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  • The Cat Master
    The Cat Master closed this thread because:
    This is more of an argument than a discussion.
    18:47, February 15, 2020

    This is an observation I've seen from a lot of people completely underestimating damages done to a nation if it becomes battlefield for a war.

    This is something that happened to the Empire during the Great War.

    During Great War, damages suffered by Aldmeri Dominion is almost exclusive to military.

    Arannelya's army, Naarifin and his army. They are all damages done to military.

    Damages done to Empire due to Great War being fought inside Cyrodiil and Hammerfell is far greater or greatly underestimated by many people are hinted by the fact that a lot of times you are told by Imperials themselves that AD would've destroyed them. This would be collateral damages to the structure in addition to the damages done to the military.

    Battle of Red Ring was a necessity to keep Empire from falling apart because entering negotiation table at that time or entering negotiation table if Red Ring had failed would result in AD taking over whether the Thalmor had enough power to keep a tight leash on all of their new Empire slaves.

    Battle of Red Ring tipped the scales, but not to give Empire equal footing. Empire was still at great disadvantage. 

    This is not to justify any side. This is just something I want to put out to get people thinking about collateral damages in war.

    To put into a perspective that most of you can probably understand

    Imagine an asshole who came into your house and tries to rob you.

    You fight the person who is evenly matched with you. In the end you managed to drive the person out of your house but at the expense of your living room and own room's furnitures, your phone and comp used to access internet, access Skyrim wiki being smashed.

    You got a black eye from the fight but the bastard got black eye and a bloodied nose and he ran away scotfree, police couldn't find the bastard now.

    Do you still think you obtained a total victory over the robber?

    As a thumb of rule before you start posting. 

    This topic is intended to talk purely about all the damages that can be done to the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War. Leave politics between Stormcloaks, Imperials and Thalmor out of this Thread as far as possible.

    For example, I have mentioned Reachmen conquering Markarth for a few years as a result of the damages done to the Imperial Legion. It is okay to mention anything that are detriment to the Empire or the Province as a result of the Great War. BUT when you start shifting the topic to point fingers to blame one of the three factions in the Politics I mentioned. Then that is a problem.

    I believe that while getting too enthusiastic and unwttingly shifting the topic in that direction. As long as it wasn't your intentions and you don't deliberately make the topic shift even further into the Stormcloaks, Imperials and Thalmor/AD talk. It will be fine with me. 

    Another rule: Talking about this topic needs to shut down or attacking the thread is not welcomed. Instead of trying to deny other people their right to free speech why not you pack up and go away. Agree to disagree and get lost.

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    • The very last sentence of the OP here is the purest example of your deliberate misinterpretation. When did I say the Empire won the Great War?

      I began by stating neither side won the war. It's a little thing people like to call a "ceasefire" or "stalemate".

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    • I did not specify anyone. Not you in particular. You are oversensitive. My last line was a sarcasm that was not directing at anyone.

      Also it was a stalemate ending in the Aldmeri Dominion's favor. The fact that WGC had nothing but Empire giving in to the Thalmor's demands is the best example.

      My whole point is the damages inflicted on the Empire was different and far greater than many people think.

      Because Aldmeri Dominion's damages were mostly military.

      While Empire suffered military, societal and economical damages. To get people to start thinking about this.

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    • You chose not to specify anyone, but I'm well aware of who you're referring to. "Oversensitivity" isn't a thing through text on a computer screen, unless you'd like to tell us how sensitive you are.

      In the end, it didn't end in the Dominion's favor either, because the Empire's still allowed to recover its lost resources. That's why the Thalmor bothered to covertly prolong the Skyrim Civil War (seen in Thalmor Dossiers) in order to try giving their side the advantage in the next Great War, because the Empire still has the power to continue mobilizing.

      The whole point you tried pulling earlier is that the damages inflicted on the Empire were far greater than that suffered by the Dominion. A whole lot more people are aware of the actual damages than you'd love to believe.

