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  • The Cat Master
    The Cat Master closed this thread because:
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    16:13, February 14, 2018

    I sided with the with the Alik'r for a few reasons

    Saadia's story had a lot of inconsistencies and I mean a lot. She says that she spoke out against the Thalmor in Hammerfell and they hired assassins to hunt her down. This doesn't make sense, everyone in Hammerfell hates the Thalmor. They had a war with them and no Redguard would ever support the Thalmor lest work for them. The Thalmor have no influence in Hammerfell as the Redguards pushed them out during the war. It wouldn't matter if she spoke out against the Thalmor because literally everyone in Hammerfell hates them already. Also knowing the Thalmor, she would have been dead already if she was really being hunted by them.

    Kematu's story makes way more sense than Saadia's. His side of the story is that she sold out a city of Hammerfell (I can't remember which one) and because of that it fell during the war causing hundreds if not thousands to lose there lives. If you side with the Alik'r, later on there is a possibility that you will be attacked by Thalmor Justiciars with and execution order. Why is that? It is probably because you helped the Alik'r find someone they were protecting. I just have a gut feeling that Kematu is telling the truth, his story seems to make a lot more sense than Saadia's. Most Redguards that you meet in the game seem to be honorable people and I feel that Kematu is no different. They have no reason to help the Thalmor, all Redguards hate the Thalmor with a passion because of the war. 

    Just a side note: If you read the article about the Great War and get to the section telling about how the Thalmor were pushed back across the Alik'r desert it states that they were harrassed by Alik'r warriors the whole way. I doubt the Thalmor would go looking to them for help rather than just doing it themselves.

    I'd like to know which side you guys picked and why. Also if you have evidence of one side being right and the other being wrong post that too!

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    • Kematu's history is the real one. i picked him because of it

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    • actually you can't prove one story or the other. i think the alikr are telling the truth but i still side with saddia. 

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    • Alik'r most likely...

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    • i think there's no specific "right and wrong", i think the quest was thought to make any choice right... sure, maybe you're right, saadia's story sounds weird, but we got to remember (assuming she was trustworthy) that the men were mercs, a.k.a, do everything for anyone who pays the best. but i can't help but to feel the warriors were the good- doers all along, so i helped'em

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    • Remember guys, dont fall for a pretty face, you're better than that

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    • That face isn't even pretty imo.

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    • I always ignore those Redguards in Whiterun. Who do they think I am, some kind of errand-boy? I have bigger problems, like fetching a mammoth's tusk for Ysolda.

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    • ^ikr, I did the quest once the rest of my characters didn't care

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    • I just choose the way that gets you more money, which means I sell out Saadia and once I get my reward from Kematu I kill him, use calm on Saadia and get my reward from her and since I never go into the Bannered Mare I let her live.

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    • You're an a-Hole :D

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    • Nait Nelthar wrote:
      You're an a-Hole :D

      He said he lets her live?  :-)

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    • Frozenhero1 wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      You're an a-Hole :D
      He said he lets her live?  :-)

      he didnt let Kematu live >:-(

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    • 108.64.128.25 wrote:
      Frozenhero1 wrote:
      Nait Nelthar wrote:
      You're an a-Hole :D
      He said he lets her live?  :-)
      he didnt let Kematu live >:-(

      If I let him live I don't get a reward from Saadia! :)

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    • Saadia is clearly the traitor in this quest.you can tell from her and Kematu's dialouge.

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    • I'm sorry, but a group of mercenaries that leave their own behind on a whim are anything but honorable. If not all Nords hate the Thalmor, then I doubt everybody in Hamerfell hate the Thalmor.  The Thalmor also wouldn't waste resources protecting the likes of Saadia, and if they were, those Alikr mercs would be dead, and she wouldn't be asking you for help.  Not to mention that if Alikr had been under contract by one of the Redguard houses, they would have had a nice piece of paper with evidence of that to show the great dragonborn.    

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    • ^You say the likes of Saadia as if she is some unimportant bar maid. You realize that she is actually a Noble of one of the houses in Taneth and she sold out the city so the Thalmor could conquer it during the war. Now she's on the run because the Alik'r are trying to bring her back to Hammerfell to face trial. If you listen to Kematu speak when he tells you his side of the story you could just hear it in his voice that he's telling the truth. When Saadia speaks she contradicts herself many times, it's pretty obvious that she's lying.

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    • Windhelm Guard wrote:
      ^You say the likes of Saadia as if she is some unimportant bar maid. You realize that she is actually a Noble of one of the houses in Taneth and she sold out the city so the Thalmor could conquer it during the war. Now she's on the run because the Alik'r are trying to bring her back to Hammerfell to face trial. If you listen to Kematu speak when he tells you his side of the story you could just hear it in his voice that he's telling the truth. When Saadia speaks she contradicts herself many times, it's pretty obvious that she's lying.

      Yeah, I have not a single time believed Saadia was telling the truth...

      but because of that, I wouldn't be too surprised if Bethesda ends up saying she's actually telling the truth in the next game.

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    • A pretty face will sway the truth

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    • Laslo451 wrote:
      A pretty face will sway the truth

      my sister said Kematu is man-pretty.

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    • Finally I helped Kematu because the chick looks somewhat evil. I can't tell you whose story is true. No one can tell you because Bethesda didn't tell the whole story. Just pick a side you consider it's the truth.

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    • 108.64.128.25 wrote:
      Remember guys, dont fall for a pretty face, you're better than that

      Guilty as charged :/

      On my first character I helped Saadia, but it was also because I wanted to keep fighting in the dungeon, and Kematu himself looked sorta...Untrustworthy. Still, didn't think about who to believe until long after the quest was done. Lost my Riekling that day, too...

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    • Well considering all the noble houses of Hammerfell united to fight the thalmor... no reason for one to have insulted the thalmor to leave, especially when that person was a noble. just remember she claims to not know of the Alik'r in Whiterun and then she tells you of the one in jail, who knows, might just be her telepathy.

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    • The first time I did this quest, I didn't even talk with Kematu. I arrived to the cavern and begun to shoot arrows. Imagine my surprise when, with my next character (more melee at that point), I discovered that the Alik'r don't attack you unless you attack first. Since then, I had sided with them every time, but I still have some doubts about them. It could go either way, really.

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    • I don't know I think I some how helped both killed Kematu but also told the Alik'r about Saadia.

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    • I was just interested in the reward really, but what I did was initially agreed to help Kematu so he would come to Whiterun, then I just killed him while he was by himself so I wouldn't have to face like 10 Alik'r warriors simultaneously.

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    • I completely think Kematu is telling the truth, and Saadia is with the Aldmeri.

      That would be why I side with her.

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    • I side with kematu... Down with the Dominion!

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    • The girl has a pretty face so she must be untrustworthy. Seemes legit :-P

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    • I don't like saadia's face...

      And those characters that say "and you thought i was just a pretty face" don't tend to be pretty at all IMO.

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    • Don't forget that Saddia says that Alik'r want to assassinate her and when you side with Kematu she's just "captured".

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    • Pink Slim
      Pink Slim removed this reply because:
      Blatant Racism
      20:46, August 5, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • 66.30.49.19 wrote:
      I think Kematu is telling the truth in this case, but I still side with Saadia because of a couple reasons:

      1) Kematu is black. This makes him automatically untrustworthy.

      2) The Alik'r are a bunch of assholes that wear turbans. Are we in Iraq?

      3) I'm glad Saadia ratted out a Redgaurd house. The Redgaurds didn't help Cyrodil fight the Thalmor during the Great War, thus causing the Emporer to fall and accept the terms of the White-Gold Concordat and loose Skyrim's right to worship Talos. Had the Redgaurds fought as well, then the Empire probably would have won, and therefore Ulfric wouldn't have killed the High King, and there wouldn't be a civil war against the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

      Do not blame the Redguards, blame Titus Mede II. His bad leadership is the reason why Tamriel had troubles with the elves.

      I sided with Kematu,. Alliance + Money; worth more than some tavern wench.

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    • I don't bother with Kematu and side with Saadia because 1. Saadia is in a populated bar in a large city and I'm not escaping bounty if I kill her, 2. Kematu is inside a bandit cave, which gives me plenty of motive to use area destruction spells and firestorm, blizzard, and lightning storm that place to bits, followed up by more destruction, and 3. My dragonborn is a shady dragonborn. He doesn't go overt Theives Guild or Dark Brotherhood, but siding with the more wrong side in the moral debate by default. He also likes stealing your cutlery and cheap baskets. He sides with the imperials because Hadvar was already helping him, kills Alduin solely because he annoyed him, wiped Miraak off the map for kidnapping NPCs I had use for, stealing dragon souls, and hogging Apocrypha, and obliterated Harkon for the Dawnguard because he was rude to him when I recovered Serana. He only chooses the friendly options for daedric conversations because they're too hard to kill and not get chased by cultists.

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    • 66.30.49.19 wrote:
      I think Kematu is telling the truth in this case, but I still side with Saadia because of a couple reasons:

      3) I'm glad Saadia ratted out a Redgaurd house. The Redgaurds didn't help Cyrodil fight the Thalmor during the Great War, thus causing the Emporer to fall and accept the terms of the White-Gold Concordat and loose Skyrim's right to worship Talos. Had the Redgaurds fought as well, then the Empire probably would have won, and therefore Ulfric wouldn't have killed the High King, and there wouldn't be a civil war against the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

      Yeah, I'm deleting this post for multiple reasons:

      Blatant racism

      "Facts" that are just wrong.

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    • Actually I did pick Kematu becuase I thought he was cute. Not to mention those curved butt... I mean swords ;-)

      Bar that, I don't think that Saadia is/was really lying either. In actual fact, I think her to be somewhat dull and ignorant. She may have tried to do the right thing by helping her house, but she went about the completely wrong way of doing it. Running away has never solved anything and she ended up paying the price (in my case).

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    • Rukathesoldier
      Rukathesoldier removed this reply because:
      lel
      16:47, August 10, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • And "Facts that are JUST WRONG!" 

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    • 24.20.217.147 wrote:
      I'm a complete dumbass who has no friends because I'm a ******* shithead.

      True.

      one hundred percent true.

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    • There is an inconsistency with Kematu's story, though. The Talmor have no record of her presence in Skyrim. She is inconsistent, but many nervous person can be inconsistent. Kematu was convincing, but he is an Alik'r mercenary. He has charisma and can lie easily, similar to Ulfric. The Talmor ALWAYS have an account of their agents/supporters in any province. They are much more likely not to know an enemy is Skyrim than one of their supporters. Alik'r's are mercenaries, and thus they can be bought. The Talmor often use mercenaries for their handywork when  using Justicars is too blatant. Kematu could have easily sent the Justicars after the player to get rid of him, seeing he is a dangerous loose end.

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    • 67.174.173.192 wrote:
      There is an inconsistency with Kematu's story, though. The Talmor have no record of her presence in Skyrim. She is inconsistent, but many nervous person can be inconsistent. Kematu was convincing, but he is an Alik'r mercenary...

      They didn't have any use for Saadia after she left, so they wouldn't care if she was taken or killed.

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    • Picked Saadia's side because of the alik'r siding with bandits to hide out in a cave, and of course the loot is better if you kill a lot of men

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    • I kill them both to be safe, I do the same thing in the beggining of the Dark Brotherhood quest line when you're forced to execute 1 of the three prisoners. Better safe than sorry >;)

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    • She doesn't contradict herself at all. She says she spoke out against the Dominion, and fled, and the Thalmor sent assassins after her. Pretty simple story.

      Now, as to it making no sense for her to flee, it makes perfect sense to flee. Kematu's story has three parts- 1, she sold out her city. 2, the Thalmor took the city. 3, they're there to bring her to justice, on behalf of Hammerfell's government.

      Now, while I don't buy part 1 or part 3, I believe part 2, because I don't think anyone as clever as he seems to be would say a city was taken if it never was. He's probably taking a real event and blaming her for it, because if he was lying about the city being taken, he could easily be called out on it. "She sold out this city, and the Thalmor took it over!" "...The Thalmor never took that city over." "Oh... erm... I mean..." "You're a liar... and now you're dead. Fus Ro Dah."

      So, because lying about the city being taken is a stupid move, it's safe to assume that the Thalmor took it over... which would mean that fleeing does in fact make sense, because if I spoke out against a group of Elven supremacists, and they took control of my city, I'd run, too, otherwise they'd execute me and parade my corpse through the streets.

      Now, for part 3 of his story. Kematu was associating with bandits, who normally attack people on sight. Now, this doesn't mean anything by itself, but bandits don't pick their fights very well, considering they'll attack the dragonborn when he/she's in full daedric armor. So they probably wouldn't be afraid to try to attack the Alik'r. Since the bandits are still alive, they didn't fight the Alik'r, meaning Kematu probably paid them off, indicating he has a fair bit of funding to throw around. Now, if he were working for the Hammerfell leadership, he could probably afford to do this... Except that he wouldn't need to hang around in a bandit camp, because they'd likely give him some sort of note saying he was here on official business, on their behalf, which would go a long way towards smoothing over the political nightmare that would be convincing someone to hand over someone in their city to a foreign power, and probably convince the guards to look the other way, given how much they hate the Thalmor. The other likely source of such funding is the Thalmor, and it seems much more likely that a group of mercenaries who don't have anything to suggest they're working for the leaders of Hammerfell are actually working for the Thalmor, that being the only other option that readily presents itself.

      So, since it seems pretty unlikely that they're actually working for Hammerfell, Part 1 of his story has almost no credibility, and the fact that they're mercenaries in it for the money, who abandon each other rather casually doesn't exactly help their case.

      And the Justiciars are just as likely after you as a loose end as they are for killing someone who supported them. To be honest, it doesn't seem like they'd really be that bothered by a human who supported them being killed. They seem eager enough to remind their own Altmer agents of their expendability, and the Thalmor don't have a dossier on her. They obviously don't think of her as anything of vital importance, meaning it's unlikely they'd sent agents out for revenge. Could be that they were sent after you just in case you started to think "Wait just a minute..." and tried to tell anyone what really happened.

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    • Saadia said the alik'r were there to assassinate but the alik'r say they were going to take her back to hammerfell for a trial and if you help the alik'r they don't kill her so doesn't this mean Saadia lied ? as they didn't assasinate her?

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    • 68.186.109.254 wrote:
      She doesn't contradict herself at all. She says she spoke out against the Dominion, and fled, and the Thalmor sent assassins after her. Pretty simple story...

      I just wanna make a comment on the "Alik'r could have had a note from Hammerfell" bit. If Kematu had been flashing a note around saying he was here to capture some rouge noble from Hammerfell who "somehow" helped the Thalmor take over the city, that would make him a target for local Thalmor Justicar's, who if you notice are strolling around every dirt road in Skyrim. Even if the Thalmor don't have a dossier on Saadia, and probably don't care about her now that the city was taken, they could still come after someone who most likely fought against them in Hammerfell, espcially if he has an official note from his government or ruling body, since the Redguards fought the hell out of the Thalmor before. Since they have the "authority" to just up and take Nord citizens away for questioning (torture), they wouldn't think twice about going after some Redguard foriegner so it kinda makes sense that Kematu would hire up disposable bandits to guard the cave. If the Thalmor come, big whoop, some bandits died while the Alik'r could escape.

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    • damn, you two AWK's beat me to the punch, I thought those exact two counterpoints.. but then you two had to steal the spotlight... five hours before me.

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    • I like Saadia, but I always give her up (Or ignore the quest completely).

      Sorry Saadia but no pretty face will sway me, and what if she did aid the Thalmor?

      It's too big a gamble to risk her getting away.


      It'd suck if it ever came to pass that those Ali'kr work for slavers or something, bou would I feel bad.

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    • 80.216.214.210 wrote:
      I like Saadia, but I always give her up (Or ignore the quest completely).

      Sorry Saadia but no pretty face will sway me, and what if she did aid the Thalmor?

      It's too big a gamble to risk her getting away.


      It'd suck if it ever came to pass that those Ali'kr work for slavers or something, bou would I feel bad.

      if they were slavers they wouldn't be after her specifically; unless she did something really bad to the slaver or his family.

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    • Saadia's story seems to have too many holes in it.  The Alik'r are far more convincing 

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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      80.216.214.210 wrote:
      I like Saadia, but I always give her up (Or ignore the quest completely).

      Sorry Saadia but no pretty face will sway me, and what if she did aid the Thalmor?

      It's too big a gamble to risk her getting away.


      It'd suck if it ever came to pass that those Ali'kr work for slavers or something, bou would I feel bad.

      if they were slavers they wouldn't be after her specifically; unless she did something really bad to the slaver or his family.

      She could be a runaway or somesuch.

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    • Immortal Wizard wrote:
      Saadia's story seems to have too many holes in it.  The Alik'r are far more convincing 

      Hm, maybe too convincing?

      Gotta think about that...

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    • 80.216.214.210 wrote:
      Immortal Wizard wrote:
      Saadia's story seems to have too many holes in it.  The Alik'r are far more convincing 
      Hm, maybe too convincing?

      Gotta think about that...

      The thing about both of these stories is Saadia's new to the game of law breaking, lieing, and yes her stories have many holes. While Alik'r are assasins and have been trained and hired to do and say what ever it takes to bring her back.

      My Personal opinion on which path to chose, is if you character is in your roleplay sense a empathtic and emotional, pick saadia's, but if you character is all for who ever has less work, go with Arik'r then go with them. 

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    • If you side with Kematu but kill Saadia when she is trapped Kematu gets really angry and says "All that work and you just kill her!", which makes me tink he must have been telling the truth about taking her back for Justice.

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    • There's a lot of factors, but two sway me towards aiding Kematu:

      1) When you let Saadia know about the Alik'r, her first move is to lead you into a backroom and threaten to kill you. That's supsicious, and I don't particularly care for being threatened when I let someone know something.

      2) She says she doesn't know about the Alik'r, then suggests you go talk to the Alik'r prisoner in the Whiterun Jail. That's quite contradictory for about two minutes of dialogue.

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    • I getta say that Kematu is telling the truth.

      If you read Saadia's dialogue after you ask her to put the dagger down, she says that the Alik'r will drag her back to Hammerfell for execution.

      If you've delved into TES lore, you would know that Hammerfell is defeated the Aldmeri Dominion and is now free of them. Why would she fear execution in Hammerfell if she didin't betray them to the Aldmeri.

      Conclusion. She betrayed Hammerfell and now fears going back there.

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    • 108.209.155.127 wrote:
      There's a lot of factors, but two sway me towards aiding Kematu:

      1) When you let Saadia know about the Alik'r, her first move is to lead you into a backroom and threaten to kill you. That's supsicious, and I don't particularly care for being threatened when I let someone know something.

      2) She says she doesn't know about the Alik'r, then suggests you go talk to the Alik'r prisoner in the Whiterun Jail. That's quite contradictory for about two minutes of dialogue.


      The first point can be shot down easily: If I were a fugitive from a xenophobe and powerful organization as the altmer, and some guy/girl clothed in armor I never saw before tells me that Alik'r are after me in the very city I hid in, I would be paranoid and think that who is in front of me has been sent by the Alik'r to kill me without making a scene in the bannered mare.

