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  • Are the Tsaesci truly serpentine folk or are they men? The sources that claim that they are serpent folk seems to outnumber the other sources that claim that they are men. However, inside Sky Haven Temple on Alduin's Wall, the Tsaesci are kneeling before the Dragonborn and are depicted to have humanoid figures. The Annotated Anuad lists the Tsaesci as one of the races of man. It is claimed that they "ate" the men on Akiviri but "ate" could men a lot of things. So what do you think the Tsaesci truly are?

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    • There are books which mention the Tsaesci, which make it clear that they are not human.  There's one in particular, though I can't remember the title, which describes a duel in the Imperial Arena between a human knight and a Tsaesci warrior, who is mentioned to have a long tail and (I think?) scales.  Also, as I recall, Potentate Versiduie-Shae (sp?) governed the empire for considerably longer than any human could have.

      When I think of them, I visualize them as roughly humanoid but slimmer, with a tail, long neck and snake-like head.

      Annotated Anuad may be inaccurate, or may just have a particularly broad definition of 'men' (it wouldn't be the only book to do this - Racial Phylogeny mentions that some researchers believe Argonians to be an offshoot of humanity)

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    • Somebody Stole My Sweetroll wrote:
      There are books which mention the Tsaesci, which make it clear that they are not human.  There's one in particular, though I can't remember the title, which describes a duel in the Imperial Arena between a human knight...

      Potentate could have made his life-span longer through magic. And maybe the Tsaesci are different from the humans in Tamriel so they live longer. And "Serpeant folk" could be a nickname as they may be called that due to their armor (Dragonscale), fighting style, and riding dragons. Sky Haven Tample was built by the Tsaesci according to Esbern so if they were truly snake-men, they should have depicted themselves as snake-men, not humans.

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    • Also, I don't believe books are always accurate. Like in the Five Songs of Wulfharth where it says that Alduin can shout a mans age away but he should have done that in Sovngarde.

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    • I haven't been to Sky haven in a long while...does Esbern say that it was built by Tsaesci specifically?  I know the original Blades were Akaviri - but there are several different species in Akavir, so if it doesn't actually use the word Tsaesci, they might not be the ones.

      If it does explicitly identify the Tsaesci by name, then I'm not sure why the carvings are human-shaped.

      Presumably, if the nickname relates to their armour and the other factors you mentioned, they would have been called 'Dragon folk', not 'serpent folk' (since dragons have no resemblance to snakes beyond the fact that both have scales and tails, it's hard to see how the two would get mixed up)

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    • Even if it was humans that carved it, they still shouldn't have gotten their depiction wrong as they should have seen them.

      Serpents, not snakes. Serpentine Dragons.

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    • Or they could have had serpeant-like gods that they worship instead of the Aedra or Daedra.  In Sky Haven Temple there are murals of snakes and snake-like men on the walls, but on Alduin's Wall, the Tsaesci dragonguard are depicted as humans.

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    • Maybe their tails are just hidden

      o.O

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    • But if it was humans who made the carvings (not Tsaesci), then the carvings are right to depict humans (not Tsaesci).

      Also, I've seen the serpentine dragons and to be honest, they're not very serpentine.  I would think that any reference to them would still call them dragons, rather than misleadingly calling them by the name of a completely different creature.  Yes, they're (slightly) more snake-like than other dragons, but not enough to justify such intentionally-confusing references.

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    • Maybe its the same story with Tsaesci, they call them serpent like, but they are much more like humanoids

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    • Somebody Stole My Sweetroll wrote:
      But if it was humans who made the carvings (not Tsaesci), then the carvings are right to depict humans (not Tsaesci).

      Also, I've seen the serpentine dragons and to be honest, they're not very serpentine.  I would think that any reference to them would still call them dragons, rather than misleadingly calling them by the name of a completely different creature.  Yes, they're (slightly) more snake-like than other dragons, but not enough to justify such intentionally-confusing references.

      The Tsaesci kneeled down to Reman because they recognized him as Dragonborn and swore unceasing loyalty to him. Esbern explained that the Tsaesci built Sky Haven Temple in one of their invasions.

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      • Some of the Tsaesci kneeled down to him
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    • Maybe there are more than one kind of Tsaesci, like the Khajiit. A more bestial kind and a more 'human' one. Maybe they just related them like that  (serpent-like) for the dragons they rode. But truth is, there isn't enough confirmed proof to make out an image clearly.

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    • In that case, I don't know.  I still lean toward the idea that they're literally serpent-people, purely because there are many sources supporting it, and as far as I know only this one suggestion of them being human.

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    • Somebody Stole My Sweetroll wrote:
      In that case, I don't know.  I still lean toward the idea that they're literally serpent-people, purely because there are many sources supporting it, and as far as I know only this one suggestion of them being human.

      True but in my logic:

      Seeing things in-game > Reading it in books

      So I would probably say they are humans if they depict themselves as it in Alduin's wall. Then again, there are murals of snake-men in Sky Haven Temple. But that could just mean the gods they worship. As I said, they probably earned their name "snake-men" due to the gods they worship.

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    • To answer your last remark, by that logic everybody who worships Akatosh would be described as 'dragon-men'.  I think that if the Tsaesci are described as snake-men, it's probably because they literally are snake-men.  The murals of both humanoid and snake-like figures more likely depict Tsaesci and their humanoid allies.

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    • Or maybe the Tsaesci enslaved some of the humans on Akiviri instead of eliminating them and forced them to help them in invasions. But all the humans probably died after the Tsaesci invaded Tamriel the first time.

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    • Also possible.  Or the humanoid figures could represent the later generations of Blades, who came from Tamriel and presumably were human.  Or they might be Tang Mo, another Akaviri race who are described as 'monkey-people', so presumably are more-or-less human-shaped.

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    • The Tang Mo are presumably enemies with the Tsaesci. They are working with the Ka'Po'Tun to wipe out the Tsaesci.

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    • That is true, but remember that alliances can shift.  Also, not every member of a given race shares the same politics (there are Stormcloak Nords and pro-Imperial Nords, so perhaps there are - or were - also dissident factions among the Akaviri races).

      That said, I agree that the Tang Mo are unlikely candidates - I mentioned them only as a vague possibility, but humans seem much more likely to me.

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    • May i just point out that the only refences to people building Sky Haven Temple said that it was built by the Akaviri, not the Tsaesci, so they are probably not them depicted on the wall, so the Tsaesci are more peobably serpent men.

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    • Yeah, I thought that was the case.  I couldn't check it as my XBox is being repaired at present.

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    • Anyways, the only reason I made this thread is because it seems that the only active thread in the Lore Discussion board is "Jyggalag and TES VI Plot".

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    • I believe they are similar to the Argonians but more serpent looking.So humanoid with snake like skin and features maybe even an off shoot of the Argonians racial lineage

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    • No, I do not have a lot of proof. But this is meant for theories. You should take this as seriously as the theory of the Earth being Flat, and Nirn being a Bright Blue Dodecahedron!


      Most sources point to them being humanoid. And about the serpent people thing... Many different theories could help to explain it.

      Dragonscale Armor

      Natives to Akavir who are Snake Men were used as slave warriors. (a Medusa creature was in TES: Arena.)

      Here's my theory and as with all theories, this should be taken with a very large grain of salt.

      Argonians, while assumed to be native to Tamriel, are actually from Akavir. The Tsaesci came to Tamriel before Men and Mer. And before the 3 invasions predicted by Vivec. The Elves might not have had too many problems with the Tsaesci, or maybe they did; but there were never any reported stories due to Black Marsh being a giant freaking Swamp. When Nedes came to Tamriel it is possible that the Tsaesci captured and enslaved some of them, which would lead to the 'Human Akaviri' or the future Blades. The Tsaesci are described as Snake Men, Argonians would quite obviously be described as Lizardfolk at the very least; but I have some proof* to support my theory.

      A subrace of Argonians called Naga, described as Argonians that had heads that resemble Puff Adders. The Naga are known to be very violent in modern Black Marsh, the Tsaesci seem to be violent as well, according to every single record there is. It's possible that the Tsaesci had different tribes, or groups it's possible one of these could have had a name similar to Saxhleel.

      What we do know is that Argonians have very little history tied to them, and the same goes for the Tsaesci. It's possible that some of the Tsaesci were left behind after they came to Tamriel, or maybe they were some kind of a rebel faction setting out to find their own home away from their war-driven leaders. Maybe they could have fled from Akavir after they fought with the Kamal.

      It's possible that the Tsaesci Argonians were a more peaceful group, or just a group that wished to keep to themselves. They could have gone through severe cultural changes after their colonization of Black Marsh. Especially due to the Elves' invasions, and the slavery of the Argonians.

      'Some evolutionary connection may exist between the Argonians, Tsaesci, and the Hist as they are all reptilian and the Hist was one of only two races that evolved into the current ones.' -TES Wiki                                                                                   Apparently I'm not the only one who believes this theory.

      (* Naga )

      Some other good Articles to look at...

      Akaviri Invasions

      Akavir

      Black Marsh

      Kamal

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    • Wow. I never thought of it that way! Though you are wrong on the first part because the sources that claim that they are reptilian slightly outnumbers the sources that claim they are humanoid. But you may be right on the rest.

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    • 24.44.141.89 wrote:
      Also, I don't believe books are always accurate. Like in the Five Songs of Wulfharth where it says that Alduin can shout a mans age away but he should have done that in Sovngarde.

      That's because of a misconception between Alduin and Akatosh in the Nordic pantheon.  Akatosh can shout a man's age away because he is the divine associated with time.

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    • Tsaesci are Serpentine folk, but it can be guessed that there are humans amongst their empire as made apparent by these quotes.

      "His leg was hurt badly, but I managed to help heal it with an ampoule of medicine I carried with me."

      "I think the boulder shattered my spine. I can no longer feel my legs."

      -Akaviri Diary Translation

      These quotes were written by one of the Akaviri soldiers at the Pale Pass. It is known that the Tsaesci do not have legs but instead slither on a snake-like appendage.

      "The Potentate Versidue-Shaie and his son Savirien-Chorak slithered into the room"

      -2920, vol 12 - Evening Star

      So by this it can be concluded that men, or at least some other race, did in fact work alongside the Tsaesci.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:

      It is known that the Tsaesci do not have legs but instead slither on a snake-like appendage.

      "The Potentate Versidue-Shaie and his son Savirien-Chorak slithered into the room"

      Slithered can be a figurative word, use to as a discription on how a bad person slinked into the room. Versidue-Shaie might have been a snake man with legs (like an argonian), its could be just a figurative way of discribing his movements cause he is a snake guy.

      For all we all know, the Tsaesci are not one race - they are like the empire, made up of many different races identifying under a common collective. We do not really know much from their social structure and stuff, so they might not even be a definitive race, just a group of like minded people working together for come common goal, with Tsaesci being a collective term to describe this group of people.

      I am basing this on the assumption that all the books we have on them that are discriptive enough are NOT written by an Akaviri or Tsaesci - after all, third party sources are best taken with a pinch of salt.

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    • The Tsaesci are snake-like vampiric beings that are able to assimilate at will the features of the beings that they feed on. Hence why assimilation and consumption are of similar meaning in their native tongue.

      When they "consumed" the dragons, they were trying to become like them... this is spelled out pretty clearly in mysterious akavir. And as shown in their culture afterwords they maintained red dragons as mounts.

      They did the same with men, becoming man-like in appearance and maintaining a population of humans in their service to maintain these features they desired.

      Most likely the Tsaesci nation is composed of a good number of humans and snake people.

      For the record I have not once seen the human(oid) population of the Tsaesci called "tsaesci" every single time they are human-like they are reffered only as "Akaviri". The word is never spoken when reffering to Sky Haven temple or anything... just the word Akaviri.

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    • Its really obvious from the writing in Mysterious Akavir that this is what the writer, Michael Kirkbride, intended.

      now I may be really hateful of Kirkbrides work post employment but anything he created during employment with Bethesda is obviously psuedo-canon at the very least, and anything post-employment could be considered a sort of... canon-in-training.

      You can see better the intentions he had with the Tsaesci when you read another of his works on the matter, I dont know when he wrote "The Tsaesci Creation Myth And we ate it to become it" but it makes what he meant in the Mysterious akavir a looooot clearer.

      Sort of... it just makes it clear that when the Tsaesci eat something... they turn into that something. At least that is what I think it is saying... the text is confusing and I am tired.

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    • 218.186.253.176 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:

      It is known that the Tsaesci do not have legs but instead slither on a snake-like appendage.

      "The Potentate Versidue-Shaie and his son Savirien-Chorak slithered into the room"

      Slithered can be a figurative word, use to as a discription on how a bad person slinked into the room. Versidue-Shaie might have been a snake man with legs (like an argonian), its could be just a figurative way of discribing his movements cause he is a snake guy.

