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  • I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?

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    • Because the Thanmer are the ruling government of the Altmer, they will conquer Nirn and then SPAAAAAAACE!!!

      But, in all seriousness, I think everyone would be better off if the Thalmor ruled Nirn.

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    • Seriosuly? Yes, everyone would be better off, with the human genocide, religious persecution, torture and imprisonment... yeah... sounds great!

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    • Yeah, it would suck while the Thalmor purged Nirn of human filth, but afterwords everyone would be better off.

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    • No, thank you. Immortality seems boring.

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    • If you think about it, the goal of the Thalmor is, in the end, world peace.

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    • Yes by killing absolutely everyone and their religions

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    • While I don't like or dislike the Thalmor, I can see that in a way they are the inverse of the Stormcloaks, albeit much, much more extreme. The Thalmor and Stormcloaks are both racist factions, who feel entitlement to lands that were never originally theirs, and are willing to kill those who stand in the way of their goals. An obvious difference being that Stormcloak racism is more xenophobic, whereas the Thalmor are Elven supremacists and eugenicists who will kill you simply for having different religious beliefs.

      I also imagine that for players who enjoy being Elves in fantasy RPG's, the Thalmor seem like the obvious faction to side with, given the Empire's history and the Stormcloak's racism towards Elves. Thalmor supporters probably don't care about the religious persecution because of what Tiber Septim did to Alinor. But no matter how you attempt to justify the Thalmor's actions, it's obvious that they're intended by Bethesda's writers to be antagonists and villains.

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    • For any Thalmor haters:

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      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK
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    • Then this is the end for the Elder Scrolls series? Or another Alessian-like rebellion?

      MK's message ony gave me more desire and questions rather than answers tbh.

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    • It would mean the end of the known universe - a return to the dawn era - just as the Thalmor want.

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    • I see. Then what next after that? A new beginning?

      Ugh! My thirst for knowledge is insatiable. I'm literally getting over my head for knowledge.

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    • The Thalmor are great. 

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    • Then is this truly the end of the Elder Scrolls series? Please someone answer me! :)

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    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      Then is this truly the end of the Elder Scrolls series? Please someone answer me! :)

      It could be the end of a chapter in the Elder Scrolls. I don't think it would be the end of Nirm

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:

      It could be the end of a chapter in the Elder Scrolls. I don't think it would be the end of Nirm

      I see. Thanks for trying to answer my questions though! Another Alessian rebellion? Don't mind if I do!

      Anyway, I'll find other ways to keep me occupied. Like trying to save money for Fallout 3 GOTY on PC. Thanks, Alduin! :D

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    • The Kalpic cycle would be broken and the universe would probably remain in the state that it was during the Dawn Era. Remember, its just lore set in the far future - it will never happen in a game - Bethesda obviously won't kill off the series for the sake of lore.

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    • Jimeee wrote:
      The Kalpic cycle would be broken and the universe would probably remain in the state that it was during the Dawn Era. Remember, its just lore set in the far future - it will never happen in a game - Bethesda obviously won't kill off the series for the sake of lore.

      Okay. Thanks for informing me :D

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    • Jimeee
      Jimeee removed this reply because:
      Zero substance
      15:10, January 15, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      Then this is the end for the Elder Scrolls series? Or another Alessian-like rebellion?

      MK's message ony gave me more desire and questions rather than answers tbh.

      I think it's less that the Thalmor are going to make it happen, and more that the overall goal is just unavoidable. If I told you that my goal was for the the Sun to engulf the Earth, there's no way I'd be able to make it happen on my own, but it's still going to happen regardless.

      Whether or not the Thalmor have the power to do what they plan to, mortals are by their very definition mortal. They are finite and ultimately will die out. Whether it's through the Thalmor's genocide or because the world explodes. The Thalmor aren't really trying to cause a massive change as much as they are just trying to speed up the inevidible.

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    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      Then this is the end for the Elder Scrolls series? Or another Alessian-like rebellion?
      MK's message ony gave me more desire and questions rather than answers tbh.
      I think it's less that the Thalmor are going to make it happen, and more that the overall goal is just unavoidable. If I told you that my goal was for the the Sun to engulf the Earth, there's no way I'd be able to make it happen on my own, but it's still going to happen regardless.

      Whether or not the Thalmor have the power to do what they plan to, mortals are by their very definition mortal. They are finite and ultimately will die out. Whether it's through the Thalmor's genocide or because the world explodes. The Thalmor aren't really trying to cause a massive change as much as they are just trying to speed up the inevidible.

      You remind me of something that Paarthurnax said.

      Those who try to quicken the end may delay it. Those who try to delay the end may bring it closer..

      I think the words in the middle is what Paarthurnax said when I first met him. Is it right?

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    • Hmm.. I have a theory that the Thalmor will win, but that it won't be the end for Nirn/Tamriel.

      Everyone who read the Loveletter from the Fifth Era knows about Landfall. Landfall seems to be one damn bad thing (I think it's basicly the Aurbis falling apart, because the Thalmor slowly suceed in reducing Talos worship). Apparently, a new Amaranth is the only way to save the Godhead's dream:

      "Why Love?

      Know Love to avoid the Landfall, my brothers and sisters of the past.

      The New Man becomes God becomes Amaranth, everlasting hypnogogic. Hallucinations become lucid under His eye and therefore, like all parents of their children, the Amaranth cherishes and adores all that is come from Him."

      So, I guess that we will eventually play as "The New Man" or even as the new Amaranth in an Elder Scrolls game. That way, we could still have Nirn, even though the second Aurbis (The one that Anu dreamed) falls apart. The player basicly creates his own Aurbis.

      The Thalmor also wouldn't be a thread to it. Why? Because every Kalpa has something "special" in it. The unique thing in the current Kalpa is Talos, and all things tied to his existence. Which would also include the Thalmor. So, since every Kalpa has something unique to it, the New Man's Aurbis could have a Kalpa which doesn't have Talos.

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    • Either Paarthurnax or Arngeir. One of them said that line.

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    • The Ninja Khajiit wrote:
      If you think about it, the goal of the Thalmor is, in the end, world peace.


      I concur with this. After all, peace only happens for long periods when no one wants to fight, because most everyone has similar ideals.

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    • Peace is a lie. Even assuming the Thalmor got what they wanted and all humanity was erased, how would that bring world peace? Do we just assume that the Altmer won't start killing eachother for other reasons? Even before man was created, the elves and the very gods couldn't help but quarrel amongst eachother. There will always be crime, there will always be war. And as long as you have at least two seperate entities (be that man, nature, or divine) left on the planet, you will always have conflict. Mass genocide won't solve anything.

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    • If it's genocide of the Nords, it will solve a LOT.

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    • As long as they deport the Nords back to Atmora, I have no problem with them. 

      Skyrim belongs to no one! >:P

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    • Immortality is a right that was stripped from them.

      Sounds ironically familiar... hmm...

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    • Jimeee
      Jimeee removed this reply because:
      nonsense
      12:54, January 16, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • 46.245.144.82 wrote:
      well if you think about it the thalmor are nazis....

      from theas we can conclude that YES they are a symbole for the nazis...BUT HEY THATS JUST A THEORY...a game therory

      ( game therory theme plays )

      tdwtg

      To be honest, not a single one of those comparisons was valid. By that logic, Tiber Septim was a Nazi because he wanted to conquer and rule Tamriel, while killing all who opposed him, so he could "have a better world". The Dominion allying with Valenwood and Elsweyr has literally nothing to with Nazis. Like the Thalmor, the Septim Empire otherthrew over empires and had a more advanced military than most.

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    • Jimeee
      Jimeee removed this reply because:
      nonsense
      12:54, January 16, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • That is still the same as genocide. And Genocide is a very serious war crime and very punishable by the wrath of the Daedric Lords :-P

      The Thalmor are now united by a common cause.

      But when this battle is finished their leaders will fall to fighting amongst themselves on how best to ensure control.

      In time it will lead to war.

      Such is the nature of all things.

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    • You could compare anyone in TES to Nazis, people only compare High Elves to Nazis because they want to rule Tamriel (just like everyone else), and they also have selective breeding, however that's not necessarily a bad thing, after all it has provided them with good resistance to disease.

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    • Furthermore, the Altmer are the strongest race, and deserve to rule.

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    • Krozyne wrote:
      Furthermore, the Altmer are the strongest race, and deserve to rule.

      Blasphemy. The Daedra are far more stronger. If the Oblivion Gates weren't sealed back in the Oblivion Crisis, every mortal in Tamriel would've been dead by now.

      But Jimeee's right. Enough of the Nazi talk.

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    • Lol, I had never heard of that before.

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    • okey but why ?

      i just shared my opininon of what i thougth what could be

      what i ment wasnt " THEY ARE THE NAZIS" but more like its a subleter version of them tha bethesda did. like the helghats. they are a race of aliens that want to kill the humans and are dark and evil. but they are not nazis . it was just a theroy

      but okey we wil stop. even if i dont get why ?

      -tdwtg

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    • 46.245.144.82 wrote:
      okey but why ?

      i just shared my opininon of what i thougth what could be

      what i ment wasnt " THEY ARE THE NAZIS" but more like its a subleter version of them tha bethesda did. like the helghats. they are a race of aliens that want to kill the humans and are dark and evil. but they are not nazis . it was just a theroy

      but okey we wil stop. even if i dont get why ?

      -tdwtg


      They are NO Nazis. Even the guy who created them (Michael Kirkbride) said that. And as far as I know (And I SHOULD know) the Nazis didn't try to make themselves gods by destroying the universe.

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    • trying to defend such faction is like trying to explain why hamburgers are so good, like: "yo, i like burgers" "but it has a lot of cals" "but ends my hunger" "and it's not ecological" and so on...... but really, it'll be interesting to see thalmor huggers in TESO, i bet they'll try to organize little wars against the humans and junk

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    • Ikabite
      Ikabite removed this reply because:
      Potentially provocative.
      04:24, January 22, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Boys, let's not get into a heated historical debate about WWII, stay on topic.

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    • Thalmor believe Lorkhan tricked the other Aedra into giving up on the Aldmer's divinity, and therefore despise him and his creation: the Humans. They consider themselves to be the only perfect Mer. Over hundreds of generations they have bred themselves into a racially pure line from the Ayleids, even more pure than the cannibalistic Bosmers and are now almost identical to one another in appearance.

      The Dominion is formed to supposedly "unite" all Elves and prove superiority over Humans, but obviously there are differences in political beliefs between them just like there are between the Nords and Imperials & Reachmen and Nords.

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    • Nazul Rostello wrote:
      Thalmor believe Lorkhan tricked the other Aedra into giving up on the Aldmer's divinity, and therefore despise him and his creation: the Humans. They consider themselves to be the only perfect Mer. Over hundreds of generations they have bred themselves into a racially pure line from the Ayleids, even more pure than the cannibalistic Bosmers and are now almost identical to one another in appearance.

      The Dominion is formed to supposedly "unite" all Elves and prove superiority over Humans, but obviously there are differences in political beliefs between them just like there are between the Nords and Imperials & Reachmen and Nords.

      They didn't "bred themselves" from the Ayleids, all mer descend from the Aldmer who were originally the Remaining Ehlnofex.

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    • Yeah but the thalmor are at the end of the day just part of the dominion. So even though they call the shots, they will have to restrain themselves to keep it a secet.

      PS.

      RIP. Man you had a good run but the High Elves Killed you.

      PPS: Lets face it the High Elves will destroy the world and probably empower Sithis in the void. I bet they'll scream if it happens for their last seconds of life.

      PPPS. I belive this will happen because the Dwemer tryed to become gods and they died. It Reminds me of the death of Indiana Jones: And the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull's villan.

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    • 84.75.3.222 wrote:

      PPS: Lets face it the High Elves will destroy the world and probably empower Sithis in the void. I bet they'll scream if it happens for their last seconds of life.

      PPPS. I belive this will happen because the Dwemer tryed to become gods and they died. It Reminds me of the death of Indiana Jones: And the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull's villan.

      Altmer have nothing to do with Sithis.

      Dwemer didn't die.

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    • Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK

      If he's right about that, then it would be a huge slap in the face for everyone in the Civil War. 

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    • Why? MK only says that the Thalmor are going to win. Not when they are going to win. It could happen in 4000 years or maybe in 40 years. Who knows?

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    • I meant if they won the war against the Empire or the Stormcloaks, I wouldn't be happy with that. But if someone else is, to each his/her own. 

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    • At the end of the day, what the Thalmor really want is for Elves to rule Tamriel. You cant really compare them to Tiber Septim, seeing as his goal was to make Tamriel a more peaceful place. The Empire always treated the elves fairly, but of course they couldnt stand having to answer to a 'mortal human' as an emperor.

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    • No, what the Thalmor want is to destroy the Aurbis, destroy Lorkhan and reset the Kalpa so that it stays forever in the Dawn Era.

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    • 109.155.212.128 wrote:
      The Empire always treated the elves fairly

      That's debatable really. It's generally considered unfair to invade another people's province and destroy their capital city. Even the Pocket Guide to the Empire admits, in regards to Valenwood, that "The Empire used the province as it saw fit, and neglected it otherwise." It's true that the Empire is a much more fair society than the Aldmeri Dominion, although it would be false to say that the Empire always treated the elves fairly.

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    • The writer of the PGE 1 is a racist, which is already known. He shouldn't be believed.

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK
      If he's right about that, then it would be a huge slap in the face for everyone in the Civil War. 

      Agreed. Nevermind Mankind, How would they beat Skyrim alone if they couldn't beat Hammerfell alone? Skyrim has a Dragonborn. Hammerfell did not. I just hope Bethesda decide not to listen to Kirk this time around.

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    • The Thalmor are the embodiment of true evil IMO.

      I heard it from Legate Fasendil himself when he explained the Night of Green Fire.

      No matter what the Thalmor say, or how they think how noble they are, they're still evil.

      If they did exist in this world, they'd be serious war criminals.

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    • Honastly the Thalmor more than anything hate the empire.

      1-The were superior race and tiber septim massacered them with the Bronze Tower

      2-They where then forced to worship the guy who forced them to come into his rule

      3-The Nords are the true gods of genocides. Snow Elves. Reachmen.

      4-I doubt the Thalmor could kill the Redguards or take Orsimir from the Orcs.

      5-The argonians are usally unconquerable in reality

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      The writer of the PGE 1 is a racist, which is already known. He shouldn't be believed.

      There wasn't one single writer for the PGE 1, and most information in the PGE is factual since it's the earliest basis for a lot of TES lore. The only bits of the PGE1 which shouldn't be believed are those with annotations written next to by "YR". I was also quoting the PGE3 about the Empire using Valenwood, which is a reliable source.

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    • While the Pocket Guides are fine for lore purposes, its commonly accepted that they include Imperial propaganda. In fact, "YR's" additions are also acceptable in the lore and add additional insight to the suposed claims the PGE makes. It's no accident that Bethesda included his annotations in the books.

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    • ScholarOfTheScrolls wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      If he's right about that, then it would be a huge slap in the face for everyone in the Civil War. 

      Agreed. Nevermind Mankind, How would they beat Skyrim alone if they couldn't beat Hammerfell alone? Skyrim has a Dragonborn. Hammerfell did not. I just hope Bethesda decide not to listen to Kirk this time around.

      You didn't complete Kematu's quest? The war with the Dominion in Hammerfell is still going on & it has lasted a long time since the Great War and been quite costly to the Redguards. Hammerfell haven't defeat the Thalmor yet. There was no point of fighting longer than needed when the Thalmor had already done enough damage planting the seeds of hate in Tamriel people's with the WGC.

      It was young Titus Mede II who personally captured Lord Naarifin, but he never confirmed of Naarifin's death. I'd say if he returned as some kind of demi-god, that equal to having a Dragonborn on the human faction. It would be a good plot for another Great War.

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      "Lord Naarifin was kept alive for thirty-three days, hanging from the White Gold Tower. It is not recorded where his body was buried, if it was buried at all. Once source claims he was carried off by a winged daedra on the thirty-fourth day."
      The Great War

      I'm interested to see what Bethesda has in mind for the Skyrim Civil War.

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    • Nazul Rostello wrote:

      ScholarOfTheScrolls wrote:


      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      If he's right about that, then it would be a huge slap in the face for everyone in the Civil War. 
      Agreed. Nevermind Mankind, How would they beat Skyrim alone if they couldn't beat Hammerfell alone? Skyrim has a Dragonborn. Hammerfell did not. I just hope Bethesda decide not to listen to Kirk this time around.
      You didn't complete Kematu's quest? The war with the Dominion in Hammerfell is still going on & it has lasted a long time since the Great War and been quite costly to the Redguards. Hammerfell haven't defeat the Thalmor yet. There was no point of fighting longer than needed when the Thalmor had already done enough damage planting the seeds of hate in Tamriel people's with the WGC.

      It was young Titus Mede II who personally captured Lord Naarifin, but he never confirmed of Naarifin's death. I'd say if he returned as some kind of demi-god, that equal to having a Dragonborn on the human faction. It would be a good plot for another Great War.

      Quotebg
      "Lord Naarifin was kept alive for thirty-three days, hanging from the White Gold Tower. It is not recorded where his body was buried, if it was buried at all. Once source claims he was carried off by a winged daedra on the thirty-fourth day."
      The Great War

      I'm interested to see what Bethesda has in mind for the Skyrim Civil War.

      I believe Kemetu states that Hammerfell actively opposes the Dominion, not that a war is still literally going on.

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    • guys where can you read those history's coz i dont know where to start when i read to wikia.. and i only played skyrim btw, so theres lots of things i dont know about other provincess.. 

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    • 96.47.159.101 wrote:
      guys where can you read those history's coz i dont know where to start when i read to wikia.. and i only played skyrim btw, so theres lots of things i dont know about other provincess.. 

      You can learn a lot by reading books in-game.

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    • 96.47.159.101 wrote:
      guys where can you read those history's coz i dont know where to start when i read to wikia.. and i only played skyrim btw, so theres lots of things i dont know about other provincess.. 


      In-game books and dialogue.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      46.245.144.82 wrote:
      okey but why ?

      i just shared my opininon of what i thougth what could be

      what i ment wasnt " THEY ARE THE NAZIS" but more like its a subleter version of them tha bethesda did. like the helghats. they are a race of aliens that want to kill the humans and are dark and evil. but they are not nazis . it was just a theroy

      but okey we wil stop. even if i dont get why ?

      -tdwtg


      They are NO Nazis. Even the guy who created them (Michael Kirkbride) said that. And as far as I know (And I SHOULD know) the Nazis didn't try to make themselves gods by destroying the universe.


      thats what i wrot in my respone mate !

      -tdwtg

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    • MHInf wrote:

      While I don't like or dislike the Thalmor, I can see that in a way they are the inverse of the Stormcloaks, albeit much, much more extreme. The Thalmor and Stormcloaks are both racist factions, who feel entitlement to lands that were never originally theirs, and are willing to kill those who stand in the way of their goals. An obvious difference being that Stormcloak racism is more xenophobic, whereas the Thalmor are Elven supremacists and eugenicists who will kill you simply for having different religious beliefs.

      I also imagine that for players who enjoy being Elves in fantasy RPG's, the Thalmor seem like the obvious faction to side with, given the Empire's history and the Stormcloak's racism towards Elves. Thalmor supporters probably don't care about the religious persecution because of what Tiber Septim did to Alinor. But no matter how you attempt to justify the Thalmor's actions, it's obvious that they're intended by Bethesda's writers to be antagonists and villains.

      Well the difference is for the Thalmor, it's not even Racism. They're trying to undo what they consider a mistake: Mortality. It's not a matter of evil, in a way it seems like they're trying to do the right thing.

      I don't know. I support the Thalmor because I really think Altmer are an underappreciated and widely overly hated race. But as far as there actual goal goes, it makes sense but is it really worth the price of undoing so many?

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    • @50.13.110.34

      It's not. It's very selfish.

      If they also undid humanity in the process, that is like serving the Dread Father himself, which is very wrong and evil.

      The Thalmor may justify their goals, but they are no different from like the Dark Brotherhood's brutality and fanatical attitude.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      96.47.159.101 wrote:
      guys where can you read those history's coz i dont know where to start when i read to wikia.. and i only played skyrim btw, so theres lots of things i dont know about other provincess.. 

      In-game books and dialogue.

      ^^ This.

      (And the Thalmor are not the first Thalmor/Aldmeri Dominion. There were several ones before the current one.

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    • Simple...the Altmer are more entitled to rule Tamriel. The age of Imperial Tamriel is over. Long live the Dominion!!!!

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    • 97.80.107.205 wrote:
      Simple...the Altmer are more entitled to rule Tamriel. The age of Imperial Tamriel is over. Long live the Dominion!!!!

      Yay! :)

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    • The Altmer and all of their ilk are entitled only to a poisoned dagger in the lungs.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:
      97.80.107.205 wrote:
      Simple...the Altmer are more entitled to rule Tamriel. The age of Imperial Tamriel is over. Long live the Dominion!!!!
      Yay! :)

      Please. The Dominion are weak. If the Oblivion Gates were permanently opened, all mortals, Empire and other governments included, will be butchered in weeks, or even days.

      btw KINMUNE is hawt :3

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    • True. But without the Septim emperors to lead them, the Empire is NOT anywhere close to the superpower status they once had. They're lost almost all their power by the time Skyrim starts. The only two provinces they firmly hold are High Rock and Cyrodill. Skyrim is a contested land.Imperial dominance in Tamriel is coming to a close. Eleven supremacy is the only truth. Long live the Dominion!!!

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    • Just please remember not to turn this into a flame war.

      Do so, and I will have to report this thread to a Forum Mod and have it closed.

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    • As HDS already said, do not turn this thread into a flame war.

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    • No flaming. Just stating facts. The Altmer have earned their place on the Ruby Throne more than the other races. :)

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    • Please put all CW posts on the Civil War Super Thread

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    • We haven't had a very good look inside the Dominion. A few outcasts and lore from the inner workings of course, but for all we know, as long as you're a taxpaying, law-abiding citizen of the Dominion, the Thalmor could be the perfect government as far as you know. We just don't know, so the question of why would anyone support them remains unanswered.

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    • This is true. We haven't seen much of them. But we can't deny what the Dominion appears to be: a dominating force in the world that is able to manipulate ANY event to their advantage and is a very real contender for the throne. We also know what the Empire has come to: a dying nation that has no one left to turn to. I'm not saying that they can't come back from the brink of destruction, but as of right now, the time has come for the Imperials to step aside and relinquish power to the Dominion. 

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    • Everyone. Please put ALL Civil War related posts on the Civil War Super Thread.

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    • 97.80.107.205 wrote:
      This is true. We haven't seen much of them. But we can't deny what the Dominion appears to be: a dominating force in the world that is able to manipulate ANY event to their advantage and is a very real contender for the throne. We also know what the Empire has come to: a dying nation that has no one left to turn to. I'm not saying that they can't come back from the brink of destruction, but as of right now, the time has come for the Imperials to step aside and relinquish power to the Dominion. 

