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  • I just felt like writing some of the best Jarl trades in the Season Unending quest.

    Winterhold-Trade Jarl Korir for Kraldar, since Kraldar is not racist, and doesn't have a problem with the college of Winterhold. (Stormcloak to Imperial)

    Markarth-Trade Igmund for Thongvar Silver Blood, since Igmund is sort of unlikable (In my opinion), and the Silver-Bloods already basically own The Reach. (Imperial to Stormcloak)

    Dawnstar-Trade Skald the Elder for Brina Merilis, since Skald is kind of old and grumpy, and Brina is friendly, even before the quest. (Stormcloak to Imperial)

    Riften-Keep Laila Law-Giver as Jarl, since she actually tries as Jarl, and Maven Black-Briar would just get spoiled again, which she is used to. (Stormcloak)

    -Lastly, don't forget to kick Elenwen out of the council.

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    • 71.84.66.62 wrote:

      Silver-Bloods already basically own The Reach. (Imperial to Stormcloak)

      Maven Black-Briar would just get spoiled again, which she is used to. (Stormcloak)

      This is quite inconsistant. So it's okay for the Silverbloods because they "already basically own The Reach", but even though it's the same with Maven, you say she'll "get spoiled again"

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    • I would say most of your choices sound good, in my personal opinion atleast. But I assume others on the Wiki may disagree. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      I would say most of your choices sound good, in my personal opinion atleast. But I assume others on the Wiki may disagree. 

      And why would you assume that?

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    • Goldflame33 wrote:
      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      I would say most of your choices sound good, in my personal opinion atleast. But I assume others on the Wiki may disagree. 
      And why would you assume that?

      Because some people on the wiki have opposing opinions. I was simply stating mine. 

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    • Goldflame33 wrote:
      71.84.66.62 wrote:

      Silver-Bloods already basically own The Reach. (Imperial to Stormcloak)

      Maven Black-Briar would just get spoiled again, which she is used to. (Stormcloak)

      This is quite inconsistant. So it's okay for the Silverbloods because they "already basically own The Reach", but even though it's the same with Maven, you say she'll "get spoiled again"

      I just think Maven doesn't really do much for being a Jarl, and the Silver Bloods actually try to take actions more. Just an opinion. Plus, Laila Law-Giver actually tries to be a good Jarl.

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    • And Igmund didn't really do much.

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    • I think Maven is a better Jarl then Laila.

      Yes Laila is good hearted and tries to be a good Jarl but she is too naive and goodhearted. She doesn´t even know that Riften has a problem with the Thieves guild. Whereas Maven knows how to run a buisness and has influence on the thieves guild. On top of that Laila´s love for Ulfric is a little bit...misplaced.

      She seriously thought that her son was possessed because he had another opinion. Wich in my eyes kinda makes her dum and shows that she is open to manipulation.

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    • HahnDragoner523 wrote:
      I think Maven is a better Jarl then Laila.

      Yes Laila is good hearted and tries to be a good Jarl but she is too naive and goodhearted. She doesn´t even know that Riften has a problem with the Thieves guild. Whereas Maven knows how to run a buisness and has influence on the thieves guild. On top of that Laila´s love for Ulfric is a little bit...misplaced.

      She seriously thought that her son was possessed because he had another opinion. Wich in my eyes kinda makes her dum and shows that she is open to manipulation.

      Yeah, I guess you're right. It is nice to have Maven like you, and not give you snarky comments.

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    • Bah. Laila controls all of Riften, not Maven. Besides, Maven is too weak to rule.

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    • HahnDragoner523 wrote:
      I think Maven is a better Jarl then Laila.

      Yes Laila is good hearted and tries to be a good Jarl but she is too naive and goodhearted. She doesn´t even know that Riften has a problem with the Thieves guild. Whereas Maven knows how to run a buisness and has influence on the thieves guild. On top of that Laila´s love for Ulfric is a little bit...misplaced.

      She seriously thought that her son was possessed because he had another opinion. Wich in my eyes kinda makes her dum and shows that she is open to manipulation.

      Maven is too weak to be a Jarl. You do not think Maven can rule, and Laila is still in control of Riften. Maven Blackbriar is the weakest woman.

      Maven has no influence with the Thieves Guild. That is only on Alduin himself.

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    • Silverdragon234 wrote:
      HahnDragoner523 wrote:
      I think Maven is a better Jarl then Laila.

      Yes Laila is good hearted and tries to be a good Jarl but she is too naive and goodhearted. She doesn´t even know that Riften has a problem with the Thieves guild. Whereas Maven knows how to run a buisness and has influence on the thieves guild. On top of that Laila´s love for Ulfric is a little bit...misplaced.

