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  • Ghost Anubis
    Ghost Anubis closed this thread because:
    Gone on for long enough & turned into just propaganda.
    22:36, January 10, 2015

    Just a simple yes or no question unless if you want to type a sentence about this

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    • This is about them being right about Talos.

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    • No, nords should be able to worship any gods they want.

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    • No, they are NOT correct. Even the OTHER divinities speak of "The Nine", implying that Talos is divine.

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    • No, Never in the history of anything are they right.......

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    • ^^^Truth. Truth. Truth. Truth. TRUTH. The Thalmor have their heads perpetually up their fecking arses. :)

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    • 71.61.178.23 wrote:
      ^^^Truth. Truth. Truth. Truth. TRUTH. The Thalmor have their heads perpetually up their fecking arses. :)

      Truth, Truth, Truth, Truth, The only good Thalmor, is a dead Thalmor.........

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    • Khaly believes they think they're right. Or they're just mad. Who knows? Khaly just wants them dead.

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    • they have a plan to take out the towers and mankind. getting rid of talos worship is part of that.

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    • They are right Talos was great man but he was no god.

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    • Even if Talos is not a god, the Thamor have no right to force their views on the Nords. And Yes Talos was devine, his blood being used to open the portol in Oblivion proves this.

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    • The only thing that proved was that Akatosh favoured him greatly.

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    • No, they needed devine blood, Talos' blood was the only blood they could get as he was the only one to ever have an artifact. if he wasnt devine, it wouldnt work. Talos is a god, death to the Thalmor.

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    • actually dibella had an artifact too. just didn't have any blood on it. it was a paint brush made with her hair.

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    • Talos had the literal blood of a dragon. Dragons are immortal so they are like devines. Alduin even claimed to be a god and no one even batted an eye. 

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    • i believe talos is a divine but i do not believe he deserves to be one.

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    • You know your doing something wrong when 89.9% of the world hates you

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    • Dylanisthebest123 wrote:
      You know your doing something wrong when 89.9% of the world hates you


      So...I'm doing something wrong then? (xD And no, I'm not Thalmor. I don't like the Thalmor. Dominion ftw.)

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    • I dislike the Thalmor but I thimk that they are right about this.

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    • I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      I dislike the Thalmor but I thimk that they are right about this.


      They're right about banning worship that in no way, shape, or form affects them at all? They're right about killing Nords just because they don't agree with their religion? They're right about treating us all like trash and planning to take over like they did many years ago?

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    • the thalmor hate humans. they are trying to kill them all and make sure that mankind is gone forever. they are trying to take out the towers and then become gods.

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    • I think they baned Talos to weaken the humans, If i remember right, elves reproduse slower, so they need time to recover. By making sure the humans keep fighting they assure they are able to keep an edge over the humans for the next war.

      They also act like they are better then they are just as flawed as humans, if they where really so much better, i wouldnt beable to kill them so fast.

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    • A: The humans in the game are just as racist as the elves but no-one cares about that.

      B:Do you ever see High Elves worshiping Auri-El? Do you see the Khajiit worshiping their gods? Do you see the Bosmer worshiping their gods? No, because if they did the Nords and Redguards and others would most likley kill them on sight.

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    • Not all of them. Imperials for example.


      ...How would you prove that?

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    • Yep. They are right. #AldmeriDominion #TalosSucksArse

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    • StormKhajiit wrote:
      Not all of them. Imperials for example.


      ...How would you prove that?


      AURI-EL! No Altmer is ever seen worsiping Auri-El, there are no amulets of Auri-El, no Shrines of Auri-El, no temples or preists of Auri-El (except the sanctuaries), and yet he killed the maker of the world by ripping out his heart.

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    • I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      StormKhajiit wrote:
      Not all of them. Imperials for example.


      ...How would you prove that?


      AURI-EL! No Altmer is ever seen worsiping Auri-El, there are no amulets of Auri-El, no Shrines of Auri-El, no temples or preists of Auri-El (except the sanctuaries), and yet he killed the maker of the world by ripping out his heart.


      Key words, "Ever seen". Just because we haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

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    • auri-el is another name for akatosh and there is 1 shrine of auri-el in the dawnguard dlc. it increases your archery skill for a short time.

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      1. FirstAldmeriDominion #DeathToThalmor
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    • I quit reason. AsjfdkghKJlhnfkbcjzchbkuzbheakhlrhu:lauhfdukskhkjaukvhkxcsdhfiunav ahfsdiuxclhzu! C'tulu Fahtang!

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    • I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      I quit reason. AsjfdkghKJlhnfkbcjzchbkuzbheakhlrhu:lauhfdukskhkjaukvhkxcsdhfiunav ahfsdiuxclhzu! C'tulu Fahtang!

      Alright. Well, it was fun debating with you, I mean no disrespect by disagreeing. You stuck to your opinion no matter what, so I commend you.


      Good day, sir.

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    • So because the Nords are rasist the others have the right? thats not how it works. If the elves where truely better they would take the morel hight ground, but they are just as bad if not worse in how they treat humans, they mistreat their own kind, they burned Bosmer villiges to the ground and put any who disagreed with them to the sword. Then they go to skryim (another county) and caputre and enslave not only those who follow Talos, but anybody they please (the member of the thieves guild). 

      The nords are not perfect, but the Elves are worse.

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    • Good day to you aswell.

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    • Why cant the thalmor just die and never come back?

      Who is with me on destroying the thalmor!

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    • 97.81.240.58 wrote:
      Why cant the thalmor just die and never come back?

      Who is with me on destroying the thalmor!

      I am. They are a disagrace to the first Dominion!

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    • StormKhajiit wrote:
      97.81.240.58 wrote:
      Why cant the thalmor just die and never come back?

      Who is with me on destroying the thalmor!

      I am. They are a disagrace to the first Dominion!

      I am too, MAKE THEM SUFFER!!!!!!!!!! URA!!!!!!!!!!

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    • Dylanisthebest123 wrote:
      You know your doing something wrong when 89.9% of the world hates you


      True but the Thalmor are too stupid and arrogant enough not to realize that.

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    • 97.81.240.58 wrote:
      Dylanisthebest123 wrote:
      You know your doing something wrong when 89.9% of the world hates you

      True but the Thalmor are too stupid and arrogant enough not to realize that.

      No they know, but they don't care, all they want is their own interests fulfilled, even if they have to kill every Human on Tamriel......

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    • They are taking things out of control but they claim to serve The Dominion so I accept their behaivor.

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    • Tiber Septim united all of Tamriel under one banner, for that he was ascended to god-hood. Praying at his shrine does grant you a buff and cure your diseases, so its safe to assume that he really is a Divine now.

      And to answer your question, In my fair opinion, the thalmor are wrong.

      Reason as to why, is because the Aldmeri Dominion claims they have ended the oblivion crisis, when we all know it was the Champion of Cyrodiil who did that. Moreover the empire has aided the summerset isles quite a few times before, including when the Maomer tried to raid the summerset islands free of any elves there, but they were driven off because of the Imperial Navy. Now as soon as The Empire was left weak without an emperor and the damage the oblivion crisis has caused, they just retreated from the empire and declared war on them taking advantage of the sittuation.

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    • Well, the thalmor dont claim to have ended the oblivion crisis, they just claim to have saved the altmer during it. But I still think the thamor are bad because, even outside of trying to force their belief on others, they were extremely cruel to almost every other race. I just think the empire is much better for everyone

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    • 78.18.248.90 wrote:
      Well, the thalmor dont claim to have ended the oblivion crisis, they just claim to have saved the altmer during it. But I still think the thamor are bad because, even outside of trying to force their belief on others, they were extremely cruel to almost every other race. I just think the empire is much better for everyone

      Oh, my bad. Yes they claim to have ended the oblivion crisis whitin the dominion, which is what makes them not trustworthy. They act all high and mighty around, as if tamriel was theirs by right. I kinda miss the septim dynasty of emperors a lot... It was Uriel Septim VII 's imprionment in oblivion that started Arena storyline and made the ethernal champion what he became. It was Emperor Uriel Septim VII 's request that started the daggerfall storyline. Once again it was from Uriel Septim VII 's order that the nerevarine was freed from the imperial city dungeons and sent to Vvardenfell. And it was Uriel Septim VII again that freed the hero of kvatch from prison. And it was his son, Martin Septim, that sacrificed himself to end the oblivion crisis. No matter how you look at it, they were the best for the empire. I wonder how would Martin Septim handle the great war? Perhaps the empire would of won

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    • Yes the Thalmor are right, because when lorkhan tricked the other spirits, they lost their divinity and became et'ada, the Thalmor want to get back their divinity, their rightful place as immortal spirits, by destroying the mortal plane of nirn, or unmaking mundus, the humans stand in their way, the humans are worse than trash, who don't deserve even to kiss an elven foot, I support the Thalmor in getting rid of mankind because I hate it, but even so, the destruction of nirn will benefit the humans too, since they're also ehlnofey, they're just weaker than the ehlnofey who gave origin to the elves, so they will go back to their former divine self. but the humans are too stupid to realize this, and value their mortality. also, Talos humiliated the elves when he conquered Tamriel, they're right in hating him, whether he's a god or not doesn't matter, if the elves don't wipe out humanity, they're the ones who will disappear, I hate Talos as well because he invaded morrowind and the other elven lands without any fair reason, just for the greed of being the emperor, if the humans didn't try to subjugate the elves I wouldn't even hate the humans at all, I'd just live my life, isolastionist, among other elves without having any contact with outlanders, but a more fair approach is of the new the aldmeri dominion under queen Ayrenn in TES Online, while they don't hate humans, they want to ensure the rule of Tamriel to the elves, since the humans are unstable and stupid and will bring but disaster to Tamriel, and of course because the elves are far superior than humans in every single way, this is my view when I play as an elf, when I play as a human I either support the Thalmor or go against them, depending on my character's personality (I'm a role player) and I always go against the empire, because I believe that the empire is weakening the humans, and making it easier for the Thalmor to succeed in their plans to wipe out humanity, the only human race that i ever played was Nord, I think that the human races would be much more strong and capable of defeating the Thalmor as allies, and not subordinated to the current corrupt empire, but I mostly play as elves, at long least both sides have their reasons to do what they're doing but I mostly agree with the Thalmor 

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    • The Thalmor hate Tiber Septim/Talos for two reasons, first he utterly crushed the First Aldmeri Dominion with the might of Numidium, they never even had a prayer. Secondly, when Tiber Septim, Wulfharth of Atmora, and Zurin Arctus became Talos/Ysmir they were simply becoming Lorkhan again. Think about it All of Talos' and Lorkhan/Shor/ Shezzar/Sep's traits mirror one another with the exception that Talos isn't openly acknowledged as being tied to the creation of Mundus. Lorkhan is a spirit of heroic endevor and battle (he also respects magic too, as his shield thane Tsun said). The reason the Thalmor have banned Talos worship is because his worship under all his other names has given way to this one. Lastly the Thalmor have only become desperate because of the metaphysical repercussions of the Oblivion Crisis on regaining godhood individually as Auriel/Akatosh tought them. Also even though the elves ancestors had somthing doesn't mean that the elves themselves are by default entitled to it. My theory is that another incarnation of the Nirn god of War, Talos/Lorkhan will crush the Thalmor sometime in the lore's future.

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    • I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      A: The humans in the game are just as racist as the elves but no-one cares about that.

      B:Do you ever see High Elves worshiping Auri-El? Do you see the Khajiit worshiping their gods? Do you see the Bosmer worshiping their gods? No, because if they did the Nords and Redguards and others would most likley kill them on sight.

      You often see Dark Elves worshiping Azura

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    • The Thalmor are wrong for trying to take away anyone's right to worship anything, and as previously stated in the forum the other Divines also recognize his status. But, while trying to understand everybodies point of view, the Thalmor's desire to cease the worship of Talos (who, mind you, is a human, and not an elf) is, while slightly immature, justifiable when seen thrrough any loyal Thalmor citizens point of view. Can't have those Impierials winning at anything, can we?

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    • Even some elves worship Talos, the High Elf Priest of Arkay in Falkreath, who used to be a mage in the Aldmeri Dominion's army during the Great War worships Talos secretly as evidinced by his journal.

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    • i have to wonder though, if the Thalmor actually succeed in their (*cough* insane *cough*) plans. They'll pretty much be finishing what Mehrunes Dagon started. 

      Kill the humans, shut down the towers (not that they can actually do that since the Adamantine towe is controlled by the Convention), and ascend to godhood, right?

      In actually, they'll just be breaking the structure of Mundus and I think we all know what happens when someone does that. (Oblivion Crisis anyone?) 

      I'm tempted to let them go through with their plans just to see their reactions when it all goes terribly wrong.

      BUT, to answer the original question: it's entirely based on POV. To the Thalmor and the rest of the Dominion, I'm sure that killing their ancestoral enemies and becoming gods sounds like a great idea. To everyone else, it would probably be less so. Does that make sense?

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    • The Thalmor are assuming that since they're devolved decsendents of Aedric Spirits, then they should be able to inherit their ancestors' positions. Perhaps since the elves also ironically owe their existence to Lorkhan's trick (otherwise the elves would have never been produced by the Aedric spirits) they would really ascend as much as their ancestors forming Nirn would be let loose.

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    • You guys seem to be forgetting some things. The Thalmor and the Dominion imposed those conditions in a war treaty. It's not supposed to be fair. They are just doing what they think is best for their race.

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    • What is ES 5 had been set in Summerset Isle? Don't lie to yourselves and say you would still have the same views.

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    • King of Skyrim wrote:
      No, Never in the history of anything are they right.......

      Except for, y'know the First Aldmeri Dominion.

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    • No. Talos earned his godhood and even the other Divines call themselves the Nine. Ulfric is a worthy leader willing to fight and die with honor to prevent religious persecution. The Thalmor are Nazis who believe in pure blood and discriminate against humans and even other elves they view as inferior. They persecute against religion and race and would prefer genocide during another war they may be planning on despite their treaty (a treaty only used to keep people subserviant). The Thalmor are never right and the Imperials are almost as bad for rolling over to their regime (taking slavery over the death of honorable warriors). Long live Ulfric Stormcloak and Talos be with you! ....Sorry about the rant. Short answer= NO.

