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  • The Cat Master
    The Cat Master closed this thread because:
    Uncivil conduct
    00:46, May 25, 2020

    This is for people to voice their opinions and discuss whether the Empire in the 4th Era is Septim's Empire or Mede's Empire. Edit: I am opened to all opinions, even aggresive ones. I have been made aware that according to Roman Empire, the change of Dynasties, the change of rulers doesn't necessarily change the name of the Empire. If so, what are the conditions for the formation of a new Empire?

    Edit: My own opinion is that no matter what people say... both in lore/game and outside, the Current Empire is Mede's Empire and not Septim's Empire as in the ones running the show are the Medes and their council members, not the Septims.

    From my understanding, in Monarchy figurehead (the Monarch/Emperor) has greater importance compared to Democratic Nations.

    In Monarchy, it is not who is actually in power that determines whose Empire it is. The figurehead and his/her bloodlines determines whose Empire it belongs to. (Until the ones truly in power officially usurps)

    My opinion is the Dynastic cycle of the Septims ended. The Empire, even if it is mostly the same territory, is no longer the Septim's Empire but follows the Mede Dynasty and becomes Mede's Empire.

    No offense to Stormcloaks supporters who says this is still the Septim's Empire, I simply can't see how the same Territory who has been taken over by an entire new Dynasty is still the Septim's Empire. Titus Mede I took over the Empire during Stormcrown Interregnum much like Tiber Septim conquered the Empire.

    A comparison is an Empire ruled by Monarchs is a family-owned business.

    The Septim Family business failed and the Septims have bankrupted. Another rich family, the Medes came to buy the business. They took over, even if some employees or people are unhappy and tries to claim the business belongs to Septims, it doesn't matter anymore. Medes are in-charged, it is their business, their Empire now. It is Mede's Empire.

    Edited again (25/05/2020): Subjected to major changes in near future.

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    • Lore does not support the "Mede Empire" claim, because there is no single mention of "Mede Empire" in-game. Every NPC who directly speaks of the Empire acknowledges that it's still the Empire that Tiber Septim founded.

      Addendum: It's even still called the "Third Empire" in Varieties of Faith in the Empire, a book also found in TES5's Dragonborn expansion.

      Plus, as I said "off-topic" in another thread; the only examples we need to corroborate this are the real-world Roman Empire, and the fact that the Elder Council (Ocato) intended to take over until they could place a new Emperor on the throne.

      Thusly, it is still the Third Empire.  The dynastic change does not change the foundation.

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    • It is hilarious how the Nordic Empire (Ysgrammor/Vrage), Alessian Empire (St Alessia), Reman Empire (Reman Cyrodiil) and Septim are their own Empires but Mede had to be special and be a part of Septim Empire. Extremely strange and doesn't make sense.

      Ocato was assassinated and interestingly, even before that, the Empire was already fallen apart. Provinces were already leaving Empire left and right... the Septim Empire ended when Septim Dynasty ended. It's free estates at that time.

      Further evidences is during Stormcrown Interregnum and events leading to Titus Mede I taking over.

      Before Titus Mede I, there was a guy named Thules the Gibbering who took over as Emperor. He got ousted by Titus Mede I. After Titus Mede I took over, he had to contend with Eddar Olin. Then he had to stop General Takar from Hammerfell who was fighting against the Empire and convinced the guy to join him.

      Later Titus Mede I had to go out to conquer the two Cyrodiilic Counties Leyawiin and Bravil, the two Provinces High Rock and Hammerfell. 

      For your addendum, I think you need to re-examine facts again. Varieties of Faith in the Empire existed during Morrowind. It was authored by Brother Mikhael Karkuxor in the Imperial College. It is not a viable addendum to support that the Empire in 4th Era is still the Septim's Empire.

      However with respect to the Roman Empire that Mede's Empire is based off, I can accept that this is the Third Empire however, just like Roman Empire that can be divided into Eastern and Western, I will consider Third Empire divided into Septim and Mede Empire.

      I do not accept Third Empire changing Dynasty and still call it the Septim Empire when the Septim Dynasty ended, the current Emperor had nothing to do with the Septims. There are absolutely no evidence to prove that he is related even remotely to the Septims.

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    • Walebars wrote:
      It is hilarious how the Nordic Empire (Ysgrammor/Vrage), Alessian Empire (St Alessia), Reman Empire (Reman Cyrodiil) and Septim are their own Empires but Mede had to be special and be a part of Septim Empire. Extremely strange and doesn't make sense.

