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  • On the quest Season Unending, the Imperials mention they want compensation from the Stormcloaks for the massacre in Karthwasten. They say they "spilled Nord blood", the very people they swear to protect. I'm curious as to what happened... Anyone have any idea?

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    • There is no lore on it as the only time it is mentioned is during the Season Unending Quest. I wish they did at least have some dialogue in Karthwasten explaining what had happened, maybe explain why the town is so damn small.

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    • Yeah... plus the Headless Rider appears around there and they never say why the hell he lost his head and became a ghost... maybe it's all connected or something... Argh! Mysteries like these drive me crazy.

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    • I always thought the Horseman was more around the Rorikstead area, implying that he was Ragnar the Red.

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    • Oh yeah... although I saw the Horseman at the end of the bridge once. But yeah it makes sense that it's Ragnar.

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    • Guys. The Horseman is generated somewhere, anywhere in Skyrim during 10PM-4AM ingame hours. It isnt implied he's anyone, one time I saw him near Whiterun, another time in Dragon Bridge, another near Morthal.

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    • Oh, i just realized something. The way the soldiers speak about it, it seems the Stormcloaks have raided a Legion camp around Karthwasten, which, of course, had Nord soldiers based on (the entire war is Nord vs Nord). The Stormcloaks may have used guerilla tactics or greatly outnumbered the Imperials, so the soldiers call it a massacre.

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    • Alot of people don't know this but you can also accuse the imperials of the massacre...

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    • I swear I heard someone say the forsworn attacked Karthwasten at some point.

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    • 92.13.116.74 wrote:
      I swear I heard someone say the forsworn attacked Karthwasten at some point.

      That might just be it!

      "The Silver-Bloods are trying to muscle in on my land. Forsworn attack the mines, and suddenly all these sellswords show up to help.".

      -Ainethach

      "Forsworn attacked a while back. Jarl had no men to spare, so the Silver-Bloods generously offered to send us to clean things up."

      -Atar

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    • Now we don't know if it's Stormcloaks, or Forsworn.

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    • It was the Forsworn.

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    • So the Stormcloaks are just greatly confused, and unorganized. Like usual.

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    • 97.90.194.178 wrote:
      So the Stormcloaks are just greatly confused, and unorganized. Like usual.

      Why?

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    • Don't the Stormcloaks always seem a bit over-estimated, and confused? 

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    • 97.90.194.178 wrote:
      Don't the Stormcloaks always seem a bit over-estimated, and confused? 

      Not really

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    • The Stormcloaks don't understand that if they win, they Thalmor could just crush them. 

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    • 97.90.194.178 wrote:
      The Stormcloaks don't understand that if they win, they Thalmor could just crush them. 

      No, they just think that they will crush the Thalmor.

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    • They think they wil win.

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    • 97.90.194.178 wrote:
      They think they wil win.

      Yah, that is what I said...

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      97.90.194.178 wrote:
      They think they wil win.
      Yah, that is what I said...

      Yah, they don't understand.

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    • 97.90.194.178 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      97.90.194.178 wrote:
      They think they wil win.
      Yah, that is what I said...
      Yah, they don't understand.

      they can without a doubt crush the thalmor within skyrim, so I don't see how they're wrong

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    • 97.90.194.178 wrote:
      The Stormcloaks don't understand that if they win, they Thalmor could just crush them. 

      Thats wrong actually, if the thalmor can crush the imperials and the stormcloaks cna beat the imperials, then i think they can beat the thalmor, but not on a offensive note. they would get wrecked if they went to the summerset isle

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    • Pink Slim wrote:

      97.90.194.178 wrote:
      Dovahsebrom wrote:
      97.90.194.178 wrote:
      They think they wil win.
      Yah, that is what I said...
      Yah, they don't understand.

      they can without a doubt crush the thalmor within skyrim, so I don't see how they're wrong

      Yes but those are Thalmor in small numbers. Also, I did a little test with console commands and spawned a bunch of Thalmor and a bunch of Stormcloaks, the Thalmor beat the Stormcloaks.

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    • TheDwemerSpy wrote:

      Pink Slim wrote: they can without a doubt crush the thalmor within skyrim, so I don't see how they're wrong

      Yes but those are Thalmor in small numbers. Also, I did a little test with console commands and spawned a bunch of Thalmor and a bunch of Stormcloaks, the Thalmor beat the Stormcloaks.

      yes, they are in small numbers, because they only have small numbers, now if they were to send an entire army to Skyrim they'd have to literally march through the empire, or sail around the entire continent.

      if they go through the land route they'll never get to skyrim, do you expect the empire is going to let the Aldmeri Dominion march thousands of troops through the heart of the empire? if they did bring an army that close to the border it would spell war. at best they might conquer Cyrodiil again, but at such a slow pace and with such heavy losses that Skyrim wouldn't have much trouble wiping them off the map. Remember, it took the AD's full forces just to take the imperial city, which is accessible from every direction, and the entire war lasted around seven years(I believe)

      if they go by sea, they have two options:

      • option A: the western route, go around Hammerfell and Highrock, the fastest route to get to skyrim, the only problem is that they have no place they could safely dock and resupply, and if they did Skyrim would easily catch wind of an armada of AD ships going around Highrock/Hammerfell, plus the ships of roving pirates, I doubt they'd attack the Aldmeri ships, but they can sell information to Skyrim(number of ships, the size, distance, etc.) Skyrim would catch wind of this and they will be prepaired to fend off the (most likely)malnurished Aldmeri troops that haven't set foot on land in months.
      • option B: the eastern route, this route is much longer indeed, so you'd think that taking this route would be safer if it's a viable alternative correct? well that all depends on the locals. you see, the AD is not hostile towards either Blackmarsh or Morrowind, so they can most likely resupply here, but that might be where the problems lie for them. as you should know, the argonians don't take kindly to strangers in their lands, especially armed strangers that might attack them, one wrong move and the island nation has just lost all their ships and sailors to a couple hundred lizard people they just angered. now if they make it past the argonians, without incurring their wrath, they can resupply in Morrowind. now what do we know about the Dunmer, that's right, they have NEVER been on good standing with outsiders. now what else do we know about them? well they have always had a bit of a rivalry with their cousins from the Isles. While I don't expect the Dunmer to fight the AD, they will if pushed; another thing to note is that the Dunmer and the Nords aren't exactly friends, but they aren't enemies either, and recently Skyrim has shown some kindness to the Dunmer, so it wouldn't be too out of character for someone to warn Skyrim, if they don't alredy know. NOW, what else is there if they can make it past the dunmer as well? raining ash and stone from the Red Mountain, plus the boiling waters around the island.