      Plus, the Empire's had 26 years so far to recover those damages, so it's a moot point. If the Dominion actually thought the initial damages of the Great War were enough, they wouldn't have wasted all that time or bothered to covertly influence the Skyrim Civil War to try weakening the Empire's hold on that province. Clearly, even though the Empire suffered more than just military loss, they're still formidable enough that the damaged Dominion couldn't continue either.

      Ultimately, what you're trying is ineffectually kicking a dead horse. More people on this site than you think have already been aware of the damages for at least 5 years now. Problem is that you're exaggerating for the sake of argument, and you're not even backed up by the official source.

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    • Note: The things I said pertains to during the Great War or immediately after the Great War. (Hammerfell may have been part of Empire, it was dismissed from it) You claim you are well-aware who I am talking to. That is where you are overly sensitive. I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to people in general. All side supporters of the Civil War in Skyrim. I see it as something that requires re-examination. Nothing more, nothing less

      I only talked about many (including you considering you often try to steer the topic to direction where both sides suffered equally) underestimated the damages Empire suffered from the Great War due to the war fought solely in Empire lands. 

      I am not exaggerating for sake of argument and I am definitely backed by official source.

      It is in the lore that Aldmeri Dominion took Leyawiin (likely Bravil too) and definitely took Imperial City and committed wide-spread war crimes there but here you are trying to spin the tale around to make it look like I don't have official source.

      Get it through your thick skull

      It Was Outright Stated That Aldmeri Dominion Armies Attacked Hammerfell And Cyrodiil. The Great War was fought in Imperial Lands! Imperial City was taken and war atrocities was committed to the populace was the city.

      It Was Outright Stated That Aldmeri Dominion Armies Attacked Hammerfell And Cyrodiil. The Great War was fought in Imperial Lands! Imperial City was taken and war atrocities was committed to the populace was the city.

      It Was Outright Stated That Aldmeri Dominion Armies Attacked Hammerfell And Cyrodiil. The Great War was fought in Imperial Lands! Imperial City was taken and war atrocities was committed to the populace was the city.

      Those are facts inside Official sources. Important things must repeat 3 times. Even the Empire itself choose to stop fighting and signed the WGC after the Battle of Red Ring.

      Not once did I mentioned about the aftermath. I said the damages were far greater to Empire but I didn't say they couldn't recover or they couldn't keep fighting. 

      Sure I said Battle of Red Ring was necessary because it was. The Emperor lost his home and parts of southern Cyrodiil and all these 'victories' the Empire had during the Great War was to preserve as much as the Empire as possible. In this perspective, this victory is not that glorious.

      Note: Everything I said was either not that glorious or More damages than expected. They were not surely not greatly exaggerated because they are greatly underestimated. At least that is the direction you are spinning it to.

      I have never once touched on whether the Empire... Imperial Legion could've kept fight or not. 

      Fact: Since Hammerfell was able to keep fighting for another 5 years. The answer is yes. Whether the Emperor Titus Mede II was wise, coward, cautious, self who only cared about his own interest or not, I don't care. It wasn't my concern.

      My concern is the fact that the war was fought inside two provinces of Empire, the damages are often greatly underestimated by people. 

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    • I will be monitoring this discussion, since war related discussions here have a history of turning into a shit show, so keep this conversation civil. Also, the use of all caps in violation of our forum policy.

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    • "I am leaning to believe that it is deliberately being made into a shit show because someone don't like the points I make because I don't care about either sides in the Civil War so when I make a topic about a specific point regarding the Great War. People come and turn it into a civil war topic." 

      I have changed the all caps. (Also in case people need me to spell out everything. Right there is an example of oversensitivity of thinking the whole world centers around thyself)

      A brief summary of my points.

      The Great War was fought in Empire lands and I noticed that people seem to have tendencies to underestimate the damages that will be inflicted on a nation when war is fought on it.

      Facts and Evidences: The Great War. (TESV: Skyrim's Lorebook found as early as in Sleeping Giant Inn or Dragonreach's Castle)

      Where did I get the Empire suffered additional damages that are not purely military for example?