      You're forgetting that the "Cyrodiilic Empire" (Second Empire) was also ruled by Akaviri Potentates after Reman III was assassinated. And then it eventually was briefly taken over by Varen Aquilarios, only for the Tharns to establish a dynasty after the former's disappearance (events of TESO).

      Empires being ruled by a different dynasty than their founding one is nothing new in Tamriel.

      This isn't about whether the Third Empire can still be called the "Septim Empire" after the Medes took over.  It's about the simple fact that it's still the same Third Empire in 4E201.

      Addendum: They wouldn't still be using the book if it wasn't still relevant to the times they live in (instead, it would be archived).

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    • It's not a simple fact. It's the fact that the Third Empire's figurehead has changed. That is important and requires distinction whose dynasty is it. PS: Is the quote a hint that you only read my 1st 3 lines and completely ignores everything else?

      Regardless, because it isn't anything new, it is not wrong to state the fact that Septims are gone and the Third Empire does not belong to the Septims anymore. It belongs to the Medes at present and unless the Septims or someone else takes over, it is Medes' Third Empire period.

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    • Walebars wrote:
      It's not a simple fact. It's the fact that the Third Empire's figurehead has changed. That is important and requires distinction whose dynasty is it. PS: Is the quote a hint that you only read my 1st 3 lines and completely ignores everything else?

      Yes, it is. Because you just acknowledged it's the Third Empire. The Elder Council took over after Martin's death, Thules the Gibbering was appointed, and then Titus Mede ousted him to prove his own legitimacy.

      Plus, let's not forget the fact that the gold coin currency in TES5 are still Septims.

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    • No it isn't when it comes to Sovereignty. There are other examples but I'll use one of the Chinese Empires. Tang Empire. 

      The Tang Empire began in 618 and ended in 907. Even though it was considered Tang Empire throughout, there was a break. Wu Zetian established the Zhou Dynasty between 690 - 705 and even though it was recognized widely as Tang Empire. They made distinction between Zhou Dynasty and Tang Dynasty.

      In Monarchy, the bloodlines carries far more weight. It is not as simple as you want to believe. 

      Third Empire or not, it is a fact that the Septims are long gone (about 200+ years) and the Medes are in-charged, therefore it is the Medes' Empire.

      Third Empire in 4th Era = Medes' Empire. Your refusal to acknowledge this fact doesn't change its status as a factual truth.

      Therefore it is the Medes' Empire. 

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    • What's funny is that you've been misconstruing my argument, and ironically proving me right. The Roman Empire existed, thus proving that a single founding bloodline by itself doesn't determine how long an Empire really lasts.

      "Mede Empire" implies the incorrect notion of them founding a new empire, which they didn't.  The Septims founded the Third Empire (also called the "Tamrielic Empire"), and when the last of them died, the Medes eventually took their place.

      There is no "or not"; It is factually proven that, regardless of the change of dynasty from Septim to Mede, it's still the Third Empire.

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    • Nope, it's all in your head.

      Actually if it is to follow the Roman Empire, then it should've been the single Tamriellic Empire with Alessian, Reman, Septim and Medes as the major Dynasties while there are pockets of smaller Dynasties in-between. It is the same territory just different rulers. There shouldn't be First, 2nd and Third Empire, there is only Tamriellic Empire.

      Even the Roman Empire had multiple Dynasties, multiple Emperors and bloodlines in charge of the Empire.

      I think it's kind of dishonest to remove the ' on the Medes' Empire and made it as if I did not acknowledge that I have respected the Roman Empire's History and took a step back. All you're doing is simply being aggressive. 

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    • You keep insisting that the change of Dynasties doesn't matter. The truth is it matters far more than you can ever comprehend as based on your beliefs, it is painfully obvious that you've only lived and learn about democratic society. 

      Dynasties and the Bloodlines are everything in Monarchy. When Uriel Septim VII died, they didn't immediately start elections to get a new Emperor, their first priority was find the next in-succession, the next closest kin related in blood.

      Ocato and Elder Council looking for new Emperors in non-Septim bloodlines was after they thought the Septim Bloodline had died out (Or they choose not to seek out for reasons)

      The fact that the Elder Council... the Empire turned to the nearest blood relative when the Emperor died proves that your claims that change of dynasty doesn't matter

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    • "All in my head" = Actually reading the lore on the empires; how they rose & fell.