      She seriously thought that her son was possessed because he had another opinion. Wich in my eyes kinda makes her dum and shows that she is open to manipulation.

      Maven is too weak to be a Jarl. You do not think Maven can rule, and Laila is still in control of Riften. Maven Blackbriar is the weakest woman.

      Maven has no influence with the Thieves Guild. That is only on Alduin himself.

      Laila in control of Riften, but still believes Maven is going to deal with the Thieves Guild

      Maven has no influence on the Thieves Guild, yet all of the Black-Briar family had ties to it and at least Brynjolf openly says he wouldn't cross Maven

      And what was this Alduin take again?

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    • Here is how I solve this: 1. Kick Thalmor B*tch out of Skyrim! The Thalmor have no right ruling Skyrim's goverment and their genocide of the Nords over Talos will not be accepted. Elenwen has to go she is the one who ordered your execution and we don't need the Thalmor in Skyrim. The Blades, Stormcloaks, and Graybeards hate the Thalmor and if you want ballance she has to go. 2. Give Markarth to the Stormcloaks. The Silverbloods are brutal and Igmund is hated by everyone placing Ulfric in control will take care of this problem. 3. Give Riften to the Empire. Maven is a better person than Laila the Theives Guild has taken over Riften and the Dark Brotherhood are killing people with Mavin in charge it will fix this problem.  4. Ulfric should surrender Karthwasten to the Imperials Ulfric is responcible for that massacre and the reason dragons are in the Reach give Karthwasten to the Imperials and it will stop the bloodshed and the dragon attacks. With this done you have a fare trade and both sides agree. If they don't agree give Falkreath and Winterhold to Ulfric and Dawnstar and Whiterun to the Inperials.      

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    • To kick Thalmor out of Skyrim, they have to win another war. 

      After all, events of Skyrim is a transitional period where the Empire is preparing for the next war with Aldmeri Dominion.

      The Thalmor won the previous war whether you like it or not. They are going to be there to stay unless the Stormcloaks can overthrow the Empire and set a new rule. Though kicking the Thalmor out isn't really the wisest choice but I can see why it is the only choice left for the hot-headed Nords of Skyrim. If all other opinions are shit and utter retardation, then you have to choose the least retarded option.

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    • Busiao No Laughs wrote:
      To kick Thalmor out of Skyrim, they have to win another war. 

      After all, events of Skyrim is a transitional period where the Empire is preparing for the next war with Aldmeri Dominion.

      The Thalmor won the previous war whether you like it or not. They are going to be there to stay unless the Stormcloaks can overthrow the Empire and set a new rule. Though kicking the Thalmor out isn't really the wisest choice but I can see why it is the only choice left for the hot-headed Nords of Skyrim. If all other opinions are shit and utter retardation, then you have to choose the least retarded option.

      You have never played Skyrim if you want ballance you must get rid of the Thalmor not the other way around. 

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    • Balance? Wrong. That is not my point.

      My point is the Thalmor won the previous Great War no matter how you spin it around. The fact is the Empire signed a treaty where it compromised with the Aldmeri Dominion to ban the worship of Talos. Whether the Empire obeys the treaty or not, the Empire did sign the treaty with that term. A treaty of peace, a temporary respite in preparation for another war.

      Attempting to make my words seem less important by claiming things like "I never played Skyrim" therefore hinting I lack knowledge of the game or lore before you even catch my original point is just suddenly butting into a conversation without understanding what that person is talking about

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    • The Thalmor worship the Deadra in particular Dagon they beleive that any god besides Dagon is haracy thats why they banned Talos. 

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    • Geomodelrailroader wrote:
      Here is how I solve this: 1. Kick Thalmor B*tch out of Skyrim! The Thalmor have no right ruling Skyrim's goverment and their genocide of the Nords over Talos will not be accepted. Elenwen has to go she is the one who ordered your execution and we don't need the Thalmor in Skyrim. The Blades, Stormcloaks, and Graybeards hate the Thalmor and if you want ballance she has to go. 2. Give Markarth to the Stormcloaks. The Silverbloods are brutal and Igmund is hated by everyone placing Ulfric in control will take care of this problem. 3. Give Riften to the Empire. Maven is a better person than Laila the Theives Guild has taken over Riften and the Dark Brotherhood are killing people with Mavin in charge it will fix this problem.  4. Ulfric should surrender Karthwasten to the Imperials Ulfric is responcible for that massacre and the reason dragons are in the Reach give Karthwasten to the Imperials and it will stop the bloodshed and the dragon attacks. With this done you have a fare trade and both sides agree. If they don't agree give Falkreath and Winterhold to Ulfric and Dawnstar and Whiterun to the Inperials.      

