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  • Those of you who have used the orginal Super Thread will know that it is getting too big to manage and it is causing some problems with older computers. So This is the new Super Thread. As always no flame wars and only talk about the Civil War.

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    • So i'll begin

      Sons of Skyrim shall prevail.....!!!!

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    • I'm a true son of Skyrim all hail Talos

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    • @Storm and Awesome lol. So has anyone wondered why all soldiers in the vanilla game are complete idiots. All they do is charge at you.

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    • They probably get drunk every meal, to forget how bad their food is or because they are really, really depressed that they hav to kill their kinsmen.

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    • I am playing as a Bosmer, which side do I choose and who do I follow during Unbound?

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    • During unbound it makes more sense to follow Ralof no matter which side you want to join later on because which sane person would follow the guy who just tried to kill you?

      As for which side you want it doesn't really matter since the Bosmer are part of the Dominion. But realistically it would make more sense to join the Legion. Though it depends on how you are roleplaying. If you are roleplaying a bosmer that has lived in Skyrim his whole life then he could also join the Stormcloaks.

      About the stupidity of the soldier's AI in Skyrim that is Bethesda's fault. There a quite a few mods out there that makes enemy AI much smarter and makes them work together and actually use strategy in a fight.

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    • Anyway Why do the Stormcloaks install the head of the Silver-Bloods as Jarl. Isn't he a indirect ally of the Forsworn.

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    • Maybe they didn't know.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      During unbound it makes more sense to follow Ralof no matter which side you want to join later on because which sane person would follow the guy who just tried to kill you?

      i've always choose Hadvar, even though i'm a Stormcloak lover cuz following him will make us able to get more profit, as we will get some Pretty Free Valuable Stuffs from Alvor if we sided with Hadvar.

      But well it think which side that we choose is up to whether if we're a profit seeker or a reasonable one....... 

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:
      Anyway Why do the Stormcloaks install the head of the Silver-Bloods as Jarl. Isn't he a indirect ally of the Forsworn.

      What's Wrong with that, Alduin.... ?

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    • Well the Stormcloaks hate the Forsworn so why would they install someone who is helping them 

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    • I'm surprised we haven't seen Draevan yet. He usually goes on these things. 

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:
      Well the Stormcloaks hate the Forsworn so why would they install someone who is helping them 

      Dunno.... but well unlike Igmund (or was it he & his daddy) who indirectly was the one who pull the savagery out of the Reachmens,  Silver-Bloods are wealthy Talos fans.... so.... ah.....

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    • Alduin1996 wrote: Anyway Why do the Stormcloaks install the head of the Silver-Bloods as Jarl. Isn't he a indirect ally of the Forsworn.

      No they aren't allies. The Silver-Blood are trying to use the Forsworn for their own advantage. That is why they imprisoned the King in Rags in Cidna Mine. Though the forsworn are smarter than they seem and have been undermining the Silver-Bloods and messing with them.

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    • Stormblind wrote:

      Alduin1996 wrote:
      Well the Stormcloaks hate the Forsworn so why would they install someone who is helping them 

      Dunno.... but well unlike Igmund (or was it he & his daddy) who indirectly was the one who pull the savagery out of the Reachmens,  Silver-Bloods are wealthy Talos fans.... so.... ah.....

      It was Ingmund, his father was killed when the Forsworn took over during the Great War. Also he just hired Ulfric, he did nothing to help.

      The Silver-Bloods are more or less a Stormcloak version of the Black-Briars. Though without the ties with the Thalmor/Dark Brotherhood/Thieves Guild that Maven has. And without the weird family relationships that the Black-Briars have.

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    • I have returned to talk of the most pointless war of Tamriel's recent history.

      Actually, this post is just a musing of a weary veteran. Short story: the war cannot be justified regardless of side.

      The long story: every new file I start, I find myself less willing to participate in the Civil War or get involved in any way--something the game forces you to do before tackling Alduin with negotiating a cease-fire. The skinny: Ulfric and many Nords are upset about the WGC (justifiably so), and so is Tullius (ironic, isn't it?), and start a war (which may or may not be based purely on greed)--the problem: the Empire has become weak and bureaucratic, but the most unfavorable typs among the Stormcloaks would love to see all non-Nords out of Skyrim.

      Would I like to see a free Skyrim? Yes. Would I want someone as hot-tempered and emotionally driven as Ulfric as High King? No. Most importantly, do I want to earn this freedom by spilling the blood of Nords of both sides and (in so doing) dramatically weaken Skyrim's ability to defend itself when the Dominion comes knocking? Well, what do you think I feel?