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    • Which can be proven by the fact that the blood of Talos successfully opened the book-gate in Oblivion when only the blood of a true Divine could. Refute that, I dare you!

      - WorshipsMeridia

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    • William slattery wrote:
      No. Talos earned his godhood and even the other Divines call themselves the Nine. Ulfric is a worthy leader willing to fight and die with honor to prevent religious persecution. The Thalmor are Nazis who believe in pure blood and discriminate against humans and even other elves they view as inferior. They persecute against religion and race and would prefer genocide during another war they may be planning on despite their treaty (a treaty only used to keep people subserviant). The Thalmor are never right and the Imperials are almost as bad for rolling over to their regime (taking slavery over the death of honorable warriors). Long live Ulfric Stormcloak and Talos be with you! ....Sorry about the rant. Short answer= NO.

      The empire would of been crushed would the White-Gold Concordat not be signed, do you not realise what would of happen to all the other provinces shall the empire fall? Considering all of tamriel was part of the empire, and had their politics, economy and war power because they were part of the empire, they would all be left weak and in mayhem... the aldmeri domonion would just conquer them one after another...think about, if the empire as one was not able to defeat the dominion, then how do you think the individual provinces would of have a stand in it alone? Not to mention that the empire didnt became the thalmor's allies over night, as General Tullius says "Not sure how longer our peace with the dominion will last" The empire is probably only regaining its power and rebuilding its army to then strike the elves again...its a proof of having a stronger will, instead of giving up life like nords do. More over, ulfric dosent seem to care for the life of anyone who isnt nord, and why is that? Isnt he fighting against the Altmers in the name of those that the altmers hurt? And how exactly is he a fine leader when he murdered the High King without allowing the high king the chance for a fair duel, he used his voice. How do you call it fair combat to use a power against somebody that dosent have it, and turn a wife into a widow without even thinking about the consequences... his hatred for the empire and thirst for the throne was longer before the thalmor forbid the worship of talos... he used it for a reasson to gather the confued people of skyrim to fight under his banner... Can you not notice the living conditions of windhelm and the cities under his control? With thieves and criminals runing free to kill whoever they want? Not to mention that his civil war is helping the thalmor as mentioned inside the information about ulfric stormcloak found in the thalmor embassy. If he's killed, during the end quest of the main story line, his soul in sovngarde realises that his actions hurted skyrim a lot and he's regreting it.

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    • So in conclusion the signing of the White-Gold Concordat was the lesser of two evils: Persucution against a few Talos-Worshippers or the destruction of a Nation.

      Which would you choose if you were the Emperor?

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    • It's just like Fable: You must choose between the needs of the Many and the needs of the Few.

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    • Zad Enn wrote:
      The empire would of been crushed would the White-Gold Concordat not be signed, do you not realise what would of happen to all the other provinces shall the empire fall? Considering all of tamriel was part of the empire, and had their politics, economy and war power because they were part of the empire, they would all be left weak and in mayhem... the aldmeri domonion would just conquer them one after another...think about, if the empire as one was not able to defeat the dominion, then how do you think the individual provinces would of have a stand in it alone? Not to mention that the empire didnt became the thalmor's allies over night, as General Tullius says "Not sure how longer our peace with the dominion will last" The empire is probably only regaining its power and rebuilding its army to then strike the elves again...its a proof of having a stronger will, instead of giving up life like nords do. More over, ulfric dosent seem to care for the life of anyone who isnt nord, and why is that? Isnt he fighting against the Altmers in the name of those that the altmers hurt? And how exactly is he a fine leader when he murdered the High King without allowing the high king the chance for a fair duel, he used his voice. How do you call it fair combat to use a power against somebody that dosent have it, and turn a wife into a widow without even thinking about the consequences... his hatred for the empire and thirst for the throne was longer before the thalmor forbid the worship of talos... he used it for a reasson to gather the confued people of skyrim to fight under his banner... Can you not notice the living conditions of windhelm and the cities under his control? With thieves and criminals runing free to kill whoever they want? Not to mention that his civil war is helping the thalmor as mentioned inside the information about ulfric stormcloak found in the thalmor embassy. If he's killed, during the end quest of the main story line, his soul in sovngarde realises that his actions hurted skyrim a lot and he's regreting it.


      Ulfric may regret unintentionally aiding the Thalmor, but Skyrim needs a regime that will attack the Thalmor before they are ready to attack first. Also, about Ulfric and the High King. He didn't "murder" him. It was a duel for the right to the throne as is Nord custom and Torygg accepted. Ulfric's shout wasn't unfair. Spells and other extra ordinary abilities are common place (Draugr Deathlords, Dragons and the Greybeards all know shouts). It was a legitimate duel and the Imperials called foul when their king lost. BTW, I don't take kindly to your negative opinion toward thieves and criminals (I'm a thief and a criminal, but I don't murder anybody that doesn't attack first). I'm also a Dunmer. Not all Mer feel discriminated against. There's even an Altmer merchant in Windhelm who feels accepted (and has a moderately positive attitude). You can't can't keep blaming others for being poor. There are numerous job opportunities in Skyrim (some of them legal) especially for those with the skill sets of a Dunmer. If they had money, they could move anywhere or even renovate their current home. Some guards may be racist, but Ulfric is just unconcerned with quality of life (not saying that's a good attitude to have, but at least he doesn't submit to Mer who are actually bad). Also, the Grey-Manes support the Companions and the Stormcloaks and the Companions allow all to join their ranks (incluing Dunmer). Some Dunmer (and other Mer) feel more discriminated against by the Altmer than the Nords and are willing to fight for their new home rather than complain about problems they refuse to work to fix. Lets use a real world comparison. If Nazi Germany (the Thalmor) started winning and gave us the option of a treaty sparing the lives of american (imperial) and all jewish (Nord) civilians, but the jewish people could no longer practice their faith. Believing in God (the 8 divines) is ok, but all other aspects of the jewish religion (*CONFIRMED* Nord belief that Talos rose to godhood) are illegal, those who break that law are executed without trial and the american military (Imperial Soldiers) will have to lend their support. There are many who would rather face certain death (or extinction) rather than submit to the Nazi regime (and they wouldn't be wrong).

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    • Pastlife17 wrote:
      It's just like Fable: You must choose between the needs of the Many and the needs of the Few.

      in fable 2 i chose to get the dog back...screw the needs of the many!

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    • I believe the thalmor are right. Talos was a man who supposedly became a divine. Talos himself was a warlord who forced the rightful natives of Skyrim out of their home and claimed it for himself. The worst thing is that ulfrics so called rebellion is destroying the empire Talos created. Last but not least would a divine or god want you to kill in his name?

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    • The thing about the White-Gold Concordat is that it had to be signed because although the Thalmor armies in Cyrodil were completely destroyed, and the Thalmor stood no chance of taking Hammerfell, the war had developed into a stalemate. Though the Empire could have beaten the Dominion, they would have been unable to do so without mortally wounding the Empire (because come on, does anyone here really belive that the Dominion wouldn't try and take the rest of Tamriel down with them if they knew they'd lose).

      Also all the talk about the Empire basically throwing in the towel is untrue, by what General Tulius mentions a second war with the Thalmor is on the horizon and the Empire knows it. The Concordat was simply to buy some breathing time for the second round, and the only reason the Thalmor got any results at the begininning of the Great war is because of a sneak attack, and the Thalmor still couldn't win a solid victory over the Empire, the War basically ended in military stalemate. So just imagine how the second war would go if the Empire were prepared against any Dominion sneak attack.

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    • I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      They are right Talos was great man but he was no god.

      He was not a chuffing great man! Get that shit outta here!

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    • Knight of Camlorn wrote:
      I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      They are right Talos was great man but he was no god.
      He was not a chuffing great man! Get that shit outta here!

      Talos is basically the Elder Scrolls equivalent of Alexander the Great and Augustus. Talos conquered/ruled the known world and was apotheosized upon death. Alexander conquered Asia (as much as Greek civilization knew existed at the time), and Augustus launched the Pax Romana (after Talos conquered all of Tamriel there was a great peace for a couple centuries until the War of the Red Diamond, so basically it was the Pax Talosia). Lastly both Alexander and Augustus were considered gods (and worshiped as such) after their deaths; both men are even considered Great despite all thier actions to reach the top (Alexander and Augustus were utterly ruthless).

      Remember, being called Great simply means you had outstanding achievements that benefited the world while also reshaping it ( or a large part of it). Just look up what most of the figures known as Great did to recieve that title, Charles the Great (Charlemagne), Alexander the Great, Peter the Great( modernized Russia and built St. Petersburg), Cyrus the Great (created the first Persian Empire).

      So really Talos/Tiber Septim would deserve to be on Tamriel's great list with Reman Cyrodil ( and rank higher too) for bringing peace and stability to Tamriel, while also wiping the floor with the First Aldmeri Dominion (Numidium).

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    • The divines helped create mundus so they deserve to be worshipped. However Talos has killed people and drove the natives of the land so the nords could have it. You may not agree with me but we are entitled to our own opinion

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    • I was simply making an obsevation based upon other examples in history. The title great for a ruler doesn't always require good deeds, just that they win in the end.

      Besides, as for the status to the Divines on Mundus, isn't it just a little strange that Talos has ALL of the traits of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezzar/Sep, and Talos worship has all but substituted Lorkhan worship in all it's names? Talos is the champion of humanity in the game series the same as Lorkhan was/is. By observing this, one should come to the conclusion that Talos is just the newest name for Lorkhan. If you disagree with the idea that Talos was Lorkhan incarnated, then there's another way around that: mantleing a diety. The way metaphsics works in the  Elder Scrolls univerese is that if a person becomes so like a deity then they basically become that deity (or a part of it). Remember how the Hero of Kvatch mantles Sheogorath at the end of Shivering Isles and between the events of Oblivion and Skyrim (easily explainable as deities may take whatever form they please).

      So the Thalmor's objection with Talos worship is really just an objection with Lorkhan worhip (because they feel that this Divine cheated their ancestor out of divinity by creating Mundus, the Mortal Plane). Before someone uses the, "but the Thalmor are just doing what's best for all of Elvendom" card, remember that they periodically go on pogroms in Valenwood killing off settlements of Bosmer (the Bosmer waiter in Diplomatic Immunity helps you for this reason), the Thalmor took power in the Summerset Isles by killing off all of thier opponent and monarchs of the Summerset Isles in one night (One of the Skyrim book series mentions this: The Rising Threat, written by an Altmer no less), and not all Altmer agree with the Thalmor or their ban on Talos (an Altmer Legate in the Legion had to flee the Isles with his parents, and the Falkrieth Priest of Arkay, who's Altmer, worships Talos). Also, the Thalmor forced the Bosmer country to join, despite the majority not wanting to.

      As for Talos forcing the native out of Skyrim? That was the Reach, and they were't forced off as they are still there ( as for the natives of Skyrim, Ysgramor forced them off because the Falmor slaghtered all of the humans of Saarthal because they were increasing in numbers to quickly). Remember that everything Talos did to the Reach was under Cuhlecain's orders, so using both Talos's conquest of the Reach and his betrayal of Cuhlecain as reasons for why he's "bad" seems a bit hypocritical.

      Lastly, I was respecting your opinion, but I just have to point somthing out, the Thalmor are meant to be an antagonistic force in The Elder Scrolls (much like the Mythic Dawn and Dagoth Ur) and there is no way to aid them in a sinificant way. So you can basically see that the Thalmor philosophy is predestined to lose (and even if they are "good", Dagoth Ur's philosophy of spreading divinity was much better, yet he lost). Alsp remember that Talos/Lorkhan is basically a spirit of heroic endeavor, so  if you want to know whay type of heroics just think Beawulf, Gilgamesh, Achilles, Aeneas, Theseus, and Romulus (who killed his brother Remus to found Rome).

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    • Besides, there are a few proofs to Talos' divinity in the Elder Scrolls, the ritual Martin did in Oblivion required the pure blood of an Aedra (not the blood of an Aedra mixed in a mortal) Talos' blood was used (though the brush of true paint could theoretically be used). Second, there's prayer, in the Elder Scrolls (unlike in real life) if you pray at a shrine and reciece a blessing, then the diety in question exists, if you don't recive a blessing, then they don't exist. Just look up the Thalmor grand master plan (self titled), someone on the wiki should be able to provide a link (and yes the page is canon as I hear one of the game developers wrote it officially).

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    • I agree with what you are saying and I enjoyed reading your lengthy post. Welldone

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    • Draconi Nascentum Imperatore wrote:
      Besides, there are a few proofs to Talos' divinity in the Elder Scrolls, the ritual Martin did in Oblivion required the pure blood of an Aedra (not the blood of an Aedra mixed in a mortal) Talos' blood was used (though the brush of true paint could theoretically be used). Second, there's prayer, in the Elder Scrolls (unlike in real life) if you pray at a shrine and reciece a blessing, then the diety in question exists, if you don't recive a blessing, then they don't exist. Just look up the Thalmor grand master plan (self titled), someone on the wiki should be able to provide a link (and yes the page is canon as I hear one of the game developers wrote it officially).

      Um, this is quite Ironic, but the shrine of Talos gives me a bonus to shouts of precisely 0%.

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    • Pastlife17 wrote:
      It's just like Fable: You must choose between the needs of the Many and the needs of the Few.


      I thoght that was a quote from Wrath Of Kahn. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Spock

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    • Knight of Camlorn wrote:
      Draconi Nascentum Imperatore wrote:
      Besides, there are a few proofs to Talos' divinity in the Elder Scrolls, the ritual Martin did in Oblivion required the pure blood of an Aedra (not the blood of an Aedra mixed in a mortal) Talos' blood was used (though the brush of true paint could theoretically be used). Second, there's prayer, in the Elder Scrolls (unlike in real life) if you pray at a shrine and reciece a blessing, then the diety in question exists, if you don't recive a blessing, then they don't exist. Just look up the Thalmor grand master plan (self titled), someone on the wiki should be able to provide a link (and yes the page is canon as I hear one of the game developers wrote it officially).
      Um, this is quite Ironic, but the shrine of Talos gives me a bonus to shouts of precisely 0%.

