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  • So one of the main causes and events of the Dawnguard expansion was the curse\prophecy of Nirn becoming blocked from the sun, which in turn was created by the Snow Elf and ArchCurate Vyrthur as revenge on the God Auri-El himself for allowing him to be bitten by a vampire, thus becoming one himself.

    This in particular due to Vyrthur's position as highest priest to the God, despite which he became infected by one of his own religious initiates inside the Chantry itself, his people's most sacred worshipping grounds.

    Now: Do you think this was all set in motion because Vyrthur was truely BETRAYED by Auri-El?

    Yes I know we're talking about a virtually unseen God, but consider his powerful position as chief deity of the Elf divine pantheon. Consider the tales of his ancient active intervention in leading all races of mer to defeat the old God Lorkhan for the supposed sake of the elven race. Consider Serana's words: "Auriel should have protected you". Consider Vyrthur's words: "I had the ears of a god!"

    Did Auriel purposedly forsake him? Or dismissed it due to low importance? Or it didnt justify divine intervention? Or is ANY direct divine intervention not possible? Or did he intended for this "gift" to be given for a reason?...

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    • If Divines could cure vamprism then Akatosh would get rid of the Dovahkiin's as soon as he/she got it. Vyrthur should have just simply gotten a Black Soul Gem instead of Butt-hurting for 4000 years.

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    • Haha. Good point.

      However, I think Vyrthur got "butt hurt" and turned against Auriel, not specially because he wasnt cured or helped AFTER contracting vampirism, but specially because he wasnt protected FROM being attacked and infected to start with.

      I think he believed he wasnt just another mere mortal to Auriel, walking in some unknown road at night asking for it. I think he believed he was Auriel's highest and closest servant on Nirn (somewhat like Jesus or the Pope) and ultimate keeper of his religion, and he was preaching within the safety of the God's most sacred grounds. Hence his trauma and feeling of betrayal, because in his mind, despite all of this, the God still allowed it to happen to him.

      Since this original event is one of the main lore causes for the whole Dawnguard DLC, is why I'm curious: Do you think Vyrthur's expectations were legitimate? And do you think Auriel truely just didnt give a f* about it happening to him? Or was Auriel just unable to intervene (perhaps due to the whole Amulet of Kings Covenant by Akatosh, or something else)? Or rather just not SUPPOSED to intervene? OR YET, was it simply within Auriel's plans for this "gift" to enter his highest priest for an actual non-cruel reason? (ie, if the Chantry itself as well as at least two specimen of the original Snow Elf race managed to survive, it was largely thanks to Vyrthur's vampiric superpowers)

      I dunno. What do you guys think? :)

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    • well, there is a possibility that worshipping auriel is both worshipping him when the sun is away and in peak, perhaps auriel allowed vyrthur to get infected to see another side of his worship, but instead of seeing it as a gift he saw it as betrayal

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    • Perhaps as Molag Bal and Auri-El can be considered to almost be mirror-brothers across kalpas (so not normal mirror but similar in position), it was merely Molag Bal undercutting Auri-El by giving it as a gift on behalf of Auri-El and corrupting the Aedras dream as Auri-El and his other mirror brothers - those that are of AKA but not so much of LHKAN, so not AKatosh but similar in so much as the anuic dream fo the dead et'Ada could be perverted so as not to realise that letting his High-Priest become a Vampire was a bad thing..?

      Possibly taking in some of the ideas that him as a Vampire could preserve him while the other Falmer die or ...'degenerate' ...

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    • Sardeth42 wrote:
      Perhaps as Molag Bal and Auri-El can be considered to almost be mirror-brothers across kalpas (so not normal mirror but similar in position), it was merely Molag Bal undercutting Auri-El by giving it as a gift on behalf of Auri-El and corrupting the Aedras dream as Auri-El and his other mirror brothers - those that are of AKA but not so much of LHKAN, so not AKatosh but similar in so much as the anuic dream fo the dead et'Ada could be perverted so as not to realise that letting his High-Priest become a Vampire was a bad thing..?

      Possibly taking in some of the ideas that him as a Vampire could preserve him while the other Falmer die or ...'degenerate' ...

      How is Molag Bal a mirror brother of Auri-el

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    • They switch palces across Kalpas - so not an actual mirror-brother, but hey regardless I would think the Et'Ada that didn't ake part in the creation of Nirn would be able to influence other Ada, I mean AKA is dead; that Auri-El might be alive is just a fragment of life - not to mention possibly just a case of AKA being dead but dreaming he's alive. Perhaps a better jsutification would be that their spheres both entail... How do I word this... Lordship/Leadership, Auri-El as the "king"/leader of the 8 DIvines, and Molag Bal is Domination itself (amongst other things).

      Although on the topic of Mirror-Borhters, as Auri-El & Akatosh are, and Auri-El and Lorkhan are, and as Akatosh is (often said) to be of AKA and LHKAN, he would be a MIrror-Brother of Shor? As Shor is a Mirror-Borther of Lorkahn... so would Auri-El have a Mirror-Brother in Sheor?

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    • Sardeth42 wrote:

      Although on the topic of Mirror-Borhters, as Auri-El & Akatosh are, and Auri-El and Lorkhan are, and as Akatosh is (often said) to be of AKA and LHKAN, he would be a MIrror-Brother of Shor? As Shor is a Mirror-Borther of Lorkahn... so would Auri-El have a Mirror-Brother in Sheor?

      I feel like there is differences in how gods relate to each other.

      I feel like it kind of goes like this

      Padomay   > <       Anu

      <   Aurbis >

      |                         |

      Sithis              Anui-el                                        

      |                        |                                                    

      Lorkhan           Auri-El -----> Akatosh

      |                            |

      |                       Alduin, Tosh Raka, etc.

      Shor    Shezarr    Sheor (actually i'm not sure if Sheor is a real god) etc. 


      Though you seem to know alot more about this than I do

      (can you send me a link to where it says Molag and Auri-El switched?)

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    • LOL man interesting theory i was curious why he didn't intervened but as someone said if they had the power to do so, dragonborn being a vampire could have been cured instantly by Akatosh. Or does being a vampire doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad thing? Perhaps Vyrthur just assumed he was supposed to be protected from everything when that isn't really the case.

      Unless Auri-el figured he wasn't exactly pure hearted like his brother and decided to allow the change to test his resolve to serve him and Vyrthur just saw it as defiance or something idk. 

      You can clearly see he's crazy when he's trying to kill both you and serana, but that makes me question his skills. He claims he's close to a god yet the dragonborn just killed him. Seems kinda funny how weak he is, i was level 77 when I beat him so I expected a tougher fight but 3 fireballs and he was killed. Very Anti-Climactic

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    • Look at it, Vyrthur was practically forced to be a vampire or he wanted to be one cause if he wasn't, he could have just prayed at the shrine of Auriel and cure his Sanguinare Vampiris (the precursor disease) quite easily, unless he was turned into a vampire lord, which is doubtful of he would have just transformed and go Harkon boss fight mode. So, either Akatosh did not give a crap, or he had no ability to cure it (doubtful cause praying at a shrine gets rid of Sanguinare Vampiris, but can't cure the whole lot).

      So, unless Vyrthur was turned into a vampire immediately (highly doubtful), he could have cured his illness (he would have known if he checked his "active effects" tab :P). So, maybe all his rant against Akatosh is just a poor escuse for truly wanting to be a vampire?

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    • Nice point, dear contributor and I am inclined to see your post as "the most likely story" -

      4000 years is a long time after all and Vyrthur might not even remember that this was the original case. It could have started with "What a stupid idea I had, being a vampire is not all it is cracked up to be." through: "Why did you not stop me, Auri-El, this was easily the most stupid thing I did in my unlife?" to: "Damn you Auri-El, you made me a f**ing bloodsucker!!" 4000 Years in a cave can do that.

      There is an alternative though: S**t happens.

      Remember the tale of Job?

      If it was a test (and Auri-El might have known that Vyrthur would flunk royally), then praying at the shrine would do no good.

      Being close to a god is no guarantee for protection (or power).

      Also to stealthblade: When you burned Vyrthur his high-priest-days are over for 4000 years.

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    • 202.156.8.12 wrote:
      Look at it, Vyrthur was practically forced to be a vampire or he wanted to be one cause if he wasn't, he could have just prayed at the shrine of Auriel and cure his Sanguinare Vampiris

      Hmmm... Perhaps Vyrtur did pray at a shrine, and Auri-El had forsaken him.

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    • i still like my idea, of auriel trying to show vyrthur another form of his worship 

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    • If the existence as a vampire (a creature of Molag Bal, nothing less) is a part of being worthy in the eyes of Auri-El, the existing tenets of the faith have to be seriously rethought. But who is to say you are wrong?

      Maybe the wheel has to turn again and we have to strike Akatosh (now revealed to be a face of Molag Bal) from the list of divines.

      Who is next?

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    • Amperial wrote:

      Also to stealthblade: When you burned Vyrthur his high-priest-days are over for 4000 years.

      Not quite sure what you're saying here? Are you saying his status as close to a god was over ever since becoming a vampire 4000 years ago?

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    • As far as we know, yes that is what I was saying.

      Sorry for being unclear.

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    • Well he sure as hell had enough power to destroy the chapels roof which made it seem he was quite powerful but ended up being insanely owned by me lol

      They should have increased his health like 3x if you're like level 70+

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Well he sure as hell had enough power to destroy the chapels roof which made it seem he was quite powerful but ended up being insanely owned by me lol

      They should have increased his health like 3x if you're like level 70+


      I normally Fus-Ro-Dah him off the cliff.

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    • I wanted his gear so I didn't do that :(

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      I wanted his gear so I didn't do that :(

      Ethereal Shout + Fast Travel =  Loot

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    • Some great personal interpretations and theories on the subject arising from this whole discussion. If I can comment on some:

      108.253.68.177 wrote: [...]perhaps auriel allowed vyrthur to get infected to see another side of his worship[...]

      Interesting. I had posed the possibility that IF Auriel did actively allow it, it could be to sacrifice the identity and well-being of his highest\closest priest for the sake of an entire race (the Snow Elf race and their "Mecca", the Chantry, didnt completely go extinct arguably thanks to Vyrthur's undead powers defeating the Falmer invasion). But your simpler possibility might be right.

      Sardeth42 wrote: [...]the anuic dream fo the dead et'Ada could be perverted so as not to realise that letting his High-Priest become a Vampire was a bad thing..? Possibly taking in some of the ideas that him as a Vampire could preserve him while the other Falmer die or ...'degenerate' ...

      While trying to understand your texts in this thread I get the feeling that you either over-analyse the divines lore to the point of arguable personal conclusions and relations, or you actually have a pretty advanced understanding of it lol. I am inclined for the second, as you made me think about it more deeply. Yet, focusing on the subject of discussion, do I correctly understand that you propose that maybe Molag Bal made this event happen as part of his enduring plot to subvert the Aedra's untampering protection of Nirn, and negatively influenced\tricked Auriel by making him think that there would be good reasons to allow it? Mmmh...

      StealthBlade98 wrote: [...]Perhaps Vyrthur just assumed he was supposed to be protected from everything when that isn't the case. [...]He claims he's close to a god yet the dragonborn just killed him[...]

      Yes, just like I thought if simply Vyrthur's expectations were illegitimate: A mere elf being specially and directly protected by a God. Speaking of, did he ever really say he's close to a god as in he's almost godlike, or he rather said it as in he was religiously close to a god (Auriel)?

      202.156.8.12 wrote: [...]he wanted to be one cause if he wasn't, he could have just prayed at the shrine of Auriel and cure his Sanguinare Vampiris quite easily[...]

      Amperial wrote: [...]4000 years is a long time after all and Vyrthur might not even remember that this was the original case. [...]There is an alternative though: S**t happens. [...]Being close to a god is no guarantee for protection (or power)[...]

      If it really is that easy to cure it, and also was thousands of years ago, then you're either tapping into an overlooked flaw by the lore writers (the highest priest of a God would surely know this and know how to pray more faithfuly and powerfully than anyone else), or you're tapping into further confirmation that Auriel truely forsake him. Both that or "S**t happens" (the whole illegitimate expectations point) seem a bit better than the "he let himself be attacked and bitten cuz he wanted it but then was disappointed so he decided to blame his God and spend immortality in a cave fabricating prophecies against him" thing. IMO

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    • He said during the ending sequence he had the ears of the god and mad it sound like he was supposed to be protected by auriel because he was the highest authority at the chapel. Whether it was stated 100% idk but i suppose out of everyone he was the closes to the god auriel than anyone else possibly hinting being close to a god. 

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    • Just as in real life - there are things that are, there are things people believe that are and there are things people tell you that are.

      This doesn´t even touch the area of "should be".