      here's the thing, if they do any of those things, their forces will not be able to protect them from their other enemies. they go by the sea to the east, they're attacked by The Empire and Hammerfell. They take the Sea to the west, The Empire preoccupies their borders and Hammerfell will swoop in and take the Isles. They go by land, they start a full scale war against the empire, Hammerfell joins in and if they manage to conquer Cyrodiil they have a full force Skyrim waiting to tear the AD a new one. 

      If the Stormcloaks take Skyrim, the AD is in a postion where they have to leave skyrim to their own, or start a full scale war from all sides.

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    • Alright... You make a good point

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    • I know it's a large post, but when a large portion of the people who are against the Stormcloaks are against them "only because if they win the thalmor can easily take over Skyrim" you have to point out that they're probably wrong.

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    • I would just like to compare the trips the empires of Europe (Britsh, Spanish, French, etc.) took to the New World when it was discovered and the trips the Thalmor would take to Skyrim. I'm not saying you're wrong or that the trips the Europeans took to the New World were pleasent but just compare.

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    • Skyrim is the North Pole in real life comparison and Thalmor land is like...

      Madagascar.

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    • Atmora is more like the North Pole, Skyrim is more like Russia or Canada

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    • TheDwemerSpy wrote: I would just like to compare the trips the empires of Europe (Britsh, Spanish, French, etc.) took to the New World when it was discovered and the trips the Thalmor would take to Skyrim. I'm not saying you're wrong or that the trips the Europeans took to the New World were pleasent but just compare.

      The Europeans got all the supplies needed and sailed to the New World, some died but most made it to the Americas. Since the Aldmeri Dominion is extremely powerful, they would be able to get the supplies needed and not stop to resupply and I doubt that many would die since there are healing potions and spells. I think that a Aldmer invasion of Skyrim could be a successful one.

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    • 24.193.16.121 wrote:

      TheDwemerSpy wrote: I would just like to compare the trips the empires of Europe (Britsh, Spanish, French, etc.) took to the New World when it was discovered and the trips the Thalmor would take to Skyrim. I'm not saying you're wrong or that the trips the Europeans took to the New World were pleasent but just compare.

      The Europeans got all the supplies needed and sailed to the New World, some died but most made it to the Americas. Since the Aldmeri Dominion is extremely powerful, they would be able to get the supplies needed and not stop to resupply and I doubt that many would die since there are healing potions and spells. I think that a Aldmer invasion of Skyrim could be a successful one.

      but there are still problems the British didn't face that the Dominion would:

      The Dominion ships are very likely to be spotted on their way to Skyrim, which would lead to Skyrim finding out weeks/months in advance that they will be attacked from the sea, giving them much more time to prepare for a naval assault.

      Another problem would have to be that The British had many people within The New World that wanted to remain a part of The British Empire, nobody north of The Summerset Isles wants to be a part of the Aldmeri Dominion, not even the other members of the aldmeri dominion.

      The American Rebel Forces comprised of somewhat small numbers, the British were also being attacked by the French and others, and America would not have been able to win the war without their help. Skyrim has large numbers, even after this Civil War they should have large numbers. Besides that Hammerfell will almost doubtless help Skyrim, Highrock will too if it secceds from the empire, and Cyrodiil will likely take the opportunity to attack The AD while their defenses are lowered.

      The AD doesn't have the luxury to send all their troops to the enemy territory, they have way too many enemies waiting for them to lower their defenses, and besides those already in the Aldmeri Dominion, they don't have any allies, hell even their allies are their enemies.

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    • But yet you fail to realize that the Thalmor are already in Skyrim, secretly they are pulling the strings of war and politics in the Empire and even in Hammerfell which makes it easier for the Dominion to invade. Plus, the Dominion could avoid being spotted by enemies and leave Skyrim unaware of the invasion. Also, Cyrodiil can't afford to invade the Dominion, High Rock is still too divided to become a real threat to the Thalmor and it seems like both High Rock and the Dominion don't care about each other at the moment, and, while it may not seem like it, Hammerfell also can't afford to invade the Dominion, they may have brought the Dominion to a standstill in the War but it is clear that the Dominion did not waste much troops in the war against the Dominion.

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    • I fail to see how one could possible conceal an army of ships well enough to prevent them from being seen on the massively long voyage to Skyrim.

      Also, I think that if the Dominion were to invade anybody following the rebellion, it wouldn't be Skyrim. The plot they have set up is not meant to weaken skyrim as much as it is mean to weaken the empire as a whole by delaying the formidable reinforcements Skyrim would send to help fight the Dominion. Rather, they would most likely invade somewhere much closer to Summerset Isle, allowing them a greater chance of catching the defenders off guard due to the shorter time spent travelling and thus gain the advantage, but also allowing rapid redeployment of their forces should the need arise. Attacking Skyrim would indeed leave the Dominion open to attack, and they most likely know this.

      Ultimately, the plot to weaken the empire by causing Skyrim to split from the empire would probably only delay Skyrim's forces for a few months. The warrior people of the land would almost certainly not stand idly by when war breaks out, and absolutely not when such an outstanding opportunity to fight their hated enemies has practically been shoved down their throats. Soon enough, crys of "FOR SKYRIM!" would echoe across the battlefield, and the Sons and Daughters of Skyrim unleash vengeance upon their oppressors.