      Agreed

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    • 97.80.107.205 wrote:
      This is true. We haven't seen much of them. But we can't deny what the Dominion appears to be: a dominating force in the world that is able to manipulate ANY event to their advantage and is a very real contender for the throne. We also know what the Empire has come to: a dying nation that has no one left to turn to. I'm not saying that they can't come back from the brink of destruction, but as of right now, the time has come for the Imperials to step aside and relinquish power to the Dominion. 

      (Ahem.. they kinda abanondoned everyone who wanted to help them, however. See also: Skyrim and Hammerfell).

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    • Timeoin wrote:
      97.80.107.205 wrote:
      This is true. We haven't seen much of them. But we can't deny what the Dominion appears to be: a dominating force in the world that is able to manipulate ANY event to their advantage and is a very real contender for the throne. We also know what the Empire has come to: a dying nation that has no one left to turn to. I'm not saying that they can't come back from the brink of destruction, but as of right now, the time has come for the Imperials to step aside and relinquish power to the Dominion. 
      (Ahem.. they kinda abanondoned everyone who wanted to help them, however. See also: Skyrim and Hammerfell).

      Exactly! This shows the Imperial's inability to lead. They didn't give sufficient support to Morrowind after the Red Mountian eruption and Argonian invasion, thus they didn't serve them anymore. Elsweyr was overlooked and taken over by the Thalmor. Hammerfell was basically given away so the pathetic Emperor could keep his throne. We all know what happened in Skyrim. Valenwood couldn't be defended. What's left after all of this? The glaring reality that the Imperials are weak and unfit to rule the Empire. Long live the Dominion!!!

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    • 97.80.107.205 wrote:

      Exactly! This shows the Imperial's inability to lead. They didn't give sufficient support to Morrowind after the Red Mountian eruption and Argonian invasion, thus they didn't serve them anymore. Elsweyr was overlooked and taken over by the Thalmor. Hammerfell was basically given away so the pathetic Emperor could keep his throne. We all know what happened in Skyrim. Valenwood couldn't be defended. What's left after all of this? The glaring reality that the Imperials are weak and unfit to rule the Empire. Long live the Dominion!!!

      (A warning. Try to start any flame war, and I will report this. Also, please post ALL Civil War related posts in the Civil War Super Thread.)

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    • Why do you people think that the Thalmor want to destroy the universe? I have no idea how mortals from Nirn (yes, Elves are mortal, they just live for a very long time) can destroy the ENTIRE universe. If by destroying the belief of Talos is destroying the universe, how come there was one before Talos was a god?

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    • Noxious9 wrote:
      Why do you people think that the Thalmor want to destroy the universe? I have no idea how mortals from Nirn (yes, Elves are mortal, they just live for a very long time) can destroy the ENTIRE universe. If by destroying the belief of Talos is destroying the universe, how come there was one before Talos was a god?

      People see the Thalmor in this way because of the core context in this whole conflict: imperialism. Foreign nation tries to enforce their beliefs and influence over other nations, people see this as being wrong, many come to despise them. But what most people don't realize is that this is EXACTLY what Tiber Septim did in the Second Era. Also, he did it on a continental scale. But I guess it was okay for him to do it right? Right? WRONG!!! There is no difference. If anything, it's history repeating itself. Only this time the roles are reversed. If an Elder Scrolls game featured the Summerset Isles under attack from Tiber Septim and the Numidium, everyone would hate Talos. It's all in the presentation. Long live the Dominion!!!!!

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    • 97.80.107.205 wrote:
      Noxious9 wrote:
      Why do you people think that the Thalmor want to destroy the universe? I have no idea how mortals from Nirn (yes, Elves are mortal, they just live for a very long time) can destroy the ENTIRE universe. If by destroying the belief of Talos is destroying the universe, how come there was one before Talos was a god?
      People see the Thalmor in this way because of the core context in this whole conflict: imperialism. Foreign nation tries to enforce their beliefs and influence over other nations, people see this as being wrong, many come to despise them. But what most people don't realize is that this is EXACTLY what Tiber Septim did in the Second Era. Also, he did it on a continental scale. But I guess it was okay for him to do it right? Right? WRONG!!! There is no difference. If anything, it's history repeating itself. Only this time the roles are reversed. If an Elder Scrolls game featured the Summerset Isles under attack from Tiber Septim and the Numidium, everyone would hate Talos. It's all in the presentation. Long live the Dominion!!!!!

      (Last warning.)

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    • @ HumbleDaedricServant                                                                                                             With all due respect, I'm not trying to start any wars here. This board is dedicated to stating why some defend the Thalmor and their actions. No actual arguments have been kindled and my posts are not directed towards any one individual. I'm simply clearing away any clout surrounding this topic and related topics. I apologize if I have offended anyone with my opinions or views. :)

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    • 97.80.107.205 wrote:
      @ HumbleDaedricServant                                                                                                             With all due respect, I'm not trying to start any wars here. This board is dedicated to stating why some defend the Thalmor and their actions. No actual arguments have been kindled and my posts are not directed towards any one individual. I'm simply clearing away any clout surrounding this topic and related topics. I apologize if I have offended anyone with my opinions or views. :)

      Then all is forgiven.

      btw Why not create an account?

      Account = Profit :)

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    • I might. I just wanted to clear the air a bit. I know the Thalmor can be VERY hard to get along with, but they just come from a very different point of view... and use rather extreme methods. I want this to be clear: I do NOT hate the other races or criticise others who disagree with my point of view. I just feel that Elvenkind deserves more than all the hate they're been getting...plus wouldn't it be interesting to see what an Elven Empire looks like? :)

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    • Well, generally speaking, some people just find the antagonist factions far more interesting than the protagonist factions. ^^

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    • 97.80.107.205 wrote:
      I might. I just wanted to clear the air a bit. I know the Thalmor can be VERY hard to get along with, but they just come from a very different point of view... and use rather extreme methods. I want this to be clear: I do NOT hate the other races or criticise others who disagree with my point of view. I just feel that Elvenkind deserves more than all the hate they're been getting...plus wouldn't it be interesting to see what an Elven Empire looks like? :)

      Agreed. Their goals are noble, but the methods they use are wrong.

      I also agree with Chuu ^^

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    • Thank you for your understanding...on all issues. The Dominion thanks you as well!!! :)  Oh yeah...I did join after all! I'll try to be less provocative in the future.

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    • Okay then. :)

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    • I like the Thalmor because of their cool armor and weapons 

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:
      I like the Thalmor because of their cool armor and weapons 

      Me too. I like the unhooded version of the Thalmor Robes.

      Also if I can, I'll try making a special version of the Thalmor Robes to suit my tastes :)

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    • I wish that there was a set of unenchanted Thalmor robes around. I could come up with some interesting results... :)  

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      I wish that there was a set of unenchanted Thalmor robes around. I could come up with some interesting results... :)  

      If you're on PC, you can make unenchanted versions with the Creation Kit.

      You can also modify armors if you have the knowledge. :)

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    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      I wish that there was a set of unenchanted Thalmor robes around. I could come up with some interesting results... :)  
      If you're on PC, you can make unenchanted versions with the Creation Kit.

      You can also modify armors if you have the knowledge. :)

      I wish I had a pc that could run Skyrim... but it's out of my reach. I'm bound to my 360

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:

      I wish I had a pc that could run Skyrim... but it's out of my reach. I'm bound to my 360

      Sorry to hear that :-l

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    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:
      First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:

      I wish I had a pc that could run Skyrim... but it's out of my reach. I'm bound to my 360

      Sorry to hear that :-l

      Its all good... me and computers never really got along anyway. :)

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    • Ah, okay then :)

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    • Soooo... how do you feel about the Thalmor? I won't judge. :)

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      Soooo... how do you feel about the Thalmor? I won't judge. :)

      I think that their goals are noble, but their methods are very wrong.

      They also have cool(probably the best) ships. I'd like one myself :3

      Oh yeah, KINMUNE/Queen Ayrenn is hawt ^^

      I gtg. My lack of sleep is eating me alive. Bye! :)

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    • I agree with that. Their tactics are definitely questionable on a moral level. But on a tactical and strategic level are rather brilliant. The way that they drove a wedge between Hammerfell and the Empire was particularly genius. No one can deny that they are effective at what they do. :)

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      I agree with that. Their tactics are definitely questionable on a moral level. But on a tactical and strategic level are rather brilliant. The way that they drove a wedge between Hammerfell and the Empire was particularly genius. No one can deny that they are effective at what they do. :)

      Not only that but they caused the CW to some extent, so now the conflict between the Stormcloaks and Imperials ensures that they're going to be in charge for many years to come.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:
      First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      I agree with that. Their tactics are definitely questionable on a moral level. But on a tactical and strategic level are rather brilliant. The way that they drove a wedge between Hammerfell and the Empire was particularly genius. No one can deny that they are effective at what they do. :)
      Not only that but they caused the CW to some extent, so now the conflict between the Stormcloaks and Imperials ensures that they're going to be in charge for many years to come.

      This is true. But the Civil War only favored the Thalmor when it was a stalemate. A total victory on either side poses its own problem. On the Imperial side, victory means the Empire retains a wealthy and powerful province, making them a tougher target. But a Stormcloak victory is just as bad, as now the Dominion has a new, more determined enemy to contend with. But I'm confident that they can deal with it.

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    • Still even if one side wins, they might be so weakened that the Thalmor can easily wipe them out.

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    • Which leads to another question:  What will an Elven Empire look like?

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      Which leads to another question:  What will an Elven Empire look like?

      Maybe just like the same way as the Ayleids before?

      Well, it's just my guess. But if an Elven Empire was born, there's surely bound to be another "second" St. Alessia and a rebellion that will once again consume all of Tamriel.

      tbh I'd like to see a human rebellion first-hand instead of reading it in a book.

      Gameplay =/= Lore

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      Which leads to another question:  What will an Elven Empire look like?

      Better than a nordic one. XD

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:

      Better than a nordic one. XD

      Nah, too much bloodshed, carnage and slavery going on precedent for that to be true.

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    • The Nords actually did have a large empire that encompassed much of northern Tamriel. In fact, it was the first documented Empire. But it didn't last.

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      The Nords actually did have a large empire that encompassed much of northern Tamriel. In fact, it was the first documented Empire. But it didn't last.

      Too bad for all of Mundus it didn't.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:
      The Nords actually did have a large empire that encompassed much of northern Tamriel. In fact, it was the first documented Empire. But it didn't last.

      Too bad for all of Mundus it didn't.

      It may have been for the better. I'm not sure the Nords are capable of dealing with the intricacies of governing an Empire. Alongside their native aggression, their fierce independence leads me to believe that they couldn't govern efficiently. Just look at Skyrim; its divided into nine independent holds that operate freely of one another, which isn't a very efficient means of governance. This isn't me being prejudice; I simply believe some races can lead while others cannot. I wouldn't trust my favorite race, the Khajiit, with leading an Empire.

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:

      It may have been for the better. I'm not sure the Nords are capable of dealing with the intricacies of governing an Empire. Alongside their native aggression, their fierce independence leads me to believe that they couldn't govern efficiently. Just look at Skyrim; its divided into nine independent holds that operate freely of one another, which isn't a very efficient means of governance. This isn't me being prejudice; I simply believe some races can lead while others cannot. I wouldn't trust my favorite race, the Khajiit, with leading an Empire.

      That sounds kinda racist...

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    • HumbleDaedricServant wrote:

      First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:

      It may have been for the better. I'm not sure the Nords are capable of dealing with the intricacies of governing an Empire. Alongside their native aggression, their fierce independence leads me to believe that they couldn't govern efficiently. Just look at Skyrim; its divided into nine independent holds that operate freely of one another, which isn't a very efficient means of governance. This isn't me being prejudice; I simply believe some races can lead while others cannot. I wouldn't trust my favorite race, the Khajiit, with leading an Empire.

      That sounds kinda racist...

      Maybe it is, but its how I feel. Some races make better leaders than others.

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    • First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:

      HumbleDaedricServant wrote:


      First Inquisitor Hyrandill wrote:

      It may have been for the better. I'm not sure the Nords are capable of dealing with the intricacies of governing an Empire. Alongside their native aggression, their fierce independence leads me to believe that they couldn't govern efficiently. Just look at Skyrim; its divided into nine independent holds that operate freely of one another, which isn't a very efficient means of governance. This isn't me being prejudice; I simply believe some races can lead while others cannot. I wouldn't trust my favorite race, the Khajiit, with leading an Empire.

      That sounds kinda racist...
      Maybe it is, but its how I feel. Some races make better leaders than others.

      Again, I have to give a warning. Racism isn't tolerated here. I do not tolerate racism.

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    • Sorry :( Back on topic.

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    • Apology accepted. Let's just forget about that.

      One of the main reasons why some people like the Thalmor IMO is one thing that many, many, many people ever dreamed of: Immortality/Godhood.

      tbh It sounds like nonsense to me, but if this is true, then I'm more than piqued to see this.

      The only immortals that I know aside spirits are Vampires, Liches, and the like.

      Note: The world of TES is very different from our world, so I'm kinda in the dark about how godhood in TES works. Aside from the fact that Lorkhan tricked the Divines in creating the world.

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    • Im not even sure if id want that. To live forever without end...sounds like it would get boring after 1000 years or so. I wouldn't mind living a couple thousand years like elves, but not forever.

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    • Let me say this: I dont support the Thalmor as much as I support the Aldmeri Dominion and the idea of an Elven Empire. But i guess I throw my cards in with the Thalmor as they are the ones in power...for now. If i could found my own Elven political party, I would in a heartbeat.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      Is that so. Well... wrote:

      Better than a nordic one. XD

      Nah, too much bloodshed, carnage and slavery going on precedent for that to be true.

      What makes you think there will be any of these things.

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    • I would love to live forever.

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    • Phynaster had the right idea ... take smaller steps... live longer :P

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:.What makes you think there will be any of these things.

      Well...

      Precedence, see the purges the Thalmor are performing.

      See the genocide on Talos worshippers etc.

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    • Yeah the Empire has been around for 4,5 games now, i think they are either going to be reduced to just controlling Cyrodil or the Nords will overtake the Imperial leadership and make the Empire back to a Nordic lead one again. Even if the latter happens the Dominion is probly going to be the major power now or it will be divided between the The Dominion (Elsweyr, Summerset, Valenwood), A Nordic Lead Empire (Skyrim, Cyrodil, High Rock) and strong independant nations (Hammerfall, Morrowind, and Black Marsh)

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:
      Yeah the Empire has been around for 4,5 games now, i think they are either going to be reduced to just controlling Cyrodil or the Nords will overtake the Imperial leadership and make the Empire back to a Nordic lead one again. Even if the latter happens the Dominion is probly going to be the major power now or it will be divided between the The Dominion (Elsweyr, Summerset, Valenwood), A Nordic Lead Empire (Skyrim, Cyrodil, High Rock) and strong independant nations (Hammerfall, Morrowind, and Black Marsh)

      This makes alot of sense.

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    • Dalledayul wrote:
      I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?

      the only thing i like from them is their Armor.

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    • Stormblind wrote:
      Dalledayul wrote:
      I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?
      the only thing i like from them is their Armor.

      I like them because they are the best chance Tamriel has at unification. The Empire is falling apart and the Argonians already have all the territory they want. As it stands right now,the Thalmor and the Dominion are the power players in Tamriel.

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    • Dalledayul wrote:
      I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?

      While i dont usually have a High Elf char nor do i support the thalmor 100%, the same could be said for the Empire. supporting a man like Tiber Septim, and his forefathers as well, that gave the other nations no choice and forcefully conquered them (i think all except Morrowind which was done via alliance and parts of Black Marsh) is nothing worse then what the Dominion is doing, all they really have to do is change their belief system from other races that are not elves need to be wiped out and frankly i wouldnt see a problem with them at all. Saying the Dominion is pure evil and the Empire is a source of good is pretty laughable if you look at it in that way

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    • Yeah, but the Dominion are actively trying to commit genocide and destroy the mortal world to become gods. Tiber Septim wasn't quite that evil.

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    • Yup, they're omnicidal maniacs.

      And Tiber wasn't any kind of evil, infact he was too good.

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    • Coppermantis wrote:
      Yeah, but the Dominion are actively trying to commit genocide and destroy the mortal world to become gods. Tiber Septim wasn't quite that evil.

      Wrong, a small portion of the Thalmor are trying to do that. Moreover, that stuff was written by MK and is a matter of debate as to whether or not his writings are canon.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:
      Coppermantis wrote:
      Yeah, but the Dominion are actively trying to commit genocide and destroy the mortal world to become gods. Tiber Septim wasn't quite that evil.
      Wrong, a small portion of the Thalmor are trying to do that. Moreover, that stuff was written by MK and is a matter of debate as to whether or not his writings are canon.

      You're correct, I misrepresented the Thalmor sect as the entire dominion. My apologies. 

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    • Coppermantis wrote:
      Yeah, but the Dominion are actively trying to commit genocide and destroy the mortal world to become gods. Tiber Septim wasn't quite that evil.

      Not the Dominion, the Thalmor. like i said, thalmor either need to get deposed and have a more equal body rule the Dominion or if they change their "death to all non-elves!" policy they honestly wouldnt be that bad.

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    • Hey guys seriously, they might just transform the non-elves into elves if it's easier... So that would be a genocide without death :p No seriously the Thalmor are no fans of multiculturalism but cultural-assimilation... Birth-body is meaningless next to the desires of the soul whether they align to Thalmor ideals or not...

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    • I hate the fricking Thalmor. Talos is a nord divine. They need to accept it. I can probably name all the divines. Akatosh, Julianos, Mara, Stendarr, Zenithar, Kynareth, Talos, Arkay, and Dibella.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      Yup, they're omnicidal maniacs.

      And Tiber wasn't any kind of evil, infact he was too good.

      Are you kidding, he brutally slaughtered Altmer when he invaded Summerset Isles.

      He was probably the fuel to the fire within the Thalmor.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:
      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      Yup, they're omnicidal maniacs.

      And Tiber wasn't any kind of evil, infact he was too good.

      Are you kidding, he brutally slaughtered Altmer when he invaded Summerset Isles.

      He was probably the fuel to the fire within the Thalmor.

      No, the Thalmor were always like this. We can see this in Elder Scrolls Online as well. Tiber Septim's victory certainly didn't help matters, but it wouldn't have made the Thalmor hate man any less if he didn't invade at all.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:

      Are you kidding, he brutally slaughtered Altmer when he invaded Summerset Isles.

      He was probably the fuel to the fire within the Thalmor.

      What?

      The way you are saying that makes it sound...

      Bad?

      Which I know not to be the case, can you explain what you mean?

      And what he should have done is to thouroughly occupie the Summerset Isles and displace the population and make sure that the warmongering omnicidal maniac Altmer NEVER EVER again threathen the peace of Mundus.

      Dismantle their present culture of hate and insanity, instill a new culture of guilt and repentance so as to avoid having to wipe them out completely while still retaining the option of doing so if the Altmer keep trying to destroy the world.

      Sadly the miniscule amount of decent Altmer would have to be part of it for their complicition in the acceptance of the majority's madness.


      Thalmor hardly neede any help with their unwarranted hate.

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    • Eh, I noticed that people seem to think that Tiber Septim was a good person. He wasn't. He did some quite questionable things, such as forcing Barenziah to abort.

      Just sayin'.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Eh, I noticed that people seem to think that Tiber Septim was a good person. He wasn't. He did some quite questionable things, such as forcing Barenziah to abort.

      Just sayin'.

      Just because he wasn't "good" doesn't mean he was therefore "bad".

      Also there is no good or bad/evil, there is positive or negative outcomes from actions though.

      Stopping Altmer from destroying Mundus by any and all means (except destroying Mundus)?

      Positive outcome.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      Yup, they're omnicidal maniacs.

      And Tiber wasn't any kind of evil, infact he was too good.

      I really should have said too nice or too lenient there, instead of good.

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    • The Ninja Khajiit wrote:
      If you think about it, the goal of the Thalmor is, in the end, world peace.

      Their goal is to destroy the world. I mean wat.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Eh, I noticed that people seem to think that Tiber Septim was a good person. He wasn't. He did some quite questionable things, such as forcing Barenziah to abort.

      Just sayin'.

      Just because he wasn't "good" doesn't mean he was therefore "bad".

      Also there is no good or bad/evil, there is positive or negative outcomes from actions though.

      Stopping Altmer from destroying Mundus by any and all means (except destroying Mundus)?

      Positive outcome.


      Back at Tiber's time (and in ESO), the Thalmor were different. They didn't want to destroy the world, they just wanted to unite all Mer. The 4th Era Thalmor are totally different. They have almost nothing in common with the 2nd Era Thalmor, so Tiber didn't exactly stop them from destroying Mundus.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:

      Back at Tiber's time (and in ESO), the Thalmor were different. They didn't want to destroy the world, they just wanted to unite all Mer. The 4th Era Thalmor are totally different. They have almost nothing in common with the 2nd Era Thalmor, so Tiber didn't exactly stop them from destroying Mundus.

      Uniting all Mer would clearly have a negative outcome for Tamriel going on precedence on where such attempts have led before.

      The 4th era Thalmor...

      Queen Ayrenn type people?

      Ie white mans burden way of thinking?

      That, that's not much of an improvement.

      Then, if united they would have inevetably have tried to enslave and subjugate the non-Mer Races.

      So Tiber was justified in putting an end to it, but not in only going halfway and stopping before the threat was nullified.

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    • They wouldn't. Ayrenn literally says that her goal is to unite all Mer, that's it.

      By the way, destroying Mundus and Lorkhan and Humans would be much worse than enslaving all Humans. The goal of the 4th Era Thalmor is to not only reset the Kalpa to the Dawn Era, but to also erase Lorkhan and Humans from the pattern of possibility, which means that they'd be gone for good.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Eh, I noticed that people seem to think that Tiber Septim was a good person. He wasn't. He did some quite questionable things, such as forcing Barenziah to abort.

      Just sayin'.

      Just because he wasn't "good" doesn't mean he was therefore "bad".

      Also there is no good or bad/evil, there is positive or negative outcomes from actions though.

      Stopping Altmer from destroying Mundus by any and all means (except destroying Mundus)?

      Positive outcome.


      Back at Tiber's time (and in ESO), the Thalmor were different. They didn't want to destroy the world, they just wanted to unite all Mer. The 4th Era Thalmor are totally different. They have almost nothing in common with the 2nd Era Thalmor, so Tiber didn't exactly stop them from destroying Mundus.

      They are different, but only in method. You're right in that the early Thalmor wouldn't have the same goal of eradicating mankind that the current era Thalmor do, but they are still Altmer supremacists. Their goal is to force their culture on all races, not just to unite mer. One of their reports criticizes the Khajiit care-free lifestyle, and suggests implementing schools of Altmeri origin. They may not be as extreme as they are in the 4th Era, but they still work to make their culture the ONLY culture. I'll give you that they're not the same genocidal bunch we know from Skyrim, but claiming that "they just wanted to unite all Mer" is far from the truth.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      They wouldn't. Ayrenn literally says that her goal is to unite all Mer, that's it.