      I know, but supposedly the reason the description mentions you should get shout cooldown percentage, you get 0%. I've read that it's mostly a graphical bug.

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    • William slattery wrote:
      Pastlife17 wrote:
      It's just like Fable: You must choose between the needs of the Many and the needs of the Few.

      I thoght that was a quote from Wrath Of Kahn. "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few" - Spock

      (SPOILERS FOR FABLE 2) I guess it was but at the end of fable you can choose to help the many (revive all that died building the spire), the few (revive sister and dog), or the one(you get 1,000,000 gold)

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    • Anyways back on topic it is legitimate to say that the Thalmor are the Nazis of Skyrim. But I question Ulfric's logic: He would rather attack the Imperials, who probably want to destroy the Thalmor as much as them, then attack the Thalmor who are the source of the problem. If they made a lasting peace treaty then they would have two entire armys to fight the Thalmor with.

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    • Pastlife17 wrote:
      Anyways back on topic it is legitimate to say that the Thalmor are the Nazis of Skyrim. But I question Ulfric's logic: He would rather attack the Imperials, who probably want to destroy the Thalmor as much as them, then attack the Thalmor who are the source of the problem. If they made a lasting peace treaty then they would have two entire armys to fight the Thalmor with.

      If Ulfric attacked the Thalmor (like he wants), the Imperials would attack him. Them being in power and both fighting against him, Ulfric would have lost quickly. The Thalmor are like Nazis and the Imperials are like German citizens and soldiers. They know of the atrocities, executions without trial and religious/racial discrimination, but are afraid to fight with Ulfric against a foe who beat them once and is potentially stronger. They're afraid of recieving honorable deaths fighting for what's right. If the Imperials would even try to help it's people, Ulfric wouldn't have even gone for the throne. He's doing what's necessary and taking out the puppets to get to the masters. It's sad that Troygg had to die, but they fought like true Nords and he died with honor. Ulfric's logic isn't perfect, but he's had to compensate for Imperial interferance. Considering all, his logic and stragety are sound. Ulfric is willing to gain Skyrim's freedom or die in the quest.

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    • No, if Ulfric wins the Civil War and gets a peace treaty, he'd be free to attack the Thalmor without Imperial attack (at least until he's done the Thalmor enough damage so that the Empire can snap up both the Dominion and Skyrim). In the Concordat the Thalmor never wrote down a defensive pact, only territorial, administrative, and religious concessions.

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    • Blast it all Thalmor your annoying at everything.

      Just leave the Talos worshipers alone!

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:
      I believe the thalmor are right. Talos was a man who supposedly became a divine. Talos himself was a warlord who forced the rightful natives of Skyrim out of their home and claimed it for himself. The worst thing is that ulfrics so called rebellion is destroying the empire Talos created. Last but not least would a divine or god want you to kill in his name?


      empires rise and fall, theres nothing we can do about it, the empire is being destroyed any by signing the white gold concordant.... either way banning talos worship was wrong. its like banning cristianity.

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    • As long as they don't ban worship of Chuck Norris and Morgan Freeman, I'm ok.But they are still pieces of crap.Thalmor can die. Aldmeri Dominion can become the new empire.

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    • Tiber Septim was a Nord hero. When Nord heroes die, they go to Sovngarde. When you go there in Skyrim, good ole Tiber isn't there. Why? He's chilling with the other Eight Divines.

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    • I feel like this thread has become nothing more than bashing the Thalmor/Aldmeri, so if we can get it back on topic (as 70.162.241.200 kind of has) that would be great.

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    • PsijicThief
      PsijicThief removed this reply because:
      Awkward post, user did not intend.
      14:24, July 1, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • I have no idea what just happened.

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    • Is Talos in Sovengard? If he was a great human warrior, shouldn't he have gone to Sovengard? Well he didn't. This is pretty solid evidance for deification.

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    • If Talos was made a divine for all the great things he did, then how come the Dragonborn or the Hero of Kyvatch or any other hero in the Elder scrolls series made a Divine????

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    • To thunderscreamer, Tiber septim may have not been an Atmoran but actually a breton so that may exclude him from Sovngarde.

      To the Talmor assasian, Talos the diety is not believed to be a straight transformation from man to god. The lore community genereally agrees that Talos is actually an amalgamation of Tiber Septim, Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus. Their souls were combined through an artifact of great power called the Mantella, this leads to the creation of the oversoul known as Talos.

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    • I think the Thalmor are wrong to censor the worship of Talos, but I'm a follower of Meridia so it doesn't affect me as much.

      Even though Talos was a scumbag, he was still likely a divine due to his blood being used as the blood of a divine.

      The Thalmor remind me of the Death Eaters: They want to put the "subserviant" race (man and beast) under their foot because they think they're so freaking special

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    • Thalmor Assassin wrote:
      If Talos was made a divine for all the great things he did, then how come the Dragonborn or the Hero of Kyvatch or any other hero in the Elder scrolls series made a Divine????

      Honestly, Martin Septim was more impressive than the Hero during the Crisis. He turned into a freaking dragon.

      MARTIN FOR GODHOOD!

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    • Something to keep in mind on the Hero to godhood bit is that they were all prophesy.  They were intended to do what they did by the gods, it was - practically - their whole purpose for being.  Tiber Septim did what he did without the forward planning of the Divine, albeit with their blessing, and this is part of what made him so great.  He was a powerful man and could have done great good or great evil (granted, so could each Hero, but that would defeat the purpose of the canon and the prophesy . . . we have to take player-choice out of the equation for the arguement of lore).

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    • Which goes further to prove the paradox of lore-heavy Rpgs.

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    • Knight of Camlorn wrote:
      Which goes further to prove the paradox of lore-heavy Rpgs.

      True, but we wouldn't have such deep philosophical discussions if they weren't paradoxical, eh?

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    • B'ig Diq hates the thalmor, they stole his skooma, for this they will be punished

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    •  

      Two mer were walking in the street.One was a coward.The second was a Thalmor too,

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    • Ok... that was random.

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    • Thunderscreamer wrote:
      Is Talos in Sovengard? If he was a great human warrior, shouldn't he have gone to Sovengard? Well he didn't. This is pretty solid evidance for deification.

      I dont want to destroy your "solid evidence" but Sovngarde is where nords' spirits go when they die. Talos was made a divine at his death,  he couldnt have arrived in Sovngarde if he was made a god... on another hand if you still believe that all nords go into sovngarde regardless with no exception then think about it this way, Shor is said to be in sovngarde, but he is "so magnificent that he cannot be seen" If Talos became a divine after his death and arrived in sovngarde, wouldnt that mean he's like Shor?

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    • Talos wasn't a Nord, he was Atmoran... His freaking name is Talos of Atmora. He's not the god of the Nords, either, he's the god of MEN, which is why Tullius can be heard invoking Talos.

      (Nobody else seemed to mention this)

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    • Ambiesusi wrote:
      Talos wasn't a Nord, he was Atmoran... His freaking name is Talos of Atmora. He's not the god of the Nords, either, he's the god of MEN, which is why Tullius can be heard invoking Talos.

      (Nobody else seemed to mention this)

      They never actually state his race, but I always assumed he was a Breton who moved to Skyrim and assumed a Nord name when he joined the military. However, you're right, he may have been the last surviving Atmoran for all we know. His title as "Talos of Atmora" has little to do with it. Bretons have called Almora home for quite some time.

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    • its good that the thalmor are in skyrim though because its free elven armor up by the vampire castle (forgot the name of it).

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    • Castle Volkihar

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    • The thalmor are like the nazis of the elder scrolls, snappy dressers but wrong about everything.

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    • The Thalmor are a extremist group. To many people think that all Altmer are Evil. Think about Germany during WW2 or North Korea. A few bad people ruin the reputation of a nation.

      Bottom line is that all Altmer are not Evil.  

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    • True, but it can be said that, while Altmer aren't evil, most are certainly mean or rude (The elves at Radiant Raiment come to mind)

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    • William slattery wrote:
      Ambiesusi wrote:
      Talos wasn't a Nord, he was Atmoran... His freaking name is Talos of Atmora. He's not the god of the Nords, either, he's the god of MEN, which is why Tullius can be heard invoking Talos.

      (Nobody else seemed to mention this)

      They never actually state his race, but I always assumed he was a Breton who moved to Skyrim and assumed a Nord name when he joined the military. However, you're right, he may have been the last surviving Atmoran for all we know. His title as "Talos of Atmora" has little to do with it. Bretons have called Almora home for quite some time.

      Aren't Bretons from High Rock? Even so Talo's race would be Aedric, since he is a divine (if that's what you believe)

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    • 72.228.21.119 wrote:
      Alduin1996 wrote:
      I believe the thalmor are right. Talos was a man who supposedly became a divine. Talos himself was a warlord who forced the rightful natives of Skyrim out of their home and claimed it for himself. The worst thing is that ulfrics so called rebellion is destroying the empire Talos created. Last but not least would a divine or god want you to kill in his name?

      Empires rise and fall, there's nothing we can do about it, the Empire is being destroyed anyway by signing the White Gold Concordant.... either way banning Talos worship was wrong. It's like banning Christianity.

      How is the Empire being destroyed? For f*** sake the W-G-C SAVED the Empire. Better the Dominion oppress Skyrim rather than control it.

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    • Pastlife17 wrote:
      William slattery wrote:
      Ambiesusi wrote:
      Talos wasn't a Nord, he was Atmoran... His freaking name is Talos of Atmora. He's not the god of the Nords, either, he's the god of MEN, which is why Tullius can be heard invoking Talos.

      (Nobody else seemed to mention this)

      They never actually state his race, but I always assumed he was a Breton who moved to Skyrim and assumed a Nord name when he joined the military. However, you're right, he may have been the last surviving Atmoran for all we know. His title as "Talos of Atmora" has little to do with it. Bretons have called Almora home for quite some time.
      Aren't Bretons from High Rock? Even so Talo's race would be Aedric, since he is a divine (if that's what you believe)

      I read that he was born on the island of Alcaire, which I thought was part of High Rock. Also, I do believe he is now a divine, but that doesn't mean he wasn't whatever race he was before he died.

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    • I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      They are right Talos was great man but he was no god.

      Your right on this one but someone told that in oblivion that one mission you use tiber septims(Talos) blood to open a gate. So that means he must be a divine right... No wrong i believe his blood is divine because he is dragonborn not a divine. His bloods is only divine not him because other dragonborns created by Akatosh didnt become gods so why would he?

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    • THErussiankid wrote:
      I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      They are right Talos was great man but he was no god.
      Your right on this one but someone told that in oblivion that one mission you use tiber septims(Talos) blood to open a gate. So that means he must be a divine right... No wrong i believe his blood is divine because he is dragonborn not a divine. His bloods is only divine not him because other dragonborns created by Akatosh didnt become gods so why would he?


      The other Divines refer to themselves as the Nine. His shrine gives a legitimate blessing. Being Dragonborn is unique, but doesn't grant divinity (hence the others with the status of Dragonborn not being Divine). You don't become a Daedric Prince because you've gained (for example) Nightengale Strife. Talos rose to godhood because of his deeds, not his blood.

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    • William slattery wrote:
      THErussiankid wrote:
      I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      They are right Talos was great man but he was no god.
      Your right on this one but someone told that in oblivion that one mission you use tiber septims(Talos) blood to open a gate. So that means he must be a divine right... No wrong i believe his blood is divine because he is dragonborn not a divine. His bloods is only divine not him because other dragonborns created by Akatosh didnt become gods so why would he?

      The other Divines refer to themselves as the Nine. His shrine gives a legitimate blessing. Being Dragonborn is unique, but doesn't grant divinity (hence the others with the status of Dragonborn not being Divine). You don't become a Daedric Prince because you've gained (for example) Nightengale Strife. Talos rose to godhood because of his deeds, not his blood.

      Well that means anyone can rise to godhood right. So thats why i dont believe he is a god. Cus that means that any mortal who has done alot of good deeds can be a god.

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    • Pastlife17 wrote:
      True, but it can be said that, while Altmer aren't evil, most are certainly mean or rude (The elves at Radiant Raiment come to mind)


      Then there are some nice ones as well! Like the man at Windhelm Stables.

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    • THErussiankid wrote:
      William slattery wrote:
      THErussiankid wrote:
      I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      They are right Talos was great man but he was no god.
      Your right on this one but someone told that in oblivion that one mission you use tiber septims(Talos) blood to open a gate. So that means he must be a divine right... No wrong i believe his blood is divine because he is dragonborn not a divine. His bloods is only divine not him because other dragonborns created by Akatosh didnt become gods so why would he?

      The other Divines refer to themselves as the Nine. His shrine gives a legitimate blessing. Being Dragonborn is unique, but doesn't grant divinity (hence the others with the status of Dragonborn not being Divine). You don't become a Daedric Prince because you've gained (for example) Nightengale Strife. Talos rose to godhood because of his deeds, not his blood.
      Well that means anyone can rise to godhood right. So thats why i dont believe he is a god. Cus that means that any mortal who has done alot of good deeds can be a god.

      Anyone probably can, but it's highly unlikely. They probably choose a new God if there's a new need to be filled. Talos may have filled a need that didn't exist before and was the mortal who most embodied that position. Also, no one knows for sure if a God can or can't kill another, so if they ever have a disagreement and one dies, they may need to replace him/her (although that hasn't happened yet). It's not a new concept to have a mortal become a God. In the God of War series, Kratos went from Warrior of the gods to god killer to God of War (before being dethroned). It may also be possible to get a majority rule and "vote" to have a od depowered simular to what the Q Continuum did to Q in Star Trek.