      For all we all know, the Tsaesci are not one race - they are like the empire, made up of many different races identifying under a common collective. We do not really know much from their social structure and stuff, so they might not even be a definitive race, just a group of like minded people working together for come common goal, with Tsaesci being a collective term to describe this group of people.

      I am basing this on the assumption that all the books we have on them that are discriptive enough are NOT written by an Akaviri or Tsaesci - after all, third party sources are best taken with a pinch of salt.

      "His counter-strike met only air as his foe fell flat to the ground and slithered between his legs, tripping him"

      "When Savirien-Chorak was rearing back to begin another series of blinding attacks, the Prince kicked at his tail, sending him falling back momentarily"

      -2920, vol 01 - Morning Star

      "How that Akaviri could slither across the grass without making a sound was a mystery to him."

      -2920, vol 03 - First Seed

      "Savirien-Chorak slithered to the wall"

      -2920, vol 06 - Mid Year

      I am a snake, your Imperial Majesty, inside and out.

      -2920, vol 12 - Evening Star

      Everytime these Akavri move it is said that they "slithered", so it seems to be that it is a bit more literall than it is figurative.

      It's pretty damn obvious that the Tsaesci are intended to be serpents (the fact that they are referred to as sepent-men/snake-men should honestly be enough evidence to prove that).

      It is most probable that men lived amongst the Tsaesci.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:

      "His counter-strike met only air as his foe fell flat to the ground and slithered between his legs, tripping him"

      "When Savirien-Chorak was rearing back to begin another series of blinding attacks, the Prince kicked at his tail, sending him falling back momentarily"

      -2920, vol 01 - Morning Star

      "How that Akaviri could slither across the grass without making a sound was a mystery to him."

      -2920, vol 03 - First Seed

      "Savirien-Chorak slithered to the wall"

      -2920, vol 06 - Mid Year

      I am a snake, your Imperial Majesty, inside and out.

      -2920, vol 12 - Evening Star

      Everytime these Akavri move it is said that they "slithered", so it seems to be that it is a bit more literall than it is figurative.

      It's pretty damn obvious that the Tsaesci are intended to be serpents (the fact that they are referred to as sepent-men/snake-men should honestly be enough evidence to prove that).

      It is most probable that men lived amongst the Tsaesci.

      In real life, if argonians were real, I think you can trip them by stepping on their tail if they were maneouvering really fast. Also, I never said the Tsaesci weren't serpent men, but they could walk on legs and still have a long tail, that could be a hinderence if stepped on, kicked hard enough (cause the tail is not prehensile) or pinned down. Some animals need their tails for balance. Slithered can be figurative, as the potentate and his son were snake men, plus they were crafty and sly, so its kind of a double barrel figurative word, especially if their gait forced their tail to swing around as they walked akin to serpentine motion.

      The only Tsaesci we saw here are the Potentate and his son as well (we can assume his wife was a snake person as well) - I did write that they might be a collective of various races under one banner. Just because one person looks like that does not mean everyone else is (for example if you were really handsome (if you're a guy) or beautiful (if you're a girl), I can't assume your whole family looks like you, as they could be ugly...). Unless there was a huge quantifying statement released by Beth that the whole Tsaesci are a single race of snake men, we can't assume such except for the Potentate, where its clearly discribed. In fact, I question the accuracy of the books, cause they can be part truth part fantasy, like the chinese literature "Romance of the Three Kingdoms". The author cannot be seen as 100% reliable, as this is still a secondary source in a way. So, the main problem is that unless we saw a Tsaesci first hand, they can be anything, snakes, argonians, men/mer in fancy dress, eldritch abominations, tiny dragons... 

      What I am saying is that there is really no point about debating this (although your use of evidence is pretty good), because the evidence is so little and applies to so little people that there is no concrete way anyone can really prove anything, unless Beth releases a official statement, or makes a game were Tsaesci are a race and you play as them.

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    • I think honestly whether or not the Potentate and his son had legs or not depends on how many humans they consumed... I firmly believe taht the Tsaesci had to space their feeding on certain beings as to not absorb too many of the traits of that people.

      otherwise they may lose to many of their own traits... become as men themselves. That is just a theory though, but there is evidence to suggest they assimilated the traits of beings/people they fed on.

      I find it likely the Tsaesci kingdom is comprised of mainly humans with maybe a 10-20% population of Tsaesci themselves.

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    • 218.186.253.234 wrote:

      I did write that they might be a collective of various races under one banner. Just because one person looks like that does not mean everyone else is (for example if you were really handsome (if you're a guy) or beautiful (if you're a girl), I can't assume your whole family looks like you, as they could be ugly...). Unless there was a huge quantifying statement released by Beth that the whole Tsaesci are a single race of snake men, we can't assume such except for the Potentate, where its clearly discribed. In fact, I question the accuracy of the books, cause they can be part truth part fantasy, like the chinese literature "Romance of the Three Kingdoms". The author cannot be seen as 100% reliable, as this is still a secondary source in a way. So, the main problem is that unless we saw a Tsaesci first hand, they can be anything, snakes, argonians, men/mer in fancy dress, eldritch abominations, tiny dragons... 

      (I know I am quoting myself...)

      Dosen't anyone read this bit? Its the most important...

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    • the tsaesci could even be shapeshifters, weresnakes or something changin between snakes and men at will (or maybe against their will) they could shapeshift like the bad guy from blade trinity from "human" to "old testament demon-vampire"

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    • Mysterious Akavir makes it very clear taht when a tsaesci eats something, that they become it... As the in-game book was written by Kirkbride... we can deduce his intentions when writing by looking at the tsaesci creation myth.

      while it may not be canon, it can be used to decipher the INTENTIONS of what is written in mysterious akavir. The name of the creation myth is... I think "we become what we eat"

      implying they are "shapeshifters" in some sense, but they need to consume something in some sense to assume its shape.

      This line from mysterious Akavir makes it very clear

      "The serpent-folk ate all the Men of Akavir a long time ago, but still kind of look like them."

      there is a direct connection here between the Serpent Folk eating the men, and looking like the men... Has nobody but me ever questioned this sentence? Why would the serpent-folk look like men at all? why would their man-like appearance degrade with time? and why would eating men be connected to the act of consumption.

      The most obvious way to interpret this is "The snake people consumed the men to gain their appearence, and despite it being so long ago they still resemble them"

      this is supported by the later line in Mysterious Akavir

      "After the Serpent-Folk ate all the Men, they tried to eat all the Dragons."

      There is no logical reason for them to eat the dragons unless it incurred some sort of distinct benefit. And then this line indicates the state of humanity in their culture.

      "They managed to enslave the Red Dragons,"

      To the Tsaesci "eat" is a word they share with "assimilation" as in to absorb or to bring into their culture. Its this way because to consume the blood or flesh of a being does the same to themselves.

      To me its very clear the Tsaesci are a society of snake-like vampires that absorb the traits of the beings they feed on (whether the process is involuntary or they can choose to take specific traits is unknown) and that they likely have kept a myriad of Akaviri men in their service for ages, using them as the bulk of their soldiers and invasive forces.

      And those that do join men in combat have likely absorbed enough man-like traits to pass for one.

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    • Ralok wrote:
      Mysterious Akavir makes it very clear taht when a tsaesci eats something, that they become it... As the in-game book was written by Kirkbride... we can deduce his intentions when writing by looking at the tsaesci creation myth.

      while it may not be canon, it can be used to decipher the INTENTIONS of what is written in mysterious akavir. The name of the creation myth is... I think "we become what we eat"

      implying they are "shapeshifters" in some sense, but they need to consume something in some sense to assume its shape.

      This line from mysterious Akavir makes it very clear

      "The serpent-folk ate all the Men of Akavir a long time ago, but still kind of look like them."

      there is a direct connection here between the Serpent Folk eating the men, and looking like the men... Has nobody but me ever questioned this sentence? Why would the serpent-folk look like men at all? why would their man-like appearance degrade with time? and why would eating men be connected to the act of consumption.

      The most obvious way to interpret this is "The snake people consumed the men to gain their appearence, and despite it being so long ago they still resemble them"

      this is supported by the later line in Mysterious Akavir

      "After the Serpent-Folk ate all the Men, they tried to eat all the Dragons."

      There is no logical reason for them to eat the dragons unless it incurred some sort of distinct benefit. And then this line indicates the state of humanity in their culture.

      "They managed to enslave the Red Dragons,"

      To the Tsaesci "eat" is a word they share with "assimilation" as in to absorb or to bring into their culture. Its this way because to consume the blood or flesh of a being does the same to themselves.

      To me its very clear the Tsaesci are a society of snake-like vampires that absorb the traits of the beings they feed on (whether the process is involuntary or they can choose to take specific traits is unknown) and that they likely have kept a myriad of Akaviri men in their service for ages, using them as the bulk of their soldiers and invasive forces.

      And those that do join men in combat have likely absorbed enough man-like traits to pass for one.

      This is probably the true answer.

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    • The Tsaesci, which means Snake Palace, are a race of vampiric serpents originating from the continent of Akavir, east of Tamriel

      Quoted from UESP.net I know it's unofficial, but it's the best i've seen

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    • The Tsaesci, which means Snake Palace, are a race of vampiric serpents originating from the continent of Akavir, east of Tamriel. The serpent-folk apparently "ate" the men that lived on Akavir, although this phrase could mean that they assimilated with them as a culture.[1] Their appearance has been described differently on many occasions, the only consistency being that they are "tall, beautiful (if frightening), [and] covered in golden scales." They have been described as having human upper bodies and serpentine lower bodies in some cases and being entirely snake-like in others. The Tsaesci are known to fight without shields or armor, using only swords in combat.[2] The nature of the race is a tapestry of historical contradictions, so what little is known about them is uncertain. It is impossible to separate fact from possible embellishments by storytellers eager to make the Tsaesci more monstrous.

      full quote^

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    • http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tsaesci-creation-myth-and-we-ate-it-become-it

      "We ate it and become it."

      I think we can say the Tsaesci absorbed the Men of Akavir. Maybe the Tsaesci are not even a biological race as such, but a cultural unit. It is worth mentioning how many concepts the (admittedly very confusing) Tsaesci creation myth shares with Sermon 21 of the 36 Lessons of Vivec: The coiling and biting and circles... I think the sermon might describe a "reptilian" view of the world, and maybe the Tsaesci are just people (of different biological races) defined by that teaching. This is hardly unpredecented in TES: *All* Elven peoples are defined by their metaphysical view on the world as well, after all. And it does not mean that the Tsaesci did not literally eat the Men of Akavir: In TES, the metaphorical and the literal are often one and the same, after all.

      Biting, Striking and coiling are concepts that seem to be generally associated with Reptilian/serpentine folk. The Yokudan myth of Satakal the world snake men mentions those as well, and the "et'ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the dreamer" (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/etada-eight-aedra-eat-dreamer) even explicity equals "coiled" with "reptilian". Given that, that there seems to be an overarching Reptilian metaphysical/mythological worldview, I do not think it farfetched that the original Tsaesci and the Argonians may have been related - the same way that most mer sher a metaphysical/mythological worldview and the same way most men do.

      In any case, there has to have been some human Tsaesci as well. According to the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition, Rimmen is populated by descendants of Akaviri refugees - and in the context of Tamriel, "Akaviri" means the Tsaesci Reman had allowed to settle on the continent. Yet, the people of Rimmen appear to be human - the name literally is derived from "Rim Men", the men (humans) at the Rim of Elseweyr.

      So in conclusion, I think the Tsaesci are defined by metaphysics, not biology, though the two can become one and the same in TES, and that there must have been human Tsaesci.

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    • Octo8 wrote: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/tsaesci-creation-myth-and-we-ate-it-become-it

      "We ate it and become it."

      I think we can say the Tsaesci absorbed the Men of Akavir. Maybe the Tsaesci are not even a biological race as such, but a cultural unit. It is worth mentioning how many concepts the (admittedly very confusing) Tsaesci creation myth shares with Sermon 21 of the 36 Lessons of Vivec: The coiling and biting and circles... I think the sermon might describe a "reptilian" view of the world, and maybe the Tsaesci are just people (of different biological races) defined by that teaching. This is hardly unpredecented in TES: *All* Elven peoples are defined by their metaphysical view on the world as well, after all. And it does not mean that the Tsaesci did not literally eat the Men of Akavir: In TES, the metaphorical and the literal are often one and the same, after all.

      Biting, Striking and coiling are concepts that seem to be generally associated with Reptilian/serpentine folk. The Yokudan myth of Satakal the world snake men mentions those as well, and the "et'ada, Eight Aedra, Eat the dreamer" (http://www.imperial-library.info/content/etada-eight-aedra-eat-dreamer) even explicity equals "coiled" with "reptilian". Given that, that there seems to be an overarching Reptilian metaphysical/mythological worldview, I do not think it farfetched that the original Tsaesci and the Argonians may have been related - the same way that most mer sher a metaphysical/mythological worldview and the same way most men do.

