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    • As the Divines seem to be incapacitated from the creation of the world, I woud still say pretty powerful. Probably would have to become a Divine yourself, which my dragonborn plans to. Ive already completed everything else in the world and saved the world more times than Tiber Septim, Hero of Kvatch, the other protagonists in the Elder Scrolls combined, so I might as well ascend to godhood. Dragonborn, God of Awesome.

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    • Cool

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    • You ask the wierdest and hardest things to answer. Also things that just generally make no sense. And I don't think anyone in TES lore could battle a divine.

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    • no body knows for sure.

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    • Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath so....................................

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    • Pretty sure you can't Wabbajak a Divine......

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    • Who knows.

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    • Assassin'sArt wrote:
      Pretty sure you can't Wabbajak a Divine......

      It is a almighty powerful artifact that contains a shard of Sheogorath himself.So it is basically a part of Sheogorath.As all Daedric artifacts are parts of their creators.

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    • A shard of one daedric prince isn't as powerful as a full divine.

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    • Daedric princes are immensley more powerful then a Aedra, a shard is still probably just as powerful as a Aedra.

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    • How do you figure that? Please, I can't wait to hear this.

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    • Aedra lost a large amount of their power (and invulneribility) during the creation of Mundus.Akatosh probably managed to manipulate time and regain his power (but not invulneribility) as shown in his ability to defeat Mehrunes Dagon.Also, Ancano was able to tap into the Eye of Magnus, which should not be possible or comprehensible to a mortal, as it was not meant for them.Therefore, Magnus must have lost alot of power which also affected the Eye.

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    • While the Eye of Magnus is connected to Magnus, I don't think it's Literally connected to him. And Daedric Princes more powerful than Divines? Ridiculous. Yes they are powerful, but that doesn't mean they have even more power than than the Divines. The Divines are so powerful, we only see them as planets when we look up into the night sky, our puny mortal minds trying to comprehend what we are seeing. We can fully percieve what a Daedric Prince looks like, like when Mehrunes Dagon came onto the mortal plane of Nirn. We didn't see him as a planet. That would just look silly. 

         Just because the are incapacitated doesn't mean their power is completly used up. You said it yourself. The Eye of Magnus is extrememly powerful, and if it is literally just an eyeball of a god, which it isn't, imagine what kind of power the whole thing has. Or how about the Red Mountain. Many speculate a power of Aedric origin started it, and that is pretty freaking huge, given that it almost destroyed Morrowind entirely. I have yet to see a Daedric Prince do that. Or how about create an entire world? Each Prince does have a realm in Oblivion, but they are a lot smaller in scale than compared to Nirn. Daedric Princes may be powerful, but the good ol divines are even more so. Akatosh was incapacitated and he managed to defeat Mehrunes Dagon through Martin Septim, In his Sleep! 

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    • Like a boss ^^^ This is all correct. I have no idea how you'd think that the Daedric Lords could ever beat the Divines. Nothing in lore suggests this.

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    •  The Divines are so powerful, we only see them as planets when we look up into the night sky, our puny mortal minds trying to comprehend what we are seeing. 

      Or how about create an entire world? Each Prince does have a realm in Oblivion, but they are a lot smaller in scale than compared to Nirn. Daedric Princes may be powerful, but the good ol divines are even more so. Akatosh was incapacitated and he managed to defeat Mehrunes Dagon through Martin Septim, In his Sleep! 

      1.Daedric Princes cannot be truly killed.They are still invulnerable.Akatosh simply banished Dagon.

      2.The divines pooled their combined power make Nirn.Each Daedric Prince made their realm on their own.Also, Molag Bal created his version of Nirn except it is pretty much inhabitable.Hermaeus Mora's Apocryhpa is literally endless, as it contains all knowledge.(After Storn gives up his secrets, which is canon.) The Deadlands are bigger then Tamriel as far as I know.

      3.And you are forgetting Akatosh is the god of Time.He can warp time, regaining most of his power, theoretticaly.

      4. Second era, Molag Bal literally plunged Tamriel into utter chaos.He had a infinite army of undead werewolves at his disposal and literally almost carried Tamriel into Coldharbour.An entire continent was nearly lifted out of Mundus and carried into Coldharbour.And who stopped him?Mortals.Why?He didn't even bother manifesting himself and just sent anchors down.If Divines are so powerful, why did mortals need the Amulet of Kings?

      5.Artifacts.The Skeleton Key can open any lock, physical, mental or anything.It is more then likely the most powerful object to ever exist.The Wabbajack is based on mortals themselves, it is literally a part of mortals as well as Sheogorath.Why?Mortals are random, and everyone has a bit of madness in them.

      6.The planets are a Dwemer drawing of what they imagined the Divines are like.In truth, the Divines tore a hole in Mundus and escaped to Aetherius, a completely different realm.The sun is that hole.

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    • No...

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    • Wow.

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    • Assassin'sArt wrote:
      No...

      Best you got?

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    • Man of steak wrote:
       The Divines are so powerful, we only see them as planets when we look up into the night sky, our puny mortal minds trying to comprehend what we are seeing. 

      Or how about create an entire world? Each Prince does have a realm in Oblivion, but they are a lot smaller in scale than compared to Nirn. Daedric Princes may be powerful, but the good ol divines are even more so. Akatosh was incapacitated and he managed to defeat Mehrunes Dagon through Martin Septim, In his Sleep! 

      1.Daedric Princes cannot be truly killed.They are still invulnerable.Akatosh simply banished Dagon.

      2.The divines pooled their combined power make Nirn.Each Daedric Prince made their realm on their own.Also, Molag Bal created his version of Nirn except it is pretty much inhabitable.Hermaeus Mora's Apocryhpa is literally endless, as it contains all knowledge.(After Storn gives up his secrets, which is canon.) The Deadlands are bigger then Tamriel as far as I know.

      3.And you are forgetting Akatosh is the god of Time.He can warp time, regaining most of his power, theoretticaly.

      4. Second era, Molag Bal literally plunged Tamriel into utter chaos.He had a infinite army of undead werewolves at his disposal and literally almost carried Tamriel into Coldharbour.An entire continent was nearly lifted out of Mundus and carried into Coldharbour.And who stopped him?Mortals.Why?He didn't even bother manifesting himself and just sent anchors down.If Divines are so powerful, why did mortals need the Amulet of Kings?

      5.Artifacts.The Skeleton Key can open any lock, physical, mental or anything.It is more then likely the most powerful object to ever exist.The Wabbajack is based on mortals themselves, it is literally a part of mortals as well as Sheogorath.Why?Mortals are random, and everyone has a bit of madness in them.

      6.The planets are a Dwemer drawing of what they imagined the Divines are like.In truth, the Divines tore a hole in Mundus and escaped to Aetherius, a completely different realm.The sun is that hole.

      Well Im about to tear a sun sized hole in your logic.

      1) "Daedra don't die." Uh, yeah, we kinew that already. They're immortal. So? So are the divines.

      2) The divines didn't just create Nirn, they created Mundus. All of it, which is basically the entire universe according to lore.

      3) Yeah, Akatosh regained his power. What's your point? I thought the Daedra were supposed to be MORE powerful in your point of view, not less. You just contradicted your own argument.

      4) Uh, let's wait until TESO actually comes out before we make assumptions, hmm? Besides, yeah, so Molag Bal has anchors? Big wupp. If Molag Bal is so powerful, how can a tiny amulet stop all of them from getting inside Nirn? Its IMBUED WITH THE POWER OF AKATOSH, who is a boss by the way. And the mortals don;t need the amulet any more because it was destroyed in the Oblivion Crisis.

      5) Yeah, so the Daedra have artifacts? So wha? That doesn;t mean the Wabbajack is the world's most powerful weapon or the Skeleton Key, which can open locks, (OPEN LOCKS?! OMG!!! THAT"S SO POWERFUL! THE WAY ITS JUST A LOCKPICK THAT DOESN"T BREAK!!! OH THE HUMANITY!) is not the world's most powerful artifact. What about Auriel's Bow? That was pretty awesome. Or how about the Staff of Magnus? Pretty awesome. OR the Amulet of Kings for that matter. Able to hold off all the daedra from coming into Nirn on their own accord and Akatosh is still incapactiated. I know he can warp time and all, but if he was incapacitated, how could he regain his strength by warping time? He wouldn't be able to do that because he had no power left, and even still he is ableto hold off all the daedra from Nirn in his sleep. Go Akatosh, go.

      6) The Dwemer probably knew a whole lot more about the Divines then you do ,good sir. These people stood up Azura with a box. I think they could figure out what the planets were. Also, no, the divines didn;t rise up into the sky and tore a hole into Aeitherus or however you spell it. It was Magnus, and the other dudes like spirits or something followed him and made the stars.
      So you see. The divines are ten times more powerful, infinityl more powerful than the daedra could ever hope to be.

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    • Go get em

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    • Well Im about to tear a sun sized hole in your logic.

      1) "Daedra don't die." Uh, yeah, we kinew that already. They're immortal. So? So are the divines.

      2) The divines didn't just create Nirn, they created Mundus. All of it, which is basically the entire universe according to lore.

      3) Yeah, Akatosh regained his power. What's your point? I thought the Daedra were supposed to be MORE powerful in your point of view, not less. You just contradicted your own argument.

      4) Uh, let's wait until TESO actually comes out before we make assumptions, hmm? Besides, yeah, so Molag Bal has anchors? Big wupp. If Molag Bal is so powerful, how can a tiny amulet stop all of them from getting inside Nirn? Its IMBUED WITH THE POWER OF AKATOSH, who is a boss by the way. And the mortals don;t need the amulet any more because it was destroyed in the Oblivion Crisis.

      5) Yeah, so the Daedra have artifacts? So wha? That doesn;t mean the Wabbajack is the world's most powerful weapon or the Skeleton Key, which can open locks, (OPEN LOCKS?! OMG!!! THAT"S SO POWERFUL! THE WAY ITS JUST A LOCKPICK THAT DOESN"T BREAK!!! OH THE HUMANITY!) is not the world's most powerful artifact. What about Auriel's Bow? That was pretty awesome. Or how about the Staff of Magnus? Pretty awesome. OR the Amulet of Kings for that matter. Able to hold off all the daedra from coming into Nirn on their own accord and Akatosh is still incapactiated. I know he can warp time and all, but if he was incapacitated, how could he regain his strength by warping time? He wouldn't be able to do that because he had no power left, and even still he is ableto hold off all the daedra from Nirn in his sleep. Go Akatosh, go.

      6) The Dwemer probably knew a whole lot more about the Divines then you do ,good sir. These people stood up Azura with a box. I think they could figure out what the planets were. Also, no, the divines didn;t rise up into the sky and tore a hole into Aeitherus or however you spell it. It was Magnus, and the other dudes like spirits or something followed him and made the stars.
      So you see. The divines are ten times more powerful, infinityl more powerful than the daedra could ever hope to be.

      1.Divines can die.They are not Invulnerable.

      2.Nevertheless, my point about Apocrypha still stands.It is infinite, and Mundus is not.

      3.Facepalm.I said Akatosh regained his power.Mehrunes Dagon is a little bitch though.However, Jyggalag, Hermaeus and Boethiah are the most powerful as I understand.Also, Boethiah swallowed Trinmiac.Trinmiac.The Champion of Auriel and the strongest, possibly most powerful god.

      4.Assumptions?The game is based around stopping him from dragging Tamriel into Coldharbour.Also, in trailers, the portals are below the clouds.

      5.Skeleton Key.You seem to have misread.The skeleton key can literally open a door to anything.Knowledge, loot, oblivion, Aetherius, perhaps even the Void.Tell me that isn't powerful.The staff of Magnus absorbs magicka.Fucking whoop-dee-doo.Akatosh.Sleeping?Where does that come from?Warping time.I said the Divines lost power, not all of it.

      6.Aetherius is the realm from which the divines originate, they are connected to it like Daedra to Oblivion and they live in it.

      Infinitely more powerful.Wow.That statement just deserves so much praise.

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    • Man of steak wrote:

      Well Im about to tear a sun sized hole in your logic.

      1) "Daedra don't die." Uh, yeah, we kinew that already. They're immortal. So? So are the divines.

      2) The divines didn't just create Nirn, they created Mundus. All of it, which is basically the entire universe according to lore.

      3) Yeah, Akatosh regained his power. What's your point? I thought the Daedra were supposed to be MORE powerful in your point of view, not less. You just contradicted your own argument.

      4) Uh, let's wait until TESO actually comes out before we make assumptions, hmm? Besides, yeah, so Molag Bal has anchors? Big wupp. If Molag Bal is so powerful, how can a tiny amulet stop all of them from getting inside Nirn? Its IMBUED WITH THE POWER OF AKATOSH, who is a boss by the way. And the mortals don;t need the amulet any more because it was destroyed in the Oblivion Crisis.

      5) Yeah, so the Daedra have artifacts? So wha? That doesn;t mean the Wabbajack is the world's most powerful weapon or the Skeleton Key, which can open locks, (OPEN LOCKS?! OMG!!! THAT"S SO POWERFUL! THE WAY ITS JUST A LOCKPICK THAT DOESN"T BREAK!!! OH THE HUMANITY!) is not the world's most powerful artifact. What about Auriel's Bow? That was pretty awesome. Or how about the Staff of Magnus? Pretty awesome. OR the Amulet of Kings for that matter. Able to hold off all the daedra from coming into Nirn on their own accord and Akatosh is still incapactiated. I know he can warp time and all, but if he was incapacitated, how could he regain his strength by warping time? He wouldn't be able to do that because he had no power left, and even still he is ableto hold off all the daedra from Nirn in his sleep. Go Akatosh, go.

      6) The Dwemer probably knew a whole lot more about the Divines then you do ,good sir. These people stood up Azura with a box. I think they could figure out what the planets were. Also, no, the divines didn;t rise up into the sky and tore a hole into Aeitherus or however you spell it. It was Magnus, and the other dudes like spirits or something followed him and made the stars.
      So you see. The divines are ten times more powerful, infinityl more powerful than the daedra could ever hope to be.

      1.Divines can die.They are not Invulnerable.

      2.Nevertheless, my point about Apocrypha still stands.It is infinite, and Mundus is not.

      3.Facepalm.I said Akatosh regained his power.Mehrunes Dagon is a little bitch though.However, Jyggalag, Hermaeus and Boethiah are the most powerful as I understand.Also, Boethiah swallowed Trinmiac.Trinmiac.The Champion of Auriel and the strongest, possibly most powerful god.

      4.Assumptions?The game is based around stopping him from dragging Tamriel into Coldharbour.Also, in trailers, the portals are below the clouds.

      5.Skeleton Key.You seem to have misread.The skeleton key can literally open a door to anything.Knowledge, loot, oblivion, Aetherius, perhaps even the Void.Tell me that isn't powerful.The staff of Magnus absorbs magicka.Fucking whoop-dee-doo.Akatosh.Sleeping?Where does that come from?Warping time.I said the Divines lost power, not all of it.

      6.Aetherius is the realm from which the divines originate, they are connected to it like Daedra to Oblivion and they live in it.

      Infinitely more powerful.Wow.That statement just deserves so much praise.

      Oh did you say something? I wasn't paying much attention. Sorry about that. Anyway, down to business.

      1) I have only heard of Lorkhan dying, but he was a special case. The other divines, only knocked out. Down, but not out.

      2) Who is to say Mundus isn't infinite. Have you travled throughout all of it? N.O.P.E. While no can make the assumption it is infinite, one cannot deny it either. And As to Mora, I agree, his realm is infinite, but it could be an illusion to make you walk in circles, so it would techniclly go on forever. Probably not, but then again, most of his realm is covered by that goo. Probably not that hard to make. The only thing you can stand on are the teeny little islands of books. You have to use a dragon to fly around the place.

      3) Oh so now we are limiting the Daedric count to just three? When you said that they Princes are more powerful, I thought you meant ALL of them, not just Jyygalyg, who wasn't strong enough to defend himself from the others, Mora, who all he does is know stuff and his fighting strength has never been tested to make the claim he is stronger than a divine or not, and Boethia, who apparently tranformed Trinimac into Malacath, that is only according to the Aldmeri Pantheon ideology. Even if it was true, Trinimac was walking amongst Nirn, and since he was away from his home, the Aedra realm, he was probably substantially weakened. And the way Boethia tranformed him into malacath wasn't by power, it was by deception. Boethia tricked Trinimac to walk into his mouth. Read  that up on "The Chaned Ones," on Trinimac's page on this wiki. Also, if you claim Mehrunes Dagon is a wimp at least he is the only one that actually does something instead of just toying with mere mortals.

      4) True, True, but we still don't know the extent of that power. And as Nirn still stands in Nirn instead of Coldharbor today, it is safe to assume we defeated him. A Daedric Prince, with whom you claim to be stronger, defeated by mere mortals?! INCONCIEVABLE!!!

      5) I have yet to see the Skeleton Key being able to unlck any doors to portals with the exception of the door specifically made for the key by Nocturnal. No where does it say it can open the doors to Aethirus. In fact, you might have dug into it a little bit to deep. While an artifact that can open portals would certaintly be powerful, whose to say the Aedra don't have an even more powerful artifact? Besides, don't disrespect the Staff of Magnus. Draining Magic, a base component of Nirn, is a very powerful thing. IT sure beats opening doors to get out of picking it yourself. Also, I know you never said that the Divines were sleeping. I did. Because that is what they are doing. I don't see them activly doing anything god like. So we can reasonably assume they are sleeping. And again, what is your point? You say they havn't ost all power. So are you agreeing with me by saying they are stronger, or not?