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    • No they want to destroy humanity in order to ascend to the gods

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    • They say Talos is not divine, but in the main Oblivion questline, you are told to get the blood of the divine as part of getting a portal open to Mankar Camoran's plane of Oblivion. The only divine blood that they knew was on the armor of Tiber Septim, and guess what? It worked. Talos is divine and the Thalmor are trying to destroy the towers in order to achieve imortality and go to Aetherius. Damn Thalmor...

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    • William slattery wrote:
      THErussiankid wrote:
      William slattery wrote:
      THErussiankid wrote:
      I Like Bow Ties Bow Ties Are Cool wrote:
      They are right Talos was great man but he was no god.
      Your right on this one but someone told that in oblivion that one mission you use tiber septims(Talos) blood to open a gate. So that means he must be a divine right... No wrong i believe his blood is divine because he is dragonborn not a divine. His bloods is only divine not him because other dragonborns created by Akatosh didnt become gods so why would he?

      The other Divines refer to themselves as the Nine. His shrine gives a legitimate blessing. Being Dragonborn is unique, but doesn't grant divinity (hence the others with the status of Dragonborn not being Divine). You don't become a Daedric Prince because you've gained (for example) Nightengale Strife. Talos rose to godhood because of his deeds, not his blood.
      Well that means anyone can rise to godhood right. So thats why i dont believe he is a god. Cus that means that any mortal who has done alot of good deeds can be a god.
      Anyone probably can, but it's highly unlikely. They probably choose a new God if there's a new need to be filled. Talos may have filled a need that didn't exist before and was the mortal who most embodied that position. Also, no one knows for sure if a God can or can't kill another, so if they ever have a disagreement and one dies, they may need to replace him/her (although that hasn't happened yet). It's not a new concept to have a mortal become a God. In the God of War series, Kratos went from Warrior of the gods to god killer to God of War (before being dethroned). It may also be possible to get a majority rule and "vote" to have a od depowered simular to what the Q Continuum did to Q in Star Trek.

      So why did Tiber Septim rise to god hood if he did? if other people have done good dead also if not better or more important that of Tiber himself. I meen Tiber did alot of good deeds but others have done better.

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    • This was actually the reason that I hemmed and hawed over the Imperials versus Stormcloaks. Imperials have the Thalamor, which banned Talos worship.

      And I'm of the personal opinion that if your religion doesn't make attempts to hurt anyone, that there's no reason you can't worship a shoe if you so desired.

      Are they right about Talos' godhood? That depends on whether or not we consider the blessings of the gods to be a psychological effect, or literal blessing from the gods in the game.

      If the former, then most would assume that the Dunmer, who don't worship most of the Aedra, would not recive the blessings from all of the shrines.

      If the latter, well then, it's likely that Talos is a god.

      Regardless, they aren't in the right for banning one deity's worship, specially when they aspire to godhood themselves.

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    • This is deeper of dicussion then I thought it would be.

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    • The Thalmor will never win!

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    • THErussiankid wrote:
      So why did Tiber Septim rise to god hood if he did? if other people have done good dead also if not better or more important that of Tiber himself. I meen Tiber did alot of good deeds but others have done better.

      Done better? Tiber united all of Tamriel. He became the God of war and governance, a position the other divines may have decided they needed at that time and Tiber Septim was the best at what he did. He also survived assassination attempts and even appeared as a dragon to some Nords (evidence of him possibly being a Nord, having more divine blood than any other Dragonborn before or since and or being fated to rise to godhood).

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    • I hate the Thalmor for making the Stormcloaks give up Talos, and I'm an Empire man for the bone. They can't get rid of anything they don't like. And that is why I laugh like a maniac when I kill them.

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    • Yeah? I ate everyone at the Embassary, just like Grelod!

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    • It depends what aspect your thinking of they're not right on:

      Banning Talos Worship

      Plan to destory the world (Towers theory)

      Enslavement of men

      Asensition to god

      But they are right in some ways which might spark a massive debate, The empire needs a refreshment its dying its cold its done. The glory days of the septims are gone, The thalmor aren't the new empire we need but they might pave the way to it. A common enemy with the imperials,redguards,bretons, orks(possibily) and nords

      That is a lethal combintion and if the empire realised they can continue to fight the thalmor and maybe find a empire better than the septim era a time with no wars just unity. Aswell they could be right on the point talos from there side. Talos a man who united tameriel isn't it a bit strange that it wasn't proclaimed by the divines that he is a god? Yes it is normaly it would of been proclaimed the stars arranged like talos? And imagine would you want to worship a god who came to your land and destoryed your armies? No you would not it would be like if the akaviri came over and there emperor conquered Tamriel and said "I'M A GOD NOW WORSHIP ME" The races of Tamriel would say "No." Thats what the thalmor are doing.

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    • Pastlife17 wrote:
      Yeah? I ate everyone at the Embassary, just like Grelod!


      So, you're a cannabal?

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    • Are the Thalmor right?

      Is Lil' Wayne a good rapper?

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    • Windhelm Guard wrote:
      Are the Thalmor right?

      Is Lil' Wayne a good rapper?


      No and err..... NO.

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    • Windhelm Guard wrote:
      Are the Thalmor right?

      Is Lil' Wayne a good rapper?

      ?

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    • Yes I finally found it.

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    • King of Skyrim wrote:
      71.61.178.23 wrote:
      ^^^Truth. Truth. Truth. Truth. TRUTH. The Thalmor have their heads perpetually up their fecking arses. :)
      Truth, Truth, Truth, Truth, The only good Thalmor, is a dead Thalmor..

      unless that elf is the dragonborn

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    • Honestly, i just think the thalmor are manipulating both sides to their own desires. Tactically speaking it's far better to take out your opposition if they're fighting amongst themselves then fighting both head on. The whole tone of them seem quite arrogant and holier than thou which i can't understand why both the imperials or stormcloaks would risk weakening themselves when both have common enemy; Aldmeri Dominion. 

      Banning Talos is wrong though even more so killing someone who worships it. It's definitely akin to Nazi's killing jews or people with blonde hair or blue eyes(iirc hitler did kill people with those traits)

      Not all elves are bad but when a group like this who are elves start being very radical you can't help but feel like it ruins the rest of the race view on everyone else. 

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    • On the subject of war over the whole situation, I can tell that the Altmer and very stubborn people and now they have made this contract with the Emperor they will follow it through. Though, if you've done the DB questline, you have to wonder if the contract still stands due to the Emperors death or the documents worth perished once the ruler of Tamriel was killed.

      They're only outlawing Talos and causing a huge Civil War because of how the Nords had treated the Elves. They are only using Talos outlawing as a means to an end to HURT the Nords.

      - Speaker

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    • No they're not all right-they're just bolt and magic fodder!

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    • DubiousPeddler
      DubiousPeddler removed this reply because:
      t
      19:33, October 4, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • Yes and no. 

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    • Ew, no. I don't care too much about Talos worship or the Stormcloak/Imperial war, but the Thalmor have some incredibly nasty views on race, for example. They even commit Nazi-style purges against the Bosmer, who they are officially allied with (see: Malborn's family, etc). They also believe that they are the rightful rulers of all of Tamriel, based on their "superior" High Elf blood.

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    • @Shockstorm. Why did the Thamor commit purges against the Wood Elves. They are their allies

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    • They also kill Altmer who aren't Altmer enough to suit them.

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    • Alduin1996 wrote: @Shockstorm. Why did the Thamor commit purges against the Wood Elves. They are their allies

      Yeah, it doesn't make much sense. I'm not sure why, honestly.

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    • Right well I am going to have to do some research on the topic 

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    • 97.81.240.58 wrote:
      Just a simple yes or no question unless if you want to type a sentence about this


      have you not played oblivion?

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    • In my idea, Tiber Septim didn't deserve to ascend to godhood. If nothing else, Pelinal Whitestrake would have a better claim. Or even the Nerevarine.

      I don't consider Talos a 'true' god, but I wouldn't kill anyone who disagrees with me, either.

      I say that's where the Thalmor are wrong. You don't like Talos? Fine, but don't go killing those who do.

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    • he didn't become a god because he 'deserved it' he became a god because, well because he tricked the universe into believing he and lorkhan were the same being.

      he tricked his way into godhood, by claiming the role of the trickster god.

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    • But... doesn't that mean he didn't deserve it?

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    • No, he might have also deserved it, but whether or not he deserved it is irrelevent.

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    • True.

      I say we shake hands, pee and go sleep it off.

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    • I don't need to pee, but I'd shake your hand if we were in person.

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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      he didn't become a god because he 'deserved it' he became a god because, well because he tricked the universe into believing he and lorkhan were the same being.

      he tricked his way into godhood, by claiming the role of the trickster god.

      By tricking your way claiming you and lorkhan were the same doesn't mean he should have become a god. Therefor the current gods had no right in doing so. You stated whether he deserved it is irrelevant however that can't be possible; if he deserved it then the gods made it so. If he didn't deserved it and was tricking others into believing he and lorkhan was the same then clearly the gods wouldn't have made him a god. 

      In other words what i'm saying is clearly your incorrect that he tricked others into believing this. The gods must have felt he is a tremendous help in the world and he fit a role that was missing amongst the other gods. Thus he became a god. I see no real reason why they would make someone a god who was tricking people into believing he was someone else. That's like saying I'm truly god irl and I should ascend to being a god when I die. It makes little sense and pretending to be someone is technically a crime in some form. 

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    • Oh, dear lord. Must we truly start a flame war about this?

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Pink Slim wrote:
      he didn't become a god because he 'deserved it' he became a god because, well because he tricked the universe into believing he and lorkhan were the same being.

      he tricked his way into godhood, by claiming the role of the trickster god.

      By tricking your way claiming you and lorkhan were the same doesn't mean he should have become a god. Therefor the current gods had no right in doing so. You stated whether he deserved it is irrelevant however that can't be possible; if he deserved it then the gods made it so. If he didn't deserved it and was tricking others into believing he and lorkhan was the same then clearly the gods wouldn't have made him a god. 

      In other words what i'm saying is clearly your incorrect that he tricked others into believing this. The gods must have felt he is a tremendous help in the world and he fit a role that was missing amongst the other gods. Thus he became a god. I see no real reason why they would make someone a god who was tricking people into believing he was someone else. That's like saying I'm truly god irl and I should ascend to being a god when I die. It makes little sense and pretending to be someone is technically a crime in some form. 

      you don't seem to understand the concept of manteling, he didn't convince anyone that he was lorkhan, what he convinced was the godhead, the universe itself, he tricked existance, no god, man or mer could make talos a god, this is a power far beyond the divines, they are but ants to the godhead.

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    • What you just described is the same thing I just said: tricked people into thinking he was lorkhan. Whether this was man, mer or the universe itself it's still tricking someone or something into believing your someone else. Also i disagree with your second part he obviously became a divine, a god from someone. Thus the Nine Divines and talos is one of them. Someone made talos, a man, and rose him up to godhood like arkay and the rest for some apparent reason. My comment was saying he must have deserved it otherwise it wouldn't have happened. He obviously filled a necessary roll to rise a man to divine/god that they were lacking previously. 

      Only thing i'm saying here

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    • this thread has gone off topic and been off topic for a while. have no fear, ill attempt to bring it back. Do i think the thalmor are justified in their actions? Absolutely, to an extent. i believe that the thalmor are justified because; they wish to return mer lands back to the mer, man sits on a mer throne, men incorperated a new a god born with the blood of man into their pantheon of ancestors, not to mention said "god" used a mer construct to win his battles for him, and without would have surely failed. Were the thalmor justified in going to war? yeah i can agree with that, when Tiber used the Numidium to win his war, it did a bit of a blow to altmer pride, which it kind of needed, but the altmer never forgot it, so i guess the great war was them proving just how powerful they are and to get revenge, they are a force to be reckoned with, and are still thirsty for more man blood, which is why theyre rooting for the stormcloacks on the sidelines so they can go in and whipe skyrim clean. if it were not for the white gold concordat, i dont think there would have been much of a skyrim left to play in. Do i completely agree with the thalmor and their methods, no, im just putting in their perspective, 

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    • That would be fine IF the thalmor were a threat. In terms of combat ability, they're weak, and pretty capable mages but the thing that the thalmor did was use fear and bluffing titus mede II to a peace treaty that benefitted the thalmor than anything. In fact the thalmor isn't rooting for the stormcloaks to win the war, they're rooting for both imperials and stormcloaks to continue an endless war so they can re-strenthen themselves and take them out at their weakest. The imperials or stormcloaks winning the civil is actually something they do not want. Hell the worst possible scenario is stormcloaks and imperials signing a permanent peace-treaty and joining forces and funds to kick the thalmor butts. 

      The AD are quite weak but they've only managed through manipulation+cloak and dagger tactics to get themselves where they are. I wouldn't really say the thalmor are right in what they're doing per se. Purging the entire human race so you can claim surpremacy not to mention talk in Arrogant/Hollier Than Thou almost condenscending way to anyone who isn't a thalmor is very extreme and douchey(sorry in advance, couldn't find the right word to use here) attutude even when you're an high elf they still act this way. 

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    • Okay if talos isn't a divine riddle me this why is he not able to be found in sovngarde?!

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    • Maybe not all people go to Sovngarde?

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Maybe not all people go to Sovngarde?

      Okay tell we where else could he have gone? give me evidence.

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    • Ulfic is a danm racsit n so are most Nords but this is a perfect example of war tht is at its base element stupid r ban worship to a god tht doesnt mess with ur gods its not like thy said "Talaos the savior of mankind become a God killing all Elven Gods tht thought thy had earned a place in the Heavens"

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    • oh god the spelling.

      and the stereotyping and ignorance, but mostly the spelling.

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    • What if Talos is not a good "divine"? Thatwould be a good element in an upcoming game. How do we know Talos/Tiber Septim wasn't who he was thought out to be?