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    • TheDwemerSpy wrote:
      But yet you fail to realize that the Thalmor are already in Skyrim, secretly they are pulling the strings of war and politics in the Empire and even in Hammerfell which makes it easier for the Dominion to invade. Plus, the Dominion could avoid being spotted by enemies and leave Skyrim unaware of the invasion. Also, Cyrodiil can't afford to invade the Dominion, High Rock is still too divided to become a real threat to the Thalmor and it seems like both High Rock and the Dominion don't care about each other at the moment, and, while it may not seem like it, Hammerfell also can't afford to invade the Dominion, they may have brought the Dominion to a standstill in the War but it is clear that the Dominion did not waste much troops in the war against the Dominion.

      Oh wow, three days, sorry, I didn't get the notification.

      while the thalmor are in skyrim, they are protected by the empire(ex: as soon as Markarth is handed to the stormcloaks Ondolemar is dead, they kill the chief Justicar because he's no longer protected) without the protection afforded to them by the empire they will have to beg for their lives if they want to see the summerset Isles again, and that's if the Stormcloaks feel like forgiving them, they are severely outnumbered and they have two headquarters, both of them are known to the local governments.

      Hammerfell is staunchly opposed to the Aldmer Dominion, and they are known to have many pirates, a single one of those pirates spots that armada of Aldmeri Ships and they know they can screw the AD and make themselves rich by moving that information. sure they can keep their ships so far out that no ship would ever spot them, but that will only make the trip longer and harder, they'll need even more food, meaning less room for soldiers, and many will still die, that means they will need even more ships to move the soldiers.

      You're right about hammerfell and the AD, they fought to a standstill, this was done by mostly untrained fighters, I would have to assume that since that time Hammerfell has been able to amass a standing army of trained soldiers.

      As for Cyrodiil, they might not be able to fight off the entirety of the Aldmeri Dominion armies, but that's why they'd attack after the AD troops have left to fight Skyrim.

      and Highrock, well it's tough to say anything about Highrock with how little information we have about Highrock since the war, I'd assume that if they stay with the empire they'd help Cyrodiil defend/attack the AD in Vallenwood/Ellswyr, if they seperate and form an alliance with skyrim or hammerfell they will almost definetly help skyrim/hammerfell. but as we don't know much about their current political alignments it's hard to say what they would do.

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    • Question!!

      Why do You all think that Dominion would attack Skyrim?

      Why bother when Ulfric does exacly what they want, that is slowly bleeding out Skyrim legion? A legion that hit them hard in retake of Imperial City. 

      Wouldn't they just pose another extorting demand on Empire, like they did when Hammerfell declined putting down arms after Great War? So that Empire would disown Skyrim (sorry for that word, I'm still looking for more accurate one). That would make more bad blood between Nords and Imperials and Empire would lose one of its strongest allies, leaving only High Rock and Cyrodill to deal with another war. HR is quite disorganised for now (more like as always) with good strategy Dominium could take down Cyrodill and reinfoce itself in there. Natural borders of Cyrodill are nothing to laugh at. With mainland secured, taking down other prowinces would be a lot easier. Like certain Thalmor in Markhat likes to said: One century at a time. Remember that mer live longer than man. They can strech their plan to hundreds of years into the future, so not everyone will even notice whats going on. And peaople can be bought...

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    • No matter what, Dovahkiin now has a fair amount of dragons willing to fight for him since he demonstrated his was the most powerful thu'um. Maybe not Paarthurnax, but definitely Odahviin and those other dozen dragons flying about the Throat of the World during the Epilogue.

      If Dovahkiin sided with the Stormcloaks and got Ulfric to be the High King, he's likely to be 3rd if not 2nd in line (after Galmar) for the throne, since Ulfric seems to really respect and like Dovahkiin at the end of the Civil War.

      But regardless of which side Dovahkiin chooses, that side now has a LOT of dragons. There is no way the Thalmor (a small portion of the population even in the Summerset Isles themselves) could conquer Skyrim OR Cyrodiil or any other "province" (are they countries?) if they were facing at least a dozen dragons, ALONG with Dovahkiin.

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    • Wow. That's great strategy there.....let's attack the Isles with this army of dragons.....hmm come to think of it that is a great strategy the Aldmeri Dominion would sh1t their pants.

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    • Wait! How did this go from the Karthwasten massacre to how the thalmor would epicly fail at invadeing Skyrim after the civil war?

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    • Good question.  I have absolutely no idea.

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    • The Karthwasten Massacre seems concurrent with Ulfric's actions outlined in the Bear of Markarth. I suppose some people might call out the book for being biased due to it being written by an Imperial (yet texts written by Nords are obviously so much more valid, it is not as if Imperial texts were once well regarded before this whole Civil War debacle) but it does appear to fit, I suppose, and is not exactly contradictory to Ulfric's attitude, particularly towards the Reachmen, and generally anyone who opposes him. 

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    • As I said previously on this thread.

      "The Silver-Bloods are trying to muscle in on my land. Forsworn attack the mines, and suddenly all these sellswords show up to help.".

      -Ainethach

      "Forsworn attacked a while back. Jarl had no men to spare, so the Silver-Bloods generously offered to send us to clean things up."

      -Atar

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    • OK. But that doesn't mean the Forsworn were involved in the Karthwasten Massacre, for all we know the Forsworn attacked after the Massacre, or even before.

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    • My point is that literally the only evidence of a massacre at Karthwasten is this attack.

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    • There's no evidence for a massacre anywhere. I'm pretty sure it's just a random script that's bugged in the way it's programed to always pick Karthwasten for the Imperials to demad payment for. If you're an Imperial, it's not even mentioned. 