      6) You affirm my 3rd point about Trinimac with this argument. So, it can be argued that it's not about power, it's about catching your opponent when they are away from where they are strongest.

       I think that line does deserve some praise. It's sure mopping the floor with your logic.

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    • I think we should tone down the cursing. This is a forum of open discussion not a troll site. But honestly the Madman is covering this well. Lets just try not to make this a personal fight.

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    • I think both have valid points, just gonna bring a few things out here. Didn't the daedric prince Jyggalag die, yea he is sheogorath... But still?

      And about Mundus and which is longest and which is Infinitestest (idk) Remember how long it is isn't all, everything from what have happed to what is in it is also what is created.

      I side with the Aedra, but i do think we might never actually see a showdown between the two :P

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    • Jyggalag was cursed, weakened severly by being his opposite for a 1000 years.Hero of Kvatch just beat the madness out of him, lifting the curse.Only lesser Daedra can die, and they have to be in there native plane of Oblivion.Oh and the Skeleton Key.I don't know, maybe gameplay purposes?Listen to Karliah."It can open a door to anything or any place."

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    • As i do know it can open portals and about anything if it doesn't "require key" (Comedy)

      I don't think it can open way to someone mind, or atleast you'd have to be very powerful and have alot of knowledge about the key to make it do it. So it could by no chance do it alone.

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    • The key in the hands of a very powerful mind might be able to open anything.And it could do it alone, but it needs a mortal to use it.The mind unlocks the key, and the key unlocks the whatever you want to open.

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    • Yes, but only if the Mortal would even be able to open or walk into this place.

      Anyway i do not think other daedric princes would let you walk into their realm un-invited without trying to test you or try to banish you out. Also a mortal could also die from trying any of this, the things he might see or the trickery daedra being tricking him and all that daedrish stuff!

      This is a fantasy after all. Everything is possible.

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    • That last line.True words.

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    • Even yet, according to the established lore, we are yet to see the Skeleton Key's treu capablilities. If it really can open someones mind or portals, we need to see it. Otherwise, my argument still stands. I don't oppose the idea entirely, just until it is shown it can be done. But let's stay on topic here. Let's leave the Skeleton Key in the "To be decided" section, hmm? (Also, if you want to here any more ranting, I have a blog rant series on this website called, 'You know what really grinds my wabbajacks?')

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    • (Why not "You know what really grinds my Staff of Magnus?)

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    • Don't get snippy. I am a fan of the Daedra, I think they are cool and all, but I just don't think they are more powerful than the Aedra. Besides, anything with Sheogorath slapped on it will draw some attention. Plus its catchy.

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    • @Madman97 The Aedra CAN be killed and are weaker than the Daedra. The two basically shared the same status until who we know as Aedra today were tricked by lorkhan or accepted his plan to create Mundus (a realm, not the universe!) which required a lot of their power, making them kill-able. The Daedra did NOT want to help so they stayed at full power. Akatosh did NOT regain his power, he showed obvious signs of fatigue and weariness after Mehrunes Dagons' defeat in the oblvion crisis (you could see him gasping for air after the fight!). Even if the Aedra are kill-able, it's darn near impossible.

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    • Well...................Alduin is a Aedra..............And the Dovahkiin defeated him.Not killed, simply because of the prophecy.

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    • Alduin is not an Aedra, rather a deity in the Nordic pantheon.

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    • He is a Et'Ada though, so he is technically a divine.He is not a quote-on-quote "Aedra", but he is still a god, and thus deserves recognition in this arguement.

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    • Well I can accept that but I deny any claim that he created Mundus. He was created by Akatosh so I can't say he's a full divine either. Maybe Demi-Divine?

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    • No....He is a full god as he has a role to play in the destiny of Mundus, which only Et' Ada and the 5 protaganists currently have.

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    • Okay... Just read the Et'Ada page and I couldn't find his name. Could you elaborate further? The Et'Ada I've read about played a role in the creation of Mundus, not its fate.

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    • My 2 cents: "What MadMax remembers from reading books"

      1. The Aedra can be killed while the Daedra can only be banished to their planes and THEN destroyed there. If you follow them there that is . And that only applies to the weaker ones.

      2. 

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    • Saying Alduin is a divine is like saying all the dragons are divines. Just because they have divine origins does not make them divine, such as man. Man was ceated indirectly by the intervention of Lorkhan, so that would make it so humans were divines. Alduin is simply a biproduct of Akatosh, but that does not mae him a god, though his power seems to suggest so. The only example of an Aedra dying is Lorkhan as well, as far as I know anyway, I may be missing something. But, for the real question for this page, you would have to be plenty powerful to fight an Aedra, much more so to kill one. If this is reduced to a simple, "Who is better" argument, start a new thread, "Are the Daedra more powerful than the Aedra."

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Saying Alduin is a divine is like saying all the dragons are divines. Just because they have divine origins does not make them divine, such as man. Man was ceated indirectly by the intervention of Lorkhan, so that would make it so humans were divines. Alduin is simply a biproduct of Akatosh, but that does not mae him a god, though his power seems to suggest so. The only example of an Aedra dying is Lorkhan as well, as far as I know anyway, I may be missing something. But, for the real question for this page, you would have to be plenty powerful to fight an Aedra, much more so to kill one. If this is reduced to a simple, "Who is better" argument, start a new thread, "Are the Daedra more powerful than the Aedra."

      He's not a divine, but he is a Nordic God.

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    • No offense to Nords, (I am one) but they arn't the sharpest tools in the shed, often respecting gods of power over reason and logic, as befitting of a warlie people. Anyone displaying great power could possibly be deified as a god, and I think Alduin fits this description. Kind of like Talos, except I think he actually is a Divine.

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    • True, but Mara was originally Nordic, as was Dibella.

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    • Well Mara was worhsiped in many other cultures, such as the Snow Elves I believe, a race a lot older than the Nords.

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    • Let me set this straight.

      The aedra can be killed as proven by lorkans death the reason why they can be killed is because lorkan tricked them into creating mundus taking MOST of there power this would caused them to turn most of there immortality into true power which they are STILL weaker than the daedra. You can argue "Oh well akatosh defeated merush dagon" Well dagon created god knows how many portals destoryed most of tamriels city invaded the imperial city he also made his most trusted advisor his own realm! When have the aedra ever gave there high priests a realm? NEVER The aedra can't do much more but give blessing. Now you can argue "Talos is a aedra and he didn't create mundus" That is correct but it would take even more power for the already existing aedra to make a mortal a divine meaning he would be weaker than the other Aedra I don't see one of the eight divines using all of there divine power to make talos a full god because that would kill the said divine. 

      Alright lets put this to the test. Akatosh defeated dagon correct? Well maybe akatosh is the strongest of divines (Of cause he is he's head of them) So I'd like to see who would win Julianos or Dagon, Mara or Shergorath. To name a few, Most of the aedra became so weak that they can't even manafest themselfs. Akatosh was a exception as martin used power from when he was strongest (Amulet of kings) This basicly locked oblivion gates from openning but it didn't stop the daedra giving artifacts (Morrowind,Daggerfall and Arena) It also didn't stop them from communicating and giving immense power to mortals.

      As you see mankar cameron was giving his realm and his power before Uriel Septim died meaning dagon could still use his power TO create a portal but a ritual most of been performed. Big woop! But wait a minute where did Mankar cameron get the blood of a divine from..? Hmmmm He most of had to perform this ritual to as he obviously can't use the portal at will (He had a sacrifice for god sake) Bla bla bla oblivion stuff over. After the amulet of kings has been destoryed no oblivion gates but how do you see nocturnal? The lore dictates that the amulets of kings prevents daedric princes from entering nirn, But nocturnal did. Does this mean akatosh's blessing lost power during that period? Even though his blessing carried on after the amulets of kings into his statue. 

      Then you can say "Why doesn't dagon manafest again?" Well dagon can't it normaly takes hundred to thousands of years for a deadra to regain there body power. You can now say "That means they are weak." My responce would be this. Well if dagon killed akatosh in the oblivion crisis akatosh would be gone dead no more akatosh bye bye. Because aedra aren't immortal but daedra and there spirts are just because the physical body of a deadra has been killed (Banished in fact) doesn't mean they're weak. They can recreate them selfs invade realms creating realms of infinitive power and lose almost no power. 

      This should end the arguement daedra are more powerful than aedra.

      ALL HAIL SHEROGORATH! 

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    • Finally someone else that accepts the fact that the Aedra are weaker than Daedra. I believe that nocturnal can only physically manifest in the twilight sepulcher, and I also believe that the argument of Talos being Aedra is invalid. Aedra translates to "ancestor" in the language of the Aldmer. Talos did NOT did not create Mundus so I classify him as divine and nothing else.

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    • Rovakhiin wrote:
      Finally someone else that accepts the fact that the Aedra are weaker than Daedra. I believe that nocturnal can only physically manifest in the twilight sepulcher, and I also believe that the argument of Talos being Aedra is invalid. Aedra translates to "ancestor" in the language of the Aldmer. Talos did NOT did not create Mundus so I classify him as divine and nothing else.

      Talos is one of the nine divines.He is not Aedra, as you said.He is also not Et'Ada, as he is not "original."He is just a divine.

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    • Ah sorry about that, Mistake on my part my talos lore is a bit rusty.

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    • Also, Emperor Johnson, best way to say it, amazing way to prove Daedra are more powerful, but you are forgetting one thing.In dragonborn, Hermaeus Mora manifests in Skaal Village, his tentacles from Miraaks gear work anywhere, his powers work anywhere, and due to Amulet of Kings, that shouldn't happen.

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    • Ah yes, This is one of the things that proves the amulet of kings only prevented a full fledge invasion but as you can see it drains akatosh' power in the battle of dagon you saw the avatar of akatosh looking tired. It would mean he lost power.

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    • Actually, it was supposed to stop any Daedra not summoned by mortals to not be able to materilize.Daedra at Dagon's shrine, Hermaeus, Nocturnal..

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    • Aedra could do much more than just give a blessing I imagine but they choose not to because they really don't care. Aedra are divines... Daedra are lords and princes. The Daedra are in no way weak, but the Aedra are superior.

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    • Aedra are one half of the Et' Ada, and the Divines are the ones that are worshipped.Et' Ada are original spirits, Aedra and Daedra.Aedra sacrificed power to create Mundus, and are now much weaker then before.Aedra are Anu and Padomays mixed blood, Daedra are Padomays pure, untainted blood.

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    • Emperor Johnson, I guess you have the propper evidence and proof of Akatosh losing power, so I will adopt your theory until more info is released on the matter. The battle with Dagon probably weakened him, but I heard somewhere in Oblivion... Either Martin or Ocato, just somebody claimed that Daedra were banished forever from Mundus... Maybe it's my imagination... Or Martin's sacrifice merely prolonged Mundus' existence... Maybe this is what the series is building up to! The second Great War with another oblivion invasion... Interesting... I'm not ignoring man of steaks facts either... Nocturnal was summoned... Atronachs are summoned... But Mehrunes summoned his Dremora...

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    • Seeing as how both Anu and Padomay were pure I don't think of the Aedra as having unpure blood. Anu was the more powerful of the two was he not? Wouldn't this make the Aedra more powerful?

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    • No.They were equal in power.Padomay represented change, fluidity.Anu represented order and stasis.The mixed blood is "impure" as it is mixed.Choclate with grass in it is "impure.".Padomays pure blood created the Daedra, and the mixed "impure" blood the Aedra.However more of Anu's blood was in the mix, and that is why Aedra represent order and stasis, and Daedra are fully Padomaic, which is why they represent change and fluidity.Therefore "power" comes from change, if it happens or not.No change, Aedra gain power.Change, Daedra gain power.All of the events in TES series so far change the world, so it is possible that Daedra have gained massive power which is how they broke the oblivion barrier.

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    • Daaamn, you guys are swaying ME on something....

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    • Dang Man of steak you raging war.

      Thats badass.

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    • Spyrocks wrote:
      Dang Man of steak you raging war.

      Thats badass.

      Actually I'm just drugging every- wait, what?

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    • Thats crazy man.

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    • To answer the question, you have to be more powerful than a divine.

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    • Not good enough of an answer.

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    • Not to mention Dovahkiin beat Alduins shit in.He is a divine, not one of the nine divines (worshipped ones.) but still a divine.

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    • He's not a divine.

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    • He is.He is the Nordic God of destruction.

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    • "There isn't a good enough answer"

      Well, there wont be until we find out for sure and actually fight one of the 9 or atleast hear who and how someone was able to beat one. So this thread will not gain anything but a Aedra VS Daedra fight.

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    • That doesn't make him a divine, though. It makes him divine, but not a divine.

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    • Pickleseller wrote:
      That doesn't make him a divine, though. It makes him divine, but not a divine.

      ..........................................He is not one of the "nine divines" but he is a divine.

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    • That's like saying Boethiah is a divine, because she's worshipped in Morrowind.

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    • Thats like saying Magnus isn't a divine since he isn't worshipped.

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    • Anyway, the dov are a race of beastfolk, not Aedra, and not Daedra. And that's not what I'm saying. You're saying if someone is worshipped then they're a divine.

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    • What?Divine refers to powers, purposes and morals incomprehensible to all living things save themselves.Is Alduin evil?No, because his morals and purposes are different and incomprehensible.And Dov are not beastfolk.They are not related to Elhnofey or Hist, so they are their own line.All Et' Ada are divine.The Nine Divines are the worshipped ones, Boethiah is divine as it's morals, purposes and powers are beyond mortal comphrehension.

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      What?Divine refers to powers, purposes and morals incomprehensible to all living things save themselves.Is Alduin evil?No, because his morals and purposes are different and incomprehensible.And Dov are not beastfolk.They are not related to Elhnofey or Hist, so they are their own line.All Et' Ada are divine.The Nine Divines are the worshipped ones, Boethiah is divine as it's morals, purposes and powers are beyond mortal comphrehension.

      Here.

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    • 1. then the wiki needs to be sorted out.Dragons are native to Akavir, were direct creations of Akatosh and are under the Akaviri section in the link box.

      2.What do Dov in general have to do with Alduin being a god?Is Alduin evil?No.Is he good?No.Is he neutral?No.Because mortals can't understand his divine purpose.And, if he is just a Dragon.Alduin, Y u no give me soul?

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      What?Divine refers to powers, purposes and morals incomprehensible to all living things save themselves.Is Alduin evil?No, because his morals and purposes are different and incomprehensible.And Dov are not beastfolk.They are not related to Elhnofey or Hist, so they are their own line.All Et' Ada are divine.The Nine Divines are the worshipped ones, Boethiah is divine as it's morals, purposes and powers are beyond mortal comphrehension.

      Alduin is not Et'Ada. The Et'Ada created Mundus. By claiming that Alduin is Et'Ada, you're saying Alduin gave up his powers to create Mundus which he did NOT. The Et'Ada are exactly the same as Divines, spirits that sacrificed power to create Mundus. Alduin is the firstborn of an Et'Ada, Akatosh. This does not make him a Divine or Et'Ada. He is included in the Nordic Pantheon to play a role in the Dragonborn prophecy. Gaetting facts straight, Boethiah is not a Divine and never will be. He/She did not give up his/her powers to create Mundus so he/she is not a Divine/Et'Ada.

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    • I didn't say Alduin was Et' Ada, even so Et' Ada refers to the original spirits, not divines.Then the Et'Ada are split.Aedra, who created Mundus, and Daedra, who had no role in creating Mundus.

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    • Title:                                                                                                                       How powerful do you have to be to fight a divine?


      you don't even have to be powerful... fighting a divine can't be, they have no physical form, they are like spirits...

      also, they created everything, so why would they make something that can actually kill them?

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    • ......................................No.They created Mundus and Mortals.Assuming this is the Aedra.Also, they are not spirits.The can physically manifest in Aetherius, but they are to weak to do so in Mundus.

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      They created Mundus and Mortals.

      what? (i know they did, but... that is not related to what i said)

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    • You said they created everything.

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    • AlxCj wrote:
      Man of steak wrote:
      They created Mundus and Mortals.
      what? (i know they did, but... that is not related to what i said)

      You said they created everything.

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      You said they created everything.


      yes, they did, not just mundus and people... they are the reason why everything is there, i don't think the sweetroll i just ate was accidentally created by a mini elder scrolls big-bang...

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    • Oblivion, Aetherius, The void.

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      I didn't say Alduin was Et' Ada, even so Et' Ada refers to the original spirits, not divines.Then the Et'Ada are split.Aedra, who created Mundus, and Daedra, who had no role in creating Mundus.

      Oh, sorry I misinterpreted the two, I thought they were different terms. They were original spirits who were divided... The ones who created Mundus and the ones who wouldn't help. The Divines are part of the Et'Ada, not the original spirts themselves. Lorkhan, Anu and Padomay were included too.

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    • Rovakhiin wrote:
      Man of steak wrote:
      I didn't say Alduin was Et' Ada, even so Et' Ada refers to the original spirits, not divines.Then the Et'Ada are split.Aedra, who created Mundus, and Daedra, who had no role in creating Mundus.
      Oh, sorry I misinterpreted the two, I thought they were different terms. They were original spirits who were divided... The ones who created Mundus and the ones who wouldn't help. The Divines are part of the Et'Ada, not the original spirts themselves. Lorkhan, Anu and Padomay were included too.

      Anu and Padomay do not fall into those groups, however they can be classified as the "Creators" of the Aedra(Anu) and Daedra(Padomay.)Lorkhan is an Aedra.