      Giving Markarth to Ulfric with not take care of this problem. Maven is not a better person than Laila, more manipulative, power hungry, tyrannical, (You know, just like Ulfric), she is not a good idea for a jarl. Putting Maven in charge will not stop the Dark Brotherhood because 1) if you did their quests then they're not even in the the southern part of Skyrim anymore. 2) They weren't even in the rift in the first place, they were by Falkreath not Riften. 3) Maven not only has shown no interest in taking down the Dark Brotherhood, there is no evidence to show that she even knows where their hideout is. 4) Maven may be a cold hearted, though somewhat smart, women, however she is no match for the Dark Brotherhood, a group of highly trained assassin's (Side Note: even though the one sanctuary was found out by the empire, it was given away by a member of the brotherhood, not anyone outside of it). Also even though the guy said that he wouldn't want to tangle with her, he's not in charge of the guild. You are, as the Dragonborn and you're perfectly ready to take on Maven, you could take her whole operation down with ease.

      Your #4 is wrong, Ulfric has no connection to dragons being in the reach. The massacre you're talking about is one of the very reason's why he should not control any of the holds at all, and why he's not fit to be high king of anything. Also, it doesn't matter who holds the reach it doesn't effect the amount of dragons around there, nor does it effect if they go away or not. Like I said Ulfirc didn't cause any dragons to show up. I don't think you understand, the Empire and the Stormcloaks aren't looking for a fair trade or agreeing with each other, this was never an option, the Empire is trying to end this quick (which they would have done had they killed Ulfric in Helgen) so they can get back to devoting their resouces to rebuilding their army and stopping the non elven world from being taken and killed off over by a race of elven supremacist's who think that all men should die and that they're the supieror race. 



      Also btw you don't seem to know how wars are fought, you don't just take a castle/hole across the continent from your other castle's/holds. You take them in the direction your going, so if you wanted whiterun then your next stop would most likely be falkreath. You have to understand that geography plays a big part in this war.

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    • This isn't just for Skyrim's independence. This is for Tamriel. If the Septim Empire has any luck of getting rid of the radical elves, they need that orb...

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    • Busiao No Laughs wrote:
      Balance? Wrong. That is not my point.

      My point is the Thalmor won the previous Great War no matter how you spin it around. The fact is the Empire signed a treaty where it compromised with the Aldmeri Dominion to ban the worship of Talos. Whether the Empire obeys the treaty or not, the Empire did sign the treaty with that term. A treaty of peace, a temporary respite in preparation for another war.

      A few things wrong with this:

      1.) The Emperor only signed the treaty after 4 years of war, which resulted in both sides exhausting too much resources to continue fighting.

      2.) The Emperor tricked the Thalmor into believing he'd surrender earlier in the war.  

      3.) In Hammerfell, Lady Arranelya's force was ultimately pushed back despite little resistance from the south & making it up to Skaven. A combination of "Invalids" (Imperials left behind) and Alik'r warriors defeated her army & forced them to sign the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai.

      4.) The Dominion lost the final battle of the war; The Battle of the Red Ring. Lord Naarifin was also executed (in a manner of speaking; hung for 33 days before killing him) at the end of this battle.

      Neither side "won", nor were in any shape to continue in-face of their loss of resources. It was a stalemate which closed with a concordat: "An agreement or treaty between two sovereign states relating to matters of mutual interest".

      What do the Imperials really care if Talos is no longer treated as one of the "Divines"?  They originally worshiped Eight Divines, and Talos was only added to their ranks to appease the Nords.

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    • Eh... I shouldn't have needed to say all these but apparently it seems like I do now... the Thalmor still had what it takes to keep fighting in Hammerfell with reinforcements from the Empire for another 5 years. So what you said is wrong.

      You are seriously underestimating the damages that can be done to a nation if the nation itself is the battlefield. Sure the numbers look pretty at the end of the Battle of Red Ring, that was the purpose of that battle. Appearance and pride at expense of detriment to both sides (AD and Empire but with exponentially higher detriment to the Empire)

      It was said that the AD committed war crimes (massacres) in the captured Cyrodiilic cities and they held these cities for a few years. AD soldiers massacre the population, establish military laws and deprive all of you plebs of your rights as human beings. All of you understandably pissed off, rebel against AD, cause trouble for AD's dictatorship and utter lack of any respect for you as human being. AD retaliates with another Nanking Massacre 2.0 or Hilter's final solution to the Jewish problem 2.0. Kills even more people in the Cyrodiilic cities, rinse and repeat.... to put it short. You're gonna have like thousands death within a week including soldiers, tens of thousands in a month, hundreds of thousands to over a million deaths right before Battle of Red Ring. 