      In any case, there has to have been some human Tsaesci as well. According to the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition, Rimmen is populated by descendants of Akaviri refugees - and in the context of Tamriel, "Akaviri" means the Tsaesci Reman had allowed to settle on the continent. Yet, the people of Rimmen appear to be human - the name literally is derived from "Rim Men", the men (humans) at the Rim of Elseweyr.

      So in conclusion, I think the Tsaesci are defined by metaphysics, not biology, though the two can become one and the same in TES, and that there must have been human Tsaesci.

      I am pretty sure whenever it is akaviri humans being talked about they are never called tsaesci... I have never seen the word "tsaesci" applying to anything but vampiric snakemen.

      I think that all of the humans that have been encountered and shown to have been part of tsaesci forces have merely been part of the Tsaesci armed forces...

      I sincerely doubt they are defined by metaphysics (you dont know what this word means) and culture. Its made very clear in mysterious akavir (and we ate it and become it, which is psuedo canon at best) that the Tsaesci assimilate traits from what they consume.

      Thus explaining any tsaesci that happens to look human... I would guess that the ones that settled in tamriel eventually lost their snake traits over time.

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    • The Akaviri Invasion of Tamriel at the start of the Second Empire has always been identified with the Tsaesci, so I don't think I need to argue this point further. It is of course possible that the Tsaesci are only the snakes and had an army host of non-Tsaesci Akaviri humans - but that would contradict the statement that the Tsaesci "consumed" all the Men of Akavir. Yet, as has been discussed at length in this thread, at the time the Akaviri were in Tamriel, there seem to have been serpentine *and* humanoid Akaviri. And if all the Men of Akavir have been "consumed" by the Tsaesci, then that means all those people must have been Tsaesci.

      Another issue is interfertility. Men and Mer can all interbreed because they're all descended from the Ehlnofey; they cannot interbreed with Argonians for example. So when the people of Rimmen are called humans, I would assume that this means more than just superficial looks ("losing serpentine traits"), that they truly are human. People would notice if one couldn't interbreed with them. And such a transformation shouldn't be possible (unless, I suppose, the Tsaesci also are descended from the Ehlnofey, but that seems unlikely to me).

      Mysterious Akavir is a pretty unreliable source by an ingame sensationalist author, but of course it's the most extensive work on Akavir we have. Even so, there is no reason why "consume" couldn't have meant "absorb, assimilate". Certainly, said sensationalist author of Mysterious Akavir wouldn't be the type to pick up such differences. And there is no reason why it couldn't have mean both literally and metaphorically, as so many things in TES mythology. In any case, there is nothing explicity stating that the Tsaesci take on the form of things they eat. Mysterious Akavir mentions the Tsaesci still look a bit like the Men of Akavir - well, that could be explained by either interpretation.

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    • But "consumed" means something entirely different to the tsaesci than it does to any known species in Tamriel, because of their unique biology.

      They see the act of consumption as synonymous with assimiliation. To "eat" something is to take it into themselves and to make it part of themselves.

      when they "consumed" the dragons, they didnt kill them... they made the dragons part of their culture.

      As for the infertility issue, as I said before when they consume something they become like it. I assume eventually they could possibly even become entirely human, or at least lose so much tsaesci that they can no longer absorb traits from creatures they consume.

      " In any case, there is nothing explicity stating that the Tsaesci take on the form of things they eat."

      no... there really isnt any other interpretation of that line :| its made very clear that there is a link between eating things and looking like things.

      But also on the fertility issue are you sure there was ever a time when Tsaesci bred with the tamrielic humans? I havent heard anything about this in the lore.

      I am not talking about just superficial traits being absorbed, I am talking about

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    • But... but... but... those first three lines of you, that's *exactly* what I've been saying! What I'm saying is the same happened to the Men of Akavir, who hence became part of the Tsaesci. Which in turn means there are serpentine and human Tsaesci and yes, probably also draconic Tsaesci.

      "no... there really isnt any other interpretation of that line "

      You yourself used the other interpretation in your first three lines: Assimilation! You're contradicting yourself there.

      And really, if the people of Rimmen were not interfertile with other humans, surely this would have been noticed over literally thousands of years of history, and hence the people of Rimmen would not be called "Rim *Men*".

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    • Octo8 wrote: But... but... but... those first three lines of you, that's *exactly* what I've been saying! What I'm saying is the same happened to the Men of Akavir, who hence became part of the Tsaesci. Which in turn means there are serpentine and human Tsaesci and yes, probably also draconic Tsaesci.

      "no... there really isnt any other interpretation of that line "

      You yourself used the other interpretation in your first three lines: Assimilation! You're contradicting yourself there.

      And really, if the people of Rimmen were not interfertile with other humans, surely this would have been noticed over literally thousands of years of history, and hence the people of Rimmen would not be called "Rim *Men*".

      okay back up... what the hell is "rimmen" and what does it have to do with anything. And no I only have one single interpretation of the line... i believe that Tsaesci are assimilative in a literal sense, absorbing the traits of the creatures and people they consume (either through vampiric feeding and whatnot)

      and that is WHY they have a different meaning to the word "consume" this biological feature that they have, had an effect on their culture. When they "consumed" the men, they absorbed their culture...

      the reason the concept of "consume" is like that, is because of their biology. I only have one interpretation for the line and I an extrapolating it to their entire culture...

      The interpretation being solely biological assimilation... the idea taht they brought men into their culture is based on other evidence entirely.

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    • Did you even read my posts? Rimmen is a city in Elseweyr, which according to the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition, is settled by Akaviri refugees, who are nonetheless referred to as "men".

      And that is what I've been saying about "consume" all along: That it might well have happened *both* a literal and a metaphorical sense. Seriously, read my posts before replying. This is getting frustrating.

      Bottom line, everything points towards there having been human Tsaesci besides the serpentine Tsaesci. I'm not going to repeat my arguments all again. Especially not after you de facto changed your line to mine regarding "consume" and assimilation anyway.

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    • Thats probably because they were men... Its very clear to me that the Akaviri men in the Tsaesci nation make up the bulk of its armies. with the snake-men probably rarely going into combat.

      But I wouldnt call the human members of hte Tsaesci nation Tsaesci... call them what the games and everything else calls them "Akaviri" whenever they are talking about men from Akavir the word "tsaesci" is never used.

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    • Why do I need to repeat myself?

      As I've said above:

      " It is of course possible that the Tsaesci are only the snakes and had an army host of non-Tsaesci Akaviri humans - but that would contradict the statement that the Tsaesci "consumed" all the Men of Akavir (*all* of them). Yet, as has been discussed at length in this thread, at the time the Akaviri were in Tamriel, there seem to have been serpentine *and* humanoid Akaviri. And if all the Men of Akavir have been "consumed" by the Tsaesci, then that means all those people must have been Tsaesci."

      Besides, you yourself have explicitly said "assimilation" is a valid interpretation of "consume", so why do you even keep arguing this?

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    • because having an army of Akaviri humans in no way contradicts the "consume" line with this sort of inrepretation we are talking about here.

      Buiologicially there are two distinct races in the Tsaesci nation, the Akaviri men, and the Tsaesci serpents. And it is clear the men in the nation were the bulk of the armed forces.

      Your reasoning makes no sense. Just because they are part of the nation doesnt mean that they are "tsaesci". There are three races in the Aldmeri Domnion that doesnt make everyone "aldmer" racially.

      Also this wikis page on Rimmen is lacking critical information from the pocket guide :| you want to fix it or should I?

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    • Now you're just falling back to cheap semantics. The Tsaesci are a group, a unit... but not one defined by race, but (as I've argued) by worldview. Now you could *define* the Tsaesci as simply being the original biological Tsaesci, excluding humans and dragons, but as I've said, that seems like cheap semantics to me. I mean, in the end, word meanings is all we seem to argue about here, but with the sources all saying the Akaviri humans are "all consumed" and with the "we eat it to become it" logic, I think calling the Men of Akavir Tsaesci really does make sense to me.

      As for the Aldmeri Domain, as it so happens, all three main races in it are Aldmeri. That's why it's the Aldmeri Dominion, and not the Altmeri Dominion. Still, the Dominion makes distinction between its three races (de facto, the Altmer rule) - the question is if the Tsaesci do. If they don't make distinctions (and I think that is what is meant by assimilation) then it's more logical to say the Akaviri humans have become Tsaesci.

      I'll go do it.

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    • But the "semantics" are relevant here, because everyone assumes every time people say the word "akaviri" they actually mean "tsaesci" when I have never actually heard the word "tsaesci" applied to any of the humans from akavir.

      Its kind of important, for example the tsaesci page claims that people from the empire sometimes have distinct facial traits from akaviri groups... but it doesnt say that in the pocket guide, it says "akaviri"

      Calling the men of Akavir "tsaesci" doesnt make sense because in the lore they dont ever do that... its... its never done. And the Khajiit arent considered a race descended from aldmer (though its implied)


      My point is the humans from Akavir are just

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    • See for some reason whenever someone mentions "akaviri" in skyrim, oblivion, or any other game for some reason everyone assumes they mean the snake-men.

      And because they then see humans they assume that the snake men... dont exist... its insanity...

      Whenever the word "akaviri" is used I just assume it is referring to whatever race from akavir is relevant at the moment... but by default I usually just assume its the men of akavir.

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    • Its important to strictly define the terms otherwise people get confused. Which in my opinion this is pretty much the source of all the confusion with the akaviri races and peoples.

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    • But that's my point as well: In Tamriel, "Akaviri" and "Tsaesci" are more or less used interchangeably, due to the Tsaesci (!) invasion of Tamriel at the start of the Second Empire.

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    • But I would almost think that most Tamrielics... Tamrielans... Tamrelites... whatever... that the opposite is true, that rather than associating everything akavir with the snakes...

      That they actually associate things with the Men. Because they wouldnt have seen many snakes in the invasionary forces.

      nothing I just said made any sense :|

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    • I think I read somewhere that the Tsaseci general appearing in Oblivion looked like a human because of engine-limitations.

      This could be wrong, though.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote: I think I read somewhere that the Tsaseci general appearing in Oblivion looked like a human because of engine-limitations.

      This could be wrong, though.

      they arent called "tsaesci" in that mission though :/ they are only called "akaviri" nobody uses the word "tsaesci" at all...

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    • Well, I thought he was a Tsaseci since they were the ones who attacked Tamriel in the 2nd Era.

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    • Ralok wrote:

      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote: I think I read somewhere that the Tsaseci general appearing in Oblivion looked like a human because of engine-limitations.

      This could be wrong, though.

      they arent called "tsaesci" in that mission though :/ they are only called "akaviri" nobody uses the word "tsaesci" at all...

      Yeah, maybe, but we know two things:

      1) Everything what the Tamrielians call "Akaviri" in Tamriel ultimately derives from the Akaviri invasion of Tamriel at the beginning of the 2nd Empire.

      2) That invasion was a Tsaesci invasion.

      And yeah, that Rimmen article needed an expansion...

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      I think I read somewhere that the Tsaseci general appearing in Oblivion looked like a human because of engine-limitations.

      This could be wrong, though.

      You appear to be correct.

      In Oblivion, a character representing the ghost of a Tseasci made an appearance in Pale Pass. His physical appearance, however, did not match that of a Tsaesci at all, and his race in the CS was listed as "Imperial." It was speculated that they might not have literally "eaten" the men of Akivir, but rather consumed their culture, or else that they were not actually snake-like at all. The former proposal was supported by one developer, but Michael Kirkbride, the inventor of the Tsaesci, has repeatedly stated that the appearance of this character is due to technical limitations, and that they are literally, in his words, "Immortal. Vampire. Snakemen."[5]

      -UESP Lore/Talk: Tsaesci

      Unfortunately the referenced page...

      http://forums.bethsoft.com/?showtopic=783058#entry11372730

      no longer exists.

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    • That ghost is still never called a Tseasci in any way shape or form. I am pretty sure he is just a human that lived and worked in the nation of the snake men.

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    • Anyway, what about the other way around, the Tsaesci could have been vampire men who ate dragons and worked black magics to make themselves become snaky and serpentine, cause why not?

      Either way, with humans using black magics to become snakier, or snakes using black magic to become more human, will still end up with a pretty similar result...

      Still, whatever MK says is best swallowed with a huge pinch of salt, cause now the important one is what Beth wants to make the Tsaesci as, not how MK conceptualized them. Sure, he had the concept, but he no longer owns the idea (sadly for him)

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    • Still, dev texts are a canonical source. They can be used as long as they're not contradicted by a higher value canonical source.

      The basic issue is still that there must have been both serpentine *and* humanoid Akaviri/Tsaesci (and in this context the two terms do mean the same) *at the same time*.