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    • CzechMate wrote:
      What if Talos is not a good "divine"? Thatwould be a good element in an upcoming game. How do we know Talos/Tiber Septim wasn't who he was thought out to be?

      how about nnnooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo....( breath) ooooooooooooooooooooo

      because if that would be so my life would be a lie

      -thatdudewiththegun

      p.s dont take it bad just a joke even if i dont queit aggree with you

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    • Sheogorath Daedric Prince of Madness wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Maybe not all people go to Sovngarde?
      Okay tell we where else could he have gone? give me evidence.

      I don't know specifically but i heard that not all people go to sovngarde. I'm not exactly sure myself i'm not very knowledgeable of TES lore. :P

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    • maybe he was sent to some plane of oblivion, i dont know how he obtained control of the numidium and had the knowledge of how to use it, but maybe he made a deal with a deadra, maybe mehrunes dagon gave him the key and knowledge so he could cause destruction, maybe mephala gave it to him, or maybe hermaeus mora gave it to him, and then when he died they collected his soul. after all a weapon that powerful would have to come with a price.

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    • ... he used the mantella, which was created by tapping into the power of Shezzarines, and he himself was a shezzarine, so with all that shezzarine power he was able to mimic Shor, which powers the numidium, and he probably got this information from The Tribunal.

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    • i've never heard of the shezzarine or tiber being one. what are they?

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    • they're... easiest way to put it is that they're a tiny little part of Shor, they are his avatars and they are very powerful people.

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    • so you're saying they're like servants of shor?

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    • i've never heard of the shezzarine or tiber being one. what are they?

      A Shezarrine is an avatar that relates to any aspect of Lorkhan (not just Shor). Think Nerevarine, but instead of an embodiment of Nerevar, it is Lorkhan.

      so with all that shezzarine power he was able to mimic Shor

      Tiber copied the Enantiomorph to become a god. He did not just take in Lorkhan's power, if that were the case the Tribunal would have mantled Lorkhan.

      and he probably got this information from The Tribunal.

      The Tribunal aparently did not know how to activate Numidium, as it was supposedly Zurin Arctus who made both the mantella, Tiber Septim's totem, and figured out Lorkhan's soul was needed to power it.

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    • @Dovahsebrom so what exactly would that make tiber septim? would he really be a god or someone who just mimic being one? And if so, wouldn't that make what the aldmeri dominion are doing pretty accurate that he's no god just someone who pretended to be one as pink slim was referencing previously in a discussion i joined in?

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      @Dovahsebrom so what exactly would that make tiber septim? would he really be a god or someone who just mimic being one? And if so, wouldn't that make what the aldmeri dominion are doing pretty accurate that he's no god just someone who pretended to be one as pink slim was referencing previously in a discussion i joined in?

      Depends on what your definition of a god is.

      "Again you ask, am I a god?

      I am Sotha Sil. I am the Mage. I am the Clockmaker."

      - Sotha Sil's Last Words


      Tiber Septim achieved CHIM, In my opinion this is enough to be considered a god.

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    • I see, would have been cooler if the actual divines made him a god 

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    • Screw you all... HAIL SITHIS, on a serious note The Thalmor take a Stalinistic approach in revising history and purging people(s) that refute them, i.e. their own people and allies, the have a NAZI/fascist and racial pride and are convinced that they are right because of their birthright. I say the next game we should kick their ass and libertate some qt 3.14 elves

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    • i seriously don't understand why they would kill their own race, elves, if their main concern is purging man. It's completely ridiculous

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    • 71.61.178.23 wrote:
      ^^^Truth. Truth. Truth. Truth. TRUTH. The Thalmor have their heads perpetually up their fecking arses. :)

      I AGREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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    • This isn't a topic for conversation, as Oblivion ( As I'm sure this was already said in this thread ) proved Talos became a Divine. This topic also gets exceedingly boring just because The Thalmor aren't really reasonable.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      I see, would have been cooler if the actual divines made him a god 

      I don't think they can do that. He probably wouldn't be nearly as powerful either.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      I see, would have been cooler if the actual divines made him a god 
      I don't think they can do that. He probably wouldn't be nearly as powerful either.

      Does he need to be really powerful? The point I was saying was so that he would be a god and the thalmor would have had no reason to start this civil war bull they're doing atm. I mean it's possible they could find other reasons to start this but i'm quite certain the Talos/tiber septim being treated as a god really sparked this AD group thing

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      I see, would have been cooler if the actual divines made him a god 
      I don't think they can do that. He probably wouldn't be nearly as powerful either.
      Does he need to be really powerful? The point I was saying was so that he would be a god and the thalmor would have had no reason to start this civil war bull they're doing atm. I mean it's possible they could find other reasons to start this but i'm quite certain the Talos/tiber septim being treated as a god really sparked this AD group thing

      "To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

      To achieve this goal, we must:

      1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

      2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

      3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

      - MK

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    • I'm aware of that quote but it's merely jibberish as far i'm concerned. The Talos / Tiber septim worshipping is their main draw in skyrim. I've seen no actual evidence of them actually killing random men or women unless they're worshipping talos. Sure their end game might be to kill all of them and the banning of talos is just the prerequisite to this ultimate scheme but surely if talos was indeed a true god, that was risen by the other gods, the thalmor would not have any real reason to do any of this. Thalmor claim he's no god just a mere mortal being praised as one, which judging from various comments is indeed the case as he didn't actual become a god with the help of the other gods, merely mimick lorkhan through copying Enantiomorph. Sure he's more powerful this way but it doesn't make him a god. Had what i'm saying happened, which a god could do whatever he likes in most cases, thalmor would have accepted that talos was indeed a true god. 

      I also think them killing other elves because they disagree with their methods or reasonings is completely asinine seeing how they're not there enemies; Unless they're talos worshippers. 

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    • I'm aware of that quote but it's merely jibberish as far i'm concerned. It isn't gibberish at all. It specifically states the steps the Thalmor believe can be followed to "regain" immortality. The first step being the removal of Talos worship to try and weaken Talos to the point of death.

      if talos was indeed a true god, that was risen by the other gods, the thalmor would not have any real reason to do any of this.

      According to the Thalmor's "excuses" for Talos not being a god, I would have to diasgree with you.

      Plus just about nobody actually knows the way Talos became a god. Most believers think that he was, as you said, "risen by the gods".

      Thalmor claim he's no god just a mere mortal being praised as one, which judging from various comments is indeed the case as he didn't actual become a god with the help of the other gods,

      I don't understand how that doesn't makes him a god. He is worshipped, he is a god. Mortals are the ones who decide who is and who isn't a god. You don't need to have some connection or approval by the Aedra as they are just beings the same as mortals.

      merely mimick lorkhan through copying Enantiomorph

      Once again, no Thalmor agent would actually know this.

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    • While they might not specifically know this, which is likely about alot of things, they do know he's no god. And as I said, judging by various people he's no legit god.

      Just someone who mimicked one copying Enantiomorph. That doesn't make you a god, unless the regular gods(or aedra or whatever) rose him up and was specified in the lore which the thalmor would have access to, we have to suggest he's not a god. Just because people worship as one doesn't make him a god. All it does is gives you abilities similar to Lorkhan and people think he's a god when that isn't the case

      So Thalmor are indeed correct that he's no god and merely human. I mean someone brought up the fact Arkay was also a man risen to godhood before Zenimax bought Bethesda but as usual nothing from then seems to be canon or continual over wise Thalmor would be trying to remove Arkay worship too. 

      Also the reason why i said it was jibberish what MK said is because how it's written is trying to sound more philosphical and profound which to me makes it difficult to grasp what he's really trying to say. Even so i get the basic jist of their plan to eradicate man and Talos worshipping the latter being the first thing needed as they haven't killed random men or women yet just people who worship talos. 

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    • Stealthblade, do you know how godhood works in TES? because Talos is a God, he's not an Aedra, nor an Et'ada, but he is a god. you don't need to be risen into godhood by the other aedra, especially when they don't have the power to do so.

      He is a god, his power still influences the world, moreso than even the other Divines.

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    • You just said previously he mimicked shor by tapping into the power of Shezzarines since he had alot of powers from it. I still wouldn't call him a god at that point in my honest opinion. it would have made more sense if he became a god from the other gods, i can't possibly see why that would be impossible if they can influence the world in other ways. That sounds like childs play for them. 

      Regardless with that being said: why isn't the thalmor going after arkay worshipers when he essentially became a god in a similar fashion? Or are the thalmor just picking and choosing who to attack for the sake of their immortality BS. 

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    • I said that by manteling Shor he became a god, yes he mimiced Shor, but he mimiced him so well that the world could no longer tell them apart, he essentially became the new Shor.

      the Aedra are bound to the world of mortals and can influence it, but they have no real power, it took all the power Akatosh had to possess Martin to fend off Dagon. besides that one event the Aedra haven't actively done much. no matter how strong the Aedra are, even the eight of them combined would not be able to make a mortal into an Aedra, that would be far beyond them.

      Talos is a god, not an Aedra, but a Divine indeed.

      The Arkay was a human theory isn't true. and if it actually was true the thalmor wouldn't be after him because Arkay has nothing to do with holding Mundus in Balance, like Talos does now that he has taken the place of Shor.

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    • That doesn't make you a god, unless the regular gods(or aedra or whatever) rose him up

      I think you are mixing up being "a god" and being one of the "gods that are bound to mundus"

      A god is determined by the worshipper, a being does not need to be risen by the divines to be a god, just extremely powerful and worshipped. Sotha Sil,  Talos, Reman, these men are all gods; claiming that is not so, is like saying the Eight Divines aren't gods either.

      Also the reason why i said it was jibberish what MK said is because how it's written is trying to sound more philosphical

      Classic Kirkbride

      i can't possibly see why that would be impossible if they can influence the world in other ways. That sounds like childs play for them.

      Umm.. they really can't, the Eight have severely limited power in regards to Nirn.

      Or are the thalmor just picking and choosing who to attack for the sake of their immortality BS.

      Right on the dot.

      I said that by manteling Shor he became a god, yes he mimiced Shor, but he mimiced him so well that the world could no longer tell them apart,

      "walk like them until they must walk like you"

      Talos has become Lorkhan to the point where one wonders whether or not Lorkhan is the copy.

      (By the way, Talos mantled Lorkhan, not Shor)

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    • Actually it doesn't matter. The Thalmor are just using it as part of their plan to weaken the Empire so they can take over the world. OF COURSE!

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:

      I said that by manteling Shor he became a god, yes he mimiced Shor, but he mimiced him so well that the world could no longer tell them apart,

      "walk like them until they must walk like you"

      Talos has become Lorkhan to the point where one wonders whether or not Lorkhan is the copy.

      (By the way, Talos mantled Lorkhan, not Shor)

      Shor and Lorkhan are both aspects of the same god, one is the nordic, the other is aldmeri, there's also Shezzar, who is Cyrodiilic.

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    • Look, the Thalmor are straight jerkfaces. I don't care whether or not Talos ascended to Aetherius. The Thalmor banning of his worship wasn't about that at all. It was about Tiber Septim (mortal Talos) and his conquering of the Second Aldmeri Dominion. The elves are still hating on him, which is why they are hating on the Empire he founded.

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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      I said that by manteling Shor he became a god, yes he mimiced Shor, but he mimiced him so well that the world could no longer tell them apart,

      "walk like them until they must walk like you"

      Talos has become Lorkhan to the point where one wonders whether or not Lorkhan is the copy.

      (By the way, Talos mantled Lorkhan, not Shor)

      Shor and Lorkhan are both aspects of the same god, one is the nordic, the other is aldmeri, there's also Shezzar, who is Cyrodiilic.

      But they aren't the same god. Lorkhan is the true god, Shor and Shezarr are his aspects. They have the same relation as Alduin to Akatosh

      "Shor found the alcove at the core of the world and spoke to his dead father.'"

      -Shor son of Shor

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    • does it really matter which aspect I said? in the end they're kind of the same being.

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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      does it really matter which aspect I said? in the end they're kind of the same being.


      They are the same but not the same. You cannot say that Talos mantled Shor because he did not mantle Shor, he mantled Lorkhan. Shor is still Shor, Lorkhan is still Lorkhan, Talos is still Talos but he is also now identical to Lorkhan; this does not make Shor an aspect of Talos, he is still part of Lorkhan.

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    • I know, but Shor is easier to remember, also faster to type.

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    • The Thalmor aren't morally right in their attempts to stop the worship of Talos, though I can see where they are coming from in their invasion. The entireity of the continent used to belong to the Elves, and they want it back. It's their right to fight for it. I hate them though.

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    • imo i wish the thalmor would be eradicated and the snow elves to make a magical return :D

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    • The Snow Elves could turn on the Nords and try to wipe them out. 

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:
      The Snow Elves could turn on the Nords and try to wipe them out. 

      That wouldn't make them any better than Nords.

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    • My point is what would stop the Snow Elves from becoming the new Thalmor if they returned. The Snow Elves must hate the Nords for committing genocide on thier people. 

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:
      My point is what would stop the Snow Elves from becoming the new Thalmor if they returned. The Snow Elves must hate the Nords for committing genocide on thier people. 

      I couldn't be too sure. When looking at Paladin Gelebor, the Snow Elves seem like a very peaceful people. But then there is the Night of Tears, which we still really don't know much about.

      I feel like the Falmer really aren't people who believe heavily in revenge, except Vyrthur who seems a bit too butt-hurt.

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    • Are the Falmer still considered a people at this point? They've been described more as mindless beasts than anything. GIANTS seem to be more intelligent than them.

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    • They're wrong and they have been always been wrong so no

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    • OrcishBerserker wrote:
      Are the Falmer still considered a people at this point? They've been described more as mindless beasts than anything. GIANTS seem to be more intelligent than them.


      By Falmer I ment the true Falmer, not the blind smeagols that live underground.

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    • Can we please get back on topic. I know I mentioned the Falmer before but I was mearly saying that they could take up the same militant stance as the Thalmor. If you want to debate who is more intelligent you can debate on the new intelligence thread.

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    • The Empire agreed to ban the worship of Talos. Does that not make them "right"?

      Also, if Talos is be "a divine", does he also become an Aedroth?