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      Rovakhiin wrote:
      Man of steak wrote:
      I didn't say Alduin was Et' Ada, even so Et' Ada refers to the original spirits, not divines.Then the Et'Ada are split.Aedra, who created Mundus, and Daedra, who had no role in creating Mundus.
      Oh, sorry I misinterpreted the two, I thought they were different terms. They were original spirits who were divided... The ones who created Mundus and the ones who wouldn't help. The Divines are part of the Et'Ada, not the original spirts themselves. Lorkhan, Anu and Padomay were included too.
      Anu and Padomay do not fall into those groups, however they can be classified as the "Creators" of the Aedra(Anu) and Daedra(Padomay.)Lorkhan is an Aedra.

      This is one confusing topic to me... I know how Anu and Padomay created the Daedra and Aedra, but I thought they would also use their power... I need to pay more attention to the Et'Ada wiki page. That was an intersting debate.

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      Oblivion, Aetherius, The void.


      everything started with just the Arbius (Void), right? so yes, the void isn't divine-made, but...

      ¿is Aetherius and Oblivion made by a divine?

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    • Anu has not actually intervened since the Et' Ada were created.Padomay/Sithis had intercourse with the Night Mother, who sacrificed her children and the Dark Brotherhood was created.Not even the Et' Ada know where Anu is.Padomay hasn't intervened since the Night Mother, which was in the Second Era.

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    • AlxCj wrote:
      Man of steak wrote:
      Oblivion, Aetherius, The void.

      everything started with just the Arbius (Void), right? so yes, the void isn't divine-made, but...

      ¿is Aetherius and Oblivion made by a divine?

      No.There was space, Anu and Padomay.Sithis created the Void, fought Anu and Padomays unmixed blood created Oblivion and the Daedra.The mixed blood from both had more of Anu's blood in it, creating the Aedra and Aetherius.

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    • Well now it seems we have moved on from daedra vs. Aedra and on to is Alduin a god? How quaint. Anyway, going back to the ol argument of the Daedra vs. Aedra, just to show you guys something, going off of what Emperor Johnson said, where does it say it takes all of a Divine's power to make a Divine? In fact, there is one myth of Arkay, God of Death I believe, on how he came to be a god as well. Granted it might not be true, but it is worth noting. In this tale, he is a mortal man and he finds a book that tells him the secrets of life and death. As soon as he is beginning to understand it, he falls ill. On the verge of Death, Mara came to him and offered him a choice. Try to teach mankind everything you know and become a Divine, or die a mortals death. Obviously, Arkay chose the god choice. Now again, it might not be true, but for now let's just assume it is. If this happened, then it looks like  Mara easily made Arkay a god, so maybe it is not as power consuming as Emperor Johnson thinks, therefore, making Talos a god wouldn't actually be that hard, or maybe the Aedra have more power than we know of. 

          It is mere speculation, but so is everything else on this thread. We can never know for sure until we actually see an Aedra battle a Daedra. Onto his observation of Nocturnal bypassing the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion. She wasn't there for very long was she? So maybe the barrier still works, but Daedra can only still bypass the barrier for only a short period of time. That would explain why summoned dremora or atronachs dissapear after a short while. But the barrier works all the same. It prevents full fledged invasion, as the daedra can only stay for only a tiny bit of time. I'll call it the "Daedra Time theory," and refer to it as such in the future.

          This theory refutes Emperor johnsons last paragraph. But I do agree with his All hail sheogorath statement. I am a madman after all.

       But, onto the new argument, Alduin is a god. I'm not sure what to think of this one. While Akatosh claims to be the first born of Akatosh, he is not directly related to him, but he feels it is his birthright to conquer Tamriel. When he claims himself a deity, one must not take the literally all the time. Anyone can claim they are of divine origins. When Ma'Iq the Liar says "Some say Alduin is Akatosh, some say Ma'iq is a liar. Don't believe any of these things." This sheds more light on the situation. Anyone with considerable power can claim they are a god. Heck, the dragonborn defeated Alduin, so we can claim we are gods. So, the deification of Alduin is most likely false, with Alduin playing off Akatosh's depiction as a dragon to make himself seem more powerful and claim rght to rule the world.

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    • And with Alduin not yeilding a soul, remember, he is unique, even among dragons. Perhaps his soul was banished to another place for the time being before he might return. He is of considerable power after all.

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      AlxCj wrote:
      Man of steak wrote:
      Oblivion, Aetherius, The void.

      everything started with just the Arbius (Void), right? so yes, the void isn't divine-made, but...

      ¿is Aetherius and Oblivion made by a divine?

      No.There was space, Anu and Padomay.Sithis created the Void, fought Anu and Padomays unmixed blood created Oblivion and the Daedra.The mixed blood from both had more of Anu's blood in it, creating the Aedra and Aetherius.


      And that space is named Aurbis...

      but i did not know about that blood thing... anyways for me Padonay and Anu are divines (even if they don't)


      copied from the wiki:

      The Elder Scrolls universe began as a single, formless void called the Aurbis.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Well now it seems we have moved on from daedra vs. Aedra and on to is Alduin a god? How quaint. Anyway, going back to the ol argument of the Daedra vs. Aedra, just to show you guys something, going off of what Emperor Johnson said, where does it say it takes all of a Divine's power to make a Divine? In fact, there is one myth of Arkay, God of Death I believe, on how he came to be a god as well. Granted it might not be true, but it is worth noting. In this tale, he is a mortal man and he finds a book that tells him the secrets of life and death. As soon as he is beginning to understand it, he falls ill. On the verge of Death, Mara came to him and offered him a choice. Try to teach mankind everything you know and become a Divine, or die a mortals death. Obviously, Arkay chose the god choice. Now again, it might not be true, but for now let's just assume it is. If this happened, then it looks like  Mara easily made Arkay a god, so maybe it is not as power consuming as Emperor Johnson thinks, therefore, making Talos a god wouldn't actually be that hard, or maybe the Aedra have more power than we know of. 

        It is mere speculation, but so is everything else on this thread. We can never know for sure until we actually see an Aedra battle a Daedra. Onto his observation of Nocturnal bypassing the barrier between Nirn and Oblivion. She wasn't there for very long was she? So maybe the barrier still works, but Daedra can only still bypass the barrier for only a short period of time. That would explain why summoned dremora or atronachs dissapear after a short while. But the barrier works all the same. It prevents full fledged invasion, as the daedra can only stay for only a tiny bit of time. I'll call it the "Daedra Time theory," and refer to it as such in the future.

        This theory refutes Emperor johnsons last paragraph. But I do agree with his All hail sheogorath statement. I am a madman after all.

      But, onto the new argument, Alduin is a god. I'm not sure what to think of this one. While Akatosh claims to be the first born of Akatosh, he is not directly related to him, but he feels it is his birthright to conquer Tamriel. When he claims himself a deity, one must not take the literally all the time. Anyone can claim they are of divine origins. When Ma'Iq the Liar says "Some say Alduin is Akatosh, some say Ma'iq is a liar. Don't believe any of these things." This sheds more light on the situation. Anyone with considerable power can claim they are a god. Heck, the dragonborn defeated Alduin, so we can claim we are gods. So, the deification of Alduin is most likely false, with Alduin playing off Akatosh's depiction as a dragon to make himself seem more powerful and claim rght to rule the world.

      So the Nords are apparently wrong?

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    • Now the Nords, among all the other cultures, have there own unique pantheon. All of them cannot be right. Like the belief in Sithis, or the All-Maker. Or if you don't like the Divines. Not everyone can be right. I like the Nords, I am one, but the classic Nord Pantheon has been replaced by the Divines. I don't see any Nords worshipping Alduin nowadays.

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    • If the All-Maker isn't true, how do the All-Maker stones give you powers?Same goes for every shrine in the game.

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    • That is a good point, but that seems slightly contradictory, as the All-Maker is supposed to be a monotheistic deity. Unless of course the Elder Scrolls is going with the Hindu philosophy, "We all worship the same god under different names, in which case the Nine divines are really just aspects of the All-Maker and Talos as it turns out is Jesus.

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    • And all the lore surrounding the Nine Divines is just wrong.

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    • Arkay is the god of Life and Death. And I belive the barrier is still up, just that the Daedra have their own spheres of control you know? They don't have ultimate power, but a place to touch base where something is belonged to them and is kinda cut from Mundas and the Aedra's protection. Like the shrines. And the Twilight Sepulcher.

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    • In logical terms, you cannot defeat a Divine. They aren't even in Mundus, they recide in the enclosed world of the the Aetherius. The threshold between Mundus and Aetherius is protected by a barrier.

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    • If you were able to fight one,there own weapons may be there weakness

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    • I doubtif the Aedra were still conscious enough to fight, I doubt they would let go of their own weapon. Plus, if their weapons were something that is directly related to them, like if Akatos had a sword that could warp time, (Wouldn't that be so awesome?) if you used it against him, I doubt it would affect him, and it probably wouldn't work in your hands anyway.

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    • I said Doubt a lot of times in that one. Doubts for everybody!

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    • Just a thought Debbie downer lol

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    • i dont worship the divines.

      TRADITIONAL NORDIC PANTEON FTW! PRAISE SHOR, AND KYNE!

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    • 173.86.38.97 wrote:
      i dont worship the divines.

      TRADITIONAL NORDIC PANTEON FTW! PRAISE SHOR, AND KYNE!

      You probably don't even know who Okey is.

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    • For people saying that the barriers still up. The flying city (forgot the name) attacked tamriel.

      It was a DEADRIC city that corssed over to tamriel. Lets face it the aedra lost most of there power when they created mundus the daedra still have most of there power. Akatosh only won because it was dagons bad hair day (joke) No akatosh won because dagon was weakened by oppening a gillion portals and akatosh was like "col bru" Comes in and banish's dagon.

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    • ...wtf? What flying city? I never heard of a flying city. Also, that might be the case with the portals, but i'm pretty sure Mehrunes Dagon had plenty of people doing that for him though. He was supposed to be all powerful when he came into Nirn, ustoppable. Yet, Akatosh was like, "No Eff You," and chokes him out and Martin's spirit was probably so worn out b chnneling the power of a Divine he turned to stone. Because Akatosh is freaking awesome.

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    • which divine, pray tell? I figure most of them would be weaker then the daedra... but akatosh is clearly stronger.

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    • Who to support, who to support?

      I side with the Daedra. Any being which can make rain out of flaming dogs isn't so very bad.

      Let us consider some stuff.......

      Aedra were "weakened" by the creation of Mundus, but were still strong enough to rip Lorkhan apart. Although Lorkhan's remains ..errr.....remain, his power must have been used to complete Mundus, and anchor it down (see Towers theory). So even though Aedra got some power back, they aren't totally powerful.

      The reason that Martin won against Dagon was because Dagon waged a war against Mundus, and fought in Mundus. We can say that the strength of a et'Ada remains in wherever the physical "realm" is. Hence, Dagon was beaten because he wasn't at home.

      The Skeleton Key is actually a correct argument but isn't properly defended. The Power of the Aedra stop Oblivion from claiming Mundus, but the Skeleton Key opened a portal through Evergloam into Mundus, namely the Twilight Sepulcher's thing (I forgot the name). Hence, a Daedra's part-of-being blew a hole through the Aedric defenses.

      Akatosh is extremely strong, no argument. But Daedra are just as strong. Dagon once threw an entire island off Mundus into Oblivion, with a fricking finger. Another hole blown in the Mundus/Oblivion containment protection.

      Not to mention the constant popping up of Daedra and Daedric artifacts in the realm. More holes in the defense.

      In the creation theory, the et'Ada were roughly equal in power. When the Divines lost their power, Magnus fled. His leaving-from Mundus was so powerful it ripped a dimensional hole in the sky, AKA the sun. SImilar stuff were done by the rest of them. All the barriers the Divines create, someone blows apart.

      Due to all this, we see that the Divines ARE powerful, but only in Home Territory. Otherwise. They are a lot of Daedric roadkill.

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    • I thin I already mentioned both of these things in past comments. I already explained the "Daedra Time Theory," in which the barrier between Oblivion and Nirn still works, but Daedra are able to appear for limited amounts of time before the barrier overrides them and sends them back to Oblivion, thus never giving them a chance to invade Nirn again. It would also explain why your summoned lesser daedra would dissapear after a short while. 

      I also already mentioned the argument where it isn't about strength, it's about where you are strongest. I'll call it the "Home Theory," because I am ever so fond of theories, and cheese, but I'll refer to it as such from now on as well. Mehrunes Dagon could have been defeated because he was away from where he was strongest, home, and the combined influnce of Akatosh, along with the mortal being of Matin Septim who was in his homeworld of Nirn, could have been enough to defeat him.

      Again, this argument could very well descend into not whether or not the Daedra are stronger than the Daedra, but it could depend on the battleground. No one can deny the Aedra are powerful, nor the daedric princes. Both have done things of considerable power. Lorkhans heart, just a body part of his, caused the Red Volcano, or so people say. Now, I think we can all agree that Mehrunes Dagon is probably weakened from his battle in the Oblivion crisis, so we should consider that case resolved and leave him out of the argument. Dagon probably holds no power he might have had over the Aedra anymore. Instead, since it is not the whole species of daedra we are refering too as it is the Princes, we should instead focus on finding the strongest of the Princes and see what they have against the Aedra, as we should for the Aedra as well. 

       We all pretty much agree that Akatosh is probably the strongest, as he is the chief god, worshipped in many cultures as the head honcho, like the Zeus of the Elder Scrolls. What about the other Divines? Stendaar? Julianos? Arkay? Mara? Dibella? Take your pick. Who besides Akatosh holds considerable power? We should leave Talos out as he is not technically an Aedra.

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    • Lev1athania wrote:
      In logical terms, you cannot defeat a Divine. They aren't even in Mundus, they recide in the enclosed world of the the Aetherius. The threshold between Mundus and Aetherius is protected by a barrier.

      Sovngarde is a realm of Aetherius, and the Dragonborn goes there.

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    • We don't know as much as we would like with Sovngarde. It would seem Shor is absent from his hall, and you can even hear some dead nords remark about it, so maybe he is incapacitated as well? By what means, I have no idea.

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    • If we consider the et'Ada as equal in power, then Lorkhan is, say, as powerful as a Daedra. However, the Divines tore him apart due to the home territory advantage. However, we can see the power of an et'Ada here.

      Lorkhan's power was enough to feed 3 god-beings, one evil bastard superboss, tons of ash guardians. It wiped out the entire Dwemer race, because the Dwemer literally pushed the wrong buttons. It also is one of the few things anchoring the world to itself, providing integrity to the universe.

      Let us go to real world physics, temporarily.

      Energy cannot be destroyed, only reshaped.

      OK, back to fantasy.

      The Divines used their power to form the world, hence storing part of their power as their domain. Therefore, when these Daedra barge in to conquer, they are matched against the power of the Aedra, ALL OF IT. Consider this equation.

      9 [ Aedra (Dormant Power + Active power) ] > Daedra - Dormant Power

      So, the question depends on WHERE the fight is held.

      P.S.: As to the actual, original question of the thread, you must be very strong.

      To be more specific, you must be able to resist the dimensional alteration of the Divine (eg: Akatosh turning time, Arkay killing off your zombie, etc). A huge reservoir of magicka is preferred, mainly from a Heart of Lorkhan. Try to have a good companion, preferably a Numidium or two. Powerful weapons are a must, and the ability to control said weapons. I personally suggest the Staff of Magnus.

      Play to your strengths, avoid your weaknesses. When Dibella acts suggestive, REFUSE! Don't fall for it.

      A good armor set is also awesome. Consider something awesome, like highly powerful Daedric Armor made from the heart of the Daedric Princes for maximum effect.

      Have awesome powers and abilities. The Thu'um, Shadow Magic, Time Control, Miscellaneous Immortal Powers, maybe even some Daedric skills.

      Finally, remember. Worshippers. A Divine can be blotted from existence if you can completely cause the idea of their worship to vanish, and increase your strength by getting worshippers. Remember, the mortals on earth are Elhnofey and et'Ada, remnants of ancient strength. Their adoration will be criticall in your success.

      Good luck, warrior. May you win.

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    • Two theories.1.Shor can only be seen by the dead.2.He went away because his divine light would blind a living mortal.I would say it is just Lorkhan/Shor who has this effect, as he is the reason Mundus exists, and you would be seeing every part of Mundus in one body.

      Arkay would probably be the second most powerful.But Daedra spit in his face, because they cannot die, rendering Arkay's powers of life and death useless.Next Mara.But Daedra are genderless, so Mara's powers of love are useless.Stendarr, Mercy has no effect on Daedra, as far as I know, they do not have feelings.Julianos, most Daedra are prominent magic casters, and it is Magnus who controls magic.Julianos is simply the patron of magic.Dibella, again, Daedra are genderless.

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    • I take it from your equation stuff and on where the fight is held that you agree with me. Awesome. Also, I probably would fall for Dibella's trickery, that hot sneaky devil, and finally, your last thing. Since when did killing off worshippers do anything to the Divines? This isn't Percy Jackson! Also, we don't know exactly what happened to the Dwemer, heck, maybe we never will. Maybe thy angered a Daedra, maybe they squeezed the heart of Lorkhan the wrong way, but we can never know until Bethesda provides us with an explanation. 

         Alright, so I hope this final note will put this Daedra vs Aedra business to rest.