      The Third Empire is the only Cyrodiil-based Empire to follow a real-world Roman example.  The Second Empire was founded by someone claiming direct descent from Alessia, and usurped by foreigners (Akaviri Potentates) only for an unrelated individual (Varen) to take over before disappearing & allowing his allies (the Tharns) to take over in his place.

      You must've edited it out, then, because (using the Find function) I only see two mentions of 'on the Medes' so far (counting this very post). And if I'm being too "aggressive"... then why are you posting IN A PUBLIC FORUM??

      You keep acting like a simple change of dynasty means it's suddenly a new empire; which is blatantly false as proven by the Roman example.

      You're also forgetting that the Elder Council's previous required proof of legitimacy (the Amulet of Kings) was destroyed, so their tool of determining whether the "nearest blood relative" really was that is gone.

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    • Also your Addendum truly doesn't matter. In fact I have to warn you, there's dishonesty on your part with regarding to your use of this Lore Book.

      The problem with your use of this lore book starts here.

      In Varieties of Faith in the Empire, the mention of Third Empire was not to support claims that the current Empire is still the Third Empire

      This Lorebook introduces the Aedras and Daedras/Religions worshipped by people

      The mention of Third Empire was when introducing Tiber Septim as Talos. It says the following.

      Tiber Septim (Talos, the Dragonborn): Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Tiber Septim is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North'.

      Sadly this lorebook you used for your addendum does not support your claim at all. Therefore your addendum is null.

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    • But since you think there's nothing worth discussing and you openly admits to not willing to listen to everything I have to say but instead chooses whatever conveniences you from what I said. Then there's nothing to talk about. Our conversation is over.

      (Regards to the 's. It was purely laziness and the fact that going back to alter everything to show my willingness to take a step back and respect the Roman Empire's history requires time, it doesn't change the fact that this change happened much earlier)

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    • To those who are interested in the topic as well. Feel free to join the discussion. 

      Also here's something extra to discuss. There is a parallel in the formation of Septims' and Medes' Empires.

      For Septim's Empire

      With the assassination of the last Akaviri Potentate, Savirien Chorak, and every one of his heirs on one bloody night during Sun's Dawn of 2E 430, the Reman Empire fell into an era known as The Interregnum where many pretenders tries become Emperor and the Provinces broke away.

      Then Tiber Septim came and conquer them back one by one and established the Septim's Empire. (Note the 's I am respecting the Roman Empire's history and not using Chinese Dynasties and Empires as a standard)

      For Medes' Empire.

      After Potentate Ocato was assassinated, Empire spiraled into Stormcrown Interregnum where pretenders tried to take the throne. The only difference this time is that there's no Amulet of the Kings to prove who is the worthy Emperor.

      So after Titus Mede I ousted Thules the Gibbering and defeated Eddar Olin, he had to go and conquer various Provinces and even Leyawiin and Bravil, two counties of Cyrodiil. 


      In a nutshell: previous Dynasty of the Tamriellic Empire fell, Potentate tries to keep Empire together, fails and gets assassinated, Pretenders appears to fight for throne, winner ousted the pretenders, conquer the Provinces that broke away and viola! They claim its a new Empire. 

      But according to 'facts' presented to me, Territory = Empire. Dynasties had nothing to do with it. Then it shouldn't be the Third Empire. It should be Tamriellic Empire since just because Tiber Septim had established a new Era (changed calender) and a new Dynasty, it should still be the Tamriellic or Alessian Empire.

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    • Ah, "your argument doesn't matter", the typical weapon of one unwilling to continue an argument they're responsible for starting.

      I used the "Varieties of Faith" lore-book's presence in Dragonborn to illustrate the fact that the book's mention of "Third Empire" is still relevant in 4E201.  If this really was a "Fourth Empire", then the book simply wouldn't be utilized. Instead, at the very least, an updated edition would be required.

      The Stormcrown Interregnum doesn't change the fact that it's still the Third Empire, either.  The Second Empire itself experienced an Interregnum throughout the events of 2E582~583, and persisted regardless.

      This guy's telling me I'm "aggressive". Just look at how he's hypocritically responded.

      https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/empire

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    • I am well aware of the definition of Empire: which is a major political unit having a territory of great extent or a number of territories or peoples under a single sovereign authority, especially : one having an emperor as chief of state.