      By the way, destroying Mundus and Lorkhan and Humans would be much worse than enslaving all Humans. The goal of the 4th Era Thalmor is to not only reset the Kalpa to the Dawn Era, but to also erase Lorkhan and Humans from the pattern of possibility, which means that they'd be gone for good.

      That isn't the way what she says sounds like;

      "I have no hatred for the races of Man, but they are young. Like all children, they are driven by emotion. They lack the wisdom that comes with age. I would sooner place an Altmer infant on the Ruby Throne than surrender Tamriel to their capricious whims."

      Sounds to me like she and it follows those who think like her have aspirations for ALL of Tamriel and not just stoping at uniting all Mer.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:

      By the way, destroying Mundus and Lorkhan and Humans would be much worse than enslaving all Humans. The goal of the 4th Era Thalmor is to not only reset the Kalpa to the Dawn Era, but to also erase Lorkhan and Humans from the pattern of possibility, which means that they'd be gone for good.

      Agreed but I feel it is two sides of the same coin, difference of degree not kind.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:

      Back at Tiber's time (and in ESO), the Thalmor were different. They didn't want to destroy the world, they just wanted to unite all Mer. The 4th Era Thalmor are totally different. They have almost nothing in common with the 2nd Era Thalmor, so Tiber didn't exactly stop them from destroying Mundus.

      Uniting all Mer would clearly have a negative outcome for Tamriel going on precedence on where such attempts have led before.

      ummm how is that a bad thing? you could turn it around and say uniting all the mortals could be bad too. Elves have always been a smart and educated people so i wouldnt see the harm in an elven lead empire as opposed to an imperial one, in fact with such a high priority on magic training and education, it might be better

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      ummm how is that a bad thing? you could turn it around and say uniting all the mortals could be bad too. Elves have always been a smart and educated people so i wouldnt see the harm in an elven lead empire as opposed to an imperial one, in fact with such a high priority on magic training and education, it might be better

      It's a bad thing because after uniting all elves, they would then turn around and try to either kill or enslave all non-elves.

      That's what has always happened before.

      Sure you could do that though it isn't the same.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      99.105.83.169 wrote:

      ummm how is that a bad thing? you could turn it around and say uniting all the mortals could be bad too. Elves have always been a smart and educated people so i wouldnt see the harm in an elven lead empire as opposed to an imperial one, in fact with such a high priority on magic training and education, it might be better

      It's a bad thing because after uniting all elves, they would then turn around and try to either kill or enslave all non-elves.

      That's what has always happened before.

      Sure you could do that though it isn't the same.

      So its ok for the Empire to allow the Dunmer to keep Argonians and Khajiit as slaves? because that must be the right thing to do....

      and were the Imperials/nords/mortals were right by forcing all other nations to join their empire with military force offerinfg no other option? only time they stopped conquering was when the Septims saw Morrwind had gods supplimenting their army and black marsh was nearly impossible to get through. 

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Eh, I noticed that people seem to think that Tiber Septim was a good person. He wasn't. He did some quite questionable things, such as forcing Barenziah to abort.

      Just sayin'.


      THIS! Tiber was not a good guy, he was a conqueror, and conquerors are NOT good people in general. You're slaghterting people, and taking things like land that isn't yours. Pretty much inherently BAD lol. In some ways, no better than the Thalmor.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:
      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      99.105.83.169 wrote:

      ummm how is that a bad thing? you could turn it around and say uniting all the mortals could be bad too. Elves have always been a smart and educated people so i wouldnt see the harm in an elven lead empire as opposed to an imperial one, in fact with such a high priority on magic training and education, it might be better

      It's a bad thing because after uniting all elves, they would then turn around and try to either kill or enslave all non-elves.

      That's what has always happened before.

      Sure you could do that though it isn't the same.

      So its ok for the Empire to allow the Dunmer to keep Argonians and Khajiit as slaves? because that must be the right thing to do....

      and were the Imperials/nords/mortals were right by forcing all other nations to join their empire with military force offerinfg no other option? only time they stopped conquering was when the Septims saw Morrwind had gods supplimenting their army and black marsh was nearly impossible to get through. 

      Tiber Septim didn't stop at Morrowind OR Black Marsh. The Tribunal surrendered to the Empire and gave the Numindium to Tiber Septim as a gift. And Black Marsh was still conquered, he just avoided attacking the "strategically unimportant" inner swamps. Then, using the Numindium, he conquered the Summerset Isles. Tiber Septim successfully united ALL of Tamriel. Some nations joined willingly, others were forced to surrender. There was no stopping.

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    • 70.34.133.250 wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Eh, I noticed that people seem to think that Tiber Septim was a good person. He wasn't. He did some quite questionable things, such as forcing Barenziah to abort.

      Just sayin'.

      THIS! Tiber was not a good guy, he was a conqueror, and conquerors are NOT good people in general. You're slaghterting people, and taking things like land that isn't yours. Pretty much inherently BAD lol. In some ways, no better than the Thalmor.

      If that's your qualifications for what bad is, then you just ruled out pretty much every single nation in Tamriel. Aside from Black Marsh and MAYBE Elsweyr, every single nation has a history of war, slaughter, and conquering. Here are some things about Tiber Septim's success that you cannot deny:

      • The unification of Tamriel ended war between the nations
      • With the Dragonblood Emperors restored to the throne, the Dragonfires remained lit and prevented invasions from Oblivion like during the Interregum, or the Oblivion Crisis (until the eventual assassination of Uriel Septim).
      • Despite being ruled by an Empire, most nations were allowed autonomy and freedom of religion.
      • A level of peace and prosperity that hadn't existed before then.
      • Rebuilt Cyrodil which had suffered from 400 years of war

      Yes, he did do some horrible things, especially to Barenziah and potentially Wulfharth. But even with all of that, he is still far better than the Thalmor. He wasn't genocidal, and he did allow a level of autonomy and free religion to the conquered nations.

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    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      70.34.133.250 wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Eh, I noticed that people seem to think that Tiber Septim was a good person. He wasn't. He did some quite questionable things, such as forcing Barenziah to abort.

      Just sayin'.

      THIS! Tiber was not a good guy, he was a conqueror, and conquerors are NOT good people in general. You're slaghterting people, and taking things like land that isn't yours. Pretty much inherently BAD lol. In some ways, no better than the Thalmor.
      If that's your qualifications for what bad is, then you just ruled out pretty much every single nation in Tamriel. Aside from Black Marsh and MAYBE Elsweyr, every single nation has a history of war, slaughter, and conquering. Here are some things about Tiber Septim's success that you cannot deny:
      • The unification of Tamriel ended war between the nations
      • With the Dragonblood Emperors restored to the throne, the Dragonfires remained lit and prevented invasions from Oblivion like during the Interregum, or the Oblivion Crisis (until the eventual assassination of Uriel Septim).
      • Despite being ruled by an Empire, most nations were allowed autonomy and freedom of religion.
      • A level of peace and prosperity that hadn't existed before then.
      • Rebuilt Cyrodil which had suffered from 400 years of war

      Yes, he did do some horrible things, especially to Barenziah and potentially Wulfharth. But even with all of that, he is still far better than the Thalmor. He wasn't genocidal, and he did allow a level of autonomy and free religion to the conquered nations.

      Agreed. Tiber was a generally horrible person, but atleast he brought peace to Tamriel (for a while). What he did is also definetly not as bad as what the Thalmor want to do.

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    • Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK

      That's just pants-on-head retarded. The Thalmor, and their alleged threat to all of Tamriel is a joke anyway. It's bad lore is what it is. Not even remotely feasible with what we've been given here. There's NO WAY one race of Mer, who reproduce slower than the races of men too btw, would be able to conquer Tamriel as it is today. It's just silliness. The W-GC is just dumb and contradicts a lot of other lore on the subject. The Thalmor were destroyed "to the last man/woman" in Cyrodiil, and even AFTER throwing Hammerfell under the bus with the W-GC(one of MANY moronic clauses of said treaty that nobody would ever agree too AFTER victory), which was also AFTER the Thalmor in Cyrodiil were destroyed, the Redguards ALONE held them off for 5 years.

      There is no way in heaven, hell, or on God's green Earth the Thalmor could NOT be in far worse shape than the Empire right now. They reproduce slower than men anyway, and the Empire's been recovering for 5 years while the Thalmor continued to fight ther Redguards. It's simply not possible with the lore we're given here. It's just dumb. Period. The Redguards got a deal that basically says, "YOU! THALMOR! OUT AND DON'T COME BACK!", and the WC-C? After destroying the Thalmor invaders to the last the Empire bends over and spreads cheeks? Really? That's just retarded is all it is.

      All than nonsense in game about "the Thalmor would've destroyed the empire if the W-GC wasn't signed", is just that. Nonsense. How, pray tell, were the Thalmor gonna accomplish this when they can't even conquer JUST Hammerfell by itself? One nation of said empire?

      "In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil.", and we know those forces were destroyed to the last. Then there's their failure in Hammerfell too. They're 0-2 over in Tamriel atm. So where in the hell are the Thalmor gonna get the troops to destroy the empire if they told them to shove that WG-C up their high elf asses? The only FEASIBLE answer to that is they can't do that at all in fact because they would be the ones that would be ready to fall, not the empire. There is NO WAY the Dominion wouldn't be a lot weaker than the empire atm. It's just all dumb like i've repeatedly said here.

        Loading editor
    • 70.34.133.250 wrote:
      Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK
      That's just pants-on-head retarded. The Thalmor, and their alleged threat to all of Tamriel is a joke anyway. It's bad lore is what it is. Not even remotely feasible with what we've been given here. There's NO WAY one race of Mer, who reproduce slower than the races of men too btw, would be able to conquer Tamriel as it is today. It's just silliness. The W-GC is just dumb and contradicts a lot of other lore on the subject. The Thalmor were destroyed "to the last man/woman" in Cyrodiil, and even AFTER throwing Hammerfell under the bus with the W-GC(one of MANY moronic clauses of said treaty that nobody would ever agree too AFTER victory), which was also AFTER the Thalmor in Cyrodiil were destroyed, the Redguards ALONE held them off for 5 years.

      There is no way in heaven, hell, or on God's green Earth the Thalmor could NOT be in far worse shape than the Empire right now. They reproduce slower than men anyway, and the Empire's been recovering for 5 years while the Thalmor continued to fight ther Redguards. It's simply not possible with the lore we're given here. It's just dumb. Period. The Redguards got a deal that basically says, "YOU! THALMOR! OUT AND DON'T COME BACK!", and the WC-C? After destroying the Thalmor invaders to the last the Empire bends over and spreads cheeks? Really? That's just retarded is all it is.

      All than nonsense in game about "the Thalmor would've destroyed the empire if the W-GC wasn't signed", is just that. Nonsense. How, pray tell, were the Thalmor gonna accomplish this when they can't even conquer JUST Hammerfell by itself? One nation of said empire?

      "In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil.", and we know those forces were destroyed to the last. Then there's their failure in Hammerfell too. They're 0-2 over in Tamriel atm. So where in the hell are the Thalmor gonna get the troops to destroy the empire if they told them to shove that WG-C up their high elf asses? The only FEASIBLE answer to that is they can't do that at all in fact because they would be the ones that would be ready to fall, not the empire. There is NO WAY the Dominion wouldn't be a lot weaker than the empire atm. It's just all dumb like i've repeatedly said here.

      So... your whole point is that Altmer reproduce slower than Humans (which is wrong, by the way)? You know, the Thalmor managed to almost destroy the Empire. The Empire is extremely weak in 4E 201 (not only because of the Stormcloak rebellion in Skyrim). Also, the Aldmeri Dominion has extremely powerful mages at their disposal, Khajiiti and Bosmeri Scouts, Imga Soldiers and several other things which give them an advantage.

      And it's quite obvious that the Aldmeri Dominion is in a better shape than the Empire, since Alinor was never directly attacked during the Great War (so, no buildings were destroyed). Cyrodiil, on the other hand, was almost totally destroyed.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Agreed. Tiber was a generally horrible person, but atleast he brought peace to Tamriel (for a while). What he did is also definetly not as bad as what the Thalmor want to do.

      I honestly believe that the things he did were done in order to maintain the Empire. I can't really find anything that he did for his immediate benefit alone. He forced Barenziah to miscarry because he wanted to ensure that his son couldn't be contested for the throne. And most of the lore that says Tiber betrayed Wulfharth comes from the controversial Arcturian Heresey, which may or may not be partially, mostly, or even completely falsified.

      In his defense, Tiber never exactly had the chance to be a "person". His duties as both a soldier and an Emperor were all-consuming. He was always an Emperor first, and a human second.

        Loading editor
    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      70.34.133.250 wrote:
      Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK
      That's just pants-on-head retarded. The Thalmor, and their alleged threat to all of Tamriel is a joke anyway. It's bad lore is what it is. Not even remotely feasible with what we've been given here. There's NO WAY one race of Mer, who reproduce slower than the races of men too btw, would be able to conquer Tamriel as it is today. It's just silliness. The W-GC is just dumb and contradicts a lot of other lore on the subject. The Thalmor were destroyed "to the last man/woman" in Cyrodiil, and even AFTER throwing Hammerfell under the bus with the W-GC(one of MANY moronic clauses of said treaty that nobody would ever agree too AFTER victory), which was also AFTER the Thalmor in Cyrodiil were destroyed, the Redguards ALONE held them off for 5 years.

      There is no way in heaven, hell, or on God's green Earth the Thalmor could NOT be in far worse shape than the Empire right now. They reproduce slower than men anyway, and the Empire's been recovering for 5 years while the Thalmor continued to fight ther Redguards. It's simply not possible with the lore we're given here. It's just dumb. Period. The Redguards got a deal that basically says, "YOU! THALMOR! OUT AND DON'T COME BACK!", and the WC-C? After destroying the Thalmor invaders to the last the Empire bends over and spreads cheeks? Really? That's just retarded is all it is.

      All than nonsense in game about "the Thalmor would've destroyed the empire if the W-GC wasn't signed", is just that. Nonsense. How, pray tell, were the Thalmor gonna accomplish this when they can't even conquer JUST Hammerfell by itself? One nation of said empire?

      "In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil.", and we know those forces were destroyed to the last. Then there's their failure in Hammerfell too. They're 0-2 over in Tamriel atm. So where in the hell are the Thalmor gonna get the troops to destroy the empire if they told them to shove that WG-C up their high elf asses? The only FEASIBLE answer to that is they can't do that at all in fact because they would be the ones that would be ready to fall, not the empire. There is NO WAY the Dominion wouldn't be a lot weaker than the empire atm. It's just all dumb like i've repeatedly said here.

      So... your whole point is that Altmer reproduce slower than Humans (which is wrong, by the way)? You know, the Thalmor managed to almost destroy the Empire. The Empire is extremely weak in 4E 201 (not only because of the Stormcloak rebellion in Skyrim). Also, the Aldmeri Dominion has extremely powerful mages at their disposal, Khajiiti and Bosmeri Scouts, Imga Soldiers and several other things which give them an advantage.

      And it's quite obvious that the Aldmeri Dominion is in a better shape than the Empire, since Alinor was never directly attacked during the Great War (so, no buildings were destroyed). Cyrodiil, on the other hand, was almost totally destroyed.

      He may be thinking of the Snow Elves, which DID reproduce slower than humans, as that was one of the factors that supposedly led them to starting their war with the Atmorans/Nords. Falmer and Altmer are pretty similar, I suppose it isn't too ridiculous to assume they also share slow growth.

      Although I agree with the entire point of the Dominion still being strong. I'm not even sure where he's getting that line "destroyed to the last" from.

        Loading editor
    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Agreed. Tiber was a generally horrible person, but atleast he brought peace to Tamriel (for a while). What he did is also definetly not as bad as what the Thalmor want to do.
      I honestly believe that the things he did were done in order to maintain the Empire. I can't really find anything that he did for his immediate benefit alone. He forced Barenziah to miscarry because he wanted to ensure that his son couldn't be contested for the throne. And most of the lore that says Tiber betrayed Wulfharth comes from the controversial Arcturian Heresey, which may or may not be partially, mostly, or even completely falsified.

      In his defense, Tiber never exactly had the chance to be a "person". His duties as both a soldier and an Emperor were all-consuming. He was always an Emperor first, and a human second.

      Well, let's assume that the Arcturian Heresy isn't faked. He betrayed Zurin and Wulfharth, in order to power Numidium and in order to make him become a god through an Enatiomorph with them. Also, I'll now take some MK lore in it:

      So, we know from some sources (such as Heimskrs dialogue) that Tiber achieved CHIM. Even though Vivec claims that CHIM is selflessness, it's more like selfishness (evidence being that both Vivec and Talos don't even bother to do something when Tamriel is in danger). Only when a CHIMster really wants something to be gone/altered, he does it (evidence being Tiber removing Cyrodiil's jungle to help his Army and Vivec sticking Muatra into Azura's mouth and then making her vanish in the Trials because she "popped in" and disturbed Vivec). Also, Tiber might have assasinated Cuhlecain, but that's just a guess. So, we can say that Tiber was generally a selfish person.

      I do agree that he had to do questionable things in order to ensure that his Empire is successful (like in RL politics), but he still shouldn't be considered the "uber good super duper friendly guy".

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Dark Jeto wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      Agreed. Tiber was a generally horrible person, but atleast he brought peace to Tamriel (for a while). What he did is also definetly not as bad as what the Thalmor want to do.
      I honestly believe that the things he did were done in order to maintain the Empire. I can't really find anything that he did for his immediate benefit alone. He forced Barenziah to miscarry because he wanted to ensure that his son couldn't be contested for the throne. And most of the lore that says Tiber betrayed Wulfharth comes from the controversial Arcturian Heresey, which may or may not be partially, mostly, or even completely falsified.

      In his defense, Tiber never exactly had the chance to be a "person". His duties as both a soldier and an Emperor were all-consuming. He was always an Emperor first, and a human second.

      Well, let's assume that the Arcturian Heresy isn't faked. He betrayed Zurin and Wulfharth, in order to power Numidium and in order to make him become a god through an Enatiomorph with them. Also, I'll now take some MK lore in it:

      So, we know from some sources (such as Heimskrs dialogue) that Tiber achieved CHIM. Even though Vivec claims that CHIM is selflessness, it's more like selfishness (evidence being that both Vivec and Talos don't even bother to do something when Tamriel is in danger). Only when a CHIMster really wants something to be gone/altered, he does it (evidence being Tiber removing Cyrodiil's jungle to help his Army and Vivec sticking Muatra into Azura's mouth and then making her vanish in the Trials because she "popped in" and disturbed Vivec). Also, Tiber might have assasinated Cuhlecain, but that's just a guess. So, we can say that Tiber was generally a selfish person.

      I do agree that he had to do questionable things in order to ensure that his Empire is successful (like in RL politics), but he still shouldn't be considered the "uber good super duper friendly guy".

      No, but he'd definately be in the top 10 rulers of all time. Building a continental Empire from nothing is not something one easily does.

        Loading editor
    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      So its ok for the Empire to allow the Dunmer to keep Argonians and Khajiit as slaves? because that must be the right thing to do....

      and were the Imperials/nords/mortals were right by forcing all other nations to join their empire with military force offerinfg no other option? only time they stopped conquering was when the Septims saw Morrwind had gods supplimenting their army and black marsh was nearly impossible to get through. 

      Nooo...

      Why would you think that?

      Slavery is a vile practice and I commend the Argonian action for justice against Morrowind but I however have read disturbing things about Thalmor involvement in that which I hope are untrue.


      Yes, yes they were.

        Loading editor
    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      70.34.133.250 wrote:
      Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK
      That's just pants-on-head retarded. The Thalmor, and their alleged threat to all of Tamriel is a joke anyway. It's bad lore is what it is. Not even remotely feasible with what we've been given here. There's NO WAY one race of Mer, who reproduce slower than the races of men too btw, would be able to conquer Tamriel as it is today. It's just silliness. The W-GC is just dumb and contradicts a lot of other lore on the subject. The Thalmor were destroyed "to the last man/woman" in Cyrodiil, and even AFTER throwing Hammerfell under the bus with the W-GC(one of MANY moronic clauses of said treaty that nobody would ever agree too AFTER victory), which was also AFTER the Thalmor in Cyrodiil were destroyed, the Redguards ALONE held them off for 5 years.

      There is no way in heaven, hell, or on God's green Earth the Thalmor could NOT be in far worse shape than the Empire right now. They reproduce slower than men anyway, and the Empire's been recovering for 5 years while the Thalmor continued to fight ther Redguards. It's simply not possible with the lore we're given here. It's just dumb. Period. The Redguards got a deal that basically says, "YOU! THALMOR! OUT AND DON'T COME BACK!", and the WC-C? After destroying the Thalmor invaders to the last the Empire bends over and spreads cheeks? Really? That's just retarded is all it is.

      All than nonsense in game about "the Thalmor would've destroyed the empire if the W-GC wasn't signed", is just that. Nonsense. How, pray tell, were the Thalmor gonna accomplish this when they can't even conquer JUST Hammerfell by itself? One nation of said empire?

      "In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil.", and we know those forces were destroyed to the last. Then there's their failure in Hammerfell too. They're 0-2 over in Tamriel atm. So where in the hell are the Thalmor gonna get the troops to destroy the empire if they told them to shove that WG-C up their high elf asses? The only FEASIBLE answer to that is they can't do that at all in fact because they would be the ones that would be ready to fall, not the empire. There is NO WAY the Dominion wouldn't be a lot weaker than the empire atm. It's just all dumb like i've repeatedly said here.

      So... your whole point is that Altmer reproduce slower than Humans (which is wrong, by the way)? You know, the Thalmor managed to almost destroy the Empire. The Empire is extremely weak in 4E 201 (not only because of the Stormcloak rebellion in Skyrim). Also, the Aldmeri Dominion has extremely powerful mages at their disposal, Khajiiti and Bosmeri Scouts, Imga Soldiers and several other things which give them an advantage.

      And it's quite obvious that the Aldmeri Dominion is in a better shape than the Empire, since Alinor was never directly attacked during the Great War (so, no buildings were destroyed). Cyrodiil, on the other hand, was almost totally destroyed.

      The races of men reproduce faster than the races of mer, always has been so in ES lore. So no, I'm right about that one, and if you think that's my WHOLE point then you can't read lol. In fact, that's the LEAST of my point albiet a very valid part. Read again. Fine, let's say I'm wrong about that reporduction(i'm not though). There is still the fact that ALL OF THEIR AVAILABLE FORCES were committed to the campaign in Cyrodiil, and the rest were in Hammerfell. Both groups got whoopped. The Cyrodiil group was 100% destroyed, and the Hammerfell group was routed badly("suffered very heavy losses") before it was all said and done as well. So who, pray tell,  would even be left for the Thalmor to either defend Alinor from the empire or "destory the empire if they don't sign the WG-C"? So there is no way in HELL the Thalmor wouldn't be way weaker than the empire at that time. 90% of their military has been wiped out. There's no way in HELL the Empire would sign the WG-C as it is. There's no way in HELL they'd throw the Redguards and Nords, the two best men warrior races in Tamriel, under the bus like that after utterly crushing the Thalmor in Cyrodiil. The EMPIRE would be in the driver's seat, not the Thalmor. Since when, in ANYTHING(real or fiction), do the LOSERS dictact peace terms? Never is the correct answer, and that's why it's just one more point for dumb here lol.