        The Aedra and Daedra are both powerful and weak. The Aedra are strong because they have demonstrated their power again and again and through Lorkhan's trickery, they were incapacitated, down but not out. Through agents such as Martin Septim, they can still exert their power over Nirn, and repel any Daedra who try to attack. The Daedra are strong because, as beings of change, they will probably learnt to adapt to the absense of the Aedra and grow ever stronger, but they are not stronge enough to directly confront an Aedra, not yet at least.  Using Akatosh as a prime example, he is able to repel powerful creatures away by simply working through humans, such as Martin Septim or granting the dragonblood to the Dragonborn, (That was him who gave it to us right?). Again bringing up my Daedra Time theory, Daedra are only strong enough to exert their will to be in another world for a short time before they are sent back. 

         It has also been said many times on this thread that Mehrunes Dagon was in another realm and thus was weakened because he was away from his homeland, and as Lorkhan probably wasn't used to walking to Nirn just yet, as he was soon killed after it was created, soon by god terms anyways, therefore he could have been weak enough for Trinimac to kill him and rip him asunder, throwing the heart down the crapper, theoretically speaking. So bringing up my Home Theory, the argument that can and will be made by me is this, and thus ed this debate over who is strongest.

         Neither is stronger than the other. Without the creation of Nirn, a divine would still be invincible unless deceived by another Divine, thus any Daedric Prince foolish enough to challenge an Aedra at full strength would be obliterated, but the Aedra were weakened by Mundus's creation, and theoretically places them at equal power with the Daedra, kind of like how a speach option with Clavicus Vile in Skyrim reveals that since he is at half power, him and the dragonborn are equals. Now, Clavicus Vile is the Daedric Prince of power correct? So you would expect him to have some right? Even if your dragonborn is really freaking powerful, he can still be killed pretty easily if fought by a higher foe, and if you double that strength, you are at a daedric princes level. So equationally speaking here:

      2= Dragonborn

      2+2= Daedric Prince. 4-2= Incapacitated Aedra. 

      So by the evidence of the Home theory, one cannot assume one is more powerful than the other. They are teo sides of the same coin, but one must flip the coin in a way to make sure the other does not come out on top, whatever your desire for who wins mayy be, and a good general knows when to pick his battles, and the battle between an Aedra and a Daedra, an epic battle I would say, will be decided on who can outsmart the other and pick a battlefield away from the opponents home. So, the argument will boil down to, "Who is the most clever?"

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    • 1. Before Mundus, a battle would last indefinately as it would be impossible to banish a divine being when there is nowhere to banish him from, and Barbas is a Daedra, and who knows how long he's been on Nirn.So the amulets power must be fading.Also, a Dragonborn can be classified as a demi-god, as they are imbued with some of Akatoshs power.

      2.The problem with picking the battlefield, Aedra have dormant power in Mundus and Aetherius, and the Daedra only have it in Oblivion.The only fair place is the void, and Padomay/Sithis would be like "GTFO noobs."

      3.Some princes are stronger then others.Hermaeus Mora could (notice could.His library is endless, because Apocrypha is knowledge.) know the secret to killing Anu or Padomay, Boethiah battled Trinimac, defeated him and then ate him and Molag Bal gains power every war that happens, as conquest would happen in a war.

      4.The blood of a Daedric Prince is required to open a Oblivion Gate, so who knows how much power Mehrunes gave up to simply get into Nirn.

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    • Boethiah tricked Trinimac, she/he never defeated him.

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    • Actually, the wiki page states that Boethiah defeated him.A book states that she tricked him.

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    • It would say she defeated him because she did, through trickery. It wasn't a battle though is all I'm saying.

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    • This page, Origins, Merethic Era.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      We don't know as much as we would like with Sovngarde. It would seem Shor is absent from his hall, and you can even hear some dead nords remark about it, so maybe he is incapacitated as well? By what means, I have no idea.

      Shor isn't there because if he was, you would die.

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    • Clavicus ISN'T the Daedra of "power". He just makes deals with guys in exchange of promises of power. This mistake is also present in Meridia. Even though she is called the Mistress of Infinite Energies and her power/symbol is the sun, she didn't create the sun (credit goes to magnus), and nor is the sun infinite (Bloodcursed arrows thrown at it every few minutes cuts out it's power).

      See? You picked the wrong battlefield.

      Worshipper DO matter. Check the Thalmor Plan To Destroy the World. In that, they state that if Talos must be stopped to stop his influencing of the World Takeover and ascension into godhood, they must first cut off his pool of worshippers, then the knowledge of him, and so on till the very idea of the existence of a human god is eroded, leaving nothing behind. The process is the similar reverse of Mantling, where a person mimics a deity to such a degree there is no separation between the deity and the being, effectively fusing the two. Examples of mantling are present, the main one may be Arkay the shopkeeper - Arkay the God. ANother is Talos - Lorkhan. Unmentioned examples include the UMBRA, wielder of the eponymous sword who end up mantled to each other through the ages. The hero of Kvatch technically mantled Sheogorath, and Jyggalag completed the process, making him the Mad God.

      Hence, you will notice some important things. All mortals on the planet are descendants of the et'Ada, with elves being a generation or two closer (Hence their longer lives). The mind is a powerful weapon then, and so the world can be controlled by a skilled mind. This is actually a focal point of the Daedric powers, as they are closely related to the mind. Examples include Mora's obsession of KNOWLEDGE, Vile's POWER LUST, Molag's SUBMISSION/SLAVERY.

      Back to point. The daedra do not require worship or maintenance directly, but the divines do. Since Mundus is their creation, the energy put dormant in the world is brought active through conduits like the et'Adan beings. Hence, if all the people became totally mantled to the Divines, you get a near-Anu Being, made of Mundus, with control of Aetherius. They can scour the floors clean with a Daedric Prince.

      However, the Daedra meddle with the mortals to prevent just this. Hence, the worshipper theory (Yes, it was influenced by Assassin's Creed and Percy Jackson. Sue me.) still stands.

      Another reason Daedra are all powerful is because of CHIM. I ain't gonna explain now, too long.

      Yes, the coin idea fits, but not completely. A daedra is stronger than a Divine. I ain't a Lore Master, and I know that. Why?

      Easy. Since daedra are unpredictable, volatile creatures, one second they may be weak enoguh to kill with a rusty wooden fork with dull ends, the next second they wipe out you, your mom, everyone you cared about, kills Harry Potter, resurrects your nemesis and serves you boiled Mojito (Seriously, WTF?). This flux is due to, as I said earlier, volatility. On the other hand, Divines are held down by mortal constraints and the Tower binding.

      I, however, state this with total honesty. The Strongest being ever, is a player with control over the Console Commands and the Construction KIt. I made sanguine vanish with a single keystroke, beat that!

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    • Alright, Alright, settle down now. And Clavicus's Vile's official title is the Daedric Prince of power, trickery, wishes, and bargains. Yeah I know that even though he represents power he doesn't have all of it. I was just merely trying to state that being the prince of power, he would have some. 

       Also, the Towers theory is still just a theory. We cannot make assumptions at this time, even if it is probable it will happen. Also, Talos may be a special case. Perhaps the way he works as an Aedra is different from the others, as he was alway's different from them. Perhaps in their limited power, the Eight made him a Divine, but a weaker Divine then they would have liked, thus making Talos more vulnerable to such things as worship. I mean, not a lot of people worship the All-Maker these days, but those stones still work pretty dandy. Alos, this is the first time someone has ever compared Talos to Lorkhan as the same person. Never herd that before. Also, with tat controlling the wrld with your mind mumbo jumbo, yeah sure whatever. Also, explain CHIM. Im actually curious as to what that is.

        Now onto what you were saying about Daedric Princes. They can too be predictable. It was pretty clear where Mehrunes Dagon was going in the Oblivion Crisis. The only Daedric Prince I would deem unknowable is Sheogorath, but you can still alway's expect him to be mad. Aedra can be just as unpredictable, in fact even more so. I'm willing to bet Dagon didn't expect Martin to bust out those dragons moves and beat the crap out of hm and sent him packing.

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    • That wasn't Martin.That was Akatosh's avatar, using Martin's body as a host.

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    • Oh same difference. Point being, Akatosh can use mortals to do awesome stuff.

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      1. then the wiki needs to be sorted out.Dragons are native to Akavir, were direct creations of Akatosh and are under the Akaviri section in the link box.

      2.What do Dov in general have to do with Alduin being a god?Is Alduin evil?No.Is he good?No.Is he neutral?No.Because mortals can't understand his divine purpose.And, if he is just a Dragon.Alduin, Y u no give me soul?

      Remember that the forum is just part of the wiki, if you want something sorted out on the wiki, do it yourself instead of waiting for others too... We would really appreciate it.

      Its a shame really that alot of forum users that know of lore, the games, how to write, never actually contribute to the wiki itself, only to the Forum... And we would really like some help with the lore as the lore articles aren't exacly what this wiki is known most for.

      Sorry for bringing up a old post... Just had to say it.

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    • Well then. Alrighty. I's true we could edit some things around, but this thread is full of mere speculation. If something should go on the lore pages, it should be cold hard fact otherwise the wiki page will become full of just theories and will no longer be reliable to go to for solid information. If we figure out something that makes so much sense it has to be true, by all means, we will consider adding it to the pages,

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    • But in good faith, I will take a look at ones that are in need of some information and see if I can contribute.

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    • G0LD3NF1RE wrote:

      Remember that the forum is just part of the wiki, if you want something sorted out on the wiki, do it yourself instead of waiting for others too... We would really appreciate it.

      Its a shame really that alot of forum users that know of lore, the games, how to write, never actually contribute to the wiki itself, only to the Forum... And we would really like some help with the lore as the lore articles aren't exacly what this wiki is known most for.

      Sorry for bringing up a old post... Just had to say it.

      I would, but i can't edit link boxes for some reason.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Alright, Alright, settle down now. And Clavicus's Vile's official title is the Daedric Prince of power, trickery, wishes, and bargains. Yeah I know that even though he represents power he doesn't have all of it. I was just merely trying to state that being the prince of power, he would have some. 

      Also, the Towers theory is still just a theory. We cannot make assumptions at this time, even if it is probable it will happen. Also, Talos may be a special case. Perhaps the way he works as an Aedra is different from the others, as he was alway's different from them. Perhaps in their limited power, the Eight made him a Divine, but a weaker Divine then they would have liked, thus making Talos more vulnerable to such things as worship. I mean, not a lot of people worship the All-Maker these days, but those stones still work pretty dandy. Alos, this is the first time someone has ever compared Talos to Lorkhan as the same person. Never herd that before. Also, with tat controlling the wrld with your mind mumbo jumbo, yeah sure whatever. Also, explain CHIM. Im actually curious as to what that is.

      Now onto what you were saying about Daedric Princes. They can too be predictable. It was pretty clear where Mehrunes Dagon was going in the Oblivion Crisis. The only Daedric Prince I would deem unknowable is Sheogorath, but you can still alway's expect him to be mad. Aedra can be just as unpredictable, in fact even more so. I'm willing to bet Dagon didn't expect Martin to bust out those dragons moves and beat the crap out of hm and sent him packing.

      I think only the more violent and objectively evil ones (that like torturing people for fun) are really predictable, while the others are no more- or less- predictable then a normal person. but personally, I think malacath is the least predictable of them all.

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    • Well I edited the crap out of the Lore page, if anyone wants to check that out. It was just the paragraph but I added a hefty sum to it. Anyway, Malacath is honorable in some ways, usually looking out for his kin. If one wanted to trap him in a sick game of sorts to toy with him, put an orcs life on the line. He has shown a measure of care for them, in his own way.

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    • Well, hold up right there boy! Mind control IS important. As for CHIM:

      CHIM is the ability to understand the world's true nature, how it works, where it fails, how to stop, activate and control it. If you have knowledge, then you also have power. Talos knew about CHIM, which is the 5th of 6 ways of mantling. So did the Daedra, and Magnus, being the architect of the world, must know too. I'm not sure whether the Divines knew, but if they did, they would have sensed the trap in building the world, like Magnus.

      What's the blathering about Talos and Lorkhan? Have you not heard of the Shezzarines? My previous real-world statement? Where do you think power to make him a god came from?

      Talos is a reincarnation of Lorkhan. Cold, hard truth.

      As for the mind control thing, the entire plot was a suspected canon thing, and suspicions can be acted upon.

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    • Woah woah woah Nikss. I appreciate the enthusiasm for your theories, but I have never heard of this CHIM business. Maybe if you directed me to an article or something that clearly states it? 

        And no, I havn't heard your previous real-world statement, unless of course you are referring to your last comment on the thread in which I responded too, but I believe the power that made Talos a god is from, well, the gods. And whats the Shezzarines? There is no cold hard fact for Talos being a reincarnation of Lorkhan. While I am open to the idea, I would need some kind of proof, not a speculation, no matter how convicing. I am well aware that suspicions can be acted upon. In fact, I have created some of my own theories. But without proof, they are just that. Theories. Until Bethesda resolves it, we can only observe and speculate. Also, we should seriously just start another thread about this business. I think the person who asked this got more than he came for.

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    • CHIM is actually a theory, a theory the developers planted themself, but a theory... You can find info on it in the 36 lessons of vivec.

      I find CHIM and Dragon breaks very interesting, and it really got me into lore.

      Edit: Or i guess its actually not really a theory, but its not fact.

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    • Its research. Its like the studies of science. Acording to the scientific laws Gravity is still just a theory but its not is it? Its fact.. Or is it?

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    • Again, if one of you were to direct me to the findings, that would be appreciated, so we at least all get on the same page. I am familiar with dragon breaks however, as they are actually shown to happen in game.

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    • But if this stuff with CHIM is true, as in the "Knowing the world" and all that, it could prove groundbreaking to all of our theories. If the developers planted this theory themselves, I am very interested in learning more about, perhaps as a clue to solving these mysteries. Judged on our findings from all around, I would say we have made some pretty good progress. Perhaps in time we can combine our findings into one solid hypothesis. Wouldn't that be mad?

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    • Well, im more talking about How To Break The Dragon... And if you want to read about CHIM and Breaking The Dragon i highly suggest you read The Metaphysics of Morrowind.

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    • Alrighty then! Sit tight while I do that and I will get back to you!

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    • Taking some of the part of it here

      Breaking the Dragon let Tiber Septim conquer Tamriel. While Vivec may have murdered Nerevar before he became a god, in becoming a god, he broke the Dragon and was then able to rewrite his own past, shaping it as he saw fit.

      CHIM is the realisation that your entire world, everything you experience, does not really exist. It exists as the dream of a power, which, since it must be called something, is called God. Everything that exists is just part of the dream of God, including yourself. You are just a tiny fraction of the Godhead, that has managed to gain a modicum of self-awareness.

      For most, the self-awareness doesn’t last. Their minds can’t support two co-existing statements of “I exist” and “I do not exist”, resulting in the total negation of identity known as “zero-summing”. 1 + -1 = 0. To “zero-sum” is to. It’s rather reminiscent of the bit inHitchhiker’s Guide To The Galaxy in which God, on having his existence proven to be impossible, immediately vanishes.

      To successfully attain CHIM, one must take the next step: to hold the two conflicting statements simultaneously. To add one and minus-one, and come up with something other than zero. Instead of following the mental path of  its all a dream… I don’t exist”, you instead move to “it’s all a dream… I can control it.” Reality is mutable, and yours for the changing.

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    • You might also be interested in The Towers

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    • Dude that entire thing wasn't necessary, I just looked it up online. Plus, I already know the Towers theory. Yeah, so Iread the CHIM thing, and it either the most mind blowingly brilliant thing I have ever seen in the Elder Scrolls, or the biggest and dumbest misinterpretation of the lore in the Elder Scrolls I have ever seen. But, in itself, it is quite an interesting concept. And many things fit. It sure explains why Daggerfall had six different canon endings. It was a but hard to follow. I had no idea what he was talking about with that mystical mumbo jumbo about the Matrix and God, but in the end, I understood. Vivec is self aware. That's pretty cool. I never thought of saved games this way before. Quite a mind melter, those articles.

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    • Im not only talking to you, but everyone who would find the CHIM and How to break the dragon thing interesting that doesn't know if they would want to read the whole thing.

      And it is not stupid since its the writters for bethesda who responds to these questions about CHIM and dragon break, and support it.

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    • I never said it was stupid. I said it was EITHER stupid or brilliant. Since most people seem to like it than I guess it's brilliant. And no one else seems to be questioning the CHIM thing except me, so, yeah, I think you are kind of talking to me. If anyone else wants to know about it, then here you go I guess, but the point is, I enjoy the idea, and I find it mkes sense, so I guess I am officially adopting this new thoery...That still doesn't explain why the Daedra are more powerful than Aedra though.

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    • I know who i talk to, you wouldn't know who i talk to better than myself.

      It doesn't matter if you're the one questioning it, anyone else can read what is said.

      And nothing can confirm if Daedra Is more powerful than Daedra so we wont know until we get some conformation, so the Aedra VS Daedra discussion is meaningless, and not what this thread was supposed to be.

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    • Alright alright chill, I meant nothing by it.

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    • I was just pointing out the subject between the Aedra and Daedra because we've been discussing it for the past few days now. I agree this thread evolved into another thing entirely, but hwy notjust make a new one dedicated to that argument and leave this thread to it's own devices. My own answer for this thread is: You would have to be pretty darn powerful to beat a Aedra. 

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    • I don't see why we would make a new thread about it either, what would be the outcome? Nothing except a big flame war Deadra VS Aedrea.

      Also im not angry, it just frustrates me how people think they know another guy better than the guy himself.

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    • I don't! Again, I meant nothing by it. But we have discussed the subject quite reasonably between ourselves and I think we are capable of talking about it in a nice way and in a orderly manner.