      The 2nd pint is harder to debate, but when you talk to the imprisoned Alik'r you learn that he wasn't really caught in Whiterun. From a normal citizen's perspective (as Saadia is trying to be), it's only normal to come to know of someone being arrested in her city. She may have thought that they still didn't know about her being in whiterun and the only Alik'r close to her wouldn't be a threat since he's jailed. But then the dragonborn comes to her and tells her that two Alik'r agents on the loose.

      She is a noble and young, she can't possibily have enough cold blood to tell a fair, calm and convincing story, unlike Kematu.


      I'm right about to choose a side and I think I'll side with Saadia here.

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    • 79.52.224.20 wrote:
      108.209.155.127 wrote:
      There's a lot of factors, but two sway me towards aiding Kematu:

      1) When you let Saadia know about the Alik'r, her first move is to lead you into a backroom and threaten to kill you. That's supsicious, and I don't particularly care for being threatened when I let someone know something.

      2) She says she doesn't know about the Alik'r, then suggests you go talk to the Alik'r prisoner in the Whiterun Jail. That's quite contradictory for about two minutes of dialogue.


      The first point can be shot down easily: If I were a fugitive from a xenophobe and powerful organization as the altmer, and some guy/girl clothed in armor I never saw before tells me that Alik'r are after me in the very city I hid in, I would be paranoid and think that who is in front of me has been sent by the Alik'r to kill me without making a scene in the bannered mare.

      The 2nd pint is harder to debate, but when you talk to the imprisoned Alik'r you learn that he wasn't really caught in Whiterun. From a normal citizen's perspective (as Saadia is trying to be), it's only normal to come to know of someone being arrested in her city. She may have thought that they still didn't know about her being in whiterun and the only Alik'r close to her wouldn't be a threat since he's jailed. But then the dragonborn comes to her and tells her that two Alik'r agents on the loose.

      She is a noble and young, she can't possibily have enough cold blood to tell a fair, calm and convincing story, unlike Kematu.


      I'm right about to choose a side and I think I'll side with Saadia here.

      if you side with Kematu, they don't execute her, they take her back to hammerfell where she will face trial, and if you kill her when Kematu's about to take her he complaigns about all the hard work to find her and now she can't face trial; HOWEVER, if you side with Saadia, she wants you to go and murder a bunch of people.

      I think I know which one isn't the nice one.

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    • Pink Slim wrote:
       
      if you side with Kematu, they don't execute her, they take her back to hammerfell where she will face trial, and if you kill her when Kematu's about to take her he complaigns about all the hard work to find her and now she can't face trial; HOWEVER, if you side with Saadia, she wants you to go and murder a bunch of people.

      I think I know which one isn't the nice one.

      And who knows if they claim to bring her to trial and then, after they're far from any eye, just murder her. + Kematu's complain after you kill her may just be a fake (since all of this happens near whiterun, and he doesn't want you to call guards and/or wants to keep up his story).

      Also, she doesn't want you to kill ALL the Alik'r, she asks you to kill their leader so the rest would scatter. They're mercenaries hired by the thalmor, there can't possibly be another solution.

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    • 79.3.209.235 wrote:

      Also, she doesn't want you to kill ALL the Alik'r, she asks you to kill their leader so the rest would scatter. They're mercenaries hired by the thalmor, there can't possibly be another solution.

      If they are mercenaries, then they won't scatter because their leader is killed. They would scatter when their client is killed, and seeing as how the Dominion would be their client, that would take a long time.

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    • K kematu has the best points that are most accurate with elder scrolls lore/history and his dialogue where saadia has a bunch of dialogue that doesn't add up or make sense. Two and slightly off topic wish they would have added dlc to do after you completed the civil war in skyrim for one side or the other to take down the aldmeri dominion. Cause i don't know about you but my dragon born is a abdass and would be right up in there all by himself slashing their army to bits

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    • I think it's cute the way she pulls a knife on you. Cute in a patheticly futile way.

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    • I side with the Alik'r, I haven't found enough proof for either side. However the Alik'r story seem's more feesible to me. Also when Kematu meet's you at the stable's, he use's a petrify spell to capture her for trial, instead of killing her on the spot. (I guess he could do that and kill her on the road to misdirect you, but I don't think so.)

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    • How do we know the Alik'r aren't just mercs, hired by a rival House to kill her for false crimes, only caring about the coin?

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    • read the thread.

      and if you'd rather not, I'll just repeat something said pretty often:

      When you side with the Alik'r, then kill her they get pissed off at you, someone who just wants to kill her and get it over with wont be mad and say 'after all that hard work, and you just kill her.'

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    • When I went to talk to Saadia, I drew my bow at the point where she pulls a knife on you out of suspicion but before the dialogue force started, so when it ended the arrow was automatically loosed, killing her instantly. 

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    • That's what happened for me, but with the Emperor.

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    • Anyone who wants to strike fear on, oh, let's say,a house of hammerfell, wouldn't they prefer a public, drawn out execution rather than a blank "she's dead" statement

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    • one thing tought. if you side with Kematu, eventually u will find Saadia's burrial urn in Whiterun's House of the Dead. So yeah Kematu was lying through his theeth.

      source http://gaming.stackexchange.com/questions/52128/whos-telling-the-truth-saadia-or-kematu

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    • Actually, have anyone considered that they could BOTH be lying (definitely not both telling half truths). Saadia might have betrayed the redguards and stuff. The thalmor might have wanted to tie up loose ends (instead of protecting her? they might have an earlier agreement for protection, as most traitors, spies and informants have) and so sent Kematu to kill her. Its not impossible for both of them to lie, you know. Saadia's story has many holes, but Kematu's story is not the most convincing either (to me, that is).

      p.s. I double cross them for cash and also because I am objective. Dead bodies do not lie (yes, Draugr are honest)

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    • SaigyouAyakashi wrote:
      I don't bother with Kematu and side with Saadia because 1. Saadia is in a populated bar in a large city and I'm not escaping bounty if I kill her, 2. Kematu is inside a bandit cave, which gives me plenty of motive to use area destruction spells and firestorm, blizzard, and lightning storm that place to bits, followed up by more destruction, and 3. My dragonborn is a shady dragonborn. He doesn't go overt Theives Guild or Dark Brotherhood, but siding with the more wrong side in the moral debate by default. He also likes stealing your cutlery and cheap baskets. He sides with the imperials because Hadvar was already helping him, kills Alduin solely because he annoyed him, wiped Miraak off the map for kidnapping NPCs I had use for, stealing dragon souls, and hogging Apocrypha, and obliterated Harkon for the Dawnguard because he was rude to him when I recovered Serana. He only chooses the friendly options for daedric conversations because they're too hard to kill and not get chased by cultists.

      Wow,LMAO,your fukkin LEGEND bra,your dragonborns like a medeavil chuck norris.

      1. SaigyouAyakashi4President
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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      79.52.224.20 wrote:
      108.209.155.127 wrote:
      There's a lot of factors, but two sway me towards aiding Kematu:

      1) When you let Saadia know about the Alik'r, her first move is to lead you into a backroom and threaten to kill you. That's supsicious, and I don't particularly care for being threatened when I let someone know something.

      2) She says she doesn't know about the Alik'r, then suggests you go talk to the Alik'r prisoner in the Whiterun Jail. That's quite contradictory for about two minutes of dialogue.


      The first point can be shot down easily: If I were a fugitive from a xenophobe and powerful organization as the altmer, and some guy/girl clothed in armor I never saw before tells me that Alik'r are after me in the very city I hid in, I would be paranoid and think that who is in front of me has been sent by the Alik'r to kill me without making a scene in the bannered mare.

      The 2nd pint is harder to debate, but when you talk to the imprisoned Alik'r you learn that he wasn't really caught in Whiterun. From a normal citizen's perspective (as Saadia is trying to be), it's only normal to come to know of someone being arrested in her city. She may have thought that they still didn't know about her being in whiterun and the only Alik'r close to her wouldn't be a threat since he's jailed. But then the dragonborn comes to her and tells her that two Alik'r agents on the loose.

      She is a noble and young, she can't possibily have enough cold blood to tell a fair, calm and convincing story, unlike Kematu.


      I'm right about to choose a side and I think I'll side with Saadia here.

      if you side with Kematu, they don't execute her, they take her back to hammerfell where she will face trial, and if you kill her when Kematu's about to take her he complaigns about all the hard work to find her and now she can't face trial; HOWEVER, if you side with Saadia, she wants you to go and murder a bunch of people.

      I think I know which one isn't the nice one.

      but cant they just pretend to take her back and kill her along the way,i mean were not with them the whole trip,they could have easily lied to a gullible dragonborn,they could do anything when were not around.on top of that there frikkin assassin mercinarys  who havent a seal or slip,scroll,plaque,driver licence,or seal or anything proving what he says is true,idk about you guys but i sided with the person who wasnt rolling 12 deep with bandits and curved swords!

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    • the redguard girl

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    • Poemkid wrote:
      Pink Slim wrote:
      79.52.224.20 wrote:
      108.209.155.127 wrote:
      There's a lot of factors, but two sway me towards aiding Kematu:

      1) When you let Saadia know about the Alik'r, her first move is to lead you into a backroom and threaten to kill you. That's supsicious, and I don't particularly care for being threatened when I let someone know something.

      2) She says she doesn't know about the Alik'r, then suggests you go talk to the Alik'r prisoner in the Whiterun Jail. That's quite contradictory for about two minutes of dialogue.


      The first point can be shot down easily: If I were a fugitive from a xenophobe and powerful organization as the altmer, and some guy/girl clothed in armor I never saw before tells me that Alik'r are after me in the very city I hid in, I would be paranoid and think that who is in front of me has been sent by the Alik'r to kill me without making a scene in the bannered mare.

      The 2nd pint is harder to debate, but when you talk to the imprisoned Alik'r you learn that he wasn't really caught in Whiterun. From a normal citizen's perspective (as Saadia is trying to be), it's only normal to come to know of someone being arrested in her city. She may have thought that they still didn't know about her being in whiterun and the only Alik'r close to her wouldn't be a threat since he's jailed. But then the dragonborn comes to her and tells her that two Alik'r agents on the loose.

      She is a noble and young, she can't possibily have enough cold blood to tell a fair, calm and convincing story, unlike Kematu.


      I'm right about to choose a side and I think I'll side with Saadia here.

      if you side with Kematu, they don't execute her, they take her back to hammerfell where she will face trial, and if you kill her when Kematu's about to take her he complaigns about all the hard work to find her and now she can't face trial; HOWEVER, if you side with Saadia, she wants you to go and murder a bunch of people.

      I think I know which one isn't the nice one.

      but cant they just pretend to take her back and kill her along the way,i mean were not with them the whole trip,they could have easily lied to a gullible dragonborn,they could do anything when were not around.on top of that there frikkin assassin mercinarys  who havent a seal or slip,scroll,plaque,driver licence,or seal or anything proving what he says is true,idk about you guys but i sided with the person who wasnt rolling 12 deep with bandits and curved swords!

      Then why would they be dissapointed if you kill her after he paralyzes her?

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    • This doesn't make sense, everyone in Hammerfell hates the Thalmor. They had a war with them and no Redguard would ever support the Thalmor lest work for them.


      This argument doesn't really make any sense. If no redguard would help them, then why would Saadia have sold the city out? Wouldn't that be helping the Thalmor?

      The point of this quest is that there is no right or wrong.  You have just as much reason to believe one side or the other.  Either way, it means someone did something for monetary gain.

      In Bethesda games, the most believable story is most often the wrong one, so which do you believe more?

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    • I chose Saadia's side, and now the Ali'kir warriors are just randomly in front of the whiterun gates... :/

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    • I'm confused with who I'll choose, but I'm going to try Saadia.

      Saadia could be an spy of the Thalmor, and that would explain why they come after you.

      Y'know, a redguard on the middle of Hamerfell would be less weird than a high elf. Perfect Spy. But she's clumsy, and she's on the run for quite some time; as Kematu first sentence implies she traded her name a couple of times.

      Kematu is clearly trained in the way of speech. His dialogue gives too much of a "truth" feeling; is too much convincing...

      And, well. A certain person in Windhelm almost convinced me to bring the wrong one to jail.

      As Hammerfell is not reachable in Skyrim..Kematu could be lying hard. Maybe the "Resistence" doesn't exist anymore and he's just talking what anyone within Skyrim would want to hear. Rival houses( Saadia's claim) pursuing her when they have united against the Aldmeri (as claimed here) would be really weird,tho.

      I think if the thalmor were against her, they would be wanting her dead, while the houses would want her alive for public execution, as someone've said.

      Oh, confusing quest. >->

      Haha, someone could lure thalmor soldiers into the cave and see if the alik'r will atack the dragonborn or the thalmor.

      Btw, sorry for any english errors..i'm a little rusted.

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    • There's an encounter you can get on the way to Whiterun from Riverwood, where a pair of Alik'r warriors are harrassing a Redguard woman on the road. It seems trivial, but something to consider - They don't draw their swords, and they let her go the moment they realize that she's the wrong woman. This, combined with the fact that Kematu uses a paralysis spell, and the fact he's willing to talk rather than simply have his men (who clearly outnumber you) torture you for information, suggests that the Alik'r are not the viscious cutthroats you've been led to believe. They show every intent of capturing Saadia, not killing her.

      As to her burial urn appearing in the hall of the dead, I see three added possibilities.

      1. There was a real Saadia, who the fugitive Iman took the place of.

      2. Saadia/Iman herself left an urn there - or arranged for it to be left - to fake her death and throw off pursuers before you left the city to make your "escape".

      3. The Alik'r had her ashes sent back (or a false urn) as a kindness after she was taken for trial, since it is better to know someone is dead than to worry what has happened to them (and it would also ensure no other allies she may have made attempt to rescue her).


      Also, there's the fact that the Alik'r work openly, opperating undisguised and in broad daylight, making no secret of what they are doing. That's behaviour more in line with a police opperation. Assassins would want to be as covert as possible, lest someone track the killing back to them.

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    • Kefke Wren wrote:
      There's an encounter you can get on the way to Whiterun from Riverwood, where a pair of Alik'r warriors are harrassing a Redguard woman on the road. It seems trivial, but something to consider...

      hmm,i never thought of that..thats a good argument,maybe your right,man i knew i shoulda killed her...she coulda had a huge friggen bounty on her head

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    • I sided with Sadia. Took me a few minutes to decide on the answer, but eventually I came to a conclusion. 

      I don't care about their story! I don't care what happened back in Redguard! What matters now is the present. Sadia is living a happy life in Whiterun, surrounded by her friends. I don't care what she had done in the past, I don't care what the Past Sadia had done. What I do care about is, that the Sadia I met, the innocent barmaid of The Bannered Mare is in trouble. And I am going to help my friend!

      Kematu didn't like my answer, that's for sure!

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    • I thought a lot about this one, and I came to one conclusion.

      I find it hard to believe, if not completely impossible, that the Aldmeri Dominion found a group of Redguards that would actually work for them to capture another Redguard, specifically ONE Redguard, who spoke out against them.  A lot of Redguards speak out against the Dominion, and for good reason.  Frankly, I think the Dominion would find another way to get a hold of her, if they bothered going after her at all.

      On another note, Imar is way, way too on edge for someone who's purely innocent.  She instantly pulls a dagger and threatens to kill you.  She's jumpy and violent, and automatically assumes the Alik'r are there to kill her rather than capture her.  I know this quest comes down to opinion, but I can't see Imal as a trustworthy person.  I see her as someone wracked with guilt over having done something really wrong and damaging, and "speaking out against the Dominion" sure as hell isn't all that damaging, in the end.  If she were simply against the Dominion, she could have found any number of places in Hammerfell to take refuge.  And no, I really don't think the Dominion would have offered her refuge in their country even if she were a supporter.  She's just a silly human, after all.

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    • Saadia's story is just flat shady, and Kematu uses a fairly high level spell.  Redguard warriors are not known for their magic abilities....I just couldnt risk being wrong, so everyone died....All the random pairs on the side of the road, the prisoner, everyone at Swindler's Den, Kematu himself, and Saadia.  Like someone else said the dead can't lie, and Ebony Arrows to the face make people very truthful very quickly.

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    • WhoeverReadThis wrote:
      i think there's no specific "right and wrong", i think the quest was thought to make any choice right... sure, maybe you're right, saadia's story sounds weird, but we got to remember (assuming she was trustworthy) that the men were mercs, a.k.a, do everything for anyone who pays the best. but i can't help but to feel the warriors were the good- doers all along, so i helped'em

      ^ This

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    • The only thing that bugged me was Kematu mentioning a "bounty" when you go to talk to him in the cave. Most of the "bounties" I've dealt with in these games has been "kill the bad bad man to get money."

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    • that's because there are no capture mechanics in the game. in real life bounties are mostly capture, sometimes it's dead or alive.

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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      that's because there are no capture mechanics in the game. in real life bounties are mostly capture, sometimes it's dead or alive.

      Yes, this is true, most of the time, in a kill scenario, soldiers (special forces) will be sent, not a bounty for mercs.

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    • I sided with Sadia, but reading all this I feel like I've made the wrong decision. 

      At that time I felt like the Alik'r just thought of me as the naive, stupid dragonborn, who'd be convinced by a made up story. Since Sadia didn't really have anyone to laugh with because she was or in disguise or just a barmaid who didn't mean much to anyone, I liked her more. I don't really like the idea of people laughing their asses of because of my stupidity, so siding with Sadia seemed the best decision for my 'reputation' and so to me. 

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    • I went with the safest option, ripped them both off and killed the lot of them, that way I KNOW I got the right one no matter what.

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    • Hereticalthoughts wrote:
      I went with the safest option, ripped them both off and killed the lot of them, that way I KNOW I got the right one no matter what.

      Clever...

      I did that too

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    • If the Dominion is really hiring assassins to kill people for speaking out against them, wouldn't Heimskr be the first one on their list? Why is Saadia so jumpy in the city where Heimskr publicly trash talks the Thalmor every day if that is all she did wrong?

      I've got to give Kematu credit for having the guts to talk so calmly to the dragonborn who just slaughtered all his men. The lack of proof one way or the other is troubling, but I think Hammerfell would be more likely than the Dominion to not give mercenaries written orders since the Empire controls Whitrun Hold.

      I imagine noblewomoman Saadia could pick a better place to hide out, such as a Stormcloak hold, if it really was the Dominion looking for her. If she did sell out her old city, Whiterun probably felt like more of a home than Hammerfell ever did, so she might have requested that her remains be sent back to Whiterun after her execution.

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    • As a note: I went to Dragonsreach to turn in a bounty quest after turning Saadia over to Kematu at the stables, and one of the guards offhandedly said, "[as if we didn't have enough trouble], now we have mercenaries from Hammerfell running around"

      Does that means Kematu was sent by Hammerfell and not the Thalmor? In which case Kematu was telling the truth and Saadia really did betray Hammerfell to Thalmor.

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    • They could have been sent by anybody, they're just mercenaries based out of Hammerfell.

      My thoughts:

      Why would a Redguard noble on the run from the Thalmor flee to Skyrim, which is under Dominion juridiction, when Hammerfell is independent from the Thalmor? Would she not logically be safer in her home territory? And why would a Redguard mercenary band cooperate with the Thalmor in the first place?

      The Alik'r story is better, I think. If Saadia had betrayed her own people to the Thalmor, it makes sense that she would seek asylum in a Thalmor-controlled territory and not in Hammerfell, where she would be hunted down by the other Redguards.