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    • Yeah too me the question is not so much "are they snakemen" but its "are they snakemen now, and have they always been snakemen"

      in their default form they might not be snakemen, they could be vampiric men who fed on dragons to become like snakes, or they could be vampiric snakes that gained sapience by feedin on men.

      Octo8, Kirkbride isnt a developer :| he used to be but no longer is... nothing he wrote post-emplooyment at bethesda can be considered canon unless specifically made canon by bethesda. And stuff that he wrote while working there, taht wasnt published... can only be considered psuedo-canon and behind the scenes material (like the picture of the ruddy man)

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    • Whatever. You seem to be on an one-man anti-Kirkbride crusade that doesn't seem to be shared by anybody else. And I have no idea why you seem to be so invested in this. Generally, his texts are considered canon.

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    • Octo8 wrote: Whatever. You seem to be on an one-man anti-Kirkbride crusade that doesn't seem to be shared by anybody else. And I have no idea why you seem to be so invested in this. Generally, his texts are considered canon.

      Argumentam ad numeram, you cant argue that just because a lot of people just to believe something that it means it is correct. Kirkbrides post-bethesda work is non-canon because canon material can only be produced by someone approved to do that.

      Either his work is fan fiction, or the giving away of company secrets he stole while working there :/

      Now his texts he created WHILE WORKING FOR THEM... are without a doubt, BEHIND THE SCENES MATERIAL OR CUT CONTENT! I have nothing against this stuff being part of the conversation and being taken into consideration.

      One more thing you have to consider... is that Micheal Kirkbride did not create the Elder Scrolls... it is not his super special creativity baby franchise.

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    • Just throwing around latin terms won't get you anywhere if you don't actually understand what they mean. What is canon is a matter of definition, and definition is set by consensus, so, uh, yeah, actually numbers do matter here. You can only claim the argumentam ad numeram fallacy in case of physical facts etc., not in case of conventions. Anyway, your particular insistence is just obnoxious. If you don't want to deal with MK's texts, fine. But don't force your particular dislikes on everybody else.

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    • Octo8 wrote: Just throwing around latin terms won't get you anywhere if you don't actually understand what they mean. What is canon is a matter of definition, and definition is set by consensus, so, uh, yeah, actually numbers do matter here. You can only claim the argumentam ad numeram fallacy in case of physical facts etc., not in case of conventions. Anyway, your particular insistence is just obnoxious. If you don't want to deal with MK's texts, fine. But don't force your particular dislikes on everybody else.

      No, canon is not set by a consensus... unless bethesda decides it is, no fan no matter what their position (ex employee or not) no matter how many there are gets to say what is what in the elder scrolls universe.

      THE FACT the absolute beyond a shadow of a doubt fact is that MICHAEL KIRKBRIDE DID NOT CREATE THE ELDER SCROLLS UNIVERSE, and DOES NOT WORK AT BETHESDA.

      What right in any sense does he have to say what is canon? the problem with kirkbrides bullshit is that people take its word over the actual canon like drooling idiots.

      Its either leaks, or fan fiction, you cant have it any other way unless bethesda says its not.

      and sorry, i used the wrong name for the logical fallacy.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

      by the way, your only idiot arguement in favor of kirkbride being canon is "nu-uh he totally is canonshut up because I said so, and lots of people say so"

      you sound like a damned child!

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    • Here we go again...

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    • You know what is funny here... IS I BROUGHT UP KIRKBRIDE IN THIS CONVERSATION EARLIER > : [

      I treated his material with respect, and showed how it could be used to decipher his intentions with certain phrases in mysterious akavir. I treated it as cut content... which is what kirkbrides material should be treated as if he created it during his time with bethesda, or even some material after.

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    • Okay, but can't we just take MKs stuff for once in a conversation without arguing about it's canonicity?

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote: Okay, but can't we just take MKs stuff for once in a conversation without arguing about it's canonicity?

      There is no point in bringing it up if its not canon, its just fan fiction and if we are going to take it seriously then we have to take every idiot on the internets fan fiction seriously.

      if Kirkbride is canon, so is that racist mod that makes redguards white.

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    • Now who sounds angry and incoherent like a child? I mean, geez, what about the guy gets you so riled up?

      "Canon" is not a physical fact that you can observe. It's a standard that is set, by people. You might think only Bethesda material is canon, but that is just your opinion. It's not a physical fact or anything. Kirkbride is the author of a great part of the TES world, in particular concerning mythology, and hence is word has weight. That he is not the proprietor of the intellectual copyright is meaningless; that's merely a legal and economical question - a question that concerns RL, not the TES world. What is important is what is accepted and recognized as canon. And commonly, Kirkbride's material is accepted as canon. Even the official devs still reference it from time to time. Personally, I'd say it's low-level canon, i.e. canon unless explicitly refuted by something in the games. In any case, I'd much rather stick with what the guys at TIL and, as said, even the official devs, use as canon sources, then with what an petulant child with a grudge wants to force as canon definition on others.

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    • Octo8 wrote: Now who sounds angry and incoherent like a child? I mean, geez, what about the guy gets you so riled up?

      "Canon" is not a physical fact that you can observe. It's a standard that is set, by people. You might think only Bethesda material is canon, but that is just your opinion. It's not a physical fact or anything. Kirkbride is the author of a great part of the TES world, in particular concerning mythology, and hence is word has weight. That he is not the proprietor of the intellectual copyright is meaningless; that's merely a legal and economical question - a question that concerns RL, not the TES world. What is important is what is accepted and recognized as canon. And commonly, Kirkbride's material is accepted as canon. Even the official devs still reference it from time to time. Personally, I'd say it's low-level canon, i.e. canon unless explicitly refuted by something in the games. In any case, I'd much rather stick with what the guys at TIL and, as said, even the official devs, use as canon sources, then with what an petulant child with a grudge wants to force as canon definition on others.

      yes only bethesda material is canon, you are high if you think that anyone else can make Elder Scrolls stuff canon. They own the franchise.

      Its not a goddamned opinion, this is a legal fucking fact. You cannot use someone else's intellectual property without their permission.

      The elder scrolls isnt some ancient mythology or public domain fairytal. The elder scrolls is a franchise owned by bethesda.

      Are you a retard? do you need mental help? the hell is wrong with you of course its a legal matter, HE HAS NO LEGAL RIGHT TO THE CANON.

      "That he is not the proprietor of the intellectual copyright is meaningless;"

      it is completely meaningful, this would be like a writer from Super Mario RPG trolling forums and passing off his fan fiction about super mario galaxy as part of the universe.

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    • "What is important is what is accepted and recognized as canon. And commonly, Kirkbride's material is accepted as canon.

      This isnt even like slightly important, no matter what you want you cannot say what is and what isnt canon. That is solely up to the developers adn teh creators of a franchise.

      Canon is not some amorphous thing, what I am getting from this is that everyone who considers kirkbrides work canon is sad children who don't want their fan fiction to be hurt by inconvenient things such as facts.

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    • You sure get strangely angry about what a community of strangers might consider "true" in a makebelief world of a pixel game. That seems... disproportionate. Maybe you want to take a walk outside, smoke a cig, or something?

      This isn't a question of intellectual property. If Bethesda thought MK was infringing on their intellectual property, they'd sue or threaten to. Now, of course TES is a franchise, but so what? Intellectual property is still just an *RL* legal matter, nothing more. It defines how courts would settle stuff if it ever came to that, nothing more. It doesn't define what we as a community have to accept as cannon. That is an issue completely separate from the legal issue. What is cannon is defined by what fans and developers accept as cannon. And in *both* cases, including the devs themselves, that includes MK's material.

      And canon is a very damn amorphous concept. Just look at the Star Wars fandom and its various levels of what is considered canon, for example. It's the same here.

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    • Ralok, you still raging about this? MK has Bethesda's permission to write, the guy wrote loads and more loads of lore for them, and, in case you haven't noticed, even though he was no longer under Bethesda's employment during Skyrim's development, Heimskr's sermons clearly reference Kirkbride's most relevant work, CHIM. Stop assuming things work the way you think they do. Kirkbride has written a lot of material since his leaving the company; don't you think Bethesda would realease a public disclaimer stating that he's "another f#cking fan-fiction writer" if that was the case?

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    • Octo8 wrote: You sure get strangely angry about what a community of strangers might consider "true" in a makebelief world of a pixel game. That seems... disproportionate. Maybe you want to take a walk outside, smoke a cig, or something?

      This isn't a question of intellectual property. If Bethesda thought MK was infringing on their intellectual property, they'd sue or threaten to. Now, of course TES is a franchise, but so what? Intellectual property is still just an *RL* legal matter, nothing more. It defines how courts would settle stuff if it ever came to that, nothing more. It doesn't define what we as a community have to accept as cannon. That is an issue completely separate from the legal issue. What is cannon is defined by what fans and developers accept as cannon. And in *both* cases, including the devs themselves, that includes MK's material.

      You might not know this, but most companies consider it in ill taste to sue FAN FICTION WRITERS for copyright infringement.

      And fans have absolutely no bearing on this you idiot, fans are completely meaningless to what is canon and always will be. I am a fan, but I dont operate under the goddamned illusion that if I say something is canon it magically becomes canon.

      I have tons of head-canon, and theories, and other stuff. But I am not a fucking sad child about it trying to rationalize my idiot ideas as being real to the elder scrolls universe through an ex developer.

      and I will say it again... KIRKBRIDE... IS NOT.... A DEVELOPER AT BETHESDA!!!

      GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL!

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    • Look, if you don't want to read MK's texts, then don't. But then don't expect to be taken serious at discussions. You just want to eat your cake and have it, too. Too stupid to read and understand the required material (which also explains the stupid nature of your posts as assemblies of simpleton one-liners, and your inabilte further up in the discussion to properly read my posts), and yet still wanting to take part in discussions, and hence you rage about the canonicity of MK's material. Even though the devs themselves clearly still use that material. If the devs use that material, how the hell is it not canon? You can argue legalese all you want, but this only matters to courts and not here! Get it in your own damn thick skull that these are two separate issues!

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    • Sky Above,Voice Within wrote: Ralok, you still raging about this? MK has Bethesda's permission to write, the guy wrote loads and more loads of lore for them, and, in case you haven't noticed, even though he was no longer under Bethesda's employment during Skyrim's development, Heimskr's sermons clearly reference Kirkbride's most relevant work, CHIM. Stop assuming things work the way you think they do. Kirkbride has written a lot of material since his leaving the company; don't you think Bethesda would realease a public disclaimer stating that he's "another f#cking fan-fiction writer" if that was the case?

      Prove it, prove to me that he has bethesdas permission to write and create canon. Show me where this is said by someone? prove what you are saying.

      "Heimskr's sermons clearly reference Kirkbride's most relevant work, CHIM. "

      and I suppose that when X-3 referenced "im the juggernaut bitch" that every piece of fan fiction the creator of that video ever made magically became canon through the power of fairy dust and unicorn tears.

      Developers reference fans, and fan fiction... all the damn time. there is even a precedence for it multiple times in the elder scrolls 3 morrowind.

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    • Sky Above,Voice Within wrote: Ralok, you still raging about this? MK has Bethesda's permission to write, the guy wrote loads and more loads of lore for them, and, in case you haven't noticed, even though he was no longer under Bethesda's employment during Skyrim's development, Heimskr's sermons clearly reference Kirkbride's most relevant work, CHIM. Stop assuming things work the way you think they do. Kirkbride has written a lot of material since his leaving the company; don't you think Bethesda would realease a public disclaimer stating that he's "another f#cking fan-fiction writer" if that was the case?

      And please refrain from harassing other users. No one here has ever insulted you.

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    • Ralok wrote:

      GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL!

      Do not make personal attacks against other users, even if you feel you are undeniably correct.

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    • Octo8 wrote: Look, if you don't want to read MK's texts, then don't. But then don't expect to be taken serious at discussions. You just want to eat your cake and have it, too. Too stupid to read and understand the required material (which also explains the stupid nature of your posts as assemblies of simpleton one-liners, and your inabilte further up in the discussion to properly read my posts), and yet still wanting to take part in discussions, and hence you rage about the canonicity of MK's material. Even though the devs themselves clearly still use that material. If the devs use that material, how the hell is it not canon? You can argue legalese all you want, but this only matters to courts and not here! Get it in your own damn thick skull that these are two separate issues!

      I do read, I just wont ever consider them canon because you know... im not an idiot.

      and o they arent two separate issues, only bethesda has the right to make elder scrolls. and Kirkbride is not the holy messiah of bethesda studios.

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    • UselessArgonianMage wrote:

      Ralok wrote:

      GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK SKULL!

      Do not make personal attacks against other users, even if you feel you are undeniably correct.