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    • this completely off topic but alot of you guys are like old herma mora but not quite there when it comes to lore

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    • I don't want to gloat, but I do know a thing or about Tamriel.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      ...wtf? What flying city? I never heard of a flying city. Also, that might be the case with the portals, but i'm pretty sure Mehrunes Dagon had plenty of people doing that for him though. He was supposed to be all powerful when he came into Nirn, ustoppable. Yet, Akatosh was like, "No Eff You," and chokes him out and Martin's spirit was probably so worn out b chnneling the power of a Divine he turned to stone. Because Akatosh is freaking awesome.

      Err, Umbriel. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Umbriel

      You can blame Umbra itself for that one.

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    • Sorry, never read it. I have never read any of the books.

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    • This was a crazy theory but I'll indulge it. Keep this going please. I'm enjoying the read.

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    • Madman97- I'm actually kind of worn out now. What else is there to say? (Sorry didn't feel like logging in.)

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    • Just this.

      HAH!

      I say, we all are a bunch of loremasters through and through, ain't we?

      I'll admit, I've played only bare parts of the series, but I learnt a lot. I LEARNT!

      I'll stop my psycho talk, but I really think that CHIM, the Towers, Creation of the World and Aubris require a bit of discussion. I realized nothing inspires ideas like a hundred guys disputing you.

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    • On a bit of consideration on my previous "mad talk", I realized something, again.

      Remember what Septimus Signus said, "The elder scrolls are part of the universe, look forward, backward, up down, thing, thingy, yada yada yada...." just go and see the actual dialogue from somewhere. Could the scrolls grant a temporary state of CHIM, which, when refused by the mind, leads to the power of the Scroll trying to override the observer, which causes the blindness? This could be due to the scrolls being a part of Aubris in it's raw state.

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    • The CHIM is like the ultimate reminder to the player that they are just playin a game. In fact, it's actally such a strong theory, it's almost as if your dragonborn is Neo from the Matrix movies, and Tamriel is the Matrix, and you bypass the codes of the matrix to do amazing things. The dragons are like the Skyrim versions of Agent Smith. 

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    • I think you need a permission from Sithis to destroy the Aedra but it is really a bad idea. Look at the Dwemer. They challenged the gods, used their technology and disappeared.

      The awkward moment... when the Dwemer gone trying to become gods.

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    • Challenged?No.....Tried-to-become-a-god-and-would-have-worked-if-they-didn't-accidentally-screw-up.

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    • It seems that Aedra and Daedra are a big part of this disscussion, so I'm going to leave a few video links for those who aren't familiar

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0Od2lbw9N4 - the Aedra gave up much of thier Divine power for the creation of Mundus

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Z-lG1lG6-Q -The Aedra that stayed to finishing creating Mundus where bound to the Mortal plain, those that left part way through ripped holes in the universe that became stars and the sun

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-chDClmdos - Daedra didn't loss any of thier Divine power, so assuming they were equals orginally. The Deadra have a leg up on them

      Alduin isn't a Divine, but him and all the other Dragons could be considered lesser versions of Aedra, since they claim direct ancestery from them, but so do the elves.

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    • Congratulations on the recap. Although, it wasn't necessary. We know what's going on with the Aedra and Daedra, it's just we are having trouble agreeing wether or not which is stronger than the other. We have both made our arguments, and we still find ourselves at a bit of a stalemate. Whenever someone brings something new to the thread, another counters it. Maybe we will never know the answer to these questions, but that shouldn't discourage us from looking.

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    • Dragons technically are "lesser" aedra, and so is every race on Nirn, except Argonians, which I'll get to in a minute.The Ehlnofey were divines who decided to give up most of their power in give life and inhabitate Mundus.Read the page for more info.The Hist were probably made by them, but it is unknown if Argonians or Hist have divine ancestry.

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    • That's what I said. The bones of the Earth. The Divinity in man still exists, hence he is a part of Mundus.

      The Daedra and Aedra were equal in strength, but the Aedra lost tons of life force to Mundus. Plus, when you kill a god, he just regenerates (Trinimac and Malacath) forever.

      Actually, Mehrunes' weakness niggles at me. Mehrunes is said to have dealt with a mage who tricked him by hurling his home island into Oblivion, Molag Bal had so much power he killed all the inhabitants of a city with a red mist. SO why didn't any daedra pull that one on Cyrodiil? Could it be the power of the White Gold Tower, or just the Temple being so close?

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    • I'd like to cut in with my Argonian logic here.

      1. When you say Padomay, you do know that Sithis is the same being, correct?

      2. Dov are technically Beastfolk, if that's the term you're going to use. They were created by Akatosh. So what? Argonians are direct descendants of the Hist, and we're still considered Beastfolk.

      3. There are no lesser Aedra. By that logic, Talos is a lesser Aedra because he was once (and still is, technically speaking) mortal.

      Just sayin'.

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    • To Lab Coat Billy

      1.Yes, but Padomay is his "true" name.Also, nothing to do with Argonians.

      2.Dov are technically an Akaviri race, thus the word "Beastfolk" does not truly apply to them.

      3.The lesser Aedra are Aedra who do not control or represent anything.Talos is a "major" Aedra as he represents war and humans.

      To Nikss.

      Trinimac was never said to be killed, only swallowed.Even if he did die, Malacath was created by Boethiah's innards mixing with Trinimacs "remains" an the excrement came to life.Also, a Daedra's power on Mundus is limited, due to them not being involved in it's creation.

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    • Alduin represents destruction. He's technically an Aedra then? Also, Sithis is not identified as a him or a her (although generally thought of as male). Beastfolk is a rather broad term to me, forgive me for not using the Akaviri race. But I don't think Akaviri Dragons are the same Dov we have in Skyrim.

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    • Alduin is technically an Aedra, if he wasn't then Talos wouldn't be as both were "created" by divines.I said "him" as saying "it" seems disrespectful.Akaviri Dragons are the same Dov.Evolution actually applies to Dov.The normal "Dragon" type in Skyrim are the ones that haven't "evolved".

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    • I'm not sure I quite get that last bit. What does evolution have anything to do with the immortal Dov? Besides, maybe I'm incorrect, but aren't all Akaviri dragons either black or red?

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    • Dragons "evolved" to better combat enemies.And the original Akaviri dragons were brown, just like a normal Skyrim "dragon."

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    • Evolved how, exactly? And that still doesn't account for Frost Dragons, Legendary Dragons, etc.

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    • Well.Dragon evolution is a theory, but it does explain some things.I.E Frost Dragons, Revered Dragons and Legendary Dragons are all their own breed, but the others a descended from Akaviri dragons.

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    • Ah. That makes more sense then what I was thinking of.

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    • It is hard to grasp at first, but I think it makes sense.Then Bethesda comes along and says "Nope!" and bitch slaps me.

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    • Bethesda, we love your games, but improve the lore.

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    • True sey.^

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    • I think that the dragons were not created by Akatosh. Now here me out why. Men depict Akatosh as a dragon because he is very powerful, like a dragon. Now dragons, being very vain creatures, use this to claim they have a right to divine rule to dominate, and Alduin uses this depiction to claim he is the firstborn of Akatosh. This should not be taken literally as of now. These could be false claims to intimidate and impress his fellow bretheren so they follow him. They could just be like any other beast folk.  

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    • Given the fact Dragons are immortal, and the Daedra themselves say the Dragons just "were" I find that highly unlikely.All races save Argonians are supposed to have descended from Ehlnofey, but Dragons just "were" which means they obviously pre-date all but the Hist and Ehlnofey.

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    • Which daedra said that? Anyway, even so, many things could have no explanation of coming into being, butthat does not mean they were created by the Divines. It just means we havn't figured out why yet.

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    • You do know that the Ehlnofey were divines.Every race on Nirn has Divine ancestry.Also, read the Dragons (Lore) page.It was a Dremora at the College of Whispers.

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    • That we know of. Argonians are yet to be determined along with the other races on different continents. And the dragons, though immortal, are not all powerful. If they were so powerful, how can they be slain by simple humans? You don't have to be the Dragonborn to kill dragons. Normal people, such as the blades, can kill them too. 

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      That we know of. Argonians are yet to be determined along with the other races on different continents. And the dragons, though immortal, are not all powerful. If they were so powerful, how can they be slain by simple humans? You don't have to be the Dragonborn to kill dragons. Normal people, such as the blades, can kill them too. 

      That's not killing them. Their soul is still intact, unless it's absorbed by the Dragonbor.

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    • No.Blades "defeated" dragons because they are arrogant and think they are all powerful, thus overestimate themselves.The only way to kill a Dragon is to absorb it's soul.

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    • True, to truly kill a dragon one mus absorb their soul, that is to stop them from rising from the grave by a necromancer's hand, such as Alduins. Like humans, they can still experience physical death, but their souls are still intact. It is not known where the dragon's soul goes to after death, but we know that some humans go to Sovngarde or Hircine's field's. But dragons can still be killed. It's just unless their soul is absorbed, they can rise again from the grave, but one must cause that to happen. 

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    • So, in theory, if their rise is assured to come again if their soul was not absorbed, humans can hinder them quite a bit. That seems lik a major setback for an apparently all-powerful creature.

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    • It can be assumed the Dragons in Skyrim had their souls absorbed by Miraak in that asshole way he does it in Dragonborn DLC.Because they have no skin, and the soul burns through the skin.

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    • DubiousPeddler
      DubiousPeddler removed this reply because:
      why
      20:17, June 9, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • As there are no reports of it, I would say not. And Miraak only came back at the point in time when Alduin returned. Back in the days where the Blades killed the rest of the dragons off, I am sure they would have kept record of Miraak appearing somewhere. And it canot be assumed that ever dragon had it's soul absorbed, even if Miraak did appear, because a lot of them came back to life in Skyrim. 

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    • And I like trains as well.

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    • How did they lose they skin and soul then?How did the skeletal Dragon in Labrynthian die and lose his soul?

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    • How the heck should I know? Do you know? Besides, that was one dragon, wasn't it? And what's wth this skin business? Yeah, I am aware that dragons have skin and bones, as they are living creatures with living souls. And i'm not sure what that dragon and your skin and bones deal has to do with Miraak. Heck it could just be some necromancers project. But Miraak was restricted to Solstheim, only briefly appearing when a dragon was killed.

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    • Miraak is not restricted to Solstheim.He can appear anywhere.Also, a dragons skin burns during the soul absorbtion.Obvious connection somewhere.

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    • The dragons buried are millenia old. I'm sure their skin would've decayed as their corpse rotted.

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    • Yeah I know how the skin thing works. I'm just wondering how it affirms your theory with Miraak. 

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    • Man of steak wrote:
      Alduin is technically an Aedra, if he wasn't then Talos wouldn't be as both were "created" by divines.I said "him" as saying "it" seems disrespectful.Akaviri Dragons are the same Dov.Evolution actually applies to Dov.The normal "Dragon" type in Skyrim are the ones that haven't "evolved".


      Aedra would not eat people like they were appetizers. Cite your source.

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    • Are you implying that Alduin is not an Aedra? He is still a god, just as much as Mara or Talos.

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    • Except not. Alduin is a powerful individual. That does not make him a god. THe dragonborn defeated him. We can claim we are gods then. It states on this wiki that Alduin's claims that he is a god shoul not be taken literally, unless we have actual proof. Because Akatosh was depicted as a dragon, he used this to claim he was of Akatosh's making, thus giving him right for control.

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    • What Madman said. He may be Akatosh's son but Alduin is not Aedra, he can be killed and he is dead (or not, time will tell).

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    • Exactly. While he certaintly fits the part of a Nordic god of Destruction, the Nords, as I have said before, were primitive culture back in the days of Ysgramor and Atmora. THey worshipped animallistic gods, the most prominent being a dragon. They respected power, and therefore deified Alduin when they saw what he could do. That does not mean he is a god.

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    • He could be of Akatosh's making, but then again, we are to, even if indirectly. For better or for worse, in the Elder Scrolls, we are all children of the gods, except for those Argonians apparently.

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    • TheGreenSabre wrote:
      What Madman said. He may be Akatosh's son but Alduin is not Aedra, he can be killed and he is dead (or not, time will tell).

      If Alduin's soul was not absorbed during his defeat in Sovngarde, one finds it very difficult to believe that he is truly dead.

      He will return, like when Miraak made his return millenia later after his defeat.

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    • One can only speculate what happened to him. While I agree he will probably make his return during another disaster near the final destruction of Nirn and fulfill his destiny as the World-Eater, Alduin is a special creature, even amongst his bretheren. Perhaps his soul is so powerul, the dragonborn is incapable of absorbing. Maybe his soul simply went to another place. Perhaps even Alduin can experience death like the rest of us. 

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    • One thing's for sure though, this isn't the last we've seen of Alduin.

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    • Unfortunatly, for the sake of the argument, I have to disagree. He may return, he may not. We will have to wait and see. If a game happened when we actually experience the end of Nirn, it's final End, Alduin may yet return.

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    • Actully, you could always see Alduin when you start a new game.Also, the Dragonborn claiming he is a god is half true.Akatosh gave him divine power, all the Dovahkiin are technically demi-gods.

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    • Alduin, by that matter, is like a demigod as well, correct? It's very hard to believe that Alduin is not of at least some Divine blood.

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    • Yeah.It's hard to believe he isn't at least quarter divine.How could he create a portal to Sovngarde?

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    • Oh, yeah. Forgot about Sovngarde. My point being, he's never truly defeated. It seems to work something like how Daedra can't be truly defeated in the mortal realm. So it's safe to assume Alduin is floating around Aetherius, or the Void, depending on your beliefs.

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    • Yeah.

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    • I guess that's settled then.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      He could be of Akatosh's making, but then again, we are to, even if indirectly. For better or for worse, in the Elder Scrolls, we are all children of the gods, except for those Argonians apparently.

      Argonians are children of the gods, if you count the Hist collective as a daedra of sufficient power to argue with a prince and not get killed, considering the things like the reversal of the Oblivion Crisis in most of Argonia (The argonians are invading the deadlands! The argonians are coming!), and whatever caused the Um-Hist to escape from the original histplane into Clavicus Vile's realm and then Umbriel. They're just unrelated to everybody else.

      To fight a divine, you would probably want the above battleplan, or just take out a Dark Brotherhood contract and hope Sithis is feeling in the mood to kill what happens when you mix his and Anu's blood.

      Or have Boethiah or someone else just corrupt and/or eat the aedra in question. Sure, the excrement will likely turn into Malacath 2.0, but we're not worried about that. "Sanguine, look! It's [insert divine here], and they have wine!" -Evil dovahkiin everywhere

      Or apply Wabbajack, considering it could blast Mehrunes Dagon out of Tamriel no Akatosh required (The dragon break going on at the time rewrote it so that was noncanonical), and until Skyrim fixed it was capable of shoving dragons away and replacing them with cute little bunnies.

      Or if you merely seek to banish them from your plane of oblivion, tire them out and then finish them off, considering that also worked against a certain Mehrunes Dagon avatar.

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    • I spent a few minutes collecting my brain after that.

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    • Well, I guess were done here then.

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    • Spyrocks wrote:
      Seriously.

      Only 1 divine was ever killed, lakotesh or something like that, he created mundus, and tapped into the powers of the 8 other divines, (this was before talos) they bunched holes in the realm, (the sun and stars are the holes between aetherius and mundus, anyways they wripped him apart and flung his heart on a moutain.

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    • XD. That was messed up in like ten different ways. First off, it's Lorkhan who was killed, yes, we know it was before Talos, When the god Magnus realized his powers were being drained, he escaped by punching a hole in Mundus, not Lorkhan, and Lorkhan got his heart ripped out and got thrown to the Earth, where it BECAME the red mountain.

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    • Lorkhan. And when you think long and hard, you could possibly do so. An Elder Scroll, if tampered with correctly, could probably erase a Divine. And don't forget when you figh Tsun in Sovngarde.

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    • Lab Coat Billy wrote:
      Lorkhan. And when you think long and hard, you could possibly do so. An Elder Scroll, if tampered with correctly, could probably erase a Divine. And don't forget when you figh Tsun in Sovngarde.

      huh ?

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    • Lorkhan is not yet gone his soul still remains in the voids, 

      besides he has an Avatar named Wulfhart .........you know the Master of Tiber Septim who taught him Thu'um. Lorkhans Soul is even still powerful enough to help the nords in Skyrim against Orkey/Arkay a Divine

      believed it or not no souls in the TES universe cannot be gone ,they could either go to heaven,sovngarde,Soul Cairn or any other Oblivion Realm. or still roams on Nirn as ghosts or walking dead

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    • Lorkhan (Or Shor) died after tricking the Divines into making Mundus (or making it himself). You fought Tsun, God Of Trials in Sovngarde, and although he's essential, you can mortally wound him. And Elder Scrolls can pull some funky shit, it wouldn't surprise me if 'proper' tampering would yield results such as erasing mankind from history, or perhaps only Talos, therefore technically killing a Divine.

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    • Lab Coat Billy wrote:
      Lorkhan (Or Shor) died after tricking the Divines into making Mundus (or making it himself). You fought Tsun, God Of Trials in Sovngarde, and although he's essential, you can mortally wound him. And Elder Scrolls can pull some funky shit, it wouldn't surprise me if 'proper' tampering would yield results such as erasing mankind from history, or perhaps only Talos, therefore technically killing a Divine.

      have you ever heard of a Nord Hero in Skyrim Sovngarde mission mentioning "Shor's high seat stands empty; his mien is too bright for mortal eyes" this explains why he cannot be seen by the DB during his visit to Sovngarde,which makes him/Shor 100% still remains

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    • Lab Coat Billy wrote:
      Lorkhan (Or Shor) died after tricking the Divines into making Mundus (or making it himself).