      Quote from The Great War Lorebook

      (Around 4E 172)

      Meanwhile, however, the capital fell to the invaders and the infamous Sack of the Imperial City began. The Imperial Palace was burned, the White-Gold Tower itself looted, and All Manner Of Atrocities Carried Out By The Vengeful Elves On The Innocent Populace.

      (since as Catmaster said I am not suppose to put all Caps) The lines in bold and starts with Caps. That right there is civilian... the lifeblood that forms the foundation of a nation being damaged.

      Even if they didn't say, considering Thalmor wanted genocide of humans, it wouldn't be surprising that they commit war crimes in Leyawiin, Skingrad and Bravil, Aldmeri soldiers coming into you, your neighbors' houses plunder everything all of you have, kill you if you are a man, rape and kill you if you are a woman, take your baby to 'educate' into Thalmor's zealots, all kinds of horrible crap... etc. (Probably worse because war)

      Another arguable evidence.

      In the end, the heroic Redguards fought the Aldmeri Dominion to a standstill, although the war lasted for five more years and left Southern Hammerfell Devastated

      Right there is another damage that encompasses more than just military. Its the entire Southern Hammerfell. 

      Some might even argue the Redguards brought it upon themselves. But I see it as damages suffered by the Empire. Reason: Hammerfell was part of Empire during the Great War. It was reluctantly discard by Empire.

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    • Something else to think about that is indirectly related to damages on Empire and Aldmeri Dominion during Great War.

      There's another interesting thing to note: People often accepts the fact that the Empire have longed recovered from the Great War. Losing more than half of their military (1 Legion was wiped out, surviving legions had less than half fighting strength left) having the Nation itself... Cyrodiil and Hammerfell roasted alive by the flames of Great War. Yeah they will be fine. They can recover. This is an idea that people not only entertains but treats as a matter of course.

      But people seem less likely to entertain the idea of Aldmeri Domnion who lost more than half the military they commited to Great War but the AD provinces themselves weren't burnt directly might've also recovered. I often see the "Because Elves birthrates are lower!" argument.

      Sure they have lower birthrates but Elves have about 3 times longer natural lifespan than humans. I think that sorta even up the odds.

      Just look at the exponential increase in population for the past 10-20 years in reality. People give birth to less babies but longer lifespan still boosted population greatly. There are a bunch of other factors that having longer lifespan (especially being able to stay in prime longer) but I think the numbers alone proves that longer lifespan beats birthing more babies in terms of increasing population.

      Well, I am getting sidetracked... Forget my points above. My whole point is that I find it strange how people easily accepts Empire have recovered from Great War because 25 years passed. But they seem to jump straight into "Aldmeri Dominion can't recover" direction because lower birthrates etc...

      One thing to note

      During the chaos of the Great War. Chances of an Imperial Soldier's child who stays in Imperial City getting killed by Aldmeri Soldiers out of hatred was pretty high. Especially around 4E 172-173

      But the chances of an Aldmeri soldier's child who lives safely someone in Aldmeri Provinces getting killed by Imperial Soldiers was ridiculously low.

      Though that was not including the fact that everyone have a high chance of dying in Tamriel, but this added chance of AD soldiers hunting down and massacring your whole family.

      Empire recovered because 25 years have passed = Acceptable.

      Aldmeri Dominion recovered because if Empire can recover, so can Aldmeri Dominion = No, I think they have lower birthrates and often unwittingly imply that Aldmeri Dominion have been doing nothing to recover or protecting their interests and that causing Civil War in Skyrim that is all the way pass the 2nd biggest Province in Tamriel is all they can do for the past 25 years. (Even if that's not they meant. But ultimately they wouldn't entertain any idea that there's any chance for AD army to recover)

      Important thing needs to be repeated lol

      PS: I easily found a guy in reddit saying something along the lines of "Cyrodiil is the most populated Province and can easily replace lost soldiers unlike Aldmeri Dominion, a soldier lost is lost forever"  from a topic that says something like...

      "What is military strength and population of each individual province of Tamriel? And which would you rate as the current strongest?"