      Sorry, but this situation is getting on my nerves. Someone references a fan fiction writer so they think that every single thing the writer every created in his fanonical library is canon...

      explain how this works too me?

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    • Arguing with someone over something is one thing, but insulting them because you think you're right?

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    • Just get back on-topic, if you choose not to read MK's works, ignore them.

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    • Ralok wrote:

      Octo8 wrote: Look, if you don't want to read MK's texts, then don't. But then don't expect to be taken serious at discussions. You just want to eat your cake and have it, too. Too stupid to read and understand the required material (which also explains the stupid nature of your posts as assemblies of simpleton one-liners, and your inabilte further up in the discussion to properly read my posts), and yet still wanting to take part in discussions, and hence you rage about the canonicity of MK's material. Even though the devs themselves clearly still use that material. If the devs use that material, how the hell is it not canon? You can argue legalese all you want, but this only matters to courts and not here! Get it in your own damn thick skull that these are two separate issues!

      I do read, I just wont ever consider them canon because you know... im not an idiot.

      and o they arent two separate issues, only bethesda has the right to make elder scrolls. and Kirkbride is not the holy messiah of bethesda studios.

      You do quite behave like an idiot here, though.

      Only Bethesda has the copyright etc. They do not have the right to determine what the fans and the community accept as canon. You just don't seem to get that distinction. Are you so much of a corporate loyalist? That would make you something worse than an idiot: A useful idiot.

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    • Octo8 wrote:

      Ralok wrote:

      Octo8 wrote: Look, if you don't want to read MK's texts, then don't. But then don't expect to be taken serious at discussions. You just want to eat your cake and have it, too. Too stupid to read and understand the required material (which also explains the stupid nature of your posts as assemblies of simpleton one-liners, and your inabilte further up in the discussion to properly read my posts), and yet still wanting to take part in discussions, and hence you rage about the canonicity of MK's material. Even though the devs themselves clearly still use that material. If the devs use that material, how the hell is it not canon? You can argue legalese all you want, but this only matters to courts and not here! Get it in your own damn thick skull that these are two separate issues!

      I do read, I just wont ever consider them canon because you know... im not an idiot.

      and o they arent two separate issues, only bethesda has the right to make elder scrolls. and Kirkbride is not the holy messiah of bethesda studios.

      You do quite behave like an idiot here, though.

      Only Bethesda has the copyright etc. They do not have the right to determine what the fans and the community accept as canon. You just don't seem to get that distinction. Are you so much of a corporate loyalist? That would make you something worse than an idiot: A useful idiot.

      You are right, tehy cant determine what the fans and community considers canon. But what the fans and communicty accepts as canon...

      this might shock you...

      is...

      completely... woooooooooooooorthleeeeeeeeessssssss

      it means... noooooooooooooottttthing...

      Everything that I think about the elder scrolls universe, everything that you think, and everything that every single one of us thinks...

      is... completely... irrelevent to the canon.

      Because we do not have that right... we do not have the power, only the creators of something have the power to say what is and what isnt with something. Kirkbride forsook that right when he left the company.

      And just because he clearly regrets it... does not mean we can all pretend to salvage his feelings, or pretend to salvage our own feelings because we want our fan fiction and pet theories to be loved.

      No matter what any fan ever thinks, bethesda has the right to do what they want with the Elder Scrolls. And they have, multiple times... flown in the face of all of their fans.

      Want to know why? its because sadly most fans are idiots in one way or another. I dont know most of the multiplication table... I can barely write a sentence, I am likely to die trying to operate a toilet.

      Do you want them to consider every idiot thought I have on my blog here canon? I sure as hell wouldnt want them too...

      and everyone in the world, is just as stupid in their own special ways. That is why they only hire and employ certain people to look over stuff, and write stuff, as to avoid certain idiocy crawling into the work.

      and even then... stupidity crawls into the writing of elder scrolls from time to time... in every game in the series.

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    • I don't know about you, but if MK would really regret leaving Bethesda, he wouldn't have left them a second time. He was hired again when they made the Knights of the Nine DLC for Oblivion, and then left again.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote: I don't know about you, but if MK would really regret leaving Bethesda, he wouldn't have left them a second time. He was hired again when they made the Knights of the Nine DLC for Oblivion, and then left again.

      Strange... kinda sounds like there was something he didnt agree with and just up and quit to me. lends some credence to my theory that he is bitter.

      so many retcons in everything he writes. Its like he wants to fix all of hte problems of the elder scrolls universe, but he only succeeds imho in making things more confusing...

      which is kinda sad, because he is not lacking enthusiasm in his writing, at least I dont feel he is.

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    • Actually, yes, we definitely do have the right to decide on our own what we consider canon for any given fandom. It would be hilarious to imagine how we would NOT have that right. Bethesda sending out lawyers as soon as somebody voices an opinion on canon? Hahaha... no. That isn't how it works, obviously and fortunately. So we definitely do have the right and the power to say "I consider that canon" and "I don't consider that canon". And if in a given fandom, there is a community consensus, that is a sufficient majority of people considering something canon, then that IS canon. MK's works are up on TIL, and even on this very wiki those works there are considered valid out-site references for articles.

      I dunno, maybe uncertainties scare you, maybe you like your world black and white, but this is how the world works in a lot of things. Some definitions will always be arbitrary, some lines will always be blurry, and yes, this is the case with the concept of canonicity. It is not a scientifically observable fact; it is a matter of definition.

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    • Why should he be bitter? He's still writing tons of lore and he can be proud that he created one of the deepest and most complex fantasy universes in gaming history.

      Retcons? Bethesda asked him to write the story for KotN, he did it. With anything he wanted in it.

      Confusing =/= bad. I was totally confused when I first learned about CHIM, but then I read more and more obscure texts and now I totally understand it. You need time to learn things.

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    • ...which seems to be exactly why he is so emotionally invested that MK's works should be considered non-canon...

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    • Octo8 wrote: Actually, yes, we definitely do have the right to decide on our own what we consider canon for any given fandom. It would be hilarious to imagine how we would NOT have that right. Bethesda sending out lawyers as soon as somebody voices an opinion on canon? Hahaha... no. That isn't how it works, obviously and fortunately. So we definitely do have the right and the power to say "I consider that canon" and "I don't consider that canon". And if in a given fandom, there is a community consensus, that is a sufficient majority of people considering something canon, then that IS canon. MK's works are up on TIL, and even on this very wiki those works there are considered valid out-site references for articles.

      I dunno, maybe uncertainties scare you, maybe you like your world black and white, but this is how the world works in a lot of things. Some definitions will always be arbitrary, some lines will always be blurry, and yes, this is the case with the concept of canonicity. It is not a scientifically observable fact; it is a matter of definition.

      Now you are just straight up lying. Every single thing you have written in this paragraph is a lie.

      what the hell did you write that is so special too you that you have to protect it? you are not a special snowflake, get over yourself.

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    • He's NOT lying.

      Ran out of excuses, eh?

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    • That's your argument? "You're lying"? Goddamn. Now you're hitting Tea Party niveau...

      Though, for your information, I don't have a single TES fanfic or lore 'scholarly' article to my name. I just like my fictional worlds to be complex and well thought out and am not a corporate lackey, that's all.

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    • I don't know why is it so hard for you to understand Kirkbride is legit. Bethesda asked him to write the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, when he was ot of the company.

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    • Stop with the flame-war, get back on-topic, if you can't believe MK's works are canon, ignore the lore which it involves.

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    • Octo8 wrote: ...which seems to be exactly why he is so emotionally invested that MK's works should be considered non-canon...

      see this wiki... a wiki is an enyclopedia... for real knowedlge. Not every single random thought of every fan of the franchise, one fan (Michael Kirkbride) gets a little more attention, and everyone falls over worshipping him and including every thing he wrote on pages as canon.

      Its insulting and its misinformation.

      and I woudl rther die, than misinform someone. If its one thing that I take abso-fucking-lutely seriously is the dissemination of accurate information.

      You know why? so people can make up their own minds about things, so people can take the information and do with it what they want and need.

      See the problem that you arent getting, is that by putting one persons fanon above others. One persons idiot head canon above others, we are taking away the right to their own.

      Encyclopedias arent a place for feelings, or theories, or bullcrap... they are a place for information. First and foremost. Some people like to have accurate fan fiction, some people want to know all the FACTS...

      Its irresponsible and idiotic to include anything that Kirkbride created outside of Bethesdas moderation. By the way, your definition of "canon" is wrong

      http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/canon?s=t

      This is the one that is most important.

      1. an ecclesiastical rule or law enacted by a council or other competent authority and, in the Roman Catholic Church, approved by the pope.

      Bethesda is the competent authority here, the fans are not. Now they might take some advisement from the fans, but they have the final word.

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    • Sky Above,Voice Within wrote: I don't know why is it so hard for you to understand Kirkbride is legit. Bethesda asked him to write the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, when he was ot of the company.

      Because its not canon if he wrote it without the companies permission... the hell is the matter with all of you.

      Its very simple how this works... if he wrote it by the companies request, or if he wrote it while working at the company... then... CANON.

      If he wrote it on his own, without it being approved by bethesda... then... NOT

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote: He's NOT lying.

      Ran out of excuses, eh?

      he is lying because he has completely re-defined what canon is without any regard for the truth.

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    • Ralok wrote:

      Sky Above,Voice Within wrote: I don't know why is it so hard for you to understand Kirkbride is legit. Bethesda asked him to write the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, when he was ot of the company.

      Because its not canon if he wrote it without the companies permission... the hell is the matter with all of you.

      Its very simple how this works... if he wrote it by the companies request, or if he wrote it while working at the company... then... CANON.

      If he wrote it on his own, without it being approved by bethesda... then... NOT


      ....And what if Bethesda suddenly uses something he wrote without asking him? Like, for example, Heimskrs speech about Talos...?

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    • Yes, because we're talking about ecclestial laws here! Certainly! Makes perfect sense! Has Sheogorath blessed you or what's the matter? God damn...

      But you certainly do seem to have an ecclestial mindset: Kirkbridge should not be considered canon, because that would be misinforming people, because his works aren't canon.... perfect circular logic. Your entire post is trying to argue that MK's work is non-canonical by pre-assuming his work is non-canonical. THAT is a fallacy in fact: Assuming the antecedent. All your arguiments only work if you assume already BEFORE that MK's works are not canon; hence they are not valid arguments at all.

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    • UselessArgonianMage wrote: Stop with the flame-war, get back on-topic, if you can't believe MK's works are canon, ignore the lore which it involves.

      I agree. MK's works relate to very few lore subjects. I'm sorry for furthering the war, i'll stop now.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:

      Ralok wrote:

      Sky Above,Voice Within wrote: I don't know why is it so hard for you to understand Kirkbride is legit. Bethesda asked him to write the Mythic Dawn Commentaries, when he was ot of the company.

      Because its not canon if he wrote it without the companies permission... the hell is the matter with all of you.

      Its very simple how this works... if he wrote it by the companies request, or if he wrote it while working at the company... then... CANON.

      If he wrote it on his own, without it being approved by bethesda... then... NOT


      And what is if Bethesda suddenly uses something he wrote without asking him? Like, for example, Heimskrs speech about Talos...?

      They didnt use it, they used a part of it.

      As I have said before, that is just a reference to a fan-work. I can find about... 5000 examples of creators of something including references to fan fiction, or fandom, in pretty much everything.

      Yeah, that part is canon... they canonized it, do you have a point? But they only included a part of it, maybe they didnt include the rest of it because they didn't want those parts to be canon?

      And that sure as heck doesnt mean other stuff he has written that is completely unrelated to that is canon. I addressed this point earlier, multiple times in multiple threads.

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    • Octo8 wrote: Yes, because we're talking about ecclestial laws here! Certainly! Makes perfect sense! Has Sheogorath blessed you or what's the matter? God damn...

      But you certainly do seem to have an ecclestial mindset: Kirkbridge should not be considered canon, because that would be misinforming people, because his works aren't canon.... perfect circular logic. Your entire post is trying to argue that MK's work is non-canonical by pre-assuming his work is non-canonical. THAT is a fallacy in fact: Assuming the antecedent. All your arguiments only work if you assume already BEFORE that MK's works are not canon; hence they are not valid arguments at all.

      what the hell are you talking about.

      for the purpose of the arguement... yes we are, but the gods in question are not ones of fiction. But the gods are the creators and developers of the elder scrolls universe.

      have you ever heard the phrase "word of god" when pertaining to fiction? You are treating kirkbride as if he is the metaphorical god, when he is in fact... not.

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    • Octo8 wrote: Yes, because we're talking about ecclestial laws here! Certainly! Makes perfect sense! Has Sheogorath blessed you or what's the matter? God damn...