      At the end of the line, the more I play, the impact siding with anyone seems to have, and yet negotiating the cease-fire feels even more pointless. What Bethesda has done with the Civil War is offer two different roller-coaster rides, rather than an open world with significant decisions.

      I trust I'm not the only one to feel like this.

      Sincerely,

      A Bitter Cynic

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    • ^to be fair Ulfrics character isnt "hot headed" as much as motivated, im assuming your talking about the tone of his voice in his speeches because thats the only sign i could draw to being hot headed, even so i would say hes just getting his men pumped for battle more then anything else, when you talk to him alone hes actually very calm and collected.

      also the Empire is weakened as it is so even without a Civil War they probly dont stand a chance against the Dominion at this point, if the Thalmor believed the Empire would rebuild and would have become so powerful in 30 years to threaten them they would have destroyed what was left of the Empire back in the War instead of letting it rebuild. Do i think the Nords should completely cut ties with the Empire? no, thats a stupid move. Should the Empire recognize Skyrims independance? yes. you gain Ulfric, whos a much more seasoned ruler than that Elsif who cant govern to save her life, and someone who faught the Thalmore and was even one of their agents in Skyrim prior to giving them the finger and stopped taking orders.

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    • Arrgh! I was hoping to stay out of this!! Alright. Either side I take, I feel like a traitor to these people:

      Stormcloaks: Balgruuf, Hadvar, Alvor, Legate Rikke, and an OC of mine who'd profit from Maven becoming Jarl.

      Imperials: Talos, Ralof, the Companions (Heavily Stormcloak Influenced), and another OC who was a Werebear Stormcloak-Loving Nord Woman.

      (My OC Dragonborn remains neutral until after the Dragon Crisis, then he becomes a Stormcloak and betrays his Jarl.)

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote: ^to be fair Ulfrics character isnt "hot headed" as much as motivated, im assuming your talking about the tone of his voice in his speeches because thats the only sign i could draw to being hot headed, even so i would say hes just getting his men pumped for battle more then anything else, when you talk to him alone hes actually very calm and collected.

      also the Empire is weakened as it is so even without a Civil War they probly dont stand a chance against the Dominion at this point, if the Thalmor believed the Empire would rebuild and would have become so powerful in 30 years to threaten them they would have destroyed what was left of the Empire back in the War instead of letting it rebuild. Do i think the Nords should completely cut ties with the Empire? no, thats a stupid move. Should the Empire recognize Skyrims independance? yes. you gain Ulfric, whos a much more seasoned ruler than that Elsif who cant govern to save her life, and someone who faught the Thalmore and was even one of their agents in Skyrim prior to giving them the finger and stopped taking orders.

      Ulfric was never a thalmor agent. What happened is that in the Great War he was captured before the Dominion took the Imperial City. The Thalmor tortured him and eventually he gave up some info, though it was useless by the time they got it. Since the Dominion had taken the city long ago. But he didn't know that and the Thalmor made him think that the info he gave them was the major cause for them to capture the city.

      What could have happened is that they blackmailed him into helping them before he started the Stormcloak Rebellion. he obviously would never willingly work for them.

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    • 72.211.162.201 wrote: I have returned to talk of the most pointless war of Tamriel's recent history.

      Actually, this post is just a musing of a weary veteran. Short story: the war cannot be justified regardless of side.

      The long story: every new file I start, I find myself less willing to participate in the Civil War or get involved in any way--something the game forces you to do before tackling Alduin with negotiating a cease-fire. The skinny: Ulfric and many Nords are upset about the WGC (justifiably so), and so is Tullius (ironic, isn't it?), and start a war (which may or may not be based purely on greed)--the problem: the Empire has become weak and bureaucratic, but the most unfavorable typs among the Stormcloaks would love to see all non-Nords out of Skyrim.

      Would I like to see a free Skyrim? Yes. Would I want someone as hot-tempered and emotionally driven as Ulfric as High King? No. Most importantly, do I want to earn this freedom by spilling the blood of Nords of both sides and (in so doing) dramatically weaken Skyrim's ability to defend itself when the Dominion comes knocking? Well, what do you think I feel?

      At the end of the line, the more I play, the impact siding with anyone seems to have, and yet negotiating the cease-fire feels even more pointless. What Bethesda has done with the Civil War is offer two different roller-coaster rides, rather than an open world with significant decisions.

      I trust I'm not the only one to feel like this.