      Which further adds to my point here that there are people more than willing to entertain the idea of Empire recovering with ease but they think the Aldmeri Dominion have to stagnate for the past 25 years... at least their military wise.

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    • You do that, @The Cat Master. The TC here has a brief history of projecting his own faults unto others, so we'll soon find out.

      Now onto the reply:

      You say "nothing more, nothing less" and yet you've seen fit to impose walls of text to attack points I never denied. Not to mention "overly sensitive" from the guy who used all-caps.

      What's not in the lore is evidence of your belief that the Dominion was left at an advantage, or that they "won" the Great War. You can keep bringing up Leyawiin & Bravil if you'd like, but this doesn't prove that total damages suffered by the Empire were any greater than what the Dominion obviously lost. But, much more importantly, you've chosen to continue ignoring the initial counterpoint I made that it's been 26 years; the Empire's had more than six-times the amount of years the Great War took to recover their resource losses.

      You're pretending that those facts you just repeated three times italicized and boldened are what was denied.

      You're pretending that the source proves that damage to the Empire was far greater than to the Dominion, when nothing is actually stated to that effect.

      You're pretending that the total destruction of Naarifin's main army & the heavy losses suffered by Arannelya's retreat somehow resulted in a narrow pyrrhic victory for the Dominion.

      ^Important things that I don't need to repeat 3 times in the same reply. Their entire fighting force, even by comparison to the Empire's Legions, was effectively routed.

      Literally one of the most popular topics of discussion on this very forum (and often resulting in "shit shows" as The Cat Master mentioned) involved the fighting in Hammerfell during/after the Great War, so I still don't see why you believe this is "greatly underestimated".  Everyone here who's actually played Skyrim has already known about the damage done long before the year Fallout 4 was announced.

      Even down to the point of Southern Hammerfell being devastated after the official end of the Great War. Everyone who's been arguing points on the Great War already knew about this for years.

      Point being; you treat this like it's big recent news only just learned by us in 2020 for the convenience of your argument.

      The only reason you believe the "shit show" is deliberate is because it's convenient for your side of the argument.  It's a common tactic to demean the stances of others; ironically whining about people not liking your points, but making yourself out to be one who also dislikes opinions different from your own.  This is a public forum.

      Edit: Let's see how this continues.

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    • I've said already. I never said the Empire can't recover from the Great War. It was never whether they can recover or not.

      I always stated the damages done to the Empire during Great War was often underestimated by people. 

      Quote from my past comments

      Note: The things I said pertains to during the Great War or immediately after the Great War. (Hammerfell may have been part of Empire, it was dismissed from it) You claim you are well-aware who I am talking to. That is where you are overly sensitive. I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to people in general.

      In fact I opened the Thread with

      "This is an observation I've seen from a lot of people completely underestimating damages done to a nation if it becomes battlefield for a war."

      You are not the only one who participated in discussions or arguments on this Wiki. I stated specifically right from the start

      I am well-aware that Skyrim is an old game and people have done to hell with topics especially with regards to the War. This is call emptying thy cup and re-examination. You came in with a full cup of course you can't find anything else to add or find anything fun and beyond what you already have.

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    • Yes, you've stated that the damages are often underestimated. And that's why I've continued stating you're wrong.

      And when did I ever say I was the "only one" who participated in this Wiki's discussions or arguments?

      The very definition of a "re-examination" involves having nothing else to add. You are simply revisiting old information; just looking back over at what's already there.

      Though in your case, it appears to be a massive presumption that everyone's glossed over a subject they actually talked about.

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    • I didn't say they never talk about. You claimed to "know" that I was specifically talking about you. I tell you repeatedly: You. Are. Wrong. 

      Also you are putting words in my mouth.

      I never said you claimed that you are the only one who participated in this discussion.

      I am the one who said it because you were acting like I have to absolutely be talking about you which is wrong and you refused to believe me. The most frustrating thing is to tell the truth and falls on deaf ears due to other party having a thick skull / refusing to listen or only choose to believe what they want to believe.