      In my own words: An Empire is territory under control of a political group under servitude to a Monarch/King/Emperor.

      PS: Interregnum means a period of time where government is no longer functioning/in control, throne is vacant and between two regimes (governments/Political groups)

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    • Actually the Varieties of Faith presence in Dragonborn DLC and found only in Solstheim truly doesn't support your statement at all. I am trying to find where your coming for your addendum claiming that Varieities of Faith in the Empire would support the statement that the current Empire in 4E 201 is the Third Empire.

      This is really just a display of dishonesty. The book introduces a lot of Deities, some even mentioned 1st and 2nd Eras! 

      Brother Mikhael Karkuxor started the book by stating

      "This is my best attempt at a listing of the pantheons and associated divine spirits of Tamriel's dominant cultures"

      He made it clear this is a book introducing Pantheons, Gods, Cultures and Religions.

      Now let's look at where the Third Empire was mentioned in the book.

      "Tiber Septim (Talos, the Dragonborn): Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Tiber Septim is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North'. "

      It doesn't talk about whether the current Empire in 2E 201 is the Third Empire or not! 

      It only says that Tiber Septim who became Talos founded the Third Era and Third Empire when he conquered all of Tamriel along with some of the titles he also possess.

      Sorry, your arguments simply doesn't support your claims and addendum. 

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    • As for The Interregnum, for record it didn't start and stop in 2E582~583. 

      The Interregnum of Second Empire started in 2E 430 with assassination of the Poventate and only ended in 2E 854 by Tiber Spetim. 

      You asked me why I am posting in a public forum if I find you too aggressive. Wasn't that hinting if someone want to post in a public forums they should be prepared to face aggressive replies? 

      I took your advice and accept everything that is factual and within reasons, sadly a lot of what you said are hardly supported and you are just going back to what I initially said which I have clearly stated I've accepted your points that change of Dynasty doesn't change the name of the Empire. 

      I am open to opinions of other people. However, as I said earlier, there's really nothing else for me to discuss with you in regards to the Dynasty =/= Empire topic. 

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    • PS: Despite your points, it doesn't change the fact that the Medes own the Empire now, whether it was founded by the Alessian, Reman or the Septims.

      You claimed that I am using "your arguments don't matter" as a weapon to discontinue a discussion I started.

      That is wrong as well because I am still in the discussion. The problem is you haven't presented any valid arguments for me to see your points with regards to the Varieties of Faith in Empire as facts.

      Most importantly, why were you lying about the Varieties of Faith in the Empire supporting the claims that the current Empire is still the Third Empire when the only mention of the 3rd Empire was introducing Tiber Septim who died and became the God Talos long long ago. As quoted from the book itself.

      "Tiber Septim (Talos, the Dragonborn): Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Tiber Septim is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North'. "

      This is the only mention of the Third Empire together with Third Era in the Book and it has nothing to do with present time. In addition, this book wasn't found in Skyrim which is still a part of Empire, you find it in Solstheim which is part of Morrowind and not a part of Empire.

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    • Which fails to prove your argument of how an empire's survival is tied to only a single dynasty.

      And until you're capable of actually proving this, I'll just take a page out of your very own argument strategy book & acknowledge that "your argument doesn't matter".

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    • Dude I said so many times, I have acknowledged and respect the Roman Empire's history and have made it clear on my edits which I have made it clear. 

      Even though only mention that it is still Tiber Septim's Empire in TESV: Skyrim was from Stormcloak supporters saying that the current Empire disrespect its founder Talos and the Empire are Thalmor's bitches who needs to fuck off from their Skyrim which I do not agree as I don't see the Empire belonging to the Septims as their dynasties have left the scenes for over 200 years and there are no discernible evidence that the surviving Septims want to return to vie for the throne. 

      I have longed given in with regards to Dynasties =/= Empire arguments. However, what I will not give in is the fact that I believe distinction between Dynasties for an Empire has to be made. Reason: This will ultimately lead to matters concerning the Emperor and his Line-Of-Succession and this level of distinction should be minimum.

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    • What truly remains that has not been addressed is your refusal to acknowledge and apologize for your dishonest attempts to claim that TES V: Skyrim's in-game Book: Varieties of Faith in the Empire added by the Dragonborn DLC that can only be found in Solstheim provides evidence that the current Empire in the 4th Era is still the Third Empire.