      Sincerely,

      A Bitter Cynic

      Ok this is getting annoying. How many times do I have to tell people. The Stormcloaks don't want to kick non-Nords out of Skyrim. They just want to get control of their country back. They don't want a Cyrodilic Emperor to tell them what to do and who to worship. Especially since they believe the Empire is nothing more than a puppet of the Thalmor.

      Before you point to the sentence "Skyrim is for the Nords!" let me tell you this. This sentence is not evidence that the Nords(and or Stormcloaks) want to kick out non-Nords. This is a nationalistic fraise used by them to emphasize their craving for independence. Further evidence of this is the fact that all Stormcloak territories have non-Nords in them. If they really wanted to kick other races out of Skyrim why haven't they done it yet? Because they don't want to. All they want is to dictate what happens in their province, not be ruled by a foreigner who they don't like.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
       
      Ok this is getting annoying. How many times do I have to tell people. The Stormcloaks don't want to kick non-Nords out of Skyrim. They just want to get control of their country back. They don't want a Cyrodilic Emperor to tell them what to do and who to worship. Especially since they believe the Empire is nothing more than a puppet of the Thalmor.

      Before you point to the sentence "Skyrim is for the Nords!" let me tell you this. This sentence is not evidence that the Nords(and or Stormcloaks) want to kick out non-Nords. This is a nationalistic fraise used by them to emphasize their craving for independence. Further evidence of this is the fact that all Stormcloak territories have non-Nords in them. If they really wanted to kick other races out of Skyrim why haven't they done it yet? Because they don't want to. All they want is to dictate what happens in their province, not be ruled by a foreigner who they don't like.

      Did you not read that I said that the Stormcloaks have the "unfavorable types" among them who would "love to see non-Nords out of Skyrim"? Evidently not!

      I, in NO way, shape or form, implied that ALL Stormcloaks (or Stormcloak supporters) want this kind of thing (hell, Solaf doesn't mind foreigners). It's that the hardliners among the the Stormcloaks seem to support this line of thinking.

      STOP putting words in my mouth.

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    • Its not you, its people in this wiki in general.

      As for the "unfavorable types" in the Stormcloaks. We only see one notable racist Stormcloak, though technically he is an ex-stormcloak. You know that bum in Windhelm who took the sword to the chest. Yeah him. And all he does is harass a dunmer. He never says or implies he wants non-Nords out of Skyrim.

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    • ^Well, there's him, there's Rolff, there's Boluund in Falkreath ("I can't believe we let provincials like you wander Skyrim"), Vulwulf Snow-Shod in Riften (Though I will concede he has an emotional reason to be verbally abusive to Imperial PCs, bordering on irrationality), and Thongvor Silver-Blood in Markarth, to say nothing of the lieutenants in the Stormcloak-aligned holds--or the hundreds or so faceless mooks (free pass, since they're mooks).

      It's dogmatism regardless...

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    • Rolf isn't a Stormcloak, neither is Bolund. Vulwulf and Thongvor are allies of the Stormcloaks. Yet the only thing these people have in common is that they are racist nords. Nothing more, nothing less. Just because they are racist doesn't mean that they want non-Nords out of Skyrim.

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    • well most nords are pretty racists.......

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    • It does nothing to disprove the dogmatism present on both sides--it's just more readily apparent in the Stormcloak supporters.

      Switching topics, if Brunwulf Free-Winter is to be believed, Ulfric is the first to send aid to Nord settlements, but does nothing if a foreigner caravan or such is attacked. And don't say "it's war; he needs to prioritize what he defends", because the Empire did the exact same thing during the Oblivion crisis by pulling the majority, if not all its troops back to Cyrodiil; an action which fragmented the Empire at the time and indirectly allowed the rise of the Third Aldmeri Dominion, leading to the secession of both Black Marsh and Morrowind.

      Granted, it was roughly a century and a half earlier, but if this complaint of Ulfric holds true, you cannot claim he holds the moral high ground.

      Yet another question that actually ties into this thread: If Skyrim were to successfully secede by war, what plans does Ulfric have for its long-term prosperity? After all, Skyrim relied heavily on Imperial imports and many Nords still serve in the Legion.

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    • First offlet me say there is no such thing as a non-Nord settlement in Skyrim. So what Brunwulf is really saying is "Ulfric is the first to send aid to settlements, but does nothing if a foreigner caravan or such is attacked." As for that let me state the obvious. Settlements are way larger ad have more people than a caravan. A caravan has a most a half dozen people, settlements usually range from a dozen to more people(in-game), though lore wise they are probably much larger.