      Sure battle of Red Ring was detrimental to the Aldmeri Dominion. But a single large battle is no substitute for the damages done by people fighting at your home. Use common sense, if you are in AD's shoes why won't you deliberately maximize collateral damage when the battlefield is your enemy's home. The damage suffered by the Empire is still far greater than you seem to think. Talos worship is a political tool used by the Imperials, this is very obvious and not worth talking about. Well, since in ES, gods are real. I guess, yeah it has more clout. But most mortals have no business meddling with the divines or daedras as far as I can tell. 

      While there are Nords who stayed with the Empire despite the Talos ban and Thalmor coming down harder on everyone due to the radical Stormcloaks... let's just say as much as many people (including myself) have issues with Stormcloaks, they themselves are factual evidence that there are an armed group of Nords who are openly hostile towards the Imperial rule.

      So what is the purpose of the Battle of Red Ring? And what it actually does? The Empire... Emperor did in the battle of Red Ring was to tip the extremely uneven scales to a less uneven scale so that the Empire had more clout on the negotiation table. It can be seen in the terms of treaty. If the damages were as great to the Aldmeri Dominion and the uneven scales were even up as much as you claimed, then the negotiation table wouldn't be as unfavorable.

      The Ultimatum and Concordat terms.

      Ultimatum Terms

      Demands the Empire give a large amount of gold and large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Dominion, banning worship of Talos, disbandment of Blades

      White Gold Concordat

      Empire still give large portion of Southern Hammerfell to Dominion, ban Talos worship and disband the Blades. Out of the 4 things Ultimatum demands, only 1 thing was removed and it was gold.

      About AD retreating, it was basically Hammerfell being able to take the damages as a single Province. People seem to overestimate the help the Empire gave by discharging Redguard soldiers back to Hammerfell after THE ENTIRE IMPERIAL LEGION FIGHTING STRENGTH HAVE BEEN DIMINISHED TO UNDER HALF (With the talk about all legions had less than half soldiers not uninjured)

      Plus I think people forget that Empire had drafted a large number of Redguard soldiers from Hammerfell to save their skin in Battle of Red Ring while Redguards in Hammerfell just started to push the Aldmeri Dominion back. Other than the fact that one can see the act of discharging Redguard Soldiers back to Hammerfell as Empire returning the soldiers they took earlier... there's another major issue that was not addressed.

      Let's just say that drafting even 1 soldier when they needed that 1 extra soldier the most is far more detrimental than giving them 100 soldiers when the momentum was already broken and key opportunity to turn things around had been lost. Note: I am not saying it doesn't help at all having additional soldiers. Having additional soldiers will help but not as much as you want to think and also it certainly doesn't balance up the detriments of halting Redguard Soldiers' momentum in Hammerfell and move all the way to Cyrodiil to fight battle of Red Ring.

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    • Busiao No Laughs wrote:
      Eh... I shouldn't have needed to say all these but apparently it seems like I do now... the Thalmor still had what it takes to keep fighting in Hammerfell with reinforcements from the Empire for another 5 years. So what you said is wrong.

      Except those "reinforcements" were already there in Hammerfell in the first place during the Great War; it's the same Dominion army led by Lady Arannelya. You're misplacing the order of events in the Great War. That's really all that needs to be said.

      Meanwhile, you're overestimating the Dominion's military strength (of which the specifics are left unclear).

      We don't even need to exaggerate how great the Imperial "Invalid" force left behind by Decianus was, when the main contributors to Arannelya's defeat were the Alik'r warriors.

      Besides, did you even account for the passage of 26 years since the official end of the Great War? Losing half their entire fighting strength by 4E175 (just as likely for the Dominion) doesn't mean they suddenly can't replenish it by 4E201. Which is more than likely why it's even mentioned in a Missive that a 2nd Legion is already poised to invade Skyrim in the unlikely event that Tullius loses.

      What source are you even getting this "drafted a large number of Redguard soldiers from Hammerfell to save their skin in Battle of Red Ring" from? Looks like you're making this up.

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    • I didn't make up the drafting soldiers from Hammerfell part.