      But you certainly do seem to have an ecclestial mindset: Kirkbridge should not be considered canon, because that would be misinforming people, because his works aren't canon.... perfect circular logic. Your entire post is trying to argue that MK's work is non-canonical by pre-assuming his work is non-canonical. THAT is a fallacy in fact: Assuming the antecedent. All your arguiments only work if you assume already BEFORE that MK's works are not canon; hence they are not valid arguments at all.

      Also I didnt use taht arguement at all by the way.

      my arguement is simple, Kirkbride does not work for bethesda, thus none of his unsanctioned works should be considered canon, adn thus informing people of his non-canonical work owuld be wrong. That is the simple logic here.

      there is absolutely nothing here resembling circular logic, I started from a fact... Kirkbride does not work at bethesda.

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    • "yes we are" - yes we are *what*? Also what part exactly of my post was unclear to you? I can't tell. If you want to reference multiple points in my post, maybe you want to split up the quote and quote line for line. As it is, I can't even decypher what you mean!

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    • Octo8 wrote: "yes we are" - yes we are *what*? If you want to reference multiple points in my post, maybe you want to split up the quote and quote line for line. As it is, I can't even decypher what you mean!

      "Yes, because we're talking about ecclestial laws here!"

      and I said, yes we are. But only in a metaphorical sense.

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    • It is true that etymologically, "cannon" as what is true for a fictional universe is derived from "cannon" in ecclestial law. That doesn't mean the same rules apply, it only means, well, etymological derivation. You only posted the ecclestial definition of "cannon", not the derived definition. I mean, high ranking Presidential advisors in the USA are sometimes called Czar, an etymological derivation from the former Russian Emperors; that doesn't mean they consider themselves to have divine right like the original Czars did.

      ---

      " Kirkbride does not work for bethesda, thus none of his unsanctioned works should be considered canon"

      And that step is where you logic chain breaks down. This "thus" is wrong.

      Also - the edit function! Use it! Instead of responding two times to the same post of mine! That's just silly!

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    • dude, bethesda uses MK's work to build the TES world, he may not work for them but his writings have more weight than the ramblings of other people. think about like if michael kirkbridge was an historian, he may be wrong (a.k.a what he writes may not be canon or become canon) but as far as we know he has the best answer to date. maybe the next TES will dismiss MK's work, maybe will set it as canon (like the heimskr thing).



      btw, you have your right to your opinion and all but we are disrupting a this topic and we should continue this discussion somewhere else.

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    • MeadDrinker wrote: dude, bethesda uses MK's work to build the TES world, he many not work for them but his writings have more weight than the ramblings of other people. think about like if michael kirkbridge was an historian, he may be wrong (a.k.a what he writes may not be or become canon) but as far as we know he has the best answer to date. maybe the next TES will dismiss MK's work, maybe it will set it as canon (like the heimskr thing).



      btw, you have your right to your opinion and all but we are disrupting a this topic and we should continue this discussion somewhere else.

      But they dont just use Kirkbrides work to build the elder scrolls world, they use the work of many other writers and creators as well as many conceptual artists. Kirkbride is not the sole creative mind behind the elder scrolls universe.

      I am not talking about stuff he wrote when he worked for them, of course they use stuff he wrote when he worked for them.

      Also i wonder... do you even care about writing as a profession Octo8? Do you think just anybody can write?

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    • Yeah. And those other writers have a special status as well. They're not just random "fanfic" authors as you would have them painted.

      And clearly, everybody can "write". But Sturgeon's Law ("90% of everything is crap") is of course always in effect.

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    • There are actually obscure texts from other Bethesda Devs, for example from Kurt Kuhlmann.

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    • Yeah, that's part of what I meant, but I didn't want to make everything TIL-centric :p

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    • Ok, why don't we all stop arguing on MK's work and try to not use it. Because, in the case when the authenticity of a premise is called into question, it is better to drop it and proceed, as trying to include it can lead to further, non productive arguments, flame wars and possibly a vitroil throwing.

      P.S. I do agree with Ralok on the point that MK cannot be taken seriously after he left beth, unless beth itself takes his work, also, Mead Drinker did raise a good point suggesting why MK may or may not be right. Its pretty safe to assume that MK is 50% right and 50% wrong.

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    • @Ralok

      MK is a genius, in my opinion. Ok, no Albert Einstein- like genius, but he is the fantasy writer of this century.

      You may not like his lore, but you should stop insulting him. Have some respect for the guy who transformed TES from a generic fantasy game series to a deep, complex and unique world.

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    • 218.186.253.148 wrote:
      Ok, why don't we all stop arguing on MK's work and try to not use it. Because, in the case when the authenticity of a premise is called into question, it is better to drop it and proceed, as trying to include it can lead to further, non productive arguments, flame wars and possibly a vitroil throwing.

      P.S. I do agree with Ralok on the point that MK cannot be taken seriously after he left beth, unless beth itself takes his work, also, Mead Drinker did raise a good point suggesting why MK may or may not be right. Its pretty safe to assume that MK is 50% right and 50% wrong.


      "Oh hey guy, why not just drop this silly disussion, and instead do what is my take on the matter?"

      Yeah... no. The solution goes the other way round: If Ralok or you don't like MK's works, stay out of discussions involving them.

      @AES:

      FWIW, from his forum posts MK seems a bit... unsympathetic. A bit too try-hard, and maybe also a bit too arrogant. Also he might *behave* like a fanfic writer at times, especially when it concerns Vivec. But of course, that changes nothing about the arguments why his works are in fact canonic.

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    • Octo8 wrote:
      218.186.253.148 wrote:
      Ok, why don't we all stop arguing on MK's work and try to not use it. Because, in the case when the authenticity of a premise is called into question, it is better to drop it and proceed, as trying to include it can lead to further, non productive arguments, flame wars and possibly a vitroil throwing.

      P.S. I do agree with Ralok on the point that MK cannot be taken seriously after he left beth, unless beth itself takes his work, also, Mead Drinker did raise a good point suggesting why MK may or may not be right. Its pretty safe to assume that MK is 50% right and 50% wrong.


      "Oh hey guy, why not just drop this silly disussion, and instead do what is my take on the matter?"

      Yeah... no. The solution goes the other way round: If Ralok or you don't like MK's works, stay out of discussions involving them.

      @AES:

      FWIW, from his forum posts MK seems a bit... unsympathetic. A bit too try-hard, and maybe also a bit too arrogant. Also he might *behave* like a fanfic writer at times, especially when it concerns Vivec. But of course, that changes nothing about the arguments why his works are in fact canonic.


      Yeah, he seems to be a bit too... 'defending', sometimes. But I'm sure he knows that a lot of people misunderstand his work the whole time and say stuff like "his work isn't canon/is bad/etc". He also probably explained the same things about Vivec thousands of times to users who didn't understand him, so...

      Although he really is a bit unsympathetic, at times.

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    • What i meant is that for the sake of inclusiveness and so that everyone can post and discuss, can we stop debating on highly contentious and self opinionated points that lead to huge flame wars? Sure, you all can take MK as totally canon (i personally only take the MK stuff that is irrefutable, that is well substantiated by facts that are in game and well referenced), but not everyone who plays TES does. I think Mead drinker's comparison of MK as a historian interpreting TES lore is a good analogy of why he can be wrong, because people are not infallible and he can only work on his interpretations.

      Trying to tell people who don't like MK's works to stay out of a discussion is like trying to force everybody who posts in the lore discussion board to take his words as gospel truth, which is not only impossible, but offensive and very childish. Its also like telling people that any archeologist, historian and anthropologist is 100% right just because they studied more than everyone about a certain civilization/time period/dynasty. I had my arguments crumble before because the source was dubious and nobody likes their source to discredited, as this breaks the entire argument they have, but we have to keep this like so called secular society, based on only objective fact and not assumptions or sources that are frequently called into question.

      Are all of you so adverse to the opinions that contradict yours? Are all of you (Ralok included) so close minded that no discussion can progress civilly? Because, really, everyone, your rather incessant bickering over MK's credibility brings no one anywhere and serves only to rift everyone's opinion. MK is not infallible, he is human, his interpretive works after leaving beth will inevitably contain biases, falsehoods and contradictions, just like any good historian's. MK is TES's historian, but he is looking at it from the 10th era, so he can do nothing but interpret, some which will be undeniably correct and some which will be blatantly wrong.

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    • But what you propose is not a compromise solution. Basically it's forcing the standard of the "MK is not canon" faction on the entire discussion, on everybody else. You sell it as some sort of compromise solution, even though it's actually just an enforcement of the position you take! You continue the very bickering you decry! I'd say *that* is childish. At the very least it's very much dishonest. Ralok could still have said "Well, I don't think that text is canon, hence in my opinion..." - but no, what he did was whining loudly and trying to force his position on everybody.

      Plus, you have to consider that there is already a sort of consensus. MK's texts are legitimate, valid references that can be used on this wiki. Several articles do. So as far as this community goes, MK is canon. I mean, nobody says you have to accept that and think it good. But you should respect the fact. If you talk about peace in the community, then this is best achieved by following what is already community consensus.

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    • I never said he wasn't canon, read the last part, he is but a historian. I tried to write it as clearly as possible but still seems like my opinion is open to interpretation...

      Just because you don't use it doesn't mean its not canon or outright wrong, but its simply a conciliatory gesture to those who don't buy it. Lets say you are the skaal shaman. Just because you have the knowledge that the all maker is real doesn't mean you go around screaming he is real, or that your skaal religion is correct.

      I am saying if someone says MK is wrong it is not right to outright discredit them, cause MK could indeed be wrong. Plus, i never said you can't use 'MK references, just don't use those that are too contentious, controversial or lore distorting, especially those that many do not believe in, because it will end up as an argument of the premise rather than conclusion.

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    • Okay, so I suppose we might in the end say similar things. The compromise would then be that yes, you can bring up MK references, even as argument in a discussion, but you have to accept that some will find them to be non-canonical. By the same token, the other side can say they don't consider those texts canonical, but will have to accept that they cannot shut down the debate with that argument. But I disagree on that there are any specific MK texts that should be held back. For one, I can't see any that are *specificalyl* controversial and second, well, you can only call then "lore distorting" if you preassume they aren't themselves canon ;)

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    • It could be that they have not yet appeared ingame properly as the 'snake-men' they've always been called because -

      a) in many instances they'd be virtually indistinguishable from Argonians. I'm fairly sure it'd be impossible to tell the difference on Alduins Wall for example.. (Also i believe Esbern said the wall was made by the 'Akaviri,' not the Tsaesci specifically.)

      b) their appearances in Oblivion and Skyrim so far have been the 'Akaviri,' not the Tsaesci. 'Akaviri' typically refers to the race of men that resides/resided in Akavir, not necessarily the Tsaesci themselves. As such the Tsaesci may not have made an actual appearance yet.

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    • Both.

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    • So it has been mentioned that the they are the Argonians. This makes a lot of sense, as both the argonians and Khajiit are known to have been in Tamriel long before mer and men. The Ka-Po-tun as described sound exactly like Khajiit, and the reptilian but humanoid descriptions of the Tsaesci resemble Argonians.

      I think the best near proof! of this is in 2920 however. Reman is speaking with the potenate about his plans to subdue the uprising in Black Marsh. He makes a remark to the effect that the Argonians are brutish sub-person beasts, but immediately apologizes to the potenate and assures him that he does not consider the civilized from Akavir amongst that number. To me, seems pretty clear that the Tsaesci are Argonians. It also says that the Potenates son was humanoid, scaled, and had a tale, like an Argonian, but fought in the gear and manner of the Akaviri warriors.

      It is said that the Tsaesci "consumed" the men of Akavir. If they are humanoid like Argonians, and it is said that they interbred with the noble families or Cyrodiil, it may mean that the men of Akavir became assimilated into the Tscaesci through interbreeding and marriage.

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    • ^ yeah i always thought they seemed to be described as Serpent/snake beast-folk, one of the descriptiosn said they had beautiful golden scales, so its possible that Alduins Wall's description is correct but we cannot see their faces in good detail to see the Snake-like features on them

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    • As far as i'm concerned, we have powerful entities nowadays in the elder scrolls, so if the tasaesci come back, not only will we know what they look like,  after seeing the dragonborn decide that they must die, with is armor and vampire lord form and his mentor parthunnax, snow hunter wing, and that dragon from the soul carin coming at them, ball to the wall, breaths blazing, hands a storming, they will probably think "I have no legs, and I must sprinit" because, I kill dragons, one of the most powerful entities of all time. unless they kill the dragonborn instantly in the process (unlikely and even if it did he wouldn't be truly dead), devouring him won't harm him (maybe his swag) he can just either 1 set them on fire from the inside, 2 slash away in their stomach (snakes eat theri prey by swallowing them and digesting them, but it takes a long time to take effect, which is enough time to cut their way out like in dugeons and dragons pink worms.) or shout Yol-fo-strum and rip them apart! case closed on their power level P.S I doubt they can act like the thing and can go Alex Mercer and assimilate people and take theri form. maybye some other way, but I doubt they can take their form. also, tsaesci are snake men, argonians are lizard men. also, I don't know if online is full out yet, but what I do know is that most of the time, peopole usually awnser questions and rumors, so perhaps I will see what the Tsaesci look like and what their morality is. Personally, I don't care what they look like, I just wanna see what the snakes in general look like, but in truth they will probably look better than that "serpent", from dark souls. Made me think a lot of things looked good now. In other words, I don't care about the Tsaesci and what they look like, as long as ther morality is good and they don't get in my way.