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    • Br3admax wrote:
      There's no evidence for a massacre anywhere. I'm pretty sure it's just a random script that's bugged in the way it's programed to always pick Karthwasten for the Imperials to demad payment for. If you're an Imperial, it's not even mentioned. 

      This is true, if you look at the dialogue, both sides were able to claim that the other committed a massacre in a variety of different towns.

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    • Harkon Romney
      Harkon Romney removed this reply because:
      Flame war... Nuff said.
      21:10, August 10, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Knew this would turn into a Flame war (Sigh).

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    • How a speculation thread devolved into a flame war is beyond me.

      • facepalm
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    • A facepalm! Is that the sound of one hand clapping that I can hear?   :^)

      On a serious note, please do no forget that lies are the first and most important weapons of war. You can't always have more men, better technology, or a superior position and telling effective lies via a variety of, often, non-verbal methods (e.g. the walking forest scene in Macbeth) is how the scoreboard is evened up (and yes, telling lies is always an act of war). Never forget that the person who lies to you today is ready to kill you tomorrow because he or she doesn't consider you an equal and, thereby, does not place any value on your life as your life. After all, the goal of deception is to rob another person of the ability to make an informed choice.  This has a lot to do with why propaganda (known as "Jingo" back in the late Nineteenth Century) is the rule rather than the exception in war; particularly civil war. One side makes up lies about the other to suppress any empathy or sympathy their own soldiers may feel for the enemy. This is usually done for the express purpose of making the soldiers less likely to refuse orders involving activities which may be considered war crimes. Frank Herbert showcases, in his Dune trilogy, a prime example of the same type of propaganda which has made an appearance in so many wars that it has become a cliche. Anyone for a little game of catch the baby on a bayonet?

      So, returning to the subject of the OP, in the absence of a mass grave and independent corroboration by civilian witnesses who are no longer in a position to be threatened by parties to the conflict (whether directly or indirectly) then the "Karthwasten Massacre" can be safely assumed to be a bald-faced lie on the part of an officer who is planning to order his men to commit some kind of war crime or atrocity. The lack of lore concerning this alleged incident confirms a lack of civilian corroboration which strengthens the case that it is, indeed, propaganda.

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    • do not know if this was mentioned but you guys do know that it was the AD started the war there are a few quests and a few notes on bodies that say they the AD want this rebellan to happen.

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    • I love the smell of derailing in the morning!

      well, might aswell add this to the AD vs SC debate:

      Hammerfell seceeded from the empire and they were attacked by the AD who proceeded to get their asses handed to them on a silver platter. Redguards might be better warriors than Nords, but Skyrim has a lot of natural defenses, with literally only one viable entrance for a military unit, and that would require them to go through imperial controlled lands.

      Firstly: While a coastal approach seems viable, the Sea of Ghosts is far too treacherous for battleships to get through, it takes a Nord captain who has spent years navigating the sea to get to solstheim safely on a canoe, I doubt a high elf who has never been in the SoG to be able to navigate the icefloes and icebergs safely with a battleship.

      Secondly: Skyrim is literally surrounded by mountains on all sides, there are a total of 4 land entrances, 3 of which are large enough to permit a military unit through but only one is even remotely viable.

      the first location is in haafingar to the west, connected to High Rock, this would require the Thalmor to either go through Hammerfell (likely violating their treaty) or anchor their ships in High Rock which would mean supplies and reinforcements would take very long to reach their forces and constantly run the risk of pirates.

      Next is in eastmarch connected to the northern side of Morrowind. While largely uninhabited currently, it's like that for a reason. Few dare to travel through morrowind after the Red year due to the danger.

      Lastly is in the Rift, a very small opening connected to southern Morrowind. This is the safest and frankly only viable entrance for an invading force unfamiliar with the SoG. However, this entrance is very easily blocked off and very easily ambushed, whichever the Nords prefer. Also there would be a very long time waiting on supplies and reinforcements. They also would not have to declare war on the empire since Morrowind is mostly uninhabited and likely not viewed as sovereign territory.

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    • 50.176.158.12 wrote:
      97.90.194.178 wrote:
      The Stormcloaks don't understand that if they win, they Thalmor could just crush them. 
      Thats wrong actually, if the thalmor can crush the imperials and the stormcloaks cna beat the imperials, then i think they can beat the thalmor, but not on a offensive note. they would get wrecked if they went to the summerset isle

      The Stormcloaks are fighting *one* out of about 20 Legions the Empire has.

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    • There is a chance there was no massacre at all, and Tullius invented this, to get something in exchange for Markarth, besides the town of choice.

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    • I noticed people turned the propeganda thing on tulius, but don't forget how Ulfric likes to throw around the label "true sons of Skyrim," which allows him to justify just about any murder, any warcrime - even those against his fellow nords - to his followers by simply claiming they weren't true sons of Skyrim because they disagreed with him.

      Also worth mentioning is that the Thalmor would have a much better chance at conquering Cyrodiil not only because the Empire would have lost reinforcements from Skyrim, but also, no matter how many Legions the empire has, it wasn't enough to defeat the Thalmor the first time around, and If Ulfric wins that's still an entire legion the empire no longer has. Meanwhile the Thalmor would only lose spareable emissaries. Once Cyrodiil is taken, taking Skyrim seems much more possible.

      Not to mention that if Ulfrick wins that everyone that isn't a nord in Skyrim would, at the very best, be deported. Skyrim would resemble 1930-40s America with "Nord only" plastered across everything, everyone else being allowed access to the most rambshable and overpriced of every basic necessity to life, hell, knowing Ulfrick there'd probably be abhorrent taxes just for not being a Nord.

      But back to the negotiations, can I just mention what a brat Ulfric is during them? Like, the whole point is to say "everyone chill for a bit while I go and work on stopping the end of the world." then Ulfric - the one who would more readily understand whats going on, because it's his culture, as well as he studied the thu'um - goes "not unless I get my way" like, boy if you don't sit down with yo spoiled, privalged little ahs, actin like a fu'in 4 year old, fu'in Caiollu actin lil punk ahs bih, Imma let this dam dragon eat you, you keep this shih up.