      All the gods "died" during the creation of Mundus, that changed nothing about them being out and about and active.

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    • Uh no, they were incapacitated. If they died, how do there shrines still work? Do they have "Mortal" Avatars to keep all of them in check? Unlikely.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Uh no, they were incapacitated.

      Uhh..... yes

      "Finally, the magical beings of Mythic Aurbis told the ultimate story—that of their own death. For some this was an artistic transfiguration into the concrete, non-magical substance of the world. For others, this was a war in which all were slain, their bodies becoming the substance of the world. For yet others, this was a romantic marriage and parenthood, with the parent spirits naturally having to die and give way to the succeeding mortal races."

      "The magical beings, then, having died, became the et'Ada. The et'Ada are the things perceived and revered by the mortals as gods, spirits, or geniuses of Aurbis. Through their deaths, these magical beings separated themselves in nature from the other magical beings of the Unnatural realms." ~ The Monomyth


      The Aldmeri, the Redguards, even the other races of men all accept that the gods died.

      This is why, during his speech in Paradise, Mankar Camoran questions "how is it that mighty gods die yet the Daedra stand incorruptible?"

      If they died, how do there shrines still work? Do they have "Mortal" Avatars to keep all of them in check? Unlikely.

      The same way Lokrhan has sent avatar after avatar in the forms of Pelinal, Ysmir Wulfharth, Zuin Arctus, Tiber Septim, Hans the Fox, etc. etc. despite being dead.

      A gods death =/= a mortals death

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    • You do realize that there are more books than this one in the Elder Scrolls, that there are many diffrentiating tales of creation. Who are you to decide the solid truth? The Aldmeri, Redguards, and men did not accept that there gods have died. Where did this ridiculous notion come from? I'm pretty sure the worshippers of Talos still believe Talos is alive and well, and I am pretty sure after the Oblivion Crisis the people of Cyrodil are sure that Akatosh is alive and well. The Aldmeri believe they are descended from the Divines, each generation losing more and more divinity. The men believe they were created from nothing, and their pantheon is dirived from the Aldmeri Pantheon. Never once do they say that they think their Divines are all dead. What would be the point of worshipping them?

      "The magical beings, then, having died, became the et'Ada. The et'Ada are the things perceived and revered by the mortals as gods, spirits, or geniuses of Aurbis. Thro ugh their deaths, these magical beings separated themselves in nature from the other magical beings of the Unnatural realms."-The Monomyth (Myth being the key word here). Even if what you say is true, it looks like they were reborn as the et'Ada spirits, so they are not truly dead to begin with. 

       And 1) Your Listening to Mankar Camoran, the guy who tried to destroy the barriers of Nirn and is trying to advertise the Daedra's power to bring more followers, 2) I am pretty sure he is referring to Lorkhan and the corruption of Trinimac, who was corrupted into Malacath, a so called "death" of the God Trinimac, and the birth of Malacath, not so much the Death of all the Divines. The Daedra remained unaffected by the creation of Nirn. I think you read into it a little bit too much.

      A gods death= a mortals death? How does that make a lick of sense? When Akatosh came down and used Martin, does that mean Akatosh died when Martin turned to stone? Spooky.

       Dude, honestly, it says here on the wikia, that the gods are incapacitated, it says in the game the gods are incapacitated. All you got is fan theories written in blogs. You really have no stand to make a claim that they are dead. You have no actual proof. Unless we see it in game, we are not going to accept this theory. I agree, my guess is just as good as yours at this point, but at least I am not claiming this as the absolute truth. It's just best left to speculation. But most people tend to swing towards the "incapacitated" crowd.

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    • You do realize that there are more books than this one in the Elder Scrolls, that there are many diffrentiating tales of creation.

      You are aware the Monomyth is the collection of every race's creation myths?

      and men did not accept that there gods have died. Where did this ridiculous notion come from?

      From the game? you are aware that the Imperial "Nine divines" pantheon is based off of the Almderi religion, the one that says all the gods are dead, with slight nordic touches thrown in?

      I'm pretty sure the worshippers of Talos still believe Talos is alive and well, and I am pretty sure after the Oblivion Crisis the people of Cyrodil are sure that Akatosh is alive and well

      Talos isn't a true divine though, and Akatosh did the same thing deader Lorkhan does, sent an avatar down to Nirn. Its been shown before dead gods can still appear via avatars.

      The Aldmeri believe they are descended from the Divines, each generation losing more and more divinity. The men believe they were created from nothing, and their pantheon is dirived from the Aldmeri Pantheon. Never once do they say that they think their Divines are all dead. What would be the point of worshipping them?

      Did you read the Monomyth? which specifically stated the Aldmeri's beliefs that all the gods are dead?

      As for why to keep worshiping them.... because they still do stuff?

      Even if what you say is true, it looks like they were reborn as the et'Ada spirits, so they are not truly dead to begin with.

      Which is why I have said before a god's death =/= a mortal death.

      1) Your Listening to Mankar Camoran, the guy who tried to destroy the barriers of Nirn and is trying to advertise the Daedra's power to bring more followers,

      2) I am pretty sure he is referring to Lorkhan and the corruption of Trinimac, who was corrupted into Malacath, a so called "death" of the God Trinimac, and the birth of Malacath, not so much the Death of all the Divines

      1. So? Vivec left a giant rock in the air knowing it would destroy Morrowind in the future, that doesn't change the fact that hes still right, and has said the same things about the gods that Mankar did.

      2. But Lorkhan isn't a divine, and most don't worship him as a god. Not to mention that Akatosh is dead also.... him being Lorkhan.

      A gods death= a mortals death? How does that make a lick of sense? When Akatosh came down and used Martin, does that mean Akatosh died when Martin turned to stone? Spooky.

      The same way that Lorkhan being more dead then the dead gods yet still able to influence mortal events via avatars he sends to Nirn, even back in time, makes sense.

      Also, Akatosh didn't USE Martin, Martin BECAME Akatosh via mantling, there is a difference. And no, Akatosh was dead before Martin ever turned into him.

      Dude, honestly, it says here on the wikia, that the gods are incapacitated, it says in the game the gods are incapacitated. All you got is fan theories written in blogs. You really have no stand to make a claim that they are dead. You have no actual proof. Unless we see it in game, we are not going to accept this theory. I agree, my guess is just as good as yours at this point, but at least I am not claiming this as the absolute truth.

      -The same wikia that once had fanon maps of Akavir and said Tullius was in the 5th Legion. the same wiki that is so poorly written everyone from UESP to the Imperial Library tells new people to stay away from it...... yeah, nice source there.

      -Actually, the game says the gods are dead.

      -And no, I have in-game books, and dev quotes. What would be more accurate is to say that "all YOU have is a poorly written wiki."

      It's just best left to speculation. But most people tend to swing towards the "incapacitated" crowd.

      Actually, if you go onto the Imperial Library, or the official Bethesda lore forums, and aks people there, they will tell you the gods are dead.

      Seriously, I find it funny having to argue things that have been confirmed lore since Morrowind, with your main defense being "EVERYONE BELIEVES THIS!" when literally everyone on every other site from the Imperial Library, to Reddit's Elder Scrolls Lore threads, don't.

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    • SajuukKhar wrote:
      Madman97 wrote:
      Uh no, they were incapacitated.
      Uhh..... yes

      "Finally, the magical beings of Mythic Aurbis told the ultimate story—that of their own death. For some this was an artistic transfiguration into the concrete, non-magical substance of the world. For others, this was a war in which all were slain, their bodies becoming the substance of the world. For yet others, this was a romantic marriage and parenthood, with the parent spirits naturally having to die and give way to the succeeding mortal races."

      "The magical beings, then, having died, became the et'Ada. The et'Ada are the things perceived and revered by the mortals as gods, spirits, or geniuses of Aurbis. Through their deaths, these magical beings separated themselves in nature from the other magical beings of the Unnatural realms." ~ The Monomyth


      The Aldmeri, the Redguards, even the other races of men all accept that the gods died.

      This is why, during his speech in Paradise, Mankar Camoran questions "how is it that mighty gods die yet the Daedra stand incorruptible?"


      If they died, how do there shrines still work? Do they have "Mortal" Avatars to keep all of them in check? Unlikely.
      The same way Lokrhan has sent avatar after avatar in the forms of Pelinal, Ysmir Wulfharth, Zuin Arctus, Tiber Septim, Hans the Fox, etc. etc. despite being dead.

      A gods death =/= a mortals death

      Tiber seprtim & Zurin Arctus the avatar of Lorkan....? 

      That is Impossible my friend,

      you see Tiber Septim was born while Wulfharth who is the official Avatar of Lorkhan Status is still alive , could it be possible that there is two avatar of Shor living at the same time....., well i don't quite think so.....

      and Zurin Arctus has no connection to shor a all , but he is said to be the Avatar of Magnus, god of Magic, or well....... having connection to him.......

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    • Madman97 wrote:

      Dude, honestly, it says here on the wikia, that the gods are incapacitated, it says in the game the gods are incapacitated. All you got is fan theories written in blogs. You really have no stand to make a claim that they are dead. You have no actual proof. Unless we see it in game, we are not going to accept this theory. I agree, my guess is just as good as yours at this point, but at least I am not claiming this as the absolute truth. It's just best left to speculation. But most people tend to swing towards the "incapacitated" crowd.

      you know wiki is not like an Encylopedia you know , it's perfectly different because wiki can be changed by anyone , anyone....... , so Wiki can sometimes be wrong and right ,so please don't rely your view 100% to the wiki , Okay my friend.....

      but i myself don't like anyone who refers gods to be dead , if they're dead why in the hell anyone worshipped them......,ask for their guidance ,ask for their help, ask for their blessing,and magically those so called dead gods sometimes answers and helped 

      They can mortally be dead but No spirit in the TES Universe can be dead.......

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    • Hbxn wrote:
      That is Impossible my friend,

      Not really.

      Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror [sic], and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., ~ Before the Ages of Man

      "“The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke it in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Arnand the Fox or should I say Arctus?" ~ Where Were You When the Dragon Broke

      "Finally Trinimac, Auriel's greatest knight, knocked Lorkhan down in front of his army and reached in with more than hands to take his Heart." ~ The Monomyth

      "With his last breath, the Underking's Heart roars a hole through the Battlemage's chest." ~ The Arcturian Heresy

      Pelinal = Ysmir = Hans the Fox = Arnand the Fox = Zurin Arctus

      Ysmir Wulfharth blasting a hole through Zruin Arctus's chest was a symbolic transference of power, making Zurin like Lorkhan, heartless with a big ass hole in his chest, which is why Zurin would later rise and become The Underking like Wulfharth, a known Shezzarine, was.


      "He saw the twin head of a ruling king who had no equivalent. And eight imperfections rubbed into precious stones, set into a crown that looked like shackles, which he understood to be the twin crowns of the two-headed king." ~ Sermon 19

      Stained glass window of Akatosh in Oblivion, depecting him with two heads

      "You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change." ~ Kirkbride

      Statue of Talos in Skyrim depicting him standing over a snake

      Statue of Vivec in Morrowindm, depicting him pearing a scarab.

      Ysmir (Dragon of the North): The Nordic aspect of Talos. ~ Varities of Faith

      Lorkhan = Akatosh, the stained glass window in Oblivion is representative of their dual nature. Tiber Septim is called the two-headed king by Vivec due to his dual avatar status, being an avatar of both Lorkhan and Akatosh. The statue of Talos in Skyrim is representative of Talos taking Lorkhan's place in the Nine Divines, a pose mirrored by Vivec, due to his taking of Lorkhan's power via the heart. The snake being the ancient Nrodic animal Pantheon's animal totem for Shor, and the scarab being the Dunmer and Dwemer's symbol for Lorkhan.


      And to round it all out, a word from Michael Kirkbride himself.

      http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

      Lorkhan and his avatars:

      1. Wulfharth L
      2. Hjalti O
      3. Ysmir R
      4. Talos K
      5. Arctus H
      6. Septim A
      N

      Pelinal = Ysmir = Arnand the Fox = Hans the Fox = Tiber Septim = Ysmir Wulfharth = Zurin Arctus = Talos = Avatars of Lorkhan.

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    • SajuukKhar wrote:

      Not really.

      Also during the Late Merethic Era the legendary immortal hero, warrior, sorceror [sic], and king variously known as Pelinal Whitestrake, Harrald Hairy Breeks, Ysmir, Hans the Fox, etc., ~ Before the Ages of Man

      "“The Three Thieves of Morrowind could tell you where they were. So could the High King of Alinor, who was the one who broke it in the first place. There are others on this earth that could, too: Ysmir, Pelinal, Arnand the Fox or should I say Arctus?" ~ Where Were You When the Dragon Broke

      Pelinal = Ysmir = Hans the Fox = Arnand the Fox = Zurin Arctus


      "He saw the twin head of a ruling king who had no equivalent. And eight imperfections rubbed into precious stones, set into a crown that looked like shackles, which he understood to be the twin crowns of the two-headed king." ~ Sermon 19

      Stained glass window of Akatosh in Oblivion, depecting him with two heads

      "You guessed it. The Arena is a collection of pseudo-imagos, all the way down to the core. Lorkhan is Akatosh, the Dragon God of Time is the Missing God of Change." ~ Kirkbride

      Statue of Talos in Skyrim depicting him standing over a snake

      Statue of Vivec in Morrowindm, depicting him pearing a scarab.

      Ysmir (Dragon of the North): The Nordic aspect of Talos. ~ Varities of Faith

      Lorkhan = Akatosh, the stained glass window in Oblivion is representative of their dual nature. Tiber Septim is called the two-headed king by vivec due to his dual avatar status, being an avatar of both Lorkhan and Akatosh. The statue of Talos in Skyrim is representative of Talos taking Lorkhan's place in the Nine Divines, a pose mirrored by Vivec, due to his taking of Lorkhan's power via the heart. The snake being the ancient Nrodic animal Pantheon's animal totem for Shor, and the scarab being the Dunmer and Dwemer's symbol for Lorkhan.


      "Finally Trinimac, Auriel's greatest knight, knocked Lorkhan down in front of his army and reached in with more than hands to take his Heart." ~ The Monomyth

      "With his last breath, the Underking's Heart roars a hole through the Battlemage's chest." ~ The Arcturian Heresy

      Ysmir Wulfharth blasting a hole through Arctus's chest was a symbolic transferance of power, making Zurin like Lokrhan, heartless with a big ass hole in his chest, which is why Zurin would later rise and become The Underking like Wulfharth, a known Shezzarine, was.


      And to round it all out, a word from Michael Kirkbride himself.

      http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride

      Lorkhan and his avatars:

      1. Wulfharth L
      2. Hjalti O
      3. Ysmir R
      4. Talos K
      5. Arctus H
      6. Septim A
      N

      Pelinal = Ysmir = Arnand the Fox = Hans the Fox = Tiber Septim = Ysmir Wulfharth = Zurin Arctus = Talos = Avatars of Lorkhan.

      it's a Hobwash

      1. Wulfharth L


      2. Hjalti O


      3. Ysmir R


      4. Talos K


      5. Arctus H


      6. Septim A


      N

      what does it even supposed to means.....? 

      so you're trying to tell me that there is actually 3 Shors living in the same time..................

      and Underkings story's not yet have been officialy stated so he could be either Zurin or Wulfharth, this Underking problem , still remains a mistery 

      and Mr.kirkbird is a former Lore Master & game Designer ,he's definitely not the current Leading TES Loremaster.......right , because the current one is Mr.Schick.but still i respected him in the same way as i respected all other peoples who makes TES franchise born.

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    • Hbxn wrote:
      1. Wulfharth L2. Hjalti O

      3. Ysmir R 4. Talos K 5. Arctus H 6. Septim A N

      what does it even supposed to means.....? 

      It means those are various avatars of Lorkahn

      so you're trying to tell me that there is actually 3 Shors living in the same time.................. and Underkings story's not yet have been officialy stated so he could be either Zurin or Wulfharth, this Underking problem , still remains a mistery

      No, there was only one, because Tiber Septim, Ysmir Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus are just three fractals of the over soul of Talos.

      That's why in Daggerfall no one could get who's soul powered the Numidium's mantella correct, the blades say it was the emperors, Zurin(The Underking) says it was his, the heresy says it was Wulfharth's.

      That is why the Underking story is so confusing, is it Zurin, or is it Wulfharth? If it was Zurin, why are there mentions of the Underking before Zurin was born? If it was The Underking, how can the Underking continue to live even after he died?

      It's also the cause of all the errors in Tiber Septim's life, the orthodxy says he was from Atmora..... yet the last ship from Atmora came in the early 1st Era, ages before Tiber was born, yet the Underking was alive then.

      Tiber = ysmir = zurin, they are all fragments of the over soul of Lorkhan aka Talos.

      Thier confused history is the result of them all being merged togeather, like how no one can tell Sheogorath from any of the past Sheogorath's becuase when each champion became sheo they merged thier indentities togeather.

      and Mr.kirkbird is a former Lore Master & game Designer ,he's definitely not the current Leading TES Loremaster.......right , because the current one is Mr.Schick.but still i respected him in the same way as i respected all other peoples who makes TES franchise born.

