Talk: Orsimer

Names

Does anyone know exactly how Orc names work? For instance in the quest The Noble's Daughter, we have two orcs - one father and his daughter - Lord Rugdumph gro-Shurgak and Lady Rogbut gra-Shurgak. Male orcs are gro, and females gra, right? And does it mean son of / daughter of, or does it state where they are from, i.e. is Lord Rugdumph from Shurgak or is it just his name? --Patito 07:02, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

I think it's a tribal name, though I am not quite certain. Best place to ask would be at the official forums, they have an entire section dedicated to lore. Chirikov 14:47, 28 June 2006 (CDT)

I belive Gro and Gra are indeed masculine and femenine. And I also believe that orc names begin with any name, then gro/gra, and then another name. So for example, me name, Tom Martin, would be Tom Gro-Martin if I was an orc. And my mother, Alyson Thomas, would be Alyson Gra-Thomas. See?

Daedricprince327 ^(talk) 17:46, May 8, 2011 (UTC)Daedricprince327

It is customary for Orismer to take up the name of the villiage or city they're from as a surname, should they so choose to leave said village. Orcs do not have surnames in the manner that we know of them like Clark or Johnson. Grognak gro-Orsinium within city limits is just Grognak, and yes gro and gra represent male and female. (AnonymousNerd) 11:28, Jun 7, 2013

Location

I've got that they (being Orcs) came from the Wrothgarian and Dragontail Mountains, but in what part of Tamriel is this located?

You can see the rough location of the two mountain ranges on this map; the Dragontail mountains being in north Hammerfell (penetrating a short distance into Skyrim), and the Wrothgarian mountains located in southern High Rock. \*\ Hellhound43 23:46, 11 August 2007 (CDT)

Link

Broken link "Official Codex" Hocisern ^(talk) 17:20, December 9, 2011 (UTC)

Real World Connections

Is it too much of a stretch to say that Orcish armor and hairstyles seem to be influenced by Asia? I mean the women wear chopstick buns and the Orcish Armor set looks like samurai armor. AmbieSushi 05:00, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

You may find some similarities, but the real faction/race inspired by the Japanese culture are the Akaviri. We haven't really seen them in games, but it's where Blades originaly came from, their weaponry, armor and architecture have come from the Akaviri.

Ikabite ^(talk) 06:16, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Mongolia maybe? asia doesnt have one grand unified culture. ralok ^(talk) 07:05, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Orcish weaponry certainly doesn't look asian. The armor... It looks nomadic and Mongols were the most succesfull nomads in history. So, I don't really think that it's inteded to look "Asian", but nomadic, which is this case is somewhat similar.

Ikabite ^(talk) 07:27, November 30, 2012 (UTC)

Orsimer and not Orc?

Look... I may not be the smartest person ever... but the name Orsimer, is a technical name for the Orcs that was created for them by people outside their culture, right? The orcs call themselves orcs... and the name Orsimer is rarely, if ever, used by anyone. Elves rarely use it because they dont like to awknowledge the relationship with the orcs, and the Orcs call themselves orcs. This is a bit different than the Dunmer, Altmer, and Bosmer situation, because in that situation they actually seem to resent the term "elf" somewhat. I just feel, that for the most part, these pages should be named for what these people call themselves, and not for what other people call them... especially when its a word used by a few niche scholars, that are most likely non-mer scholars. ralok ^(talk) 21:38, April 7, 2020 (UTC)

Hi Ralok, this has come up in the past but we have decided against it for a few reasons. You're not wrong to say that "Orc" is a more common term, especially in the older games, where "Orsimer" is almost never used (in Morrowind, for instance, I think there is one usage of the term, in The True Nature of Orcs; in Oblivion, only three).

We currently have a sort of vague recognition of this matter for other races, notably the Snow Elves, a term that Gelebor prefers over "Falmer." The literal appearance of the Falmer in Skyrim is enough, in my opinion, to focus an article on the historical race under "Snow Elf" and the creature under "Falmer" (although I need to do some work there). i.e. it is equally out of convenience for the reader as it is an academic decision; "Discerning the Transmundane" would have us believe that the Falmer are indeed still Elven, in some capacity, but they are extremely distinct from the historical race of Snow Elves. The difference is partially biological (physical appearance), but not entirely (because their blood still works); it is otherwise sociological (Gelebor's preference). We try to adhere to all of these things. For the Orsimer, the opposite change has occurred over time (albeit as more of a retcon and not really in-universe): they were originally referred to exclusively as "Orcs," which is why we name our Arena and Daggerfall articles "Orc" and not "Orsimer." Back then, they were mindless LotR-rip off creatures and not a playable race. In the more recent games, especially ESO, the term "Orsimer" is common.