      Also, it's not OBVIOUS the Dominion is in better shape. It's flat out DUMB in fact. Not possible. The lore here? Just dumb. In any remotely feasible scenario, the empire WOULD have invaded Alinor/SSI after wiping them out in Tamriel as you mentioned, and since ALL AVAILAVBLE FORCES WERE COMMITTED TO CYRODIIL, where 100% of them were killed, who is left to defend the motherland against an invasion of the combined might of the empire's provinces,, or anyone else for that matter? NO ONE is the only correct answer. The lore on this is dumb, it makes no sense at all, and THAT'S my whole point here.


        Loading editor
    • Also seeing as the Altmer euthanize 9 out 10 children in their magical eugenics program for racial perfection...

      Well, even if they don't breed less than Men that still serves to hold them back.

      And longevity tends to lead to less children and it is a staple of elves in virtually every piece of fantasywork in existance that they can't have as many children as humans.

        Loading editor
    • 70.34.133.250 wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:
      70.34.133.250 wrote:
      Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK
      That's just pants-on-head retarded. The Thalmor, and their alleged threat to all of Tamriel is a joke anyway. It's bad lore is what it is. Not even remotely feasible with what we've been given here. There's NO WAY one race of Mer, who reproduce slower than the races of men too btw, would be able to conquer Tamriel as it is today. It's just silliness. The W-GC is just dumb and contradicts a lot of other lore on the subject. The Thalmor were destroyed "to the last man/woman" in Cyrodiil, and even AFTER throwing Hammerfell under the bus with the W-GC(one of MANY moronic clauses of said treaty that nobody would ever agree too AFTER victory), which was also AFTER the Thalmor in Cyrodiil were destroyed, the Redguards ALONE held them off for 5 years.

      There is no way in heaven, hell, or on God's green Earth the Thalmor could NOT be in far worse shape than the Empire right now. They reproduce slower than men anyway, and the Empire's been recovering for 5 years while the Thalmor continued to fight ther Redguards. It's simply not possible with the lore we're given here. It's just dumb. Period. The Redguards got a deal that basically says, "YOU! THALMOR! OUT AND DON'T COME BACK!", and the WC-C? After destroying the Thalmor invaders to the last the Empire bends over and spreads cheeks? Really? That's just retarded is all it is.

      All than nonsense in game about "the Thalmor would've destroyed the empire if the W-GC wasn't signed", is just that. Nonsense. How, pray tell, were the Thalmor gonna accomplish this when they can't even conquer JUST Hammerfell by itself? One nation of said empire?

      "In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil.", and we know those forces were destroyed to the last. Then there's their failure in Hammerfell too. They're 0-2 over in Tamriel atm. So where in the hell are the Thalmor gonna get the troops to destroy the empire if they told them to shove that WG-C up their high elf asses? The only FEASIBLE answer to that is they can't do that at all in fact because they would be the ones that would be ready to fall, not the empire. There is NO WAY the Dominion wouldn't be a lot weaker than the empire atm. It's just all dumb like i've repeatedly said here.

      So... your whole point is that Altmer reproduce slower than Humans (which is wrong, by the way)? You know, the Thalmor managed to almost destroy the Empire. The Empire is extremely weak in 4E 201 (not only because of the Stormcloak rebellion in Skyrim). Also, the Aldmeri Dominion has extremely powerful mages at their disposal, Khajiiti and Bosmeri Scouts, Imga Soldiers and several other things which give them an advantage.
      And it's quite obvious that the Aldmeri Dominion is in a better shape than the Empire, since Alinor was never directly attacked during the Great War (so, no buildings were destroyed). Cyrodiil, on the other hand, was almost totally destroyed.

      The races of men reproduce faster than the races of mer, always has been so in ES lore. So no, I'm right about that one, and if you think that's my WHOLE point then you can't read lol. In fact, that's the LEAST of my point albiet a very valid part. Read again. Fine, let's say I'm wrong about that reporduction(i'm not though). There is still the fact that ALL OF THEIR AVAILABLE FORCES were committed to the campaign in Cyrodiil, and the rest were in Hammerfell. Both groups got whoopped. The Cyrodiil group was 100% destroyed, and the Hammerfell group was routed badly("suffered very heavy losses") before it was all said and done as well. So who, pray tell,  would even be left for the Thalmor to either defend Alinor from the empire or "destory the empire if they don't sign the WG-C"? So there is no way in HELL the Thalmor wouldn't be way weaker than the empire at that time. 90% of their military has been wiped out. There's no way in HELL the Empire would sign the WG-C as it is. There's no way in HELL they'd throw the Redguards and Nords, the two best men warrior races in Tamriel, under the bus like that after utterly crushing the Thalmor in Cyrodiil. The EMPIRE would be in the driver's seat, not the Thalmor. Since when, in ANYTHING(real or fiction), do the LOSERS dictact peace terms? Never is the correct answer, and that's why it's just one more point for dumb here lol.

      Also, it's not OBVIOUS the Dominion is in better shape. It's flat out DUMB in fact. Not possible. The lore here? Just dumb. In any remotely feasible scenario, the empire WOULD have invaded Alinor/SSI after wiping them out in Tamriel as you mentioned, and since ALL AVAILAVBLE FORCES WERE COMMITTED TO CYRODIIL, where 100% of them were killed, who is left to defend the motherland against an invasion of the combined might of the empire's provinces,, or anyone else for that matter? NO ONE is the only correct answer. The lore on this is dumb, it makes no sense at all, and THAT'S my whole point here.


      Sorry, but just because you consider the lore about the Great War "dumb", doesn't mean that you can change it to your own liking. We know that the Aldmeri Dominion didn't suffer as much as the Empire during the Great War, we also know that Altmer don't reproduce slow (They usually only mate with other Altmer, but they can still have multiple children), 4E 201 is c.a 20-30 years after the Great War, and the Thalmor most certainly did rebuild their Army,

      I also did read your comment. You should learn to get better sources except "I don't like it". Do you not like it that WW2 happened? No? Well, no one does like that, but you can't change history. The same with TES. Just because you don't like a fact, you can't just flat out DENY it. Also, never edit my quote again to post your comment in it.

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    • AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:

      70.34.133.250 wrote:

      The races of men reproduce faster than the races of mer, always has been so in ES lore. So no, I'm right about that one, and if you think that's my WHOLE point then you can't read lol. In fact, that's the LEAST of my point albiet a very valid part. Read again. Fine, let's say I'm wrong about that reporduction(i'm not though). There is still the fact that ALL OF THEIR AVAILABLE FORCES were committed to the campaign in Cyrodiil, and the rest were in Hammerfell. Both groups got whoopped. The Cyrodiil group was 100% destroyed, and the Hammerfell group was routed badly("suffered very heavy losses") before it was all said and done as well. So who, pray tell,  would even be left for the Thalmor to either defend Alinor from the empire or "destory the empire if they don't sign the WG-C"? So there is no way in HELL the Thalmor wouldn't be way weaker than the empire at that time. 90% of their military has been wiped out. There's no way in HELL the Empire would sign the WG-C as it is. There's no way in HELL they'd throw the Redguards and Nords, the two best men warrior races in Tamriel, under the bus like that after utterly crushing the Thalmor in Cyrodiil. The EMPIRE would be in the driver's seat, not the Thalmor. Since when, in ANYTHING(real or fiction), do the LOSERS dictact peace terms? Never is the correct answer, and that's why it's just one more point for dumb here lol. Also, it's not OBVIOUS the Dominion is in better shape. It's flat out DUMB in fact. Not possible. The lore here? Just dumb. In any remotely feasible scenario, the empire WOULD have invaded Alinor/SSI after wiping them out in Tamriel as you mentioned, and since ALL AVAILAVBLE FORCES WERE COMMITTED TO CYRODIIL, where 100% of them were killed, who is left to defend the motherland against an invasion of the combined might of the empire's provinces,, or anyone else for that matter? NO ONE is the only correct answer. The lore on this is dumb, it makes no sense at all, and THAT'S my whole point here.

      Sorry, but just because you consider the lore about the Great War "dumb", doesn't mean that you can change it to your own liking. We know that the Aldmeri Dominion didn't suffer as much as the Empire during the Great War, we also know that Altmer don't reproduce slow (They usually only mate with other Altmer, but they can still have multiple children), 4E 201 is c.a 20-30 years after the Great War, and the Thalmor most certainly did rebuild their Army,

      I also did read your comment. You should learn to get better sources except "I don't like it". Do you not like it that WW2 happened? No? Well, no one does like that, but you can't change history. The same with TES. Just because you don't like a fact, you can't just flat out DENY it. Also, never edit my quote again to post your comment in it.

      Actually, he CAN change it. Remember? MK eliminated canon! I kid of course, let's not go down that road here.

      We should probably stop responding to his posts. He's not going to accept the fact that this lore is in fact THE lore, and he's only going to continue to rant about it the longer we respond to him.

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    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      AngryEnclaveSoldier wrote:

      70.34.133.250 wrote:

      The races of men reproduce faster than the races of mer, always has been so in ES lore. So no, I'm right about that one, and if you think that's my WHOLE point then you can't read lol. In fact, that's the LEAST of my point albiet a very valid part. Read again. Fine, let's say I'm wrong about that reporduction(i'm not though). There is still the fact that ALL OF THEIR AVAILABLE FORCES were committed to the campaign in Cyrodiil, and the rest were in Hammerfell. Both groups got whoopped. The Cyrodiil group was 100% destroyed, and the Hammerfell group was routed badly("suffered very heavy losses") before it was all said and done as well. So who, pray tell,  would even be left for the Thalmor to either defend Alinor from the empire or "destory the empire if they don't sign the WG-C"? So there is no way in HELL the Thalmor wouldn't be way weaker than the empire at that time. 90% of their military has been wiped out. There's no way in HELL the Empire would sign the WG-C as it is. There's no way in HELL they'd throw the Redguards and Nords, the two best men warrior races in Tamriel, under the bus like that after utterly crushing the Thalmor in Cyrodiil. The EMPIRE would be in the driver's seat, not the Thalmor. Since when, in ANYTHING(real or fiction), do the LOSERS dictact peace terms? Never is the correct answer, and that's why it's just one more point for dumb here lol. Also, it's not OBVIOUS the Dominion is in better shape. It's flat out DUMB in fact. Not possible. The lore here? Just dumb. In any remotely feasible scenario, the empire WOULD have invaded Alinor/SSI after wiping them out in Tamriel as you mentioned, and since ALL AVAILAVBLE FORCES WERE COMMITTED TO CYRODIIL, where 100% of them were killed, who is left to defend the motherland against an invasion of the combined might of the empire's provinces,, or anyone else for that matter? NO ONE is the only correct answer. The lore on this is dumb, it makes no sense at all, and THAT'S my whole point here.

      Sorry, but just because you consider the lore about the Great War "dumb", doesn't mean that you can change it to your own liking. We know that the Aldmeri Dominion didn't suffer as much as the Empire during the Great War, we also know that Altmer don't reproduce slow (They usually only mate with other Altmer, but they can still have multiple children), 4E 201 is c.a 20-30 years after the Great War, and the Thalmor most certainly did rebuild their Army,
      I also did read your comment. You should learn to get better sources except "I don't like it". Do you not like it that WW2 happened? No? Well, no one does like that, but you can't change history. The same with TES. Just because you don't like a fact, you can't just flat out DENY it. Also, never edit my quote again to post your comment in it.
      Actually, he CAN change it. Remember? MK eliminated canon! I kid of course, let's not go down that road here.

      We should probably stop responding to his posts. He's not going to accept the fact that this lore is in fact THE lore, and he's only going to continue to rant about it the longer we respond to him.


      Agreed. I guess this User is just one of those constantly denying ones.

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    • Dark Jeto wrote:
      99.105.83.169 wrote:
      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      99.105.83.169 wrote:

      ummm how is that a bad thing? you could turn it around and say uniting all the mortals could be bad too. Elves have always been a smart and educated people so i wouldnt see the harm in an elven lead empire as opposed to an imperial one, in fact with such a high priority on magic training and education, it might be better

      It's a bad thing because after uniting all elves, they would then turn around and try to either kill or enslave all non-elves.

      That's what has always happened before.

      Sure you could do that though it isn't the same.

      So its ok for the Empire to allow the Dunmer to keep Argonians and Khajiit as slaves? because that must be the right thing to do....

      and were the Imperials/nords/mortals were right by forcing all other nations to join their empire with military force offerinfg no other option? only time they stopped conquering was when the Septims saw Morrwind had gods supplimenting their army and black marsh was nearly impossible to get through. 

      Tiber Septim didn't stop at Morrowind OR Black Marsh. The Tribunal surrendered to the Empire and gave the Numindium to Tiber Septim as a gift. And Black Marsh was still conquered, he just avoided attacking the "strategically unimportant" inner swamps. Then, using the Numindium, he conquered the Summerset Isles. Tiber Septim successfully united ALL of Tamriel. Some nations joined willingly, others were forced to surrender. There was no stopping.

      well technically he entered into an alliance with morrowind, they never surrendered, it said in one of the books he was terrified to fight 3 living gods so they occupied part of Morrowind while the Dunmer were allowed to keep their laws and traditions, those were teh terms

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    • To avoid the quote chain, I will just reply to it underneath.

      You are talking about the Treaty of the Armistice. That is the document that was signed. And it was signed because it was beneficial for both parties to sign the armistice - Tiber so he could focus his attention elsewhere, and the Tribunal because it allowed them to gain the benefits of being part of the empire, whilst still getting most of the independence that they wanted in the first place. (Remember Tiber wanted to reunite Tamriel, not rule everyone for the sake of ruling everyone).

      Oh, and remember also, he was largely following in the footsteps of the Reman Empire, which had (technically) signed a peace treaty with Morrowind as well, to end the war. (The technicality bit was due to the assassin of Juliek's - read the 2920 book series if you're interested in that part of history).

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    • Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK

      Who'S MK?

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    • U.F.B. wrote:
      Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK
      Who'S MK?


      MK is the abbreviation for Michael Kirkbride, a former Bethesda Game Designer who still writes a lot of lore for TES.

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    • Timeoin wrote:
      To avoid the quote chain, I will just reply to it underneath.

      You are talking about the Treaty of the Armistice. That is the document that was signed. And it was signed because it was beneficial for both parties to sign the armistice - Tiber so he could focus his attention elsewhere, and the Tribunal because it allowed them to gain the benefits of being part of the empire, whilst still getting most of the independence that they wanted in the first place. (Remember Tiber wanted to reunite Tamriel, not rule everyone for the sake of ruling everyone).

      Oh, and remember also, he was largely following in the footsteps of the Reman Empire, which had (technically) signed a peace treaty with Morrowind as well, to end the war. (The technicality bit was due to the assassin of Juliek's - read the 2920 book series if you're interested in that part of history).

      And that was one of his bigger mistakes, and Remans too.

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    • It was tactically important for him to end the war with the Tribunal quickly, in order to focus on other areas of Tamriel that he had yet to control.

      As for the Remans - well, Juliek did not want war for the sake of war (His father would have continued the war, but Juliek knew that there was no point continuing a war that had already continued for 80 something years.

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    • Dalledayul wrote:
      I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?

      If I may be pardoned for referencing Final fantasy...I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support Sepheroth, or at least try to justify his actions. There's always some nutters who like the villains, whether they be gold-skinned KKK rejects (Thalmor) or homicidally insane assholes with mommy issues (Sepheroth). It is true that I support another "Villain" faction (Stormcloaks), but I have my own reasons.

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    • 75.70.197.80 wrote:
      Dalledayul wrote:
      I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?
      If I may be pardoned for referencing Final fantasy...I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support Sepheroth, or at least try to justify his actions. There's always some nutters who like the villains, whether they be gold-skinned KKK rejects (Thalmor) or homicidally insane assholes with mommy issues (Sepheroth). It is true that I support another "Villain" faction (Stormcloaks), but I have my own reasons.

      Stormcloaks aren't villains, neither are the Imperials there is no black and white in the Civil War, the only true bad guys are the Thalmor.

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    • ScholarOfTheScrolls wrote:
      75.70.197.80 wrote:
      Dalledayul wrote:
      I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?
      If I may be pardoned for referencing Final fantasy...I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support Sepheroth, or at least try to justify his actions. There's always some nutters who like the villains, whether they be gold-skinned KKK rejects (Thalmor) or homicidally insane assholes with mommy issues (Sepheroth). It is true that I support another "Villain" faction (Stormcloaks), but I have my own reasons.
      Stormcloaks aren't villains, neither are the Imperials there is no black and white in the Civil War, the only true bad guys are the Thalmor.

      Even they aren't necessarily villains. By some relatively arbitrary sense of morality, they might be, but, as Nietzche might say, they're only trying to manifest their superiority by breaking free from these "morals" which the meek impose upon the strong in order to suppress them. Thus, what we see as villainy is really the oppressed siezing control of themselves from their oppressors. 


      Not that I entirely agree, but still. 

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    • One of the main reasons I like the Thalmor is the female and male Altmer voice.

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    • Coppermantis wrote:
      ScholarOfTheScrolls wrote:
      75.70.197.80 wrote:
      Dalledayul wrote:
      I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?
      If I may be pardoned for referencing Final fantasy...I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support Sepheroth, or at least try to justify his actions. There's always some nutters who like the villains, whether they be gold-skinned KKK rejects (Thalmor) or homicidally insane assholes with mommy issues (Sepheroth). It is true that I support another "Villain" faction (Stormcloaks), but I have my own reasons.
      Stormcloaks aren't villains, neither are the Imperials there is no black and white in the Civil War, the only true bad guys are the Thalmor.
      Even they aren't necessarily villains. By some relatively arbitrary sense of morality, they might be, but, as Nietzche might say, they're only trying to manifest their superiority by breaking free from these "morals" which the meek impose upon the strong in order to suppress them. Thus, what we see as villainy is really the oppressed siezing control of themselves from their oppressors. 


      Not that I entirely agree, but still. 

      Whilst reading that, I had the mental picture of the peasants scene from Holy Grail. "Help! Help! I'm being oppressed!

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    • Ultimately I cannot see the Thalmor winning anytime soon. They are the ruling party of the Aldemeri Dominion. Not all Altmer hate humans, nor do all the Bosmer and Drummer. They represent only a small fraction of the Altmer. They prefer to keep in the shadows and pull the strings.

      I can generally categorize the Thalmor as evil. (Which in Skyrim I generally kill on site if out in the open). They are the elitist, most racist group of Altmer that their are, and at the moment it is they that are pulling the String of the Aldemeri Dominion.

      At the moment the Human armies are weak, but just as much as the Empire can fall, does not mean a new Empire and Emperor can't rise again. Ultimately hate will backfire against them.

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    • I'm playing through Elder Scrolls Online, as the Aldmeri Dominion. (And because, well, reasons, I'm a Redguard. But that's a different story :P)

      Aaaanyways... the Thalmor in the game are largely the same arrogant Altmer-dominated faction that they were in the Fourth Era. It's an excuse for Altmer Canonreeves and similarly positioned people to lord it over the others in their alliance.

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    • Timeoin
      Timeoin removed this reply because:
      Wrong thread
      19:35, May 9, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • The Ninja Khajiit wrote:
      If you think about it, the goal of the Thalmor is, in the end, world peace.

      yah, so was was hitlers

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    • The title should be why do you hate the thalmor.

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    • To respond to some earlier posts on how the Great War Lore was dumb it was actually very plausible if you look at different accounts of imperialist conflicts such as the rise of Napoleon and WW2 and from economic and political standpoint. The early success of the Elven army is due to the difference between a Nation's Total Strength and their Effective Strength  ( the forces a nation can utilize within a specific theater of war). The 2 nations were effectively in a cold war following the reformation of the Elsweyr Confederacy as part of the Dominion which led to a military buildup.

      Before the Great War the Empire had a greater Total Strength compared to the Dominion, however if you compare the borders they shared before the war (http://images.uesp.net/thumb/c/c3/TamrielMap.jpg/400px-TamrielMap.jpg), you would see that Cyrodill borders both the provinces of Valenwood and Elsweyr which were more stable than other provinces. Despite the concentrated buildup of Dominion forces within these borders that would undoubtedly have been reported by the Blades Agents prior to their execution to start hostilities( bearing in mind that they missed an entire army hidden in Elsweyr), the Empire had to sprawl their legions all over Tamriel to mantain stability.

      This means that they would only be able to spare less than 50%( at the most ) of their forces to the larger border in Cyrodill which shows that the Effective Strength of the Empire within Cyrodill was smaller than the Elves since the Dominion could concentrate their power within only 2 provinces with smaller borders, thus allowing them to quickly overcome whatever border defences the Empire had. Similar to how the Germans bypassed the French Maginot Line. The Elves bypassed numerous garrisons in order to quickly defeat the Legion in Hammerfell, because this was the nearest cohesive Legion the Empire had after being forced to retreat from the border in Cyrodill ( since though they were not routed armies still need to take time to withdraw and regroup following any defeat ).

      The Legion in Hammerfell was forced to move across the desert further decreasing their numbers due to attrition. This left Cyrodill and the Imperial City defended only by the demoralized and weakened Legions they started with and fresh reinforcement from Skyrim which would not have been enough to counter the advance of the Elven Armies who had a much higher morale due to their string of victories. The Empire was forced to retreat North and mobilize all their reserves and recall all their Legions who were still mantaining order as garrisons in other provinces in order to form a cohesive force of men with numbers enough to match the army occupying Cyrodill. This act further destabilized the regions who relied on the Legion to enforce the rule of law.

      The prolonged conflict and loss of their treasury in the Capital would have forced the Empire to cannibalize its own fields to sustain the march back to the Imperial City. The victory in the following battle only meant that the Elves had lost most of their Standing Army but the Empire's Standing AND Reserve army was mostly decimated. The Thalmor could have gathered their Reserves by mobilizing their garrisons and conscripting from the populace if threatened by an Imperial counterattack. The Emperor knew that a counterattack would be impossible because of this and the economy of the Empire could NOT sustain an offensive without cannibalizing his own villages to feed his army ( which was akin to a car running on gas fumes ). Further hostilities would have bankrupted the Empire and cause it's collapse as the Legions could no longer be paid due to the loss of the Imperial Treasury and the Plundering of the White-Gold Tower.