      You miss the point again.

      I didn't say there's nothing to add to this topic which puts more emphasis on the topic of damages suffered by Empire during the Great War. 

      This is indeed a re-examination that can have greater attainment but the condition to even start is to empty cup, to discard the solid self and form established from the years of discussion. One that you've failed right off the bat.

      You kept saying people didn't underestimate the damages done to the Empire and have done this to hell. Right there is having your cup full and refusing to believe there's possibility of expanding. 

      I am very certain that the damages done to Empire during Great War have always been secondary or used as a tool by supporters of either side to justify their opinions just as you are attempting to do so. All your replies to me, your points shows obvious bias towards the Empire's victory over Stormcloaks, over Aldmeri Dominion.

      I will tell you now that I am not interested in your petty political agenda in this fictional world. My thread has nothing to do with outcome of the fights between Stormcloaks vs Imperials or the Aldmeri Dominion vs Empire.

      It is damages they took. That is the primary focus. If you can find more than 3 threads that focuses on the damages Empire and Aldmeri Dominion suffered during Great War that exist in this forum before mine does. Then I am wrong and that I presumed that people didn't put enough focus on the damages suffered by Empire and Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War.

      If not, you are wrong. There haven't been nearly enough topic talking about the damages suffered by AD and Empire during Great War.

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    • Busiao No Laughs wrote:
      I never said you claimed that you are the only one who participated in this discussion.

      Pretty much summing up the entire time I've spent arguing with this guy.

      All anyone has to do is look back at Reply #10, unless you like deleting evidence.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      Yes, you've stated that the damages are often underestimated. And that's why I've continued stating you're wrong.

      And when did I ever say I was the "only one" who participated in this Wiki's discussions or arguments?

      The very definition of a "re-examination" involves having nothing else to add. You are simply revisiting old information; just looking back over at what's already there.

      Though in your case, it appears to be a massive presumption that everyone's glossed over a subject they actually talked about.

      As shown in bolds. You asked me when did YOU Claim' you are the "only one" who participated in this wiki's discussions'

      When my previous comment was

      "You are not the only one who participated in discussions or arguments on this Wiki. I STATED specifically right from the start"

      It is not me who blames others for his own faults. I stated clearly I am telling you. You are not the only one who participated in discussions in this wiki because you kept accusing me of talking about you despite I have told you the truth that I wasn't twice.

      Then you took a small portion of my comment out of context in order to put the blame on me. By using 

      "I never said you claimed that you are the only one who participated in this discussion."

      And deliberately missed out what I said immediately after (in bold)

      "I am the one who said it because you were acting like I have to absolutely be talking about you which is wrong and you refused to believe me. The most frustrating thing is to tell the truth and falls on deaf ears due to other party having a thick skull / refusing to listen or only choose to believe what they want to believe."

      I have stated clearly that I Am The ONE who said it and you keep accusing me of accusing "YOU of claiming to said that"

      The only reason why I need to keep repeating because repeating 3 times is obviously not enough to get through your head.

      I never said YOU Claimed To be the only one participating in the discussion

      I AM the one who TELLS YOU, you are not the only one participating in the discussions that took place in the Forum AND that I wasn't talking about you when I started this thread.  

      Whether you know this or if you have ever made such claims or any other claims, have nothing to do with me and I have no interest in your personal internet life.

      NOTE: Get this into your head.

      I stated clearly I SAID TO YOU THIS "You are not the only one who participates in discussions on this Forum" I was HONESTLY NOT talking about you."

      I have not said that you claimed. I was the one who said it and I have no interest if you have a history of blaming others on your own fault like you did with me. Or if you have made any claims on the internet.

      If that is not enough to get through your head. Then I suggest to The Cat Master to close this Thread because it is apparent that it is impossible to explore from a different angle with damages inflicted on Empire and Aldmeri Dominion as a primary focus. 

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    • I’ll keep this open, however the discussion needs go back to the topic of damage inflicted on the Empire/Aldmeri Dominion. If you continue to criticise each other, then I will close this thread. Also, chill out with the caps.