There is a certain amount of disagreement in the literature about which term is preferable, but as far as scholarly works are concerned, we have traditionally been very skeptical of the ones that reject their Merish ancestry. There is a huge amount of racism toward Orcs in the series, and such texts are no exception to unreliable narration. I don't think I would say that there is a strong consensus either way; both terms are used in regularity. However, the fact that you explicitly need to use Orsimer blood along with the blood of the other Mer during "Discerning the Transmundane" is hard evidence supporting that theory. To rename our articles to "Orc" (but keep the other Mer as "-mer") has the implicit statement "Orsimer are not Mer," which is simply not what the literature says. It relegates them to the same reductive interpretation of Orcs that existed in Arena and Daggerfall, which I feel is absolutely not what the Orsimer represent in Morrowind and beyond.

I would also note that the term "Orsimer" is in fact used by members of that community, particularly in modern games. I am not going to bother doing comprehensive data analysis here—"Orc" is still more common across all games—but it is not accurate to state that "Orsimer" is a purely scholarly term.

• The city of Orsinium uses the same "Orsi-" prefix as "Orsimer" does, and that term being very common among both Orcs and non-Orcs is worth bearing in mind. No one calls this city "Orc-town."
• The House of Orsimer Glories in ESO is run by an Orsimer, Curator Umutha. She uses the term effectively interchangeably with "Orc" in dialogue, referring at one point to Orsinium as the "Orsimer nation" and later as the "Orsimer kingdom." This dual usage is corroborated in texts of hers such as Centurion's Signet, Crafting Motif 21: Ancient Orc Style, Dwarf Light, Eye of Zthenganaz, Guthrag's Mask, Heart of Zanadunoz, and Map of Clans, Scepter of the Riekr King-Chief, and Thukhozod's Bracer. The House of Orsimer Glories may or may not have been authored by her, but uses the term "Orsimer" only.
• The Sport of Clans uses both terms as well. The authorship is unclear, but I suspect that it was written by an Orc: "Beyond that, there are dozens of rules and regulations that non-Orcs find confusing and contradictory. No matter. Anyone who has ever witnessed the game played in all its glory comes away excited, breathless, and with a renewed understanding of the definition of courage."
• Mulzah has a line "Orsimer soldiers barged into our inn and kicked us out. Now they won't let anyone back in. They decided to detain some of our patrons, including your friends. In fact, the little Wood Elf showed up right before the soldiers did." It's interesting that she uses the Aldmeri terminology for her own race and not for the Bosmer.
• There is a character in ESO called Orsimer Soldier.
• There is an item in ESO called the "Regalia of the Orsimer King."
• King Kurog historically used the term "Orsimer" in an address to his clan, as described in The Chronicles of King Kurog, Book III. The scholar (?) Zephrine Frey, definitely not an Orc, in describing his dialogue with Kurog, actually attributes the term "Orsimer" to Kurog in a later book in the Chronicles. I don't think he's implying that Kurog invented it, but rather that it is the name that the Orsimer community prefers: "Orsimer—his name for the people we call Orcs." Kurog continues to use it another six times in that text, and in other notes like The King's Orders. He further uses it in dialogue nine times, as opposed to only once for "Orc."
• The term is elsewhere used in association with Orcish liberty as opposed to discrimination. A royal scribe "Ugdora" quotes the Orsimer in Vosh Rakh as she says "They see themselves as Trinimac's sword made manifest, cutting a new path through the ancient and stifling traditions that—as they put it—have "held back the Orsimer people for untold generations."" They distinguish themselves from the other Elves here, but their direct use of "Orsimer" signifies that they still value the term. They use it elsewhere, such as in Vosh Rakh Orders, which calls for "establishing a truly united Orsimer nation." In Malacath and Trinimac, she uses "Orc" and "Orsimer" about an equal number of times.
• Forge-Mother Alga only uses the term "Orsimer" in her Invitation to Orsinium to the Vestige. She also uses the term eight times in dialogue; "Orc" only once.
• Crafting Motif 22: Trinimac Style, in contrast to Motif 21 and its broad preference for "Orc" (despite its occasional use of "Orsimer"), uses "Orsimer" almost exclusively. This book is written by Priest Uugus, an Orsimer who also uses the term in dialogue.
• Shield-Wife Razbela, another Orc, uses the term "Orsimer" three times in dialogue and "Orc" zero.
• Bumnog, an Orc, uses the term "Orc" once and "Orsimer" twice in dialogue.
• Bazrag gro-Fharun uses the term "Orc" fourteen times and "Orsimer" only nine in dialogue, although we don't have quite all of his lines documented.
• Ulsha uses the term "Orc" three times and "Orsimer" once in dialogue.
• Ambassador Lazgara uses each term once in dialogue.
• There are various other instances of the term "Orsimer" being used in favor of "Orc" by Orcs in the Orsinium DLC and elsewhere in ESO, although the way that the eso.lang file is formatted makes it challenging to attribute all of these to specific characters. I'm also too lazy to dig up every single instance. The point is that it is not a term that the Orsimer shun.