      Relying on war support from his vassals for funds as some would suggest would mean incurring large debts for the Ruby Throne and an increase in decentralization which would have further lessened the Empires ability to react to threats decisively. This meant that the Emperor had to cut his lossed in order to possibly fight the Elves again without the disastrous start of the War due to the Initiative Advantage of the Dominion. As for why the Redguards managed to defeat the Dominion you would have to take the line "Held their Ground." Much less literally. The Elves marched against Hammerfell but the Redguards did not engage them in conventional open combat. The Elves could not march against the Redguards in the desert without knowing the land and they could not march against the Redguards in their cities since the Redguards could easily strike from the desert and disrupt their supply lines, preventing the Dominion from commiting forces in a siege.

      The Redguards applied the doctrine of Total Strength vs Effective Strength on a smaller scale. The Dominion could not commit all its forces to Hammerfell because the deserts drastically lowered the limit in wich they could deploy soldiers without them dying of attrition, while the Redguards used scorched earth tactics similar to the Russians against Napoleon and in WW2, only using the heat of the desert intead of Russian Winter against the Elves. Also many legionnaires were left behind by General Decianus which allowed the Redguards a second wind in their guerrila war against the Dominion. Unable to occupy the province and unwilling to abandon it for the first 5 years the invaders faced swift harrassing tactics from the locals that forced them to withdraw. Hammerfell was free but they were forced to devastate their own lands to force the elves back.

      The relatively undamaged Elven economy due to the fact that their core territories were left untouched by the War means that the Elves are in a better postion to rebuild their forces in preparation for the next Great War unlike the Empire which was struggling to get back on its feet and rebuild Cyrodill.

      Edit: made it more readable with paragraphs

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    • TL:DR

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    • In the future, I'd advise making large texts into paragraph breaks to make it more digestible. That's a bit of a monstrosity to read.


      That said, if I understand correctly, you seem to make a curious point. The Aldmeri armies were divided into two main battle groups, one under Lord Naarfin that attacked Cyrodiil, and another under Lady Arannelya. This means that the Elves were also fighting at a roughly 50% "effective strength" at any given point, the Legion was equally spread out, even more so due to the relative provincial autonomy, i.e., legions in Hammerfell especially were fighting independently of those in Cyrodiil since the only way for Hammerfell to keep mounting a resistance was for the legions there to be declared invalid, while Naarfin and Arannelya were likely coordinating. 

      This proved a disadvantage during the Battle of the Red Ring, though, where Naarfin's forces were unable to draw on those within Arannelya's army (at least this is how I interpret "he called on all available forces," since the utter defeat at that battle would have spelled doom for the Dominion had all their armies been there.). As such, he was able to be outmaneuvered by the relatively fresh Nord legions and those arriving from Hammerfell and thus defeated. 

      One wonders if it might have been tactically advantageous for the army under Arannelya to enter the battle to support Naarfin. The Emperor was able to drive out the Elves by abandoning the city temporarily in order to regroup and launch an attack against his own, now occupied territory. This gave him a lot of well-needed momentum and, though Naarfin now had a defender's advantage, it effectively pinned down his army, which was formerly designed for an offensive operation, not point defense. Had Arannelya been involved, though, despite her losses at the hands of the Alik'r and remaining Legion defenders in Hammerfell, she could have conducted the same operation against Mede and the legions, performing her own offensive strike against the backs of the attacking armies, sandwiching them inbetween the two Aldmeri battle groups. With their vulnerable stern under attack, the legion's own assault would have been made much less effective, and the vanguard would likely have been crushed while the sternguard were occupied with Arannelya's army. 


      The comparison to the Maginot line is apt, except that Belgium was neutral, and France did not expect an attack from that direction. The Empire, by contrast, new that Elsewyr and Valenwood were Dominion holdings and most likely prepared accordingly. 

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    • I apologize for the lack of paragraph breaks. It was midnight and I ran out of coffee and only the need to respond to some earlier posts kept me going so you could say I was in rant mode.


      Arannelya would have been hardpressed to aid Naarfin due to the "invalids" within Hammerfell that could have negated any gains she could have managed to take within Hammerfell.


      The Maginot Line was not entirely apt but it was the closest reference point I could think of. However though the Empire prepared for the attack it is worth noting that the army under Arannelya bypassed the garrisons the Legion prepared within SouthWestern Cyrodill because she knew that the scattered and disparate garrisons posed no threat to her army which comprised of half the effective strength of the Dominion.


      In a way she just plowed through the undermanned Imperial version of the Maginot Line and caught the Legion gathering in Hammerfell by surprise. If the garrisons had been able to coordinate they could have gathered to from a force large enough to delay Arannelya's advance but as far as they possibly knew the Legion guarding the SouthEastern Cyrodill could have move to intercept her, not knowing that Naarfin had already broken said Legion. By the time they realized what had happened and only they stood between the Thalmor and the mustering Legion in Southern Hammerfell Arannelya was already in the middle of the Forts holding the garrisons.


      They could no longer march out of their forts in order to launch delaying operations because the Dominion was already marching pass their gates and any attempt to leave would only mean that each small garrison marching out to delay would be separated from each other and would be swallowed up by the Dominion Army.

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    • Having just made an account I hereby claim the post by a Wikia Contributor before this one regarding the Validity of the Great War Lore and the other post of mine with no paragraph breaks.


      In response to another post above.

      No. Hammerfell does not border the Dominion as North of Valenwood is the Cyrodillic cities of Kvatch and Anvil. To besiege it the Dominion would have had to ferry soldiers and supplies from Summerset Isle further preventing prolonged military operations when added to the Hammerfell guerrilas.  

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    • "Why do people like the Thalmor?", the better question is more like "Why would you like the Thalmor?" 

      I'm just kidding, everyone's entitled to their own opinions so if you think that it's okay to destroy the human race and ban worshipping a HUMAN god simply because elves can't stand a human god, then fine by me, I won't mind.

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    • 112.205.1.171 wrote:

      Arannelya would have been hardpressed to aid Naarfin due to the "invalids" within Hammerfell that could have negated any gains she could have managed to take within Hammerfell

      She'd already lost all her gains and had retreated all the way across the Alik'r desert. She stood to lose nothing by that point. 

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    • Coppermantis wrote:

      112.205.1.171 wrote:

      Arannelya would have been hardpressed to aid Naarfin due to the "invalids" within Hammerfell that could have negated any gains she could have managed to take within Hammerfell

      She'd already lost all her gains and had retreated all the way across the Alik'r desert. She stood to lose nothing by that point. 

      And by supporting Naarfin she would have been assaulted from behind by the Redguards within Hammerfell. It was a risk that could have mantained the Thalmor edge in the war or negated it completely so she chose to make a token effort to aid Naarfin before withdrawing.

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    • Arannelya believed that General Decianus was still in Hammerfell and so needed to continue fighting. She did not know that he had headed east towards the Capital. She did however respond to Naarfin by sending the garrisons of Occupied Southwest Cyrodill to the Imperial City but they were held off by Nord Legionnaires.

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    • Hmm. If that's true, then I'm not as knowledgable about the Great War than I'd thought. 112.205.1.171 makes a good point. 

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    • Could someone please explain this whole conspiracy of the Thalmor trying to undo Creation or something like that? I've never heard it in Skyrim or anywhere else except on this site. 

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    • In a nutshell, the mortal plane is kept separate from Oblivion by mystical towers (not always literally towers; the giant robot Numidum and the Throat of the World are among the list). The Thalmor want to deactivate the towers, thus causing Mundus to phase into oblivion, destroying the mortal plane and, theoretically, allowing the Altmer to re-ascend to divinity.

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    • The Altmer, & by extension the Thalmor, are masterful tacticians, experienced wizards, long-lived, and advanced in culture.

      Despite the arrogance, many people find the elves fascinating to a degree.

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    • Pelinal Whitestrake
      Pelinal Whitestrake removed this reply because:
      Pointless
      12:05, June 3, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Pelinal Whitestrake
      Pelinal Whitestrake removed this reply because:
      Pointless
      12:05, June 3, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • What if I said I was a Neo - Nazi?

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    •  

      I don't like the thalmor, they destroy all of man in the fith era, would've made the nords feel bad.


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    • Can't we all just get along T-T

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    • 50.148.104.223 wrote:
      Can't we all just get along T-T

      Now where's the fun in that. But the real answer to this question is, because some peoples minds are just messed up.

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    • screw the men and mer let the argonians and kajeets  rules

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    • The Thalmor's actions are perfectly justified. All they are trying to do is stop an all ready weak empire from becoming even weaker. They hate the blades because the blades let Uriel Septin die. They failed. The dominion wanted to stop anything like the Oblivion Crisis ever happening again. It wasn't to get powerfull, but to protect nirn. Who knows what would happen if the Oblivion Crisis were to repeat itself. Dagon had the intention to end the mortal realm as we know it. Who's to say he wouldn't try again, given the opportunity? To anyone who thinks that they shouldn't ban Talos worship, Talos is evil. Tiber Septim murdered innocent Reachmen, just so he could own the reach. In fact, there are some things he did that are too disgusting and cruel to even think about. The Aldmeri Dominion don't want people worshipping a man who committed genocide (and worse). Talos may be a god, but that doesn't mean he's a good one. If they convince people Talos isn't a god, less people will worship him. And, they saved Elswyr. When the moons disappeared, khajiit were terrified. Khajiit worshipped the moons, and their gods had disappeared. The Dominion used dawn magics to bring the moons back, thus savning Elswyr. Not only are they protectors, but also savoirs. And if you're gonna try and spring Ancano on me, that was one guy! Just becuase Ancano was evil, doesn't mean all Thalmor are. And if you think Malborn's family being killed was bad, there's probably a reasonable explanation. We only heared Delphine's side of the story. By Azura, that was a long rant!

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    • I'm fairly certain the Thalmor's goal is either a) to make a new Merethic Era with them as the rulers of Tamriel or b) destroy the Towers (depending on whether you believe Kirkbride's writings are canon or not), but I haven't seen a source for them wanting to stop the Empire from getting weaker and stop another Oblivion Crisis (which can't happen again, since Martin's sacrifice permanently sealed off Oblivion Gates).

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      I'm fairly certain the Thalmor's goal is either a) to make a new Merethic Era with them as the rulers of Tamriel or b) destroy the Towers (depending on whether you believe Kirkbride's writings are canon or not), but I haven't seen a source for them wanting to stop the Empire from getting weaker and stop another Oblivion Crisis (which can't happen again, since Martin's sacrifice permanently sealed off Oblivion Gates).

      I see what you mean about the Oblivion Crisis (thanks for pointing that out), but the empire does kinda need sorting out. I know that they wanna rule nirn, but that plan only started recently. In ESO, they seem ok. Maybe Ellenwyn's a corrupt leader, but I still think Talos was evil. Thanks for correcting me.

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    • Well ESO takes place about 800 years before Skyrim (2nd Era vs 4th Era), so the Dominion was quite different back then :P

      In ESO it's the First Dominion, and the Thalmor back then genuinely wanted to work with the Bosmer and Khajiit for a better future, and they were equals. In Skyrim, though... the Third Dominion version of the Thalmor see the Bosmer and Khajiit as "lesser races" and see them only as servants for the Altmer :/

      If you played ESO you know about the Veiled Heritance, right? Those Altmer supremascists. I think somewhere between ESO and Skyrim they took control of the Thalmor, and that's why the organization changed so drastically.

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    • The mer are simply superior to men in almost every way. There are 10 elven races most of which make human races obsolete.

      I mostly like the Thalmor because I hate the stormcloaks and only partly like the empire.

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    • Romans > 3rd Aldemeri dominion that is all btw "Talos took over tamriel so it's ok for the thalmor to do it!" is not a defence especially because talos didn't intend to commit mass murder after his conquest was complete 

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    • The Thalmor are what the Stormcloaks would have been if they were Elves and they had brains.

      Quite literally, they started off as rebels who overthrew the pro-Imperial Elven rulers, replaced them with rulers who see Elven traditions and purity as the goal, and they waged war against the Empire, just like the Stormcloaks did. The only difference is, the Thalmor were actually smart about it, utilizing every asset they can get and using deceit and trickery along with brute force to accomplish their goals.

      While Ulfric was a meathead who got himself captured twice and had no actual military accomplishments of his own other than killing a boy-king that could easily have been an ally, the Thalmor successfully overthrew the pro-Imperial Elven rulers, they formed the Aldmeri Dominion, and strong-armed the Wood Elves into an alliance while they fooled the Khajits into joining them. Then, they waged war on the Empire by giving the Emperor the heads of the Blades operatives in Aldmeri territory as a gift and proceeded to hand the Empire its ass during the war, to the point where the Empire was forced to sign a disadvantageous truce.

      The Thalmor are what the Stormcloaks should have been: smart but bigoted rebels that can overthrow an Empire and start one of their own. Instead, the Stormcloaks made more enemies than allies when Ulfric killed King Torygg, their tactics amount to charging in and the occasional ambush, and if the opening to Skyrim was any indication, Ulfric would have lost had it not been for Alduin saving his ass unintentionally.

      And unlike the Thalmor, who got the Wood Elves and the Khajits to join them, the Stormcloaks make no appeals to other races, even though Morrowind is closer to their side of Skyrim and the Argonians are also independent of the Empire. They also make no appeals to the Thieves' Guild or the College of Winterhold to gain the support of those factions, which means the Stormcloaks could have monopolized Skyrim's magic for themselves and gained some Thieves' Guild agents for their war, but didn't do it. Which goes to show that when comparing the Thalmor to the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor are obviously smarter, and in a stand-up fight, not only with Elven steel and magic prevail against Stormcloak brawn, but the Thalmor would have ten different ways to outsmart Ulfric before he even steps on the battlefield. He'll get captured again, and the Dragonborn and Galmar will have to run the Stormcloak war effort against the Thalmor while "Princess Ulfric" spends the war in another castle.

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    • Dalledayul wrote: I've always been confused by why pretty much anyone would like or support the Thalmor, or at least try to justify their actions. So to anyone who thinks this way: why do you like the Thalmor?

      Because the Thalmor are badass.

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    • 70.34.133.250 wrote:
      Jimeee wrote:
      For any Thalmor haters:
      Quotebg
      "The Thalmor is easily the most dangerous organization in the Aurbis. Moreso than Talos. They cannot be understood. They are the Other and they hate everything that even smells like mortality. And they're going to win in the end."
      ―MK
      That's just pants-on-head retarded. The Thalmor, and their alleged threat to all of Tamriel is a joke anyway. It's bad lore is what it is. Not even remotely feasible with what we've been given here. There's NO WAY one race of Mer, who reproduce slower than the races of men too btw, would be able to conquer Tamriel as it is today. It's just silliness. The W-GC is just dumb and contradicts a lot of other lore on the subject. The Thalmor were destroyed "to the last man/woman" in Cyrodiil, and even AFTER throwing Hammerfell under the bus with the W-GC(one of MANY moronic clauses of said treaty that nobody would ever agree too AFTER victory), which was also AFTER the Thalmor in Cyrodiil were destroyed, the Redguards ALONE held them off for 5 years.

      There is no way in heaven, hell, or on God's green Earth the Thalmor could NOT be in far worse shape than the Empire right now. They reproduce slower than men anyway, and the Empire's been recovering for 5 years while the Thalmor continued to fight ther Redguards. It's simply not possible with the lore we're given here. It's just dumb. Period. The Redguards got a deal that basically says, "YOU! THALMOR! OUT AND DON'T COME BACK!", and the WC-C? After destroying the Thalmor invaders to the last the Empire bends over and spreads cheeks? Really? That's just retarded is all it is.

      All than nonsense in game about "the Thalmor would've destroyed the empire if the W-GC wasn't signed", is just that. Nonsense. How, pray tell, were the Thalmor gonna accomplish this when they can't even conquer JUST Hammerfell by itself? One nation of said empire?

      "In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil.", and we know those forces were destroyed to the last. Then there's their failure in Hammerfell too. They're 0-2 over in Tamriel atm. So where in the hell are the Thalmor gonna get the troops to destroy the empire if they told them to shove that WG-C up their high elf asses? The only FEASIBLE answer to that is they can't do that at all in fact because they would be the ones that would be ready to fall, not the empire. There is NO WAY the Dominion wouldn't be a lot weaker than the empire atm. It's just all dumb like i've repeatedly said here.


      Exactly what I have been thinking. Even the False Emperor (Titus Mede II.) Defeated half the Dominion main army when retaking the Imperial Capital, most of the other half perished in Hammerfells desert and then he all of sudden sign a very humilating treaty while having the upper hand.. The Dominion must have bribed him with all gold they could spare.. I mean thats when they should have striken back and pursue the dominion forces all the way back to summerset isle, invade it and not accepting anything other than unconditional surrender. Or hire the Dark Brotherhood to assasinate the Thalmor Leadership?

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    • It's easy to sympathize with some of them. I mean, high elves live a lot (sometimes, even "A LOOOOT"). I bet some are still alive to remember Tiber Septim massacring their kin for the sake of conquering all of Tamriel. The Empire of Cyrodiil, of which the origins relate somewhat to the Alessian Order (who hated non-humans). Now consider an elf, looking at a human who lives maybe 1/5 of their usual lifetime, limited in terms of magic and prone to violence and genocide. Then consider that the elves were forced into worshiping Septim as a god. Now consider that the elves were already pissed at the fact they are no longer gods (in their view anyway) from the start.

      In short, the Thalmor's ways are easy to understand, because they see humans as some kind of "cancer" in the world, and don't want to worship one of them. Not unlike Ysgramor's quest against elves, the Thalmor want their own "justified genocide". Looking at Skyrim only, they are unjustifiable, but looking at their history, not as much.

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    • The Thalmor goal is NOT to conquer Tamriel. Their goal is to return to the Dawn Era so that they (everyone) can be immortal again.

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    • Gobi-Aoi wrote: It's easy to sympathize with some of them. I mean, high elves live a lot (sometimes, even "A LOOOOT"). I bet some are still alive to remember Tiber Septim massacring their kin for the sake of conquering all of Tamriel. The Empire of Cyrodiil, of which the origins relate somewhat to the Alessian Order (who hated non-humans). Now consider an elf, looking at a human who lives maybe 1/5 of their usual lifetime, limited in terms of magic and prone to violence and genocide. Then consider that the elves were forced into worshiping Septim as a god. Now consider that the elves were already pissed at the fact they are no longer gods (in their view anyway) from the start.

      In short, the Thalmor's ways are easy to understand, because they see humans as some kind of "cancer" in the world, and don't want to worship one of them. Not unlike Ysgramor's quest against elves, the Thalmor want their own "justified genocide". Looking at Skyrim only, they are unjustifiable, but looking at their history, not as much.

      The problem is, Talos was accepted by the other Aedric gods as one of their own. So the Altmer can bitch against Talos all they want, their beloved Auri-El accepted Talos as a brother and a friend. And trying to bar him is against the will of the Aedra.

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Gobi-Aoi wrote: It's easy to sympathize with some of them. I mean, high elves live a lot (sometimes, even "A LOOOOT"). I bet some are still alive to remember Tiber Septim massacring their kin for the sake of conquering all of Tamriel. The Empire of Cyrodiil, of which the origins relate somewhat to the Alessian Order (who hated non-humans). Now consider an elf, looking at a human who lives maybe 1/5 of their usual lifetime, limited in terms of magic and prone to violence and genocide. Then consider that the elves were forced into worshiping Septim as a god. Now consider that the elves were already pissed at the fact they are no longer gods (in their view anyway) from the start.

      In short, the Thalmor's ways are easy to understand, because they see humans as some kind of "cancer" in the world, and don't want to worship one of them. Not unlike Ysgramor's quest against elves, the Thalmor want their own "justified genocide". Looking at Skyrim only, they are unjustifiable, but looking at their history, not as much.

      The problem is, Talos was accepted by the other Aedric gods as one of their own. So the Altmer can bitch against Talos all they want, their beloved Auri-El accepted Talos as a brother and a friend. And trying to bar him is against the will of the Aedra.

      Says who?

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    • It's simple. The Thalmor think back to the Merethic Era, when they ruled over Tamriel, and Tamriel was at, relative, peace. Remember, Mankind is known for warfare, the races of Mer were vastly more advanced in terms of technologly, literature, arts, etc. Even the very language of Tamriel; Tamrielic, is based on the Elven languages.

      So it can make sense that at some point, people think that it's been enough, human Empires have resulted in death and bloodshed more often than not, and the Thalmor want to end that. They want to pacify Tamriel, return it to the way it was before.

      It's the very reason why they renamed Summerset to Alinor; because that's what it used to be called in times past. It's also the reason why they reformed the Aldmeri Dominion; because it's out of a time when things were, somewhat, better for the elven people part of it.

      Their hatred for the Empire can easily be explained in the fact that the Empire, especially the last 200 years, has been at war many times. The Thalmor want to weaken it, take over and purify Tamriel.

      What they mean by purify? Up to you, but it doesn't sound good for the races of Man.


      Sothas wrote: The Thalmor goal is NOT to conquer Tamriel. Their goal is to return to the Dawn Era so that they (everyone) can be immortal again.

      Still spreading the Kirkbride fiction, eh?

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    • Sothas wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Gobi-Aoi wrote: It's easy to sympathize with some of them. I mean, high elves live a lot (sometimes, even "A LOOOOT"). I bet some are still alive to remember Tiber Septim massacring their kin for the sake of conquering all of Tamriel. The Empire of Cyrodiil, of which the origins relate somewhat to the Alessian Order (who hated non-humans). Now consider an elf, looking at a human who lives maybe 1/5 of their usual lifetime, limited in terms of magic and prone to violence and genocide. Then consider that the elves were forced into worshiping Septim as a god. Now consider that the elves were already pissed at the fact they are no longer gods (in their view anyway) from the start.

      In short, the Thalmor's ways are easy to understand, because they see humans as some kind of "cancer" in the world, and don't want to worship one of them. Not unlike Ysgramor's quest against elves, the Thalmor want their own "justified genocide". Looking at Skyrim only, they are unjustifiable, but looking at their history, not as much.

      The problem is, Talos was accepted by the other Aedric gods as one of their own. So the Altmer can bitch against Talos all they want, their beloved Auri-El accepted Talos as a brother and a friend. And trying to bar him is against the will of the Aedra.

      Says who?

      Says the Aedra. They needed a blood sample from a Divine in the Oblivion Crisis. Talos' blood scraped off from a piece of his armor worked.

      It's not as if the other Aedric gods are perfect. Akatosh, also known as Auri-El, did little against his rebellious children, delegating the punishment of Alduin to Kyne, Paarthurnax, the Nordic Tongues, and later, the Last Dragonborn.

      "Akatosh says: Serve and obey your Emperor. Study the Covenants. Worship the Nine, do your duty, and heed the commands of the saints and priests." ―Ten Commands: Nine Divines

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Sothas wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Gobi-Aoi wrote: It's easy to sympathize with some of them. I mean, high elves live a lot (sometimes, even "A LOOOOT"). I bet some are still alive to remember Tiber Septim massacring their kin for the sake of conquering all of Tamriel. The Empire of Cyrodiil, of which the origins relate somewhat to the Alessian Order (who hated non-humans). Now consider an elf, looking at a human who lives maybe 1/5 of their usual lifetime, limited in terms of magic and prone to violence and genocide. Then consider that the elves were forced into worshiping Septim as a god. Now consider that the elves were already pissed at the fact they are no longer gods (in their view anyway) from the start.