      Honestly, on my first character, I just didn't do this quest. It seemed too morally ambiguous so I elected to just let them sort it out for themselves

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    • You know what I don't understand?

      If Taneth fell to the dominion, then who is carrying out the execution order once she arrives there after capture? Did the people of Taneth somehow make an extremely convincing argument or plead to their new oppressors to capture this woman - the very person who apparently allowed the Dominion to take Taneth in the first place?

      It seems like both sides are telling the truth to an extent, but that this quest hints at a larger political undertone. Labelling any fictional character "racist" in the 21st century heavily implies "bad guy", but then to also make them the most powerful force in the known universe? It seems like they definitely have both the money and cunning to play both sides.

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    • 110.149.185.205 wrote:
      You know what I don't understand...

      at this point in time the Aldmeri Dominion has signed a truce with Hammerfell and has left the country, so it would be the Redguards again.

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    • My gut told me she was telling the truth, especially after I talked to the prisoner. The prisoner basically sold his boss out after they abandoned him in jail, and said that I was a dead man for even seeking his boss out in the first place. It didn't make me think that these people were very honorable or trustworthy. I fully admit I could be wrong, but I just acted with my gut.

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    • From a role playing perspective not knowing that if I sided with Kematu I'd get jumped by some Altmer later I'd side with Sadia. If the Alikir were really with the nobel house of Taneth then why would they be hiding out with a bunch of bandits in a cave called Swindler's den with no documentation to prove that they are with Hammerfell's Government. That just seemed too fishey to me so their were around 10 or so dead Redguards in Swindlers den in my playthrough.

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    • How come there is no option to just slaughter them both and be done with it then we wouldnt have to worry about who is telling the truth although that option will obviously not appeal to every one but hey this is just me. I probsbly side with no one because they both could be lying and just want to use you as a puppet asfter helping them when the time comes

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    • You can, I've double crossed them both.

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    • I always double cross both of them. That way whoever is really lying dies. Besides I make more gold double crossing them. Decapped both of them. 

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    • The only problem with siding with Sadia is there's a bug on consoles that even after slaughting all of Kematu and his men at Swindlers Den, 2 Alikir's warriors will show up and stay station at the entrance of Whiterun. Unfortunately you can try to be slick and cast fury on both of them and deal with the bounty later if you're caught and have them kill each other. 

      Either way this quest is kinda annoying as there's no clear indication who's right or wrong. It's another quickie quest with no thought process involved by the devs and siding with either seems pointless after the first time. I just go in and kill everyone in swindlers den anyway so for me i couldn't careless but still would be nice for a better indication who's in the right or wrong. 

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    • Ghost Anubis wrote:
      I always double cross both of them. That way whoever is really lying dies. Besides I make more gold double crossing them. Decapped both of them. 

      Yeah, I did that too. I killed kematu, and then saadia was hostile, so I had no choice. (It wasn't murder, she got mad at me for betraying her to a hit man, and then betraying him.)

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    • Easiest way is when Kematu paralyzes Saadia, & then pays you, kill Kematu. Saadia will then get up & be hostile towards you. But you cast pacify on her, she will then not be hostile, you talk to her, & she will pay you also. Because you killed Kematu, then you kill her as well. 

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    • damn talk about triple crossing @_@

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    • Well can't take chances with the redguards

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    • I believe Kametu is telling the truth, because his story made a lot more sense, lore wise. 

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    • I think so too, but just to be safe...

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    • Kamatu or whatever his name is just felt like a douche to me :(

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Kamatu or whatever his name is just felt like a douche to me :(

      a lot of people feel police officers are douchebags, just because they're police officers.

      and that's essentially what the Kemantu and his group were.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Kamatu or whatever his name is just felt like a douche to me :(


      While he may be abrasive when you first encounter him, one should take into account that if Kemantu is telling the truth, Saadia is a traitor who sold out her own countrymen and ran off to escape justice. It's entirely understandable that he would be a little on edge.

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    • Hereticalthoughts wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Kamatu or whatever his name is just felt like a douche to me :(

      While he may be abrasive when you first encounter him, one should take into account that if Kemantu os telling the truth Saadia is a traitor who sold out her own countrymen and ran off to escape justice, it's entirely understandable that he would be a little on edge.

      She is a traitor. A beautiful traitor.

      If you like girls, go with Saadia, if you fancy... curved... swords..., Kematu.

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    • Dro'Jizad wrote:

      She is a traitor. A beautiful traitor.

      If you like girls, go with Saadia, if you fancy... curved... swords..., Kematu.

      We won't really know the truth unless there was an option to investigate the two for real.

      Curved... Swords... Man.. This reminded me of Gamer Poop... X_X

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    • Dro'Jizad wrote:
      Hereticalthoughts wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Kamatu or whatever his name is just felt like a douche to me :(

      While he may be abrasive when you first encounter him, one should take into account that if Kemantu os telling the truth Saadia is a traitor who sold out her own countrymen and ran off to escape justice, it's entirely understandable that he would be a little on edge.
      She is a traitor. A beautiful traitor.

      If you like girls, go with Saadia, if you fancy... curved... swords..., Kematu.

      Siding with Saadia gives you access to curves swords anyway. I just don't think Kematu is telling us everything either. Whether or not saadia is lying isn't known fully as well, but clearly most people would side with the woman since some are pretty defenseless in those times(if your not trained) and easy targets(windhelm incident anyone?). 

      As much as I like Scimitars I don't think they're that good in skyrim

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    • INB4 white knighting:

      I assume you're implying that "in those times" is referring to medieval women in the real world? That's not really valid since women in the world of TES have had more or less the same rights as their male counterparts, no one comments much if you happen to play as a woman warrior at any rate.

      Windhelm was the result of a serial killer who targeted women to take the necessary parts so he could reanimate his dead sister. The fact that his victims were women was largely irrelevant, he just needed the parts.

      The scimitar bit was a joke, by the way.

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    • Whether or not it was a joke didn't matter I just commented about my thoughts on them as a whole in skyrim. 

      As far as the "in those times" I'm talking about women in TES not all of them are warriors and can't really fight or protect themselves. You look at the stormcloak/Imperial/bandits/enemies..etc the male to female ratio is quite high on the males side. Whether this was by design choice on bethesda who knows but i'm merely implying that saadia doesn't know how to defend herself and just a regular person with no talent. Much like farmers who can easily die in 1 hit. I personally like to believe saadia isn't really lying and there is gaps in the whole questline anyway, but more importantly i think kematu isn't telling everything to us anyway. for all we know they could have sent assasins to kill her for just leaving hammerfell to have a better life. who knows though, this quest is one of the many that doesn't make much sense as it wasn't a finished sidequest

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    • I sided with Saddia, and killed the Redguard.  I really wanted "Curved Swords"

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Whether or not it was a joke didn't matter I just commented about my thoughts on them as a whole in skyrim. 

      As far as the "in those times" I'm talking about women in TES not all of them are warriors and can't really fight or protect themselves. You look at the stormcloak/Imperial/bandits/enemies..etc the male to female ratio is quite high on the males side. Whether this was by design choice on bethesda who knows but i'm merely implying that saadia doesn't know how to defend herself and just a regular person with no talent. Much like farmers who can easily die in 1 hit. I personally like to believe saadia isn't really lying and there is caps in the whole questline anyway, but more importantly i think lematu isn't telling everything to us anyway. for all we know they could have sent assasins to kill her for just leaving hammerfell to have a better life. who knows though, this quest is one of the many that doesn't make much sense as it wasn't a finished sidequest

      So your argument is that because Saadia isn't a warrior she's innocent? You don't need to be a master swordswoman to betray someone or something.

      The reason why there are more male enemies than female ones is because Bethesda knows that if there are a lot of female enemies then players will complain about having to kill them due to the way our culture works. (As ridiculous as it is...)

      Soldiers from Hammerfel don't track people down to kill them because they left their homeland, if that were the case then every Redguard who was from Hammerfell would be a target.

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    • I wasn't saying that at all, no where did the words i typed said "saadia isn't a warrior therefor innocent" I'm merely saying because she isn't a fighter she can't defend herself if assasins came to kill her. And because of that(which has 0 to do with this quest) it makes sense she asks us to help her. As I also stated(even finding out some mistakes in my comment) i believe neither Saadia or Kematu are telling the full story there's gaps in this questline that screams half finished. Much like alot of things in skyrim. I honestly don't really know who's right in this quest and bethesda did a terrible job doing so, it was a opportunity wasted. 

      As far as Male to Female warrior ratio, that's a load of nonsense. So your excuse for the high male to female would be because gamers would be upset that we have to kill alot of females because of how our culture works? It's a FREAKING VIDEO GAME! We slaughter people and kill animals on alot of games. Is Peta screaming at us for doing this? No because it's a bit silly and ridiculous for them to bother. I'm not saying making more female to male I'm saying make an equal amount of Male to Female; 50:50  or perhaps 40:60 cause right now it's clear the ratio heavily favors men and that isn't fair imo. 

      As for that last bit, that's precisely why I said there's gaps in this questline they shouldn't have to hire assassins to track down one girl just because of selling her family or whatever out. That's BS and leaves much to questioning. This topic is asking us who's telling the truth and quite honestly i'm incline to say neither are because there's gaps in the quest which makes little sense. With that being said while I'd like to believe saadia is telling the truth and is innocent i'm not sure but the way Kematu does things annoys me so no one wins in this quest and why most people don't do it the next playthroughs. I purposely avoid that quest unless i feel like killing everyone in Swindlers Den. 

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    • Thats why you rip them both off, StealthBlade, as the dead don't tell lies and can't laugh at you.

      I also find that the quest is full of gaps too, but that's pretty much Beth's way of making games, full of plotholes.

      Also, in my current Skyrim playthroughs, anyway, there're tons of female bandits, more than the men, so I guess is just your random bandit generator screwing around. Although there are tons more male guards and soldiers than female ones.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      I wasn't saying that at all, no where did the words i typed said "saadia isn't a warrior therefor innocent" I'm merely saying because she isn't a fighter she can't defend herself if assasins came to kill her. And because of that(which has 0 to do with this quest) it makes sense she asks us to help her. As I also stated(even finding out some mistakes in my comment) i believe neither Saadia or Kematu are telling the full story there's gaps in this questline that screams half finished. Much like alot of things in skyrim. I honestly don't really know who's right in this quest and bethesda did a terrible job doing so, it was a opportunity wasted. 

      As far as Male to Female warrior ratio, that's a load of nonsense. So your excuse for the high male to female would be because gamers would be upset that we have to kill alot of females because of how our culture works? It's a FREAKING VIDEO GAME! We slaughter people and kill animals on alot of games. Is Peta screaming at us for doing this? No because it's a bit silly and ridiculous for them to bother. I'm not saying making more female to male I'm saying make an equal amount of Male to Female; 50:50  or perhaps 40:60 cause right now it's clear the ratio heavily favors men and that isn't fair imo. 

      As for that last bit, that's precisely why I said there's gaps in this questline they shouldn't have to hire assassins to track down one girl just because of selling her family or whatever out. That's BS and leaves much to questioning. This topic is asking us who's telling the truth and quite honestly i'm incline to say neither are because there's gaps in the quest which makes little sense. With that being said while I'd like to believe saadia is telling the truth and is innocent i'm not sure but the way Kematu does things annoys me so no one wins in this quest and why most people don't do it the next playthroughs. I purposely avoid that quest unless i feel like killing everyone in Swindlers Den. 

      You didn't see the reactions to Lara's deaths in the latest Tomb Raider game when it first came out, did you? There was a proverbial shitstorm in a lot of forums regarding Lara's deaths, many of the complaints being along the lines of "It's disturbing to see a girl die." Regardless of what you may think it's pretty common for people to be more disturbed at the sight of women being killed in the media rather than men.

      Kemantu said she sold out her country, not her family. If you're unsure then just slaughter the lot and be done with it to get as much loot and gold as possible out of the deal.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:

      As far as Male to Female warrior ratio, that's a load of nonsense. So your excuse for the high male to female would be because gamers would be upset that we have to kill alot of females because of how our culture works? It's a FREAKING VIDEO GAME! We slaughter people and kill animals on alot of games. Is Peta screaming at us for doing this? No because it's a bit silly and ridiculous for them to bother. I'm not saying making more female to male I'm saying make an equal amount of Male to Female; 50:50  or perhaps 40:60 cause right now it's clear the ratio heavily favors men and that isn't fair imo. 

      The male to female ratio deffinately favors men as the main fighing source, besides bandits, the Companions are mostly male.  The same is true for most RPG's, not just TES.

      Another, more clear view is killing children.  If you hit a child by mistake, they do not die.  People have problems with kids dying so it was taken a step further.

      The fact that Saddia is female could go either way, however.  They may have made her female just to make her look more innocent.  The real question, is what would she have to gain by selling out her city?  If Saddie sold out her city, just to be on the run, she hasn't gained anything.  If Saddie was speaking out against the elves and decided to hide from them, Skyrim would be an awesome place to hide.  They would have agents looking for her all across Hammerfell; Redguard control or not.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
       Much like alot of things in skyrim. I honestly don't really know who's right in this quest and bethesda did a terrible job doing so, it was a opportunity wasted. 

      I like the quest better like this than if they told us which side was right.

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    • Hereticalthoughts wrote:

      You didn't see the reactions to Lara's deaths in the latest Tomb Raider game when it first came out, did you? There was a proverbial shitstorm in a lot of forums regarding Lara's deaths, many of the complaints being along the lines of "It's disturbing to see a girl die." Regardless of what you may think it's pretty common for people to be more disturbed at the sight of women being killed in the media rather than men.

      Kemantu said she sold out her country, not her family. If you're unsure then just slaughter the lot and be done with it to get as much loot and gold as possible out of the deal.

      Considering i haven't played the latest tomb raider yet, and avoided everything about it I have to say thanks for spoiling the game for me smh

      Glad to know people are agreeing with me on the male to female ratio being one sided, btw i'm talking about everywhere in general including city guards. There's definitely more male imperials/stormcloaks, bandits, forsworn..etc than females. Granted you see more female necromancers and rogue mages or whatever around the world but that isn't saying much about overall. 

      Bethesda definitely has a track record of making plot whole quests, maybe i should just assume it's like you starting out in a jail cell. It's a running gag at this point

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    • Can't see how I spoiled anything, it's a game about shooting and survival, it's not as if death should exactly be unexpected and Lara dies when you mess up, surprisingly like a lot of games. (gasp)

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:

      Hereticalthoughts wrote:

      You didn't see the reactions to Lara's deaths in the latest Tomb Raider game when it first came out, did you? There was a proverbial shitstorm in a lot of forums regarding Lara's deaths, many of the complaints being along the lines of "It's disturbing to see a girl die." Regardless of what you may think it's pretty common for people to be more disturbed at the sight of women being killed in the media rather than men.

      Considering i haven't played the latest tomb raider yet, and avoided everything about it I have to say thanks for spoiling the game for me smh

      he didn't spoil it, he's talking about when you're playing and you die to the environment.

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    • Hereticalthoughts wrote:
      Can't see how I spoiled anything, it's a game about shooting and survival, it's not as if death should exactly be unexpected and Lara dies when you mess up, surprisingly like a lot of games. (gasp)

      he thought you meant that lara dies at the end

      • SPOLERS*

      she might

      • SPOILERS*
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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       Considering i haven't played the latest tomb raider yet, and avoided everything about it I have to say thanks for spoiling the game for me smh
      he didn't spoil it, he's talking about when you're playing and you die to the environment.

      Well he never really made it clear, i really thought story events she dies since the TR is supposed to be a reboot of the series. In any case I also can't see the relevance in bringing up gameplay death mechanics when we're discussing the male to female ratio being uneven favoring males. He mentions people would have a hissy fit if females warriors started to become more than males but yet his reasonings behind it was ridiculous, seeing how it's a video game. Peta hasn't attacked gamers or the devs for making killing animals possible. 

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    • Yes it has.

      PETA released a pokemon parody and a cooking mama parody several years ago, and they threw a tantrum about the tanooki suit in mario. They also got upset about the zerg when starcraft 2 was released for some idiotic reason.

      So yeah, peta's gone crazy over video games before.

      We're discussing death mechanics because in a game about stabbing, slashing, bashing, burning, and whatever elseing your way through enemies the male to female ratio of opponents is markedly in favor of males over females. Admittedly this is usually the case and it's not really that bi a deal though.

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    • yea because making parodies using cooking mama and pokemon really means upset. That sounds more like having a sense of humor using games. Should mention pokemon isn't animals per se they're monsters and therefor shouldn't be a reason for peta to jump through hoops yelling at nintendo.  

      Any case i disagree with more males to females not being a big deal, it actually promotes less equal rights in most cases. Sure there are female warriors but lets take it a step further and keep the ration even, especially in nord centered area like skyrim there should be more female warriors realistically than say imperial guards in cryodill which pretty much it's like 90:10 favoring males it would seem if not 100:0, i don't think i've ever seen a female imperial guard in oblivion while playing, pretty messed up that is tbh

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    • Guards are pretty much always female.  We've really gotten off topic, though.  The question would be whether or not Sadia's plot is changed by the fact that she's not battle ready.  And in truth it doesn't change anything; they could have made her a non combat character just to make her seem more trustworthy.

      Once I finish this one, I'm double-crossing everybody next playthrough.  I tried double crossing the Alik'r (a while ago) on this playthrough, and ended up killing Sadia because I lack any pacify skill.  Next time, I'll just get both rewards and then kill them all.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      yea because making parodies using cooking mama and pokemon really means upset. That sounds more like having a sense of humor using games. Should mention pokemon isn't animals per se they're monsters and therefor shouldn't be a reason for peta to jump threw hoops yelling at nintendo.  

      Any case i disagree with more males to females not being a big deal, it actually promotes less equal rights in most cases. Sure there are female warriors but lets take it a step further and keep the ration even, especially in nord centered area like skyrim there should be more female warriors realistically than say imperial guards in cryodill which pretty much it's like 90:10 favoring males it would seem if not 100:0, i don't think i've ever seen a female imperial guard in oblivion while playing, pretty messed up that is tbh

      Peta doesn't exactly have a sense of humor when it comes to parodies dude, especially considering that they're idea of parodies are to show cooking mama as some demon possessed psycho who tortures chickens for fun (cause that's what anyone who cooks with meat does to animals in their mind.)

      They may be monsters, but you have to admit that pokemon are heavily based off of real world animals, which is why peta made a big deal out of the series.

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    • I'll just agree with disagree on that example, i can't see that as them having a big deal.

      Krow Dawnstar wrote:
      Guards are pretty much always female.  

      Now that is incorrect, there are female guards but they're not all female. 

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    • I considered it carefully and made a different decision upon deciding that the evidence points to the idea that both parties are lying through their teeth. I won't repeat what everyone else said already, and so I'll leave it to the points nobody has mentioned. I have a completely different theory.

      Saadia: Upon the dragonborn first mentioning the Alik'r, she behaves oddly and tries to get the dragonborn to murder the Mercenary leader in particular. This is quite odd, because the dragonborn could easily convince Kematu that she fled Whiterun when the warrior got arrested, therefore misdirecting them. However, if her story is true, then murdering Kematu will only help confirm to the Dominion that she is in Whiterun - the mercs they hired randomly die right next to the city.