      You are aware Kirkbride wrote the Knights of the Nine DLc, the commentaries on the myserius xarxes, the Remanada, the song of pelinal, the white gold concordant, all after he left Bethesda right?

      Also Mr. Schick is the loremaster of TESO, a game full of timeline inaccuracies and lore goofs..... not the TEs series as a whole.

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    • That's a one long fu**ing conversation >.<

      I managed to read only a quarter of it

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    • Madman97-Sorry, didn't feel like signing in. Sajuukhar, could you provide a specific quote that says the gods are dead, and from an actually reliable source, not from a crazy heretic who tried thelp Mehrunes Dagon take over Nirn?  There are many diffrentiating sources from various cultures, some drastically so. You, again as I have said, have no right to tell people what has happened or not. It's still just a theory. You are not able to disclose ours as well. And also, when you say Lorkhan wasn't a Divine, Alessia created the Eight Divine Pantheon from the Divines who contributed most to the creation of Nirn. Lorkhan gave his life, while the others powers were simply drained, confining them to their own realms, what we see as planets. So, Lorkhan is a truer Divine than any of the others, accdi to Alessia's Pantheon logic. So, it can be said he is a Divine. And Akatosh is depicted to have two heads because HE IS THE DRAGON GOD OF TIME. THEY GAVE HIM A HUMAN FACE, BUT SINCE HE IS SOMETIMES DEPICTED AS A DRAGON, HE HAS A DRAGON FACE. You sir, have overread this detail.

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    • 164.116.253.7 wrote:
      Madman97-Sorry, didn't feel like signing in. Sajuukhar, could you provide a specific quote that says the gods are dead, and from an actually reliable source, not from a crazy heretic who tried thelp Mehrunes Dagon take over Nirn? There are many diffrentiating sources from various cultures, some drastically so.

      Every other race's creation myth as stated in the Monomyth?

      Alessia created the Eight Divine Pantheon from the Divines who contributed most to the creation of Nirn. Lorkhan gave his life, while the others powers were simply drained, confining them to their own realms, what we see as planets. So, Lorkhan is a truer Divine than any of the others, accdi to Alessia's Pantheon logic. So, it can be said he is a Divine.

      Except Alessia did not make Lorkhan a divine, and the Aldmeri word for Aedra means "our ancestors", the spirits who gave themselves to the creation of Mundus.

      Lorkhan gave nothing of himself to the creation of Mundus, his heart waas taken from him only after Mundus was created, and thus is not bound to Mundus like the others, thus he is not an Aedra, and not divine, and lesser then any other Aedra/divine in that regard.

      And Akatosh is depicted to have two heads because HE IS THE DRAGON GOD OF TIME. THEY GAVE HIM A HUMAN FACE, BUT SINCE HE IS SOMETIMES DEPICTED AS A DRAGON, HE HAS A DRAGON FACE. You sir, have overread this detail.

      No, you have just blatantly ignored the developer quotes and symbolism and thus missed the detail entirely.

      -Kirkbride saying Akatosh is Lorkhan.
      -Akatosh being time.
      -Lorkhan being space.
      -Space and time being spacetime.
      -The stained glass windows and statues in Oblivion.
      -Akatosh and Lorkhan being the only two beings present in every religion.
      -The duality between Akatosh and Lorkhan's fathers, Anu/Anuiel and Padomay/Sithis.
      -Tiber Septim, the avatar of Lorkhan and Akatosh, being called the two-headed king.
      -The other Shezzarines, Pelinal and Ysmir Wulfharth, also being avatars of both Akatosh and Lorkhan.
      -The statue of Talos in Skyrim depicting him trusting a sword into a snake's mouth.(the snake being the anicent nordic animal totem for Shor)
      -The shrine of Akatosh in Skyrim depicting him thrusting a sword into his own mouth, while he has a snake's body.
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    • I want you to list where they actually say it, not just say "it's in the monomyth." Tell me what it actually says. Otherwise I can consider your theory null and void. Um, yes, Lorkhan did give himself to Nirn. In some myths, his body actually became Nirn, and he had his heart ripped out BECAUSE he tried to create Nirn. If that is not giving oneself to a cause, I don't know what is.

      When the F*** did it say in the game that Lorkhan was Space? Actual quote please, and not from a developer who left Bethesda and made up their own. I want in game quotes.

      Space is the boundless three-dimensional extent in which objects and events have relative position and direction. Time is a dimension in which events can be ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measure of durations of events and the intervals between them, two completly different things.

      Yes, there are stained glass windows. I don't see any of Lorkhan or any statues of him. I don't ever remember Lorkhan being associated with a dragon.

      The only reason of Akatosh and Lorkhan being in every religion is because the men and mer ae dirived from the same species from an ancient common ancestor and had generally similar beliefs. Plus, scholars have already notified that Akatosh and Lorkhans intervention was the most likely explanation for the world.

      The Duality of Padomay and Anu is quite a stupid venture, no offense, as they are polar opposites, Anu being the Static Sameness and king of boring, while Padomay is chaos, void, change.

      The Shezzarine theory is just that, a theory. It does not help your case if we don't actually know if it's true.

      I think your BSing man. When has Talos been called the Two-Headed King? Again, if possible, use in game quotes. Also, if Shor is a watered down version of Lorkhan as some people believe, why would Lorkhan be killing Lorkhan?  Plus, the active intervention of Shor by having Sovngard actually exist and actually have people come there contradicts with the "dead" nature of Lorkhan. Avatar of both Akatosh and Lorkhan, yeah sure, whatever floats your boat pal.

      Um, have you seen the totem of Akatosh in Skyrim? It's a dragon. Not a snake. There is a seperate Dragon and Snake totem in the Nord Pantheon.

      Plus,  who cares what the developers say? If it's not in game, it doesn't fly.

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    • I can safely confirm now that you have not read a single one of my posts, as all the things you have asked for sources on I have given multiple times.

      The Myth of Aurbis

      Finally, the magical beings of Mythic Aurbis told the ultimate story -- that of their own death. For some this was an artistic transfiguration into the concrete, non-magical substance of the world. For others, this was a war in which all were slain, their bodies becoming the substance of the world. For yet others, this was a romantic marriage and parenthood, with the parent spirits naturally having to die and give way to the succeeding mortal races.

      The magical beings, then, having died, became the et'Ada. The et'Ada are the things perceived and revered by the mortals as gods, spirits, or geniuses of Aurbis. Through their deaths, these magical beings separated themselves in nature from the other magical beings of the Unnatural realms.~The Monomyth

      Yokudan, "Satakal the Worldskin"

      Sep went and gathered the rest of the old skins and balled them up, tricking spirits to help him, promising them this was how you reached the new world, by making one out of the old. Many spirits joined in, believing this was good thinking. Tall Papa just shook his head.

      "Pretty soon the spirits on the skin-ball started to die, because they were very far from the real world of Satakal. ~ The Monomyth

      Altmeri "The Heart of the World"

      As their aspects began to die off, many of the et'Ada vanished completely. Some escaped, like Magnus, and that is why there are no limitations to magic. Others, like Y'ffre, transformed themselves into the Ehlnofey, the Earthbones, so that the whole world might not die. Some had to marry and make children just to last. ~ The Monomyth


      No, Lorkhan did not give himself to Nirn, his heart was torn from him AFTER Nirn was created. Lorkhan is not an earthbone, like Arkay, or Dibella, he is not one of the laws of reality. And no, his body did not become Nirn, it became the moons.

      In short, the Moons were and are the two halves of Lorkhan's 'flesh-divinity'. Like the rest of the Gods, Lorkhan was a plane(t) that participated in the Great Construction... except where the Eight lent portions of their heavenly bodies to create the mortal plane(t), Lorkhan's was cracked asunder and his divine spark fell to Nirn as a shooting star "to impregnate it with the measure of its existence and a reasonable amount of selfishness." ~ The Lunar Lorkhan

      As for him being the god of space

      Lorkhan is the Spirit of Nirn, ~ Spirit of Nirn, God of Mortals

      Lokrhan is the spirit of Nirn, Nirn being the mortal realm... aka spcae.


      You lack a basic understanding of physics if you think space and time are two different things, as they are not. You should probably read up on it here.

      As for your belief on stasis and change, no, they are not separate things, or opposites, again, you lack basic understanding of philosophy or physics. This dualism is mentioned in the game itself

      All Tamrielic religions begin the same. Man or mer, things begin with the dualism of Anu and His Other. These twin forces go by many names: Anu-Padomay, Anuiel-Sithis, Ak-El, Satak-Akel, Is-Is Not. ~ The Monomyth
      Masser and Secunda therefore are the personifications of the dichotomy-- the "Cloven Duality," according to Artaeum-- that Lorkhan legends often rail against: ideas of the anima/animus, good/evil, being/nothingness ~ The Lunar Lorkhan


      Except we do know Shzzarines exist

      It is a solid truth that Morihaus was the son of Kyne, but whether or not Pelinal was indeed the Shezarrine is best left unsaid ~ The Song of Pelinal Volume 5

      The people of Tamirel know Shezarrines exist, they, and we, just don't know if Pelinal was one. Although, the devs have confirmed it.


      As for Tiber being called the two-headed king, again, I have listed ingame sources several times, perhaps you should read posts before you respond to them.

      Vivec then saw the moths that would come from the starry heart, bringing with them dust more horrible than the ash of Red Mountain. He saw the twin head of a ruling king who had no equivalent. And eight imperfections rubbed into precious stones, set into a crown that looked like shackles, which he understood to be the twin crowns of the two-headed king. And a river that fed into the mouth of the two-headed king, because he contained multitudes. ~ Sermon 19


      Actually, it was Shezzar who was created from a watered down version of Shor

      Shezarr, as a result, had to change.... In the end, he had become "the spirit behind all human undertaking." Even though this was merely a thinly-disguised, watered-down version of Shor, ~ Shezarr and the Divines

      As for why he would kill himself.

      But when Trinimac and Auriel tried to destroy the Heart of Lorkhan it laughed at them. It said, "This Heart is the heart of the world, for one was made to satisfy the other." ~ The Monomyth
      Lorkhan was condemned by the Gods to exile in the mortal realms, and his heart was torn out and cast from the Tower. Where it landed, a Volcano formed. With Magic (in the Mythic Sense) gone, the Cosmos stabilized. ~ Before the Ages of Man
      The powers also created Red Tower and the First Stone. This allowed the Mundus to exist without the full presence of the divine. In this way, the powers of Ada-mantia granted the Mundus a special kind of divinity, which is called NIRN. ~ Nu-Mantia Intercept
      Others think that Lorkhan created the world as the testing ground for transcendence; to them the spirit realm was already a prison, that true escape is now finally possible. ~ Spirit of Nirn, God of Mortals

      And this is the most-reached destination of all that embark upon this road. Why would Lorkhan and his (unwitting?) agents sabotage their experiments with the Tower? Why would he crumble that which he esteems?

      Perhaps he failed so you might know how not to. ~Vehk's teaching

      Lorkhan killed himself to bring stability to a world that couldn't exist without him, yet, was unstable while he lived, and to show others how to not fail at the path of ascension.

      Also, Sovengarde disproves nothing, again you are equating a god's death as being the same as a mortal's death, Lorkhan's sending of avatars, and the other gods sending of avatars, despite being dead, shows the gods are still very active, even in death.


      Have you seen the state of Akatosh in Skyrim?

      THIS RIGHT HERE is very clearly a snake, you can even see the serpentine body wrapped around the central pillar. Very reminisent of the dragon-serpent statue in Ebonheart

      Note how he clearly lacks the body and legs of dragons from Skyrim, instead having a single serpentine body with no arms or legs, only wings.


      Plus,  who cares what the developers say? If it's not in game, it doesn't fly.

      This is the most idiotic thing one can say.

      Its like saying what George Lucas says about the Star Wars series means nothing, or that what Tolken says about Lord of the Rings means nothing.

      The developers are the people who make and own the world, their world is law because the world is theirs.

      It wouldn't matter if Tolken never wrote down in a book that nothing existed east of Mordor, because he owns the series, and his word on it is LAW regardless.

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    • Heheh, now was that so freaking hard? To list down all the sources? To give out all the quotes? 

      Listen, I respect your undertaking and research into this theory. In fact, I was alway's for it. It's just I need Absolute proof of it other than just speculation taken by in game scholars and books. Unless someone of a reliable source, such as a Deity or someone of that nature or maybe even the Dwemer if we ever see them again, says that Lorkhan was Akatosh, then F***ing fine, he was Akatosh. But I still need definitative proof. No matter how much you delve into this, no matter how reasonable it sounds, it's not going to fly until I see it the game. If your right, then congratulations. If your wrong or if I havn't seen it yet, this theory will just continue to be a theory. 

      Again, I have nothing against it. I applaude you for being passionate about it. But again, I am afraid you won't convince me without proof. I am sorry, but for thing of this nature, I can only speculate. 

      Also, dude that's a f***ing dragon Akatosh shrine. It has wings and it has the head of a dragon. It doesn't have arms or legs because that's how its designed. But seriously, and I think most people would agree. It's a dragon dude. Also, a lot of those passages make no sense. I think you are connecting dots with invisible lines. 

      Also, true, the Developers word is Law. IF it's in the game. What if they say there is no Skyrim? It's law. But why does it exist? THey take the developers words and put them into the game for a reason. And we know there is things East of Mordor because it's actually in the books. And George Lucas directed the Prequils, so I think all of his word was killed.

      And one other thing. With Magic and Monsters running around, I think normal physics go out the F***ing window.

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    • I recon that maybe if the powers of every being was put into one person( including daedra) they might be able to beat the divines.

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    • Here This is Snake ? hmphhhh..... :>

      To Sajur Khan :

      "No, there was only one, because Tiber Septim, Ysmir Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus are just three fractals of the over soul of Talos." 

      these three are having a perfectly different individuality and Backgrounds, Talos consisting three man is one of the most stupid statement ever mentioned by Man , you know why............ Tiber Septim becomes a divine not because he united like power rangers with these three , but it's because he ACHIEVED THE CHIM , thus while talos ascended to godhood, the Underking a.k.a. Zurin/Wulfharth is STILL FUCKIN LIVING ON TAMRIEL...he dwells as a powerfull souless creature in High Rock. i know that you only said it because you read the books and lores......... but not all lore can be right,because some lore are still a RIDLE mE RidLE......,if you know what i mean

      Mr Schick is not just going to be the Leading loremaster of TESO but he'll also be the Loremaster of the future coming TES Franchise.....,i know it because i've ever had contact with him myself.......!!!!

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      I want you to list where they actually say it, not just say "it's in the monomyth." Tell me what it actually says. Otherwise I can consider your theory null and void. Um, yes, Lorkhan did give himself to Nirn. In some myths, his body actually became Nirn, and he had his heart ripped out BECAUSE he tried to create Nirn. If that is not giving oneself to a cause, I don't know what is.

      When the F*** did it say in the game that Lorkhan was Space? Actual quote please, and not from a developer who left Bethesda and made up their own. I want in game quotes.

      Space is the boundless three-dimensional extent in which objects and events have relative position and direction. Time is a dimension in which events can be ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measure of durations of events and the intervals between them, two completly different things.

      Yes, there are stained glass windows. I don't see any of Lorkhan or any statues of him. I don't ever remember Lorkhan being associated with a dragon.

      The only reason of Akatosh and Lorkhan being in every religion is because the men and mer ae dirived from the same species from an ancient common ancestor and had generally similar beliefs. Plus, scholars have already notified that Akatosh and Lorkhans intervention was the most likely explanation for the world.

      The Duality of Padomay and Anu is quite a stupid venture, no offense, as they are polar opposites, Anu being the Static Sameness and king of boring, while Padomay is chaos, void, change.

      The Shezzarine theory is just that, a theory. It does not help your case if we don't actually know if it's true.

      I think your BSing man. When has Talos been called the Two-Headed King? Again, if possible, use in game quotes. Also, if Shor is a watered down version of Lorkhan as some people believe, why would Lorkhan be killing Lorkhan?  Plus, the active intervention of Shor by having Sovngard actually exist and actually have people come there contradicts with the "dead" nature of Lorkhan. Avatar of both Akatosh and Lorkhan, yeah sure, whatever floats your boat pal.

      Um, have you seen the totem of Akatosh in Skyrim? It's a dragon. Not a snake. There is a seperate Dragon and Snake totem in the Nord Pantheon.

      Plus,  who cares what the developers say? If it's not in game, it doesn't fly.

      i totaly agreed with your statements .

      but i think it's quite cool to despicted Lorkhan/Shor as Dragon , you know with Lorkhan being the Frost Dragon and his Little bro AKatosh being a fire dragon...well if you don't like it then never mind my oppinion because it's Unnoff anyway......

      and please don't disrespect the developers , without them maybe we'll not be havin this conversation in this "Elder Scroll" wiki Forum.......,and their words could affect the upcoming game stories,events,and Gameplay

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    • I don't disrespect the developers, I like the developers. I agree, what they say is important. But even still, it has to be in game for it to fly. THat doesn't mean I diss everything they say. Just Sajjukars theory. And Akatosh would be the big bro, given when he was created, Time started.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Heheh, now was that so freaking hard? To list down all the sources? To give out all the quotes? 

      I had done it like 5 times already........

      It's just I need Absolute proof of it other than just speculation taken by in game scholars and books. Unless someone of a reliable source, such as a Deity or someone of that nature or maybe even the Dwemer if we ever see them again, says that Lorkhan was Akatosh, then F***ing fine, he was Akatosh. But I still need definitative proof.