      In short, the Thalmor's ways are easy to understand, because they see humans as some kind of "cancer" in the world, and don't want to worship one of them. Not unlike Ysgramor's quest against elves, the Thalmor want their own "justified genocide". Looking at Skyrim only, they are unjustifiable, but looking at their history, not as much.

      The problem is, Talos was accepted by the other Aedric gods as one of their own. So the Altmer can bitch against Talos all they want, their beloved Auri-El accepted Talos as a brother and a friend. And trying to bar him is against the will of the Aedra.

      Says who?

      Says the Aedra. They needed a blood sample from a Divine in the Oblivion Crisis. Talos' blood scraped off from a piece of his armor worked.

      It's not as if the other Aedric gods are perfect. Akatosh, also known as Auri-El, did little against his rebellious children, delegating the punishment of Alduin to Kyne, Paarthurnax, the Nordic Tongues, and later, the Last Dragonborn.

      "Akatosh says: Serve and obey your Emperor. Study the Covenants. Worship the Nine, do your duty, and heed the commands of the saints and priests."

      ―Ten Commands: Nine Divines

      Yeah, no, that source isn't exactly credible.  Anyone could've written that, it's not exactly like Akatosh told everyone that.  "Serve and obey your Emperor"?  Doesn't even sound like Akatosh to me, it sounds more like Imperial propaganda.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Yeah, no, that source isn't exactly credible.  Anyone could've written that, it's not exactly like Akatosh told everyone that.  "Serve and obey your Emperor"?  Doesn't even sound like Akatosh to me, it sounds more like Imperial propaganda.

      Then you don't know Akatosh... did you forget that Akatosh aided Alessia in creating the first Empire? Or the Amulet of Kings? Did you forget how Akatosh's blessed armor is literally the same armor the Emperor wears?

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Yeah, no, that source isn't exactly credible.  Anyone could've written that, it's not exactly like Akatosh told everyone that.  "Serve and obey your Emperor"?  Doesn't even sound like Akatosh to me, it sounds more like Imperial propaganda.

      Then you don't know Akatosh... did you forget that Akatosh aided Alessia in creating the first Empire? Or the Amulet of Kings? Did you forget how Akatosh's blessed armor is literally the same armor the Emperor wears?

      No, I didn't, Oblivion was literally the first ES game I played.

      As lord of the Aedra, Akatosh took pity on the plight of Men, who were slaves of the Ayleids, and drawing precious blood from his own heart, blessed Alessia with the blood of dragons. He also made a Covenant that so long as Alessia's generations were true to the dragon blood, Akatosh would endeavor to seal tight the Oblivion Gate for good and deny the armies of Daedra and undead to their enemies, the Ayleids.

      He granted a blessing, made a covenant, and that was it.  Tell me, if Akatosh cared so much, why did he wait until Martin Septim, after a long and grueling campaign to get back the Amulet of Kings from the Mythic Dawn, had taken the Amulet to the Dragonfires and found out there was nothing he could do except pray to Akatosh for help, to do anything to help, when there was so much freaking destruction going on?  Dagon freaking destroyed an entire city months before, and Akatosh didn't lift a single talon until Martin comes ridiculously close to solving the problem himself only to come up short.  He didn't even just tell Paarthurnax, his freaking son, "Hey, so the Emperor of Cyrodiil has been assassinated, and I forsee some serious problems, so if you could just head down to Kvatch and kill any daedra you see coming out of an Oblivion gate to the Deadlands, that'd be awesome.  Also, once a random dude comes along to Kvatch and enters the gate, head up to Weynon Priory and kill any dudes in red robes you see.  Leave none of them alive."  Yeah, doesn't sound like a god that's generally concerned for the well-being of men.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Yeah, no, that source isn't exactly credible.  Anyone could've written that, it's not exactly like Akatosh told everyone that.  "Serve and obey your Emperor"?  Doesn't even sound like Akatosh to me, it sounds more like Imperial propaganda.

      Then you don't know Akatosh... did you forget that Akatosh aided Alessia in creating the first Empire? Or the Amulet of Kings? Did you forget how Akatosh's blessed armor is literally the same armor the Emperor wears?

      No, I didn't, Oblivion was literally the first ES game I played.

      As lord of the Aedra, Akatosh took pity on the plight of Men, who were slaves of the Ayleids, and drawing precious blood from his own heart, blessed Alessia with the blood of dragons. He also made a Covenant that so long as Alessia's generations were true to the dragon blood, Akatosh would endeavor to seal tight the Oblivion Gate for good and deny the armies of Daedra and undead to their enemies, the Ayleids.

      He granted a blessing, made a covenant, and that was it.  Tell me, if Akatosh cared so much, why did he wait until Martin Septim, after a long and grueling campaign to get back the Amulet of Kings from the Mythic Dawn, had taken the Amulet to the Dragonfires and found out there was nothing he could do except pray to Akatosh for help, to do anything to help, when there was so much freaking destruction going on?  Dagon freaking destroyed an entire city months before, and Akatosh didn't lift a single talon until Martin comes ridiculously close to solving the problem himself only to come up short.  He didn't even just tell Paarthurnax, his freaking son, "Hey, so the Emperor of Cyrodiil has been assassinated, and I forsee some serious problems, so if you could just head down to Kvatch and kill any daedra you see coming out of an Oblivion gate to the Deadlands, that'd be awesome.  Also, once a random dude comes along to Kvatch and enters the gate, head up to Weynon Priory and kill any dudes in red robes you see.  Leave none of them alive."  Yeah, doesn't sound like a god that's generally concerned for the well-being of men.

      Still, the Aedric gods showed more concern for men than elves. The elves tend to be a tad bit too prideful to the point where the gods eventually get involved to knock them around. The Dwemer enslaved the Falmer after the latter tried to wipe out the Nords and failed, and look where they are now? Similarly, the Dark Elves enslaved the Argonians, and yet the ensuing events after Morrowind and Oblivion eventually led to the Red Mountain erupting and their great empire in Morrowind suffering one catastrophe after another, such as Argonian slave revolts. The Ayleids themselves worshipped the Daedric princes and enslaved the humans, and the gods eventually got pissed and helped a human slave woman overthrow their mighty empire.

      I'm pretty sure that something nasty will befall the Thalmor soon enough. Whether it's an assault by a rebuilt Maomer fleet or an assault by a new Sload Necromancer army, only time will tell. But the Thalmor's victories won't last for long. They failed to defeat the Empire, and now, either the Empire or the Stormcloaks have the Dragonborn in their possession. The Stormcloaks winning with the Dragonborn against the Thalmor is a long-shot, but the Empire can sure as hell win with the Dragonborn complimenting the Empire's resources and manpower with the power to tame and ride dragons. It's like Miraak, but on the Empire's side. That could really help the Empire rebuild and get the advantage against the Thalmor once again.

      It seems that if the gods aren't busy ripping the elves a new asshole to breathe out of, they were busy signing pacts with men and helping them rule the continent. The same Amulet of Kings that Alessia received was the same one Martin Septim used to become one with Akatosh. It seems that the gods of Elder Scrolls favor men over mer.

      Also, Paarthurnax was waiting at the Throat of the World for Alduin. No one else. That's why the Aedric gods didn't bother him. He had his own vigil to stick to, since Alduin could pop out anytime.

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      *snip*

      Still, the Aedric gods showed more concern for men than elves. The elves tend to be a tad bit too prideful to the point where the gods eventually get involved to knock them around. The Dwemer enslaved the Falmer after the latter tried to wipe out the Nords and failed, and look where they are now? Similarly, the Dark Elves enslaved the Argonians, and yet the ensuing events after Morrowind and Oblivion eventually led to the Red Mountain erupting and their great empire in Morrowind suffering one catastrophe after another, such as Argonian slave revolts. The Ayleids themselves worshipped the Daedric princes and enslaved the humans, and the gods eventually got pissed and helped a human slave woman overthrow their mighty empire.

      I'm pretty sure that something nasty will befall the Thalmor soon enough. Whether it's an assault by a rebuilt Maomer fleet or an assault by a new Sload Necromancer army, only time will tell. But the Thalmor's victories won't last for long. They failed to defeat the Empire, and now, either the Empire or the Stormcloaks have the Dragonborn in their possession. The Stormcloaks winning with the Dragonborn against the Thalmor is a long-shot, but the Empire can sure as hell win with the Dragonborn complimenting the Empire's resources and manpower with the power to tame and ride dragons. It's like Miraak, but on the Empire's side. That could really help the Empire rebuild and get the advantage against the Thalmor once again.

      It seems that if the gods aren't busy ripping the elves a new asshole to breathe out of, they were busy signing pacts with men and helping them rule the continent. The same Amulet of Kings that Alessia received was the same one Martin Septim used to become one with Akatosh. It seems that the gods of Elder Scrolls favor men over mer.

      Also, Paarthurnax was waiting at the Throat of the World for Alduin. No one else. That's why the Aedric gods didn't bother him. He had his own vigil to stick to, since Alduin could pop out anytime.

      I'm sorry, where are you getting all of this from? None of the gods have actually done anything of interest for any race, really, save for Dibella and Akatosh, and neither of them did much to help. All Dibella did was make a magic paintbrush and help out Pelinal Whitestrake, who was a Shezarrine, so she wasn't exactly helping out mortals beyond helping their career or helping out the avatar of an immortal being to take down the Ayleids.

      Look, the point is, the gods seem to have a serious hands-off approach to babysitting mortals, and Talos is not confirmed to be a deity, in terms of lore. Hell, the mortal Talos was a Shezarrine as well, so the "god" Talos could be Lorkhan for all we know.

      Also, Akatosh can see through time, he knows the exact moment when Alduin will reappear in time, because how would Akatosh know when and where to birth the Last Dragonborn so that they can save the world? Are you suggesting that the Last Dragonborn was created out of thin air only a day before Alduin came back?

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      *snip*

      Still, the Aedric gods showed more concern for men than elves. The elves tend to be a tad bit too prideful to the point where the gods eventually get involved to knock them around. The Dwemer enslaved the Falmer after the latter tried to wipe out the Nords and failed, and look where they are now? Similarly, the Dark Elves enslaved the Argonians, and yet the ensuing events after Morrowind and Oblivion eventually led to the Red Mountain erupting and their great empire in Morrowind suffering one catastrophe after another, such as Argonian slave revolts. The Ayleids themselves worshipped the Daedric princes and enslaved the humans, and the gods eventually got pissed and helped a human slave woman overthrow their mighty empire.

      I'm pretty sure that something nasty will befall the Thalmor soon enough. Whether it's an assault by a rebuilt Maomer fleet or an assault by a new Sload Necromancer army, only time will tell. But the Thalmor's victories won't last for long. They failed to defeat the Empire, and now, either the Empire or the Stormcloaks have the Dragonborn in their possession. The Stormcloaks winning with the Dragonborn against the Thalmor is a long-shot, but the Empire can sure as hell win with the Dragonborn complimenting the Empire's resources and manpower with the power to tame and ride dragons. It's like Miraak, but on the Empire's side. That could really help the Empire rebuild and get the advantage against the Thalmor once again.

      It seems that if the gods aren't busy ripping the elves a new asshole to breathe out of, they were busy signing pacts with men and helping them rule the continent. The same Amulet of Kings that Alessia received was the same one Martin Septim used to become one with Akatosh. It seems that the gods of Elder Scrolls favor men over mer.

      Also, Paarthurnax was waiting at the Throat of the World for Alduin. No one else. That's why the Aedric gods didn't bother him. He had his own vigil to stick to, since Alduin could pop out anytime.

      I'm sorry, where are you getting all of this from? None of the gods have actually done anything of interest for any race, really, save for Dibella and Akatosh, and neither of them did much to help. All Dibella did was make a magic paintbrush and help out Pelinal Whitestrake, who was a Shezarrine, so she wasn't exactly helping out mortals beyond helping their career or helping out the avatar of an immortal being to take down the Ayleids.

      Look, the point is, the gods seem to have a serious hands-off approach to babysitting mortals, and Talos is not confirmed to be a deity, in terms of lore. Hell, the mortal Talos was a Shezarrine as well, so the "god" Talos could be Lorkhan for all we know.

      Also, Akatosh can see through time, he knows the exact moment when Alduin will reappear in time, because how would Akatosh know when and where to birth the Last Dragonborn so that they can save the world? Are you suggesting that the Last Dragonborn was created out of thin air only a day before Alduin came back?

      Actually, the gods of Elder Scrolls are very involved in the chessboard that is Nirn. They grant their strength and blessings to those of pure heart that come to them, and they have openly helped men twice in their battles against dragons, elves, and Daedras. Against dragons, Kyne conspired with Paarthurnax, giving them the Thu'um and teaching them how to use it to defeat Alduin and release the humans from the tyranny of the dragons. Against the Elves, Alessia had the support of the gods and the Amulet of Kings was bestowed upon her. Against the Daedra, Martin Septim and Akatosh merged to defeat Mehrunes Dagon in the field of battle within the Imperial City. When Alduin returned and began reviving dragons, the gods' answer was the Last Dragonborn. That is anything but hands-off.

      If Akatosh can see through time, then he and the other gods could have manipulated things from behind the scenes so that the Last Dragonborn would be at the right time and place for Alduin. Born before Alduin made his return public, and just in the right time to put a stop to him, just as the hero of Kvatch was in the appropriate jail cell that the Emperor finds him in.

        Loading editor
    • Ugh, the fucking quote function isn't working.


      The point is not that they don't help.  It's that they don't do anything beyond give some sort of blessing or make some would-be hero appear at the right place at the right time.  That's it.  That's all they do.  They gift the mortals with a blessing or a mortal hero (or Lorkhan in the form of a Shezarrine), and then they sit back and have the mortals (and/or Lorkhan) do the work for them.  If they were really concerned, they'd do more than that.  They'd exercise their power, any power they had at all, to at least give the mortals (and Lorkhan) an easier time.  Akatosh could raise some dragon that would listen to him, Kynareth could summon the animals of the forest, Mara could protect the Hero of Kvatch and/or Martin Septim, Stendarr could do literally anything of use for once in their pathetic infinite life, anything to help these poor motherfuckers trying to relight the Dragonfires while being attacked by Mehrunes Dagon and his cult of crazies.  And what do they do after they plop the Hero of Kvatch in jail to meet Uriel Septim the Seventh?  Absolutely nothing up until literally all hope is lost for the mortals to solve the problem on their own.  Same thing in Skyrim, they plop the Dragonborn off at the border, let them get captured and sentenced to death because "fuck the list", and watch as the Dragonborn escapes from the chopping block and does all the work themselves.  Neither of them even get so much as a "thank you for saving Tamriel and all the cute little mortals that live there" from the Aedra.


      About the only time I can think of in which an Aedra directly helps in some way beyond a blessing is the Live Another Life mod for Skyrim, in which Mara (no surprises there, she is the Goddess of Love) straight up asks you "How you wanna do this?", and then makes it happen.  She's given the Dragonborn resources, and even time to prepare before Alduin arrives.  How thoughtful.  Akatosh would just dump them in a jail cell or schedule them for an execution that would be interrupted by the motherfucking World Eater that they're eventually supposed to kill.


      TL;DR, the only two Aedra I trust to be of any help at all are Mara and Lorkhan.



      EDIT: Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help without dooming me to an afterlife of slavery to them or betraying my morals?  Three.  Azura (why wouldn't you trust Azura?), Meridia (she just wants the undead to die again, nothing wrong with that), and Sanguine (if nothing else, he can help me with the excessive stress of being the guy that has to save the world).  Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help if I agree to be their afterlife slave?  Four.  Hircine, Nocturnal, Molag Bal, and Hermaeus Mora.  Know how many Daedra I can trust to to be of any help if I abandon my morals?  Four.  Namira, Vaermina, Mephala, and Boethiah.  In total, that's 11 Daedra that I can trust to be of any help at all.  And I can only trust 2 Aedra to do the same.

        Loading editor
    • Pupdude wrote:

      Ugh, the fucking quote function isn't working.


      The point is not that they don't help.  It's that they don't do anything beyond give some sort of blessing or make some would-be hero appear at the right place at the right time.  That's it.  That's all they do.  They gift the mortals with a blessing or a mortal hero (or Lorkhan in the form of a Shezarrine), and then they sit back and have the mortals (and/or Lorkhan) do the work for them.  If they were really concerned, they'd do more than that.  They'd exercise their power, any power they had at all, to at least give the mortals (and Lorkhan) an easier time.  Akatosh could raise some dragon that would listen to him, Kynareth could summon the animals of the forest, Mara could protect the Hero of Kvatch and/or Martin Septim, Stendarr could do literally anything of use for once in their pathetic infinite life, anything to help these poor motherfuckers trying to relight the Dragonfires while being attacked by Mehrunes Dagon and his cult of crazies.  And what do they do after they plop the Hero of Kvatch in jail to meet Uriel Septim the Seventh?  Absolutely nothing up until literally all hope is lost for the mortals to solve the problem on their own.  Same thing in Skyrim, they plop the Dragonborn off at the border, let them get captured and sentenced to death because "fuck the list", and watch as the Dragonborn escapes from the chopping block and does all the work themselves.  Neither of them even get so much as a "thank you for saving Tamriel and all the cute little mortals that live there" from the Aedra.


      About the only time I can think of in which an Aedra directly helps in some way beyond a blessing is the Live Another Life mod for Skyrim, in which Mara (no surprises there, she is the Goddess of Love) straight up asks you "How you wanna do this?", and then makes it happen.  She's given the Dragonborn resources, and even time to prepare before Alduin arrives.  How thoughtful.  Akatosh would just dump them in a jail cell or schedule them for an execution that would be interrupted by the motherfucking World Eater that they're eventually supposed to kill.


      TL;DR, the only two Aedra I trust to be of any help at all are Mara and Lorkhan.



      EDIT: Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help without dooming me to an afterlife of slavery to them or betraying my morals?  Three.  Azura (why wouldn't you trust Azura?), Meridia (she just wants the undead to die again, nothing wrong with that), and Sanguine (if nothing else, he can help me with the excessive stress of being the guy that has to save the world).  Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help if I agree to be their afterlife slave?  Four.  Hircine, Nocturnal, Molag Bal, and Hermaeus Mora.  Know how many Daedra I can trust to to be of any help if I abandon my morals?  Four.  Namira, Vaermina, Mephala, and Boethiah.  In total, that's 11 Daedra that I can trust to be of any help at all.  And I can only trust 2 Aedra to do the same.

      You do realize that the Aedra perform everyday services for the people from their shrines, right? And that their priests have healing powers that serve the populace? Without the Aedra, the humans would still be slaves of the dragons. Without the Aedra, the heartland humans would still be the Ayleids' bitches. Without the Aedra, there would be no stopping Mehrunes Dagon from invading Nirn, and there would be no Last Dragonborn to help against Alduin. The Aedra aren't passive; they're outright participants in the world.

      As for the Dragonborn, Akatosh, having foreseen things as the god of TIME, probably didn't lift a finger because he knew his son would appear. So why waste time and energy (that mortals always siphon from their shrines) when the Dragonborn can take care of their own?

      Also, most Daedric Princes work with mortals to benefit their own ends. A few are above the exception, such as Azura and Meridia who usually help mortals, or Sanguine and Sheogorath who are just either decadent or crazy. But the greater lot of them only want to use mortals before dumping them like moist towelettes. Mora wants to entrap people in Apocrypha so he can use them as tools, Molag just wants to dominate people and spread things like vampirism to spite the likes of Arkay, and Mehrunes Dagon outright deceives his followers and lets them fall into a "paradise" where they're tortured again and again. Compare that to the realms of Aetherius like Sovngarde, where people just feast, fight, and relax all day, and it's no contest. Most of the Aedra serve the mortals, while most of the Daedra only seek to manipulate them, with the odd exception of the likes of Meridia or Azura.

      Also, all the dragons that did the will of Akatosh and worked against Alduin are all dead at the hands of the Blades or other mortals. The humans and other mortals don't like dragons and just want to kill them; even the dragons that rebelled against Alduin were massacred. Mortals don't like dragons, period. That's why the Greybeards kept Paarthurnax their secret: they know that if his cover is blown, mortals like the Blades would want their skulls.

      If the gods did everything for the mortals, they'd be lazy as fuck. Also, it's established that the Aedric gods are limited in power, so it's quite obvious that they're doing the best they can, aside from providing everyday blessings and powers for the mortals. They're not like capital G God from the Bible where His Son can just drive out legions of demons with mere words and the evil that He's forced to tolerate are evils of men with free will. Remember: the Aedra weakened themselves to create Nirn. The Daedra didn't. So, from keeping the Daedra out most of the time, and providing the everyday blessings and the odd chosen one, the Aedric gods have their hands full. Asking more out of them is like asking your butler to do the work of twenty men and getting mad when it takes him an hour to clean the whole mansion.

      Also, aside from Azura, Meridia, and Sanguine, most of those Daedric Princes can and will screw you in the ass figuratively, or in Molag Bal's case, literally, if they so choose. If the whim hits them, they can and will leave you in an afterlife of pain. So you better be ready to serve them and not fail, because the moment you do, well, you'll wish you were in Alduin's belly instead of suffering eternally.

        Loading editor
    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Ugh, the fucking quote function isn't working.


      The point is not that they don't help.  It's that they don't do anything beyond give some sort of blessing or make some would-be hero appear at the right place at the right time.  That's it.  That's all they do.  They gift the mortals with a blessing or a mortal hero (or Lorkhan in the form of a Shezarrine), and then they sit back and have the mortals (and/or Lorkhan) do the work for them.  If they were really concerned, they'd do more than that.  They'd exercise their power, any power they had at all, to at least give the mortals (and Lorkhan) an easier time.  Akatosh could raise some dragon that would listen to him, Kynareth could summon the animals of the forest, Mara could protect the Hero of Kvatch and/or Martin Septim, Stendarr could do literally anything of use for once in their pathetic infinite life, anything to help these poor motherfuckers trying to relight the Dragonfires while being attacked by Mehrunes Dagon and his cult of crazies.  And what do they do after they plop the Hero of Kvatch in jail to meet Uriel Septim the Seventh?  Absolutely nothing up until literally all hope is lost for the mortals to solve the problem on their own.  Same thing in Skyrim, they plop the Dragonborn off at the border, let them get captured and sentenced to death because "fuck the list", and watch as the Dragonborn escapes from the chopping block and does all the work themselves.  Neither of them even get so much as a "thank you for saving Tamriel and all the cute little mortals that live there" from the Aedra.