      Kematu: He claims that she betrayed the House of Hammerfell, and needs to face trial. But if they're there for official business, there should be no need for vagueness whatsoever. If the Alik'r are telling the truth, then they have nothing to hide, and should have been upfront with the Dragonborn, rather than trying to shadily pay her to find the redguard no questions asked. Furthermore, Kematu knew that the Dragonborn was there about Saadia, rather than someone raiding the cave upon seeing a flag and a guard.

      My conclusion: Something weird is going on here. Screw that. I then aggroed three giants from a nearby giants camp, told saadia to come out, then watched as the giants annihilated Saadia, the Alik'r, the stables, and the nearby guards. Clearly this was the most logical option with the evidence given.

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    • Krow Dawnstar wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:

      As far as Male to Female warrior ratio, that's a load of nonsense. So your excuse for the high male to female would be because gamers would be upset that we have to kill alot of females because of how our culture works? It's a FREAKING VIDEO GAME! We slaughter people and kill animals on alot of games. Is Peta screaming at us for doing this? No because it's a bit silly and ridiculous for them to bother. I'm not saying making more female to male I'm saying make an equal amount of Male to Female; 50:50  or perhaps 40:60 cause right now it's clear the ratio heavily favors men and that isn't fair imo. 

      The male to female ratio deffinately favors men as the main fighing source, besides bandits, the Companions are mostly male.  The same is true for most RPG's, not just TES.

      Another, more clear view is killing children.  If you hit a child by mistake, they do not die.  People have problems with kids dying so it was taken a step further.

      The fact that Saddia is female could go either way, however.  They may have made her female just to make her look more innocent.  The real question, is what would she have to gain by selling out her city?  If Saddie sold out her city, just to be on the run, she hasn't gained anything.  If Saddie was speaking out against the elves and decided to hide from them, Skyrim would be an awesome place to hide.  They would have agents looking for her all across Hammerfell; Redguard control or not.

      You made some good points that really made me reconsider my opinion. After some thought, I came up with one possible answer to your question: She probably expected the elves to retain control of the city, in which case she wouldn't have been forced to flee. Only after the elves withrdrew did she have to run. However, it is true though that Whiterun is apparently a great place to hide.

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    • Leopardson wrote:
      I considered it carefully and made a different decision upon deciding that the evidence points to the idea that both parties are lying through their teeth. I won't repeat what everyone else said already, and so I'll leave it to the points nobody has mentioned. I have a completely different theory.

      Saadia: Upon the dragonborn first mentioning the Alik'r, she behaves oddly and tries to get the dragonborn to murder the Mercenary leader in particular. This is quite odd, because the dragonborn could easily convince Kematu that she fled Whiterun when the warrior got arrested, therefore misdirecting them. However, if her story is true, then murdering Kematu will only help confirm to the Dominion that she is in Whiterun - the mercs they hired randomly die right next to the city.

      Kematu: He claims that she betrayed the House of Hammerfell, and needs to face trial. But if they're there for official business, there should be no need for vagueness whatsoever. If the Alik'r are telling the truth, then they have nothing to hide, and should have been upfront with the Dragonborn, rather than trying to shadily pay her to find the redguard no questions asked. Furthermore, Kematu knew that the Dragonborn was there about Saadia, rather than someone raiding the cave upon seeing a flag and a guard.

      My conclusion: Something weird is going on here. Screw that. I then aggroed three giants from a nearby giants camp, told saadia to come out, then watched as the giants annihilated Saadia, the Alik'r, the stables, and the nearby guards. Clearly this was the most logical option with the evidence given.

      LMAO i only ever had 2 giants at one time on me but 3? That's pure funny. 

      You definitely raise good point too which reaffirms bethesda usual method of plotholes in the questlines

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    • Honestly, I don't find Kematu's statement regarding your ruining everything by killing Saadia to be effective evidence of him having a sense of "honor." She was probably just worth more Septims alive than dead.

      Regardless, I don't completely believe either of their stories. My Dunmer doesn't like being lied to, especially if said lies are sugarcoated half-truths. No survivors were left by the Whiterun Stables that day (save for Jervar, Lillith, Skulvar, and Bjorlam, of course).

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    • I side with Saadia so she treats me as a friend when i obtain the ebony blade.

      Nugh said.

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    • My next character is going to sneak to find out what Kematu actually does with Saddie.

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    • You might found out they're going to be doing stuff too much for TV to show lol

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    • Alright, I've read every answer of this thread, trying myself to find out which conclusion would be the most logical. As somebody said already, this is a Beth's bad habit and it is what I hate most while playing their games, finding undetailed quests and spending the whole evening trying to decide... It would've been much easier if there was the right and the wrong (and we so could choose between helping the justice or the criminal), but.. oh well..


      All of you made good points, so I'll just complete the "why to flee?" and "after all efforts you ruined all" parts with my ideas.

      Why would Saadia flee at all? Wheter is she innocent or guilt, she's enemies in her homeland, that's stated. While her escape seems pretty obvious if she really betrayed, someone here said "If Thalmor really took the town, and this was thanks to her, why would she flee?"

      1) Thalmor TRIED to take the town, but they eventually failed and had to retreat, or Hammerfell forces could get the town back after. Redguards discovered she was behind it all and wanted to arrest her. (Tho, this would contradict Kematu's words, who says the town fell to Thalmor's Dominion)

      2) The resistance was able to flee; and despite the noble woman had helped elves to achieve the town's capture, they refused to protect her. (Maybe even kicked her by the town, who knows)

      Afterall, as you already agreed, Elves don't need to apologize or to befriend an human, however, as she's truly a noble woman (and surely rich or owner of useful informations) they used her to get into the town easier and faster.


      What if she is actually innocent? Why should someone that talk bad about aldmeris run away from a country that actually hates aldermis? Infact, almost everyone does, that wouldn't have any sense. However:

      1) We talk about a noble woman, not a paesant or a farmer. Aldermi's dominion was kicked out of the country by the Hammerfell's nobility, since the Empire couldn't help anymore. Killing them once at once in ambushes or with any sneaky way is much easier than in a battle where they put their strenghts together. Plus, it weakens the country for a future battle.

      2) The real traitors may be the other noblemen. Just think about it, we have one guy that claims she's betrayed, but many clues make us feel like he's hiding something. Kematu says that the town is currently a Thalmor territory, and if she didn't help them to resettle, then the others must have done it, while she (being noble herself) may have tried to prevent it. If this is the case, then she's still a threat for them: she's still a powerful noble, she may reveal inconvenient details in a future (Hammerfell is still a country that hates Thalmors, so imagine what could happen if everyone knew about the facts). This would explain some incongruities.


      "But Kematu's an Alik'r, why would he do that?"

      Which proofs do we really have about he being an Alik'r? He doesn't bring any seal, he doesn't reveal too many details, we stated that he could also be trained to persuade people and even in magic. The reason could be that they must hide because skyrim's still exposed to the Empire's influence (and so to aldmeri's one), but the reason could also be:

      1) They aren't Alik'r at all. They mask as such. Thalmor needed an alibi to get their hands over an important noble woman. The Empire signed an armistice, but this doesn't mean that now any aldmeri can arrive and accuse whoever they want, nor they can simply break in the town and kidnap her. Though, they still want to win the war, every silent way is a good way if the resistance can be weakened.

      2) They actually are Alik'r, but they're corrupted, as their mandator is (the noblemen who stand on the side of Thalmor).

      Everything they say could be a commedy, even when they are upset because you kill her while they are bringing her away. The purpose itself (of bringing her away alive) could be a commedy, and once halfway, they would kill her.


      That said, since I'm still on the quest and didn't turn it in yet, I'll check a few things:

      - Hoping that Thalmor's justicars appear, I'll try to bring them inside the cave near the Alik'r. The least that can happen is that they will just stay and watch, or the mercs may have already gone by then.. If they're gone, I'll try to bring them near the stable.

      - I'll follow Alik'r as soon as they depart from stables, I'll check if and when they either disappear with the hostage or kill her. If the second option happens I'll try to get near them and check for any reaction. (but I doubt Beth went so far...)

      - I'll check when exactly the urn is gonna spawn.


      (Sorry for the long reply and for any grammar mistake)

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    • something people don't realize about the war in hammerfell...

      IT IS OVER, AD forces withdrew, they could have conquered the city, then left when the war ended due to The Second Treary of Stros M'Kai.

      So to people asking why she would flee after the Thalmor took the city, it's because they gave it back after the treaty and people knew she was the one who betrayed the city.

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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      something people don't realize about the war in hammerfell...

      IT IS OVER, AD forces withdrew, they could have conquered the city, then left when the war ended due to The Second Treary of Stros M'Kai.

      So to people asking why she would flee after the Thalmor took the city, it's because they gave it back after the treaty and people knew she was the one who betrayed the city.

      There's no evidence poining she betrayed anyone, the quest is full of mistakes bethesda didn't clean up much like people being essential that shouldn't be. 

      She could have left because the war took a toll on her life and wanted a peaceful one somewhere else. Whiterun there's barely stuff going on outside the civil war that's completely pointless and probably not canon either. 

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    • Then there would be no point at all for the Alik'r to be after her then, and no country in Tamriel kills people just for leaving their national borders.

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    • Which presents the whole plothole within this quest; The quest is supposed to show who's not telling the truth and the game gives no direction as to whom it is outside of our perspective. And as many people stated in several parts there's hints that neither Kematu or Saadia are telling the truth. Which is what annoys me and others.  

      It's just easier double crossing both at this point or avoiding this quest entirely. I dislike Kematu in all honesty 

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Which presents the whole plothole within this quest; The quest is supposed to show who's not telling the truth and the game gives no direction as to whom it is outside of our perspective. And as many people stated in several parts there's hints that neither Kematu or Saadia are telling the truth. Which is what annoys me and others.  

      It's just easier double crossing both at this point or avoiding this quest entirely. I dislike Kematu in all honesty 

      If the quest was supposed to tell you who was right and who was lying it would have, that's the beauty of this quest, no matter what you do, you have no way of knowing if YOU are on the right side. Skyrim(and all TES games) aren't on a black and white morality(have you seen any of the Civil war Threads?) everything in the TES universe is either gray or grey, just like in the real world. now stop complaining about not knowing which is the right thing to do and just do what you THINK is right, even if you're wrong.

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    • Um this is a topic and i'm discussing my view point, you can't exactly tell me to stop doing so when i'm adding discussion to the topic. By that logic you may as well close the thread now in that case cause everyone is complaining about it in some fashion, why am I the one being singled out?

      Fact of the matter is this quest has plotholes and is just a missed opportunity among other things in skyrim; Typical Bethesda fashion. Saadia claims someone hired assassins to kill her, Kematu claims she sold out her family or whatever in Hammerfell but both seems to be lying through game dialog hints. Neither seems willing to tell the truth and quite frankly as many suggested it's easier to double cross them and be done with it. That's all. I just responded to the guy above and disagreed with your post before that i don't see the big issue here

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    • StealthBlade98, I actually agree with Pink Slim that the morally ambiguous quests actually add to the games.  I was really frustrated with Fallout 3 because of the black and white karma system -- you can play a hero, a mustache-twirling villain, or a schizophrenic (doing bad or good actions with no apparent motivation either way) but nothing in between.  The morally ambiguous quests let you put more thought into your character's motivations and even give you situations where your character can regret their past choices (more interesting than loading a save IMO).

      That said, I think you're absolutely entitled to register your opinion that the morally ambiguous quests detract.  Just don't expect everyone to agree with you -- some of us think the exact opposite.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Um this is a topic and i'm discussing my view point, you can't exactly tell me to stop doing so when i'm adding discussion to the topic. By that logic you may as well close the thread now in that case cause everyone is complaining about it in some fashion, why am I the one being singled out?

      Fact of the matter is this quest has plotholes and is just a missed opportunity among other things in skyrim; Typical Bethesda fashion. Saadia claims someone hired assassins to kill her, Kematu claims she sold out her family or whatever in Hammerfell but both seems to be lying through game dialog hints. Neither seems willing to tell the truth and quite frankly as many suggested it's easier to double cross them and be done with it. That's all. I just responded to the guy above and disagreed with your post before that i don't see the big issue here

      I'm not saying you're not entitled to your point of view, I'm just saying that your complaining about not having a right/wrong answer is in of itself wrong, it's not a plot hole, it's not a half finished quest, it's not sttupid, it is simply grey/gray instead of black/white, and that is the reason it makes this quest so great, because you don't know whether you are right or wrong.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Um this is a topic and i'm discussing my view point, you can't exactly tell me to stop doing so when i'm adding discussion to the topic. By that logic you may as well close the thread now in that case cause everyone is complaining about it in some fashion, why am I the one being singled out?

      Fact of the matter is this quest has plotholes and is just a missed opportunity among other things in skyrim; Typical Bethesda fashion. Saadia claims someone hired assassins to kill her, Kematu claims she sold out her family or whatever in Hammerfell but both seems to be lying through game dialog hints. Neither seems willing to tell the truth and quite frankly as many suggested it's easier to double cross them and be done with it. That's all. I just responded to the guy above and disagreed with your post before that i don't see the big issue here

      Now now, don't go getting upset that you have a hard choice. This isn't Fable where the choices are usually between "hug cute kittens" or "massacre a village of nuns and orphans for teh ebilz".

      This is a quest that involves the politics of foreign countries so obviously we're not going to get the full picture here, some details are hidden because it took place far from Skyrim and politics by it's very nature is a murky business. The only way to know for certain would be to contact the ruler of Hammerfell directly and get him to explain, and I doubt the king or whatever of the Redguards cares what some shouting guy in Skyrim has to say concerning his countries intrigues.

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    • To be honest..  Both parties could be using the Elves as a scapegoat.  Saddia could have simply crossed another family (or better yet, her own); whom then bribed some rouge Alik'r to kill her.

      Saddia knows a random person in Skyrim has got enough to worry about and probably doesn't care about her.  But pretty much all of Skyrim hates the Dominion, so tell a huge lie about how you're on the run because of those "Dirty Elves."

      Same thing goes for the Alik'r.  Who cares about Hammerfell and it's politics?  Skyrim is being attacked by DRAGONS.  So, if you want some help for your cause..  Leave a few things out, add some spice about the Elves, and get some supporter to give you a hand.

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    • Kill them all and let arkay sort it out

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    • I sided with Saadia. I wanted those scimiters!

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    • Kematu is telling the truth. You are entirely correct in your posted reasons for siding with him. When I play this quest, I side with Kematu.

      Otherwise, I'll just kill both of them anyway. Not because I didn't trust Kematu, mind you. But sometimes, when I look at an innocent npc just standing there minding his own business, I get the compuslive urge to kill them.

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    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      Kematu is telling the truth. You are entirely correct in your posted reasons for siding with him. When I play this quest, I side with Kematu.

      Otherwise, I'll just kill both of them anyway. Not because I didn't trust Kematu, mind you. But sometimes, when I look at an innocent npc just standing there minding his own business, I get the compuslive urge to kill them.

      Remind me not to just stand there minding my own business in front of you.

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    • It was just far too tempting!

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    • You know, it's possible that Kematu is lying. What if the city of Taneth really did fall to the Thalmor? Then, Saadia, as a noble, could have spoken out against the Thalmor, causing the Redguard inhabitents to riot and drive out the Thalmor. Then, the Thalmor would have hired the Alik'r to hunt Saadia down, dead or alive.

      So when Kematu says that the city of Taneth fell because of Saadia, he would have been mixing truths and lies, thus making much more believible lies.

      Genius, eh.

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    • Sounds plausible tbh

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    • I still like the idea to double-cross them.  I had tried it on this playthrough and failed without a calm spell.  I'll be sure to have that calm spell for my next play through

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    • I doubted Kematu just cuz he was hidding out in a swindler's den.

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    • that was also suspicious why was the first half or so of that cave normal bandits then the rest Alikr

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    • I don't think either are telling the full truth, but saadia is probably a traitor because the lore points to that, but I think the alikr are mercs who were hired by a noble house (not thalmor) that wanted her executed for treason and wanted her killed before returning to hammerfall so she would have a trial and possibly imprisoned instead of executed. The reason alikr upset when you kill her is they wanted to kill her away from the city.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      that was also suspicious why was the first half or so of that cave normal bandits then the rest Alikr


      To what I've heard, the bandits will not attack you unless you attack them.  You can walk through there to speak with the Alkir and one of the bandits can be heard complaining about not liking the Alkir's presence there; and another replies to shut up or they'll all end up dead.

      The bandits seem to be a "front" to help hide the Alkir.  They aren't supposed to be operating within Skyrim, after all.

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    • Krow Dawnstar wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      that was also suspicious why was the first half or so of that cave normal bandits then the rest Alikr

      To what I've heard, the bandits will not attack you unless you attack them.  You can walk through there to speak with the Alkir and one of the bandits can be heard complaining about not liking the Alkir's presence there; and another replies to shut up or they'll all end up dead.

      The bandits seem to be a "front" to help hide the Alkir.  They aren't supposed to be operating within Skyrim, after all.

      Indeed, The bandits were just another band of mercenaries hired to secure the enterance of the cave. There were not many Alik'r, so they bolstered their ranks with common rabble.


      They still attack on sight though.

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    • As Copper said the bandits still attack because when you're walking to swindlers den the guy guarding the entrance will warn you to back away and if you walk any close he'll engage in a fight with you. Fighting the bandits is unavoidable IF you do not have muffle and invisibility potions or the spell.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      As Copper said the bandits still attack because when you're walking to swindlers den the guy guarding the entrace will warn you to back away and if you walk any close he'll engage in a fight with you. Fighting the bandits is unavoidable IF you do not have muffle and invisibility potions or the spell.


      Is this even if you are working with the Alkir?  I may be wrong, I killed Kematu outside of Whiterun.  By the time I wandered into swindler's den I didnt really have a good standing with the Alkir so they all attacked me on sight.

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    • The bandits are dumb and don't know much about the Alik'r. They just know they're supposed to guard the cave and do just that. 

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    • Nelthro wrote:
      That face isn't even pretty imo.
      • laughs*
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    • Krow Dawnstar wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      As Copper said the bandits still attack because when you're walking to swindlers den the guy guarding the entrace will warn you to back away and if you walk any close he'll engage in a fight with you. Fighting the bandits is unavoidable IF you do not have muffle and invisibility potions or the spell.

      Is this even if you are working with the Alkir?  I may be wrong, I killed Kematu outside of Whiterun.  By the time I wandered into swindler's den I didnt really have a good standing with the Alkir so they all attacked me on sight.

      You have to fight the bandits regardless but when you meet the Alikr Kematu will intercept and talk to give to give you a choice. I always remembered killing him though. I also bypassed the entire cave once and went up the way you're supposed to leave after meeting the alikr and flanked them. It was great. Killed Kematu in 1 shot with a sneak attack improved bow by flawless. :D

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Krow Dawnstar wrote:
      StealthBlade98 wrote:
      As Copper said the bandits still attack because when you're walking to swindlers den the guy guarding the entrace will warn you to back away and if you walk any close he'll engage in a fight with you. Fighting the bandits is unavoidable IF you do not have muffle and invisibility potions or the spell.