      You hinted in addendum to your earlier arguments that because Varieties of Faith in the Empire even mentions that the current Empire is the Third Empire, it supports your arguments to which I find it to be untrue. There might be evidences which was not shown anywhere in the game of TES V: Skyrim, but Varieties of Faith in Empire is definitely not one of them!

      This is because its Author Brother Mikhael Karkuxor in the Imperial College existed even during the Elder Scrolls Online time which means 2nd Era and Varieties of Faith in the Empire could've been written in early 3rd Era.

      You claimed that it has to be the Third Empire or Book would've been censored. 

      First: Brother Mikhael Karkuxor made it clear on the beginning of Varieties of Faith in the Empire that it is a book that lists Gods and religion    

      "This is my best attempt at a listing of the pantheons and associated divine spirits of Tamriel's dominant cultures. This list is by no means complete"

      Above is the evidence.

      Second: His mention of Third Empire was a part of introducing the God Talos and have not mentioned the Empire in 4E 201 being the Third Empire. This is important as it isn't the evidence that you claimed to back your argument and worse of all, it is a very clear display of dishonesty on your part and you are clearly trying to steer the conversation away from this.

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    • Worst of all is your continued ignoring of the simple fact that the Varieties of Faith book is still being used by 4E201.

      If this truly were a different Empire, that book would no longer be in use, much less relevant.  Saying it would be "censored" is just deliberate twisting of words.

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    • Dude, a lot of books were written as early or earlier than Varieities of Faith ARE STILL being used in 4E 201. 

      Not to mention, you are the one who is completely ignoring the facts I have pointed out. I didn't twist your words. I merely pointed out flaws in your logic and words.

      I stated and provided facts that The Book's mention of the Third Empire doesn't automatically means the current Empire is the Third Empire. Especially it mentions Third Empire while introducing Tiber Septim as Talos! 

      As I've quoted from the Lore book over and over again!

      "Tiber Septim (Talos, the Dragonborn): Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Tiber Septim is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North"

      It says that Tiber Septim is the most important hero god of humans and that he conquered all of Tamriel, ushered in the Third Era and the Third Empire. This is evidence that the book says that Tiber Septim caused the 3rd Era and 3rd Empire to start. It has in no way supporting claims that the current Empire is the Third Empire.

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    • If a Lore Book regardless if it is talking about religion or history that still exists currently in 4E 201 mentions an Empire, then the Empire automatically exists today in 4E 201, we don't need to examine why the Book mentions the Empire. 

      Then by your twisted Logic, the following Lore Books mentions Second/Reman Empire, then it automatically means the Empire today is not the Third Empire but the Second Empire because all of the books below mentions the 2nd Empire, So we don't need to examine why they mention Second Empire, any attempts to prove evidences are deliberate twisting of words.

      Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Other Lands

      Varieties of Faith in the Empire

      The Legendary Sancre Tor

      Pocket Guide to the Empire, Third Edition: Cyrodiil

      2920, vol 12 - Evening Star

      2920, vol 02 - Sun's Dawn

      ​​​​​​All these books existed by 4E 201 and they prove that it is still the Second, Reman Empire today! I don't need to examine or show you why they referenced the Second Empire, because it was referenced and these books are still found in Skyrim in 4E 201, it means the current Empire is Second Empire! Also since there are more books blatantly mentioning Second Empire that is still in use in Skyrim at 4E 201 which is a part of Empire, it means this is the Second Empire if it is a different Empire, these books will no longer be in use!

                                                                                               ~ By Your dishonest, twisted Logic

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    • Quote from: Varieties of Faith in the Empire 

      "Tiber Septim (Talos, the Dragonborn): Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Tiber Septim is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North"

      The above quote is the only times when Third Empire was referenced while the book was introducing Tiber Septim as the founder of the Third Era and Empire provided no evidence that the current year 4E 201 is the Third Empire.  <- My Point.

      Now your next argument that if the Book referencing the Empire is still in use in 4E 201 means it is the Third Empire is wrong as well. In fact there are plenty of books that were in use during 3E and 4E 201 (Skyrim) that referenced the Second Empire.

      Their existence proves that your argument that if the Book is still in use in 4E 201 and it references Third Empire, it automatically means the current Empire is Third Empire and we don't even need to examine why the book reference the Empire is untrue as well.

      I am not ignoring your points. It is simply because what you said about this matter is totally wrong.

      Due to your dishonesty and refusal to admit you are wrong. I am half mind to examine Roman Empire's History and talk to other people about it as there is a chance that you told some contextual lies to push whatever the agenda you have.