      Also how can you send help to a caravan? If they are attacked in the wilderness then by the time help gets there nothing will be left of the caravan. The most any Jarl can do to keep travelers and caravans safe in the wilderness of their hold is send more guards on patrol. The Stormcloaks can't spare any more guards, as they are in a war. So they have few guards they can send, and most of them are guarding settlements, which is where the larger number of people are.

      What would you do with the few guards you can spare? Send them to patrol the wilderness or send them to keep a settlement or town safe? The answer is obvious.

      One last thing. No jarl sends help to foreigner caravans. I've seen a bunch of burned down caravans all over Skyrim, most were Khajiit caravans. Though some the bodies were burned so you couldn't tell their race. No Jarl wastes resources to make sure a small few can get past the danger that is the Skyrim wilderness. Because really, that isn't their job. Keeping their citizens safe is their job.

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    • I would say Skyrim would collapse in more ways than one. For example they could not use the Septim as the currency, so they would have to make their own currency. Also the Imperials are kind of keeping the peace and perserving culture. Without a decent legal system Skyrim would become crime ridden. Also I will point out that if the capital of a Empire falls then generally the Empire will fall too. So the Emperor had no choice, he had to recall most troops to the capital to take it back. However Ulfric doesn't isn't doing that. It seems like he is putting Nords first and protecting them and leaving non Nords to fend for themselves.

      Also why don't the Stormcloaks use Scaled, Iron or Steel Armor?. I know the Stormcloak Amror is their uniform but I would expect them to have common sense and wear something that protects you more.

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    • ^ yeah but all groups are a lil "racist" in the ES universe to be fair, ever play Morrowind? if your not a Dark Elf the population doesnt much care for you most of the time and if your an argonian they hate you, are the dark elves "evil" for that reason? 


      and telling us not to say "its war he needs to prioritize" is pretty bad reasoning for one SKyrim =/= The Empire, its one nation not all 9, and 2 yes he has to prioritize, lol hes fighting a war that if he loses, him and all his supporters are going to be executed! so hearing "Ulfric, if your not helping us your racist!" is pretty idiotic on their parts, if they dont like it, they can always go back where they came from its literally right next door (Black Marsh and Morrowind) and they are rebuilding. also they have Nord SETTLEMENTS getting attacked, as opposed to a trading CARAVAN, a settlement has lots of people a trading caravan has much less, now what are you going to defend? its the perception of the civilians, because if they were a truely racist bunch they would descriminate or not even let you join the Storm Cloaks if you were an Elf or Beast. if you join them Stone Fist asks "why does a Dark Elf want to fight for Skyrim.....oh don't get me wrong we have nothing against Dark Elves you are we just want to know why you want to fight the Empire/join our rebellion" that sounds pretty level headed and not racist at all. A lot of Negitive press on the SC's seems like Imperial Propaganda to me in the game

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    • They wear the guard uniform because it is the cheapest to make and it is light armor, which helps since the Stormcloaks use guerrilla tactics. Which means that they need to move quickly so they can strike and leave before the Empire knows what hit them.

      As for the currency. Why can't they use Septims? Morrowind and Hammerfell still use septims for all we know and they aren't even part of the Empire anymore. Though that can just be Bethesda laziness one again.

      Keeping the peace and preserving culture? Ha, that is a funny joke. You are funny Alduin. I forgive you for trying to eat the world, because this joke is just hysterical.

      Legal system. In Skyrim its kind of like the US. There are the federal laws that all of Skyrim must obey, and the state(or in this case hold) laws which each hold has. This is why the bounty system in each hold is independent from the others. Just like in the US where a person can be wanted in one state yet no in the others.

      The Imperial City fell, yet the Empire was still standing. Its not the capital falling that crumbles an Empire, it's the fall of its leaders. Had the Emperor and the other high ranking members of the Empire died in the Imperial City then the Empire would have fallen. Same goes for RL. A nation falls when its leaders fall, not its capital. Though most times the leaders are located in the capital so I can see why you would come to that conclusion.

      In you last point I will simply say, look up. There is a post I made that explains why that is wrong.

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    • 72.211.162.201 wrote:

      lly ties into this thread: If Skyrim were to successfully secede by war, what plans does Ulfric have for its long-term prosperity? After all, Skyrim relied heavily on Imperial imports and many Nords still serve in the Legion.