      Is this even if you are working with the Alkir?  I may be wrong, I killed Kematu outside of Whiterun.  By the time I wandered into swindler's den I didnt really have a good standing with the Alkir so they all attacked me on sight.
      You have to fight the bandits regardless but when you meet the Alikr Kematu will intercept and talk to give to give you a choice. I always remembered killing him though. I also bypassed the entire cave once and went up the way you're supposed to leave after meeting the alikr and flanked them. It was great. Killed Kematu in 1 shot with a sneak attack improved bow by flawless. :D

      I just told him right off that bat, then took Sadia out of Whiterun where he would be waiting, and double crossed him and his Alkir.  Still wish I knew the calm spell for this playthrough.

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    • get it then. ;)

      You should be able to get the calm spell from the wizard at dawnstar

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      get it then. ;)

      You should be able to get the calm spell from the wizard at dawnstar


      Oh, I will.  I have it, now, just not when I did her quest.

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    • Windhelm Guard wrote:
      I sided with the with the Alik'r for a few reasons

      Saadia's story had a lot of inconsistencies and I mean a lot. She says that she spoke out against the Thalmor in Hammerfell and they hired assassins to hunt her down. This doesn't make sense, everyone in Hammerfell hates the Thalmor. They had a war with them and no Redguard would ever support the Thalmor lest work for them. The Thalmor have no influence in Hammerfell as the Redguards pushed them out during the war. It wouldn't matter if she spoke out against the Thalmor because literally everyone in Hammerfell hates them already. Also knowing the Thalmor, she would have been dead already if she was really being hunted by them.

      Kematu's story makes way more sense than Saadia's. His side of the story is that she sold out a city of Hammerfell (I can't remember which one) and because of that it fell during the war causing hundreds if not thousands to lose there lives. If you side with the Alik'r, later on there is a possibility that you will be attacked by Thalmor Justiciars with and execution order. Why is that? It is probably because you helped the Alik'r find someone they were protecting. I just have a gut feeling that Kematu is telling the truth, his story seems to make a lot more sense than Saadia's. Most Redguards that you meet in the game seem to be honorable people and I feel that Kematu is no different. They have no reason to help the Thalmor, all Redguards hate the Thalmor with a passion because of the war. 

      Just a side note: If you read the article about the Great War and get to the section telling about how the Thalmor were pushed back across the Alik'r desert it states that they were harrassed by Alik'r warriors the whole way. I doubt the Thalmor would go looking to them for help rather than just doing it themselves.

      I'd like to know which side you guys picked and why. Also if you have evidence of one side being right and the other being wrong post that too!

      You just said your own proof... Saadia's story is basically a tiny plothole in relation of the Thalmor & Hammerfell. Kematu's, on the other hand, not only it sounds solid, but it's also confimed in their repsective lore.

      So, the real question is, why did you even take Saadia's story into consideration in the first place?

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    • U.F.B. wrote:

      You just said your own proof... Saadia's story is basically a tiny plothole in relation of the Thalmor & Hammerfell. Kematu's, on the other hand, not only it sounds solid, but it's also confimed in their repsective lore.

      So, the real question is, why did you even take Saadia's story into consideration in the first place?

      Saddia's got somthing Kematu does dot :)

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    • There is another factor against Saadia that I dont think has been mentioned. Just up the hill from the bar there is a guy who daily denounces the Thalmor as loudly as he can and they haven't killed him. Teh Thalmor must not care that much or else he jarl must be protecting him, and if he is protecting him, why not protect Saadia as well? At the party the Jarl from Morthal talks crap about the Thalmor right in front of them, they know everyone hates them.

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    • Kefke Wren wrote:
      There's an encounter you can get on the way to Whiterun from Riverwood, where a pair of Alik'r warriors are harrassing a Redguard woman on the road. It seems trivial, but something to consider - They don't draw their swords, and they let her go the moment they realize that she's the wrong woman. This, combined with the fact that Kematu uses a paralysis spell, and the fact he's willing to talk rather than simply have his men (who clearly outnumber you) torture you for information, suggests that the Alik'r are not the viscious cutthroats you've been led to believe. They show every intent of capturing Saadia, not killing her.

      As to her burial urn appearing in the hall of the dead, I see three added possibilities.

      1. There was a real Saadia, who the fugitive Iman took the place of.

      2. Saadia/Iman herself left an urn there - or arranged for it to be left - to fake her death and throw off pursuers before you left the city to make your "escape".

      3. The Alik'r had her ashes sent back (or a false urn) as a kindness after she was taken for trial, since it is better to know someone is dead than to worry what has happened to them (and it would also ensure no other allies she may have made attempt to rescue her).


      Also, there's the fact that the Alik'r work openly, opperating undisguised and in broad daylight, making no secret of what they are doing. That's behaviour more in line with a police opperation. Assassins would want to be as covert as possible, lest someone track the killing back to them.

      Excellent point.

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    • Kefke Wren wrote:
      There's an encounter you can get on the way to Whiterun from Riverwood, where a pair of Alik'r warriors are harrassing a Redguard woman on the road. It seems trivial, but something to consider - They don't draw their swords, and they let her go the moment they realize that she's the wrong woman. This, combined with the fact that Kematu uses a paralysis spell, and the fact he's willing to talk rather than simply have his men (who clearly outnumber you) torture you for information, suggests that the Alik'r are not the viscious cutthroats you've been led to believe. They show every intent of capturing Saadia, not killing her.

      As to her burial urn appearing in the hall of the dead, I see three added possibilities.

      1. There was a real Saadia, who the fugitive Iman took the place of.

      2. Saadia/Iman herself left an urn there - or arranged for it to be left - to fake her death and throw off pursuers before you left the city to make your "escape".

      3. The Alik'r had her ashes sent back (or a false urn) as a kindness after she was taken for trial, since it is better to know someone is dead than to worry what has happened to them (and it would also ensure no other allies she may have made attempt to rescue her).


      Also, there's the fact that the Alik'r work openly, opperating undisguised and in broad daylight, making no secret of what they are doing. That's behaviour more in line with a police opperation. Assassins would want to be as covert as possible, lest someone track the killing back to them.


      They are not allowed within Whiterun.  They could easily be lying to get you to help them. 

      Them outnumbering you does not matter; I cleared them out rather easily.

      As far as her urn appearing, we have yet gotten anybody to check whether or not it is there before she dies.  Also, we need to hide and watch what happens once Saadia wakes up.  A high sneak character would be needed for this so they may be followed without notice.

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    • Well, I just ran this one for the first time with my Orsimer Champion of Molag Bal, and the truth is, he didn't care about any of the political machinations. Sure, he hates the Thalmor and kills them on sight (gonna make sneaking into the embassy tough, I wonder if he's about to become Skyrim's most wanted criminal?). Sure, he's been known to help out a fellow warrior once in awhile, just because he respects those with the courage to shed blood for what they believe in. Sure, the Aliki'r are most likely telling the truth since they'd never side with the Thalmor... but here's the thing. The Champion of Molag Bal likes fighting. Like, alot. A group of warriors surrounding him with scimitars drawn; he's outmatched, outnumbered... it's too good to pass up. Collecting souls for Molag Bal is much more fun than choosing sides based on notions of "right and wrong."

      He'll get back to killing Thalmor soon enough. For now, Aliki'r heads are rolling.

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    • My opinion? Both sides are lying and teling the truth. When lying you always want to sprinkle your story with a bit of the truth to make it sound more believable, and I believe Kematu is the type to know that and can make his stories flow perfectly while Saadia gets the idea, just can't keep cool to make it work, explaining any incosistencies. I really don't feel like getting into this anymore so i'll end it by saying I play my Dragonborn as one that'd want to be on the safe side, take out Kematu in case him and his boys are Thalmor Asassins, and kill Saadia in case she really did betray her people. You can never be too careful. 

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    • I've finally got it, Saadia is telling the truth. I know this because the Alikr say that they are going to take her back to hammerfell for a trial but why is her burial urn in the hall of the dead?

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    • 173.51.102.115 wrote:
      I've finally got it, Saadia is telling the truth. I know this because the Alikr say that they are going to take her back to hammerfell for a trial but why is her burial urn in the hall of the dead?

      She tried to flee but got killed?

      Many the transport got to close too a giant camp etc.

      Skyrim holds many dangers, some deadly.

      If they just wanted her dead they would have buried her in a ditch somewhere not take her remains to be cremated and put in an urn.

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    • The only thing that even comes close to making me doubt Kematu's story is that paralysis spell. Redguards hate magic. And this is an expert-level Alteration spell we're talking about, here. It's not like he just cast Flames or something. Although I suppose he could have been using a scroll?

      However, there's just too much evidence to say that Saadia's telling the truth. If anyone's in the right, it's the Alik'r. The roadside encounter is a big hint. They don't seem like assassins. They seem flustered, almost desperate, and while they're a bit rude about it, they do let the random Redguard woman go. And no, they're not acting for the Dragonborn's benefit. There's no real way for them to know that the random passerby has anything to do with their situation.

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    • Eh, could be that some redguard specialists utilize magic for certain tasks to be more effective, just because Redguards generally hate magic doesn't mean that they all avoid it like the plague.

      That said, I tend to lean towards the Alik'r as well, if they're bandits or assassins they're pretty terrible at their job, but if they're actually a police force then it makes more sense.

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    • Well I know it doesn't stand for much but with a lair called swindler's den and bandit companions they lose some credibility to me xD.

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    • I can't completely believe Kematu when he can tell me they are just going to take Saadia back to Hammerfell to stand, only to just end up immediately killing her anyway. Fighting the Redguard was a pain, to the point on my first playthrough I ended up initially agreeing to assist Kematu, until it was revealed that he was just going to kill her anyway.

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    • Zeta1127,89thLegion wrote:
      I can't completely believe Kematu when he can tell me they are just going to take Saadia back to Hammerfell to stand, only to just end up immediately killing her anyway. Fighting the Redguard was a pain, to the point on my first...

      He doesn't kill her, though? He hits her with a paralysis spell. In fact, if you kill her, then he gets mad. 

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    • I don't know, its been a while since I did that quest to the point, so my recollections are probably a little foggy.

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    • It may be a little stupid, but I sided with Kematu until I saw that he kills the two stable workers before you arrive there with Saadia. At that point, I didn't care. He just murdered two stable workers and deserved to die.

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    • 173.59.107.178 wrote:
      It may be a little stupid, but I sided with Kematu until I saw that he kills the two stable workers before you arrive there with Saadia. At that point, I didn't care. He just murdered two stable workers and deserved to die.

      He didn't kill the stable workers.

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    • so, i found another point against saadia: first she is like OH MY GOSH THEY ARE HERE?! and then she said: one of them is in prison...

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    • I'm pretty sure that Saadia's urn only appears if you kill her.

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    • Last time I did this quest I just killed everyone. Can't risk any thalmor doing anything but dying or submitting to imperials.

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    • Psychotic-Muffin
      Psychotic-Muffin removed this reply because:
      Accidentally made it as a reply. :P
      23:01, July 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Psychotic-Muffin
      Psychotic-Muffin removed this reply because:
      Wtf, it happened again.
      23:02, July 25, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Ok, 2 important things. 

      1st. If you decide to turn Saadia to Kematu he will cast some spell on her and you think she will be brought back to Hammerfel for a fair trail. Well, wrong since you will find urn with her ashes in Whiterun if u choose Kematu over Saadia. (So they killed her and she wasnt given a trial. Conclusion - Kematu lied)

      2nd. In my playthrough I still didnt do Embasy quest.And i didnt do any quest minor or major to upset Thalmor.I helped Saadia nad killed Kematu and his mercenaries. But, while wandering wilds a gropus of Thalmor Justicars attacked me on sight and one of them had a letter with my name . (that i should be killed on sight blabla) So, only thing i have done to piss Thalmor is that i killed Kematu and helped Saadia. Thats enough proof for me that Thalmor and Kematu's Alkirs were working together. 

      3rd . Not so imoprtant but it is my quess. That Alkir in prison. I think he was sent to asassinate her but he was cought. Why else he would be arrested, he was probably sneaking arround at night or something. Other Alkirs at the gate are not being arrested. That one (prisoner) was doing something against the law and he was cought.

      In my opinion, Saadia is telling the truth.

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    • Based on the dialogue, i'd say Kematu is probably telling the truth, but it's purposely vague because that's how Bethesda does things.  However, i'm going to help Saadia because the player i'm rping as would fall for a pretty face (I'm playing an Eragon-like character, and there's no way he would help Kematu after talking to Saadia.  Mainly because Eragon's actually a bit of an idiot. XD).

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    • 69.210.139.152 wrote:
      Based on the dialogue, i'd say Kematu is probably telling the truth, but it's purposely vague because that's how Bethesda does things.  However, i'm going to help Saadia because the player i'm rping as would fall for a pretty face...

      Pretty sure Eragon's a sociopath too, considering how he acted towards Sloan and the kid soldier in one scene.

      At any rate, I'm fairly certain Kematu's telling the truth, or at least the biggest part of it.

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    • Even if he was, he's still acts like a douche towards the player where as Saadia seems nice about it and wants a peaceful life. Maybe her selling out her family was for the best :P

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Even if he was, he's still acts like a douche towards the player where as Saadia seems nice about it and wants a peaceful life. Maybe her selling out her family was for the best :P

      Well, you can't expect him to be butter up to your character, can you?

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    • True, Kematu isn't there for niceties, he and his Alik'r have a job to do and nothing else. Saadia is trying to seem overly nice and trying to seem innocent to the player to get him to side with her. But anyone that has read the lore on the Great War can tell she is the one lying. Her story just doesn't make any sense when you take into account what the outcome of the Hammerfell x Dominion war was.

      PS.: If she was trying to hide from the Thalmor then the safest place would be in Hammerfell, the Thalmor aren't allowed in Hammerfell. While they are allowed in Skyrim. Why would she ever come to Skyrim, where there are Thalmor, to hide from the Thalmor? That doesn't make any sense. So either she is stupid or she is lying through her teeth.

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    • (Wow, this thread is not dead!)

      Yeah, the comments above managed to poke many holes in Saadia's story. I always double cross them for cash tho...

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    • Well it's not like Saadia is roaming the wilds of skyrim she's at Whiterun. And the thalmor doesn't exactly come waltzing in regularly. They're busy trying to keep the imperials and stormcloaks fighting an endless war to crush both of them when the time comes. I can't imagine why they would care for one insignificant female in there grand scheme of things :P

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    • Well its simple pick who you trust

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    • Way I see it, you've got a group of warriors tracking down a single maiden who doesn't know how to fight. If Kematu side is right, why are so many people after her? It would be much easier for a single skilled merc to track her down and bring her in. Instead there's a bunch of armed men hiding with bandits looking for her. Why all this for a simple food vendor? She clearly doesn't know how to fight, as she draws a dagger when confronting the dragonborn, regardless of euqipment s/he is wearing. 

      Another point I wanna share is the fact that Kematu's men may not attack, but if he really were any kind of trustworthy, he'd have his men sheathe their weapons. Instead, they stand at the ready very threateningly. Who should I believe more? A woman scared for her life, only drawing a dagger when she feels cornered, or a bunch of thugs who pretty much ambush you. Hm... I wonder...

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    • 108.93.76.20 wrote: Way I see it, you've got a group of warriors tracking down a single maiden who doesn't know how to fight. If Kematu side is right, why are so many people after her? It would be much easier for a single skilled...

      A simple rebuttal: when police catch a criminal, do they go alone? Do they go unarmed and wait for the criminal to hit them first? Would they sheath their weapons if an armed accomplice walks to them?

      The answer to all three is no, unless it's a dumb police officer.

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    • 108.93.76.20 wrote:
      Way I see it, you've got a group of warriors tracking down a single maiden who doesn't know how to fight. If Kematu side is right, why are so many people after her? It would be much easier for a single skilled...

      I ain't stopping for no wuss. If they're from a land of fighters and they suck at fighting, not my problem.

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    • Datadragon Odahviing wrote:

      108.93.76.20 wrote: Way I see it, you've got a group of warriors tracking down a single maiden who doesn't know how to fight. If Kematu side is right, why are so many people after her? It would be much easier for a single skilled...

      A simple rebuttal: when police catch a criminal, do they go alone? Do they go unarmed and wait for the criminal to hit them first? Would they sheath their weapons if an armed accomplice walks to them...

      To add to that, just because the suspect appears to be unarmed, doesn't mean they're actually unarmed. This is especially true in a high magic setting like the Elder Scrolls series, where your average peasant can shoot fire out of his or her hands if they so desire.

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    • I am going with the Alik'r.  They just seem more trustworthy and likable.  Saadia is just a barmaid.  Not to mention that one of the ingame books say that the Domionion was harassed by the Alik'r across the deserts in Hammerfell

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    • There's no evidence that Saadia as any skills at fighting. You need some competence at magic or fighting skills to make it in the world. As a warrior. Even picking up a dagger or sword doesn't mean you're skilled using it. Otherwise we'd see alot more farmers using spells and other weapons when vampires or wolves appear rather than run away. 

      Saadia could have gotten a ride out with someone and left for a new better life. Simply put selling out her family, if that's the excuse Alik'r is going for, isn't enough to justify capturing her. The quest is a bit broken due to Bethesda's laziness. I simply don't think Kematu is trustworthy even if he were telling the truth and Saadia is lying, i'd side with her due to how Kematu acts towards everyone even dragonborn. 

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    • The point is not whether Saadia can fight or not. The point is that there's a possibility she might fight back, which is why the Alikr would have to keep their guard up. With mages, as Heretical thoughts has pointed out, someone could (not would) attack you with magic even if they look unarmed. One does not take chances.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      There's no evidence that Saadia as any skills at fighting. You need some competence at magic or fighting skills to make it in the world. As a warrior. Even picking up a dagger or sword doesn't mean you're skilled using it. Otherwise we'd see alot more farmers using spells and other weapons when vampires or wolves appear rather than run away. 

      Saadia could have gotten a ride out with someone and left for a new better life. Simply put selling out her family, if that's the excuse Alik'r is going for, isn't enough to justify capturing her. The quest is a bit broken due to Bethesda's laziness. I simply don't think Kematu is trustworthy even if he were telling the truth and Saadia is lying, i'd side with her due to how Kematu acts towards everyone even dragonborn. 

      So you don't trust him just because of his atitude?


      You do know that he sort of has a job to do, so playing nice isn't always #1?

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      There's no evidence that Saadia as any skills at fighting. You need some competence at magic or fighting skills to make it in the world. As a warrior. Even picking up a dagger or sword doesn't mean you're skilled using it. Otherwise we'd see alot more farmers using spells and other weapons when vampires or wolves appear rather than run away. 

      Saadia could have gotten a ride out with someone and left for a new better life. Simply put selling out her family, if that's the excuse Alik'r is going for, isn't enough to justify capturing her. The quest is a bit broken due to Bethesda's laziness. I simply don't think Kematu is trustworthy even if he were telling the truth and Saadia is lying, i'd side with her due to how Kematu acts towards everyone even dragonborn. 

      Okay, let's say Saadia doesn't have any form of combat capability. Let's say that in terms of her ability to directly harm the Alik'r and Dragonborn that she's about as threatening as a mud crab.

      That doesn't really matter.

      Saadia is not being accused of being some sort of super terrorist, she's not being accused of mass murder or of blowing someone's house up with magic. She's being accused of treason and espionage, she is being accused of selling out her countrymen to the Thalmor whom they were at war with, you do not need to be able to sling spells or swing a battle axe around to do some damage on a social level. Just say the right/wrong thing at the right/wrong time and boom, you've potentially done more damage than any amount of meat heads with clubs or basement dwellers with lightning bolts could accomplish. (btw again you're wrong on the scale, it's not her family she sold out, it's her country. Learn the difference.)

