatosh, etc. Virtually all animal worship was removed by then--the shift away from the animal totems that began with the Nordic Pantheon had been completed.
- Froki's Shack clearly is located within Skyrim's mountainous regions--precisely as the document describes is the custom for the "home-shrines" dedicated to Kyne. If you bothered to read the text, you would also understand why there's no actual shrine to Kyne visible in Froki's shack: The homes and the shrines are, as Kirkbride explicitly states, one and the same, rendering your point moot.
- This proves the concept of "The Hearth Gods" is present in-game; it is just not stated up front. Likewise, the concept of "The Dead Gods" is represented by Shor and Tsun dwelling in Sovngarde, who are gathering worthy souls to prepare for The Final War, which clearly is the "end of the current cycle" the document references. Alduin and Talos, "The Twilight Gods", again assume precisely the role within the game's lore that the document says they do, with the caveat that "The Dragonborn God" appears to be a direct reference to the player character rather than to Tiber Septim. None of this speculative. The sole part where you remotely have an argument is that "The Testing Gods" do not appear to have been worked out and given a place in-game as the other three categories were--likely simply due to time constraints. That is no reason to omit this higly relevant info, let alone treat it as if it were some sort of fan fiction, as you seem to be proposing.Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 12:27, December 17, 2015 (UTC)
- I have no idea why you are getting your panites in a bunch over me saying that you need to label you sources clearly. If one of MK's ramblings is being used, then use the OOG ref tag.
- Also, you're wrong about the murals. The ancient Nords of the Merethic and First Era worshipped the ancient totem pantheon. The Nordic ruins that you find the vast majority of these murals in date back to the Merethic and First Era, meaning they represent the ancient pantheon, and not this page. The Nords didn't move towards the Nordic Pantheon, then suddenly dig up all their old tombs and place these murals there, did they.
- Your whole Froki argument is classic Original Research. But hey, if that's what passes as lore on this wiki then I guess i'm not surprised. --Wulfharth (talk) 15:57, December 17, 2015 (UTC)
- Yeah. "Classic original research" that is explicitly stated by Kirkbride in precisely those same words. Unbelievable. First you falsely claim that this info was derived from a reddit post. Then you misrepresent the distinction between the Ancient Nordic Pantheon and Nordic Pantheon. Then you dismiss readily observable in-game content which corresponds to what this document is saying. Then you miscast an official Skyrim design document as "ramblings". Your arguments are ad hoc in nature, and just a list of fallacies. Ergo, your apparent objection against the inclusion of this content goes well beyond reasonable doubt.
- As an aside, I'm retracting my statement that you had a valid point about "The Testing Gods". With the addition of the "Dragonborn" expansion, Hermaeus-Mora has become featured in-game as a "god" testing Nords, again reflecting precisely what Kirkbride's design document states. This is readily observable through in-game dialogue with the Skaal, who speak of the history of trials that this Daedric Prince has been putting them through since times immemorial. Arshudar Al-Muhdarin (talk) 10:13, December 18, 2015 (UTC)
- "Yeah. "Classic original research" that is explicitly stated by Kirkbride in precisely those same words." Implying anything MK says is official canon. See, the problem is you cannot seem to grasp the difference between an official source and an out of game source. You are treating both as official. The fact that this old design document was created by Bethesda (and NOT MK) doesn't really change anything, because its still out of game. Why are you so against marking info as OOG?
- It matters exactly 0% if some things in the document correspond to what is in the game - it DOES NOT change the fact that it is still out of game. Sure, its cool that some things line up, but for the purposes of a wiki, its incidental. Over the years, MK has has dropped hints of what was originally planned for Morrowind and what they had to drop in the final game. Even though the info sometimes corresponds somewhat to other info in the game, we don't all rush to edit wiki articles every time he mentions what might have been.
- You could always put it in a "Trivia" or "Behind the scenes" section, like what was done for the city of Sutch that was removed from Oblivion. DRAEVAN13
15:51, December 18, 2015 (UTC)
- You could always put it in a "Trivia" or "Behind the scenes" section, like what was done for the city of Sutch that was removed from Oblivion. DRAEVAN13
(←) Alright, so what's wrong with the article? I'm hoping we get it back unlocked soon. Always nice when you don't have to ask an Admin just to edit a page. (PS: It's a good idea to start over with the : stuff so that this doesn't get too far to the side) The_CrusaderTalkpage07:16:24_January 15, 2016