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    • I am rather annoyed with this 'Karthwasten massacre' thing. It just gets tossed at you without any prior knowledge of it or anything solid being supplied, yet you're expected to tell two disgruntled parties how much one must compensate the other in the interest of a peace neither wants both remain at large. All we know for sure is that one side aledgedly butchered the other and some townspeople.

      I have to wonder though, after reading the above mentions of Foresworn if they might be responsible for both the dead townfolk and the misinformation both factions have. The Empire is supposed to be fighting for the people against a rebel group, and the Stormcloaks are supposed to be fighting for the freedom of the people from a morally weak rulling state, no? Neither would kill bystanders intentionally, which is what the term 'massacre' implies.

      Therefore... I propose that the two sides indeed fought each other over the town to the point that the Foresworn saw it well within their ability to capitalise on the situation to strike another blow against these invading factions.

      We know well enough how the Foresworn behave. I see it quite plausible that they picked off many of the surviving soldiers - of either or both factions - and butchered the townspeople. They would have been too pleased with themselves to care that both the Empire and Stormcloaks blame each other for the massacre. If they did care - in the planning or in the aftermath - it could only serve the Foresworn better if the attention was off them, allowing them too continue reclaiming the Reach without added Imperial or Stormcloak attention until one side overcomes the other and decided to do something about them.

      Now I'll readily admit im not the most aware of TES lore, but with the topic I type of being localised to Skyrim alone I feel confident this is a viable answer to the question of 'what Karthwasten massacre?' (as if it was asked) to put it here. Bear this in mind when you shred my proposal with your lore-brains, please.

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    • believe that yes the Aldmeri Dominion would not be happy with this so would attack skyrim. Now the route that makes the most sense is a land route as it's easier to remain strong and keep moral as it isn't a massive voyage. So by this logic a March through the empire makes sense. The one issue people brought up from that is that the empire would attack these troops to stop them from getting to skyrim. However the empire has withdrawn from skyrim after the general is killed and so probably would have an issue with the AD taking it, and then you have the point about the White Gold Concordat where the empire was brought to its knees by the ad which is why they had to sign the treaty in the first place so the AD would just have to threaten a re-ignition of the great war and none of the empire want that, so they would let the AD through to skyrim.
      
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    • 1:it seems to me that regardless of who win the civil war the empire is on its last legs. the septim dynasty has ended. the empire is opressing its own people so it can delay and inevitable war. they are losing control of their surrounding territories one by one. even if they win the war the tensions in skyrim wont have gone away. in fact while the empire is fighting the dominion in the second war whats keeping the nords from taking skyrim while the legions are fighting in cyrodil? and if the dominion conquers the empire they will opress and kill the humans and the humans will rebel. regardless of who wins the final result i see in a fractured tamriel with each province ruling itself.

      2: you have suggested 2 ways for the dominion to enter skyrim, by either sea or land. well the dominion is basically ruled by powerful wizards, is there anything stopping them from opening a portal that connects skyrim with valenwood. a few conjurers could open a gate to oblivion and let things pass through in ESOblivion. in which case the dominion would definately win. however i dont think the dominion cares at all about skyrim they are focused on cyrodill, so i dont see them even trying to conquer skyrim until after they take cyrodill.

      3: all the empire needs to do to win the war is convince the khajiit that it was the dominion who removed the moons from the sky in the first place (which is probably true) and that they have been fooled into serving the dominion. they do that and valenwood is surrounded and the dominion is on the defsive instead of the empire.

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    • Stendarr God of Justice & Mercy wrote:
      Guys. The Horseman is generated somewhere, anywhere in Skyrim during 10PM-4AM ingame hours. It isnt implied he's anyone, one time I saw him near Whiterun, another time in Dragon Bridge, another near Morthal.


      Follow him. He always comes to roost in Rorikstead.

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    • Dovahsebrom wrote:
      97.90.194.178 wrote:
      The Stormcloaks don't understand that if they win, they Thalmor could just crush them. 
      No, they just think that they will crush the Thalmor.


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    • I just recently began playing the game with mods and such. Turns out the Karthwasten Massacre is a Stormcloak vs Forsworn event. Ironically stormcloaks were the aggressors. You discover this in Cidhna Mine conspiracy mission, the whole "free Talos worship", to oppose of the Forsworn old and Daedra gods. So during the event of Ulfric ruiling Markarth, they also had to ensure all citizens were protected in all parts of the Reach. But Ulfric and stormcloaks only caring for the "true sons of skyrim" you can guess what transpires. After talking to a couple of inmates, you learn a father lost his daughter to the nords, Families got butchered  etc. The Forsworn in Karthwasten were massacred but you may notice when you visit Karthwastem, the natives there are not the crazy forsworn living in the hills raiding and getting their hearts torn out and reshapen through a goat. They are just simple native forsworn miners who support the empire and want a peaceful life. During Ulfric's reign, you have purges made by nords.  You can talk to Jarl Igmund, he will also give you more info about what transpired after in the "Markarth Incident". But just that alone, explains why the Forsworn are so hell bent on retaking the reach. This also explains about Rikke calling out Ulfric for going against the people he had "sworn to protect". She is referring to Ulfric only caring for Nords of the reach, and completly forgetting the natives. So that is the massacre of Karthwasten.