      A lot of Nords and Redguards left the Legion after their falling out during the signing of the treaty tho, and im guessing He(Ulfric) would either continue trade with the imperials, just having the Empire recognizing Skyrim as their own nation or conquer Cyrodil and re-establish the Nordic lead Empire of old, those would be my two guesses.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      72.211.162.201 wrote:

      lly ties into this thread: If Skyrim were to successfully secede by war, what plans does Ulfric have for its long-term prosperity? After all, Skyrim relied heavily on Imperial imports and many Nords still serve in the Legion.

      A lot of Nords and Redguards left the Legion after their falling out during the signing of the treaty tho, and im guessing He(Ulfric) would either continue trade with the imperials, just having the Empire recognizing Skyrim as their own nation or conquer Cyrodil and re-establish the Nordic lead Empire of old, those would be my two guesses.

      No need. The Stormcloaks already trade with Morrowind/Hammerfell and the Eastern Empire Company. If the Empire stops trading with them after the Stormcloaks win they won't suffer much as they have more trading partners.

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    • Spidermanfromthe60s wrote:
      well most nords are pretty racists.......

      Oh?

      Proof please...

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:
      I would say Skyrim would collapse in more ways than one. For example they could not use the Septim as the currency, so they would have to make their own currency. Also the Imperials are kind of keeping the peace and perserving culture. Without a decent legal system Skyrim would become crime ridden. Also I will point out that if the capital of a Empire falls then generally the Empire will fall too. So the Emperor had no choice, he had to recall most troops to the capital to take it back. However Ulfric doesn't isn't doing that. It seems like he is putting Nords first and protecting them and leaving non Nords to fend for themselves.

      Also why don't the Stormcloaks use Scaled, Iron or Steel Armor?. I know the Stormcloak Amror is their uniform but I would expect them to have common sense and wear something that protects you more.

      The Imperals are aiding the Thalmor in religious persecution and ethnic cleansing, how is that keeping the peace and preserving culture?

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      Spidermanfromthe60s wrote:
      well most nords are pretty racists.......

      Oh?

      Proof please...

      Many nords use racist slurs. Like lizard, boot, cat, gray skin, etc. Though they are in the minority. Most nords aren't racist, only nationalistic and/or xenophobic.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      Alduin1996 wrote:
      I would say Skyrim would collapse in more ways than one. For example they could not use the Septim as the currency, so they would have to make their own currency. Also the Imperials are kind of keeping the peace and perserving culture. Without a decent legal system Skyrim would become crime ridden. Also I will point out that if the capital of a Empire falls then generally the Empire will fall too. So the Emperor had no choice, he had to recall most troops to the capital to take it back. However Ulfric doesn't isn't doing that. It seems like he is putting Nords first and protecting them and leaving non Nords to fend for themselves.

      Also why don't the Stormcloaks use Scaled, Iron or Steel Armor?. I know the Stormcloak Amror is their uniform but I would expect them to have common sense and wear something that protects you more.

      The Imperals are aiding the Thalmor in religious persecution and ethnic cleansing, how is that keeping the peace and preserving culture?

      Which is why I told him that his comment was such a hysterical joke. The Empire isn't preserving culture and they are doing a bad job at keeping the peace.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Many nords use racist slurs. Like lizard, boot, cat, gray skin, etc. Though they are in the minority. Most nords aren't racist, only nationalistic and/or xenophobic.

      Nooo...

      Kajhiits and Argonians, Mer are different species from Nords so it follows those slurs cannot in anyway be construed as racist.

      Hateful and unneccessary as those slurs are, words don't change their meaning just because in fantasy the word race is used were species should be.

      One would assume there are Nords who are racist against their fellow human races but I have necer seen it in game.

      Xenophobia seems almost neccessary in most fantasy works, see the Falmer for instance.

      Being xenophobic against them is just a survival tactic.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Which is why I told him that his comment was such a hysterical joke. The Empire isn't preserving culture and they are doing a bad job at keeping the peace.

      Have to agree with you there.

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    • Siding with the Stormcloaks seems to be based on one basic misconception: that the Imperials are the allies of the Thalmor. They're NOT. They're absolute enemies, pretending to be non-hostile so they can regain their strength. They continue to worship Talso, to an extent. Seriously, nobody but the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks even pay attention to that law.

      Honestly though, I wish we had the option to just waltz into Windhelm -- they let us, after all -- and just quickly kill Ulfric, Galmar, and a couple other of his lieutenants, and then use high Speech skill to convince the rest of the Stormcloaks that we had earned the right to lead them -- right of conquest, after all, the same thing Ulfric used on Torryg -- and end the war with just a few deaths.