      Is it: Divine => Aedroth, Aedroth => Divine, or Divine = Adreoth?

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    • No, the Thalmor are not correct. There's proof in Oblivion that Talos is a divine. 

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    • Swolp wrote:
      The Empire agreed to ban the worship of Talos. Does that not make them "right"?

      Also, if Talos is be "a divine", does he also become an Aedroth?

      Is it: Divine => Aedroth, Aedroth => Divine, or Divine = Adreoth?

      No, Divine (as in the Nine Divines) is in away a title. Mortals decide the pantheons they worship and the "Divines" are the individual beings within the Nine Divines Pantheon.

      An Aedra is a being that took part in the creation of Mundus, which most likely isn't Talos... most likely...

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      The Empire agreed to ban the worship of Talos. Does that not make them "right"?

      Also, if Talos is be "a divine", does he also become an Aedroth?

      Is it: Divine => Aedroth, Aedroth => Divine, or Divine = Adreoth?

      No, Divine (as in the Nine Divines) is in away a title. Mortals decide the pantheons they worship and the "Divines" are the individual beings within the Nine Divines Pantheon.

      An Aedra is a being that took part in the creation of Mundus, which most likely isn't Talos... most likely...

      Thank you. I was just wondering since I stumbled upon this, which lists Talos for some reason.

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    • Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)

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    • Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)

      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.

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    • Swolp wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)
      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.

      Aren't the Thalmor just a group of thalmor justiciars? Or just a group within the dominion?

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    • Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)
      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.
      Aren't the Thalmor just a group of thalmor justiciars? Or just a group within the dominion?

      Not even joking here. The Thalmor are very similar to nazis.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)
      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.
      Aren't the Thalmor just a group of thalmor justiciars? Or just a group within the dominion?
      Not even joking here. The Thalmor are very similar to nazis.

      Soo, the Thalmor and justiciars are both Nazis and Crusaders?

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    • Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)
      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.
      Aren't the Thalmor just a group of thalmor justiciars? Or just a group within the dominion?
      Not even joking here. The Thalmor are very similar to nazis.
      Soo, the Thalmor and justiciars are both Nazis and Crusaders?

      I feel like the justiciars relate more to the Gestapo than Crusaders.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)
      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.
      Aren't the Thalmor just a group of thalmor justiciars? Or just a group within the dominion?
      Not even joking here. The Thalmor are very similar to nazis.
      Soo, the Thalmor and justiciars are both Nazis and Crusaders?
      I feel like the justiciars relate more to the Gestapo than Crusaders.

      You really are convinced about the whole nazi thing, heh. However, now we're talking religion, and not idelogy, but I can see your point. Do you think Thalmor Soldiers would fit better in my parable?

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    • Swolp wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)
      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.
      Aren't the Thalmor just a group of thalmor justiciars? Or just a group within the dominion?
      Not even joking here. The Thalmor are very similar to nazis.
      Soo, the Thalmor and justiciars are both Nazis and Crusaders?
      I feel like the justiciars relate more to the Gestapo than Crusaders.
      You really are convinced about the whole nazi thing, heh.

      Well it isn't like I'm basing Thalmor relation to Nazis just because I think they're bad guys. There is obvious relations between the Thalmor and the Nazis.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)
      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.
      Aren't the Thalmor just a group of thalmor justiciars? Or just a group within the dominion?
      Not even joking here. The Thalmor are very similar to nazis.
      Soo, the Thalmor and justiciars are both Nazis and Crusaders?
      I feel like the justiciars relate more to the Gestapo than Crusaders.
      You really are convinced about the whole nazi thing, heh.
      Well it isn't like I'm basing Thalmor relation to Nazis just because I think they're bad guys. There is obvious relations between the Thalmor and the Nazis.

      Then again, the Empire DID agree to ban Talos from being worshipped. Since many holds (speaking only of skyrim right now) don't seem to care about that [law], the Thalmor are trying to deal with it themselves. Isn't that just also similar to the Dawnguard? Actively hunting those who they think needs to be killed, due to breaking the law (harming/killing people in this case).

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    • Swolp wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      Took a long time but I finally figured it out... Thalmor are like Crusaders :p (you all know this already :p)
      Not quite. The Thalmor would be more like a religious movement if you want to look at it like that, while the Thalmor Justiciars are like the crusaders.
      Aren't the Thalmor just a group of thalmor justiciars? Or just a group within the dominion?
      Not even joking here. The Thalmor are very similar to nazis.
      Soo, the Thalmor and justiciars are both Nazis and Crusaders?
      I feel like the justiciars relate more to the Gestapo than Crusaders.
      You really are convinced about the whole nazi thing, heh.
      Well it isn't like I'm basing Thalmor relation to Nazis just because I think they're bad guys. There is obvious relations between the Thalmor and the Nazis.
      Then again, the Empire DID agree to ban Talos from being worshipped. Since many holds (speaking only of skyrim right now) don't seem to care about that [law], the Thalmor are trying to deal with it themselves. Isn't that just also similar to the Dawnguard? Actively hunting those who they think needs to be killed, due to breaking the law (harming/killing people in this case).

      Murdering civilians that don't even live in your own nation because of their beliefs is not very similar to the Dawnguard. The Aldmeri Dominion is enforcing law over another nation of equal stature which is absolutely preposterous. The White-Gold Concordat is a joke and should be treated as such, why the emperor would ever agree to such terms is beyond me.

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    • The emperor is dead now anyway, so karma was given to titus mede II. In all honesty though I think the thalmor are a bit worse than what dawnguard are doing(though there reasoning is understandable), they're main objective is to kill the world of men(women included) so they can hope to become immortal again. Very ridiculous beliefs which in order to do that they must force everyone on nirn to forget and stop worshipping Talos/Tiber Septim. They're a radical group that should be stopped imo. 

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      • previous comments*
      Murdering civilians that don't even live in your own nation because of their beliefs is not very similar to the Dawnguard. The Aldmeri Dominion is enforcing law over another nation of equal stature which is absolutely preposterous. The White-Gold Concordat is a joke and should be treated as such, why the emperor would ever agree to such terms is beyond me.

      A law is still a law, opinions don't matter. The Thalmor HAS to enforce it, since most people in Skyrim tend to ignore this law. Had they not been there, chances are the law would not be followed at all, and therefore the probability of another war starting is fairly high. 


      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      The emperor is dead now anyway, so karma was given to titus mede II. In all honesty though I think the thalmor are a bit worse than what dawnguard are doing(though there reasoning is understandable), they're main objective is to kill the world of men(women included) so they can hope to become immortal again. Very ridiculous beliefs which in order to do that they must force everyone on nirn to forget and stop worshipping Talos/Tiber Septim. They're a radical group that should be stopped imo. 

      Very ridiculous indeed, but there's always two sides of the story. That is the version the opposers are giving you. All I'm saying is: According to law, worhipping Talos is forbidden, and the Thalmor only wants the Empire to fulfill their share of the bargain.

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    • a law that was made by tricking tidus into signing a treaty that benefitted thalmor? I hardly find that a justified reason to go into skyrim, morrowind,  hammer to spread there BS and force people who to worship or not? They have no right to do so. you want to say only tamriel? fine but not spreading your beliefs onto others. 

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      a law that was made by tricking tidus into signing a treaty that benefitted thalmor? I hardly find that a justified reason to go into skyrim, morrowind,  hammer to spread there BS and force people who to worship or not? They have no right to do so. you want to say only tamriel? fine but not spreading your beliefs onto others. 

      Tricked? In what way was he tricked into signing the peace treaty? And it benefitted both parts, the Empire surely would have lost the war, had it continued, so of course they had to give something in return. The banishing of Talos' worship was that something. Even though I very much despise the Thalmor, and most high elves due to their superior view of themselves, I still cannot say that their way is wrong. They are doing what they believe, just as I am when I am slaying ever one of them bastards I encounter.

      Could you clearify what you mean with "you want to say only tamriel? fine but not spreading your beliefs onto others."?

      This is it for today. Good night!

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    • A law is still a law, opinions don't matter. The Thalmor HAS to enforce it, since most people in Skyrim tend to ignore this law. Had they not been there, chances are the law would not be followed at all, and therefore the probability of another war starting is fairly high.

      Please tell me why it has to be the Thalmor that enforce the law. The White-Gold Concordat simply outlaws the worship of Talos, it does not say that the Thalmor are to enforce it.

      The Thalmor are hunting down people that aren't even under their jurisdiction, their so called "embassies" are literally being used to execute and torture Talos worshippers; the Thalmor have know right to be a police force in a land they don't even own, they are abusing power and implementing dominion into the empire.

      Such actions are obvious grounds for war.

      Very ridiculous indeed, but there's always two sides of the story. That is the version the opposers are giving you. All I'm saying is: According to law, worhipping Talos is forbidden, and the Thalmor only wants the Empire to fulfill their share of the bargain.

      The version the opposers are giving is 100% true. I honestly doubt most Thalmor even know about their true endgame.

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    • Walls of text... Are you guys psijiicthieves in disguise?

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    • Tiber Septim did become a Divine for uniting the Empire, in doing so, he became a God, as Zad Enn said, the Thalmor dont like the Humans worshipping General Talos as a god because he had been a HUMAN. Had he been a HIGH ELF or WOOD ELF or any Elven race, they Thalmor wouldn't have cared. But because he was Human before ascending to Godhood, the Thalmor dont want him worshipped. so yes the Thalmor is wrong in my opinion, on the Talos banning. Only reason I hate them.

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    • Swolp wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      a law that was made by tricking tidus into signing a treaty that benefitted thalmor? I hardly find that a justified reason to go into skyrim, morrowind,  hammer to spread there BS and force people who to worship or not? They have no right to do so. you want to say only tamriel? fine but not spreading your beliefs onto others. 
      Tricked? In what way was he tricked into signing the peace treaty? And it benefitted both parts, the Empire surely would have lost the war, had it continued, so of course they had to give something in return. The banishing of Talos' worship was that something. Even though I very much despise the Thalmor, and most high elves due to their superior view of themselves, I still cannot say that their way is wrong. They are doing what they believe, just as I am when I am slaying ever one of them bastards I encounter.

      Could you clearify what you mean with "you want to say only tamriel? fine but not spreading your beliefs onto others."?

      This is it for today. Good night!

      First off the thalmor used fear and bluffing to get titus mede II to sign a peace that did not benefit the empire, it only benefitted the thalmor. There's also no possible reason to suggest the thalmor would have beaten the empire during the great war. Titus agreed to a crappy treaty that other people seem to think it was necessary like Jarl Balgruuf but it's been suggested that the thalmor are not that strong. Hammerfell drove the invasion of the thalmor and prevented them from taking it over which suggest that the titus just submitted defeat without actually going down in a fight which is what he should have done. He even ignored the special counsel of the blades to which led to there complete defeat and because of this, the Penitus Occulatus now are the special guards of the king where as there's literally only 2-3 blades remaining.  This is probably the main reason why Amaund Motierre wanted the assassination of the king in the darkbrotherhood questline. 

      Also to what i meant by tamriel, the thalmor treaty was to outlaw the worship of talos BUT that shouldn't have extended past tamriel. Which means they have no right or jurisdiction to go to hammerfell, skyrim...etc and demand people to stop worshiping talos. It's complete lunacy that they think they can do this stuff, and like Dovahsebrom stated there's nothing in the treaty that suggest they are supposed enforce this on everyone.

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    • Ketick1998 wrote:
      Tiber Septim did become a Divine for uniting the Empire, in doing so, he became a God, as Zad Enn said, the Thalmor dont like the Humans worshipping General Talos as a god because he had been a HUMAN. Had he been a HIGH ELF or WOOD ELF or any Elven race, they Thalmor wouldn't have cared. But because he was Human before ascending to Godhood, the Thalmor dont want him worshipped. so yes the Thalmor is wrong in my opinion, on the Talos banning. Only reason I hate them.


      Still not necessarily true. We've been over this many times.

      Here is the true Thalmor endgame.

      "To kill Man is to reach Heaven, from where we came before the Doom Drum's iniquity. When we accomplish this, we can escape the mockery and long shame of the Material Prison.

      To achieve this goal, we must:

      1) Erase the Upstart Talos from the mythic. His presence fortifies the Wheel of the Convention, and binds our souls to this plane.

      2) Remove Man not just from the world, but from the Pattern of Possibility, so that the very idea of them can be forgotten and thereby never again repeated.

      3) With Talos and the Sons of Talos removed, the Dragon will become ours to unbind. The world of mortals will be over. The Dragon will uncoil his hold on the stagnancy of linear time and move as Free Serpent again, moving through the Aether without measure or burden, spilling time along the innumerable roads we once travelled. And with that we will regain the mantle of the imperishable spirit."

      - MK

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    • I don't believe he really deserves his divinity, but that doesn't give the Thalmor the right to shove their beliefs in the faces of others. 

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    • Plain and simple, the Thalmor are wrong. They're racial supremacists who want to stamp out humanity. Therefore, they're wrong.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Swolp wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      a law that was made by tricking tidus into signing a treaty that benefitted thalmor? I hardly find that a justified reason to go into skyrim, morrowind,  hammer to spread there BS and force people who to worship or not? They have no right to do so. you want to say only tamriel? fine but not spreading your beliefs onto others. 
      Tricked? In what way was he tricked into signing the peace treaty? And it benefitted both parts, the Empire surely would have lost the war, had it continued, so of course they had to give something in return. The banishing of Talos' worship was that something. Even though I very much despise the Thalmor, and most high elves due to their superior view of themselves, I still cannot say that their way is wrong. They are doing what they believe, just as I am when I am slaying ever one of them bastards I encounter.

      Could you clearify what you mean with "you want to say only tamriel? fine but not spreading your beliefs onto others."?

      This is it for today. Good night!