      "In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east"

      Just because General Decianus left a large number of Hammerfell soldiers behind IN HAMMERFELL doesn't mean that Hammerfell didn't lose soldiers because the Empire still ordered Decianus to take a sizable army to Cyrodiil. It is a fact that the Imperials took soldiers from Skyrim and Hammerfell to save their skin!

      Both Skyrim and Hammerfell had soldiers taken to Cyrodiil to join the Battle of Red Ring. That is factual. In fact, the lack of Nord Soldiers in Skyrim (Markarth) can partially be attributed to why the Forsworn were able to capture Markarth for a while. Also the Battle of Red Ring were factually stated to have caused all Legions to have less than half fighting strength. That is also indirect cause of why Markarth couldn't have been taken back without external help (Windhelm/Ulfric)

      I said already, losing 1 extra soldier for a crucial moment is far worse than giving 100 soldiers when opportunity or momentum was already lost.

      It is a fact that Hammerfell had a large number of soldiers taken from it when the Empire ordered Decianus to go help save Imperial City.

      Before Decianus left, a large portion of the success AD had was due to surprise element and the disunity between the Crowns and Forebears as shown in the Great War book. Before Decianus left, Crowns and Forebear reconcile, the tide of battle was making a 180° turn. After Decianus left with the army to take part in Battle of Red Ring, though the Redguards were still dishing out the pain to the Aldmeri army, the scales never quite turn as much as before and the continued war in Hammerfell eventually led to a stalemate.

      Again I have to say: Losing even a single soldier at the time you need that 1 Soldier the most is far more detrimental than giving them reinforcement of an entire Imperial Legion when the opportunity is lost.

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    • It's right there in the sentence; he discharged soldiers. That's not drafting.

      If anything, it's a fact that Decianus didn't actually need that many soldiers to provide support for the Emperor during Red Ring.

      So a "fact" that you're incapable of proving. You just keep insisting it's true.

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    • It isn't a 'fact' 

      It is a fact that an army from Hammerfell was taken to Cyrodiil. It is a fact and you keep insisting it isn't and tries to discredit my comment by saying I can't prove it is true when it is right there. 

      Are you saying it is false that Decianus was not ordered to bring a legion albeit one that's not as much as he can bring to Cyrodiil? Are you discrediting the fact that Hammerfell, High Rock and Skyrim did not bring reinforcements to help the Emperor to retake the Imperial City?

      Oh by the way, even the Battle of Red Ring wasn't entirely the Emperor's credit. It was the Forgotten Hero who destroyed the Clairoyance Crystal, which provided a consistent pseudo opportunity advantage, it was the Forbidden Hero who killed the Daedra and took Goldbrand from the Aldmeri Army. It was the Forbidden Hero who led the charge and kill Naarifin before the large scale Daedra summoning ritual which would've spelled the end of the pathetic excuse you called Battle of Red Ring in the Aldmeri Dominion's favor.

      Also it is a fact that the Great War was fought using the Empire lands as battlefield will means 100% of the collateral damage was inflicted on Cyrodiil and Hammerfell. It is also a fact that even Skyrim as shown in the game that was affected by the lack of soldiers namely Markarth Incident.

      It can't be helped, Imperial City needed the soldiers. But that doesn't mean I should completely pretend these facts don't exist and still dare to pretend I am seeing this in unbiased view.

      It is a fact that when the Aldmeri Dominion invaded Hammerfell and Cyrodiil, the two Empire provinces, they needed to mobilize soldiers from High Rock and Skyrim to fight the AD forces.

      It is a fact that result of the Emperor's need for Battle of Red Ring to occur that he had to order an army from Hammerfell and Skyrim to gather at Cyrodiil. 

      It is a fact that Forsworn used the vacanted defenses due to a large number of soldiers was pulled out of Skyrim to take over Markarth.

      It is a fact that the Imperial Legions that took part in Red Ring sufffered great losses as it is a fact that none of the Legions (High Rock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil and Skyrim) were left with less than half of their original fighting strength.

      These are all facts you are denying nothing more, nothing less.

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    • It's a fact that the army Decianus took "from" Hammerfell was already his own that he led there in the first place.

      We all know about the Forgotten Hero by now. That factor doesn't detract from anything; only that he's the one responsible for stopping Naarifin's true goal.

      Literally none of the remaining facts prove Decianus conducted a draft, but you're wasting time by claiming I'm "denying" your strawman points. Still waiting.

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    • Draft isn't the correct word as far as you are concerned. You are still waiting for people to spoonfeed you by completely ignoring the fact that the damages done to Empire will surely be far greater than it was to the Aldmeri Dominion simply by the fact that the war was fought on Cyrodiill and Hammerfell.