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    • For record. I was the one who wanted to talk about damages inflicted on Empire being underestimated by people.

      Because when people are focusing on something else. Such as the core reason for most discussions about the war spiralling into... Quote from you: Shit show  - Was the fact that people are focused on justifying their opinions and stance towards the topic of:

      Stormcloaks vs Imperials or Empire, Stormcloaks and Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion. 

      Whether which side is better, which one have better chances to win etc...

      It is something I have no interests in.

      But I do not recall seeing anyone wanting to have a talk with a primary focus on the damages done to AD and Empire.

      It isn't as if there wasn't anything to start with.

      4E 172-173, Leyawiin, Bravil, Skingrad and Imperial City was captured by Aldmeri Dominion.

      Imperial City was stated to have suffered greatly under cruel acts of war crimes by AD forces. Innocent civilians were massacred. - A side note: When this happens in real life, it actually means Killings and rapes almost all the time. 

      Not absolute but a general guidelines is plunder you of all you're worth, rape and kill. Far more horrible things can happen too and what is listed are not in order either.

      This is something people of Empire don't know but we do. Thalmor are kind of aiming for genocide and are very nazi like...

      So things really doesn't look good for Leyawiin, Skingrad and Bravil either...

      No matter how one might spin the tale around.

      It is a fact that as a result of the Great War.

      AD managed to plunder the Imperial City and massacred its citizens.

      Three other Cyrodiilic Cities are likely to have suffered similar fates by AD's hands too or at least resources have been taken from the Empire and USED against the Empire during the times when the cities fell into AD's hands. Evidence is that's how things work. Any Empire or Dominion's army would've done the same.

      Use your enemy's money and/or resources against your enemy. In fact, according to Elder Scrolls Legends the Thalmor actually made Imperial City's people kill one and another for their pleasure. They were already killing your people using your own people why shouldn't they use your money to buy new swords and your food to feed Aldmeri Soldiers so that they can kill more of your soldiers?

      It was also the fact that Empire had to work very hard to get back what was originally theirs (Cyrodiil, Bravil, Skingrad and Leyawiin)

      If going as far as having 3 legions destroyed (2 unnamed + 8th Legion) and all surviving legions have less than half soldiers capable of carrying out their duties isn't considered as working very hard, then nothing is considered working very hard.

      Over 15,000 confirmed deaths (15k = 3 Legions based off a novel)

      In addition, result of Great War led to battles that led to destruction of Southern Hammerfell and Reachmen conquering Markarth briefly due to the absence of a large number of soldiers who went to fight Great War in Cyrodiil.

      At this point I seem to need to spell everything out so I'll do it: I am not saying it is wrong to let Skyrim send reinforcements to save the Empire's skin. Imperial City, the god damned capital already fell into enemy's hands and civilians were getting butchered like pigs.

      Of course Cyrodiil needed help at that time!

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    • The Cat Master wrote:
      I’ll keep this open, however the discussion needs go back to the topic of damage inflicted on the Empire/Aldmeri Dominion. If you continue to criticise each other, then I will close this thread. Also, chill out with the caps.

      You might as well close it now. There's no way in Oblivion that this hypocrite won't stop attempting to criticize what I post.

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    • Or you can leave this thread where I want to engage in discussion with people who actually wants to talk more about damages inflicted on the Empire and Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War without bringing the agenda of using this topic as a clutch or tool as a means to justify the side they support in the Stormcloaks vs Imperial topic or the Empire/Stormcloaks vs Aldmeri Dominion that has not happened yet. This is the primary reason why I want to exclude Stormcloaks, Imperials and Thalmor/AD politics. There is nothing to go beyond the half-assed end to the Civil War no matter how one chooses in their game. While what happened in the Great War are more or less scrutinized in a very political and military point of view. I want it to be a pure civilian perspective this time.