      First off the thalmor used fear and bluffing to get titus mede II to sign a peace that did not benefit the empire, it only benefitted the thalmor. There's also no possible reason to suggest the thalmor would have beaten the empire during the great war. Titus agreed to a crappy treaty that other people seem to think it was necessary like Jarl Balgruuf but it's been suggested that the thalmor are not that strong. Hammerfell drove the invasion of the thalmor and prevented them from taking it over which suggest that the titus just submitted defeat without actually going down in a fight which is what he should have done. He even ignored the special counsel of the blades to which led to there complete defeat and because of this, the Penitus Occulatus now are the special guards of the king where as there's literally only 2-3 blades remaining.  This is probably the main reason why Amaund Motierre wanted the assassination of the king in the darkbrotherhood questline. 

      Also to what i meant by tamriel, the thalmor treaty was to outlaw the worship of talos BUT that shouldn't have extended past tamriel. Which means they have no right or jurisdiction to go to hammerfell, skyrim...etc and demand people to stop worshiping talos. It's complete lunacy that they think they can do this stuff, and like Dovahsebrom stated there's nothing in the treaty that suggest they are supposed enforce this on everyone.

      You see the problem is that even if the White Concorat Treaty was not neccessary for the survival of the Empire(which I am inclined to believe it is), the Empire needs as many soldiers as possible to defeat the Thalmor, especially since the Thalmor came out of that fustercluck as the clear winners. If the provinces keep seceding(Argonia and Morrowind are already seperated, Elsweyr is trying to seperate, and if Skyrim seceds, High Rock will be isolated from the rest of the Empire) the Aldemri Dominion will end up fighting only Cyrodiil, possibly Skyrim as well. While Skyrim seceding does not really mean there will be no Nord soldiers fighting in the 2nd Great War, it does mean they won't be helping keep the other provinces in the Empire, specifically High Rock. Argonia and Morrowind clearly only care about fighting each other, if Elsweyr secedes they will be far more concerned with rebuking any Imperial influence and possibly starting a war with Argonia, and High Rock may secede if it feels there is no benefit to joining the Empire. Of all the factions that could secede, Skyrim is the only one likely to join Cyrodiil against the Thalmor, with possible help from Hammerfell. High Rock, Morrowind, Elseweyr, and Argonia would all be too concened with their own affairs. This is of course, assuming Skyrim helps Cyrodiil in a united effort against the Thalmor, which may not happen, and in that case, everything hits the fan and there is no way a real resistence will form against the Thalmor.


      Ultimately, I sympathesize with the Nords desire for freedom of religion and independence, but it is because of their suffering under the Thalmor that should make them know better, the Thalmor are the real threat, and a united front against them is what is the mos tlikely to prevent the genocide of men and beastfolk.

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    • I'll ask you and the other guy something: why is it that the empire or specifically Titus Mede II caved in on a treaty that doesn't benefit them? You say it's to need as many soldiers as possible but the problem is even if it does help the empire get more warriors and regain strength so does the aldmeri dominion/thalmor. So in essence it did absolutely nothing for the empire it was a bluffing by the thalmor + fear of prolonged war that made titus caved in but in reality thalmor are push overs. Look at Hammerfell, they pushed out the thalmor and BEAT them. If Hammerfell can kick out the thalmor so easily then surely the empire with all there might could have or rather should have too. But as usual the fear factor and the whole bluffing that the thalmor are great at doing convinced the WGC to be signed. It didn't benefit the empire no matter what you may want to believe, which tbh I used to think that way too until I was told otherwise. All in all this just made the empire look weak and after the great war the imperials are nothing compared like they used to be 200 years ago during oblivion. They were feared and control all of tamriel, now their power and numbers are a far cry all because of the thalmor influenced to remove the worshiping of talos, the one who conquered tamriel and build the laws( I think) around it. This is why Ulfric Stormcloak attacked the High King of skyrim in a fair duel, beat him and caused Tullius to try to kill him and ultimately started the civil war, alduin appearing, dragonborn appearing and amongst all the chaos who's laughing and enjoying themselves? Yep Thalmor. They have both the SC and Imperials at the palm of their hands enjoying the carnage and slaughting of both sides hoping for both to either kill themselves or be weakned enough so AD strength is strong enough to kill both factions. I mean SC and Imperials are not thriving on money or resources. Both are handicapped. A clear winner in the civil war or a peace treaty is something the thalmor cannot have, because they'll realize both sides will be stronger to deal with the thalmor and they're not at battle ready yet. Also they realize the dragonborn is no ally and always attack him on sight during the course of the main questline, especially if they're helping either side. Thalmor uses cloak and dagger tactics to win battles and it's seem to be winning so far. But this civil war is a must and part of their tactics. 

      Anyway i don't agree with the thalmor killing every man and woman in the world just so they can return to immortality status or whatever bull they want to spew out of their mouths. 

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    • The White-Gold Concordat was certainly not necessary.

      The tide of the war had changed, the entire Aldmeri Army within Cyrodiil had been driven back. This is not a time where you give into the demands of your enemy.

      The White-Gold Concordat was not a white-peace it was a surrender, they gave into the demands the Thalmor had intially created at the beginning of the war. If the empire was just going to surrender anywase why even lead a counter attack.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:

      Also to what i meant by tamriel, the thalmor treaty was to outlaw the worship of talos BUT that shouldn't have extended past tamriel. Which means they have no right or jurisdiction to go to hammerfell, skyrim...etc and demand people to stop worshiping talos. It's complete lunacy that they think they can do this stuff, and like Dovahsebrom stated there's nothing in the treaty that suggest they are supposed enforce this on everyone.

      I think I know where the problem is now. Tamriel is the continent where Skyrim, Black Marsh etc. are located. And I assume you meant the Summerset Isels, correct?


      About the White-Gold Concordat:

      Titus Mede II did make a good decision, in my opinion. I doubt he would have agreed to such a thing, if it not was of utmost necessity. Humans reproduce MUCH faster than Elves, and apparantly he deemed the unfavorable terms to the peace necessary. In a generation or two, even if Skyrim has declared independance, they might would've had the upper hand, since like #217 said; "While Skyrim seceding does not really mean there will be no Nord soldiers fighting in the 2nd Great War".

      The Empire also never beat the Aldmeri Dominion. Had the Empire beaten them, the situation would not had been like this.


      Dovahsebrom wrote:

      The White-Gold Concordat was not a white-peace it was a surrender, they gave into the demands the Thalmor had intially created at the beginning of the war. If the empire was just going to surrender anywase why even lead a counter attack.

      Telling the outcome of a war between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire before it even starts is difficult, considering both factions were quite equal in power . They gave it a shot, but couldn't withstand the invasion. The Empire still didn't know how many troops the AD had left on the Summerset Isles, which also might be a factor to the peace treaty.

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    • Swolp wrote:

      Telling the outcome of a war between the Aldmeri Dominion and the Empire before it even starts is difficult, considering both factions were quite equal in power . They gave it a shot, but couldn't withstand the invasion. The Empire still didn't know how many troops the AD had left on the Summerset Isles, which also might be a factor to the peace treaty.

      The Aldmeri Dominion did not have enough troops to carry on the war, Hammerfell proves this.

      The empire shouldn't have made the "peace treaty" with the Dominion if they had just turned the tide of the war, it is simply something you do not do.

      You only surrender when you know you are defeated.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote: You only surrender when you know you are defeated.

      Why are you people so sure they knew the Dominion was weak at the time? Most of the imperial logistics must have been destroyed, the informants killed, the messengers captured. The Dominion was in their capital! They couldn't know crap. I would do the same thing in this kind of situation.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:

      You only surrender when you know you are defeated.

      This proves my point, no?

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    • Sky Above,Voice Within wrote:

      Dovahsebrom wrote: You only surrender when you know you are defeated.

      Why are you people so sure they knew the Dominion was weak at the time? Most of the imperial logistics must have been destroyed, the informants killed, the messengers captured. The Dominion was in their capital! They couldn't know crap. I would do the same thing in this kind of situation.

      I'm not saying the Empire knew the Dominion was weak.

      I'm saying that you don't surrender until you know that you're defeated.

      This proves my point, no?

      Depends on what your point is.

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    • My point is that Titus Mede II did make a good decision when signing the peace treaty.

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    • I thought enemies in your capital meant defeat. Correct me if i'm wrong. Remember the Sack of King's Landing? Aerys and his obnoxious Hand should have surrendered.

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    • Sky Above,Voice Within wrote:
      I thought enemies in your capital meant defeat. Correct me if i'm wrong. Remember the Sack of King's Landing? Aerys and his obnoxious Hand should have surrendered.

      Well since the war against King Aerys was a war of deposition it wouldn't truely end until either; Aerys is killed, captured, or surrenders and then someone usurps his kingdom. Or someone can just plain usurp the kingdom without having him killed or anything like that if enough vassals of the kingdom support this man's claim, though Aerys would probably still fight if this happened.

      My point is that Titus Mede II did make a good decision when signing the peace treaty.

      Then no it does not prove your point as my point is that the empire was not necessarily defeated when they surrendered.

      When I say "defeated" my meaning is that you don't surrender until there is no way you can win.

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    • That's not how it works. The leaders were stranded thick on Dominion's power. The remaining sockets of armies could not win without the main force, or the leadership, of Cyrodiil. It's always the same conclusion when i put myself on the Emperor's place.

      I may have just said something to ignite another war. I think they could not win.

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    • Sky Above,Voice Within wrote:

      Dovahsebrom wrote: You only surrender when you know you are defeated.

      Why are you people so sure they knew the Dominion was weak at the time? Most of the imperial logistics must have been destroyed, the informants killed, the messengers captured. The Dominion was in their capital! They couldn't know crap. I would do the same thing in this kind of situation.

      look at hammerfell, they fended off the dominion on their own.

      the great war started in hammerfell, they tried to take it and then attacked cyrodiil to split the imperial forces in hammerfell, if they had more forces why wouldn't they instead attack hammerfell with some of those forces that are left over?

      all they had left is what they had in hammerfell and what they had defending their cities from bandits and the like, if the empire had pressed on and helped hammerfell instead of trying to give half of it away they could have won the entire war, instead of surrendering when they could have won and pretending they came out on top.

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    • I'm focusing on the end of the war now, thank you.

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    • Swolp wrote:

      I think I know where the problem is now. Tamriel is the continent where Skyrim, Black Marsh etc. are located. And I assume you meant the Summerset Isels, correct?

      Um no. I know someone must have picked up what I meant or knew I was mistaking using Tamriel in this case but when I meant Tamriel I meant the world TESIV:O was in; Cyrodill. Where the imperial city is and all those great places the Oblivion Crysis happened. I'm not talking about summerset isles, hammerfell, skyrim or black marsh. My point was suggesting the treaty which didn't help the empire at all and was only signed due to fear and bluffing by the AD, had no jurisdiction passed where the treaty was signed to; CYRODILL / Imperial City. 

      Skyrim, Hammerfell(albeit they pushed out the thalmor anyway), Black Marsh, Summerset Isles....etc should not be enforced to stop worshipping Talos, if any from those locations do, because of the peace treaty. 

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    • The leaders were stranded thick on Dominion's power

      Not sure what your trying to say here.

      The remaining sockets of armies could not win without the main force

      Remaining sockets! are you kidding me? Just about the entire legion regrouped when they took back the Imperial City.

      or the leadership, of Cyrodiil

      What?

      Are you talking about the Imperial City or something.

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    • Wasn't the main army defeated? The core of the Legion? Weren't the leaders surrounded by the Altmer in the Imperial City? It would seem very difficult to continue a war with your command surrounded and half of your forces destroyed.

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    • "While the Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city,"

      Only the Eight Legion was destroyed in the sack of Imperial city, because they were sacrificing themselves to let the others escape the Imperial City. (legions have 3000-6000 troops in them (If TES is using the actual defintion of Legion))

      "Titus II divided his forces into three. One army, with the legions from Hammerfell under General Decianus, was hidden in the Colovian Highlands near Chorrol. The Aldmeri were unaware that he was no longer in Hammerfell, possibly because the Imperial veterans Decianus had left behind led Lady Arannelya to believe that she still faced an Imperial army. The second army, largely of Nord legions under General Jonna, took up position near Cheydinhal. The main army was commanded by the Emperor himself, and would undertake the main assault of the Imperial City from the north"

      The force that took back the Imperial City was massive, each of the armies were made of multiple legions.

      -The Great War

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    • Not sure what to think of that.

      .....

      I'd still sign the treaty. Not to risk having the Emperor's head amidst the Blades'.

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    • Sky Above,Voice Within wrote:
      Not sure what to think of that.

      .....

      I'd still sign the treaty. Not to risk having the Emperor's head amidst the Blades'.

      My point is that the Concordat is too harsh for how good of a situation the Empire was in at that point in the war. Titus should never have signed it if that was the only terms the AD would go by. I mean he literally had to let go of Hammerfell in order to get peace, that is rediculous, how letting go of an entire province is suppose to make the empire "heal" is beyond me. He actually would have been better off if he just accepted the Thalmor ultimatum at the beginning of the war.

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    • Sky Above,Voice Within wrote:
      Not sure what to think of that.

      .....

      I'd still sign the treaty. Not to risk having the Emperor's head amidst the Blades'.

      but the thing is, the only forces the AD had left that could possibly take the emperor's head were the small forces in hammerfell, who were repelled by the redguards and a small number of imperial soldiers, had the empire backed them up after the battle of red ring all the AD would have had were it's small defense forces, there was no reason to sign the WGC, hell Titus Mede II sent the treaty to the AD, he proposed them, sure it was the exact same as what the AD proposed before the war, but he had the upperhand this time, unlike the AD the empire still had a decently large army, he could have actually tried to sign for a truce, instead he gave up, he had the win within sight and he walked back to the starting line to anounce his surrender.

      they calls it a peace treaty, but they're terms of surrender, it could have been a peace treaty, hell it could have been that they asked the AD to surrender, but he gave up. Titus Mede II led the bloodiest battle in tamrielic history and he won, but he couldn't bare with the losses and instead wasted their deaths. their deaths meant nothing after the WGC was signed, he could have signed it instead of going through with the battle of red ring, but instead he had many AD and IL soldiers lose their lives for nothing.