      Well you are too blind to understand what I said. Let me spoonfeed you.

      My whole point was even if Decianus did leave a lot of 'invalids' behind in Hammerfell. It was a fact that Decianus was t'he General of Imperial Legion 'in Hammerfell aka both Decianus and his soldiers are Hammerfell's army.

      Deny as much as you want. Try to discredit me as much as you want. It doesn't change the fact that your attempts to decredit my words can't change the fact that

      ONE ONE, with THE LEGIONS FROM HAMMERFELL UNDER DECIANUS, was hidden in the Colovian Highlands near Chorrol 

      Oh where is Colovian Highlands nera Chorrol? Oh you can't find that in Hammerfell because it is part of Cyrodiil. What was that you said? Empire didn't take soldiers from Hammerfell to save their hide in Battle of Red Ring? What the hell is AN ENTIRE ARMY MADE OUT OF LEGIONS from HAMMERFELL doing in Cyrodiil?

      Maybe draft is not the right word for you because you go out of balance to extreme when hearing things that appears to be unfavorable to this fictional Empire. 

      I merely stated observations and stated factual effects of what was described.

      1. Collateral damages done to a nation when the country itself becomes battlefield. Just look at Great Britain after WWII. It wasn't doing so great (I think some billion pounds worth of debt) and all nations who had war fought in their lands share the same fate. They all needed external help to get back on their feets. This is a fact that when any nation itself becomes the battlefield for a war, it suffers greatly. It suffers far greater than those that didn't have the war fought in their lands. 

      This is because if it was just soldiers fighting, which was the case for AD, then the damages even though severe, it was restricted to military only.

      If the fighting was done in the nation itself, then the damages include the foundation of the nation. Who knows if there's some sick Thalmor bastard who decided to go on a Nanking Massacred: ALL YOUR CHILDREN ONLY Version or Maybe inflict Final Solution to your Children Problem and brutally murder as many children as possible.

      This is not funny. It is not meant to be funny. This is to let you know cruelty of war can exceed this greatly. All these will attribute towards foundational damages to your fictional Empire.

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    • You're the one who tried to argue Decianus conducted a draft. Dodging it doesn't change the fact you were wrong.

      It's too bad that what I'm actually "denying" is something you still can't prove.

      Good strawman.

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    • As interesting as a debate about how devastated the Empire is in comparison to the Aldmeri Dominion, it's a little off topic for this thread; after all, this is supposed to be about jarl exchanges in the Civil War, so please try to steer this back in that direction.

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    • It wasn't a straw man as you tries to use to discredit my point. Just a wrong choice of word which you desperately latched onto when I stated clearly it was a wrong choice of word for someone like you. The whole point was soldiers were drawn out of the Hammerfell when it needed soldiers the most. But Ottoman is right. It is a topic about Jarl Exchanges in Civil War. 

      @Ottoman

      In terms of the Jarls, most of them, if not all are disposable. But I think the ones that desperately needs to go (as in "make finger slide across neck action") there's this saying: Execution of Nine Clans. This is the monarch's act of executing the whole family (up to Great Grand Parents/children), Cousin's whole families, Cousin's cousin whole families. That is required upon 2 potential Jarls' entire "9 Clans"

      They are the Black Briars and Silverbloods. Killing off the entire family, their cousins and cousins' cousins is call amputating the arm and leg that are beyond help for far greater benefit in the future.

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    • Busiao No Laughs wrote:
      It wasn't a straw man as you tries to use to discredit my point. Just a wrong choice of word which you desperately latched onto when I stated clearly it was a wrong choice of word for someone like you. The whole point was soldiers were drawn out of the Hammerfell when it needed soldiers the most.

      You kept stating facts that were irrelevant to the immediate discussion, treating them as if I "denied" them instead of what we were actually arguing about. That's what a strawman is.

      Off-topic or not, as long as you keep this up, I'll just keep noting that you were wrong in the first place.

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    • You are equally responsible for shifting the topic in this direction.

      My original post in this conversation was

      "To kick Thalmor out of Skyrim, they have to win another war. 

      After all, events of Skyrim is a transitional period where the Empire is preparing for the next war with Aldmeri Dominion.