      Also you've kinda got wonky motivations if the only reason you'd side with Saadia is because Kematu wasn't your best friend from the get go.

      On the subject of it being suspicious that they are multiple Alik'yr members out to arrest Saadia:

      Skyrim is a vast amount of territory to cover, with it's dozens of old forts, villages, several holds/counties, and the large numbers of people there. To add to that, there's this little matter of a civil war going down between the largely inefficient, weaksauce Empire and the ultra conservative pseudo-KKK Stormcloaks, in which either side is still a loser in some aspect or another even if they do win. Trying to send one guy to search for one chick in that mess is gonna take a very, very long time if it succeeds at all. Hence, they sent a squad to Skyrim for several reasons.

      1. Speed: You can cover a much larger amount of ground at a much faster rate if a group is looking around than if you were one or two guys.

      2. Safety: It's much safer to travel in a war torn land with monsters on the roads if you're in a group of capable people than if you were one guy.

      3. Efficiency: Consider that even after you catch your target, you have to transport her from Skyrim, through either the seas or Cyrodil, then through parts of Hammerfell to the capitol to face a trial. To add to this, your target obviously is not willing to go, and will look for every possible chance to escape. It's simply easier to move your target without a big chance of her running off if there's multiple hands to keep her in check.

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    • Datadragon Odahviing wrote:
      The point is not whether Saadia can fight or not. The point is that there's a possibility she might fight back, which is why the Alikr would have to keep their guard up. With mages, as Heretical thoughts has pointed out, someone could (not would) attack you with magic even if they look unarmed. One does not take chances.

      Well I don't recall her ever showing any means of fighting back. When you side with Kematu he paralyzes her and take her away. Granted this may be because he views her as a threat but it could also be because they asked her to take her alive. Even still your comment still makes little sense: whether or not she will fight back doesn't matter if she can't fight at all. It's like a farmer struggling to get himself free only to be killed by people using him to collect a bounty. 

      Simply put the quest is broken no matter how you slice it. Both sides are clearly not telling the complete story here, and whether or not she did sell her family to the Thalmor wouldn't she be doing the right thing there in her eyes? No point dying to an enemy more powerful than her and just agreeing to help. She clearly doesn't want to be involved with any of that nonsense so she leaves. She clearly can't fight so whether she might is irrelevant. 

      Treason and Espionage? LOL treason maybe but she's not that smart to use Espionage, that fits the thalmor more than her. If the Alik'r and Kematu was more forth coming and likeable than I can see where we should trust him. Coming up and having your men try to kill you before you meet him and he asks for help isn't the way to go. The quest is lazily done in my eyes, not as much as the civil war though. 

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    • Again, you're using this weird idea that he paralyzed her because he thinks she's a threat when the reason could be very simple: he doesn't want to have to deal with her constantly struggling and trying to run away. I assume that you understand it's easier to deal with a captive if they're bound in some manner than if you try some sort of honor system where if you ask politely enough they'll promise not to escape. This isn't about her fighting back, because in case you haven't noticed there's this thing that most people can do called running.

      ...What kind of insane troll logic are you using here? She was a noblewoman in a position of political power and authority, she probably had a small army of guards for her own use and she was surrounded by her allies in the form of the other Redguards, granted things weren't easy for them and the Thalmor were doing their damndest to beat them down, but that doesn't change the fact that she sold out her country to save her own skin. She commited treason and should be treated like the snake she is.

      1.) She committed treason when she sold out her country.

      2.) She committed espionage when she did it in a covert manner, by giving the Thalmor information vital to the Redguards' defenses. If you can't understand that then I don't know what to say to you.

      3.) "Waaaaah the alik'r aren't telling me everything as soon as we meet and aren't my fweinds! Big doodie heads!"

      4.) Neither is threatening someone with a knife simply for saying that the redguards asked them to look for a fugitive in Skyrim. I guess Saadia is okay though since she's pretty and asked nicely after putting it away.

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    • As i just mentioned two possible reasons why he, Kematu, paralyzed Saadia:

      1 Because he didn't want to risk a chance of her attack or running 

      2. Because they asked him to take her Alive to be trialed back at Hammerfell. 

      Even if she could run i doubt she'd get far when there's 10+ Alik'r Warriors in Skyrim looking for her. She'd either be captured first or be killed by a giants, wolves, Necromancers, Vampires, Bandits, Bears, Sabre Cats .....etc so she has no chance of escaping alive so paralyzing her makes it so she can't die that easily. 

      Even if she did hold that power as a noble that doesn't mean she wants any part of Thalmor coming in and clearly made a bargain with Thalmor to keep her safe. I'm not saying this was the right choice, i mean after all last I checked Titus Mede II also made a deal with the Thalmor too which some in game people thought it was for the best while fans after looking deep within the lore realized he screwed himself and the imperials big time with that. 

      Saadia probably got scared and ask for protection if she sold out her family while this still fits within treason it doesn't fit with espionage. 

      However it's clear the questline is Lazily, slopply, done with Bethesda. Both Kematu and Saadia are withholding information during that quest to really make a good informed choice. On one side players would side with Saadia and she appears to be a weak and afraid of assassins and Kematu tells a story despite the fact he tried to kill us before getting to him.  I think we can both say they're hiding stuff and both are douches and leave it at that. I'd rather side with Saadia as she's the lesser of two evils for me, we have no real information on what happened at that time or reason as to why she did it. Maybe Thalmor threatened her loved one or something and she made a choice that was against her people. 

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    • When you follow her to her room, she explains that she is wanted by the Thalmor, but she then goes on to say that the Alik'r want to take her back to Hammerfell where she will be executed. Now, Hammerfell drove out the Thalmor years before the events of Skyrim (including this quest) take place. So, whoever wants her head in Hammerfell probably does not belong to the Thalmor, because it does not make sense for the Thalmor to take her away from a province they have Justiciars in and to take her halfway across Tamriel to a place where they don't even have Justiciars.

      And for those who believe the Thalmor would resort to using mercenaries: why would they? I think you're overestimating their ruthlessness and underestimating their arrogance. The Thalmor openly humiliate Nords and patrol the roads of Skyrim. They hunt, abduct, rape (it's alluded from time to time) and murder Talos worshippers and other dissidents wherever they go. They don't care what Nords, Redguards and Imperials think of them, and considering that Whiterun is initially held by a jarl who has accepted the terms of the White-Gold Concordat (through intimidation and bribery, but still), they'd be welcome to just march into Whiterun and take whoever they wanted to take. Including, of course, a 'lowly barmaid'.

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    • I agree, although not sure if this is coincidence or not if you side with Kematu during that quest there's a possibility of Thalmor Justiciars coming after you with a letter saying to attack the player as he's disrupting thalmor busines or something. Saadia leaving her country to come skyrim has to be a different reason, as to why that random event with the thalmor happens after that quest i'm not sure. There's just not enough information to make a decision that's based off right or wrong. Bethesda were definitely lazy with designing this quest or purposely designed it as ambiguous or open to how we feel like it at the time. Maybe there isn't a right or wrong decision maybe both are right choices lol. 

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    • A while ago, I helped Saadia without a second thought because I had ulterior motives -- I wanted to marry her with my reguard. Then I found out she wasn't a candidate for marriage and then I lost all interest in her. Now that I'm playin the game again and the choice has come back, I questioned the questline and came here to see what other people thought. After examination, I thought about a few things...

      1) If the Thalmor sent assassins after Saadia, then they know she's in Skyrim. Why is Kematu and his gang the only "assassins" that roam to find Saadia throughout the whole game? If Saadia is a target for the Thalmor -- and even if she isn't a high priority -- wouldn't there be regular assassin patrols sweeping around Skyrim to find her? Why would they just stop trying to kill her after the Alik'r are dispatched?

      2) If Saadia is running from the Aldmeri Dominion, why did she take residence in Skyrim, where the Thalmor's presence has become widely known? Staying in Stormcloak regions defintely prevents the Thalmor from finding her easily, however, why does she stay in Whiterun even if you side with the Imperials during the Civil War? Seeing as the Thalmor are involved with the Imperials, Saadia would be in more risk than ever if she was truly a target for the Thalmor.

      Unfortunately I don't know all of the lore, I never get around to reading the books in the game like I want to, however, Hammerfell is a long ways away from Skyrim, and the Aldmeri Resistance aren't an "official" order, to my knowledge, no resistance is. They're generally a band of people that "resist." So it would make sense that they don't have any official seals or anything. I can't remember, and I wish someone could tell me, but does the Dragonborn ever specifically mention Kematu's name, or does Saadia automaticaly know his name? If she doesn't, how would she know the name of a random group of assassins sent by the Thalmor? This is me just assuming, but could it be that she knows Kematu from Hammerfell and his role in the resistance? Anyways, back to looking at facts:

      3) As people have seen, Kematu is angry if you kill Saadia. And if you don't kill Saadia, they've said that her ashes could be found in Whiterun, implying that Kematu indeed did just kill her himself. However, I would think that ashes would mean she'd been cremated. Which would also imply that her body was redily available at a funeral home (or the Skyrim equivalent) to be cremated. If she were just picked off moments after being released into Kematu's custody, I wouldn't think that they would just leave her body lying around, and I also don't think the Thalmor would send her ashes back to Whiterun if the Alik'r delivered her to them. On the other hand, if she did indeed face trial in Hammerfell and was found guilty, then execution and cremation would seem plausible, and because she was a traitor and/or living in Whiterun, it would make sense for them to send the remains back.

      This is all just thinking things over. I would find it hard to believe that A) Kematu left the body lying around for anyone to find it and cremate it. B) The Thalmor would have the decency to cremate and send her ashes back to her home. I can't find any reasoning for the imprisoned Alik'r. Maybe he tried sneaking in to scope out the city and was caught, which prompted the guards to deny entry to the rest of them. A bit more on Hammerfell being a long ways away: it would make sense for there to be no Alik'r warriors looking for Saadia after dispatching them, because Hammerfell is so far away I'd imagine it would take ages for another group to arrive. Who knows, but now I think I'll side with the Alik'r!


      -Edit- After telling Saadia that the Alik'r were coming for her (Lie), she seemed oddly irritated and angry instead of worried. "After all this, I have to pick up and leave?!" in a rather rude tone. If I would in fear of my life from the Thalmor, I would be a bit more scared and ready to receive help.

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    • The truth is the both side are lying for sure: kematu is lying about bringing saadia to the court of justice, because you will find her ashes later and saadia herself is probably lying about the story behind her runaway or bethesda messed with this quite a bit. The right choice is to help saadia or to kill both, receiving 1k gold, IMO.

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    • If you side with Kematu you are hunted by the Thalmor suggesting that Saadia was more important then either side lets on but at the same time she is exposed and therefor her usefulness as a spy or whatever are expired and helping her would waste valuble resources needed for controling the empire or whatever plan they have and tactically they shouldn't be bothering to help useless resources unless she was still in use. Had she been active as a spy she would of moved around alot especially in the west of skyrim but she is setteled in Whiterun again proving her uselessness to the Thalmor.

      However this could be another possiblity, Saadia first spoke against the Thalmor then sold the city out as another person. She then fled to the area where the Thalmor have the least influence. Kematu and his gang were then hired by the Thalmor to hunt her down realizing her first action. Due to her previous actions Saadia hid in Whiterun due to it's neutrality in the war.(Choice 1) When the protagonist turns Saadia in and the Thalmor pay Kematu a misunderstanding causes them to believe the protagonist hindered the process and decide to hunt him/her down. The Thalmor decide that sending her back to her home wouldn't get anything done and decide to kill her then and there. (Choice 2) When the Protagonist kills Kematu, his gang scatters and evidence of your involvement disappear and they have little choice but to let her go. When the Thalmor embassy is raided the Thalmor start to explore that the blades were involved in both messes and the two factions rivalry grows as they now know who destroyed the possibility of catching Saadia and try to punish you for both actions.

      So really in this sense the Thalmor are more aware of Saadia's actions then her homeland is and is really no winning move against the Thalmor here. Although i could be wrong in my belief as most of the stuff is stated is unproven and their might be even more possiblities that are more belivable then mine

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    • Y'know, I always sided with the Alik'r because Kematu's story sounded more like the truth. It wasn't until I read this forum that I realized how little thought I actually put into it. Obviously, Bethesda wanted to make this quest one where a truly informed decision didn't exist; one that made you decide based your knowledge of what happened in the past and the parties involved (or who your gut tells you is right).

      Both sides make good arguments in favour of Saadia or Kematu, but with a (probably deliberate) lack of hard evidence either way, there is no way of knowing who is lying and who is telling the truth.

      As people have said, mercenaries are known for their loyalty to the highest bidder. Kematu, who is obviously trained in this line of work, could easily be lying through his teeth, and it would not surprise me if the Thalmor thought it through enough to use the Alik'r to hunt her down and not give them something of a warrant for her capture. (Giving them a warrant or sending justiciars would arouse unneeded suspicion, after all.)

      However, Kematu's reaction to the Dragonborn killing Saadia is indicative that they did want to take her to the intended destination alive. (Be it somewhere for them to later kill her, to hand her over to the Thalmor, or to take her back to Hammerfell is something one can only speculate.) 

      Her knowledge of the Alik'r presence of Whiterun aside, the Redguards are known to hate the Thalmor, so speaking out against them wouldn't be uncommon, especially when there is little cause for concern regarding repercussions. Also, who would be a better asset to the Dominion as a spy than a noble? They are privy to higher quality information than a commoner, and therefore increasing the chances for a successful siege. And on a side note, why would someone that fears the Thalmor flee to Skyrim? Somewhere that, despite the civil war, was still part of the Empire, who is in somewhat of an alliance with the Thalmor, at her time of arrival.

      Speaking of the Aldmeri Dominion, it is debatable as to whether or not they'd see Saadia as big enough of a liability to go through the trouble of hiring a group of third-party mercenaries to hunt her down. She is, after all, in a territory where her presence as a threat is hardly worth the effort. That said, the Thalmor aren't exactly known to let anyone that may cause problems just go free.

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    • If the Thalmor wanted to get rid of her, they would probably just send their own agents, after all, they already abducted the one guy in clan Gray-Mane from Whiterun, and unless Whiterun has been Stormcloakified, the guards would help the Thalmor for free, be able to operate within the city, and not arouse suspicion. In addition, fleeing from Hammerfell to Skyrim to avoid the Thalmor is like fleeing from Britain to Vichy France to avoid the Third Reich (unless Whiterun has been conquered by the Stormcloaks by the time of starting the quest).

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    • The Empire doesn't like the Thalmor any more than the Stormcloaks do. The fact that they play dumb when pressed about Talos worship, and consistently talk about keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim and preparing for the next war should be evidence enough.

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    • Killed Kematu on my Imperial, never doing it again. Stupid Alik'r Warriors just randomly standing in Whiterun. I'm glad I helped them on every other of my characters, aside from my Mage, where they were both killed.

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    • Saadia's excuse is that she's being hunted for speaking out against the Thalmor, in a country that fought and defeated the Thalmor... so what?  She's only as guilty as nearly every other Redguard in Hammerfell, so what's so special about her?  And if for some some reason she HAD been singled out for speaking out against the Thalmor, why would she leave Hammerfell, which is overwhelmingly hostile to the Thalmor, where nearly everyone is her ally, and go to Skyrim, which is crawling with Thalmor?  Does no-one in Hammerfell have a cellar they could hide her in?

      And if I were the Thalmor, why would I import a bunch of Redguards (the people who hate me the most) from Hammerfell (the nation that kicked my ass the hardest) to hunt down my dissenters?  Even if by some chance there are Redguard mercenaries who would work for me, why would I hire them?  Why go through the trouble?  What's so great about them?  They can't even get past the front gate, let alone collect Saadia on their own. Really worth the effort there.  


      As for the ashes... we have no idea what happened after the quest is over.  Maybe the Alik'r took her behind the shed and killed her.  Maybe.  Dunno why they'd leave a body laying around after all that trouble convincing people that they'd meant to take her alive.  It's just as likely, if not more likely, that she was taken to Hammerfell, executed, and then shipped back to Skyrim to be interred in the only place where she was still wanted.  It's equally likely that she started some trouble on her way back and died because of it. There's even a small chance that a piano fell on her head.   One might also consider that the urn might be purely symbolic, as might happen if she were merely presumed dead after her disappeareance.

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    • 64.126.169.55 wrote:

      One might also consider that the urn might be purely symbolic, as might happen if she were merely presumed dead after her disappeareance.

      ^^ THIS! I found this thread today, and while reading it I was like "Wow, but what if it's just symbolic? Like in real life when someone disappears, and then you have no body to bury"

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    • Ah...many people have already answered.  In my opinion, many have answered correctly.

      Kematu's account has more weight to it.  Not to mention that he's Alik'r, and thus is 100% guaranteed to be loyal to his homeland (as far as I see it).

      He also doesn't lie about why he's there.  He did say he was hired to capture "Iman" and bring her to justice.

      Saadia's/Iman's account is inconsistent...and she pulls a dagger on you.  Against a heavily-armored and well-armed warrior, no less. (Well, that is the typical Dragonborn)

      She tries to act tough after pulling out that weapon because she did sell Taneth out to the Thalmor.  In this case, she's clearly desperate and guilty, otherwise she'd know not to do something like that.

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    • I was persuaded by Kematu but then I realised if that was the case, what's with all them bandits?

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    • I think the best option here, is to download the mod which makes everyone in skyrim (even the children) killable.

      Then, proceed to start in the southwest corner of the map and make a sweeping movemont across all of skyrim, slaughtering everything that lives, and unlives.

      Wait a minute... this is supermario....


      Really though, good guys don't hire bandits, they slaughter them. The fact the bandits talk about being paid and talk as if the alik'r are more untrustworthy than the bandits says enough for me. 

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    • Could it be that the Thalmor send thugs after you for protecting someone they want dead? It is not like the Thalmor to avenge a HUMAN... They think of human as fleas, easy enough to scratch... Nor would they send out thugs to do their dirty work... They would use illusion magic to find who they wanted and convince them to come back of their own "free will". That is the Thalmor way. High elves are the best at illusion magic. There is a reason for that.

      In fact, although I cannot confirm it, I believe that Thalmor illusion spells apply animage when tagreting humans and dogs alike... Any of the lower orders of non divine beings...

      If she did betray her people, odds are that she was under a spell when she did it. I do not blame things for dying under my destruction spells, I do not blame them for attacking their friends when I enspell them into a rage either.

      Thus both stories are true she did not betray and she did betray... Either way she did not do so of her own free will.

      Also, Leon said, "No women, no kids..." So, I kill the dudes and take their gear... They do have hats after all...

      Nomar, the Nomarian

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    • I'm under the impression they're both lying or the very least not telling the full truth. Saadia is lying about the reasons of her exile to gain sympathy which is obvious with her numerous inconsistencies, however I wouldn't say her claiming not to know why they're in Whiterun is an extension of that, but that is rather an instance of her not wanting to draw attention to herself in that one could be innocent and still feign ignorance to try to keep their cover. Kamatu is lying in that he tries to come off as some noble warrior seeking justice so you believe his side is fully 'right', when he's obviously a bit shady himself and just after the reward which can be inferred by the form member of his group being afraid of him saying the Dragonborn is already dead for knowing that name when he just wants to a fresh start away from Kamatu after being left to rot. Kamatu also surrounds himself with Brigands a 'noble' warrior simply wouldn't do that, so again he's just in it for the money even if she does go back to stand trial as suggested when he paralyzes her instead of kills her, the if you kill her while paralyzed suggests that Hammerfell specified that they wanted her brought back alive as he doesn't seem upset about you murdering her rather 'ruining' everything suggesting he's not getting paid or getting paid less for the work he put in because she's dead.