      There is only one possible way to find the truth. Test it. Or as the buddhists say: If you meet the Buddha - kill him.

      In the 8. century there was an english monk, by the name of Wynfrieth (the peacewinner, if I interpret this correctly), who took the name Bonifatius (literally the Do-gooder!!) and went to Germany, where he felled an oak that was sacred to Thor (Donar as he was called in that area).

      Was he struck by lightning? Or a hammer thrown?  He wasn´t.

      As the germans of that time were a practical people, they concluded that either Jesus protected that strange foreigner and thus was mightier and more worthy of worship than Donar, or Donar didn´t bother to respond and thus was equally unworthy of worship.

      Same with Vyrthur - He says, that he has the ear of a god, he might even believe it, but then there is his actual fatre.

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    • what is fatre?

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    • Come on, you must have heard of the Dread Fatre Morgana :).

      No, actually my keyboard is too dang small and so sometimes I hit more keys than I intend to.

      Plus I had run out of coffee when I wrote this, so I did not catch it. But you did. :).

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    • so you meant to say fate? But anyway i think he obviously thought himself to be more important than what he was, and assumed the auriel was going to save him when clearly never happened. Much like Akatosh protecting the dragonborn from becoming a vampire lord. 

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    • That´s the point where we finally agree.

      Vyrthur went like "Yay, I am the big-ass high-priest, seducer of all the chicas, and if you want to hurt me you have to walk through my personal Auri-El first and he is going to whoop your ass!"

      And the Dragonborn went: "FUS RO DAH!!!!!"

      - The End-

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    • well i didn't go fusrodah on him, i just fireball his butt :P

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    • Vyrthur's interpretation of Auri'El may have also been inaccurate from the start. After all, he created a humanoid and gave him/her the soul of a dragon, for the sole purpose of killing his wayward children(dragons). A father who sends his youngest into such mortal danger, against his other children no less, is not likely to be protective of one man over others.

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    • ^Auri-El didn't necassarily do that. At any rate the Time God did, although technically I think there could be an arguement that due to Space=Time, Shezzarine=Dragonborn, you could conflate any number of ways for Auri-El to be separet from that, all the gods ahve capacity for ridiculously complicated (inter)relationships, and it's been a while since I've thought of what's in this post in particular, but I would suggest that the exact meaning isn't any that lie here, or rather it is a few that have bee listed here and more of which some work together better and some in opposites. Truth in such matters is (even in-universe) multi-faceted and more importatn is the result than the event. Mythopoetia and such.

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    • i'm confused here, what are you suggesting the time god thing? That he just decided not to help Vyrthur of his vampirism cause of the dragonborn fate to meet him at a certain era?

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    • I'm suggesting that there was nothing wrong with Vyrthur's interpretation of Auri'El, except that I don't think Auri-El abbandoned so him so much as he's schizophrenic and kind of dead and dreaming like your typical Great Old One, only less mindbreaking when looked on and somewhat closer to a understandable morality. Endless reasons that don't contradict canon could be provided to explain what happened to Vythur. I for one like to subscribe to the ones where Molag Bal had a hand in distracting Auri-El via there vague overlap in spheres and kalpic standings depending on your interpretation of the fights of the aldudaga amongst other alternate kalpic lore.

      As for the dragonborn I see nothing to directly tie Auri-El to that. aye they are both related to the Time God, but one is a Mirror-Brother the other is debatably an avatar/child of...

      Akatosh is not Auri-El is not Alkosh, all are AKA/the time god oversoul. ALthough Akatosh has a fair bit of Space god tied in, not to mention general thing with enatiomorphs resulting in the King and Rebel becoming indistuigishable form a certain angle....

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    • Every time you post something I just wish Michael Kirkbride was here to comment on it...

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    • What if Vyrthur was the one who had forsaken Auri-El by considering himself almost a god. I mean he clearly acted like he was the closet thing to a god in Nirn and thought evreyone else less to him. What if he was that way before he was infected. Also even when Vyrthur was a vampire there were more than one snow elves, I think there were around 100 If I remeber what hes brother said. What If Auri-El decided to curse Vyrthur by infecting him, forcing him out of what he considered his ´´godhood´´ which was the sun. Also mabey the reason Vyrthur was so easy to defeat was because he was a vampire and I for one fought him in the sun.

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    • i killed him and I was a vampire too but then no one can defeat a dragonborn lol

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    • In response to the OP, I think the Dwemer might argue that there was no god (or even greater being) and that the magic of the artefact made and used, fraudulently, in the name of Auri-El was either misapplied, applied too late or, perhaps, not at all. Moreover, it is quite possible that Vyrthur embraced vampirism to help press his own advantage but simply played the victim to pacify those who might object to his dietary preferences (which fits very nicely into a culture which would tolerate the kind of backstabbing betrayal which brought about the Night of Tears). Moreover, it's not as if Auri-El is either brave or potent or even honest enough to make an appearance and correct Vyrthur's misconceptions - and these typically divinity-defying shortcomings, so very evident in this "god", would definitely work to Vyrthnur's advantage were he attempting to deceive the Dovahkiin. In fact, it seems that Vyrthur's prophecy and the bow, by which he intended to make that prophecy into reality, seems very much the attempt to display a power by which the illusion of a new god could be created.

      In the context of the seemingly overt supernatural intervention depicted in the Elder Scrolls, however, I think the possibility suggested by MaxicutTLC would also make sense.

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    • <-- (OP, now registered)

      Are you sure the Dwemer would engage in atheistic argumentations even after the heart of a God was directly associated with the extinction of their entire advanced and powerful race?

      So you suggest that Vyrthur might have contracted vampirism on purpose? His character seemed truly miserable and desillusioned and traumatized and grudgy to me... but hey maybe.

      Yes, MaxicutTLC's theory seemed quite plausible to me too.

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    • Thank you my theorys are amazing

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    • Hi Contributor 62 and welcome, however belated  :)

      I'm not sure that the Dwemer are extinct. But I think if they were available for comment, their point of view, regarding the more powerful entities in the Elder Scrolls Universe, would remain largely unchanged. Don't forget, they treated the heart of Lorchan as little more than a machine part and, to what end, the commentators of the time would not have been technology-savvy enough to grasp. It could have been anything from mass teleportation device, to a spaceship or even a humble robot wherewith to terrorise their enemies. But I think that their insular focus on technology suggests that their culture tended to look beyond the narrow view of allies and enemies and see a larger picture of alternative territories - which would explain why they dug out these very secure underground fortresses of theirs instead of going out and conquering their enemies (as opposed to defeating them in battle then proceeding to return underground and largely ignore the surfacers). Maybe I'm missing something here, but that's how I see the Dwemer based on the clues left lying around.

      As for the Snow Elves, well, they seem to have a history and I'd wager that Vyrthur was part and party to the generation of Snow Elves who entered into an alliance with the Nedes that they never intended to honour. I find it doubtful that any desire to possess of the Eye of Magnus had anything to do with the Night of Tears because, if it did, it would have made the Nedes indispensible to the Falmer as a people who could unearth and unlock the benefits of more such artefacts. Rather, I think that it was more that the Falmer took on the alliance with the concealed expectation that the Nedes would find conditions too harsh and depart their lands and, when that did not happen...

      So, in the absence of any acknowledgement of some of the key problems in the decision to launch the attack now known as the Night of Tears, I'd be inclined to be particularly cautious of what Vyrthur and his offsider have to say about things - even things they seem to feel strongly about. Don't forget, it requires culturally ingrained tolerance of deception to consider violation of the white flag and attacks on allies even remotely acceptable - and this is where I get the idea that the Snow Elves are, culturally speaking, particularly sophisticated deceivers and never to be trusted in anything they say or do.

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      Hi Contributor 62 and welcome, however belated  :)

      I'm not sure that the Dwemer are extinct. But I think if they were available for comment, their point of view, regarding the more powerful entities in the Elder Scrolls Universe, would remain largely unchanged. Don't forget, they treated the heart of Lorchan as little more than a machine part and, to what end, the commentators of the time would not have been technology-savvy enough to grasp. It could have been anything from mass teleportation device, to a spaceship or even a humble robot wherewith to terrorise their enemies. But I think that their insular focus on technology suggests that their culture tended to look beyond the narrow view of allies and enemies and see a larger picture of alternative territories - which would explain why they dug out these very secure underground fortresses of theirs instead of going out and conquering their enemies (as opposed to defeating them in battle then proceeding to return underground and largely ignore the surfacers). Maybe I'm missing something here, but that's how I see the Dwemer based on the clues left lying around.

      The Dwemer refused to worship the gods because they were arrogant and they couldn't except the fact that they were lesser beings. In order to prove they were better than the gods they attempted to make a god out of themselves (Numidium).

      I don't recall seeing anything that has said they treated Lorkhan's Heart as just a "machine part".

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    • That "the Dwemer refused to worship the gods because they were arrogant and could not accept the fact that they were lesser beings" is a sentiment I recall being expressed by one of the NPC authors within TES - but is this sentiment fact or interpretation? Let us look at it another way. What can possibly make one entity possessed of volition superior to another entity possessed of volition? How is it that volition can remain in one when the freedom of choice, by which that volition is defined, is denied by the superiority of the other? How can the endurance of volition in spite of its denial not prove that the supremacy of the denier is false? I think that this comes back to the distinction between might and right. Perhaps I am wrong, but bravely copying and pasting an excerpt from the article on Numidium:

      "The Numidium was constructed by Dwemer artisans during the First Era and was intended to serve as a god of sorts for the Dwemer people. There are many accompanying theories that it was built to allow for Mortal Plane transcendence."

      I vaguely recall seeing both theories expressed by books within TES. The first theory suffers from the slight difficulty that the Dwemer had an atheistic perspective and did not recognise godhood in any form (which, funnily enough, was particularly offensive to daedra if what is stated in Azura and the Box is more than theological confabulation). The second theory communicates the idea that the Dwemer constructed the device as a gateway to somewhere else - only, as seen above, expressed in words more appropriate to the period. The second theory seems to fit more closely to the underground abodes of the Dwemer who did not seem to show as much interest, as the other cultural groups, in conquering vast surface areas.

      And, while it is true that the use of the Heart of Lorkhan as a machine part is not expressed in exactly those words, is it not the case that anything used to make a machine function is being treated as a machine part in the course of that use?

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    • TES, like many other games, get many ideals form reality. Even atheist seem to turn to science as a form of God: despite any contradictions or falsehoods in what they believe, it is always true to them and infallible, until they reinterpret it in a different way. And like with the Dwemer they do tend to look down on others the same way religious zealots look down on people who do not see the same as them, or how they perceive that Gods look down on Humans. Not all scientist though, but a lot and many atheist.

      If you can understand all sides and angles of the RL version, maybe you can understand the same for TES. Also understanding what happens to Humans in RL lore and myths, when they over-step their boundaries or limits might help you come to a better understanding of what happened to the Dwemer. The writers of TES lore want ever say exactly what happened, cause they won't be able to agree on what should be the true lore; because of that, being able to comprehend all likely scenarios and just accept that all are true is an easy way to reach closure on the subject.

      As for the OP, the same can be said about your question(s). If you can accept that all scenarios are true then you can reach closure, find an answer to your question(s). And I didn't read through all of the above, so I'm sorry if someone mentioned these 2 cases already.

      Auri-El could have been testing his faith, loyalty and worth by allowing him to be infected. If he was faithful, he'd see it as a test instead of the betrayal that he did. If he was loyal, he wouldn't switch to worshipping Molag Bal instead, and definitely wouldn't have turned against Auri-El. If he was worthy of being at such a high ranking position, he would have been able to overcome it without the help of Auri-El.

      Auri-El never really cared; Vyrthur and every other person that thinks the Devine's or even Daedra, actually care about them in any way are just fooling themselves.

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    • MaxicutTLC wrote: Thank you my theorys are amazing

      hehe! :)

      Smoking.Chimp wrote: Hi Contributor 62 and welcome, however belated  :) I'm not sure that the Dwemer are extinct. [...]and this is where I get the idea that the Snow Elves are, culturally speaking, particularly sophisticated deceivers and never to be trusted in anything they say or do.

      Thankyou! :) Oh and such "unlocked doors" as the possibility of Dwemer not actually being extinct are like delicious and exciting prospects in a gamer's\lorereader's mind!

      Mmmh, I got the idea that Vyrthur's brother was of an honourable and quite faithful fibre. Could be wrong. And would the Nords highly attend and honour their terrible foe, the Snow Prince, in death, much more than they attended and honoured his killer, their infant hero Finna, in life OR death (something that still makes me smh about that episode...), had there been a shadow of doubt about HIS honour? Nords dont usually take lightly to those things. But yes, you still make a good point.