      I also have a theory about the Stormcloaks. Ulfric himself is an interesting character. He's not the hotheaded traditionalist he sometimes seems to be, but neither is he a scheming, power-hungry narcissist. He's somewhere in between. He definitely believes in Nordic tradition, to a huge extent, but he's more than capable of planning, and the hotheaded thing is definitely a sort of persona that he cultivates. But if you pay close attention, you'll notice that sometimes he expresses doubt about the necessity of the war and his actions. What happens? Galmar reassures him of his greatness.

      We know that the Thalmor are manipulating him, or at least are trying to. He is not, however, a Thalmor agent. But can the same be said for his underlings? My guess is that one of the higher-ups among the Stormcloaks, probably Galmar, is in fact a Thalmor plant. He egged Ulfric on to start the war, and kept it going whenever he started to doubt himself. He created a cult of personality around Ulfric, with all this "he is the truest of us all!" business, the thing that initially drove me to side against the Stormcloaks in my first playthrough.

      Oh and about racism. In other threads, I've seen people compare the Nords to the Thalmor in terms of prejudice. This is way incorrect. For the context of this discussion, let's define racism as the belief in the inherent, objective inferiority of another race. The Nords, save perhaps Rolff and company, are not racists by this definition, while the Thalmor obviously are. The Nords are proud nationalists, and sometimes xenophobes. They don't necessarily see Dunmer, or other races, as inferior. They just want them off their lawn. Now, you can argue the virtue of this nationalism, but it's a very different thing from wanting to destroy the world in order to cleanse the mer of mankind and make themselves gods. Actually, the Dunmer (some of them) are actually rather more racist than the Nords; just read "Dunmer of Skyrim". Or talk to Neloth about the race, even.

      Basically, the Stormcloaks aren't horrible, they're just not thinking this through. So don't vilify them.

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    • Kestrellius wrote:
      Siding with the Stormcloaks seems to be based on one basic misconception: that the Imperials are the allies of the Thalmor. They're NOT. They're absolute enemies, pretending to be non-hostile so they can regain their strength. They continue to worship Talso, to an extent. Seriously, nobody but the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks even pay attention to that law.

      If you follow Hadvar and talk with Alvor, he mentions that after Ulfric brought out the secret worshipping of Talos out in to the open Imperials (not Thalmor) started cracking down on the worship.

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    • In the beggining, should I go with Ralof or Hadvar? And I don't care about the loot

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    • Froz3nite wrote:
      In the beggining, should I go with Ralof or Hadvar? And I don't care about the loot

      if you don't care about the loot then it doesn't matter who you side with in the escape, I go with Ralof, even when I side with the Imperials, because his door is closer.

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    • Froz3nite wrote:
      In the beggining, should I go with Ralof or Hadvar? And I don't care about the loot

      Well, it doesn't matter too much, (You can join either side later regardless of your choice.)

      But if I had to make a choice, I'd go with Ralof, you get to kill the Imperial torturer that way. :) Besides, you get a full suit of Imperial heavy armor if you go with Ralof. 

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      Kestrellius wrote:
      Siding with the Stormcloaks seems to be based on one basic misconception: that the Imperials are the allies of the Thalmor. They're NOT. They're absolute enemies, pretending to be non-hostile so they can regain their strength. They continue to worship Talso, to an extent. Seriously, nobody but the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks even pay attention to that law.
      If you follow Hadvar and talk with Alvor, he mentions that after Ulfric brought out the secret worshipping of Talos out in to the open Imperials (not Thalmor) started cracking down on the worship.

      Wrong, it was Jarl Igmund of Markarth in The Reach who granted Ulfric and his Militia free worship of Talos, Ulfric did not ask for it, he did not demand it, he did the job the Empire rrefused and was granted religious freedom. it was the empire who tipped off the Thalmor that there was open worship of talos, they were the ones who allowed it, and they were the ones who arrested Ulfric for freeing the reach.

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    • Well I sort of like Hadvar better /:

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    • Imperial all the way. I do so get tired of listening to racist Stormcloaks. Ulfric uses folks religious frenzy and outward prejudices to inflame them into making war.


      But the first time I played and every time after---I don't get involved in the Civil War stuff until much much later. Both sides do horrible things and make a lot of mistakes--because this war has no Black and White. So for me, it came down to--What's best for Skyrim?


      And what's best is for Skyrim to stay with the Empire---because as soon as they became independent--I'm willing to bet a thousand bucks that an attack from the elves would happen. 

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Many nords use racist slurs. Like lizard, boot, cat, gray skin, etc. Though they are in the minority. Most nords aren't racist, only nationalistic and/or xenophobic.

      Nooo...