Ultimately I think that the term "Orsimer" has become significantly more common in the recent games (used by both Orcs and non-Orcs), and for that reason, as well as the empirically Merish qualities of the race, it is more appropriate to use that term over "Orc" in most of our articles. —Atvelonis ^(talk) 15:44, April 8, 2020 (UTC)

Everything you have said, is valid in some capacity... But it doesn't change the fact, that Orc is their name for themselves... and that Orsimer came along later. Orc is not some slur towards their people, but something of their identity that they chose. ralok ^(talk) 18:01, April 9, 2020 (UTC)

The literature never actually says that the Orsimer invented the term "Orc." Even if they didn't invent "Orsimer" either, at worst they are equally colonial terms.

Certainly, the translation "Pariah Folk" (or "cursed folk," although this might have been a descriptor more than a translation) strongly implies discrimination toward their demographic. But given that "Orc" is a Tamrielic translation of "Orsimer," it carries the same meaning. Remember that the scholarly works we're reading are written in Tamrielic. Etymologically, anything that we receive as a translation is an imposed term (by the speakers of that language, in this case the Cyrodiils). The name "Orc," a Tamrielic term, is certainly no more indigenous to the race than "Orsimer" is. Father of the Niben is not very clear about this, but I'm pretty sure that it posits that "Orc" was also a name that they were given.

What we do have is a line from Kurog that literally displays a preference from an Orc for one of the terms over the other—a direct contradiction of the claim that "Orsimer" is a term not appreciated by the race. "Orsimer—his name for the people we call Orcs." The name is specifically and directly attributed to the Orcish people, and not the other races of Tamriel. This text would actively suggest that "Orc" is a non-Orcish term, one imposed on them by colonizers, which fits in with the facts of how translation works. I think that this is further corroborated by the general Imperial preference for "Orc" in government-funded writings (like Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Wild Regions or The (Improved) Emperor's Guide to Tamriel: Northern Bangkorai and the Mountains).

If you want to take that last thread a bit further, Frey's line perhaps even insinuates that the only reason the Orsimer happen to sometimes use the term "Orc" at all is because of their internalization of the broader Tamrielic power structure. Several other examples I gave—in which the term "Orsimer" is used in conjunction with sentiments of Orcish nationalism, rather than "Orc"—have similar implications, although they of course do not state this outright. You might compare this to real-world linguistic reappropriation, which is a completely valid process (since the term would still be in positive use by the community). An example of this is the term "queer" to describe the LGBTQ+ community, despite originally being used as a slur. As an in-game parallel, there is no way that a term like "Dunmer" (literally meaning the "Cursed Ones," per The Annotated Anuad) was self-applied, yet it was accepted by the Dunmer as "a sign of their changed natures, and sign of the special favor they might enjoy as New Mer," per The Battle of Red Mountain.

My belief, with all of this in mind, is that "Orsimer" is more in line with how the race should be viewed, unless a term that is clearly better than both it and "Orc" comes along in a later game. I appreciate you bringing this up, though. It's a critique rooted in very legitimate concerns, and I need to do a lot of work on this article at some point to bring everything to light. —Atvelonis ^(talk) 01:19, April 10, 2020 (UTC)