      ArhenMaoDante wrote: [...] Even atheist seem to turn to science as a form of God[...]As for the OP, the same can be said about your question(s). If you can accept that all scenarios are true then you can reach closure[...]Auri-El could have been testing his faith[...]Auri-El never really cared; Vyrthur and every other person that thinks the Devine's or even Daedra, actually care about them in any way are just fooling themselves.

      Ironic that a lot of theist scientists exist, isnt it? lol. Some even wear robes of priesthood heh.

      Not sure if one should necessarily accept ALL possible scenarios as truth. Or at least it should never prevent discussion from being ignited :) After all, that's the purpose isnt it? To present the doubt and have various different views and knowledges shared in order to reach the truth, and if not, perhaps a group of most plausible and likely scenarios. I think we have succeeded somewhat in that already, and if that was what you meant, then yes I've reached a comfortable closure on the subject I guess, and thanks for that advice :)

      Your whole faith testing hypothesis seems pretty reasonable too heh. However, did I misinterpret, or did you contradict it immediately after, with the whole "Deities dont care" thing? And regarding that, I think the way that St Alessia was treated and the way Azura treats are just two examples of too strong of exceptions if that was even to be considered a rule. As usual, stability and change are the only safe rules to have regarding the et'Ada, I believe. Their other feelings and inclinations and attitude expectations are not.

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      That "the Dwemer refused to worship the gods because they were arrogant and could not accept the fact that they were lesser beings" is a sentiment I recall being expressed by one of the NPC authors within TES - but is this sentiment fact or interpretation? Let us look at it another way. What can possibly make one entity possessed of volition superior to another entity possessed of volition? How is it that volition can remain in one when the freedom of choice, by which that volition is defined, is denied by the superiority of the other? How can the endurance of volition in spite of its denial not prove that the supremacy of the denier is false? I think that this comes back to the distinction between might and right. Perhaps I am wrong, but bravely copying and pasting an excerpt from the article on Numidium:

      "The Numidium was constructed by Dwemer artisans during the First Era and was intended to serve as a god of sorts for the Dwemer people. There are many accompanying theories that it was built to allow for Mortal Plane transcendence."

      I vaguely recall seeing both theories expressed by books within TES. The first theory suffers from the slight difficulty that the Dwemer had an atheistic perspective and did not recognise godhood in any form (which, funnily enough, was particularly offensive to daedra if what is stated in Azura and the Box is more than theological confabulation). The second theory communicates the idea that the Dwemer constructed the device as a gateway to somewhere else - only, as seen above, expressed in words more appropriate to the period. The second theory seems to fit more closely to the underground abodes of the Dwemer who did not seem to show as much interest, as the other cultural groups, in conquering vast surface areas.

      And, while it is true that the use of the Heart of Lorkhan as a machine part is not expressed in exactly those words, is it not the case that anything used to make a machine function is being treated as a machine part in the course of that use?

      "It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane."

      -Baladas Demnevanni

      This quote explains that the Dwemer hated the idea that they were insuperior to the gods.

      Mortals are the product of Lorkhan's limitations + multiple self-reflection gradients of gods; which is basically splitting gods into many pieces (this is creation).

      Now think; if mortals are merely pieces of gods, what happens when you put them back togethor?

      Numidium's purpose was to do this very thing, to anti-create and bring the Dwemer into a state before the Dawn, before Lorkhan's limits and self-reflection.

      "Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater."

      -Skeleton Man

      Numidium was made from the Dwemer themselves, for this reason Numidium is no machine but in fact a god.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      That "the Dwemer refused to worship the gods because they were arrogant and could not accept the fact that they were lesser beings" is a sentiment I recall being expressed by one of the NPC authors within TES - but is this sentiment fact or interpretation? Let us look at it another way. What can possibly make one entity possessed of volition superior to another entity possessed of volition? How is it that volition can remain in one when the freedom of choice, by which that volition is defined, is denied by the superiority of the other? How can the endurance of volition in spite of its denial not prove that the supremacy of the denier is false? I think that this comes back to the distinction between might and right. Perhaps I am wrong, but bravely copying and pasting an excerpt from the article on Numidium:

      "The Numidium was constructed by Dwemer artisans during the First Era and was intended to serve as a god of sorts for the Dwemer people. There are many accompanying theories that it was built to allow for Mortal Plane transcendence."

      I vaguely recall seeing both theories expressed by books within TES. The first theory suffers from the slight difficulty that the Dwemer had an atheistic perspective and did not recognise godhood in any form (which, funnily enough, was particularly offensive to daedra if what is stated in Azura and the Box is more than theological confabulation). The second theory communicates the idea that the Dwemer constructed the device as a gateway to somewhere else - only, as seen above, expressed in words more appropriate to the period. The second theory seems to fit more closely to the underground abodes of the Dwemer who did not seem to show as much interest, as the other cultural groups, in conquering vast surface areas.

      And, while it is true that the use of the Heart of Lorkhan as a machine part is not expressed in exactly those words, is it not the case that anything used to make a machine function is being treated as a machine part in the course of that use?

      "It was unfashionable among the Dwemer to view their spirits as synthetic constructs three, four, or forty creational gradients below the divine. During the Dawn Era they researched the death of the Earth Bones, what we call now the laws of nature, dissecting the process of the sacred willing itself into the profane. I believe their mechanists and tonal architects discovered systematic regression techniques to perform the reverse -- that is, to create the sacred from the deaths of the profane."

      -Baladas Demnevanni

      This quote explains that the Dwemer hated the idea that they were insuperior to the gods.

      Mortals are the product of Lorkhan's limitations + multiple self-reflection gradients of gods; which is basically splitting gods into many pieces (this is creation).

      Now think; if mortals are merely pieces of gods, what happens when you put them back togethor?

      Numidium's purpose was to do this very thing, to anti-create and bring the Dwemer into a state before the Dawn, before Lorkhan's limits and self-reflection.

      "Kagrenac was devoted to his people, and the Dwarves, despite what you may have read, were a pious lot-he would not have sacrificed so many of their golden souls to create Anumidum's metal body if it were all in the name of grand theater."

      -Skeleton Man

      Numidium was made from the Dwemer themselves, for this reason Numidium is no machine but in fact a god.


      Yes, but this is meagrely a variation on some pantheistic interpretation of Dwemer motives when it is highly unlikely that the Dwemer shared this perspective given that:

      'It was unknown what religion the Dwemer had, or if they worshipped any gods or not, but it was known that they scorned the Daedra,[33] the Nine Divines and essentially all of the gods, and attempted to defy them with their values of "reason and logic". The Dwemer people believed that they were more powerful than the gods and could acquire powers that could equal or even rival them.[33][34]'

      More powerful - not superior. And why strive to become something scorned or despised such as the gods? The idea of becoming god is a meagre theological projection which interprets motives in the wrong worldview (i.e in a worldview not shared by the people whose motives are being analysed). So, it seems obvious that the Dwemer were building something other than a 'god' which a superstitious people could only describe using the elements of their own superstition. Moreover, we have this, which actually makes sense given everything they left behind:

      'The Dwemer were a free-thinking and reclusive Elven clan who lived in Tamriel; mostly in Morrowind during the Merethic Era and the First Era. The Dwemer, in general, were a very advanced and powerful civilization. Dwemer society did not force the use of technology over magic, but the general view of their society was that magic was unimportant and pointless, so much so, that most people were not of the Dwemer civilization believed they were "mockers and profaners of the divine."[45]'

      The issue they would have had with the gods could have had nothing to do with being "insuperior" as the whole freethinking principle is based on the idea that there is no superior and there is no inferior in the context of entities possessing volition - in that nobody possesses the superiority necessary to have the right over another's thoughts, ergo title to one's own mind is an inalienable right of the individual. The issue that freethinkers would take with powerful beings who confuse might and right is that of inequality. Moreover, righting the wrongs of inequality may well necessitate the quest for sufficient power to overcome the evil whence that inequality comes.

      As to Numidium:

      "The original power source was the Heart of Lorkhan, whose power the Dwemer had accessed using Kagrenac's Tools: Keening, Sunder, and Wraithguard."

      Evididently, the Heart of Lorkhan was little more than a glorified battery for whatever they were building.

      Now, the Skeleton Man quote is actually attributed to "Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis" who, based on the text of the quote, is pitching a pretty obvious speculation which is rooted, once again, in the perspective of an ancient pantheistic culture who, for example, might mistake a man in armour for a metal golem (I forget the name of the book, but it's a trick the Dwemer are alleged to have played on the one of the Chimer tribes - possibly to discover whether the Chimer tribe in question would honour a treaty).

      The punchline is, don't accept any information as true in any context unless it is underpinned by probative facts which can be verified.  :)

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:


      Yes, but this is meagrely a variation on some pantheistic interpretation of Dwemer motives when it is highly unlikely that the Dwemer shared this perspective given that:

      'It was unknown what religion the Dwemer had, or if they worshipped any gods or not, but it was known that they scorned the Daedra,[33] the Nine Divines and essentially all of the gods, and attempted to defy them with their values of "reason and logic". The Dwemer people believed that they were more powerful than the gods and could acquire powers that could equal or even rival them.[33][34]'

      More powerful - not superior. And why strive to become something scorned or despised such as the gods? The idea of becoming god is a meagre theological projection which interprets motives in the wrong worldview (i.e in a worldview not shared by the people whose motives are being analysed). So, it seems obvious that the Dwemer were building something other than a 'god' which a superstitious people could only describe using the elements of their own superstition. Moreover, we have this, which actually makes sense given everything they left behind:

      'The Dwemer were a free-thinking and reclusive Elven clan who lived in Tamriel; mostly in Morrowind during the Merethic Era and the First Era. The Dwemer, in general, were a very advanced and powerful civilization. Dwemer society did not force the use of technology over magic, but the general view of their society was that magic was unimportant and pointless, so much so, that most people were not of the Dwemer civilization believed they were "mockers and profaners of the divine."[45]'

      The issue they would have had with the gods could have had nothing to do with being "insuperior" as the whole freethinking principle is based on the idea that there is no superior and there is no inferior in the context of entities possessing volition - in that nobody possesses the superiority necessary to have the right over another's thoughts, ergo title to one's own mind is an inalienable right of the individual. The issue that freethinkers would take with powerful beings who confuse might and right is that of inequality. Moreover, righting the wrongs of inequality may well necessitate the quest for sufficient power to overcome the evil whence that inequality comes.

      As to Numidium:

      "The original power source was the Heart of Lorkhan, whose power the Dwemer had accessed using Kagrenac's Tools: Keening, Sunder, and Wraithguard."

      Evididently, the Heart of Lorkhan was little more than a glorified battery for whatever they were building.

      Now, the Skeleton Man quote is actually attributed to "Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis" who, based on the text of the quote, is pitching a pretty obvious speculation which is rooted, once again, in the perspective of an ancient pantheistic culture who, for example, might mistake a man in armour for a metal golem (I forget the name of the book, but it's a trick the Dwemer are alleged to have played on the one of the Chimer tribes - possibly to discover whether the Chimer tribe in question would honour a treaty).

      The punchline is, don't accept any information as true in any context unless it is underpinned by probative facts which can be verified.  :)

      More powerful - not superior.

      Not sure what your trying to say here. Anyways, more powerful and superior are basically synonymous.

      And why strive to become something scorned or despised such as the gods?

      You don't seem to be getting this. It's not like they hated the idea of a "god", they hated the idea they were below the gods. Numidium was their successful attempt to escape creation, to improve themselves, and prove to the universe that they were greater than the gods.

      "Kagrenac and his tonal architects, among them Bthuand Mzahnch, believed they could improve the Dwemer race."

      -Yagrum Bagarn

      More proof:

      "Lord Kagrenac, the foremost arcane philosopher and magecrafter of my era, devised tools to shape mythopoeic forces, intending to transcend the limits of Dwemer mortality"

      -Yagrum Bagarn

      In TES, mythopoeic forces are the powers mortals have over gods (normally the creation of aspects;ex. Alkosh ≠ Akatosh); This power is created from mortals own relation to the gods (once again pointing to the fact that mortals are pieces of gods). If Kagrenac knew how to wield the powers that can split gods apart then it is almost undoubtful he knew how to put them back togethor.

      The issue they would have had with the gods could have had nothing to do with being "insuperior" as the whole freethinking principle is based on the idea that there is no superior and there is no inferior in the context of entities possessing volition

      Freethinking is basing thought on logic and reason, I'm not sure what your point is here as this doesn't contradict anything.

      Plus I never said the Dwemer viewed themselves as insuperior, the reason why they created Numidium was to prove their superiority

      Evididently, the Heart of Lorkhan was little more than a glorified battery for whatever they were building.

      A glorified battery with the power to potentially extinguish their entire race or even the entirety of Nirn. We both know the Dwemer were not stupid, they knew what they were doing when they used the Heart.