      Kajhiits and Argonians, Mer are different species from Nords so it follows those slurs cannot in anyway be construed as racist.

      Hateful and unneccessary as those slurs are, words don't change their meaning just because in fantasy the word race is used were species should be.

      So you are one of "those" people. I refuse to call it specism rather than racism.

      Also Mer and Men are the same species. As the two can have fertile offsprings. Meaning that Men and Mer are the same species, they are just sub-species of the same species. And Khajiit can have fertile offsprings with Mer, so that means they are the same species. So technically only the Argonians are a different species.

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    • Kestrellius wrote: Siding with the Stormcloaks seems to be based on one basic misconception: that the Imperials are the allies of the Thalmor. They're NOT. They're absolute enemies, pretending to be non-hostile so they can regain their strength. They continue to worship Talso, to an extent. Seriously, nobody but the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks even pay attention to that law.

      Really? What about the Temple in Solitude, they removed the shrine of Talos. No one openly worships Talos in Imperial Territories. Many Nords secretly worship Talos, but it is against Imperial law to worship him. So if you are found out they can and will arrest you. But before that happens the Thalmor will kidnap you and torture you because they can.

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    • Kestrellius wrote: I also have a theory about the Stormcloaks. Ulfric himself is an interesting character. He's not the hotheaded traditionalist he sometimes seems to be, but neither is he a scheming, power-hungry narcissist. He's somewhere in between. He definitely believes in Nordic tradition, to a huge extent, but he's more than capable of planning, and the hotheaded thing is definitely a sort of persona that he cultivates. But if you pay close attention, you'll notice that sometimes he expresses doubt about the necessity of the war and his actions. What happens? Galmar reassures him of his greatness.

      We know that the Thalmor are manipulating him, or at least are trying to. He is not, however, a Thalmor agent. But can the same be said for his underlings? My guess is that one of the higher-ups among the Stormcloaks, probably Galmar, is in fact a Thalmor plant. He egged Ulfric on to start the war, and kept it going whenever he started to doubt himself. He created a cult of personality around Ulfric, with all this "he is the truest of us all!" business, the thing that initially drove me to side against the Stormcloaks in my first playthrough.

      That is an interesting theory. Though I don't think it is Galmar. He hates elves just as much as his brother does. So I doubt he would be working with the Thalmor.

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    • Kestrellius wrote: Oh and about racism. In other threads, I've seen people compare the Nords to the Thalmor in terms of prejudice. This is way incorrect. For the context of this discussion, let's define racism as the belief in the inherent, objective inferiority of another race. The Nords, save perhaps Rolff and company, are not racists by this definition, while the Thalmor obviously are. The Nords are proud nationalists, and sometimes xenophobes. They don't necessarily see Dunmer, or other races, as inferior. They just want them off their lawn. Now, you can argue the virtue of this nationalism, but it's a very different thing from wanting to destroy the world in order to cleanse the mer of mankind and make themselves gods. Actually, the Dunmer (some of them) are actually rather more racist than the Nords; just read "Dunmer of Skyrim". Or talk to Neloth about the race, even.

      Basically, the Stormcloaks aren't horrible, they're just not thinking this through. So don't vilify them.

      I agree with this 100%.

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    • CatapractofOrder wrote:

      Froz3nite wrote:
      In the beggining, should I go with Ralof or Hadvar? And I don't care about the loot

      Well, it doesn't matter too much, (You can join either side later regardless of your choice.)

      But if I had to make a choice, I'd go with Ralof, you get to kill the Imperial torturer that way. :) Besides, you get a full suit of Imperial heavy armor if you go with Ralof. 

      Which is a good enough reason. Revenge for trying to murder my character.

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    • Sailtheplains wrote: Imperial all the way. I do so get tired of listening to racist Stormcloaks. Ulfric uses folks religious frenzy and outward prejudices to inflame them into making war.

      But the first time I played and every time after---I don't get involved in the Civil War stuff until much much later. Both sides do horrible things and make a lot of mistakes--because this war has no Black and White. So for me, it came down to--What's best for Skyrim?

      And what's best is for Skyrim to stay with the Empire---because as soon as they became independent--I'm willing to bet a thousand bucks that an attack from the elves would happen. 

      From where? The Empire would never let the Dominion march armies through Cyrodiil. So the only way to get there is through the sea. Going through the east would be dumb as they might anger the Argonians, who can tear their ships with ease. And the Dunmer also don't like them. Going through the west would make them pass by Hammerfell and High Rock, with also don't like them. Not many ways to get there without loosing some ships.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      So you are one of "those" people. I refuse to call it specism rather than racism.