      About the only time I can think of in which an Aedra directly helps in some way beyond a blessing is the Live Another Life mod for Skyrim, in which Mara (no surprises there, she is the Goddess of Love) straight up asks you "How you wanna do this?", and then makes it happen.  She's given the Dragonborn resources, and even time to prepare before Alduin arrives.  How thoughtful.  Akatosh would just dump them in a jail cell or schedule them for an execution that would be interrupted by the motherfucking World Eater that they're eventually supposed to kill.



      TL;DR, the only two Aedra I trust to be of any help at all are Mara and Lorkhan.



      EDIT: Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help without dooming me to an afterlife of slavery to them or betraying my morals?  Three.  Azura (why wouldn't you trust Azura?), Meridia (she just wants the undead to die again, nothing wrong with that), and Sanguine (if nothing else, he can help me with the excessive stress of being the guy that has to save the world).  Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help if I agree to be their afterlife slave?  Four.  Hircine, Nocturnal, Molag Bal, and Hermaeus Mora.  Know how many Daedra I can trust to to be of any help if I abandon my morals?  Four.  Namira, Vaermina, Mephala, and Boethiah.  In total, that's 11 Daedra that I can trust to be of any help at all.  And I can only trust 2 Aedra to do the same.


      You do realize that the Aedra perform everyday services for the people from their shrines, right? And that their priests have healing powers that serve the populace? Without the Aedra, the humans would still be slaves of the dragons. Without the Aedra, the heartland humans would still be the Ayleids' bitches. Without the Aedra, there would be no stopping Mehrunes Dagon from invading Nirn, and there would be no Last Dragonborn to help against Alduin. The Aedra aren't passive; they're outright participants in the world.

      As for the Dragonborn, Akatosh, having foreseen things as the god of TIME, probably didn't lift a finger because he knew his son would appear. So why waste time and energy (that mortals always siphon from their shrines) when the Dragonborn can take care of their own?

      Also, most Daedric Princes work with mortals to benefit their own ends. A few are above the exception, such as Azura and Meridia who usually help mortals, or Sanguine and Sheogorath who are just either decadent or crazy. But the greater lot of them only want to use mortals before dumping them like moist towelettes. Mora wants to entrap people in Apocrypha so he can use them as tools, Molag just wants to dominate people and spread things like vampirism to spite the likes of Arkay, and Mehrunes Dagon outright deceives his followers and lets them fall into a "paradise" where they're tortured again and again. Compare that to the realms of Aetherius like Sovngarde, where people just feast, fight, and relax all day, and it's no contest. Most of the Aedra serve the mortals, while most of the Daedra only seek to manipulate them, with the odd exception of the likes of Meridia or Azura.

      Also, all the dragons that did the will of Akatosh and worked against Alduin are all dead at the hands of the Blades or other mortals. The humans and other mortals don't like dragons and just want to kill them; even the dragons that rebelled against Alduin were massacred. Mortals don't like dragons, period. That's why the Greybeards kept Paarthurnax their secret: they know that if his cover is blown, mortals like the Blades would want their skulls.

      If the gods did everything for the mortals, they'd be lazy as fuck. Also, it's established that the Aedric gods are limited in power, so it's quite obvious that they're doing the best they can, aside from providing everyday blessings and powers for the mortals. They're not like capital G God from the Bible where His Son can just drive out legions of demons with mere words and the evil that He's forced to tolerate are evils of men with free will. Remember: the Aedra weakened themselves to create Nirn. The Daedra didn't. So, from keeping the Daedra out most of the time, and providing the everyday blessings and the odd chosen one, the Aedric gods have their hands full. Asking more out of them is like asking your butler to do the work of twenty men and getting mad when it takes him an hour to clean the whole mansion.

      Also, aside from Azura, Meridia, and Sanguine, most of those Daedric Princes can and will screw you in the ass figuratively, or in Molag Bal's case, literally, if they so choose. If the whim hits them, they can and will leave you in an afterlife of pain. So you better be ready to serve them and not fail, because the moment you do, well, you'll wish you were in Alduin's belly instead of suffering eternally.

      Okay, here's how you view the Aedra:

      "I can't help you move your furniture into your new apartment.  I can lend you my moving van, but I can't help you move the actual furniture, because I have a really bad back."

      And here's what I'm seeing:

      "What do you mean 'hold the door open for me, please'?  I lent you my moving van, isn't that enough for your greedy ass?"

      I can understand them not just doing everything themselves, they're weakened as all hell (even though it would make sense that that power would've grown back by now, at least a decent amount), but they're not even giving the heroes any sort of courtesy assistance whatsoever.  No "Hey, here's how you close an Oblivion gate" or "Hey, the Greybeards are led by my dragon son, Paarthurnax; he would know about something that would lead you to the shout you need to kill my other dragon son" or even just "Hey, you missed a shitload of loot back there".  They just let the heroes blunder their way through their adventure.

      I recently bought Jet Set Radio HD on Steam.  I was playing the first mission in Benton-cho, and I was trying to figure out how to get to the last graffiti spot for an hour or so.  And then I found a freaking opening on the ground level.  You know how pissed I was that it was so hard to find such a simple doorway?  Now imagine that there's a person watching you play the game who knows about that doorway, and they don't tell you when you're clearly frustrated.  That's a pretty good representation of the situation with the Aedra.

        Loading editor
    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Ugh, the fucking quote function isn't working.


      The point is not that they don't help.  It's that they don't do anything beyond give some sort of blessing or make some would-be hero appear at the right place at the right time.  That's it.  That's all they do.  They gift the mortals with a blessing or a mortal hero (or Lorkhan in the form of a Shezarrine), and then they sit back and have the mortals (and/or Lorkhan) do the work for them.  If they were really concerned, they'd do more than that.  They'd exercise their power, any power they had at all, to at least give the mortals (and Lorkhan) an easier time.  Akatosh could raise some dragon that would listen to him, Kynareth could summon the animals of the forest, Mara could protect the Hero of Kvatch and/or Martin Septim, Stendarr could do literally anything of use for once in their pathetic infinite life, anything to help these poor motherfuckers trying to relight the Dragonfires while being attacked by Mehrunes Dagon and his cult of crazies.  And what do they do after they plop the Hero of Kvatch in jail to meet Uriel Septim the Seventh?  Absolutely nothing up until literally all hope is lost for the mortals to solve the problem on their own.  Same thing in Skyrim, they plop the Dragonborn off at the border, let them get captured and sentenced to death because "fuck the list", and watch as the Dragonborn escapes from the chopping block and does all the work themselves.  Neither of them even get so much as a "thank you for saving Tamriel and all the cute little mortals that live there" from the Aedra.



      About the only time I can think of in which an Aedra directly helps in some way beyond a blessing is the Live Another Life mod for Skyrim, in which Mara (no surprises there, she is the Goddess of Love) straight up asks you "How you wanna do this?", and then makes it happen.  She's given the Dragonborn resources, and even time to prepare before Alduin arrives.  How thoughtful.  Akatosh would just dump them in a jail cell or schedule them for an execution that would be interrupted by the motherfucking World Eater that they're eventually supposed to kill.



      TL;DR, the only two Aedra I trust to be of any help at all are Mara and Lorkhan.



      EDIT: Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help without dooming me to an afterlife of slavery to them or betraying my morals?  Three.  Azura (why wouldn't you trust Azura?), Meridia (she just wants the undead to die again, nothing wrong with that), and Sanguine (if nothing else, he can help me with the excessive stress of being the guy that has to save the world).  Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help if I agree to be their afterlife slave?  Four.  Hircine, Nocturnal, Molag Bal, and Hermaeus Mora.  Know how many Daedra I can trust to to be of any help if I abandon my morals?  Four.  Namira, Vaermina, Mephala, and Boethiah.  In total, that's 11 Daedra that I can trust to be of any help at all.  And I can only trust 2 Aedra to do the same.


      You do realize that the Aedra perform everyday services for the people from their shrines, right? And that their priests have healing powers that serve the populace? Without the Aedra, the humans would still be slaves of the dragons. Without the Aedra, the heartland humans would still be the Ayleids' bitches. Without the Aedra, there would be no stopping Mehrunes Dagon from invading Nirn, and there would be no Last Dragonborn to help against Alduin. The Aedra aren't passive; they're outright participants in the world.

      As for the Dragonborn, Akatosh, having foreseen things as the god of TIME, probably didn't lift a finger because he knew his son would appear. So why waste time and energy (that mortals always siphon from their shrines) when the Dragonborn can take care of their own?

      Also, most Daedric Princes work with mortals to benefit their own ends. A few are above the exception, such as Azura and Meridia who usually help mortals, or Sanguine and Sheogorath who are just either decadent or crazy. But the greater lot of them only want to use mortals before dumping them like moist towelettes. Mora wants to entrap people in Apocrypha so he can use them as tools, Molag just wants to dominate people and spread things like vampirism to spite the likes of Arkay, and Mehrunes Dagon outright deceives his followers and lets them fall into a "paradise" where they're tortured again and again. Compare that to the realms of Aetherius like Sovngarde, where people just feast, fight, and relax all day, and it's no contest. Most of the Aedra serve the mortals, while most of the Daedra only seek to manipulate them, with the odd exception of the likes of Meridia or Azura.

      Also, all the dragons that did the will of Akatosh and worked against Alduin are all dead at the hands of the Blades or other mortals. The humans and other mortals don't like dragons and just want to kill them; even the dragons that rebelled against Alduin were massacred. Mortals don't like dragons, period. That's why the Greybeards kept Paarthurnax their secret: they know that if his cover is blown, mortals like the Blades would want their skulls.

      If the gods did everything for the mortals, they'd be lazy as fuck. Also, it's established that the Aedric gods are limited in power, so it's quite obvious that they're doing the best they can, aside from providing everyday blessings and powers for the mortals. They're not like capital G God from the Bible where His Son can just drive out legions of demons with mere words and the evil that He's forced to tolerate are evils of men with free will. Remember: the Aedra weakened themselves to create Nirn. The Daedra didn't. So, from keeping the Daedra out most of the time, and providing the everyday blessings and the odd chosen one, the Aedric gods have their hands full. Asking more out of them is like asking your butler to do the work of twenty men and getting mad when it takes him an hour to clean the whole mansion.

      Also, aside from Azura, Meridia, and Sanguine, most of those Daedric Princes can and will screw you in the ass figuratively, or in Molag Bal's case, literally, if they so choose. If the whim hits them, they can and will leave you in an afterlife of pain. So you better be ready to serve them and not fail, because the moment you do, well, you'll wish you were in Alduin's belly instead of suffering eternally.

      Okay, here's how you view the Aedra:

      "I can't help you move your furniture into your new apartment.  I can lend you my moving van, but I can't help you move the actual furniture, because I have a really bad back."

      And here's what I'm seeing:

      "What do you mean 'hold the door open for me, please'?  I lent you my moving van, isn't that enough for your greedy ass?"

      I can understand them not just doing everything themselves, they're weakened as all hell (even though it would make sense that that power would've grown back by now, at least a decent amount), but they're not even giving the heroes any sort of courtesy assistance whatsoever.  No "Hey, here's how you close an Oblivion gate" or "Hey, the Greybeards are led by my dragon son, Paarthurnax; he would know about something that would lead you to the shout you need to kill my other dragon son" or even just "Hey, you missed a shitload of loot back there".  They just let the heroes blunder their way through their adventure.

      I recently bought Jet Set Radio HD on Steam.  I was playing the first mission in Benton-cho, and I was trying to figure out how to get to the last graffiti spot for an hour or so.  And then I found a freaking opening on the ground level.  You know how pissed I was that it was so hard to find such a simple doorway?  Now imagine that there's a person watching you play the game who knows about that doorway, and they don't tell you when you're clearly frustrated.  That's a pretty good representation of the situation with the Aedra.

      You're over-dramatizing things.

      You do realize that if the Aedra openly blabbed about such secrets, A) the games lose all sense of challenge and suspense, and B) that could be knowledge that evil or misguided heroes can use. After all, this is Elder Scrolls. The heroes can easily be the bad guys, and cavort with all sorts of Daedric princes. So of course, the Aedra will give them enough to help, but not enough to give them everything. You're expecting GODS to be the equivalent of butlers.

      No, that's not the same situation with the Aedra. Because the difference would be, that "person" watching you play would be A) disabled and B) giving blood transfusions to an entire village. That's exactly what's happening every day: the energies of the Aedra are being siphoned off almost everyday by worshippers.

        Loading editor
    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Ugh, the fucking quote function isn't working.

      The point is not that they don't help.  It's that they don't do anything beyond give some sort of blessing or make some would-be hero appear at the right place at the right time.  That's it.  That's all they do.  They gift the mortals with a blessing or a mortal hero (or Lorkhan in the form of a Shezarrine), and then they sit back and have the mortals (and/or Lorkhan) do the work for them.  If they were really concerned, they'd do more than that.  They'd exercise their power, any power they had at all, to at least give the mortals (and Lorkhan) an easier time.  Akatosh could raise some dragon that would listen to him, Kynareth could summon the animals of the forest, Mara could protect the Hero of Kvatch and/or Martin Septim, Stendarr could do literally anything of use for once in their pathetic infinite life, anything to help these poor motherfuckers trying to relight the Dragonfires while being attacked by Mehrunes Dagon and his cult of crazies.  And what do they do after they plop the Hero of Kvatch in jail to meet Uriel Septim the Seventh?  Absolutely nothing up until literally all hope is lost for the mortals to solve the problem on their own.  Same thing in Skyrim, they plop the Dragonborn off at the border, let them get captured and sentenced to death because "fuck the list", and watch as the Dragonborn escapes from the chopping block and does all the work themselves.  Neither of them even get so much as a "thank you for saving Tamriel and all the cute little mortals that live there" from the Aedra.

      About the only time I can think of in which an Aedra directly helps in some way beyond a blessing is the Live Another Life mod for Skyrim, in which Mara (no surprises there, she is the Goddess of Love) straight up asks you "How you wanna do this?", and then makes it happen.  She's given the Dragonborn resources, and even time to prepare before Alduin arrives.  How thoughtful.  Akatosh would just dump them in a jail cell or schedule them for an execution that would be interrupted by the motherfucking World Eater that they're eventually supposed to kill.

      TL;DR, the only two Aedra I trust to be of any help at all are Mara and Lorkhan.

      EDIT: Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help without dooming me to an afterlife of slavery to them or betraying my morals?  Three.  Azura (why wouldn't you trust Azura?), Meridia (she just wants the undead to die again, nothing wrong with that), and Sanguine (if nothing else, he can help me with the excessive stress of being the guy that has to save the world).  Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help if I agree to be their afterlife slave?  Four.  Hircine, Nocturnal, Molag Bal, and Hermaeus Mora.  Know how many Daedra I can trust to to be of any help if I abandon my morals?  Four.  Namira, Vaermina, Mephala, and Boethiah.  In total, that's 11 Daedra that I can trust to be of any help at all.  And I can only trust 2 Aedra to do the same.

      You do realize that the Aedra perform everyday services for the people from their shrines, right? And that their priests have healing powers that serve the populace? Without the Aedra, the humans would still be slaves of the dragons. Without the Aedra, the heartland humans would still be the Ayleids' bitches. Without the Aedra, there would be no stopping Mehrunes Dagon from invading Nirn, and there would be no Last Dragonborn to help against Alduin. The Aedra aren't passive; they're outright participants in the world.

      As for the Dragonborn, Akatosh, having foreseen things as the god of TIME, probably didn't lift a finger because he knew his son would appear. So why waste time and energy (that mortals always siphon from their shrines) when the Dragonborn can take care of their own?

      Also, most Daedric Princes work with mortals to benefit their own ends. A few are above the exception, such as Azura and Meridia who usually help mortals, or Sanguine and Sheogorath who are just either decadent or crazy. But the greater lot of them only want to use mortals before dumping them like moist towelettes. Mora wants to entrap people in Apocrypha so he can use them as tools, Molag just wants to dominate people and spread things like vampirism to spite the likes of Arkay, and Mehrunes Dagon outright deceives his followers and lets them fall into a "paradise" where they're tortured again and again. Compare that to the realms of Aetherius like Sovngarde, where people just feast, fight, and relax all day, and it's no contest. Most of the Aedra serve the mortals, while most of the Daedra only seek to manipulate them, with the odd exception of the likes of Meridia or Azura.

      Also, all the dragons that did the will of Akatosh and worked against Alduin are all dead at the hands of the Blades or other mortals. The humans and other mortals don't like dragons and just want to kill them; even the dragons that rebelled against Alduin were massacred. Mortals don't like dragons, period. That's why the Greybeards kept Paarthurnax their secret: they know that if his cover is blown, mortals like the Blades would want their skulls.

      If the gods did everything for the mortals, they'd be lazy as fuck. Also, it's established that the Aedric gods are limited in power, so it's quite obvious that they're doing the best they can, aside from providing everyday blessings and powers for the mortals. They're not like capital G God from the Bible where His Son can just drive out legions of demons with mere words and the evil that He's forced to tolerate are evils of men with free will. Remember: the Aedra weakened themselves to create Nirn. The Daedra didn't. So, from keeping the Daedra out most of the time, and providing the everyday blessings and the odd chosen one, the Aedric gods have their hands full. Asking more out of them is like asking your butler to do the work of twenty men and getting mad when it takes him an hour to clean the whole mansion.

      Also, aside from Azura, Meridia, and Sanguine, most of those Daedric Princes can and will screw you in the ass figuratively, or in Molag Bal's case, literally, if they so choose. If the whim hits them, they can and will leave you in an afterlife of pain. So you better be ready to serve them and not fail, because the moment you do, well, you'll wish you were in Alduin's belly instead of suffering eternally.

      Okay, here's how you view the Aedra:

      "I can't help you move your furniture into your new apartment.  I can lend you my moving van, but I can't help you move the actual furniture, because I have a really bad back."

      And here's what I'm seeing:

      "What do you mean 'hold the door open for me, please'?  I lent you my moving van, isn't that enough for your greedy ass?"

      I can understand them not just doing everything themselves, they're weakened as all hell (even though it would make sense that that power would've grown back by now, at least a decent amount), but they're not even giving the heroes any sort of courtesy assistance whatsoever.  No "Hey, here's how you close an Oblivion gate" or "Hey, the Greybeards are led by my dragon son, Paarthurnax; he would know about something that would lead you to the shout you need to kill my other dragon son" or even just "Hey, you missed a shitload of loot back there".  They just let the heroes blunder their way through their adventure.

      I recently bought Jet Set Radio HD on Steam.  I was playing the first mission in Benton-cho, and I was trying to figure out how to get to the last graffiti spot for an hour or so.  And then I found a freaking opening on the ground level.  You know how pissed I was that it was so hard to find such a simple doorway?  Now imagine that there's a person watching you play the game who knows about that doorway, and they don't tell you when you're clearly frustrated.  That's a pretty good representation of the situation with the Aedra.

      You're over-dramatizing things.

      You do realize that if the Aedra openly blabbed about such secrets, A) the games lose all sense of challenge and suspense, and B) that could be knowledge that evil or misguided heroes can use. After all, this is Elder Scrolls. The heroes can easily be the bad guys, and cavort with all sorts of Daedric princes. So of course, the Aedra will give them enough to help, but not enough to give them everything. You're expecting GODS to be the equivalent of butlers.

      No, that's not the same situation with the Aedra. Because the difference would be, that "person" watching you play would be A) disabled and B) giving blood transfusions to an entire village. That's exactly what's happening every day: the energies of the Aedra are being siphoned off almost everyday by worshippers.

      Oh, boy, comparing gods to the disabled.

      Look, I'm not expecting them to hand things on a silver platter.  All I'm saying is they could be literally doing just a little bit more, like telling the HoK how to close Oblivion gates, so they wouldn't fuck about for four hours trying to figure out how to close it before finding out that you can touch that weird little black ball at the top of the spire and that will do the trick (Yes, I'm aware they're called sigil stones).  I mean, shit, Akatosh, do you WANT Martin to die?  I mean, yeah, the level design is good enough that you can learn how to close the gate pretty naturally, but how would telling the player that lose any sense of challenge?

      They're just not doing enough, to be honest.

      Also, didn't say this earlier, but Molag Bal isn't the only Daedric Prince that can screw you in the ass literally.  Pretty sure Sanguine's up for literally any kind of sex, period.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Ugh, the fucking quote function isn't working.

      The point is not that they don't help.  It's that they don't do anything beyond give some sort of blessing or make some would-be hero appear at the right place at the right time.  That's it.  That's all they do.  They gift the mortals with a blessing or a mortal hero (or Lorkhan in the form of a Shezarrine), and then they sit back and have the mortals (and/or Lorkhan) do the work for them.  If they were really concerned, they'd do more than that.  They'd exercise their power, any power they had at all, to at least give the mortals (and Lorkhan) an easier time.  Akatosh could raise some dragon that would listen to him, Kynareth could summon the animals of the forest, Mara could protect the Hero of Kvatch and/or Martin Septim, Stendarr could do literally anything of use for once in their pathetic infinite life, anything to help these poor motherfuckers trying to relight the Dragonfires while being attacked by Mehrunes Dagon and his cult of crazies.  And what do they do after they plop the Hero of Kvatch in jail to meet Uriel Septim the Seventh?  Absolutely nothing up until literally all hope is lost for the mortals to solve the problem on their own.  Same thing in Skyrim, they plop the Dragonborn off at the border, let them get captured and sentenced to death because "fuck the list", and watch as the Dragonborn escapes from the chopping block and does all the work themselves.  Neither of them even get so much as a "thank you for saving Tamriel and all the cute little mortals that live there" from the Aedra.

      About the only time I can think of in which an Aedra directly helps in some way beyond a blessing is the Live Another Life mod for Skyrim, in which Mara (no surprises there, she is the Goddess of Love) straight up asks you "How you wanna do this?", and then makes it happen.  She's given the Dragonborn resources, and even time to prepare before Alduin arrives.  How thoughtful.  Akatosh would just dump them in a jail cell or schedule them for an execution that would be interrupted by the motherfucking World Eater that they're eventually supposed to kill.

      TL;DR, the only two Aedra I trust to be of any help at all are Mara and Lorkhan.

      EDIT: Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help without dooming me to an afterlife of slavery to them or betraying my morals?  Three.  Azura (why wouldn't you trust Azura?), Meridia (she just wants the undead to die again, nothing wrong with that), and Sanguine (if nothing else, he can help me with the excessive stress of being the guy that has to save the world).  Know how many Daedra I can trust to be of any help if I agree to be their afterlife slave?  Four.  Hircine, Nocturnal, Molag Bal, and Hermaeus Mora.  Know how many Daedra I can trust to to be of any help if I abandon my morals?  Four.  Namira, Vaermina, Mephala, and Boethiah.  In total, that's 11 Daedra that I can trust to be of any help at all.  And I can only trust 2 Aedra to do the same.

      You do realize that the Aedra perform everyday services for the people from their shrines, right? And that their priests have healing powers that serve the populace? Without the Aedra, the humans would still be slaves of the dragons. Without the Aedra, the heartland humans would still be the Ayleids' bitches. Without the Aedra, there would be no stopping Mehrunes Dagon from invading Nirn, and there would be no Last Dragonborn to help against Alduin. The Aedra aren't passive; they're outright participants in the world.