      Let me show you a little quote explaining just what the Numidium is capable of.

      "It's not the Brass God that wrecks everything so much as it is all the plane(t)s and timelines that orbit it, singing world-refusals.

      The Surrender of Alinor happened in one hour, but Numidium's siege lasted from the Mythic Era until long into the Fifth. Some Mirror Logicians of the Altmer fight it still in chrysalis shells that phase in and out of Tamrielic Prime, and their brethren know nothing of their purpose unless they stare too long and break their own possipoints."

      -MK posts

      Now take heed of the fact that in the seige of Alinor, the Numidium was being powered merely by part of Wulfharth's soul. To put that power in perspective to the Heart of Lorkhan (the Heart of the World) would probably be like comparing a "AA" to a car battery.

      It should also be noted that the subsequent Dragonbreaks that occur everytime the Numidium is activated, is almost certainly due to the fact that the Dwemer were returning themselves to the Dawn (Which had no linear time).

      Then there is also the fact that the Heart was needed to anti-create themselves.

      "Kagrenac turned his tools upon the Heart, and Nerevaar said he saw Kagrenac and all his Dwemer companions at once disappear from the world"

      -The Battle of Red Mountain

      ...And then there is the whole manner of the Psijic Endeavor possibly being involved as Divayth Fyr believes (Sotha Sil's Last Words...), which requires the Heart of Lorkhan.

      Now, the Skeleton Man quote is actually attributed to "Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis"

      The fact that this dude is of the Marukhati Selective is itself enough to prove his credibility. Those crazy bastards knew how to create Dragonbreaks and channel the Aurbis directly (seriously, they knew how to freaking manipulate "The Tower" itself), I wouldn't doubt it if the Selectives knew more on the subject of anti-creation than the Dwemer did.

      is pitching a pretty obvious speculation

      Obvious speculation, where did you get that? He is completely confident in what he is saying, he even says "Ah. I will tell you the truth, because you will believe none of it.", the only reason why he tells the interviewer what he does is because he knows the guy is too stupid to understand that it's true.

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    • More powerful - not superior.

      "Not sure what your trying to say here. Anyways, more powerful and superior are basically synonymous. "

      No they're not. An armed and set-up machinegunner is more powerful than his pistol-carrying superior officer - which draws the distinction between the two. The power to make a choice is real but superiority is, by comparison, an illusion butressed by totems and insignia of rank - which is how the wearing of a crown elevates a highwayman to a king and why police and soildiers wear uniforms, judges wear funny wigs and theocrats wear strange robes. At the end of the reign, all of this means nothing practical in the face of revolution but, until that time, these various insignia of rank prop up the illusion of superiority.


      Now, the Skeleton Man quote is actually attributed to "Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis"

      "The fact that this dude is of the Marukhati Selective is itself enough to prove his credibility."

      Credibility of the person does not exist but, rather, is an illusion like superiority. It is a fact that knowledgeable and renowned persons err and lie just as often as those who are unknown or lack recognised expertise. The difference is that, because of the credibility illusion, errors and lies propagated by the former endure longer than those propagated by the latter. This is closely related to the lesson imparted by the rather extreme literary contrast between The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy and Alduin is Real. The extremity of this contrast, by the way, seems suggestive of the possibility that this is not Zenimax/Bethesda's (or developers' thereof) first attempt to draw attention to this theme.


      is pitching a pretty obvious speculation

      "Obvious speculation, where did you get that?"

      The fact the statement is made in the absence of supporting facts makes it a speculation, period.

      As for anti-creation, this is a metaphysical matter which cannot be more than a body of culturally biased interpretation. The idea that the Dwemer had something to prove about themselves is another interpretation which imposes foreign cultural elements (e.g. competitionism) which do not necessarily apply to the Dwemer (who could have owned all of Nirn if they'd cared enough about proving themselves to go out conquering). The same problem of cultural and religious modes of insular interpretation divides the conclusions drawn in The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy and Alduin is Real. One is interpreted on the assumption that all gods have both good and evil sides whereas the other is interpreted on the assumption that powerful entities can either be good or bad but cannot be any mixture of the two. 

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    • I like the debate that's going on, BUT, please, don't misuse the quoting. You can reply without the quote or quote a specific highlight.

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      More powerful - not superior.''"Not sure what your trying to say here. Anyways, more powerful and superior are basically synonymous. "No they're not. An armed and set-up machinegunner is more powerful than his pistol-carrying superior officer - which draws the distinction between the two. The power to make a choice is real but superiority is, by comparison, an illusion butressed by totems and insignia of rank - which is how the wearing of a crown elevates a highwayman to a king and why police and soildiers wear uniforms, judges wear funny wigs and theocrats wear strange robes. At the end of the reign, all of this means nothing practical in the face of revolution but, until that time, these various insignia of rank prop up the illusion of superiority.

      You do realize words aren't limited to one context, right? The word superior means to be greater than, it could be used for a variety of things, for example;

      "My power is superior to yours" is absolutely synonymous to "I'm more powerful than you"

      I still don't really see the point your trying to make here.

      Now, the Skeleton Man quote is actually attributed to "Xal, a Human Maruhkati, Port Telvanis"

      "The fact that this dude is of the Marukhati Selective is itself enough to prove his credibility."

      Credibility of the person does not exist but, rather, is an illusion like superiority. It is a fact that knowledgeable and renowned persons err and lie just as often as those who are unknown or lack recognised expertise. The difference is that, because of the credibility illusion, errors and lies propagated by the former endure longer than those propagated by the latter. This is closely related to the lesson imparted by the rather extreme literary contrast between The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy and Alduin is Real. The extremity of this contrast, by the way, seems suggestive of the possibility that this is not Zenimax/Bethesda's (or developers' thereof) first attempt to draw attention to this theme.

      I've given you other evidence that also backs his claim, so his word can be taken credibly, the fact that he is part of an organization responsible for creating the Middle Dawn is icing on the cake.

      is pitching a pretty obvious speculation

      "Obvious speculation, where did you get that?"

      The fact the statement is made in the absence of supporting facts makes it a speculation, period.

      As for anti-creation, this is a metaphysical matter which cannot be more than a body of culturally biased interpretation. The idea that the Dwemer had something to prove about themselves is another interpretation which imposes foreign cultural elements (e.g. competitionism) which do not necessarily apply to the Dwemer (who could have owned all of Nirn if they'd cared enough about proving themselves to go out conquering). The same problem of cultural and religious modes of insular interpretation divides the conclusions drawn in The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy and Alduin is Real. One is interpreted on the assumption that all gods have both good and evil sides whereas the other is interpreted on the assumption that powerful entities can either be good or bad but cannot be any mixture of the two. 

      (who could have owned all of Nirn if they'd cared enough about proving themselves to go out conquering).

      Well they lost to Nords and they lost to the Chimer. I doubt they could conquer the world.

      The idea that the Dwemer had something to prove about themselves is another interpretation which imposes foreign cultural elements (e.g. competitionism)...

      ...The same problem of cultural and religious modes of insular interpretation divides the conclusions drawn in The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy and Alduin is Real.

      Except there is a definite difference, The Alduin/Akatosh Dichotomy and Alduin is Real are, as you said, partially based on cultural belief.

      Anti-Creation is a complete unknown to the people of Tamriel and thus is basically uneffected by the views of a culture and rather is interpreted by the few intelligent people who have discovered it. Not to mention that part of my evidence comes from a Dwemer himself (Yagrum Bagarn)


      I will give you somemore evidence:

      "You in the Fourth Era have already witnessed many of the attempts at reaching the final subgradient of all AE, that state that exists beyond mortal death. The Numidium. The Endeavor. The Prolix Tower. CHIM. The Enantiomorph. The Scarab that Transforms into the New Man."

      -Loveletter

      This quote literally says that the Numidium was used as an attempt to escape AE, to escape existance itself.

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    • "A is superior to B" is absolutely not synonymous with "A's power is superior to B's power" and the distinguishing context has to carried by the text - which it isn't unless the author makes the effort to ensure that it is communicated.

      However, my main point is that in the absence of actual verifiable facts, "it ain't necessarily so".

      This is very much about the key difference between facts and opinions. This is aside from the fact that TES is a very detailed and intricate collection of worldspaces which include in-game mythology, in-game interpretations, in-game propaganda in addition to in-game academic misconduct and in-game documentation of academic pursuits all for the player to explore and unravel in the context of the TES universe. Often the line between reality and mythology is blurred - especially by things like opinion and interpretation which I think I have already explained - but I'll see if I can't make it clearer with a flip-side example:

      Interpretation is generally an arbitrary opinion which is distorted - usually by culturally acquired preconceptions. There was a time, for example, when sailing to the other side of the world was viewed in some cultures as a departure from existence (i.e. once you sailed off the edge of the world). To us, it's just the other side of the world but, to the superstitious of days gone by, such places would have been regarded as outside our existence at the very least and, certainly, those words of the Loveletter would have been more meaningful regarding a person shipwrecked on the other side of the world, to some of these historical people, than invoking the idea of "the other side of the world" which may have been inconceivable to some of those historical people.

      In the case of Xal, he's expressing an interpretation imposing his own cultural mythology in a statement that lacks any probative facts which can be verified by the player through actual gameplay involving the articles in question. While it is a fact that there is a record of Xal making his statement, his statement is, itself, not a statement of fact unless it can be independently verified (or refuted) by direct observation or experiment. So what he is saying is certainly relevant to TES lore but, until the overall technological progress of Tamriel surpasses that of the Dwemer, the idea that the remaining Tamrielic people would understand the Dwemer strikes me as somewhat paradoxical.

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      "A is superior to B" is absolutely not synonymous with "A's power is superior to B's power" and the distinguishing context has to carried by the text - which it isn't unless the author makes the effort to ensure that it is communicated.

      However, my main point is that in the absence of actual verifiable facts, "it ain't necessarily so".

      Let's say "God1" was fighting "God2", and during the fight "God1" says "I am superior to you". The word may not necessarily mean more powerful but in the correct context it can mean this.

      My point when I say "I don't get your point" is being directed towards this; More powerful - not superior, I don't understand why you brought it up in the first place.

      This is very much about the key difference between facts and opinions. This is aside from the fact that TES is a very detailed and intricate collection of worldspaces which include in-game mythology, in-game interpretations, in-game propaganda in addition to in-game academic misconduct and in-game documentation of academic pursuits all for the player to explore and unravel in the context of the TES universe. Often the line between reality and mythology is blurred - especially by things like opinion and interpretation which I think I have already explained - but I'll see if I can't make it clearer with a flip-side example:

      C'mon man, you think that Bethesda hid all this information from us just so that it wouldn't be taken legitimately. There are answers in TES, you just gotta look hard from them.

      Sure you could have a theory that the Dwemer live on another plane or something, but where the f*ck is the evidence. I have given you many different sources that all point to the same answer.

      Interpretation is generally an arbitrary opinion which is distorted - usually by culturally acquired preconceptions. There was a time, for example, when sailing to the other side of the world was viewed in some cultures as a departure from existence (i.e. once you sailed off the edge of the world). To us, it's just the other side of the world but, to the superstitious of days gone by, such places would have been regarded as outside our existence at the very least and, certainly, those words of the Loveletter would have been more meaningful regarding a person shipwrecked on the other side of the world, to some of these historical people, than invoking the idea of "the other side of the world" which may have been inconceivable to some of those historical people.

      Interpretation is generally an arbitrary opinion which is distorted - usually by culturally acquired preconceptions.

      So it just so happens that the "culturally biased" views of a Human Marukhati, a renowned Telvanni wizard, A person who escaped the Landfall, and a Dwemer himself all point to one answer...

      those words of the Loveletter would have been more meaningful regarding a person shipwrecked on the other side of the world,

      Rather than a person who comes from a time possibly more than 1000 years in the future and has escaped AE himself?

      In the case of Xal, he's expressing an interpretation imposing his own cultural mythology in a statement that lacks any probative facts which can be verified by the player through actual gameplay involving the articles in question. While it is a fact that there is a record of Xal making his statement, his statement is, itself, not a statement of fact unless it can be independently verified (or refuted) by direct observation or experiment. So what he is saying is certainly relevant to TES lore but, until the overall technological progress of Tamriel surpasses that of the Dwemer, the idea that the remaining Tamrielic people would understand the Dwemer strikes me as somewhat paradoxical.

      facts which can be verified by the player through actual gameplay involving the articles in question...

      ...his statement is, itself, not a statement of fact unless it can be independently verified (or refuted) by direct observation or experiment.

      Here you are..