      The Thalmor won the previous war whether you like it or not. They are going to be there to stay unless the Stormcloaks can overthrow the Empire and set a new rule. Though kicking the Thalmor out isn't really the wisest choice but I can see why it is the only choice left for the hot-headed Nords of Skyrim. If all other opinions are shit and utter retardation, then you have to choose the least retarded option"

      In your imbalanced mind, you completely missed my original point and focused on the less important + sarcasm. You are the one who hurriedly jumped to white knight for the fictional Empire giving excuses claiming them to be valid points which started the conversation that led to me stating about you Empire white knights often greatly underestimate the damages done to a nation it is to become battlefield.

      I merely used the fact that Decianus was ordered to mobilize his army to support Cyrodiil when he was still fighting against the Aldmeri Dominion in Hammerfell to prove how urgent the situation was, how necessary the Battle of Red Ring was for the Empire. 

      Deny all you want, all the attempts to discredit my point is pointless before the facts that in Battle of Red Ring, General Decianus was ordered to bring legions, (not just 1 legion) to form an army in addition to Skyrim and Cyrodiil's forces to fight in the Battle of Red Ring

      I've also gave a little extra, stating how I observed a lot of Imperials fans seem to neglect the fact that Cyrodiil and Hammerfell had a 4-9 years longer war fought in their lands and that the effects of having your own homeland become battlefield inflicts far more damages to the nation.

      A very simple example of damages done comparison between both sides (Empire before GW and AD)

      Aldmeri Dominion notable damages. 1 Aldmeri Army destroyed in Cyrodiil. 1 Aldmeri Army suffer heavy losses and retreated from Southern Hammerfell.  All Military damages. What about damages to AD provinces? Nill or not sufficient to report or noted.

      Empire notable damages. Cyrodiil became battlefield. Leyawiin and Imperial City captured. A legion (8th) confirmed wiped out by the Book. More than half of the Armies that took part in Red Ring battle were more or less taken out or not sufficient to bring the fight to AD. That means more than 50% of Hammerfell, High Rock, Skyrim and Cyrodiil soldiers were downed. 

      Bravil not stated (It should've fallen that's how things work unless Thalmor are idiots and that the Empire is incompetent fools for having problems with idiots)

      IF the Empire didn't lose like you claim, they wouldn't need to sign the treaty that favors the AD aka accepting almost all of their terms. The only reason a bigger Nation accepts so many terms and not demand anything from a smaller nation is that the bigger Nation have been humilated. 

      Everything the Emperor did, the Battle of Red Ring and all the arguments are to defend the Empire's dignity so that the Empire won't fall apart. It was a necessity that is not all glorious as you try to picture. 

      Which indirectly leads to a few things. Such as denouncing Hammerfell and the civil war that the Thalmor simply gave a small push to break out.

      All these facts are here, but people still view the Battle of Red Ring as super glorious victory over the Aldmeri Dominion during Great War acting like the Empire can always destroy the Aldmeri Dominion when all the Empire's actions has been trying to get the Thalmor off their backs and the Thalmor actively looking for ways to cause trouble. That is not behavior of someone who wins a war. It is just not as bad as having your lands taken over and living without dignity and any human rights under your new overlords.

      Drive the Thalmor out of Skyrim, people say it so easily. IF they can in the lore, Thalmor would've been driven out of the Empire as a whole. No need to wait for the godly Dragonborn to go massacre them in the game.

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    • This is another attempt to return to the original topic.

      Like I said I think all the Jarls are expendable and their deaths wouldn't change much because there will be people who can replace them and probably do equally shitty job.

      The only reason why I don't see any pressing need to change the Jarls is because the current ones are doing a shitty job, but if their successors are going to do equally shitty jobs then there's really no point. So with exception of completely erasing Maven Black Briar and Silver-bloods entire blood lines from existence. I think any of the candidates are fine. Perhaps if you have a preference to the waste of tim- I mean Civil War, then you will have to be restricted in Stormcloaks or Imperials siding Jarls.

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    • What are you trying to accomplish by acting like I denied shared responsibility in derailing the topic?

      IF the Empire lost, they'd be losing a whole lot more territory than just Hammerfell; Cyrodiil would be conquered by the Dominion if "victory" was theirs for one thing, and Naarifin likely would still be around. You still haven't proven that Decianus "drafted" anyone, and it's obvious Decianus didn't need anymore forces than he already left Hammerfell with, because all he did was link up with Jonna's. Furthermore, your assertions of the Empire suffering far greater losses than the Dominion aren't backed up by the relevant source, not at all telling us the Dominion was any better off; Your whole counterargument relies on strawmen all around, and a baseless assumption about the Dominion's actual numbers. That's honestly the only thing left that needs to be said about this.