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    • Aaronsahota wrote:
      I just recently began playing the game with mods and such. Turns out the Karthwasten Massacre is a Stormcloak vs Forsworn event. Ironically stormcloaks were the aggressors. You discover this in Cidhna Mine conspiracy mission, the whole "free Talos worship", to oppose of the Forsworn old and Daedra gods. So during the event of Ulfric ruiling Markarth, they also had to ensure all citizens were protected in all parts of the Reach. But Ulfric and stormcloaks only caring for the "true sons of skyrim" you can guess what transpires. After talking to a couple of inmates, you learn a father lost his daughter to the nords, Families got butchered  etc. The Forsworn in Karthwasten were massacred but you may notice when you visit Karthwastem, the natives there are not the crazy forsworn living in the hills raiding and getting their hearts torn out and reshapen through a goat. They are just simple native forsworn miners who support the empire and want a peaceful life. During Ulfric's reign, you have purges made by nords.  You can talk to Jarl Igmund, he will also give you more info about what transpired after in the "Markarth Incident". But just that alone, explains why the Forsworn are so hell bent on retaking the reach. This also explains about Rikke calling out Ulfric for going against the people he had "sworn to protect". She is referring to Ulfric only caring for Nords of the reach, and completly forgetting the natives. So that is the massacre of Karthwasten.


      But who said this? I mean where is it in the mission, if the forsworn say it that's not necessary more believable.

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    • I'm pretty sure that the "Karthwasten Massacre" was the Markarth Incident or a final stage of the confict between the Foresworn and the Nords there. Apprently all Bretons who sorroundered but had fought as Foresworn had been killed or imprisoned. Nords who did not assist Ulfric or the Markarth Royal Family were executed include Arlief and other treacherous merchants.

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    • Nobody really know what happens in that "massacre". And, in fact, the incriminated are the stormcloacks, the legate rikkle said that and galmar denied "my soldiers never can do that such things". I really think, that was any attack of the forsworn to the town. Too, i don't think that whatever was that massacre, the stormcloaks was involucrated, whatever you go, any camp, you can talk with these mens and womans, is a CIVIL rebellium please, a big number of they was civilian, besides, with all that of honor and proud of the nords, i really doubt that the soldier stormcloaks (before civilians) can kill other inoccents nords civilians. In fact, the forsworn are bad people, the bretons of Kartwasten (like the parents of that child of dibella) and someones of markath (like the breton of the stables, not, i'am not talking about the cannibal) are in fact "people of the reach" the forsworn, are these natives that still have their old ways of live, and seek to kill ANYONE (yea, people of the reach too) who not is forsworn, among their own people are violent too, they make heavy and violent jokes that are considered normal... and worship a bad thing o two. It is obvious who are to blame... And, one user said that the nords can't win to the thalmor, i say : HA! The Stormcloaks only is a improvised civil army, i don't think those rags are his "war armor" (the nord carved armor is best, and a proof of that), and any nord, that supports the empire or not, hates thalmor, and ALL can fight against them (and there is some evidence of that XD). And besides, after the empire abandoned Hammerfell, the redguards were able to expel the thalmors. Ohhh, yep, HAMMERFELL. Who can really say that Skyrim is alone against the thalmor if the stormcloacks win the war? The only fact because hammerfell don't help the empire is because the empire abandoned them and betrayed. Is a empire ¬_¬, the empire only worries about THE EMPIRE. Is obvious my hate to the empire and the thalmors yep :V. And i know that Ulfric is a rat, don't matter, really, the people rise against any king that not worries about them, and maybe ulfric still worried about the people of skyrim, and he have a LOT of reasons to hate the thalmor too, and Elenwen... Anyway, i really think it's better, to be able to defend your land and your way of life... and your people... even if you run the risk of dying, it's FREEDOM, and one of the things that an Empire removes is FREEDOM. The empire only seeks to maintain itself as and empire, not the "peace" or the people. And besides, the "peace" is not worth it if there is no freedom.

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    • The Stormcloaks couldn't beat the Thalmor because the Thalmor mages are really powerful and if they

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    • How could the Stormcloaks even dream of beating the Thalmor if they all but destroyed the Blades and have some of the best mages in tamriel. If they even started an assault reinforcements from Cyrodiil would come either Thalmor or legion soldiers and wipe the floor with those damn rebels and heretics.

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    • ....This go way off track o-o

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    • In my opinion, regardless of which side is stronger, they are fucked. Imperial's win? The Empire is still weakened and the Thalmor can do WHATEVER they want. Stormcloaks win? Half the *******ing population is dead and the other half is tired, congrats Ulfric. Either way, this whole civil was has fucked over Skyrim, and possibly even a majority of the entire empire. 

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    • Party Vanderbilt wrote:
      Stendarr God of Justice & Mercy wrote:
      Guys. The Horseman is generated somewhere, anywhere in Skyrim during 10PM-4AM ingame hours. It isnt implied he's anyone, one time I saw him near Whiterun, another time in Dragon Bridge, another near Morthal.

      Follow him. He always comes to roost in Rorikstead.

      or hamvirs rest

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    • Unlike the Empire, the Stormcloaks got the Dragonborn on their side if they win

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    • 73.79.228.137 wrote:
      Unlike the Empire, the Stormcloaks got the Dragonborn on their side if they win

      What makes you think the Dragonborn wouldn't keep helping the Empire, after they'd spent all that effort winning the Civil War for them? 

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    • What Dreavan13 said. And lets say the Dragonborn does leave the Empire after he wins the war....Why would he stay with the Stormcloaks then?

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    • I don't mean to burst anyone's spirits, but note that this thread is getting off topic (and has been for a while). Try to return it/connect it back to the massacre of Karthwasten.

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    • Can someone please tell me there is a mod where the Dragonborn can end the war himself, as in he fixes everything through various quests and the like? Also be able to take down the Dardic princes, that would be awesome as well.

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    • Yall are so wrong in so many levels, None of you even mentioned the cut-civil war content because yall are too lazy to check the Creation Kit, 

      Basically there was originally a side-quest in committing a massacre to any villages/farms would be the next step to capturing the hold, ANY Sides could do this and you would be involved in this thus killing any imperial/stormcloak supporters that would get in your way.