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    • Walebars wrote:
      Dude, a lot of books were written as early or earlier than Varieities of Faith ARE STILL being used in 4E 201. 

      Precisely the point, because they're still relevant.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      Walebars wrote:
      Dude, a lot of books were written as early or earlier than Varieities of Faith ARE STILL being used in 4E 201. 
      Precisely the point, because they're still relevant.

      Base on your quote and my replies above that was broken up into smaller parts to be read more easily.

      However, worst of all is your continued ignoring of the facts I presented and selectively quoting my words for your contextual lies. 

      PS: The books existence have no relevance to the point you made about Varieties of Faith in the Empire  proving your point without checking the reason for book referencing Third Empire as stated above.

      Just stop if you have nothing to offer. (For other people who cares, the full comment that he dishonestly edited out is 4 comments above)

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    • Walebars wrote: However, worst of all is your continued ignoring of the facts I presented and selectively quoting my words for your contextual lies. 

      Which is hilarious, because "ignoring" them would imply I never responded to them in the first place, or that I didn't respond in kind to "your argument doesn't matter", as you've already tried to demean my statements.

      "Dishonestly edited out" = Acknowledging that it's literally still there, 4 comments above, meaning I never "edited it out" in the first place. Christ, your accusations of me are just so back-asswards...

      I've already had plenty to offer.  You yourself have simply chosen to continually misconstrue all statements I've made, and [ironically] ignore the implications of that very book's presence in Dragonborn.

      The very fact that it's still being used in the 4th Era, nevermind the very fact that it mentions "Third Empire"; proves that what you call the "Mede Empire" (not what the game itself ever calls it) is not a "different" empire.

      It's the very same Third Empire that began way back in the 9th Century of the 2nd Era under Tiber Septim.

      That is the crux of the entire point I had addressed in the previous thread before you started this one; This simply isn't a different empire just because the dynasty changed.

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    • Your attempts at word games will not work here. You did not address my points pertaining to your addendum. 

      I've stated clearly on my thread and previous comments that I've acknowledge (stating that they have been edited) that I accept the facts based on history of Roman Empire that just because Septim Dynasty changed to Mede Dynasty doesn't mean the Empire's name will change. The name of the Empire can remain the same.

      I've also mentioned that while I accept that it is still the same Third Empire that the Septims started but it has changed ownership to Medes, I think it is stupid and retaining the Third Empire's name sounds more like a political move to restrict the new Emperors' power by constantly reminding everyone that this is the Septim's Empire. However, this opinion doesn't change the fact that I acknowledged this is the Third Empire.

      My issue is your addendum. 

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    • All you ever offered for your addendum is "Because Varieties of Faith in the Empire exists in 4E 201, it automatically means the current Empire must be Third Empire." That is not the definition of plenty to offer.

      Your point is not valid for a number of points I stated above such as the book does not state anything about the current Empire being the Third. It only said that Tiber Septim is the founder of 3rd Era and 3rd Empire. - Your addendum that uses this book does not provide any evidence that supports the current Empire being the Third Empire.

      You claim that those books existed because they are still relevant. That point does not support the fact that your addendum is wrong and you keep trying to steer the conversation away from your mistake. That is why I am saying you are dishonest.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:

      The very fact that it's still being used in the 4th Era, nevermind the very fact that it mentions "Third Empire"

      You are very wrong with your point. In the Varieties of Faith in the Empire​​​​your Third Empire was mentioned on this part.

      "Tiber Septim (Talos, the Dragonborn): Heir to the Seat of Sundered Kings, Tiber Septim is the most important hero-god of Mankind. He conquered all of Tamriel and ushered in the Third Era (and the Third Empire). Also called Ysmir, 'Dragon of the North"

      It doesn't matter if its presently the Third, Fourth or Fifth Empire, it doesn't change the fact that Tiber Septim founded the Third Era and Third Empire. This does not provide any evidences as you have claimed it to be addendum to your argument as it mentions nothing about the current Empire being Third Empire.

      Its existence in 4th Era or the existence of other lore books that existed as early as 2nd Era doesn't matter. They only prove that these books provides insights / information to past, not the present. 

      Most importantly what you said about this book being addendum to support your claim is untrue.

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    • Walebars wrote: It doesn't matter if its presently the Third, Fourth or Fifth Empire, it doesn't change the fact that Tiber Septim founded the Third Era and Third Empire.