      Arniel's Endeavor

      A quest in TES V that has the Dovahkiin find Keening, which Arniel uses upon a warped soul gem (to simulate the Heart of Lorkhan, and what happened to the Dwemer). Arniel disappears out of thin air... but not completely, he can be summoned as a ghost by the Dovahkiin, and why? Because his little experiment bounded him to the Dovahkiin just as the Dwemer bounded themselves to the Numidium (this is also possible evidence that the Dovahkiin is a Shezarrine).

      but, until the overall technological progress of Tamriel surpasses that of the Dwemer,

      Loveletter comes from an era where the technology of the Dwemer has been surpassed.

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    • Thanks, Dovahsebrom. This is is interesting  :^)

      The fact that someone could escape from AE and return to Nirn seems to confirm that AE is a "place" where others abide and can return with the right technology/magic etc. In other words this goes back to the persepective that the Dwemer sought an escape from Nirn. If the Dwemer suddenly acquired faith when, for centuries, they clearly knew better, then this kind of sudden sweeping social change on the scale of being unanimous (unless I am mistaken?) suggests that their civilisation was rocked by something major.

      (You'll notice that this time it's me going out on a limb, here, so what I am saying "ain't necessarily so" either)

      Bravely marching on: As to that "something major" I'm thinking of something large scale and perceived by the Dwemer as "unprecedented" - e.g. such as a strategic defeat (loss of all Skyrim cities and facilities), as opposed to tactical defeat (loss of a single battle, e.g. Red Mountain). The Falmer suddenly becoming occupiers of all Dwemer installations across Skyrim, between the end of a war (started by a brutal Falmer annexation of allied territory under the deceeption that the alliance still applied) and this sudden and seemingly unanimous Dwemer exodus, is suggestive that the so-called slave revolt of the Falmer may have not only been successful but shattered the Dwemer sense of security rooted in centuries of relative safety in their own domain. This may have lead to a perception that Nirn was no longer a safe enough world to live in and, ergo, to a urge to migrate as far away from Nirn as possible.

      But, I think what I was trying to explore when I waded into all this was the idea that maybe the Falmer are not quite the victims some perceive them to be. Again, we have a mystery which is too old to be truly solveable (at least in the absence of time-travellors with all the answers) because, as time goes by, the body of evidence decays with, well, all the other bodies (something which is understood all too well in the forensic sciences - not just in archeology).

      I think that Zenimax/Bethesda have gone to a lot of trouble to make their representations of Nirn as immersive as possible - i.e. extremely detailed in terms of real-world themes (as opposed to pandering to button-mashers with higher graphic resolution and "depth of combat" systems). I mean, just look at the Empire/Stormcloak civil war - it's certainly not black and white as its factions portray it - which is exactly how things go in a civil war. What we see here is very much a real world theme where information is selectively covered up by both sides whose real enemy is rolling with laughter on the sidelines. So I think that the obscurity and obfuscation of information is a very important real world theme (with respect to giving a narrative sufficient relevance to hold the attention of the audience). You'll see this in all the great modern works - e.g. Tolkien, Salvatore, Anderson, Hamilton, Crichton, etc. - even George Lucas and his special effects couldn't have succeeded without this theme.

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      Thanks, Dovahsebrom. This is is interesting  :^)

      I guess I should have brought Arniel's Endeavor up to begin with then.

      It should be noted that this quest could be hinting that the Numidium, like Divayth Fyr says, utilizes the Psijic Endeavor to anti-create (which supports the necessity of Lorkhan's Heart), as the quest name is Arniel's "Endeavor" (Endeavor often being the word used to abbreviate Psijic Endeavor).

      This also fits in well with the Walking Ways as Numidium comes right after the Endeavor.

      1. -The Tower
      2. -The Endeavor
      3. -The Numidium (anti-creation)
      4. -The Enantiomorph
      5. -CHIM
      6. -The Scarab that Transforms into New-Man

      Bravely marching on: As to that "something major" I'm thinking of something large scale and perceived by the Dwemer as "unprecedented" - e.g. such as a strategic defeat (loss of all Skyrim cities and facilities), as opposed to tactical defeat (loss of a single battle, e.g. Red Mountain). The Falmer suddenly becoming occupiers of all Dwemer installations across Skyrim, between the end of a war (started by a brutal Falmer annexation of allied territory under the deceeption that the alliance still applied) and this sudden and seemingly unanimous Dwemer exodus, is suggestive that the so-called slave revolt of the Falmer may have not only been successful but shattered the Dwemer sense of security rooted in centuries of relative safety in their own domain. This may have lead to a perception that Nirn was no longer a safe enough world to live in and, ergo, to a urge to migrate as far away from Nirn as possible.

      The Dwemer of Skyrim actually weren't part of Dwemereth, just as the Dwemer of Volenfell weren't; except in Skyrim, the Dwemer lived in tiny little city-states (which were conquered during the Skyrim Conquests). They weren't very fond of each other either, the Aetherium Wars proved that. I would also like to point out that the factor that ended the War of the Crag was the disappearance of the Dwemer, so in a way, the Dwemer never really lost the war.

      But, I think what I was trying to explore when I waded into all this was the idea that maybe the Falmer are not quite the victims some perceive them to be. Again, we have a mystery which is too old to be truly solveable (at least in the absence of time-travellors with all the answers) because, as time goes by, the body of evidence decays with, well, all the other bodies (something which is understood all too well in the forensic sciences - not just in archeology).

      The Falmer were the victims to the Dwemer in a way similar to how the humans were victims to the Ayleids. The Ayleids oppressed the humans to an extremity and they paid for it, sure Pelinal shouldn't have gone on Ayleid slaying massacres but the Ayleids got what was coming to them.

      I think that Zenimax/Bethesda have gone to a lot of trouble to make their representations of Nirn as immersive as possible - i.e. extremely detailed in terms of real-world themes (as opposed to pandering to button-mashers with higher graphic resolution and "depth of combat" systems). I mean, just look at the Empire/Stormcloak civil war - it's certainly not black and white as its factions portray it - which is exactly how things go in a civil war. What we see here is very much a real world theme where information is selectively covered up by both sides whose real enemy is rolling with laughter on the sidelines. So I think that the obscurity and obfuscation of information is a very important real world theme (with respect to giving a narrative sufficient relevance to hold the attention of the audience). You'll see this in all the great modern works - e.g. Tolkien, Salvatore, Anderson, Hamilton, Crichton, etc. - even George Lucas and his special effects couldn't have succeeded without this theme.

      This is true, and there are always good guys among what are considered "bad guys" in TES (Many Ayleids actually sided themselves with the Slave Revolts), but don't forget the Dwemer are gone; and I can't help but feel like Bethesda is trying to say "If these guys were still here, you'd be f*cked".

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    • Something I came across, which I missed in my travels, is the identity of the Marukhati Selective as a fanatical religious sect of the Alessian Order. As a member of this sect, or one of it's subsects being a "Human Marahkati" (sic.), Xal is not only a Dwemer with one foot in the Dwemer culture, but he is also a member of a sect with his other foot firmly planted in a rigid creed or dogma. He will, thus, interpret his own people and their deeds in terms of this doctrine because it is the only way for him to reconcile the facts of his people with the mythology of his religious beliefs.

      So the whole business of Xal describing the Dwemer as "pious souls" and portraying Kagranac as some sort of high priest sacrificing "their golden souls" strikes me as meagerly a narrow religious interpretation of something which is either beyond the understanding of that religion or beyond its ability to accept (i.e. outside its cosmology). This is another example of why I think it prudent to allow for the distortions which alternative perspectives can impose on the way things are communicated - and, as a major modern consideration, it stands to reason that such themes will find their way into modern literature, film and RPGs.

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      Something I came across, which I missed in my travels, is the identity of the Marukhati Selective as a fanatical religious sect of the Alessian Order. As a member of this sect, or one of it's subsects being a "Human Marahkati" (sic.), Xal is not only a Dwemer with one foot in the Dwemer culture, but he is also a member of a sect with his other foot firmly planted in a rigid creed or dogma. He will, thus, interpret his own people and their deeds in terms of this doctrine because it is the only way for him to reconcile the facts of his people with the mythology of his religious beliefs.

      So the whole business of Xal describing the Dwemer as "pious souls" and portraying Kagranac as some sort of high priest sacrificing "their golden souls" strikes me as meagerly a narrow religious interpretation of something which is either beyond the understanding of that religion or beyond its ability to accept (i.e. outside its cosmology). This is another example of why I think it prudent to allow for the distortions which alternative perspectives can impose on the way things are communicated - and, as a major modern consideration, it stands to reason that such themes will find their way into modern literature, film and RPGs.

      So you're saying a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists cultural and religious beliefs hold that the Dwemer (an Elven Race) were enduring and pious souls? Sounds almost the exact opposite of what the Alessian Order would believe (were talking about the guys who are responsible for the near extinction of Ayleids here).

      As I said before, these Marukhati Selectives held an unbelievable understanding of the Universe and how it worked. Their ideas on what happened to the Dwemer are not based off of cultural or religious beliefs (if that were the case they'd probably say the Dwemer all died),. The Marukhati Selective most likely discovered the Dwemers fate from evidence gained from their own experiments with "the Tower".

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    • Well, seeing as you put it that way, I'm saying that Xal holds with "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" and, whatever he might say about the Dwemer, for Xal to continue to hold with "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" he must be known for saying things which "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" can accept or he won't hold with them much longer, will he?

      The rest is speculative. How do we know, for example, that this "group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" actually experimented with anything? Do we have to take their word for it? What on Nirn is "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" doing with a Deep Elf (Xal) in their midst? And why would we believe that these Marukhati Selectives, "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists", would know anything about the universe much less believe that they could know more than the Dwemer who, incidently, proved their knowledge with the technology they produced? Where is the technology of the Marukhati Selectives and how does it exceed that of the Dwemer? Where are the ruins of the Marukhati Selectives? Based on this wiki's entry for the Marukhati Selectives, it would seem that they left neither artefact nor ruin of their own making.

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      Well, seeing as you put it that way, I'm saying that Xal holds with "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" and, whatever he might say about the Dwemer, for Xal to continue to hold with "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" he must be known for saying things which "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" can accept or he won't hold with them much longer, will he?

      Yes, and the Selectives have accepted the fact that the Dwemer knew how the universe worked.

      The rest is speculative. How do we know, for example, that this "group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" actually experimented with anything? Do we have to take their word for it? What on Nirn is "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists" doing with a Deep Elf (Xal) in their midst? And why would we believe that these Marukhati Selectives, "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists", would know anything about the universe much less believe that they could know more than the Dwemer who, incidently, proved their knowledge with the technology they produced? Where is the technology of the Marukhati Selectives and how does it exceed that of the Dwemer? Where are the ruins of the Marukhati Selectives? Based on this wiki's entry for the Marukhati Selectives, it would seem that they left neither artefact nor ruin of their own making.

      We know the Selectives did this from this book Where were you when the Dragon Broke?.

      The Emperor-Oversoul was able to partially comprehend what happened during the Middle Dawn and it knew the Marukhati Selective was responsible.

      “No one understands what happened when the Selectives danced on that tower. It would be easy to dismiss the whole matter as nonsense were it not for the Amulet of Kings."

      Also Mannimarco confirms it.

      "How do you think I learned my mystery? Marukh showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below.

      Other than this the longer version explains how the Selctives created the Middle Dawn.


      I think this should also be said;

      "Get me, Cyrodiil? When will you wake up and realize what really happened to the Dwarves?”  This is a line taken from the Khajiit excerpt of Where were you when the Dragon Broke? while the Khajiit was talking about Dragon Breaks. This is another implication of Bethesda that the Dwemer returned themselves to the Dawn.

      I don't get why it is so hard to believe that the Dwemer anti-created themselves. The Thalmor have a very similar goal.

      with a Deep Elf (Xal) in their midst?

      Xal is a human, not a Dwemer.

      And why would we believe that these Marukhati Selectives, "a group of power-maniacal anti-elven extremists", would know anything about the universe much less believe that they could know more than the Dwemer who, incidently, proved their knowledge with the technology they produced?

      Because they proved themselves?

      "the secret masters of the Maruhkati Selective channeled the Aurbis itself to mythically remove those aspects of the Dragon God they disapproved of. A staff or tower appeared before them. The secret masters danced on it until it writhed and trembled and spoke its protonymic."

      They spoke to god!

      Where is the technology of the Marukhati Selectives and how does it exceed that of the Dwemer? Where are the ruins of the Marukhati Selectives? Based on this wiki's entry for the Marukhati Selectives, it would seem that they left neither artefact nor ruin of their own making.

      The Marukhati Selective was an extremely secretive sect of the Alessian Order. It's not a suprise that they have left behind very little evidence of their existance.

      Hell, most of them may have actually Zero-Summed.

      P.S: Just about every word on the Marukhati Selective page was written by me.