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    • Alright, you managed to get a seed of doubt in me. I'll have to reflect more when i get better from this pneumonia.

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    • When I was told that I was like damn what a fool but it made sense if he was bluffed into doing it, makes you question either how gullible Titus was or how good the thalmor sold the bluff. 

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    • One of the reasons I hate the White-Gold Concordat so much is because I actually do like Titus Mede II, and the concordat just makes him look like a fool.

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    • Honestly i didn't like Titus Mede, i preferred the Uriel Septim Line much better as they wouldn't have submitted to a ridiculous bluff of signing the WGC in the first place. But alas there's no other septim to go on after martin sacrifice himself to stop Mehrunes Dagon. 

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    • The Thalmor are the greatest evil to walk on tameriel. The Thalmor have a plan you see... and the ultimate goal is the reobtain their lost immortality and leave the plane of Mundus and ascend to godhood. They believe they are superior because they are the ones closes in blood (perhaps the right word is beliefs) to the Aldmer (not to be mistaken by Altmer) and thus closest to the gods. The Thalmor want Talos worship banned because it is part of this plan. Remove humans from the pantheon..(the banning of Talos) then remove man from the pattern of possiblities (simply killing all humans is not enough.. they wish to unmake them and it is believed that the Eye of Magnus might be a key component in their plans) then destroy the Towers that keep mundus into existence. (unmake the world)  

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    • No, because they basically want to destroy the world and kill everyone who isn't a elf.

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    • would this include dark elves and wood elves?

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      would this include dark elves and wood elves?

      "Don't worry about Malborn. He's not a dangerous character like you, but he hates the Thalmor at least as much as I do. He's a wood elf the Thalmor wiped out his family back in Valenwood during one of their purges that we never hear about."

      -Delphine

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    • i mean in general: the guy above says the thalmor wants to kill everyone who isn't an elf and wood elves/dark elves are indeed elves. They're not high elves but still elves nontheless. 

      Malborn might hate the thalmor for killing his family but that means little seeing how the thalmor kills anyone(even own race) who doesn't agree with their methods or something. 

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    • I should have bolded the word "purges" the Thalmor plan to kill anyone who isn't pure-blooded.

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    • so they'll kill half breeds? seems a bit unfair imo

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      so they'll kill half breeds? seems a bit unfair imo

      Did you expect the Thalmor to be fair?

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    • Haha, the Thalmor is fair? Never was, never will. It's their souls that I will rend for my enchantments.

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    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      Haha, the Thalmor is fair? Never was, never will. It's their souls that I will rend for my enchantments.

      Why don't just keep the soul gems and laugh at them? I mean, stuck is a soul gem is worse the soul cairn cause you can't talk to other people in a soul gem. If you killed to many, the Thalmor will all regroup in the sour cairn and it won't nearly feel that bad.

      I trap their souls in black soul gems then bury the soul gems in some container.

      I'd reckon the below makes sense:

      To the Nazis (no wrong)... Thalmor, they are correct.

      To every non Thalmor (everyone else) they are wrong.

      Its that simple, cause if you think the Thalmor is correct, you will be part of them, just like how Nazi supporters joined the Nazis

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    • You have a point, 'cause I already have apparel that reduces the cost of destruction spells & weapon enchantments by 100%. Thanks for the idea. I'll keep that in mind.

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    • Meh, I think using portions of their souls to kill their brothers would be worse for them than just sticking them in a barrel for all eternity(until you need a grand soul and you used up the last of our grand soul gems)

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      so they'll kill half breeds? seems a bit unfair imo
      Did you expect the Thalmor to be fair?

      but i see no purpose killing half breeds, they're still elves. =/

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    • Correct. This makes the Thalmor nothing more than genocidal maniacs with a real short temper. They are currently terrorizing most of Tamriel in brand-new elven or glass armor sets or robes with weapons made exclusively from moonstone & glass.

      Even their days are numbered.

      "The Thalmor sought the same thing, and it shall lead to his end as it has so many others." - Augur of Dunlain

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    • "I breathe now in royalty and reshape this land which is mine."

      too badass to be any less than a god.

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    • 190.227.12.5 wrote:
      "I breathe now in royalty and reshape this land which is mine."

      too badass to be any less than a god.

      Good ol' CHIM speech.

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    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      Correct. This makes the Thalmor nothing more than genocidal maniacs with a real short temper. They are currently terrorizing most of Tamriel in brand-new elven or glass armor sets or robes with weapons made exclusively from moonstone & glass.

      Even their days are numbered.

      "The Thalmor sought the same thing, and it shall lead to his end as it has so many others." - Augur of Dunlain

      I remember this quote but i thought he generalized everyone at that last part that wanted power, not necessarily the thalmor. Though pretty interesting he's partially predicting the future. 

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    • You too, huh? The Thalmor's quest for godhood can also be likely become their own undoing.

      Just look what happened to these people, also because of their mad quest for godhood.

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    • You can't become a god in the way the Thalmor want...

      They'd be more sucessful if they all tried to CHIM, cause this seems easier that erasing Talos. After all, just because no one believes in it doesn't mean its not there...

      Anyway, whats wrong with Talos, if 3 powerful thalmor (a king, a witness and a rebel) tried to Emantiomorph and mantle they would have a Elven equivalent of Talos, don't see why they are so crazy...

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    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      You too, huh? The Thalmor's quest for godhood can also be likely become their own undoing.

      Just look what happened to these people, also because of their mad quest for godhood.

      Dwemer did also create a nasty version of the snow elves (but that's another story) so I'm sure the Thalmor could turn Nords into some nasty. 

      But Dwemer have more good things on their side than the thalmor.

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    • The Dwemer are ten times better than those wanna-be true elves.

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    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      The Dwemer are ten times better than those wanna-be true elves.

      You just realised?

      Anyday, science beats magic

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    • Not if I got my personal buddies. These guys are painfully immune to magic, if memory serves me correctly, and if you know how to train them properly.

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    • 218.186.253.7 wrote:
      HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      The Dwemer are ten times better than those wanna-be true elves.
      You just realised?

      Anyday, science beats magic


      Science and magic are the same in the TES universe. Same with physics.

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    • Physics? Yeah, but the Horses of Skyrim never understand physics.

      My horse just helped me climb a ragged mountain from the Alchemist's Shack straight to Arcwind Point.

      Anyway, let's get back on topic.

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    • 218.186.253.7 wrote:
      You can't become a god in the way the Thalmor want...

      They'd be more sucessful if they all tried to CHIM, cause this seems easier that erasing Talos. After all, just because no one believes in it doesn't mean its not there...

      Anyway, whats wrong with Talos, if 3 powerful thalmor (a king, a witness and a rebel) tried to Emantiomorph and mantle they would have a Elven equivalent of Talos, don't see why they are so crazy...

      You can't become a god in the way the Thalmor want...

      They're not trying to become gods... They are trying to remove Lorkhan and Mundus from existence and in-turn restart the period before Lorkhan's existence in which no limitations (mortality) existed in the universe.

      They'd be more sucessful if they all tried to CHIM, cause this seems easier that erasing Talos.

      Because achieving CHIM is extremely easy right?

      First of all CHIM is not even known to exist by just about everyone in TES, and those who do find out about it normally zero-sum. Only two known beings have been known to actually achieve CHIM, Vivec, and Talos (and Anu I guess since he reached Amaranth).

      Anyway, whats wrong with Talos, if 3 powerful thalmor (a king, a witness and a rebel) tried to Emantiomorph and mantle they would have a Elven equivalent of Talos

      Once again, the Enantiomorph is not known to exist by basically everyone. The only people who have actually become gods through Enantiomorph were Tiber, Arctus, and Wulfharth when they became Talos.

      Plus it isn't something that can really be fabrictated, not just any random dude can do it. Tiber, Arctus, and Wulfharth are all Shezarrines.

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    • so by possibility the dragonborn could use the Enantiomorph and become talos? 

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    • It remains a possibility, but we may never know.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      so by possibility the dragonborn could use the Enantiomorph and become talos? 

      I doubt he can become Talos.

      He either becomes another divine cause Alduin and Tsun Emantiomorph with him or its Hermaeus and Miraak, so he becomes the Daedric prince of fate, knowledge and memory (that would be cool, imagine if instead of some tentacular ball we had a badass as a DP).

      He can't become Talos cause none of the others in the Emantiomorphs he participates in has Shezzarines and Talos is a mantling of Lorkhan by 3 shezzarines, which is what I think happened to Talos. The LDB might be a Shezzarine (not likely, though), he might not be.

      In fact, if he managed to kill Alduin atop the throat of the world with Paarthurnax, I think that could have made him into Akatosh (3 dragons doing emantiomorph)

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    • Oh, yeah. After the Last Dragonborn kills Miraak, he is still in debt to the Prince of Knowledge & Fate becuase he inherited Miraak's status.

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    • They said emantiomorphs need a king, a witness and a rebel. The rebel must fight over something with the king and kill the king or something...

      Talos (I think): Underking (king), Zurin (witness), Tiber (rebel) (or was it the other way around? or could the king kill the rebel too?)

      In apocrypha: LDB (rebel), Hermaeus (witness - he never really does anything except teach you the same stuff he taught Miraak), Miraak (king) - fought over the freedom of Solsthiem from Miraak.

      Sovengarde: LDB (rebel) , Tsun (witness), Alduin (king) - fought over the end of the world

      Throat of the world (IF DAMNED ALDUIN WAS NOT ESSENTIAL AND I ATE HIS SOUL!): LDB (rebel), Paarthurnax (witness), Alduin (king), atop a tower by three similar souls (dragons!) - fought over end of the world!

      I think the mantling Hermaeus one is the most legit lorewise so far - Problem is, we now have another hero DP - imagine if suddenly Hermaeus Mora (next game) goes like "Hey hero, did you know I am a good guy? I saved the world from Alduin like a boss!"

      That would be really bad...

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    • assuming of course that bethesda keeps the DB dlc as lore. For all we know it's a what if story for is much like the shivering isles. i don't believe it's canon tbh

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    • 218.186.253.176 wrote:
      I doubt he can become Talos.

      Dovahkiin is a Dragonborn and alluded to as a Shezarrine. You know who else was the same thing?.. Hjalti and Wulfharth. If the Dovahkiin is to mantle anyone it would probably be either Talos or some part of AKA, most likely Alduin, maybe even a different part of Lorkhan.

      so he becomes the Daedric prince of fate, knowledge and memory (that would be cool, imagine if instead of some tentacular ball we had a badass as a DP).

      In order to mantle a god you have to be identical to that god.

      He can't become Talos cause none of the others in the Emantiomorphs he participates in has Shezzarines and Talos is a mantling of Lorkhan by 3 shezzarines, which is what I think happened to Talos.

      Rebel = Dovahkiin

      King = Alduin

      Witness = Shor

      Though not necessrily true that Shor is the witness (as we don't see him) it is highly likely.

      If this is true he could definitely mantle Talos.

      Talos (I think): Underking (king), Zurin (witness), Tiber (rebel) (or was it the other way around? or could the king kill the rebel too?)

      Talos, Wulfharth, and Arctus did a weird Enantiomorph. They were each a witness a rebel and a king... If I'm remembering correctly.

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    • Of course they are, Elves are usually right.

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    • Talos, is overrated anyway.

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    • Spyrocks wrote:
      Talos, is overrated anyway.

      How so?

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    • 50.13.110.34 wrote:
      Of course they are, Elves are usually right.

      Nice joke there lol

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    • Tiber/Talos isnt special aside from having command of the Dragon's Language and he conquered the Continent by Military force, hardly traits worthy of being made a good, while im not a Thalmor supporter (im an Empire man myself or for the nations being independant) i think they are right on this, i kinda though that him being a god in ES4 when i started getting into the lore was kinda done with crappy reasoning on the parts of the Nords and Imperials, just racial pride. also its interesting to note that if he was a god and his lineage and his empire was in danger how come he did not come down to challenge the Daedra but Akatosh did? He may have been powerful and wise in his time on Nirn but to be god material? i dont think so

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    • Spyrocks wrote:
      Talos, is overrated anyway.

      Heresy!

      Talos is the most important of the Nine.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:
      Tiber/Talos isnt special aside from having command of the Dragon's Language and he conquered the Continent by Military force, hardly traits worthy of being made a good, while im not a Thalmor supporter (im an Empire man myself or for the nations being independant) i think they are right on this, i kinda though that him being a god in ES4 when i started getting into the lore was kinda done with crappy reasoning on the parts of the Nords and Imperials, just racial pride. also its interesting to note that if he was a god and his lineage and his empire was in danger how come he did not come down to challenge the Daedra but Akatosh did? He may have been powerful and wise in his time on Nirn but to be god material? i dont think so

      More heresy and blasphemi.

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    • There is good reasoning why he was a god, many people have stated this earlier on in this discussion. It's like claiming your character being the Nevarine in morrowind was BS

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    • Well, the Thalmor certainly aren't left.

      But, seriously, the Thalmor are right and they know it. It's just not about whether Talos is or is not a "Divine" but about how accusations of heresy can ignite a civil war in the enemy camp and make them weak and ripe for the .... taking.

      And as for the Dragonborn not tabling that juicy bit of intel s/he obtained from the Thalmor Embassy concerning Ulfric (at the High Hrothgar parley)... what can I say, but shame shame shame, Dragonborn. That would have made such beautiful kikashi...

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      There is good reasoning why he was a god, many people have stated this earlier on in this discussion. It's like claiming your character being the Nevarine in morrowind was BS

      Worshipping a mortal as a god and saying your character isnt the reincarnation of a great general are two completely different things though

      what is the reasoning? and no dont tell me to read the posts im not shifting through 200+ posts to find the answer. just let me know in your own words, or w/e book your going to mention from the ES universe that he was perfect god material

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:

      Spyrocks wrote:
      Talos, is overrated anyway.

      How so?

      He is no true devine

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    • Spyrocks wrote:

      He is no true devine

      Of course He is a true Divine, he's the truest of all of them.

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