      This is where I have to laugh.

      You actually believe that my argument was denying that Tiber Septim founded the Third Empire?

      So much for accusing me of "word games".  You're clearly attempting to put words in my mouth.

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    • Plus, I've noticed that you completely glossed over my point on the gold currency still being used across the Empire in 4E201.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      Walebars wrote: It doesn't matter if its presently the Third, Fourth or Fifth Empire, it doesn't change the fact that Tiber Septim founded the Third Era and Third Empire.
      This is where I have to laugh.

      You actually believe that my argument was denying that Tiber Septim founded the Third Empire?

      So much for accusing me of "word games".  You're clearly attempting to put words in my mouth.

      You continue to prove your dishonesty and putting words in my mouth while accusing me ol doing so.

      I did not say your arguments denied the authencity of Tiber Septim being founder of Third Empire. 

      I said your usage of the lore book: Varieties of Faith in the Empire still being in use in 4E 201 is evidence that the current Empire is the Third Empire is not true. It doesn't support your argument of current Empire is the Third Empire

      Because this lore book only states that Tiber Septim founded the Third Era and Third Empire and does not support the statement that the current Empire is the Third Empire.

      In other words, you are a liar who uses contextual lies to argue with people and should not be taken seriously. (Also your attempts to oversimplify relationship between Dynasties and Empire is very wrong as well)

      Also in the game, people in the Imperial Legion have never said this is the Third Empire. They only call it the Empire and that without the Empire, Skyrim will be taken over by the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion.

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    • Examples are Books obviously written in the times when the Mede Dynasty are in charge of the Empire.

      The Talos Mistake

      The Great War (Book)

      Flight from the Thalmor

      And practically everyone who sides with Imperials in the game never called it the Third Empire, the refer it simply as the Empire.

      Only the Stormcloaks aligned NPCs call this Talos' Empire and the Imperials betrayed him therefore must gtfo.

      Which now puts your entire claim that the current Empire is the Third Empire into question.

      I've also stated that I only care about facts. Since it is a fact that during the game, Septims was used as currency for everyone (Fact is even the Thalmor have them in-game). Well, there are issues with Septims still in use by everyone but they are irrelevant to my topic. 

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    • Walebars wrote:
      And practically everyone who sides with Imperials in the game never called it the Third Empire, the refer it simply as the Empire.

      Which now puts your entire claim that the current Empire is the Third Empire into question.

      Congrats on putting words in my mouth yet again; I said they acknowledged it's still the Empire that Tiber Septim founded. Whether they literally say "Third Empire" themselves is irrelevant.

      As long as Septim coins are still widely used in 4E201 [roughly 184 years after the Mede Dynasty took over the Third Empire] they'll always be relevant to this topic.

      Therefore showing you don't know what you're talking about, and are obviously willing to ironically ignore facts that don't suit your "Mede Empire" narrative (despite accusing me of "ignoring" facts), as you've so blatantly admitted even in your OP.

      It's just so laughably desperate of you to search for every little angle that might indicate a "new" empire to coincide with every single dynastic change, but it more-often-than-not just doesn't work that way, especially not in real-life.

      Even the Achaemenid (Persian) Empire had two different dynasties.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:

      Addendum: It's even still called the "Third Empire" in Varieties of Faith in the Empire, a book also found in TES5's Dragonborn expansion.

      I stated clearly that I acknowledge the current Empire being the Third Empire. I relented about that and even made it clear on my edits which I made. However, upon starting a new game, I noticed new details which may cause major changes to my perspective to this topic which I will hold off for now until I explore the game more. (This revelation also includes that there might be a slight bias in topics regarding the Civil War.)

      I've also stated clearly that I find no problems with your statement saying that Septims (or Drakes) are still in use during 4E 201 when you pointed it out. I didn't really skipped it, it was fine as opposed to how glaringly wrong another one of your points was.

      That glaringly wrong points I've also stated clearly was the particular part of the statement from your first comment in this thread which I have quoted above.

      You said "Its even still called the "Third Empire" in Varieties of Faith in the Empire a book also found in TES V: Dragonborn DLC expansion.

      I pointed out that this lore book doesn't refer to the current Empire as the Third Empire. I even quote from Varieties of Faith in the Empire that the mention of Third Empire was referencing its foundation, not its continuation in the Fourth Era as shown in above comments.

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