      Edit: But let's not forget the fact that the only two known commanders of Dominion forces were Naarifin & Arannelya, and the former led the main force. Naarifin's force was utterly destroyed in the Battle of the Red Ring, and Arannelya's suffered heavy losses as they retreated across the Alik'r Desert.

      What more to be said? I don't need to "white knight" for the Empire to acknowledge you're wrong.

      BUT to also contribute to the actual on-topic discussion:

      Trading Laila Law-Giver out for Maven Black-Briar is of direct benefit to the Empire, considering gaining the Rift gives them closer access to Morrowind as well as an optimal staging point for invading Eastmarch. Maven's also got connections with the Empire, so it would only benefit her to do business with Imperials.

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    • Laila, Maven and Maven's whole family needs to go for long term benefit of Riften. Maven is a short term advantage for Riften but long term detriment to Skyrim and even the Empire. Also you were acting like I was solely responsible for derailing the topic

      This is the third time you mentioned the word draft, you clinged onto the past when I have clearly stated it was a wrong choice of word. 

      My whole point Decianus's army fought Arannelya's forces to a standstand went to regroup in order to have round two with Arannelya. I am going to use an aged old fact.

      Bigger numbers = higher chance of higher effectiveness

      To prevent derailing the topic any further I will make another thread about the detriment of damages done to Empire during Great War

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    • I can see why you'd claim Maven's benefit to the Empire would only be short-term, but this topic is about which Jarls are the better trade; short-term or otherwise. Maven's by far the better deal, especially if they want a better entrance-point into Morrowind.

      Decianus himself didn't get a "round two" with Arannelya. It was just his Invalids left behind with the Alik'r warriors. Not to mention we never were given any exact numbers of that combined force either.

      But, related to the topic, we DO know that the legion mentioned in the Neugrad Missive is at least already poised to invade Skyrim should Tullius somehow fail; so that's yet another advantage of taking Riften/having Maven as Jarl.

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    • It also proves that the Empire is unsure about their forces in Skyrim and needs to commit at least 1 additional Legion FROM Cyrodiil to the Civil War. At least ONE additional worth of Legion and resources to internal fighting = at least 1 additional Legion drawn away from the frontlines where the Aldmeri Army was implied to be stationed at.

      I said that all the Jarls are expendable but there's an urgent need to utterly destroy the Black Briar and Silver-Blood Family because I ain't give any shit about protecting the interest of the Empire. If the Empire is run by capable hands, then they don't need to fear a Riften rule by unbiased strong leadership that will make Riften so strong that even the Imperial Legion will think twice about coming after them if they want to declare independent.

      Because an Empire that is strong, capable and worked hard to gain real strength will have the respect required for Provinces to stay in it willingly. 

      Let's say Riften in Skyrim = Power level of 10

      Total Power level of Skyrim = 90

      Empire in Skyrim = Power level of 200

      Having Maven as Jarl will only allow the Empire to keep Riften in Power level of 10 in the Empire while she and her family continues to corrupt Skyrim and in the long run Skyrim will drop to 89, 88 or less.

      What I had intended was giving Empire benefit of the doubt that it will become a 400 or even 500. If that is the case, a Riften will temporarily drop to 5 but will become 20 or even 40 would be more beneficial to the Empire especially the Riften who is a 40 is willing to stay with the Empire.

      Also the Jarl replacement of Riften I had in mind is Saerlund Law-giver. 

      Reason: Saerlund maybe Laila's son, but unlike the rest of his family that are Stormcloaks fanatics, he possess the will, critical thinking capabilities and balls to speak his mind and not let environment (Common masses) influence him, he can stand on the Stormcloak's side and look at their merits but is still able to stand beside the Imperial Legion, the fact that he can look at multiple perspectives means he saw the Empire's flaws as well but still remained unaffected and had a clear view of the big picture. That right there is unpolished Jarl material. Sure he sounds like a salty kid who got disowned. But he is an inferior choice in the short term than Maven but a far better choice in the long run.

      Maven and her whole family needs to die. Every single one of them. Dead. Not even any of their newborn baby, their dog, cat are allowed to survive. Erase 9 lines of their blood from existence so that the money they hogged can flow back to Riften. Have the Black Briar Mead go to someone who can allow the Honningbrew Mead exist. So that Skyrim will have Black Briar and Honningbrew Mead and may the truly best Mead maker wins in a fair competition.

      The same goes for Silver-bloods. They need to be erased from existence for the long term good of Markarth. 

      Sure it sounds bad for the current pathetic Empire if two of the 9 Holds are given chance to get twice as strong. But like I said, if Empire is strong and confident, it has nothing to worry about.

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