      Its impossible to get absolute proof of annoying via in-game sources because every one of them is biased. The only absolute proof one can get is via quotes from developers who make comments outside the game.......... which you see to ignore for no apparent reason.

      Also, true, the Developers word is Law. IF it's in the game. What if they say there is no Skyrim? It's law. But why does it exist? THey take the developers words and put them into the game for a reason. And we know there is things East of Mordor because it's actually in the books. And George Lucas directed the Prequils, so I think all of his word was killed.

      That's not how a series works... period. If Tolken drew something east of Mordor in the books, and then later said in an interview he changed his mind in some interview, then what he said would be canon, and whatever was in the books would become false. This is how canon works for literally every series ever made.

      As for Skyrim existing after they said it doesnt... it's becuase they lack the magical ability to go back in time and unmake shit they already made from games over a decade ago until now. Skyrim existing in older gmes after they said it doesnt doesnt mean its there, it just means its a relic from past versions of the devloper's vision that they can only remove in newer/future content.

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    • Hbxn wrote: Tiber Septim becomes a divine not because he united like power rangers with these three , but it's because he ACHIEVED THE CHIM

      Tiber Septim became a god not because he achieved CHIM, but because he mantled Lorkhan.

      Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora." ~ Nu-Hatta of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree

      Tiber Septim achieved CHIM, but it was mantling Lorkhan that made him one of the Nine. He used the same process that turned the champion of Cyrodiil into Sheogorath.

      And he did so when he ordered Zurin Arctus to steal Ysmir Wulfharth's soul to power the Numidium, which mirrored the events of creation, where Triminac, under orders of Akatosh, took Lorkhan's heart.

      Akatosh/Lorkhan/Triminac
      Tiber/Ysmir/Zurin

      Which is also part of the reason why Ysmir and Zurin ascended with him.

      thus while talos ascended to godhood, the Underking a.k.a. Zurin/Wulfharth is STILL FUCKIN LIVING ON TAMRIEL...he dwells as a powerfull souless creature in High Rock.

      And? gods have made many avatars before...... see the cases of Wulf, Ama Nin, and Jon Hawker, avatars of Talos, Mara, and Zenithar.


      To Sajur Khan :
      Mr Schick is not just going to be the Leading loremaster of TESO but he'll also be the Loremaster of the future coming TES Franchise.....,i know it because i've ever had contact with him myself.......!!!!

      How childish......... and if you must know, I have actually talked to Kirkbride before.

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    • SajuukKhar wrote:

      Hbxn wrote: Tiber Septim becomes a divine not because he united like power rangers with these three , but it's because he ACHIEVED THE CHIM

      Tiber Septim became a god not because he achieved CHIM, but because he mantled Lorkhan.


      Tiber Septim: "The Stormcrown manted by way of the fourth: the steps of the dead. Mantling and incarnation are separate roads; do not mistake this. The latter is built from the cobbles of drawn-bone destiny. The former: walk like them until they must walk like you. This is the death children bring as the Sons of Hora." ~ Nu-Hatta of the Sphinxmoth Inquiry Tree

      Tiber Septim achieved CHIM, but it was mantling Lorkhan that made him one of the Nine. He used the same process that turned the champion of Cyrodiil into Sheogorath.

      And he did so when he ordered Zurin Arctus to steal Ysmir Wulfharth's soul to power the Numidium, which mirrored the events of creation, where Triminac, under orders of Akatosh, took Lorkhan's heart.

      Akatosh/Lorkhan/Triminac
      Tiber/Ysmir/Zurin

      Which is also part of the reason why Ysmir and Zurin ascended with him.


      thus while talos ascended to godhood, the Underking a.k.a. Zurin/Wulfharth is STILL FUCKIN LIVING ON TAMRIEL...he dwells as a powerfull souless creature in High Rock.
      And? gods have made many avatars before...... see the cases of Wulf, Ama Nin, and Jon Hawker, avatars of Talos, Mara, and Zenithar.


      To Sajur Khan :
      Mr Schick is not just going to be the Leading loremaster of TESO but he'll also be the Loremaster of the future coming TES Franchise.....,i know it because i've ever had contact with him myself.......!!!!
      How childish......... and if you must know, I have actually talked to Kirkbride before.

      you my friend still lost in the void of RIDDLING LORE which's not yet become/is not a fact

      if you want true fact please ask Trusted NPCs in Game not History books which cannot be trusted 100%

      but bah whatever......You just go trust what you trust and I will go trust what i trust ,agreed

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    • Madman97-Didn't feel like signing in again. I agree with Hxbn. Sajjukar. Dude, again, I respec your theory. I would even believe it if it didn't seem like such BS.

      And about mantling Lorkhan. How could Talos become a Divine if he matled Lorkhan, who you claim isn't a Divine. That makes no sense. And if the events of his involvment with the Numidium was parallel to Lorkhan, shouldn't Talos have had his heart ripped out?

      Plus, dude, in game is where it matters. I won't care if the Devlopers said Oblivion didn't happen, it still did. In the game is where we get the base of the Lore, not because some developer says he wants this to happen. Write a F***ing fan-fiction if you want this bulls*** to fly, stop pretending like you know everything about the Elder Scrolls, and go get a life and play some GTA V.

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    • 164.116.253.7 wrote:
      Madman97-Didn't feel like signing in again. I agree with Hxbn. Sajjukar. Dude, again, I respec your theory. I would even believe it if it didn't seem like such BS.

      And about mantling Lorkhan. How could Talos become a Divine if he matled Lorkhan, who you claim isn't a Divine. That makes no sense. And if the events of his involvment with the Numidium was parallel to Lorkhan, shouldn't Talos have had his heart ripped out?

      Plus, dude, in game is where it matters. I won't care if the Devlopers said Oblivion didn't happen, it still did. In the game is where we get the base of the Lore, not because some developer says he wants this to happen. Write a F***ing fan-fiction if you want this bulls*** to fly, stop pretending like you know everything about the Elder Scrolls, and go get a life and play some GTA V.

      Almighty god................ you've played GTA V Already!!!!!

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    • 164.116.253.7 wrote:
      And about mantling Lorkhan. How could Talos become a Divine if he matled Lorkhan, who you claim isn't a Divine. That makes no sense. And if the events of his involvment with the Numidium was parallel to Lorkhan, shouldn't Talos have had his heart ripped out?

      Because "The Divines" is just a religious system created by Alessia, the thing that makes one a "Divine" is if Alessia put them in the pantheon/they were added in later, which they did for Talos, and didn't for Lorkhan.

      I think you are confusing Divines for Aedra, which neither Lorkhan or Talos, and possibly Arkay, are, as Aedra are the spirits who gave themselves to the creation of Mundus, which neither Lorkhan and Talos did.

      And no..... his heart shouldn't have been ripped out. Just as Sheogorath was created from Lorkhan having his heart ripped out, and Sheogorath's first champion, Arden-Sul, mantled Sheograth by having his heart ripped out/destroyed, but the Champion of Cyrodiil mantled Sheogorath via his cane, Tiber Septim mantled Lorkhan via the creation event, rather then the specific heart being ripped out part.

      Also, since Akatosh is Lorkhan, and Wulfharth, Tiber, and Zurin are all part of the same oversoul, it doesn't matter who actually got their heart ripped out. As your mantling the same guy no matter what place you are in.

      Kinda like how Martin Septim mantled Akatosh by destroying the oversoul of the emperors, The Amulet of Kings, when having your heart/soul destroyed is more of a Lorkhan thing.

      Plus, dude, in game is where it matters. I won't care if the Devlopers said Oblivion didn't happen, it still did. In the game is where we get the base of the Lore, not because some developer says he wants this to happen.

      If Todd Howard said Oblivion never happened, then it didn't. That is how lore, canon, and series continuity works for literally every series in existence.

      I feel like you are just arguing now for the sake of arguing, and just so you don't have to accept things you don't like are true.

      Its like saying Tolken is wrong about the Lord of the Rings never actually happening in Middle Earth, and that it's just a story there, after he said it was just a story in an interview, simply because you don't like that.

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    • No, I am argueing because I think this whole thing is bulls***. I can't really refute because we don't actually know what happened, so this whole thing of yours is just one big guess. You don't actually know if Akatosh is Lorkhan, you don't actually know that they had al these avatars.

       And I don't remember getting a cane in the the Shivering Isles quest. 

       Possibly the only thing I might consider actually agreeing with you is Talos mantling Lorkhan, because that actually seems likely. But all the other stuff, no. 

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    • I think I need to point out something about this discussion.

      A lot of this is based on Michael Kirkbridge. He did a lot of work on the Elder Scrolls series, yes, but he also, by his OWN admission, did lots of roleplaying in various forms involving the Elder Scrolls series.

      They are interesting, certainly, and do add to the series, certainly, but they can not be considered fully canon.

      If Todd Howard said something about this recently, then that is a different story, because Todd Howard is a continuing developer in the game series, whereas MK left and then went on to continue as a RPer for some time.

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    • Hbxn
      Hbxn removed this reply because:
      tau ah
      14:21, September 20, 2013
      This reply has been removed
    • Timeoin wrote: whereas MK left and then went on to continue as a RPer for some time.

      MK doesnt RP......... I think you are misusing that word.

      Also, MK wrote Knights of the Nine, the Remanada, The Song of Pelinal, The Commentaries on the Mysterium Xarxes, The White-Gold Concordant, came up with the ideas of The Towers, Kalpas, and giants/ancient Nords swirl patterns, all of which were used in Skyrim, and he wrote Heimskr's and Mankar Camoran's dialog..... after he had left Bethesda.

      Kirkbride is only "gone" in the sense that he doesn't officialy work for Bethesda, however, Bethesda regularly acknowledges his ideas, and re-hires him to write new content for their games, and is still good friends wit the Bethesda development team, to the point of knowing what they are going to do before they announce it.

      Hell, Kirkbride was even asked to take down his work SHOR SON OF SHOR for a time because it contained spoilers about Skyrim.

      Kurt Kuhlmann, designer of Oblivion, and co-lead designer of Skyrim, even acknowledged that the game Skyrim is basically Kirkbride's work, as it is based off of the pocket guide to the empire description he wrote of the province.

      The "he doesn't work at Bethesda" excuse is a fallacy, and a rather poor one, given how constant his newer works have beenincluded and ackowleged by the Bethesda staff.

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    • Even so, there is conflict within it. As an experienced novel writer, I can safely say that sometimes, the story gets a bit out of the developers hands. Sometimes it's not me telling the characters what to do anymore than than the characters telling me what to write. In one of my novels, I had an idea, but the book was already done. But I already had an ending to the story and when I tried to tell my fanbase what I thought should happen, they accused me of being s George Lucas. Once something gets out there, it's out there, and it's not going to change, even if the person who created it tries to change it. Like George Lucas did with the prequels. He did some things that differed heavily from the original and people hated it, and it didn't correlate well with the original vision. Ask yourself something Sajjukar, would you totally discard Oblivion if the developers said it didn't happen? Uh, no, what idiot would? Everyone who ever loved Oblivion would hate it if the Elder Scrolls 6 totally disregarding the events prior. Bethesda isn't dumb enough to do that. They're in the business to make money, and whatever obstacles they have they try to sway from. With a large Lore fanbase, finding out it disregards Oblivion would be a dumb idea. 

      Bethesda already has an established set of rules, an established set of stories, that one can't just go in and change, unless they took the lazy route and just say a dragon break did it, but after Skyrim, dragon breaks are old hat.


        

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    • SajuukKhar wrote:
      Timeoin wrote: whereas MK left and then went on to continue as a RPer for some time.
      MK doesnt RP......... I think you are misusing that word.


      No? You linked to the Imperial Library earlier in the thread.

      Allow me to do the same: 

      Imperial Library: Forum Achives Micahel Kirkbride.

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    • Timeoin wrote:
      No? You linked to the Imperial Library earlier in the thread.

      Allow me to do the same: 

      Imperial Library: Forum Achives Micahel Kirkbride.

      Yeah.... out of all the things in MK's forum archives, none of them are RPs, and out of the 40ish topic MK has talked about that are saved there, only about 3-4 of them could be misconstrued as RPs.

      They are either out of universe explanations, or explanations of a particular races view.

      Do you know what RPing is?

      This, Skeleton Man's Interview with Denizens of Tamirel, and this, Interview With Two Denizens of the Shivering Isles is RP.

      See, what makes RP an RP is that you act like you are a character in the fictional universe, hence, why it's called role playing, RP for short. Giving explanations of things from a real-world perspective, or expressing one race's particular views =/= RP, since you aren't acting like you are a character, your just explaining the views of one.

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    • I believe Sajuuk has won this one Madman. Sorry I've been off the forum for a little bit since my internet is down and its taken me a couple days to catch up on this thread with the few minutes I can spare at work on my phone. Altough there were a couple small holes in both your arguments I've found here and there. But having tobpress on and finish reading I already forgot them.

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    • Oh Contrare. He staes his theory like he actually knows it happened. However, it is mere speculation, like all of this. You can only be optimistic about his theory at best. No one has won until it actually is stated or happens within the game,

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Oh Contrare. He staes his theory like he actually knows it happened. However, it is mere speculation, like all of this. You can only be optimistic about his theory at best. No one has won until it actually is stated or happens within the game,

      Join DwemerUncovered? 

      Cthe (talk) 14:10, September 27, 2013 (UTC)

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    • Not sure what that is.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Not sure what that is.

      Well I'd say as far as we know daedra can be defeated by aedra, but aedra can only be defeated by aedra (Lorkan) 

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    • Not outright fighting, goodness no. No see, if I could direct you to my theory blogs, you will find that throughout the many instances of Tamriels history, the Gods did not do outright bttle, but trickery. It is mischief that wins the day. Lorkhan tricked the Aedra, Boethia tricked Trinimac into going into its mouth, all that good stuff.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Not outright fighting, goodness no. No see, if I could direct you to my theory blogs, you will find that throughout the many instances of Tamriels history, the Gods did not do outright bttle, but trickery. It is mischief that wins the day. Lorkhan tricked the Aedra, Boethia tricked Trinimac into going into its mouth, all that good stuff.

      Who did Malacath trick? :P

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    • I would say the Orcs. Just my guess, though.

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    • I do not recall Malacath tricking anyone. The Orcs were Trinimac's followers who were changed along with him when Trinimac became Malacath.Tricking doesn't really seem Malacath's style.

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    • Shor isn't in the hall of valor as his appearence is too powerful for a mortal to comprehend, as said by one of the heroes in the hall of valor.

      The heart of lorkhan didn't blow up the red mountain, some Mage trapped lots of souls in what I would assume to be a soul gem. In an attempt to release one of the trapped souls (almost definitely someone he knew) they all escaped. The power of this crashed into the ground and caused the red mountain to blow up. As stated on one of he Dragonborn DLC loading screens.

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    • Could you perhaps get an image of that loading screen? Because I remember no say of a guy who blew up a soul gem. And no the Heart of Lorkhan was destroyed in Morrowind. As for Shor, either that because there actually was a mortal there who was not dead and so chose not to appear, or it affirms that Lorkhan is still actually kind of dead.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Could you perhaps get an image of that loading screen? Because I remember no say of a guy who blew up a soul gem. And no the Heart of Lorkhan was destroyed in Morrowind. As for Shor, either that because there actually was a mortal there who was not dead and so chose not to appear, or it affirms that Lorkhan is still actually kind of dead.

      ......

      The Heart of Lorkhan can't be destroyed. If it could be, destroying it would destroy Mundus too.

      Shor doesn't appear because his holy light would blind mortals.

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    • Well, it was destroyed. Look it up on Morrowind. 

      Everyone in Sovngard is dead. I don't think it would matter.

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    • No, it wasn't. Read up on lore. The gods themselves could not destroy it, for the heart was beyond them.

      I'll try and get this as accurate as I can : 

      "The gods tore the heart from the trickster Lorkhan and attempted to destroy it. But the heart simply laughed and said '"You cannot destroy me, for I and Mundus are one and the same. One cannot exist without the other."'

      Seing as the universe is indestructible, it makes sense.

      Souls are not mortal.

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    • true it is destroyed , if it's not destroyed how do i / nerevarine able to beat Dagoth Ur 

      and if it's not destroyed why do Alxmalexia and other Tribunal lost their Godly powers...

      The thing that is not Destroyed from Lorkhan/Shor is his soul......., his soul still remains in Sovngarde and reason of why he can't be seen is already mentioned above by MOS and Daedric Warrior, well i wish i can see him.....one day........

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    • Right right, my mistake. The heart was not physically destroyed. What I meant to say was that it's power was cut off, so it's useless now. That's how Dagoth Ur was defeated.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Right right, my mistake. The heart was not physically destroyed. What I meant to say was that it's power was cut off, so it's useless now. That's how Dagoth Ur was defeated.

      it's funny when he's speaking the crap of that i can never defeated him , while i was heading to  his source of power..............

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    • Ive actually never played Morrowind, just know a bunch of stuff from it. I'll take your word for it it was quite hilarious.

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    • Madman97 wrote:
      Ive actually never played Morrowind, just know a bunch of stuff from it. I'll take your word for it it was quite hilarious.

      you can played it by buying ES Anthology, Graphics of Morrowind definitely<Oblivion<Skyrim

      but it's storyline are rather magnificent....... 

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    • My answer to the original question:

      You need to be a Dwemer to fight a divine. Tricking a Daedra (Azura), tapping into a "dead" god's heart to bestow power...if only they had a few more years to study shit so they could dominate the world, and all worlds. Well, I'm sure they're happy wherever they are now, uninfluenced by Aedra, Daedra, Divines, whatever.

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