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    • If the Dragonborn betrays Saadia, Kematu will say something like "did you really think you could go on manipulating people forever".  You could argue that was just incase anyone else was listenign or to keep the Dragonborn convinced and prevent him/her from suddenly changing thier mind, but that just doesn't seem like something he would just say if he wasn't at least partially truthful.

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    • Not sure who is telling the truth. I have helped both in different play throughs. Kematu claims that she is to be returned to Hammerfell to face justice,  however when siding with them her remains can be found in the Hall of the Dead in Whiterun suggesting that he may be lying. I prefered helping Saaida as you get to have a bigger fight, therefore gaining more experiance and loot. 

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    • After reading a lot of answers (all of them in fact), I came to the conclussion to aid Kematu. Saadia's story doesn't add up, as the prior points eluded. If she really was on the run for opposing the AD, then coming to Skyrim makes no sense. She can be dragged off as an accomplice to the Stormcloaks and that's that. Sure, the Thalmor can't just waltz in and drag off whoever, but a lonely foreigner with no ties to anybody? I think they could get her, if they really wanted her. (Which according to her story they do. Why else would they send assassins?)

      Note: If I call her a Thalmor friend in this post, it's more like a useful tool to keep around under the guise of a friend. Typing that would be cumbersome, so I'll call her a Thalmor friend and trust you keep in mind I don't mean an actual friend.

      She couldn't have made it through half the Empire running from the Thalmor, there are undercover Thalmor agents all over the place. Also Thalmor agents could simply use illusion spells to make her companions or the townpeople attack and kill her, or ignore them when they take her down. She COULD however, if she was with them and running from the Alik'r, since THEY would have no real aid outside of Hammerfell (Empire agents would be far too afraid to go into direct opposition of the Thalmor since it could lead to immediate war).

      Consider this: She hasn't been on the run and immediately settled in Whiterun. She has been on the run all the way from Hammerfell to Whiterun, with a lot of stops in between.  They are skilled warriors, so if the truly wanted to catch her, a noblewoman with (apparently) no battle capability, it should be easy.

      So how would she make it all the way from Hammerfell to Skyrim? Consider she claims to have no allies. That's a long way, littered with monsters, bandits and whatever else. She CAN'T have gotten that far, while being pursued, all on her own. She must have had help. Not every person in TES is a superpowered Dragonborn. Most would be killed by a Sabre Cat or a couple of Wolves (not to mention Giants).

      Now it is mentioned she has changed her name and appearance completely while running from her pursuers. That requires a very specific skillset, one more befitting of a spy than a normal person. I mean, coming out of nowhere, building a new life, lying about your origins, your name, your everything and keeping up that façade. You'd need to a very skilled liar to manipulate people like that. (Btw. actors are basically liars, too. So acting and lying are the same. An actor lies about being someone else ;) )  She likely learned some simple Illusion spells and espionage skills to make it easier for her to help the Thalmor. Even a noble only has that much influence. That way, she can deal a lot of damage to a state but has pitiful offensive capabilities (hence she draws a Dagger to defend herself). Didn't she try to send the Dragonborn to hs/her death when she tells you to fight about 10 elite warriors? She probably intented for you to assault them and flee in the meantime. I mean, if her cause was as she said it is, then she might get help from the Jarl but at least the Gray-Manes would help her.

      Also why would the pursuers take so long to drive her into a corner? After all, no matter how, she made it all the way to Skyrim. You need to consider that Skyrim is a place where the Aldmeri Dominion is openly opposed. That's important. If you pursue someone protected by the Aldmeri Dominion, you'll have trouble everywhere else than Skyrim because here you can simply attack and kill the agents of the Thalmor. Everywhere else it would lead to an uproar because of the truce.

      This also proves they wanted her alive no matter what. If the Alik'r really were in only for the money and getting her alive was worth more, then it must have been an insane difference to warrant chasing her from Hammerfell to Skyrim. I doubt simply mercenaries who only wanted gold would be so persistent (in getting her alive) and would have simply killed her at some point. Chasing her so far is more trouble than it's worth.

      Or, if you want someone dead, then hiring the Dark Brotherhood would be easier, with a higher probability of success and the anonymity of using them. Seriously, you have a brotherhood of assassins, if you want someone dead. Those of you who played Morrowind may remember the Morag Tong. A state employing or endorsing assassins is not unheard of.

      This would explain how she got to Skyrim and why she got there. If she was protected by the AD, she could make it there. However, Skyrim is different as being with the AD offers no protection at all.

      I'm sure the Thalmor wouldn't actually offer Justicars for protection but hire some people to do so (since they might need her again in a future Hammerfell conquest but they don't care for her much since she's only human). These hired people are still agents of the AD, so attacking them would have the same implications as actual Thalmor.

      NOT in Skyrim, though. That brings me to the point of the Alik'r being in the Cave and hiring Bandits and stuff. Now you might wanna consider, they aren't allowed into the Hold. They know she's in Whiterun or in its vicinity, so they try to settle somewhere close since she can't run away anymore. She can't? Not easily anyway.

      If me previous assumption is correct, then she had protectors from the Thalmor (not actual Thalmor but likely mercenaries). They kept her safe from actual harm, while the AD simply said to the Empire: This Saadia is an important AD friend. Please take care that she's not harmed. Or something to that extent. So while she was anywhere where the Empire had any say, she was safe.

      Now in Skyrim, the whole thing looks very different. Neither her association with the AD, nor the Empire, is keeping her safe. All she has are the mercenaries. The Alik'r probably attacked those near Whiterun and whiped them out, having sustained losses themselves. Now they know she's in the vicinity, as she can't have gotten far on her own, but don't have a clear read on where she is. As you witness, they got kicked out of Whiterun and were banned from there.

      Now they wouldn't know, if Saadia wouldn't get new protectors. They made sure, they would be able to wipe those out too, by hiring some bandits.

      After all, where would they get the necessary fighting power, so far away from home? Hiring random bandit makes most sense. Worst those would be good cannon fodder. Also consider that the Thalmor can openly attack them in Skyrim, so having too little people and getting wiped out is a possibility.

      Also, of course Kematu won't tell you everything. Those are political secrets which may put Hammerfell and the Empire in a pretty sticky situation, if they got out. Why would he tell some random dude/dudette? He'll tell you as much as you need to know. After all, they can't know who might be a Thalmor agent. They wouldn't disclose everything, even if you helped them.

      Furthermore, they wouldn't have any official notes or badges on any of them to simply show and get their way. Imagine, if they got caught. That would raise so many questions, like why where they there, what where they doing and if they had a note with their objective it would raise even more potentially dangerous questions(as in dangerous for the future of Hammerfell). Sending official agents into a different country to hunt someone down is by no means a small thing.

      More importantly, even if they had an official note or something, it would be pointless. The Empire can't openly oppose the Thalmor, so aiding a group hunting a Thalmor friend is impossible.

      Why would Saadia dying make Kematu a liar? As someone mentioned earlier, the urn might be symbolic (Hulda may have done that after she disappeared).

      What I find just as likely is that she was executed in Hammerfell. She was taken back for trial and a trial always begets a sentence. What is the sentence for treason? More than likely death. She had a trial and got the death sentence, which is even more likely, if she aided the Thalmor.

      Also we have a case where someone important got taken from Whiterun and went to a Thalmor prison. Remember Thorald Grey-Mane? The Battle-Borns aided the Empire in his abduction and the Empire handed him over to the Thalmor. If someone from the two greatest houses of Whiterun can be taken away, then some random woman in a bar is even more easily taken care of.

      The (supposed) Alik'r being Thalmor agents makes no sense. Neither storywise, lorewise or even by any logical reasoning.

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    • Also it's very likely the Alik'r in prison acted out of orders and went by himself and got caught. Of course, they would leave him behind. Also partly because they can't officially can't enter tthe hold to free him, so they'd have to risk getting even more guys captured to get out one dude that went rogue.

      I wouldn't do it and Kematu having very scarce ressources (as in people) wouldn't either. He can't send the Bandits and trusting some random passerby with the money for the bail would be stupid.

      tl;dr: Aid Kematu. Read the entire post to know why.

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    • I say kill both sides:

      (1) If sshe is a traitor she could out you to the thalmor

      (2) If she innocent she'll still tell someone else about her "knight" who'd come to you holding things over your head for help

      (3)No matter his reasoning he is not the top man meaning he reports to someone meaning he reports you to someone putting you into yet another situation so kill em all leave  no 1 to tell the tale

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    • Despite i Liking the thalmor, i side with Kematu because she betryed her country and runned away instead of facing the consequences. 

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    • People, believe what you want, I tried both sides by completing one, loading an old save, and doing the other, but you will never know who tells the truth...

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    • Here's my logic.

      Siding with Saadia costs 100 gold to get the prisoner out of jail and Saadia gives you 500 gold. Net gain: 400 gold. Siding with Kematu earns you a flat 500 gold, since you don't have to free anybody. Ergo, siding with Kematu earns you more septims and is the right choice.

      But in all seriousness, as previous posts have stated, Kematu's story makes more historical sense, to the point where it is inarguable. The fact that Saadia turns up dead is unsurprising. Normal court procedure would dictate that she would have already been tried in her home country for treason of the highest degree. The penalty for that is likely death in Hammerfell. Ergo, once she was captured, her sentence was carried out. Kematu likely hired bandits because they were cheap. The Alik'r warriors were likely running low on resources and were obviously low on manpower after traveling through the dangerous Tamriel wilderness all the way from Hammerfell to Skyrim.

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    • SuperJaws100 wrote:
      Here's my logic.

      Siding with Saadia costs 100 gold to get the prisoner out of jail and Saadia gives you 500 gold...

      And earn even more if you help kematu then kill him, calm saadia get your reward and kill her. You gain 1410 this way i think

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    • Well guys, according to the wiki if you hand over Saadia to Kematu then you can find her Burial Urn in Whiterun's Hall of the Dead so maybe she was telling the truth :o

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    • 72.74.63.155 wrote:
      I completely think Kematu is telling the truth, and Saadia is with the Aldmeri.

      That would be why I side with her.

      I always kill Thalmor. Even since before the quest Diplomatic Immunity. I kill every patrol, if I can catch up to them. Sometimes they are too far ahead of me to kill.

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    • After doing some digging on Youtube, I got Kematu's dialog. Two dialogs were enough to convince me they weren't hired by the Thalmor:

      When you tell Kematu that he and his men are (Thalmor) assassins:
      "Assassins? No, nothing so crass. "Saadia", as you know her, is wanted by the noble houses of Taneth for treason. We were hired to see her returned to Hammerfell for her crimes."

      When you ask Kematu what Saadia's crime is:
      "She sold the city out to the Aldmeri Dominion. Were it not for her betrayal, Taneth could have held its ground in the war. The other noble houses discovered her betrayal and she fled. They want her brought back alive. The resistance against the Dominion is alive and well in Hammerfell, and they want justice."

      Remember, the Thalmor have no influence in Hammerfell after they removed its military forces as a condition of the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai. It wouldn't matter if Saadia spoke out against the Thalmor because literally everyone in Hammerfell hates them already,  especially when they were unwilling to concede defeat and lose half of their territory to the elves as a condition of the White-Gold Concordat. That's why I don't buy Saadia's story that the Alik'r are Thalmor assassins. If they were, do you think the Whiterun guards would stop them from capturing Saadia or even arresting one of them? They would be insane to try to oppose someone working for the Thalmor.

      Saadia's story is very flawed in my opinion.  Why would she even leave Hammerfell if the Dominion was after her? Just as I said before, after the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai the Thalmor and the Dominion were completely kicked out of Hammerfell and the Redguards regained all their lands. This makes Hammerfell the safest place from the Thalmor in all of Tamriel, or second if you count Black Marsh. She could have hide anywhere in Hammerfell and it would've been safer than Skyrim, where there are Thalmor roaming around.

      It's true that mercenaries sell their services to the highest bidder, but the Dominion employing Alik'r mercenaries just doesn't make sense. If they wanted to have her killed they'd have sent a Khajiit assassin, like they did two times already in the game: One to kill you and another one to kill Malborn. Or they would send some justiciars with an executioner order to kill her, like they do to you when you kill some random justiciar escorting a Talos worshiper prisoner over and over.

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    • I have gone both ways with that quest. Currently I took her side but it seems they are still hanging around Whiterun even through the quest has been completed.

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    • That would be a bug, if you join the Dawnguard (not that you would) they can be handy for the vampire attacks.

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    • Ik this is totally off topic but when I do the Civil War quests, in the middle of attacking Whiterun there are the Alik'r warriors there, (I was on Saddia's side but murdered her after for reasons) is it bad if you kill them?

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    • Read the two comments above (and maybe click the blue bugs link), but it will be a crime if your spotted murdering them.

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    • Kematu lies to your face. He says he will not harm her and take her back to Hammerfell, he in fact kills her. If you side with Kematu then after a while you can go into the Whiterun Hall of Dead and see her urn/coffin. This means that they killed her. I thought that it could be the Thalmor that kill her but that means Kematu has still lied to you. The Thalmor or someone else might kill her when she gets back to Hammerfellbut why would they bury her in Whiterun? A loop hole to what I am saying could actually be that someone prepares a fake obituary so no one wonders why she's gone missing. Either way, I side with Saadia because my Dragonborn is noble (Doesn't loot dead bodies unless he has to, and other stuff like that.

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    • Rukathesoldier wrote: actually you can't prove one story or the other. i think the alikr are telling the truth but i still side with saddia. 

      Apparently you are not better than being fooled by a pretty face.

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    • AzuraKnight wrote: That would be a bug, if you join the Dawnguard (not that you would) they can be handy for the vampire attacks.

      What's that supposed to mean?! Sure, you can't do the weird vampire demon transformation thing but some people roleplay as vampire/undead/Daedra worshipper/bad people hating characters. And the transformation powers don't compliment everybody's playstyle. Others simply don't want to have to deal with the disadvantages of being a vampire. I actually fit into all three of thosel

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    • It means the two Alik'r that appear at the Whiterun gates after the quest Vampiredude479 mentioned aren't suppost to still be there, but they can be helpful with the random vampire attacks on towns. But Vampiredude476 likes being a vampire quite a lot so i wouldn't think he'd join the Dawnguard.

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    • After reading most of the comments (skipped some middle ones) I guess there is no truth to be found at this time. Kematu's side is better for a simple reason; Justice is blind. His story makes more sense than Saadia's, so he seems like the better choice. I went once for him, but honestly I prefer to side with her. I do not honestly care so much for justice, as much as I care about my gain. Money never mattered to any of my characters.. since their favorite passtime were pickpocketing and honestly the only time that I sided with the Kumata was when I made a character acting as paladin like as possible, always siding with law and order.

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    • I just complete the quest. I not sure which side is telling the truth. Sometimes I side with her other times I will side with them.

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    • CaptainNuggetLord wrote:
      Kematu lies to your face. He says he will not harm her and take her back to Hammerfell, he in fact kills her. If you side with Kematu then after a while you can go into the Whiterun Hall of Dead and see her urn/coffin. This means that they killed her. I thought that it could be the Thalmor that kill her but that means Kematu has still lied to you. The Thalmor or someone else might kill her when she gets back to Hammerfellbut why would they bury her in Whiterun? A loop hole to what I am saying could actually be that someone prepares a fake obituary so no one wonders why she's gone missing. Either way, I side with Saadia because my Dragonborn is noble (Doesn't loot dead bodies unless he has to, and other stuff like that.

      This is not truth and I have evidences. I played In My Time of Need today and I created 4 different scenarios (side note: this was tested on XBOX 360 with patch 1.9 installed):

      Scenario 1 - I killed Saadia before I talked to her about the Alik'r and two days in-game latter, her urn appeared on the Hall of the Dead.

      Scenario 2 - I sided with Kematu and after I delivered Saadia to him, I killed her. Two days in-game later, her urn was on the Hall of the Dead.

      Scenario 3 - I sided with Kematu and I delivered Saadia to him without killing her. Two in-game later, her urn was not on the Hall of the Dead. I waited more two days and nothing. No urn.

      Scenario 4 - Even if you save Saadia, she never starts treating you as a friend, just like other NPCs do when you complete their quests. If she was for real, I’d expect her to at least greet you more warmly thereafter - maybe even become marriageable. But she continues to address you as before. That suggests me that she is putting an act when she needs your help to kill her captors and drop it when you’ve done your bit.

      Conclusion: Saadia’s urn appear IF AND ONLY IF YOU KILL HER. So to all people who believe Kematu was lying to you because you find her urn in the Hall of the Dead, find another excuse because this one is false. And I will finish this quoting Kematu’s dialog at the end of the quest: “Don’t let a pretty face deceive you. You are better than that.”.

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    • Yep, Kematu tells the truth.  Saadia is the big liar here.

      The very first time I tried "In My Time of Need" back in 2011, I sided with Kematu.  Certain details in Saadia's little story just don't add up.

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    • In elder scrolls lore the Ali'kir or however it is spelled are hammerfell's noble warriors. It's kind of nords treat people like the companions. The redguard's alikir are very prestigous and would not be hired by the thalmor because they hate the thalmor.

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    • I belive Kematu,Saadia's story has too many holes for me to belive her

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    • Saadia seems to be lying as from what I've noticed if The Aldmeri Dominion was after her, they would have gone after her them selves or sent members of The Imperial Legion. I mean if they do it with anyone who sides with the Stormcloaks or anyone who complains about Talos worship being band. Why wouldn't they go after her if they were after her.

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    • 67.61.132.3 wrote:
      Saadia seems to be lying as from what I've noticed if The Aldmeri Dominion was after her, they would have gone after her them selves or sent members of The Imperial Legion.

      The Empire DON'T work for the Dominion, so they wouldn't send their soldiers to hunt down Saadia.

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    • I am WOWed! Everyone is talking deep stuff. Anyways, gonna join with as little evidence as you imagine just to say it is still inconclusive.

      Through the course of the game, I cleared/looted  all places with any signs of thalmor and pickpocketed all high elves and can't remember any document or dialogue that mentions a traitor or special agent(s), and also, I tried all courses for the quest.

      Them all are lying or not about the thalmor stuff, even though the alikr are more plausible. Because, obviously, there's a possibility that documents about that may not be held in Skyrim, but also, they should exist in Skyrim if any action about it was occurring.

      As you may have read on other replies Alikr are the Redguards' equivalent to Companions and hate Thalmor, but have you noticed how much Companions care for cash and may be talked into doing "glorious" things? Alikr may be the same. Also, the Dragonborn is the main proof that anyone can choose any path. Whiterun's laws are not so tigh, to go to jail there one may have done something big. Obviously we can go to jail if can't pay for a stolen Goat's leg, but they hired a bunch of bandits. Even if this was a desperate move, there should be some money left suitable to pay for little culture shocks and crimes... or maybe not.