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    • Thanks for the heads-up about Xal not being Dwemer. I probably got that mixed up with Yagrum Bagarn. That leaves the Marukhati Selective as a secret society who are labeled as a bunch of fanatics with a reputation which is not underpinned by verifiable evidence; much like the Thalmor having claimed to bring back the moons. The Thalmor did do their thing. The moons did come back. But "it ain't necessarily so." When considering the activities and effects of Selective, as a problem of evidence, this is only exacerbated by the fact that they were a secret society. That makes everything we hear about them suspect. For example, how can we know that the "fanaticism" of the Selective is not wanton vilification given that the sect is secretive and may choose to embrace whatever lies help it to keep its secrets?

      Where were you when the Dragon Broke? is a text written by various authors who were outside observers of the dragonbreaks - people who could and would interpret what they observed, or heard tell of, according to their own experience and beliefs. The bottom line of this text, BTW, is an "easter egg" reference to a very famous and well known concept of Hermeticism:

      "Marukh showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below." (which goes to my argument on the other thread that there is more than one point of view, in TES, concerning the "gods" and what they are or, for that matter, if they are.)

      However, Where were you when the Dragon Broke? documents, rather than facts known to have affected this timeline, a collection of hearsay taken across the many timelines of the Dragonbreak - all of it potentially true but not necessarily true of the specific timeline in which TES takes place. E.g.

      "According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars. According to Shor-El, Cyrodiil became an egg. Most say something in a language they can only speak sideways."

      Although the first two statements (above) can be true in the same 2-dimensional time domain, they cannot both be true in the same thread of 2-dimensional time. The last statement in the above quote is more than likely an ingame reference to the phenomenon of interpretation - which brings us back to the various authors of Where were you when the Dragon Broke? - who are people speaking through the preconceptions of their culture in its stage of historical development. It's definitely a mythological aspect of lore but it's not necessarily factual (and all good mythology is true in its themes rather than in its facts).

      There are a number of other texts mentioning the Marukhati Selective:

      Vindication for the Dragon Break

      ...the Tower

      Vehk's Teaching

      Final Report to Trebonius

      Where Were You When the Dragon Broke?: Longer Version (this is particularly interesting as it suggests that the Marakhuti Selectives achieved their ends by doctoring the evidence - which speaks to their character and the reliability of their testimony in the absence of verifiable facts.)

      All of this material strikes me as mythology, cosmology and interpretations thereof applied to an event none of the authors are equipped to understand. And that is what leaves us very much in the dark. Suffice it to say that it is conceivable that the Dwemer did use Numidium as a gateway to somewhere-else where, presumably, they could exist in peace. However, it is not admissible that a secret organisation did anything of the sort. By way of comparative example - take RSA encryption. The British secret service claimed to have developed this years before it's independent development and publication by academics. However, thanks to the Official Secrets Act, there is no accessible factual evidence by which the claim of the secret service can be made admissible - and so the credit duly belongs to the academics who can yield up hard evidence (being their seminal publication of this concept).

      If the effects of Marukhati Selective activities lack hard, factual evidence, then this alone renders them irrelevant to the unfolding of history by transforming them into an unnecessary entity in the explanation of that history. This is highly relevant because the most parsimonious explanation is always truest to the facts. Therein lies the inherent problem of all secret societies; other than their existance, assuming evidence for this exists, nothing else is admissible.

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    • One more thing: the whole oversoul vision of the tower dance and the tower's subsequent split into eight pieces strikes me as allegorical of the whole apotheoses of Talos.

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:

      Thanks for the heads-up about Xal not being Dwemer. I probably got that mixed up with Yagrum Bagarn. That leaves the Marukhati Selective as a secret society who are labeled as a bunch of fanatics with a reputation which is not underpinned by verifiable evidence; much like the Thalmor having claimed to bring back the moons. The Thalmor did do their thing. The moons did come back. But "it ain't necessarily so." When considering the activities and effects of Selective, as a problem of evidence, this is only exacerbated by the fact that they were a secret society. That makes everything we hear about them suspect. For example, how can we know that the "fanaticism" of the Selective is not wanton vilification given that the sect is secretive and may choose to embrace whatever lies help it to keep its secrets?

      Possibly, but don't forget these are the guys who wanted to remove a god because they couldn't accept the fact that he was a mirror-brother to Akatosh.

      Where were you when the Dragon Broke? is a text written by various authors who were outside observers of the dragonbreaks - people who could and would interpret what they observed, or heard tell of, according to their own experience and beliefs. The bottom line of this text, BTW, is an "easter egg" reference to a very famous and well known concept of Hermeticism:

      "Marukh showed us all the glories of the Dawn so that we might learn, simply: as above, so below." (which goes to my argument on the other thread that there is more than one point of view, in TES, concerning the "gods" and what they are or, for that matter, if they are.)

      Thanks for pointing this out, I've been having trouble trying to understand what those words were supposed to mean. Now I see, it is a reference to the fact that the TES universe is a series of subgradients. Now we know that the Marukhati Selective knew this; and what happens when the creation of these subgradients are reveresed. "Numidium".

      However, Where were you when the Dragon Broke? documents, rather than facts known to have affected this timeline, a collection of hearsay taken across the many timelines of the Dragonbreak - all of it potentially true but not necessarily true of the specific timeline in which TES takes place. E.g.

      "According to Hestra, Cyrodiil became an Empire across the stars. According to Shor-El, Cyrodiil became an egg. Most say something in a language they can only speak sideways."

      Although the first two statements (above) can be true in the same 2-dimensional time domain, they cannot both be true in the same thread of 2-dimensional time. The last statement in the above quote is more than likely an ingame reference to the phenomenon of interpretation - which brings us back to the various authors of Where were you when the Dragon Broke? - who are people speaking through the preconceptions of their culture in its stage of historical development. It's definitely a mythological aspect of lore but it's not necessarily factual (and all good mythology is true in its themes rather than in its facts).

      The varying stories of what happened during the Middle Dawn are probably the result of intertwining timelines mixed with the blatant incomprehensibility of the Dawn. The only constants were the falling of Eight stars and the moons.

      In my opinion this is a reflection of "The Scarab that Transforms into New Man", the Eight fall and the Scarab (Lorkhan) rises to become the New Man. The whole "egg" concept sort of supports this seeing as the "Exact-Egg-Cracking" is the Hist's version of the sixth Walking Way.

      All of this material strikes me as mythology, cosmology and interpretations thereof applied to an event none of the authors are equipped to understand. And that is what leaves us very much in the dark. Suffice it to say that it is conceivable that the Dwemer did use Numidium as a gateway to somewhere-else where, presumably, they could exist in peace. However, it is not admissible that a secret organisation did anything of the sort. By way of comparative example - take RSA encryption. The British secret service claimed to have developed this years before it's independent development and publication by academics. However, thanks to the Official Secrets Act, there is no accessible factual evidence by which the claim of the secret service can be made admissible - and so the credit duly belongs to the academics who can yield up hard evidence (being their seminal publication of this concept).</p>

      If the effects of

      Marukhati Selective activities lack hard, factual evidence, then this alone renders them irrelevant to the unfolding of history by transforming them into an unnecessary entity in the explanation of that history. This is highly relevant because the most parsimonious explanation is always truest to the facts. Therein lies the inherent problem of all secret societies; other than their existance, assuming evidence for this exists, nothing else is admissible.

      You're looking to far into this, don't forget this is a story and not everything needs to be questioned. There is a reason MK wrote the longer version and that is to explain the events surrounding the Middle Dawn, the story has no purpose otherwise.

      I feel like you should read this Xal-Gosleigh Letters

      This shows that the Marukhati Selective, Divayth Fyr, and the Psijic Order may have collaborated to find out what happened to the Dwemer.

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    • Thanks,Dovahsebrom, for the Xal-Gosleigh Letters link. I did notice the Kemel-Ze reference - although, strangely, the two correspondents seemed to avoid sharing academic specifics with each other. From experience, I know that it generally does not work that way - although the dispatch of a "demon from the east" does seem to allude to something which does happen when two friends with a shared viewpoint correspond about some controversy. However, that "demon from the east" usually takes the form of some fact or perspective which is entirely unanticipated by the other party to the controversy.

      The funny thing about good literature (which, in my world, includes good film and good games) is that you can read quite a lot into it because, whether intended or not, the constructs within the plot take on forms which the author has experienced in real life. For example, Tolkien points out, in the 1966 Foreword to the Second Edition of The Lord of the Rings, that, "As for any inner meaning or 'message', it has in the intention of the author none [...] neither allegorical nor topical" and yet he admits that "An author cannot of course remain wholly unaffected by experience." We can see in the work of Tolkien, for example, a strong counter-eugenics theme which emerges in the examples of "weak" characters without whom all would be lost. Although, taking Tolkien at his word that such "meaning or 'message'" is not intended, it has still become one of the most powerful themes of his work. Possibly the most explanatory example of the unintended theme comes to us by way of Tolkien's "Scouring of the Shire" which is, actually, the most important chapter of the entire series because it details the outcome at the pinnacle of everything written in the series from the notes which later became The Silmarillion through The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. Tolkien pointed out that "The Scouring of the Shire" did not reflect the situation in England at the time he was finishing his tale but, rather, that it was an essential part of the plot which was "foreseen from the outset". With or without Tolkien's commentary, I could not agree more because it was very much the expected conclusion of an epic saga which, throughout, incrementally built on the empowerment of the "weak". "The Scouring of the Shire" was, in The Silmarillion & The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings series, very much the cocoa in the chocolate. My point is that themes are often unintended artefacts of author experience and, if we can accept the uncertainty of author deliberation with respect to themes, we can get a great deal more from our reading of the literature.

      Likewise, when we treat other uncertainties for what they are which, not to belabour the point enough, is uncertain, then there is a lot more room left for what we can say about those details of which we can be certain. For example, we cannot say from the Xal-Gosleigh Letters whether either correspondant was particularly knowledgeable about the Dwemer but we can say, from Xal's repeated request, that there was certainly a perceived relevance to Kemel-Ze carried by the Adompha scroll. However, in view of Xal's description of a local event involving the folk, we cannot be certain whether that Adompha scroll bears this perceived relevance in the context of this event or in the context of the ruins for which Kemel-Ze is famous. This, in itself, carries a mystery which may be worth pursuing in ESO - but if we jump to conclusion ahead of the facts, the mystery can be lost and, along with it, the opportunity to benefit from investigating that mystery. This is not so much a matter of reading deeply into the lore but, on the contrary, limiting what we read into the lore to those things of which we can be certain.

      Effective reporting of folklore focuses on the facts and, so, presents us with what the narrative of the folk is, in context, rather than asserting it as some form of truth. The same can be said of reporting the opinions and conclusions of people thought to have expertise - if only because the history of various disciplines teaches us that such people are just as fallible as the folk. If you are interested, an excellent example of lore reporting and analysis is, in my opinion, offered by this article:

      Luciani, L., 2013, Borrowed, Not Fabricated: The Valley of 'Gesufa' in the Sicilian Prayer 'U Vebbu', Folklore, Vol. 124, pp. 270-288

      You don't have to write thousands of words, however, and the reason I'm citing this article as an example is because I think it shows what can be done by sticking to the facts and their direct inferences without reading much into things at all.

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    • OMG, that digression! If you want to talk about the dwemer dissapearing, aren't there already threads on it that this info can be more relevant???

      (admittedly the stuff written is cool, but theres a time and place for everything...)

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    • 218.186.253.113 wrote:
      OMG, that digression! If you want to talk about the dwemer dissapearing, aren't there already threads on it that this info can be more relevant???

      (admittedly the stuff written is cool, but theres a time and place for everything...)

      .

      I think all this started when I fronted the [rather] dangerous train of thought that, maybe,


      1. maybe the Falmer are betrayers rather than betrayed

      2. maybe the Falmer invaded the Dwemer domain as aggressors and were not taken as slaves

      3. maybe the Falmer invasion was, perhaps, a deeper and more practical reason why the Dwemer decided to leave; in a manner absolute

      Of course, all this is quite tenuous and there are a lot of in-game texts I need to look over again to see where the line between fact and opinon runs [in the context of TES world, that is].

      [Edits in square braces]

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    • No offense but this is what I think:

      Falmer=The Betrayers we all know what they did to the early humans when they noticed their strenght, what if they attacked the Dwemer who then punished and subued them by turning them into what they are today.

      There is no chance the Falmer could beat the Dwemer, I mean in all honastly the Dwemer are extremely powerfull with even better armour, weopans, and machine than the falmer. The Dwemer would have droven the race to true extinction, I think the Dwemer just didnt care about the ´´Rebellions´´ also the Chimer vs Dwemer was only in Morrowind, the skyrim dwemer are more like greeks with independent city states. The problem is the Dwemer didnt make the Red Mountain into a city, if they had it would have been undefeatable. One of there citys caused earthquakes to defend itself another went underwater. The Chimer overwhelmed the Dwemer, and when they leaders saw how they would die they did a selfish thing and payed the cosencuences.