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    • Riiiiight, a human knight vs a tsaesci warrior. A warrior curb stomping a snake. Like taking candy from a baby. you might as well have a lvl 1 warrior with dadric equipment try to kill a lvl 99 mage. I fought lots of stuff in gaming, and almost nothing gets my attention, as a matter of fact, give me all the warrior skills, perks, maxinumn heavy armor, all the spells, all the shouts ( no cooldown ) a boat load of mana (999?) the beast transformations, the vampire transformations, and throw everything hat my nordic spellsword warrior, from alien stuff like the villans from aliens vs preador, to creepy, eldritch stuff, like......everything, from H.P. Lovecraft, (if it has a red marker on my minimap, and can take damage, I can kill it), to diablo, to kingdoms of amalur reckoning, to any thing with creepy necromancers in it. I already killed aprently the nordic god of destruction, I'll take on the world in skyrim. a tsaesci would not even harm a companion, let alone a vampire lord. I'm already working on a spellsword that will become ultra powerful at the end! as a matter of fact, go get lightning! not only is she an angel of death, but she also killed ............, a god, and is a one woman army, and dosen't mess around, therefore, maybe she might basicaly be a physical godess as well.

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    • 72.77.73.35 wrote:
      Riiiiight, a human knight vs a tsaesci warrior. A warrior curb stomping a snake. Like taking candy from a baby. you might as well have a lvl 1 warrior with dadric equipment try to kill a lvl 99 mage. I fought lots of stuff in gaming, and almost nothing gets my attention, as a matter of fact, give me all the warrior skills, perks, maxinumn heavy armor, all the spells, all the shouts ( no cooldown ) a boat load of mana (999?) the beast transformations, the vampire transformations, and throw everything hat my nordic spellsword warrior, from alien stuff like the villans from aliens vs preador, to creepy, eldritch stuff, like......everything, from H.P. Lovecraft, (if it has a red marker on my minimap, and can take damage, I can kill it), to diablo, to kingdoms of amalur reckoning, to any thing with creepy necromancers in it. I already killed aprently the nordic god of destruction, I'll take on the world in skyrim. a tsaesci would not even harm a companion, let alone a vampire lord. I'm already working on a spellsword that will become ultra powerful at the end! as a matter of fact, go get lightning! not only is she an angel of death, but she also killed ............, a god, and is a one woman army, and dosen't mess around, therefore, maybe she might basicaly be a physical godess as well.

      ...Quite apart from your usage of "mana" in place of "magicka", which is hurting my SOUL, that's an amazingly overpowered, gamebreaking Dragonborn, in response to another post about an amazingly overpowered Dragonborn. In fact, the post you replied to involved many things that quite simply disregard lore altogether - for instance, that "Yol-Fo-Strun" Shout, which does not exist, and the rather stupid premise for a battle between the Dovahkiin and a Tsaesci. And then there's the small issue of the fact that both of you are completely overlooking the prowess of the Tsaesci and the fact that we know NOTHING about how powerful they may be in combat. They might have dragons attending them. They might wear superior armor. They might be able to strike enough damage fast enough to overwhelm your party, due to their snakelike speed and agility. They might have foreign magic that is more powerful than yours. And besides all of these holes in your post(s), THIS IS COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC.

      - WorshipsMeridia

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    • 71.61.177.24 wrote:

      ...Quite apart from your usage of "mana" in place of "magicka", which is hurting my SOUL, that's an amazingly overpowered, gamebreaking Dragonborn, in response to another post about an amazingly overpowered Dragonborn. In fact, the post you replied to involved many things that quite simply disregard lore altogether - for instance, that "Yol-Fo-Strun" Shout, which does not exist, and the rather stupid premise for a battle between the Dovahkiin and a Tsaesci. And then there's the small issue of the fact that both of you are completely overlooking the prowess of the Tsaesci and the fact that we know NOTHING about how powerful they may be in combat. They might have dragons attending them. They might wear superior armor. They might be able to strike enough damage fast enough to overwhelm your party, due to their snakelike speed and agility. They might have foreign magic that is more powerful than yours. And besides all of these holes in your post(s), THIS IS COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC.

      - WorshipsMeridia

      Hey, worships, you're back! (to the non RP parts of the wiki)

      The thread was already like massively derailed anyway, going from discussions of MK's legitimacy to all sorts of out of point things, if AWC was confused I wouldn't blame them too much. Anyway, the Tsaesci use dragonscale armor and i'd guess dragonbone katanas (the katanas bit is a guess, but if you did use the scales of a dragon, why not use the bones?). Also they probably fight like your stereotypical ninja. I'd say a tsaesci warroir is no more dangerous than the random leveled people that might attack you one on one.

      In fact, why bother replying? Its just adding to the necromancy on this page, plus I'd say a whole chunk of people here are kids that post once or twice, which means telling them off don't work...

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    • 218.186.253.128 wrote:
      71.61.177.24 wrote:

      ...Quite apart from your usage of "mana" in place of "magicka", which is hurting my SOUL, that's an amazingly overpowered, gamebreaking Dragonborn, in response to another post about an amazingly overpowered Dragonborn. In fact, the post you replied to involved many things that quite simply disregard lore altogether - for instance, that "Yol-Fo-Strun" Shout, which does not exist, and the rather stupid premise for a battle between the Dovahkiin and a Tsaesci. And then there's the small issue of the fact that both of you are completely overlooking the prowess of the Tsaesci and the fact that we know NOTHING about how powerful they may be in combat. They might have dragons attending them. They might wear superior armor. They might be able to strike enough damage fast enough to overwhelm your party, due to their snakelike speed and agility. They might have foreign magic that is more powerful than yours. And besides all of these holes in your post(s), THIS IS COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC.

      - WorshipsMeridia

      Hey, worships, you're back! (to the non RP parts of the wiki)

      The thread was already like massively derailed anyway, going from discussions of MK's legitimacy to all sorts of out of point things, if AWC was confused I wouldn't blame them too much. Anyway, the Tsaesci use dragonscale armor and i'd guess dragonbone katanas (the katanas bit is a guess, but if you did use the scales of a dragon, why not use the bones?). Also they probably fight like your stereotypical ninja. I'd say a tsaesci warroir is no more dangerous than the random leveled people that might attack you one on one.

      In fact, why bother replying? Its just adding to the necromancy on this page, plus I'd say a whole chunk of people here are kids that post once or twice, which means telling them off don't work...

      We have no evidence that the Tsaesci actually killed dragons, just that they "devoured" them...and I don't think anybody is quite sure what "devoured" means to the Tsaesci. Does it mean they literally ate them and took on their attributes? Enslaved them? Assimilated/interbred with them? Culturally appropriated all of their everything? Killed them? I have no idea.

      So we have no evidence that they used dragonbone or scale anything.

      Yes, I am back. I haven't been on the roleplay forums in a while. :/ I wonder if anybody's been using my signature? I've been rather active since yesterday in the lore and Skyrim department, though. :P

      - WorshipsMeridia

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    • I think that it is most likely that the Tsaesci are a group like the volkihar vampires. They can turn into a snake being at will, and when they  "eat" their prey, they become a little bit like them. So, in this case, humans could be among the ranks of the Tsaesci

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    • I think that, like the Aztecs when they first saw the Spanish riding horses, that the Tsaesci had tamed and rode eel or snake like creatures and rode them into battle, and the survivors of the opposing side thought that they must of been half serpentine, and the Tsaesci are vampire like creatures and the Akaviri are just the foot soldiers or the members of the army that don't have mounts

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    • 218.215.11.206 wrote:
      I think that, like the Aztecs when they first saw the Spanish riding horses, that the Tsaesci had tamed and rode eel or snake like creatures and rode them into battle, and the survivors of the opposing side thought that they must of been half serpentine, and the Tsaesci are vampire like creatures and the Akaviri are just the foot soldiers or the members of the army that don't have mounts

      this makes sence

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    • What if they have the figure and body shape of men but scales and facial features like a snake? Like think of a face like voldemort from harry potter where the nose is like slits and the eyes serpentine but the skin of them will be scaled and multi-colored. Just a thought.

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    • Like the wiki said we dont knwo there are only theories but I would like it if they were serpant people rather than men because just another race of men is boring.

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    • Tsaesci would look like the huge face at sky haven temple and it would likly be them since they made it. They have two forms, one is humaniod and the other is serpent like. Humaniod Tsaesci are decenants of those you consumed more humans taking most of their features and even after a many years they still resembles them.

      Serpent like consumed humans but as well as the dragons but not all since some ecaped to Po Tun. This gave them distinct reptilian features compared to their other brothers and also gave them a much higher status.

      Tsaeci consumed blood of their victim in the process slaying them as well. Red dragons were enslaved but humans... genocide. Human were not given a chance to be assimilated amongts their nation because if they did they would have migrated to tamriel legal or illegally and our showracemenu would have akaviri on the list.

      Shocking is that how the heck did they kill them all... I expect at least a few would have escaped overseas by at least raft (except if the tsaeci manage to blockade the entire continent which I doubt since there are other nations residing it) and being asian and all. But maybe it's too long ago that they were cave people not knowing any map and considering the world flat and akavir as the only continent in the world and sharpened stick as weapons. Victims of survival of the fittest and yes vampiric snake people would likely murder them all. Wise move I would say, since humans would eventually dominate late game no matter what race you are.

      Akaviri commander Mishaxhi may look human at pale pass but we are not sure if he did have golden scales as skin. Tsaeci do have a face similar to humans. No records say that tsaesci humaniods have tails as well... only the serpent types who slither with their tails. 

      I don't know the source but tsaesci don't use shield and armor... so that means the humanoids are the ones that used it. Some say that they are the handsome argonians and voldemort with a nose. 



       

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    • I have two theorys that are somewhat logical the 1.Tsaesci are one race with variants like kahjiits and the ranking of them depend on moon cycles or seasons from which they hatch. we know that they are a militaristic nation so It could be that they are ranked on the variants combat abilities with half snake/half man variant at top with the humanoid variant as a middle class and giant snakes at the bottom above the enslaved 2. it could be that Tsaesci are naturally half man and half snake and during their war with the akaviri they had pows that survived as slaves and those of the upper class that betrayed their nation for protection not an uncommon instance so you end up having those that ride snakes or are vampiric shapeshifters as the upper class akavari the slaves that are pure human that serve as food, labour and a army and the "pure" Tsaesci that are commanders and diplomats.

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    • Bethesda needs to rehire Michael Kirkbride...you know, to make peace with the fans. ;)

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    • 462513 wrote: Bethesda needs to rehire Michael Kirkbride...you know, to make peace with the fans. ;)

      yes

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    • My personal opinion is that the Tsaecsi are similar-looking to Argonians, but thinner with longer tails.

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    • If I may add my two cents to this topic.

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    • 188.70.40.127 wrote:
      If I may add my two cents to this topic.

      Miss clicked... My personal theory about the Tsaesci is this: They slaughtered and consumed Akaviri Humans. This led to the human features to the physique, They seem to be similar to Argonians however they look more serpent-like and have a natural grace to their movements. Also it can be assumed to some degree that when the games mention Akaviri we can replace it with Tsaesci since:

      When natives of Tamriel think of the Akaviri they think of the Serpent-Folk, because one ruled the Cyrodilic Empire for four hundred years in the previous era. He was Potentate Versidue-Shaie, assassinated by the Morag Tong .

      Mysterious Akavir

      However they are not the only ones to have been to Tamriel, the Kamal have been to Skyrim and Morrowind before during the Second Era Invasion. I believe this has led to the "confusion" in the books as to what the Akaviri look like since to race have been to Tamriel, one that is serpentine (Tscaesci) and one that could look more human (Kamal).

      Also one thing that bugs me in the lore is that the Tsaesci are suposedly "Immortal" yet Potentate Versidue-Shaie was assasinated. Perhaps someone has an explaination.

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    • Raven biter 114 wrote:
      My personal opinion is that the Tsaecsi are similar-looking to Argonians, but thinner with longer tails.

      I'd say they are more reptoid than the Argonians. Close to the Star Trek Xindi-Reptilians.
        

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    • I just read something in one of the above comments that blew my mind. I was about to call bull, but I looked it up and I saw it was a thing.