      As for the Dragonborn, Akatosh, having foreseen things as the god of TIME, probably didn't lift a finger because he knew his son would appear. So why waste time and energy (that mortals always siphon from their shrines) when the Dragonborn can take care of their own?

      Also, most Daedric Princes work with mortals to benefit their own ends. A few are above the exception, such as Azura and Meridia who usually help mortals, or Sanguine and Sheogorath who are just either decadent or crazy. But the greater lot of them only want to use mortals before dumping them like moist towelettes. Mora wants to entrap people in Apocrypha so he can use them as tools, Molag just wants to dominate people and spread things like vampirism to spite the likes of Arkay, and Mehrunes Dagon outright deceives his followers and lets them fall into a "paradise" where they're tortured again and again. Compare that to the realms of Aetherius like Sovngarde, where people just feast, fight, and relax all day, and it's no contest. Most of the Aedra serve the mortals, while most of the Daedra only seek to manipulate them, with the odd exception of the likes of Meridia or Azura.

      Also, all the dragons that did the will of Akatosh and worked against Alduin are all dead at the hands of the Blades or other mortals. The humans and other mortals don't like dragons and just want to kill them; even the dragons that rebelled against Alduin were massacred. Mortals don't like dragons, period. That's why the Greybeards kept Paarthurnax their secret: they know that if his cover is blown, mortals like the Blades would want their skulls.

      If the gods did everything for the mortals, they'd be lazy as fuck. Also, it's established that the Aedric gods are limited in power, so it's quite obvious that they're doing the best they can, aside from providing everyday blessings and powers for the mortals. They're not like capital G God from the Bible where His Son can just drive out legions of demons with mere words and the evil that He's forced to tolerate are evils of men with free will. Remember: the Aedra weakened themselves to create Nirn. The Daedra didn't. So, from keeping the Daedra out most of the time, and providing the everyday blessings and the odd chosen one, the Aedric gods have their hands full. Asking more out of them is like asking your butler to do the work of twenty men and getting mad when it takes him an hour to clean the whole mansion.

      Also, aside from Azura, Meridia, and Sanguine, most of those Daedric Princes can and will screw you in the ass figuratively, or in Molag Bal's case, literally, if they so choose. If the whim hits them, they can and will leave you in an afterlife of pain. So you better be ready to serve them and not fail, because the moment you do, well, you'll wish you were in Alduin's belly instead of suffering eternally.

      Okay, here's how you view the Aedra:

      "I can't help you move your furniture into your new apartment.  I can lend you my moving van, but I can't help you move the actual furniture, because I have a really bad back."

      And here's what I'm seeing:

      "What do you mean 'hold the door open for me, please'?  I lent you my moving van, isn't that enough for your greedy ass?"

      I can understand them not just doing everything themselves, they're weakened as all hell (even though it would make sense that that power would've grown back by now, at least a decent amount), but they're not even giving the heroes any sort of courtesy assistance whatsoever.  No "Hey, here's how you close an Oblivion gate" or "Hey, the Greybeards are led by my dragon son, Paarthurnax; he would know about something that would lead you to the shout you need to kill my other dragon son" or even just "Hey, you missed a shitload of loot back there".  They just let the heroes blunder their way through their adventure.

      I recently bought Jet Set Radio HD on Steam.  I was playing the first mission in Benton-cho, and I was trying to figure out how to get to the last graffiti spot for an hour or so.  And then I found a freaking opening on the ground level.  You know how pissed I was that it was so hard to find such a simple doorway?  Now imagine that there's a person watching you play the game who knows about that doorway, and they don't tell you when you're clearly frustrated.  That's a pretty good representation of the situation with the Aedra.

      You're over-dramatizing things.

      You do realize that if the Aedra openly blabbed about such secrets, A) the games lose all sense of challenge and suspense, and B) that could be knowledge that evil or misguided heroes can use. After all, this is Elder Scrolls. The heroes can easily be the bad guys, and cavort with all sorts of Daedric princes. So of course, the Aedra will give them enough to help, but not enough to give them everything. You're expecting GODS to be the equivalent of butlers.

      No, that's not the same situation with the Aedra. Because the difference would be, that "person" watching you play would be A) disabled and B) giving blood transfusions to an entire village. That's exactly what's happening every day: the energies of the Aedra are being siphoned off almost everyday by worshippers.

      Oh, boy, comparing gods to the disabled.

      Look, I'm not expecting them to hand things on a silver platter.  All I'm saying is they could be literally doing just a little bit more, like telling the HoK how to close Oblivion gates, so they wouldn't fuck about for four hours trying to figure out how to close it before finding out that you can touch that weird little black ball at the top of the spire and that will do the trick (Yes, I'm aware they're called sigil stones).  I mean, shit, Akatosh, do you WANT Martin to die?  I mean, yeah, the level design is good enough that you can learn how to close the gate pretty naturally, but how would telling the player that lose any sense of challenge?

      They're just not doing enough, to be honest.

      Also, didn't say this earlier, but Molag Bal isn't the only Daedric Prince that can screw you in the ass literally.  Pretty sure Sanguine's up for literally any kind of sex, period.

      That's because they are disabled. Unlike capital G God who wasn't at all weakened when He made all of creation, the Aedra weakened themselves when they created Nirn. Technically, the Daedric Princes would be stronger than the Aedric divinities because A) they didn't weaken themselves in creating the world and B) they are immortal whilst the Aedric deities are not. They're literally mortal gods. And yet they allow the mortals to siphon off their energies in the form of blessings like at the same time, keeping the Daedra out with their Covenant with the mortals. So, not only did they weaken themselves when creating the planet, not only do they constantly have to dole out energy in the form of blessings, but they also have to keep STRONGER beings out, beings that aren't mortal like they are. That's a lot to do everyday outside of the odd intervention they do.

      The Hero of Kvatch figured it out anyways. Fuck, in my first playthrough, I figured it out quite easily, so there was no need for some Aedric divinity to go all Navi on me and hold my hand like I'm a fucking toddler on a bike. And Akatosh is kinda busy having created Nirn and doling out energy every day, so no shit, Akatosh and the other Aedric gods are gonna need champions like the Hero of Kvatch or the Dragonborn.

      They don't do more because they can't. Also, I don't see you making similar critiques of "good" Daedric princes like Azura or Meridia. Fuck, a player playing his cards right in Morrowind can kill the final boss in the first five minutes. I'm sure Azura, who isn't weakened by making Nirn, can spare more than a few minions and some energy for the Nerevarine so they can go through the game's back door and kill Dagoth Ur.

      At least Sanguine will wine and dine you first before plowing you. Bal won't.

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      I would like to ask if you two could stop quoting five messages when replying. Just one is enough.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      I would like to ask if you two could stop quoting five messages when replying. Just one is enough.

      Sorry, I got lazy with the snipping.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      It's fine. It just causes some lagg for others who decide to read this thread.

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      That's because they are disabled. Unlike capital G God who wasn't at all weakened when He made all of creation, the Aedra weakened themselves when they created Nirn. Technically, the Daedric Princes would be stronger than the Aedric divinities because A) they didn't weaken themselves in creating the world and B) they are immortal whilst the Aedric deities are not. They're literally mortal gods. And yet they allow the mortals to siphon off their energies in the form of blessings like at the same time, keeping the Daedra out with their Covenant with the mortals. So, not only did they weaken themselves when creating the planet, not only do they constantly have to dole out energy in the form of blessings, but they also have to keep STRONGER beings out, beings that aren't mortal like they are. That's a lot to do everyday outside of the odd intervention they do.

      The Hero of Kvatch figured it out anyways. Fuck, in my first playthrough, I figured it out quite easily, so there was no need for some Aedric divinity to go all Navi on me and hold my hand like I'm a fucking toddler on a bike. And Akatosh is kinda busy having created Nirn and doling out energy every day, so no shit, Akatosh and the other Aedric gods are gonna need champions like the Hero of Kvatch or the Dragonborn.

      They don't do more because they can't. Also, I don't see you making similar critiques of "good" Daedric princes like Azura or Meridia. Fuck, a player playing his cards right in Morrowind can kill the final boss in the first five minutes. I'm sure Azura, who isn't weakened by making Nirn, can spare more than a few minions and some energy for the Nerevarine so they can go through the game's back door and kill Dagoth Ur.

      At least Sanguine will wine and dine you first before plowing you. Bal won't.

      The Aedra can talk.  That was definitely proven in Oblivion when trying to pray at an altar with an Infamy that exceeds your Fame.  I don't think I'm asking them much, just do a little something more.  I know they're weakened and they're constantly answering the prayers of millions of mortals every day, but can they at least pay attention to the crises at hand rather than send some pre-destined hero and stop giving a shit?  I don't care if they just give some moral support, it's better than nothing.  Sanguine gives his support via drinking, drugs, and sex, and I'd be much happier as a hero knowing there's someone I can go cry to when there's a serious problem in my quest, not to mention how beneficial it would be to my quest.

      And yes, I'm aware of the differences between the sexual habits of Molag Bal and Sanguine.  It was pretty obvious to begin with.  Speaking of which, why do the people of Tamriel look down on Sanguine?  Dude just wants merryment.  He's almost like a cross between Dibella and Mara in that respect.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      That's because they are disabled. Unlike capital G God who wasn't at all weakened when He made all of creation, the Aedra weakened themselves when they created Nirn. Technically, the Daedric Princes would be stronger than the Aedric divinities because A) they didn't weaken themselves in creating the world and B) they are immortal whilst the Aedric deities are not. They're literally mortal gods. And yet they allow the mortals to siphon off their energies in the form of blessings like at the same time, keeping the Daedra out with their Covenant with the mortals. So, not only did they weaken themselves when creating the planet, not only do they constantly have to dole out energy in the form of blessings, but they also have to keep STRONGER beings out, beings that aren't mortal like they are. That's a lot to do everyday outside of the odd intervention they do.

      The Hero of Kvatch figured it out anyways. Fuck, in my first playthrough, I figured it out quite easily, so there was no need for some Aedric divinity to go all Navi on me and hold my hand like I'm a fucking toddler on a bike. And Akatosh is kinda busy having created Nirn and doling out energy every day, so no shit, Akatosh and the other Aedric gods are gonna need champions like the Hero of Kvatch or the Dragonborn.

      They don't do more because they can't. Also, I don't see you making similar critiques of "good" Daedric princes like Azura or Meridia. Fuck, a player playing his cards right in Morrowind can kill the final boss in the first five minutes. I'm sure Azura, who isn't weakened by making Nirn, can spare more than a few minions and some energy for the Nerevarine so they can go through the game's back door and kill Dagoth Ur.

      At least Sanguine will wine and dine you first before plowing you. Bal won't.

      The Aedra can talk.  That was definitely proven in Oblivion when trying to pray at an altar with an Infamy that exceeds your Fame.  I don't think I'm asking them much, just do a little something more.  I know they're weakened and they're constantly answering the prayers of millions of mortals every day, but can they at least pay attention to the crises at hand rather than send some pre-destined hero and stop giving a shit?  I don't care if they just give some moral support, it's better than nothing.  Sanguine gives his support via drinking, drugs, and sex, and I'd be much happier as a hero knowing there's someone I can go cry to when there's a serious problem in my quest, not to mention how beneficial it would be to my quest.

      And yes, I'm aware of the differences between the sexual habits of Molag Bal and Sanguine.  It was pretty obvious to begin with.  Speaking of which, why do the people of Tamriel look down on Sanguine?  Dude just wants merryment.  He's almost like a cross between Dibella and Mara in that respect.

      Talk about what? Shit that I can figure out myself? I was playing the game blind yet I didn't have a problem closing the Oblivion Gates.

      Also, Sanguine doesn't help you either. All he does is pull pranks. Let's say you pulled that prank at the Leyawiin castle for him and the guards catch up to you. Sanguine will be of no help for you while you're in jail, the same way the Aedra aren't. Stop putting the Daedra on a pedestal when they're just as useful/useless as the Aedra, despite being more powerful and actually being immortal.

      Because he doesn't give a shit if people get hurt in his pranks. What if the Countess of Leyawiin has you tortured to death for pulling that prank on her dinner? What if that Hagraven you fell in love with in Skyrim tears you to ribbons for rejecting her? Sanguine won't lift a finger.

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Talk about what? Shit that I can figure out myself? I was playing the game blind yet I didn't have a problem closing the Oblivion Gates.

      Also, Sanguine doesn't help you either. All he does is pull pranks. Let's say you pulled that prank at the Leyawiin castle for him and the guards catch up to you. Sanguine will be of no help for you while you're in jail, the same way the Aedra aren't. Stop putting the Daedra on a pedestal when they're just as useful/useless as the Aedra, despite being more powerful and actually being immortal.

      Because he doesn't give a shit if people get hurt in his pranks. What if the Countess of Leyawiin has you tortured to death for pulling that prank on her dinner? What if that Hagraven you fell in love with in Skyrim tears you to ribbons for rejecting her? Sanguine won't lift a finger.

      They could at least say "Thank you for saving all the cute little mortals of Tamriel for us".  And yet they don't.  Ever.  You'd think they'd be more grateful that someone saved their creations.

      And I'm not putting the Daedra on a pedestal.  Quite frankly, Namira creeps me out, Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon are jerkasses, Jyggalag is dull and unimaginative, Nocturnal can be a bit of a bitch sometimes, Vaermina is a bitch all the time, Boethiah is too socially-Darwinian for my tastes, Malacath does not know how to freaking chill, Mephala is a manipulative bastard, Meridia is extremely terse, and Peryite is just pathetic.  And I'm not saying Sanguine's a freaking saint, but he's not evil.  More of a Chaotic Neutral.  Like Sheogorath.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Talk about what? Shit that I can figure out myself? I was playing the game blind yet I didn't have a problem closing the Oblivion Gates.

      Also, Sanguine doesn't help you either. All he does is pull pranks. Let's say you pulled that prank at the Leyawiin castle for him and the guards catch up to you. Sanguine will be of no help for you while you're in jail, the same way the Aedra aren't. Stop putting the Daedra on a pedestal when they're just as useful/useless as the Aedra, despite being more powerful and actually being immortal.

      Because he doesn't give a shit if people get hurt in his pranks. What if the Countess of Leyawiin has you tortured to death for pulling that prank on her dinner? What if that Hagraven you fell in love with in Skyrim tears you to ribbons for rejecting her? Sanguine won't lift a finger.

      They could at least say "Thank you for saving all the cute little mortals of Tamriel for us".  And yet they don't.  Ever.  You'd think they'd be more grateful that someone saved their creations.

      And I'm not putting the Daedra on a pedestal.  Quite frankly, Namira creeps me out, Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon are jerkasses, Jyggalag is dull and unimaginative, Nocturnal can be a bit of a bitch sometimes, Vaermina is a bitch all the time, Boethiah is too socially-Darwinian for my tastes, Malacath does not know how to freaking chill, Mephala is a manipulative bastard, Meridia is extremely terse, and Peryite is just pathetic.  And I'm not saying Sanguine's a freaking saint, but he's not evil.  More of a Chaotic Neutral.  Like Sheogorath.

      The fact that they keep giving me blessings and curing me from diseases is thanks enough. Also, in Skyrim, they made me a Dragonborn, so again, that's more than enough thanks. In Oblivion, I'm a Daedric Prince, so I have little use for them patting me on the back.

      You kind of were, since you were saying that you'd rely on them rather than the Aedra. The thing is, they're both equally useful and problematic.

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Talk about what? Shit that I can figure out myself? I was playing the game blind yet I didn't have a problem closing the Oblivion Gates.

      Also, Sanguine doesn't help you either. All he does is pull pranks. Let's say you pulled that prank at the Leyawiin castle for him and the guards catch up to you. Sanguine will be of no help for you while you're in jail, the same way the Aedra aren't. Stop putting the Daedra on a pedestal when they're just as useful/useless as the Aedra, despite being more powerful and actually being immortal.

      Because he doesn't give a shit if people get hurt in his pranks. What if the Countess of Leyawiin has you tortured to death for pulling that prank on her dinner? What if that Hagraven you fell in love with in Skyrim tears you to ribbons for rejecting her? Sanguine won't lift a finger.

      They could at least say "Thank you for saving all the cute little mortals of Tamriel for us".  And yet they don't.  Ever.  You'd think they'd be more grateful that someone saved their creations.

      And I'm not putting the Daedra on a pedestal.  Quite frankly, Namira creeps me out, Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon are jerkasses, Jyggalag is dull and unimaginative, Nocturnal can be a bit of a bitch sometimes, Vaermina is a bitch all the time, Boethiah is too socially-Darwinian for my tastes, Malacath does not know how to freaking chill, Mephala is a manipulative bastard, Meridia is extremely terse, and Peryite is just pathetic.  And I'm not saying Sanguine's a freaking saint, but he's not evil.  More of a Chaotic Neutral.  Like Sheogorath.

      The fact that they keep giving me blessings and curing me from diseases is thanks enough. Also, in Skyrim, they made me a Dragonborn, so again, that's more than enough thanks. In Oblivion, I'm a Daedric Prince, so I have little use for them patting me on the back.

      You kind of were, since you were saying that you'd rely on them rather than the Aedra. The thing is, they're both equally useful and problematic.

      They give blessings and cure diseases for everyone.  And in Morrowind, what did they do?  Nothing, not a damn thing. 

      Can we just agree that all the Et'Ada suck in some way?  I mean, except Sheogorath.  Sheogorath for President 2020.  "Cheese for everyone!"

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Talk about what? Shit that I can figure out myself? I was playing the game blind yet I didn't have a problem closing the Oblivion Gates.

      Also, Sanguine doesn't help you either. All he does is pull pranks. Let's say you pulled that prank at the Leyawiin castle for him and the guards catch up to you. Sanguine will be of no help for you while you're in jail, the same way the Aedra aren't. Stop putting the Daedra on a pedestal when they're just as useful/useless as the Aedra, despite being more powerful and actually being immortal.

      Because he doesn't give a shit if people get hurt in his pranks. What if the Countess of Leyawiin has you tortured to death for pulling that prank on her dinner? What if that Hagraven you fell in love with in Skyrim tears you to ribbons for rejecting her? Sanguine won't lift a finger.

      They could at least say "Thank you for saving all the cute little mortals of Tamriel for us".  And yet they don't.  Ever.  You'd think they'd be more grateful that someone saved their creations.

      And I'm not putting the Daedra on a pedestal.  Quite frankly, Namira creeps me out, Molag Bal and Mehrunes Dagon are jerkasses, Jyggalag is dull and unimaginative, Nocturnal can be a bit of a bitch sometimes, Vaermina is a bitch all the time, Boethiah is too socially-Darwinian for my tastes, Malacath does not know how to freaking chill, Mephala is a manipulative bastard, Meridia is extremely terse, and Peryite is just pathetic.  And I'm not saying Sanguine's a freaking saint, but he's not evil.  More of a Chaotic Neutral.  Like Sheogorath.

      The fact that they keep giving me blessings and curing me from diseases is thanks enough. Also, in Skyrim, they made me a Dragonborn, so again, that's more than enough thanks. In Oblivion, I'm a Daedric Prince, so I have little use for them patting me on the back.

      You kind of were, since you were saying that you'd rely on them rather than the Aedra. The thing is, they're both equally useful and problematic.

      They give blessings and cure diseases for everyone.  And in Morrowind, what did they do?  Nothing, not a damn thing. 

      Can we just agree that all the Et'Ada suck in some way?  I mean, except Sheogorath.  Sheogorath for President 2020.  "Cheese for everyone!"

      But isn't Morrowind Azura's sphere of influence?

      Yes, Cheese for All!

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      But isn't Morrowind Azura's sphere of influence?

      Yes, Cheese for All!

      No, Azura's sphere of influence is twilight, i.e. dawn and dusk.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      But isn't Morrowind Azura's sphere of influence?

      Yes, Cheese for All!

      No, Azura's sphere of influence is twilight, i.e. dawn and dusk.

      And yet Azura was the one guiding the Nerevarine.

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      But isn't Morrowind Azura's sphere of influence?

      Yes, Cheese for All!

      No, Azura's sphere of influence is twilight, i.e. dawn and dusk.

      And yet Azura was the one guiding the Nerevarine.

      Because the gods didn't care.

      Like I said, most of the Et'Ada suck.  Azura is probably an exception to that rule, though.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      But isn't Morrowind Azura's sphere of influence?

      Yes, Cheese for All!

      No, Azura's sphere of influence is twilight, i.e. dawn and dusk.

      And yet Azura was the one guiding the Nerevarine.

      Because the gods didn't care.

      Like I said, most of the Et'Ada suck.  Azura is probably an exception to that rule, though.

      Azura didn't care for the Dragon Crisis or the Oblivion Crisis.

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    • Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Azura didn't care for the Dragon Crisis or the Oblivion Crisis.

      Probably a good reason for each.  Pretty sure Azura knew the power of Mehrunes Dagon and feared retribution if she sided with the mortals.  As for the Return of Alduin, beats me, she might have been more concerned about her star being defiled, which makes sense, because that might have threatened her power.  In other words, she might have had more pressing concerns, which is a valid reason in my eyes.  To be fair, she's probably more concerned about Morrowind in particular than the entirety of Tamriel, considering she's worshipped there.

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    • Pupdude wrote:

      Holy Galactic Emperor wrote:

      Azura didn't care for the Dragon Crisis or the Oblivion Crisis.

      Probably a good reason for each.  Pretty sure Azura knew the power of Mehrunes Dagon and feared retribution if she sided with the mortals.  As for the Return of Alduin, beats me, she might have been more concerned about her star being defiled, which makes sense, because that might have threatened her power.  In other words, she might have had more pressing concerns, which is a valid reason in my eyes.  To be fair, she's probably more concerned about Morrowind in particular than the entirety of Tamriel, considering she's worshipped there.

      Nope. Dagon isn't even the top dog among the Daedra. If he moved against Azura, the other Daedric princes wouldn't just sit on their ass. Also, once I got Azura's Star purified, why doesn't she help us out against the Dragon Crisis? Once I put her infected followers to rest, why didn't she help us out against Mehrunes Dagon? At least Meridia took an active role during the Planemeld in ESO.

      Those aren't valid reasons. Daedric princes like Azura are more powerful than Aedric gods and yet you complain about the latter doing less while giving the former a pass, even though the latter aren't only massively weakened by their creation of Nirn, but are also busy keeping the Daedra out. So yes, I was right-you're putting Daedric princes like Azura on a pedestal while complaining too much about the Aedric gods who are already busy with a lot of things.

      Also, as you said, Azura was the main worship focus of the Dark Elves, which probably explains why the Aedra didn't intervene with Dagoth Ur. Heck, the Aedra took the sides of the humans against the Ayleids because the latter were Daedra-worshipers. The Dark Elves worship the likes of Azura, Vivec, and Almalexia. Why would the Aedra help them?

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