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    • Sorry Im confused what were we origanlly talking about here? 

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    • This is a thread about the Falmer which, by its nature repeatedly digresses into discussion of the Dwemer - it's happened to me too - twice I think  :^)

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      This is a thread about the Falmer which, by its nature repeatedly digresses into discussion of the Dwemer - it's happened to me too - twice I think  :^)

      Well this whole thread originally started specifically with Vyrthur's vampiric infection and questions regarding Auri-El's relation to it. Obviously it eventually ties with the Falmer, directly or indirectly.

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    • Contributor 62 wrote:
      Smoking.Chimp wrote:
      This is a thread about the Falmer which, by its nature repeatedly digresses into discussion of the Dwemer - it's happened to me too - twice I think  :^)
      Well this whole thread originally started specifically with Vyrthur's vampiric infection and questions regarding Auri-El's relation to it. Obviously it eventually ties with the Falmer, directly or indirectly.

      Oh, yes! By that seemingly magic word; 'betrayed' - which leads to all sorts of relevance[-based] iniquities given that Vyrthur is a Snow Elf or Falmer (albeit without the problems of most of his race) and, after the Night of Tears, he has the gall to use the b-word. So, yes, one of the questions posed by the OP is directly connected with the subject of betrayal and its connection to the Falmer.

      [Edits in square braces]

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    • Did we get anywhere? I mean  we all made some intresting theories but lets face it... whenever the Dwemer are even indirectly involved we cant seem to agree and we all think about them in different ways.

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    • MaxicutTLC wrote:
      No offense but this is what I think:

      Falmer=The Betrayers we all know what they did to the early humans when they noticed their strenght, what if they attacked the Dwemer who then punished and subued them by turning them into what they are today.

      Why the Falmer attacked Saarthal still isn't known, but the most likely reason probably had to do with the Eye of Magnus. One source seems to put part of the blame on Dagon.

      There is no chance the Falmer could beat the Dwemer, I mean in all honastly the Dwemer are extremely powerfull with even better armour, weopans, and machine than the falmer. The Dwemer would have droven the race to true extinction, I think the Dwemer just didnt care about the ´´Rebellions´´ also the Chimer vs Dwemer was only in Morrowind, the skyrim dwemer are more like greeks with independent city states. The problem is the Dwemer didnt make the Red Mountain into a city, if they had it would have been undefeatable. One of there citys caused earthquakes to defend itself another went underwater. The Chimer overwhelmed the Dwemer, and when they leaders saw how they would die they did a selfish thing and payed the cosencuences.

      What Kagrenac did to the Heart of Lorkhan was definitely not a "we're not going to let you have the pleasure of killing us" scenario. The whole reason why the War of the First Council started was because of what Voryn Dagoth (Dagoth Ur) discovered what the Dwemer were doing, that being the building of Numidium (a potential threat to the entire world) and the use (or maybe even worship) of the Heart of Lorkhan to acheive their goals.

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    • MaxicutTLC wrote:
      Did we get anywhere? I mean  we all made some intresting theories but lets face it... whenever the Dwemer are even indirectly involved we cant seem to agree and we all think about them in different ways.

      .

      That's what makes the whole story of the ancient Dwemer so believable: the fact that its mystery is commensurate with its antiquity.   :^)

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    • Further to the continuing and repeated digression from the subject of the original post, I have posted the beginning of another thread under which these Dwemer Inquiries may be discussed:

      The Dwemer: An enduring mystery of The Elder Scrolls and yet another super thread

      without trampling a discussion of Auri-El and Vyrthur and related Falmer/Snow Elf issues - but, who knows; maybe, with a little luck, the Dwemer discussion over on the new thread might digress back to the Auri-El, Vyrthur, vampirism, betrayal and other Falmer-related issues   :^)

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    • Smoking.Chimp wrote:

      without trampling a discussion of Auri-El and Vyrthur and related Falmer/Snow Elf issues - but, who knows; maybe, with a little luck, the Dwemer discussion over on the new thread might digress back to the Auri-El, Vyrthur, vampirism, betrayal and other Falmer-related issues   :^)

      or to Jyggalag...

      Where is Jyggalag?

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    • I'm actually very sure that Auri-El betrayed Vyrthur. Remember that one of the things that Auri-El's alter does is cure vampirism withing the first three days. Vyrthur was the head of his religion and probably would have gotten to prayign the moment he was attacked by a vampire. Auri-El must have purposely betrayed him in order to not cure his infection and allow him to become a full vampire. Why this happened I have no idea, but Auri-El is also a version of Akatosh god of time. Maybe he believed this needed to happen for a positive outcome in the future?

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    • No you dont understand

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    • Or maybe Vyrthur didn't understand that this was supposed to happen. He could have misunderstood why it was allowed and just thought it was done out of being betrayed. :P

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    • Contributor 62 wrote:


      Smoking.Chimp wrote:

      without trampling a discussion of Auri-El and Vyrthur and related Falmer/Snow Elf issues - but, who knows; maybe, with a little luck, the Dwemer discussion over on the new thread might digress back to the Auri-El, Vyrthur, vampirism, betrayal and other Falmer-related issues   :^)

      or to Jyggalag...

      Where is Jyggalag?

      Jyggalag is Sheogorath. After The Shivering Isles, Jyggalag separated from Sheogorath and The Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath.

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    • MaxicutTLC wrote: No you dont understand

      I agree.

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    • Go Dawgs!!!!!! wrote:

      Contributor 62 wrote:


      Smoking.Chimp wrote:

      without trampling a discussion of Auri-El and Vyrthur and related Falmer/Snow Elf issues - but, who knows; maybe, with a little luck, the Dwemer discussion over on the new thread might digress back to the Auri-El, Vyrthur, vampirism, betrayal and other Falmer-related issues   :^)

      or to Jyggalag...

      Where is Jyggalag?

      Jyggalag is Sheogorath. After The Shivering Isles, Jyggalag separated from Sheogorath and The Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath.

      It was probably temporary

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote:
      Go Dawgs!!!!!! wrote:

      Contributor 62 wrote:


      Smoking.Chimp wrote:

      without trampling a discussion of Auri-El and Vyrthur and related Falmer/Snow Elf issues - but, who knows; maybe, with a little luck, the Dwemer discussion over on the new thread might digress back to the Auri-El, Vyrthur, vampirism, betrayal and other Falmer-related issues   :^)

      or to Jyggalag...

      Where is Jyggalag?

      Jyggalag is Sheogorath. After The Shivering Isles, Jyggalag separated from Sheogorath and The Hero of Kvatch became Sheogorath.
      It was probably temporary

      Yes but I was just playfully alluding to a Jyggalag-Dwemer relation theory that started to be questioned in that other thread that I linked to. And in that way also casually inviting any who wished to come in and opinate. Much like A Pimp Name Sheo left a door to his realm in Nirn casually inviting any worthy mortal to help him with the whole Jyggs problem :)

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    • Simple answer; Auri-El was a champion of the Elves during the Dawn Era, and left Mundus following the the defeat of Lorkhan so that his followers might learn how to escape the mortal plane. Auri-El didn't betray him because he was no longer active on Nirn to begin with.

      (Yes, I'm aware that it is commonly accepted that Auri-El is simply the elven name for Akatosh, but in my opinion there are several reasons to believe that they are not the same being. Namely, while Auri-El was a Champion of the Elves against Lorkhan and the races of men, Akatosh has acted on behalf of man and often against the elves time and time again. Furthermore, according to the Elves Auri-El left Mundus following the defeat of Lorkhan, while Akatosh has been active on Nirn even as recently as the Oblivion Crisis.

      Plus, we have a precedent for this situation. Until Skyrim, all in-game lore stated that Alduin was simply the Nordic name of Akatosh. This turned out to be wrong, obviously, as it was the result of Imperial Scholars acting on certain assumptions. Most likely, Auri-El was a major Aedra during the Dawn Era to whom the Aldmer eventually ascribed Akatosh's sphere and status because of his importance in their religion.)

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    • I think that Auri-El probably either tried but failed to cure Vyrthur, or just didn't care about him becoming infected, perhaps as a punishment for his big ego which I noticed when the DB and Serana confronted him.

      But to be honest, I just wish that if you had a high enough speech skill you could convince Vyrthur to get cured by Falion, or become a werewolf if the Dragonborn is in the Companions so that the Dragonborn could give him a Glenmoril Witch Head and take him to Ysgramor's Tomb.

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    • I say this because I SERIOUSLY don't enjoy having to kill one of the last 2 confirmed living Snow Elves in Tamriel, or even Nirn. I just wish that there was a mod for this...

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    • 222.153.6.114 wrote:
      I say this because I SERIOUSLY don't enjoy having to kill one of the last 2 confirmed living Snow Elves in Tamriel, or even Nirn.

      I just wish that there was a mod for this...

      play around forever without finishing the main questline. there ya go :p

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    • Contributor 62 wrote:
      222.153.6.114 wrote:
      I say this because I SERIOUSLY don't enjoy having to kill one of the last 2 confirmed living Snow Elves in Tamriel, or even Nirn.

      I just wish that there was a mod for this...

      play around forever without finishing the main questline. there ya go :p

      The ending is very unsastifying anyways.

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    • The ending is satisfying  that you get to kill harkon and become the leader of the vampires(if you joined) other wise you get to kill all the vampires there and keep serana :)

      222.153.6.114 wrote:

      But to be honest, I just wish that if you had a high enough speech skill you could convince Vyrthur to get cured by Falion, or become a werewolf if the Dragonborn is in the Companions so that the Dragonborn could give him a Glenmoril Witch Head and take him to Ysgramor's Tomb.

       

      That would have been cool imo :)

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    • Gods can not intervene too much in Mundas, because they risk waking the Godhead and ending the dream.

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    • Which Gods are you talking about, & evidence as well just because of the Gods I suspect your referencing...

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    • Sardeth42 wrote: Which Gods are you talking about, & evidence as well just because of the Gods I suspect your referencing...

      I am saying Numinduim is the strongest god, and Alduin is under him. The other gods, though deadric princes are a little more lenient on this, can't intervene on Mundas, because they may wake the godhead.

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    • Where's the evidence for Daedric Princes fearing waking the godhead?

      ...

      ???

      Every time I've seen someone mention that on say r/TESLore it's generally been ignored *cough*

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    • Sardeth42 wrote: Where's the evidence for Daedric Princes fearing waking the godhead?

      ...

      ???

      Every time I've seen someone mention that on say r/TESLore it's generally been ignored *cough*

      Every divine being except Alduin, Numinduim, and Lorkhan (past) fear waking the godhead. Daedric princes just do it less.

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    • ...that's not evidence.

      I'm asking for something by someone whose written officially in some capacity, or written something good, etc.

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    • Sardeth42 wrote:
      ...that's not evidence.

      I'm asking for something by someone whose written officially in some capacity, or written something good, etc.

      It is not true.

      "Why would such a creature want to wake up? Or even want to control the world? Why would it want to destroy anything?

      This is a misunderstanding of the Godhead's nature."

      -Kirkbride talking about the Godhead

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    • Thank you.

      PS: I wonder how many entities have CHIM anyway. Aside from 1. Which is all... (but irrelevant)

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    • Sardeth42 wrote: Thank you.

      PS: I wonder how many entities have CHIM anyway. Aside from 1. Which is all... (but irrelevant)

      At least 2. Vivec and Tiber. Others are thought as suspects, but not proven.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:

      Sardeth42 wrote:
      ...that's not evidence.

      I'm asking for something by someone whose written officially in some capacity, or written something good, etc.

      It is not true.

      "Why would such a creature want to wake up? Or even want to control the world? Why would it want to destroy anything?

      This is a misunderstanding of the Godhead's nature."

      -Kirkbride talking about the Godhead

      That is a misc. speaking from MK, who is debated to be canon or not. Half his works are hated, half are loved. I love most of what he puts out, but that isn't even in a lore piece. Just a dialog from him, himself.

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    • ...Which is ironic considering that if ignoring MK, (& therefore probalby any other community piece etc.) then Godhead is almost out of the question for people that follow that line of thought.

      I still don't see a noteworthy piece which points at the Daedra (more than 1 or 2) and says they have CHIM &/or fear waking the godhead. Or anythign else approaching any of those points.



      The aside from 1 bit was more referencing that technically; from the PoV; there is only one Dreamer; 2 CHIMsters are the same accept that they deny their oneness etc. But yes entirely. :)

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    • Sardeth42 wrote: ...Which is ironic considering that if ignoring MK, (& therefore probalby any other community piece etc.) then Godhead is almost out of the question for people that follow that line of thought.