      Not once did I say the topic about the Great War was new and just learned by people in this forum in 2020. You are the one who is using that to argue that I seem to think that way when I said people often underestimated the damages done to Empire during Great War people cannot underestimate something unless they have certain amount of knowledge ranging from little to a lot.

      I just want to talk about damages to the Empire and Aldmeri Domnion. Don't be a hypocrite who tries to borrow the Moderator's hands to shut down a thread simply because it has a different opinion than you. That is same almost the same as attempting to deny another person's right to free speech and playing the victim when you were the one who attacked me and the very topic itself. 

      If you don't think there's nothing more to add to this topic. Here's my advice to deal with topics I see not having potential to have anything new to add: Go away. Go discuss another topic elsewhere where you believe there's something new to add.

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    • Returning to Damages suffered by Empire and Aldmeri Dominion

      I believe that even though the Aldmeri Dominion only suffered military losses, the destruction of Naarifin's Clairvoyance crystal is a far more serious blow to the Aldmeri Dominion. 

      I don't like the AD and it was difficult for me to put myself in their shoes. 

      After the Great War, the Aldmeri Dominion and Empire are in cold war. With Thalmor adopting a more covet way of dealing with the Empire.

      Then if they still have Naarifin's Clairvoyance Crystal during this past 25 years, they would've caused more damage. Though I don't think they would've been able to caused the fall of an Empire, the Septim Empire survived much worse. It survived having its own Emperor trapped in another realm for 10 years and having someone 'planting' cancerous tumor inside the Empire for the said 10 years and Uriel VII still managed to fixed a bunch of things. It was only after the Emperor and the succession line were completely erased that the Septim actually fell. It goes to show that an Empire is pretty tough in the first place.

      This is why I think Naarifin's Clairvoyance Crystal have far more value based on the situation after war and its loss is a great shame for the Aldmeri Dominion. 

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    • It's easy enough for a population to recover in the span of 25(26) years. Historically we can see that in the interwar period, where in WW1 some countries lost up to 1/3rd of their population, but in WW2 were back in the same maybe greater numbers. This is largely because whenever the masses of soldiers return home, they tend to "celebrate" with their spouses more than during peacetime. As such, a whole generation, maybe two, already grew up, while the AD population not only suffered immense losses, but very likely also lost it's best troops, who were veterans of the oblivion crisis even. (You want to lead an invasion with your elite units). The skill of these troops very likely contributed to their successes in Cyrodiil, but now they are dead. Not all of them, but enough to make a difference. 

      Sure they have longer lifespans but this probably also means they would take longer to grow up. Another point is that the Cyrodiil's population now knows what they are like, so next time AD invades any city they already invaded in the 1st GW, they will have to fight a Stalingrad-like battle in each city, since the population will of course not want to be genocided.  Further, I dare say that up to 75% of the AD success can be contributed to their surprise attack, which will now not be happening probably at all.

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    • What I can imagine them doing is instead of using predominantly Altmer troops, they will now conscript large numbers of Khajiits and Bosmer who will serve as sort of cannon fodder. The population might be more lenient towards these people and, to save themselves, might surrender a city or two. This time they will try a more deceiving approach. Radicalization of Altmer in the empire (unless they were lynched by maddened Imperials) is an obvious choice, though the Penitus Oculatus is probably monitoring this possible situation. Very likely they will try to get in contact with Imperial higher-ups who might posses both questionable loyalties and also thirst for power, like the nazis did in WW2 or basically any other country setting up a puppet state.

      I do not however see a scenario where the Empire gets as crushed as they did the first time. AD might try to get Ulfric (if he wins the CW) to attack Cyrodiil from the south, however, unless he got MK Ultra'd hard (which honestly isn't impossible in TES universe) he would just tell them to piss off.

      The last thing: Altmer are unhumanly (cause they're elves, lol) arrogant and overconfident. Ask yourself, in how much **** must they have been to enter negotiations and accept anything less than an unconditional surrender?

      Tl;dr: AD is screwed. 

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    • Just look at the difference between countries who were directly burned by war and those who were not burned during WWII.