      Even if Saadia is playing the innocent pretty face, a woman hiding from a lot of armed  guys is quite a poor desperate thing eager to escape by any means. Even if she doesn't become "something more" with the dragonborn after the quest, she said didn't trust anybody and made clear the alliance was a desperate move. Maybe this is just her insensible personality, maybe she's used to use her beauty...

      Her grave appears after the betrayal, but as mentioned before, maybe the people just assumes she is dead and build a memorial for a beloved beauty, or she suffered another type of trial. Still, no vengeance is suffered by the Dragonborn after killing the Alikr, but maybe he/she can't be linked to the bloodbath or just killed any witnesser.

      My theory:

      Part of the preps for any troop trying to accomplish a mission of their own business on foreign land is learning about the other culture and asking for permission, since it's not war. The group of redguards are in fact a clan of criminals disguised as the mighty Alikr, since the real warriors would have little chance of ruining their pride or commiting a cultural shock. Also would have permission to enter Whiterun even after a little whoopsie.

      Saadia long ago was part of them, disbanded for whatever reason, maybe to have a quiet life? Then the guys came for her for whatever reason, taking advantage of the knowledge that the Alikr happens to be searching for a woman. Perfect alibi

      This explains the strange alliance with bandits, her insensibility and fate after betrayal, the lack of vengeance after killing the Alikr, the incident with guards, the speech skills of both... etc

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    • Damn guys, we're pretty frickin' good at restoration/conjuration. Two years and this thread has not shown a sign of dying. Jokes aside, lemme throw some stuff at you guys. These are all my own thoughts, so feel free to disregard or take them to heart as you see fit. A couple notes before I do so... I personally side with Iman/Saadia. I always play a logic driven, slightly moral character. I have yet to actually go through a playthrough with her dead, meaning I make this decision every time.

      Let's consider a few things. First look at Iman/Saadia's story, and her circumstances...

      >She arrives to Whiterun from Hammerfell after a journey, which can be assumed is a long one from Kematu's comment about her changing her name several times. "Why wouldn't she stay in Hammerfell? Wouldn't it be safer in a land of Thalmor opposition?" Well sure. Definitely. I mean, it's not like she changed her name a few times and probably was chased out by the very men following her trail now. It's not like Kematu basically told you she's been running for a while... oh, wait... Hold that thought. (Just kidding, you can put it in your piggybank if you want). I, personally, would change my name each time I reallocated, and judging from how quickly people in skyrim's harsh terrain get from place to place, how much faster would those at home in a relatively less harsh terrain cover distance? Space loses significance the easier it is to travel. I wouldn't stay. Note that she is surprised when the Dragonborn notifies her that she's been found. She was damn sure Whiterun was safe. No reason not to either. If I had to hide, I'd definitely hide in plain sight, but just plain enough to pass off. Whiterun, after all, is neutral, despite leaning toward the empire. What better a place to reside in? And why go to a Stormcloak hold? For the very reasons stated above, Hammerfell didn't aid in the Great War. That's enough for many to hold them in opposition, especially if this mercenary is telling everyone you're with the Thalmor.

      >"Well, why would the Thalmor waste resources trying to nab her if she just spoke out?" Did you even pay attention when Fralia had one of her sons kidnapped, simply because he was going to aid the stormcloaks and oppose the Thalmor? This one man, who isn't politically powerful, rich, or important in any way other than he opposes the Thalmor, is taken. How much more effort for a noble of a house that spoke out against you? You know, someone with some actual power in politics, even if lessened by her absence. Plus, they are rooting out every bit of Talos worship they see. That's pretty common too. Even Rikke is a devout Talos worshipper, and she's the second-highest ranking imperial war leader in Skyrim. Perhaps it's just my opinion, but that's a massive use of resources. I mean, these people are everywhere. There's even an entire faction devoted to keeping it intact. It's not a very far stretch to say that the Thalmor would try to nab every high-up political opponent they know of.

      >She makes a futile attempt to threaten the Dragonborn and thinks up a badly threaded lie. Sure, this is a breaking point for a lot of people, and maybe this is intentional or not, but just think about it. She didn't expect you to show up. You're intimidating. You just told her she's about to be found. She, as she said, is running out of time. That's a lot of pressure on someone. Only a master liar would be able to fabricate a flawless tale in those moments. And, by the way, like I said, you're intimidating. You're also an unknown factor. Why would she trust you any more than she has to? The details could very well make anyone easily corruptable drop what they're doing and shank her. After all, many people are just in it for the gold, and she's a noble far detatched from her wealth. She's not going to be making much extra money, either. She's a barmaid. Figure it out.

      Now review Kematu's story.

      >He and his men have been chasing Iman/Saadia for a while. It's a tireless search. They almost find her, time and again, failing each, and they still might continue this trend. Yet they search anyways. This leaves you to fathom what exactly they're after her for. At this point, it's either honor or gold. These, the same honorable mercenaries that would not rescue their own brother in arms despite his faults? These, the same honorable mercenaries that the one caught in his cell says a random stranger who happens to know their leader's name is going to die? Oh, and these, the same honorable mercenaries that would just as soon leave and start a new life upon failing? That seems more like a cut-throat business to me. This determination they display is very very important, because it means that they would cross any barrier to find her.

      >He and his men are straight up associating with bandits. Not casually either. They're taking shelter there, rather than near a city. If they were on official business from Hammerfell, it'd be pretty easy to say, "Hey, guards? Yeah, we have a peace treaty with the Thalmor now. We're here on official business. Wouldn't want to cause an international incident, wouldja? Here's my card. One eight-hundred 3-6-1 1-3-2-6." (That number is grab her, by the way).

      >He claims he is going to take her back to Hammerfell. She agrees with this statement. So, he's obviously gonna do that if he gets her. One thing Bethesda doesn't often screw up on is cleverly alluded to deaths. Regardless, once he takes her (if he does) after a while a burial urn can be found in the Whiterun Hall of the Dead. Say whatever you want, even if it was a bug, that matters not to your character. Nothing at all hints that that should not be there. Nothing. The only thing it proves beyond a doubt, is that Iman/Saadia is dead.

      Now let's consider the proper course of action. For me, it was pretty simple. Too many things pointed toward Saadia/Iman telling more truths than Kematu, so I double crossed Kematu for his loot, and then after getting my reward from Saadia's calmed self, decided to only get my bounties and bedtime from the keep and my house. The fact that she calls for the deaths of the mercenaries further cements my point, because who wants to run forever? It's not like the very bandits they were consorting with couldn't have killed them for their gold.

      For you? Well, she did draw a knife on you, so I guess if you're exceedingly vindictive, there's no reason to let her live beyond that point. Or maybe you just want the bonus loot they both provide, so you side with Kematu until you get his gold, then merc his ass and take Saadia's money while you've calmed her (literally... with the spell). Or, maybe you just don't agree with me, and she's a lying good-for-nothing noble who can't do crap for no one. Or maybe you don't want to be her enemy, because you're on her side, so you just flat out kill Kematu. OR, maybe you don't agree with my points, but just like her because of her "womanly charms." That parts up to you. I still hold firm that she's a liar for sure, but less of one than Kematu.

      Side note: You do not have to fight/kill most of the bandits. "To the right of the first hall, there are a couple of boulders, the Dragonborn can climb up with spamming the jump button. With that, just follow the path into the final hall, which spares the Dragonborn almost every battle with local bandits."

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    • Kematu is telling the truth, he gives the full story, which is also a far more logical one. Saadia also shows no sign of gratitude if you help her, looks a lot like what the Thalmor do. Also, tell me, why would the Thalmor employ Alik'r mercenaries when they have Thalmor Justiciars in Skyrim?

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Kematu is telling the truth, he gives the full story, which is also a far more logical one. Saadia also shows no sign of gratitude if you help her, looks a lot like what the Thalmor do. Also, tell me, why would the Thalmor employ Alik'r mercenaries when they have Thalmor Justiciars in Skyrim?

      He only gives the full story if he indeed is not lying to you. But, he says she won't be harmed at least until she gets there. The burial urn shows up almost immediately after he takes her. 1 inconsistency.

      Why would the Thalmor employ Alik'r? Well, if you want someone to chase an enemy in a foreign land, why send your people if the entire province is against you? You'll just end up getting them killed. Say what you want about the Thalmor, they aren't stupid (usually). Alik'r blend in in Hammerfell, and are less management than sending a detatchment to a hostile area when you're managing a lot of imperial provinces, trying to secure your dominance.

      Edit: This chase did not start in Skyrim. The Alik'r chased her there. The dominion did NOT know she was in Skyrim and still may not. This started in Hammerfell.

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    • Oran D. Weaver wrote:

      He only gives the full story if he indeed is not lying to you. But, he says she won't be harmed at least until she gets there. The burial urn shows up almost immediately after he takes her. 1 inconsistency...

      Ever heard of game mechanics? She got removed from Whiterun, and to prevent her from respawning inside the bannered mare she could have been coded to die. 

      I don't know if you've noticed, but Whiterun is in Skyrim, not Hammerfell.

      So Kematu keeps secrets? That's not what an agency like the Thalmor would do.

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    • Oran D. Weaver wrote:
      >He claims he is going to take her back to Hammerfell. She agrees with this statement. So, he's obviously gonna do that if he gets her. One thing Bethesda doesn't often screw up on is cleverly alluded to deaths. Regardless, once he takes her (if he does) after a while a burial urn can be found in the Whiterun Hall of the Dead. Say whatever you want, even if it was a bug, that matters not to your character. Nothing at all hints that that should not be there. Nothing. The only thing it proves beyond a doubt, is that Iman/Saadia is dead.

      If this is your evidence that Saadia is teling the truth, find another one. That urn only appear IF AND ONLY IF YOU KILL HER.

      If you want solid evidence Saadia is lying, I will give you a strong one. Saadia claims Kematu and his men were hired by the Thalmor. First of all, the Thalmor have no influence on Hammerfell after they signed the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai (The conditions of the treaty compelled the Dominion to withdraw all of its military forces from Hammerfell), so there is no way the Thalmor could hire the Alik'r. Second it doesn't matter if Saddia spoke out against the Dominion because all Redguards hate them already and the Thalmor could do nothing because, as I said, they have no influence on Hammerfell.

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    • ^That pretty much ends the argument right there.

      Saadia sold them out to the Thalmor, but that and the Thalmor somehow still having a presence in Hammerfell aren't mutually exclusive.

      The Thalmor were kicked out of Hammerfell 16 years before current events in 4E201.  They didn't return.

      Saadia's lying about the Thalmor being after her.  If she was telling the truth, there's absolutely no good reason for her to be in Skyrim.

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    • I picked Alik'r over Saadia, but I killed them both after I got the money so...

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Oran D. Weaver wrote:

      He only gives the full story if he indeed is not lying to you. But, he says she won't be harmed at least until she gets there. The burial urn shows up almost immediately after he takes her. 1 inconsistency...

      Ever heard of game mechanics? She got removed from Whiterun, and to prevent her from respawning inside the bannered mare she could have been coded to die. 

      I don't know if you've noticed, but Whiterun is in Skyrim, not Hammerfell.

      So Kematu keeps secrets? That's not what an agency like the Thalmor would do.

      ... By that logic anything at all in all of TES lore related to Skyrim's game mechanics means nothing. Ever. This includes the effects of every legendary weapon, the abilities of bosses, the effects of potions, everything. Edit: That also includes quest occurances with outcomes not specifically mentioned in lore. Unless you'd like to say they're somewhat inclusive in which case, it'd be easy as all hell to remove an urn from the hall of the dead. Especially in a quest where you're being morally abiguous. It adds to the argument if you know flat outright someone is lying.

      And, if the Thalmor don't keep secrets, why not have the information in their dossiers public? Of course they keep secrets.

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:
      Oran D. Weaver wrote:
      >He claims he is going to take her back to Hammerfell. She agrees with this statement. So, he's obviously gonna do that if he gets her. One thing Bethesda doesn't often screw up on is cleverly alluded to deaths. Regardless, once he takes her (if he does) after a while a burial urn can be found in the Whiterun Hall of the Dead. Say whatever you want, even if it was a bug, that matters not to your character. Nothing at all hints that that should not be there. Nothing. The only thing it proves beyond a doubt, is that Iman/Saadia is dead.
      If this is your evidence that Saadia is teling the truth, find another one. That urn only appear IF AND ONLY IF YOU KILL HER.

      If you want solid evidence Saadia is lying, I will give you a strong one. Saadia claims Kematu and his men were hired by the Thalmor. First of all, the Thalmor have no influence on Hammerfell after they signed the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai (The conditions of the treaty compelled the Dominion to withdraw all of its military forces from Hammerfell), so there is no way the Thalmor could hire the Alik'r. Second it doesn't matter if Saddia spoke out against the Dominion because all Redguards hate them already and the Thalmor could do nothing because, as I said, they have no influence on Hammerfell.

      Please look at the wiki located here. The urn shows up in one of two situations. If you kill her, OR if you side with Kematu. Skyrim is a unique game, so maybe in your game it didn't show up due to a bug. The wiki and many reports from players active on it have concluded the urn appears there rather consistently. Perhaps you have a mod that changes the circumstances of it appearing.

      Back on topic, look at what I said.

      ">She makes a futile attempt to threaten the Dragonborn and thinks up a badly threaded lie."

      I'm well aware she does lie, and you can reread it if you'd like to freshen up on my points. In regarding to the Alik'r not working for the Thalmor, here is my comment on that again.

      "Why would the Thalmor employ Alik'r? Well, if you want someone to chase an enemy in a foreign land, why send your people if the entire province is against you? You'll just end up getting them killed. Say what you want about the Thalmor, they aren't stupid (usually). Alik'r blend in in Hammerfell, and are less management than sending a detatchment to a hostile area when you're managing a lot of imperial provinces, trying to secure your dominance."

      Like I said, it's far easier to employ the Alik'r rather than send your own detatchment. Like I also said, "This chase did not start in Skyrim. The Alik'r chased her there. The dominion did NOT know she was in Skyrim and still may not. This started in Hammerfell." "She arrives to Whiterun from Hammerfell after a journey, which can be assumed is a long one from Kematu's comment about her changing her name several times."

      Also consider that the Second Treaty of Stros (the treaty that made the dominion withdraw) was 20 years prior to current date. That places the fall of (insert the city he claims she sold out here, I have a bad memory and am a very long way from my next playthrough) at least 20 years ago. That would also imply she probably left somewhere around 20-15 years ago. And, claiming that the dominion has no influence in hammerfell anywhere from 1 to 7 years after a treaty was signed that only removes military presence is surprisingly dull. Politics are very precise. Especially treaties. There's no reason they can't still have a presence there, provided they make no military moves in the public eye. After all, take a look at the empire. Granted they didn't win, but it's a peace treaty just the same. Do the Thalmor really seem to be the type to completely abandon a potential threat? It doesn't look like it with the Justiciars about. Meanwhile we have Iman/Saadia who is a noble (affirmed by both her and Kematu) that publicly spoke out against the Thalmor.

      ">"Well, why would the Thalmor waste resources trying to nab her if she just spoke out?" Did you even pay attention when Fralia had one of her sons kidnapped, simply because he was going to aid the stormcloaks and oppose the Thalmor? This one man, who isn't politically powerful, rich, or important in any way other than he opposes the Thalmor, is taken. How much more effort for a noble of a house that spoke out against you? You know, someone with some actual power in politics, even if lessened by her absence. Plus, they are rooting out every bit of Talos worship they see. That's pretty common too. Even Rikke is a devout Talos worshipper, and she's the second-highest ranking imperial war leader in Skyrim. Perhaps it's just my opinion, but that's a massive use of resources. I mean, these people are everywhere. There's even an entire faction devoted to keeping it intact. It's not a very far stretch to say that the Thalmor would try to nab every high-up political opponent they know of."

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    • Oran D. Weaver wrote:

      ... By that logic anything at all in all of TES lore related to Skyrim's game mechanics means nothing. Ever. This includes the effects of every legendary weapon, the abilities of bosses, the effects of potions, everything. Unless you'd like to say they're somewhat inclusive in which case, it'd be easy as all hell to remove an urn from the hall of the dead. Especially in a quest where you're being morally abiguous. It adds to the argument if you know flat outright someone is lying.

      And, if the Thalmor don't keep secrets, why not have the information in their dossiers public? Of course they keep secrets.

      Keep secrets from one another, the Thalmor would send justiciars instead of Redguards, seeing as Hammerfell is independent, and the Alik'r Warriors are the same warriors who kicked the Dominion to a standstill. She was coded to die to prevent her from respawning in the Bannered Mare, this is logical. 

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Oran D. Weaver wrote:

      ... By that logic anything at all in all of TES lore related to Skyrim's game mechanics means nothing. Ever. This includes the effects of every legendary weapon, the abilities of bosses, the effects of potions, everything. Unless you'd like to say they're somewhat inclusive in which case, it'd be easy as all hell to remove an urn from the hall of the dead. Especially in a quest where you're being morally abiguous. It adds to the argument if you know flat outright someone is lying.

      And, if the Thalmor don't keep secrets, why not have the information in their dossiers public? Of course they keep secrets

      Keep secrets from one another, the Thalmor would send justiciars instead of Redguards, seeing as Hammerfell is independent, and the Alik'r Warriors are the same warriors who kicked the Dominion to a standstill. She was coded to die to prevent her from respawning in the Bannered Mare, this is logical. 

      They can't. The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai removes military presence. Justiciars are military presence. They coded Arniel Gane to die and didn't leave any impact of him on everywhere else. The college members don't even remark about it. But, there's an urn in the Hall of the Dead for Saadia/Iman. That in mind, no, it is not logical to code her to die rather than simply cue a disable like they did for Kematu.

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    • Oran D. Weaver wrote:

      They can't. The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai removes military presence. Justiciars are military presence. They coded Arniel Gane to die and didn't leave any impact of him on everywhere else. The college members don't even remark about it. But, there's an urn in the Hall of the Dead for Saadia/Iman. That in mind, no, it is not logical to code her to die rather than simply cue a disable like they did for Kematu.

      So? Saadia is in Skyrim remember, so they can use Thalmor Justiciars to hunt her down, instead of Alik'r Warriors. You do realise that Winterhold doesn't have a Hall of the Dead, right? Unlike Kematu, Saadia is just a citizen, and unlike Kematu, Saadia isn't killed during the quest. Which would mean she's alive and well, but to prevent her from returing to the Bannered Mare they coded her to die.

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    • Oran D. Weaver wrote:
      Please look at the wiki located here. The urn shows up in one of two situations. If you kill her, OR if you side with Kematu. Skyrim is a unique game, so maybe in your game it didn't show up due to a bug. The wiki and many reports from players active on it have concluded the urn appears there rather consistently. Perhaps you have a mod that changes the circumstances of it appearing.

      I TESTED IN-GAME this damn urn and my game have the patch 1.9 installed and I play on XBOX. This urn only appear IF AND ONLY IF YOU KILL HER. That urn doesn't appear if you deliver Saadia to Kematu. I tested it with my 3 characters and the results are the same. My game is not bugged, I assure you.

      Also, if the Thalmor want Saadia dead, they would dispatch their own assassin just like they did two times already in the game: one to kill you and another one to kill Malborn.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Oran D. Weaver wrote:

      They can't. The Second Treaty of Stros M'kai removes military presence. Justiciars are military presence. They coded Arniel Gane to die and