      There was a Medusa creature in Arena. It is unclear what exactly that is, but could it be the first possible image of what a Tsaeci vaguely looks like. We can't tell very well though, as it may not be a Tsaeci, and even then, Arena is very Pixely.

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    • P The T'saeci are humans from the waist up and snake from below
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    • "As soon as he saw the two warriors enter the arena to the roar of the crowd, Emperor Reman III remembered that he had agreed to this several months before and forgotten about it. One combatant was the Potentate's son, Savirien-Chorak, a glistening ivory-yellow eel, gripping his katana and wakizashi with his thin, deceptively weak looking arms. The other was the Emperor's son, Prince Juilek, in Ebony armor with a savage Orcish helm, shield and longsword at his side." 2920, Morning Star


      Describes them as eel like. They might have arms, but I think they'd be all reptillian or all Humanoid.

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    • There is plenty of reason to believe they're actually humans. Their armor is human shaped and when you encounter a ghost of one it looks like a human. Also, we get hits out of game from a few developers that seem to favor the idea of Akavir humans. My opinion is that the "eating" of the men was a cultural one. Akaviri men still exist but there are also naga-like creatures.

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    • Just to set the record straight, they also were threatening the dragons, and eating them, and that's the whole reason that dragons are in tamriel. I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure a dragon would just laugh if a human-like figure tried to eat it. Implying that the Tsaesci are much more beast-like, as well as that they are actual serpent people.

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    • The Tsaesci Creation Myth And we ate it to become it

      The name of this source should be enough to explain how the Tsaesci work.

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    • Nazul Rostello wrote:

      I'd say they are more reptoid than the Argonians. Close to the Star Trek Xindi-Reptilians.

      Don't forget the Snake Men King Hiss eats people whole.

      The storys in the Elder Scrolls about the more unknown races like the Tsaesci always reminded me of our old maps full of monsters which (probably) weren't there, this being the TES world its more likely to be true but it could still be exaggerated to some amount. They're one of the things i really need to actually see properly in-game to be able to say what they are.

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    • It's important to remember that the Tsaesci were fought against both during the Akaviri invasion of Tamriel and the Imperial invasion of Akavir, and that they ruled the Empire for quite some time as well. I don't believe their description as snake men by so many sources to be simple metaphor: it's likely they simply had humans in their service as part of their empire.

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    • I'd have to agree with -AR-

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    • I have changed my opinion on the subject after reading "Mysterious Akavir." I now believe that they are more like the Yuan-ti , where some of them are abomonations (full-blown snake people) and some are more human/elf like with scales instead of skin.

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    • I liked PLPellegrini's idea on the Tsaesci.  I think there should be more than one "breed" of Tsaesci.

      Maybe MK's "Tsaesci Creation Myth" should also have elements of it introduced into future official Lore.  I'd also love to see someone do an accurate (as possible) Mod for a playable Tsaesci Race.

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    • It's also wholly possible that the Tsaesci both range from bestial serpents to somewhat humanoid snake-like men in the vein of the Khajiit, and also retain human vassals in their service. Given the paucity of sources regarding Akavir and the Tsaesci, we may never know for certain.

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    • most likely they have something like khajiit or argonians so they are born in forms from giant pure snakes to oreintal looking humans

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    • The tsaesci, I believe are both the humanoid snake-men with tails (just cause) and the enslaved humans, which is what became the dragonguard and the blades. They could still be considered tsaesci because they've got the vampirism, which is unique in some way. So the ruling class snakemen like the potentate would be considered pure breeds or high caste while the actual warrior and citizen class humanoids would act as majority population and army. It honestly depends on the creation myth and the term 'eat' if whether literal or metaphorical. We seriously just need to wait for the next game.

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    • That is the most believed and likely theory. That the Tsaesci are the Snake-Men and that they conquered and likely enslaved the Akaviri Men. It is the only way to explain that the Dragonguard/Blades ghosts and the carvings in Sky Haven Temple are humans and not Snake-men.

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    • Old discussion, but I'll add my two cents anyway I guess. It's said that the Tsaesci bred with Imperial highborn families, and that in more recent times it was considered quite an honor to bear a Tsaesci name and have their features. If they were serpent-folk, A: how would they breed with humans, and B: wouldn't their progeny appear more serpentine? How many humans with tails instead of legs have we seen? The accounts of them being "snake-like" are largely from books in-game that have gotten other things wrong, so the validity of the book itself is in question. Esbern claims the Tsaesci built Sky Haven, and bowed before Reman, but all depictions of Reman have humans bowing to him. If I were to venture a guess, I'd put my money on them being human, having armor made of scales from beasts in Akavir, riding serpent or lizard like mounts and dragons. And to top it off, much like we frequently refer to people who are underhanded and treacherous as "snakes" (or, snake in the grass, etc) so too were the Tsaesci after betraying the Imperials and taking the throne.

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    • 24.44.141.89 wrote:
      Are the Tsaesci truly serpentine folk or are they men? The sources that claim that they are serpent folk seems to outnumber the other sources that claim that they are men. However, inside Sky Haven Temple on Alduin's Wall, the Tsaesci are kneeling before the Dragonborn and are depicted to have humanoid figures. The Annotated Anuad lists the Tsaesci as one of the races of man. It is claimed that they "ate" the men on Akiviri but "ate" could men a lot of things. So what do you think the Tsaesci truly are?

      The scource that said the potente lived that long was also the one that said the Tsaesci were snake people and devoured the akiviri. So i dont think that one scource  was that accurate

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    • I think they are Snake Men with Asiatic features, beastfolk sorta, similar to say, an Argonian but serpent themed. I believe there is a book that mentions how when the Tsaesci eat something they can become them if they wish, It would explain how they breed with imperials (in books it states Imperials having sex with Argonians sooo if they can have sex with Lizard people, Serpent looking men and women wouldn't be out of the question) how they could ride mounts and how Imperials would be honored to have Tsaesci facial features, how they built the Sky Haven Temple, them being bipedal in Oblivion (that could also be due to graphical limitations or the developers not wanting to make unique models for ghosts at a single point in the game).

      To me it makes the most sense, not to mention even in ESO it mentions a woman i believe, says she is afraid of scaley and reptilian things since the Akavir invasion

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    • The book that says Imperials prized the facial features and surnames (called the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil) say the Akaviri not specifically the Tsaesci, i think the Akaviri were the ones that integrated with the Imperials (sex is one thing reproducing to pass on traits is another especially with mammals and reptiles).

      I think the Tsaesci and the Akaviri are separate races. The Tsaesci are some form of snakemen, the Akaviri (the first Blades and the ghosts we've seen) were human. TES being TES though it's hard to say for sure (and again i think).

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    • AzuraKnight wrote:
      The book that says Imperials prized the facial features and surnames (called the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil) say the Akaviri not specifically the Tsaesci, i think the Akaviri were the ones that integrated with...

      Thats a possibility too, Although who knows, i know its been mentioned that Khajiit born during a certain phase of the moon look similar to Wood Elves, its possible they are a mixed race of Serpent-like beings and Eastern Men

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    • In my personal opinion I believe that the Tsaesci have a brances of species like the Khajit and Argonians. There is a group that are more serpentine and another group that is more humanoid but still has scales and such.

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    • They are definitely humanoid, if not human. In a quest searching for an Amulet for the Countess of Bruma, (In ES Oblivion) you find the skeleton of a Tsaesci, his diary tells of his travels relaying orders during the Akaviry invasion. His skeleton is very much like a human's.

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    • Maybe they can shift to human form or only theire aristocrats have tailes.

      Sorry if i spelled something wrong,i don't know english wery well

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    • What if the snake men are actually vampire lord forms of the nobility of the Tsaesci? They are described as vampires, correct? Perhaps the nobility have a strain of pure vamperism in their bloodlines that allow them to transform into golden snake men? That would explain the kneeling-mounting-humonoid akaviri we see, along with the snake like emporor that ruled for centuries. Hell, this could even explain why such a small war party can cause so much damage to skyrim if they had vampire lord commanders on their side!

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    • Guys.  Serpent-like men = armor. The Tsaeci are heavily themed on medieval Japan. They use scale armor. So you can see how legends would recount them as "snake" men. Second, the only akaviri to ever come to tamriel were the Tsaeci. So saying that the temple was built by "Akaviri" is the same thing as saying it was built by the Tsaeci. The truth is, the books from the elder scrolls change all of the time. Just like real life, the authors don't always know / write the truth. I personally they are more man-like than beast, and the snake like descriptions are due to their armor / history with the assassinations. My guess is they are a type of Asian-looking men. I would almost go as far as to say they are essentially "Japan". The blades repurposed armor / katanas would hint as much as that. All evidence in game (outside fo books) depicts them as men.

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    • Don't know if anyone will ever read this but I think Bet. would make the Tsaesci humanoid in an TES game as it would be more convenient to give them the pre-built animations and clothing models of the other humanoid races rather than go out of their way to make animations and models specifically tailored to the Tsaesci's snake-like anatomy.

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    • i think, propably like many others, that the tsaesci themselves where serpentine folk, but the akaviri invasions where mostly men from other akaviri races, because they had many slaves as they controlled the whole continent of akavir.

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    • QUOTE(slateman @ Jun 15 2006, 05:07 PM) [1]Much of the lore from Mysterious Akavir is from the scrolls and works of Tosh Raka, the "Tiger-Dragon" who was revered as a divine in Akavir. There was a time when the tiger-beings (of Ka Po'Tun) and the snake-beings (of Po Tun) were at war. The snake-beings had already consumed all of the humans for fear they would someday take over their land, but cleverly, the tiger-beings kept a hidden force of servitor humans to help defend them. After the dust settled, there was still a viable force of human warriors (the precursors to the Blades) whose decedents later on were used in the invasion of Tamriel. This led to the remains of the warriors at Pale Pass.

      We created the lore, and you can take this as "fact".

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    • It could be completely possible that their armor is simply scaled. Like Dragonscale Armor.

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    • This post is a bit old, but I wanted to add a few things since I came across it.

      Keep in mind that there are plot holes in The Elder Scrolls lore (and Bethesda could make mistakes).

      1. It seems more likely that they are serpents since it is said that they ate all of the "men" on Akavir. Plus its unfair to choose either the book vs other evidence and ignore the other.

      2. The "men" could have been enslaved to fight in their armies (consume being a metaphor) or the Tsaesci could shape shift.

      3. ESO describes them as serpents (and even shows a picture of a helmet as well as one item with a description describing them having scaled throats).

      4. The armor theory doesn't make much sense because armor can be changed and the Nords for example aren't called the animal people/the Dark Elves aren't called the bug people.

      5. When the Tsaesci are shown it could instead be referring to the ancient Akaviri (Blades). When does Alduin's Wall ever say anything (I don't recall Esbern ever saying anything, though I could be mistaken)?

      Do we really need another human race, we can have a serpent one? (Like the Tzik'nith)

      There's no definitive answer yet, but I still stand by the book Mysterious Akavir.

      There are other sources and videos on youtube that support this theory, although too many to list.

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    • No, I certainly don't believe the Tsaesci to have literally eaten the humans of Akavir; otherwise, there would've been no "Blades" organization forming to aid the Dragonborn Emperors in the first place.

      And then there's this guy, "Duadeen", who MK (writer of the Redguard comic book) confirmed back then to be half-Akaviri.

      I'd say that this pretty much confirms that the Akaviri humans are still around.

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    • I think the main idea is this: 

      The Akaviri are the humans populating the majority of Akavir, and the Tsaesci are the ruling race that essentially assimilated, dominated or enslaved the Akaviri. They did not literally "eat" them to extinction at any point, as there's still Akaviri people presumably living in Tamriel (particularly Cyrodiil, as the Fighter's Guild was initially only composed of Akaviri men, not to mention the Blades and their whole deal), though they may be an ethnically and culturally diluted minority. 

      The Tsaesci themselves are, thus, not "human". Where exactly on the scale they are is hard to pinpoint, maybe they're antropomorphic like the Argonians, but with more snake-like features and different body morphology. Maybe they're closer to the Lamia and Naga fantasy archetype of a being whose lower half is that of a snake, but their top half is human or human-like. They could also be literal snakes, but I'd assume they at least have hands of some sort, as they don't weild their dai-katanas with their mouths! Personally, and thinking pragmatically, I would say the first option is more accurate: they're an anthropomorphic race with strikingly different features, namely snake-like features, long lifespans, and possibly vampiric and a larger/taller size than the average men and mer. They could have just a tail, and no legs to speak of, while still retaining that look on the rest of their bodies. This would also be the most logical option considering Bethesda may feature them in future games, and they would have an easier time modelling, rigging, animating, etc., something vaguely human rather than big snakes, and also would have a much more interesting race than yet another "plain" human variant. 

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    • A FANDOM user
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