      Take United States vs Britain for example. United States didn't have war reach the country, the civilian, the places where the lifeblood of the country were at. Even though USA had recovery to do after WWII. It was in a far better condition than any of the European countries whose infrastructures burned and populace slaughtered. USA even have excessive strength left to help other countries (though it was more of an investment for their own long term interests, you still need to HAVE superior strength to accomplish this investment)

      If the Real Barenziah was to be believed, Elves mature around the same time as humans. They just spend 2-3 times longer duration in their prime to pursue more skills. I am not talking about whether the Empire or Aldmeri Dominion can recover the population they lost or not. 10-20 years is more than sufficient time to do so for both sides

      I am not talking about who has better chances, nor am I interested in knowing what you just told me: You favor Empire's chances to win the next war

      I am just talking about the damages they suffered. What was lost. Not your excuses... i mean reasons to justify your opinion that your preferred side will win the next war. Sorry, you have missed the point of this topic.

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    • If you acknowledge that the time spent recovering population/resources is more than sufficient, than this damages argument of yours is inconsequential to the overarching situation.

      Both sides have obviously suffered losses in the Great War, and you have yet to prove that the Aldmeri Dominion's losses were somehow "less" than the Empire's.

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    • I have never said either sides cannot recover from the damages they suffered. But it is an entirely different story when I am pointing out facts that the Great War was fought on 2 Provinces of the Empire and not the Aldmeri Domination. 

      I have provided facts that the Aldmeri Dominion's losses were less based on facts that has occurred.

      It is how things worked. It is a fact that you choose to ignore and continues to badger me excessively with you think Empire will win the next Great War and that the Empire is superior and that the Empire can absolutely destroy the Aldmeri Dominon and Empire can win the next Great War even if they lower all their guard because the Empire can absolutely destroy the Aldmeri Dominion without breaking a sweat and with one hand tied behind their backs. 

      And either completely missed the point or failed to acknowledge the important facts:

      The Topic is damage suffered by both sides. Whether they have recovered or not is irrelevant.

      It is a fact that Empire had the war fought in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. This is a fact, I am not saying they cannot recover from the damages done to them.

      It is a fact that multiple cities in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil were taken by the Aldmeri Dominion via siege, then later retaken by Empire via siege again. It is 2 sieges, military and civilian damages in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. This is a damage not suffered by the cities of Aldmeri Dominion.

      Both can recover from their losses suffered from the Great War, it doesn't changed the fact that the Empire suffered this additional layer of damages.

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    • And this accusation of me "failing to acknowledge" that the topic is damage suffered by both sides in itself completely [and conveniently] ignores what I already posted about twice on the 16th of January. So you're horribly wrong; I've already addressed the issue you want, and will continue to address it.

      It is a fact that the Aldmeri Dominion's entire main force was obliterated in Cyrodiil. The same can't be said for the entirety of Empire or Hammerfell's forces.

      It is a fact that the Dominion force (led by Arranelya) couldn't actually siege the cities of southern Hammerfell until AFTER Decianus' Imperial Legion had officially left, only leaving "invalids" behind in the north.

      It is a fact that the Forebears & Crowns were not fighting as a united front at the beginning of this conflict, thereby making the Dominion's advance easier than it otherwise should've been.

      It is a fact that, despite it being sieged, the Imperial City was still taken back by the Empire.

      It is a fact that the only reason Taneth fell to siege was due to internal sabotage.

      It is a fact that Hegathe was one of the southern cities of Hammerfell to successfully hold out.

      Finally, it's also a fact that Lady Arranelya's forces couldn't even hold Skaven, were forced to retreat due to loss of both resources & momentum, and were picked off by Alik'r warriors as they crossed the desert to escape Hammerfell.

      ________________

      I definitely don't need to be an Empire-supporter to acknowledge the fact of your inability to prove how "much greater" the Empire's losses were than the Dominion's.

      Fact remains not only that the Dominion's own losses were just as great; but that you've already acknowledged that the Empire's had ample time to recover (with the Dominion doing absolutely nothing about it until the Skyrim Civil War).

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