      I still don't see a noteworthy piece which points at the Daedra (more than 1 or 2) and says they have CHIM &/or fear waking the godhead. Or anythign else approaching any of those points.



      The aside from 1 bit was more referencing that technically; from the PoV; there is only one Dreamer; 2 CHIMsters are the same accept that they deny their oneness etc. But yes entirely. :)

      Godhead is mentioned In-Game. MKs speakings there, are not. Also, even counting outside sources *which I do* there are areas in stories that mention he can wake. I simply can't find the source right now, seeing as there are hundreds of books to scroll through to find it.

      And Molag Baal revealed the secrets of CHIM to Vivec. He doesn't have CHIM, but he knows the secrets of it. Also, Anu is the godhead, as stated in stories like Loveletter from the 5th Era.

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    • "Godhead is mentioned In-Game." mentioned. it doesn't really explain much if someone is refusign to look at out of game stuff

      To focus on the point:

      Molag Bal is 1 in 16/17. Hardly indicative.

      & still no evidence that Daedric Princes fear waking Anu.

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    • Sardeth42 wrote: "Godhead is mentioned In-Game." mentioned. it doesn't really explain much if someone is refusign to look at out of game stuff

      To focus on the point:

      Molag Bal is 1 in 16/17. Hardly indicative.

      & still no evidence that Daedric Princes fear waking Anu.

      It is mentioned multiple times, from Morrowind to Skyrim. Also, if they DIDN'T fear waking the godhead, they would intervene a lot more. Take ESO and Oblivion as examples. They didn't have enough power to withstand the Argonians or High Elves, and the gods themselves had to wait until certain criterea were met before entering Tamriel. (And in ESO's case, not making it to Tamriel)

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    • ..................

      reference?

      Or maybe they have more interesting things to do (not really)? Besides they interfere a lot just on a small scale.

      Liminal Barrier mean anything to you?

      Other gods without agency blocking access to there toy no?

      And does aware of CHIM = having CHIM?

      Your making lots of statements...

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    • Sardeth42 wrote: ..................

      reference?

      Or maybe they have more interesting things to do (not really)? Besides they interfere a lot just on a small scale.

      Liminal Barrier mean anything to you?

      Other gods without agency blocking access to there toy no?

      And does aware of CHIM = having CHIM?

      Your making lots of statements...

      The evidence for that claim is the entire plot of the games. And as seen by Molag Bal and H.Mora, they both are aware of CHIM, but most likely do not have it. This is something we know, but need more details on in a future story.

      They can't do anything to major, or will wake the godhead. Akatosh couldn't send an avatar to aid until the Amulet of Kings was broken. Mehrunes couldn't come until after many strikes/portals. No other god was able to stop him. Much, much more, too.

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    • "They can't do anything to major, or will wake the godhead."

      Is a non sequitur.

      Maybe they can't do anything major normally because they don't want something else to happen.

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    • I've been reading this conversation and haven't seen Shawn provide anything that proves that any of the gods fear waking the Godhead.

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    • Proof Molag knows of CHIM http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_12

      Godhead can wake up, because it is the exact same as a Kalpa ending. The dream is ended and destroyed, and then a new one is dreamed.

      Both of these mention Kalpas http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragon_Break http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dawn_Era On further notes for Kalpas, the Hist Trees are from a previous Kalpa. This is another story about Kalpas, and how select things survived from the previous ones http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fight-one-eating-birth-dagon

      You posted a quote from MK, and so will I. According to MK :

      "To the close dreamers, don't forget the Amaranth. There *is* one step beyond CHIM, but you're right in that it is not godhood. It's the flowering of a statehood where the images you give birth to in your dream-- stolen (?) from first dreamer-- wakes up. Wails knowing free will. And begins to dream in the same way. Children of liberty without end, and then the music lives forever as a pirate radio tuned against the rules of Heaven and the vulgarities of Hell." (Taken from a blog by Enda Kenny)

      Also, feel free to interpret this as you will http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Et'Ada,_Eight_Aedra,_Eat_the_Dreamer

      Another quote from MK "CHIM came first, in the earliest studies of the Wheel and the structure of the Aurbis. It kind of birthed itself when I spun the Wheel and saw the "I", and that's when I knew where Lorkhan was going with all of this.

      The Amaranth first appeared in the Loveletter, which was a refining of my mythology and its natural "end point"." This literally states Amaranth is the literal end to the dream, and beginning of a new one.

      Now, You know for a fact that the Godhead can wake up The fact that Akatosh couldn't send an Avatar until the amulet was shattered Gods must find mortals to do most of their bidding (Sheogorath is pure unpredictable madness, from the Lorkhan-shaped hole) Gods always set major events in action but never pull them off alone and ect. work as semi-proof for the Gods fearing the Godhead until tomorrow afternoon, where I can work on finding more sources.

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    • ...Still don't see anything that gives a reason to why they would fear it.

      Everything else is tangential. Although I would dispute "Godhead can wake up, because it is the exact same as a Kalpa ending.". But ultimately that doesn't give any real reason why they would fear triggering it anyway.

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    • Sardeth42 wrote: ...Still don't see anything that gives a reason to why they would fear it.

      Everything else is tangential. Although I would dispute "Godhead can wake up, because it is the exact same as a Kalpa ending.". But ultimately that doesn't give any real reason why they would fear triggering it anyway.

      If a kalpa ends, everything is destroyed (unless they someone live through it, read the Eating birth of dagon), and the universe essentially restarts with changes. If the godhead wakes, the same thing occurs. Everything dies.

      INCLUDING the gods.

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    • "INCLUDING the gods." - really?

      Because Dagon wasn't destroyed so much as changed.

      Although his case is interesting considering there are at least 2 parts to it, Dagon & Alduin, Mehrunes the Razor.

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    • ShawnHowellsCP wrote:
      Proof Molag knows of CHIM http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_12Godhead can wake up, because it is the exact same as a Kalpa ending. The dream is ended and destroyed, and then a new one is dreamed.

      The Kalpa reseting is certainly not the godhead waking up. It is a natural process of the TES universe.

      Assume "The Dawn Era was the End of the Previous Kalpa. The new Kalpa begins with the first day of the Merethic Era."

      -World Eating 101 Kalpas begin back at the first day of the Merethic Era, meaning it is literally impossible for it to be a new dream.

      ShawnHowellsCP wrote:
      Both of these mention Kalpas

      http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dragon_Break http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Dawn_Era On further notes for Kalpas, the Hist Trees are from a previous Kalpa. This is another story about Kalpas, and how select things survived from the previous ones http://www.imperial-library.info/content/fight-one-eating-birth-dagon

      You posted a quote from MK, and so will I. According to MK :

      "To the close dreamers, don't forget the Amaranth. There *is* one step beyond CHIM, but you're right in that it is not godhood. It's the flowering of a statehood where the images you give birth to in your dream-- stolen (?) from first dreamer-- wakes up. Wails knowing free will. And begins to dream in the same way. Children of liberty without end, and then the music lives forever as a pirate radio tuned against the rules of Heaven and the vulgarities of Hell." (Taken from a blog by Enda Kenny)

      In that quote (which is from MK's posts by the way), the line which says to "wakes up" uses long dashes which, in a basic sense, are equivalent to parenthesis. It's merely stating that ideas from the previous dream are stolen. The sentence by itself would be "It's the flowering of a statehood where the images you give birth to in your dream wakes up".

      Also claiming this post by MK canon and his other referring to his intentions for the godhead aren't is contradictory.

      ShawnHowellsCP wrote:
      The Amaranth first appeared in the Loveletter, which was a refining of my mythology and its natural "end point"." This literally states Amaranth is the literal end to the dream, and beginning of a new one.

      Now, You know for a fact that the Godhead can wake up The fact that Akatosh couldn't send an Avatar until the amulet was shattered Gods must find mortals to do most of their bidding (Sheogorath is pure unpredictable madness, from the Lorkhan-shaped hole) Gods always set major events in action but never pull them off alone and ect. work as semi-proof for the Gods fearing the Godhead until tomorrow afternoon, where I can work on finding more sources.

      The Amaranth is not the end of the dream, it is a dream within a dream.

      Pure speculation.

      ShawnHowellsCP wrote:
      If a kalpa ends, everything is destroyed (unless they someone live through it, read the Eating birth of dagon), and the universe essentially restarts with changes. If the godhead wakes, the same thing occurs. Everything dies.

      INCLUDING the gods.

      As I said before the universe does not restart, it returns to the convention. Kalpa's ending do not kill gods, as dieties avoid the death of kalpas through the walkabout.

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    • ShawnCognitionCP
      ShawnCognitionCP removed this reply because:
      Not needed, moving thread
      18:04, November 2, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Interesting read, although i would like to say that Akatosh didn't really show up after the Amulet of Kings was destroyed it was actually Martin Septim turning into his avatar because he had dragon blood inside him and the AoK had power within it from when it was given the first time so i'm not sure if that's proof of anything in regards to gods not being able to intervene or fearing waking godhead up. I'm also pretty sure if the dragonborn was around during oblivion crisis he too could have morphed into Akatosh Avatar just as easily but not because it was Akatosh himself doing it, just because he was the dragonborn, had dragon soul and what not.

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    • StealthBlade98 wrote: Interesting read, although i would like to say that Akatosh didn't really show up after the Amulet of Kings was destroyed it was actually Martin Septim turning into his avatar because he had dragon blood inside him and the AoK had power within it from when it was given the first time so i'm not sure if that's proof of anything in regards to gods not being able to intervene or fearing waking godhead up. I'm also pretty sure if the dragonborn was around during oblivion crisis he too could have morphed into Akatosh Avatar just as easily but not because it was Akatosh himself doing it, just because he was the dragonborn, had dragon soul and what not.

      That's what I meant. An avatar. Though, I would assume that you would need some sort of permission for that, thus Akatosh "helping".

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    • dunno about that i mean he did meet all the requirements: had dragon blood and the last of the septims, i can't imagine he just invertening like that :|

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    • If merely getting vampirism makes him vengeful towards his god.

      He kind of proved he deserved the curse for his lack of faith.

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    • Amperial wrote:
      If the existence as a vampire (a creature of Molag Bal, nothing less) is a part of being worthy in the eyes of Auri-El, the existing tenets of the faith have to be seriously rethought. But who is to say you are wrong?

      Maybe the wheel has to turn again and we have to strike Akatosh (now revealed to be a face of Molag Bal) from the list of divines.

      Who is next?


      So you know how the difference between Aedra and Deadra is the Aedra sacrificed themselves to become Mundus, right? Think about this for a moment: Lorkhan tricked Deadra into sacrificing themselves to become Mundus, a process that was so unstoppable that it took Lorkhan with it. But the creation stories mention an architect, someone who laid the groundwork and the plane for which Mundus would grow by taking the power and bodies of the Deadra who were suckered into it.

      That someone is called Magnus, the being who at the last minute pulled out of the project as he saw what was going to happen to those involved. But he was not able to pull out unscathed, his power remaining in Mundus to form Magicka and the rules of Magic, which follow their own laws due to having an origin somewhat outside of Mundus. That someone would have to be a Deadra, and would still be alive, because they avoided being consumed in the process that claimed the others.

      In Oblivion, Mankar Camoran claims that Mundus was once a Plane of Oblivion to a certain Deadric Prince, and that he wants back what is rightfully his. Since the creation stories openly admit someone laid the groundwork for Mundus, it is entirely possible Camoran is not lying. However, that would mean...

      That is right, Mehrunes goddamn Dagon is Magnus, the only Deadra who escaped being consumed despite buying into the Mundus Plan, the one who created the original Plane of Oblivion that Mundus would be born into, and subsequently the origin of all magic.


      mic drop

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    • mic drop

      Also, to stay on topic, it is entirely possible that Akatosh, Aurel-Ei, whathaveyou's personality was consumed into Mundus by the time Vyrthur was being the main worshipper. There was just not enough of Aurel-Ei left to be aware of Vythur's condition. However, it is cannon that praying at an alter cures you of diseases regardless of who you are (unless you are a well known unrepentant criminal) which either means Vythur had done some kind of major crime shortly before, or was shirking some major duties for AT LEAST three days straight. It is also entirely possible that he got so wrapped up in his duties he forgot the most important and most basic one of all.

      No matter how you look at it, Vythur discovered the hard way he screwed up.

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    • On the surface it seems like a giant reference to Bram Stoker's Dracula. The OP's summarization is almost identical to Dracula's creation and motivation (feels betrayed by god, curses him, get's cursed in return, swears vengence etc).

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    • I can see Vyrthur's pain, but I still don't regret killing him.

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    • A FANDOM user
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