      Don't believe me? Here are some various dialogues for it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-u_SJfJMQA

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    • It’s amazing how dumb all of you are. stormcloak independence would mean destruction for skyrim. They cannot sustain themselves and require the empire for trade. Once they become independent, THERE IS NOTHING THAT WOULD STOP THE DOMINION FROM ENTERING SKYRIM. The legion wouldn’t stop them, why the hell would they? They just lost a war fighting the stormcloaks so why would they stop they try to help them now? Skyrim would lose its trading partners and would fall easily. The fact that an Army that lost to the Dominion is at a stalemate with the Stormcloaks should be enough evidence that the Storncloaks could not win alone. What part of losIng resorces, men, allies, and land, makes all of you morons think that an independent skyrim would be better? It makes no strategical sense at all. The only reason Hammerfell did it was because the Dominion was too focused elsewhere and the Redguards had many tools And luck to help them beat the dominion. But now if Skyrim were independent with no allies, what the hell makes any of you think they could survive?

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    • Do not insult other users here and please refrain from using all caps, as it violates our forum policy.

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    • 206.225.103.112 wrote:
      It’s amazing how dumb all of you are. stormcloak independence would mean destruction for skyrim. They cannot sustain themselves and require the empire for trade. Once they become independent, THERE IS NOTHING THAT WOULD STOP THE DOMINION FROM ENTERING SKYRIM. The legion wouldn’t stop them, why the hell would they? They just lost a war fighting the stormcloaks so why would they stop they try to help them now? Skyrim would lose its trading partners and would fall easily. The fact that an Army that lost to the Dominion is at a stalemate with the Stormcloaks should be enough evidence that the Storncloaks could not win alone. What part of losIng resorces, men, allies, and land, makes all of you morons think that an independent skyrim would be better? It makes nowhere and the Redguards had many tools And luck to help them beat the dominion. But now if Skyrim were independent with no allies, what the hell makes any of you think they could survive?

      You sir have heavily underestimated both the stormcloaks and the imperial legion and for that you are being biased up to this point, During the great war, The legion killed waves of them. Pretty sure the stormcloaks are those same legionnaires. Also the Legion have mages. The mages the Stormcloak have are likely also Legion veterans themselves.

      And Both sides have a faster chance of defeating the thalmors. They can Recruit Giants and warriors, Don't believe me?

      Here is bethesda's unused cw mission script plan for example:

      8 - recruit a giant
      10 - recruit a warrior ally
      11 - recruit orc ally 

      With that being said, Both sides could easily beat the thalmor without breaking a sweat, Vanilla Skyrim's lore is weak, But The cut-content lore makes much more sense.

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    • Over 7,000 hours playtime in Skyrim alone and has read every piece of lore since The Arena here, •The Stormcloak's cause is just •The Imperial's cause is just •Neither side can defeat the Aldmeri Dominion without Unity, which the Stormcloak's cause will throw under the bus with their Independence •Cut content isn't lore, cut content didn't happen, cut content isn't a valid argument •There is no correct side in war, but the outcome for a hope of defeating the Aldmeri Dominion is that the Empire wins the civil war and keeps their access to borders and land within Skyrim /thread

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    • Let's say Skyrim defeats the empire. Everyone hates the Aldmeri Dominion that is not a part of them. So Skyrim would need to form alliance with the nations who oppose the Empire as well. Hammerfell naturally as the first. They also defeated the Thalmor after the empire cut ties with them and Hammerfell beat them out of their lands. Next is Morrowind though they are weakened from the eruption and Argonian invasion substantially. But the Empire has done nothing good for them since they abandoned Morrowind. House Redoran is also badass. That's Skyrim, Morrowind, and Hammerfell. That is a pretty strong group. Plus any Telvanni left are no joke and would prove a very real threat to Thalmor mages.

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    • Continued Then you add that clearly if Ulfric did win he did so with the Dragonborn as well. The Dragonborn is ridiculously OP and that gives Skyrim a great deal more power. At some point Ulfric gives Cruel-Sea permission to form up a navy for Skyrim since the man has been begging him for this for some time. This serves as the new source for trade between Skyrim and it's allies since the East Empire Company would be gone. High Rock and Cyrodiil would be the only remnants of the Empire, but at this point they serve as no threat to Skyrim and it's allies. The Aldmeri Dominion would in fact be foolish to invade. Alone and weakened either procince would still be a tough victory for the Thalmor, but United the three provinces could not only defeat the Thalmor but drive them back to the Summerset Isles.

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    • Continued Also if we want to start delving into the more creative strategies for Skyrim, 1) they could learn a great deal from enhanced studies in Blackreach. Somehow utilizing dwarves machinery would give them another distinct advantage. 2) Dragons. If the Dragonborn has defeated Alduin and Miraak then he could in some way command some of the dragons if not many dragons. 3) If the Dragonborn has aided Solstheim and House Redoran to a high extent then they would be more than likely to ally themselves with Skyrim. Especially after foiling the Hlaalu assassination plot and re-opening the Ebony mine. 4) If the Dragonborn is harbinger of the Companions and wields Wuuthrad that will also put fire into the hearts of the Nords unifying them even more. 5) If the Dark Brotherhood was successful regardless of who assassinated the Emperor himself then the Empire would be even more weakened and unlikely to sustain a war with Skyrim. 6) Tullius does not have the entire Imperial legion at his back, so with the Dragonborn in addition to a strong Skyrim the war for Skyrims independence could be over quickly. Remember Tullius only has a token force out of a weakened legion.

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    • 174.255.202.5 wrote:

      Hammerfell naturally as the first. They also defeated the Thalmor after the empire cut ties with them and Hammerfell beat them out of their lands.

      Neither province would have any interest in a defence agreement with the other since both provinces are severely weak. If both members of a defence agreement are weak, then an opposing force has a better opportunity to attack whatever front is left weakest from the redistribution of military assets. If military forces from Hammerfell move to reinforce Skyrim, southern and eastern coastal Hammerfell becomes more viable for Aldmeri footholds. Vice versa if Skyrim reinforces Hammerfell. Both provinces are too weak to form a sustainable mutual defence after Hammerfell is left alone and still in a cold war recovering from the previous conflict and Skyrim is recovering from a civil war.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      Next is Morrowind though they are weakened from the eruption and Argonian invasion substantially. But the Empire has done nothing good for them since they abandoned Morrowind.

      Like you said, Morrowind is too militarily weak and to become involved in the war climate at the moment would be a detrimental interposition since the Dominion has made no direct acts of aggression against Morrowind. Additionally, the houses are desperately building a defence against the constant threat of a second Accession War. Any commitment of forces to another province would weaken their defence.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      Plus any Telvanni left are no joke and would prove a very real threat to Thalmor mages.

      When has House Telvanni ever been interested in the affairs or relations of other provinces? They are notoriously nationalistic and xenophobic and would never agree to commit forces to an offensive war even at the vote of the other great houses.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      The Dragonborn is ridiculously OP and that gives Skyrim a great deal more power.

      Even in the context of the game itself and not just lore, what is ridiculous is to assume that the Dragonborn would be powerful enough to completely nullify any handicap against Skyrim in the face of an all-out Dominion invasion. Of course, the Dragonborn would help significantly but its unrealistic to assert that the Dragonborn could almost single-handedly destroy a Dominion invasion against a weakened Skyrim.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      High Rock and Cyrodiil would be the only remnants of the Empire, but at this point they serve as no threat to Skyrim and it's allies.

      Again, no defence partners. Skyrim would be alone with a battered military and divided political environment. Given that Skyrim would be virtually defenceless against a Dominion invasion, it would allow the Dominion an extreme geostrategic advantage over the Empire if it had jumping-off points to its immediate north and south. It is then a distinct possibility that even if the Stormcloaks had won the Civil War, the Empire would launch a dedicated counter-offensive in Skyrim with a dedicated and veteran legion - rather than what Tullius had which was essentially conscripts and sign-ups with an officer backbone - to prevent the Dominion from gaining a significant advantage over the Empire in a possible future second conflict.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      (An independent Skyrim) could learn a great deal from enhanced studies in Blackreach.

      For the thousands of years the Dwemer have been missing, military forces have completely failed or neglected to implement Dwemer technology into their arsenals despite having access to extensive Dwemer ruins. It is, therefore, an unsafe assumption to say that an independent Skyrim would make any attempt to weaponize Dwemer technology, especially given the plethora of problems they would have to dedicate resources to and the cultural distain for magic present in Skyrim.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      Dragons. If the Dragonborn has defeated Alduin and Miraak then he could in some way command some of the dragons if not many dragons.

      I don't argue that the Dragonborn would serve as an important military asset but I find it fundamentally unlikely that the Dragonborn's limited control over some Dragons would be enough to compensate for the severe lack of military power from an independent Skyrim. The Dragonborn may potentially devastate an eastern foot-hold but a foot-hold on the other side of the province would have no trouble pushing towards Skyrim's assets in the Dragonborn's absence.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      If the Dragonborn has aided Solstheim and House Redoran to a high extent then they would be more than likely to ally themselves with Skyrim.

      Redoran may well be able to provide military support to Skyrim without needing to interact with the other great houses for approval but it wouldn't make political sense. If Redoran attacks the Dominion, the Dominion will likely interpret that as an attack from the rest of Morrowind. The great houses would despise such a unilateral action on the part of House Redoran. It's not realistic.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      If the Dragonborn is harbinger of the Companions and wields Wuuthrad that will also put fire into the hearts of the Nords unifying them even more.

      This just refers back to my previous point about the Dragonborn not being a significant enough asset to defeat an Aldmeri invasion.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      If the Dark Brotherhood was successful regardless of who assassinated the Emperor himself then the Empire would be even more weakened and unlikely to sustain a war with Skyrim.

      This has nothing to do with the ability for an independent Skyrim to defend or prevent an Aldmeri invasion but the point is moot regardless. From a historical perspective, assassinations that have not ended the dynasty itself have never made a significant impact. The Empire has been able to run to the heir-apparent for mostly symbolic leadership. It is fair to assume Mede II had an heir and the Empire is therefore militaristically stable for having lost its leader and able to continue any military operations it was conducting or planning.

      174.255.202.5 wrote:

      Tullius does not have the entire Imperial legion at his back, so with the Dragonborn in addition to a strong Skyrim the war for Skyrims[sic] independence could be over quickly. Remember Tullius only has a token force out of a weakened legion.

      As I said previously, the Empire is not using the elite of it's forces in the Civil War. This is why the war is not asymmetrical and the Stormcloaks can win. I also made the point previously that the Empire can decide to dedicate a strong military offensive against Skyrim to secure it against Aldmeri invasion using it's dedicated legions - those seen during the Great War that used better armour, weapons, were mostly mounted, and led by an extensive backbone of skilled officers. If this type of force were used against the Stormcloaks, there would be no contest. They are not used because it is essential for them to fortify the southern border of Cyrodiil and, to a lesser extent, the Hammerfell border. The Empire can decide to relocate one of these legions from Cyrodiil to retake Skyrim to prevent the Aldmeri from gaining a jumping-off point to the north and for all we know this may very well be their intention in any event of Stormcloak victory.

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    • Just goes to show that the Stormcloak cause is hypocritical.

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    • If Erandur is your follower he will also mention the forsworn attacks on Karthwasten.

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    • How so? We know for sure that it was attacked by the Forsworn and if you favor the imperials in the negotiations the Stormcloaks will demand tribute from the imperials.

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    • Ulfric's already killed Nords who didn't side with him in Markarth, and his demands to Balgruuf are further proof of his extremism & hypocrisy, so there's no doubt the Stormcloaks were responsible for the Karthwasten massacre.

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    • A FANDOM user
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