      Also Mer and Men are the same species. As the two can have fertile offsprings. Meaning that Men and Mer are the same species, they are just sub-species of the same species. And Khajiit can have fertile offsprings with Mer, so that means they are the same species. So technically only the Argonians are a different species.

      Well that depends.

      Just say bigotry or I don't know hatred?

      Or I'll even accept fantasy racism if there is a tm added.

      Xenophobia works to, in a pinch.


      No, they are clearly not the same species in any meaningful way.

      Look at dogs and wolves, dogs and dingos etc.


      Magic is the reason they all are interfertile and nobody knows if Argonians can mate and produce offspring with the other fantasy Races™ ie species.

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    • Pink Slim wrote:

      Wrong, it was Jarl Igmund of Markarth in The Reach who granted Ulfric and his Militia free worship of Talos, Ulfric did not ask for it, he did not demand it, he did the job the Empire rrefused and was granted religious freedom. it was the empire who tipped off the Thalmor that there was open worship of talos, they were the ones who allowed it, and they were the ones who arrested Ulfric for freeing the reach.

      Hey now, I didn't say I agree with it so I am not the one wrong there.

      I know that's not how it went, was only retelling what Alvor said to make the point that it isn't just the Justicars that snatch alledged Talos worshippers off in the night and torture and kill them.

      The Imperials do it too.

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    • Pink Slim wrote:
      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      Kestrellius wrote:
      Siding with the Stormcloaks seems to be based on one basic misconception: that the Imperials are the allies of the Thalmor. They're NOT. They're absolute enemies, pretending to be non-hostile so they can regain their strength. They continue to worship Talso, to an extent. Seriously, nobody but the Thalmor and the Stormcloaks even pay attention to that law.
      If you follow Hadvar and talk with Alvor, he mentions that after Ulfric brought out the secret worshipping of Talos out in to the open Imperials (not Thalmor) started cracking down on the worship.
      Wrong, it was Jarl Igmund of Markarth in The Reach who granted Ulfric and his Militia free worship of Talos, Ulfric did not ask for it, he did not demand it, he did the job the Empire rrefused and was granted religious freedom. it was the empire who tipped off the Thalmor that there was open worship of talos, they were the ones who allowed it, and they were the ones who arrested Ulfric for freeing the reach.

      Now that I think about it I do believe it was the liberation of Markarth that Alvor was saying made the Imperials start to crack down on Talos worship...

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    • I cannot agree with the war, regardless of how justified Ulfric thinks he is. On one hand, Ulfric might be a well-intentioned freedom fighter, or he might be "selfish and power hungry" (Dengeir's words, not mine). On the other hand, you've got the Empire who were at best pragmatic about signing the WGC to avoid more death, or at worst Titus Mede was a "coward" (Heimskr's word, not mine).

      I'd like to think that I could side with the Empire, while still chewing them out for the war. Then post-bellum, behind closed doors arrange a diplomatic withdrawal (with strings attached, namely to maintain trade with the Empire and a military alliance). Technically, this means that Skyrim would no longer be under jurisdiction of the Concordat, so the Thalmor would have to draw up a second agreement with the Nords (which they obviously won't go for).

      I know that sounds odd, but think of it: the Empire needed to uphold the treaty when Hammerfel kept fighting by releasing it from the Empire. There is no term in the WGC (that I'm aware of) saying that the Empire cannot nullify Skyrim's (or High Rock's, for that matter) status as a province.

      In short, the war was poorly timed, and I feel was motivated by hatred of the Empire alone--Ulfric strikes me as too proud to allow Skyrim to trade with any province post-bellum (much less Cyrodiil itself), which means that Skyrim stands alone while the Dominion consists of the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr--Skyrim is darn near guaranteed to be curb-stomped.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      So you are one of "those" people. I refuse to call it specism rather than racism.

      Also Mer and Men are the same species. As the two can have fertile offsprings. Meaning that Men and Mer are the same species, they are just sub-species of the same species. And Khajiit can have fertile offsprings with Mer, so that means they are the same species. So technically only the Argonians are a different species.

      Well that depends.

      Just say bigotry or I don't know hatred?

      Or I'll even accept fantasy racism if there is a tm added.

      Xenophobia works to, in a pinch.

      No, they are clearly not the same species in any meaningful way.

      Look at dogs and wolves, dogs and dingos etc.

      Magic is the reason they all are interfertile and nobody knows if Argonians can mate and produce offspring with the other fantasy Races™ ie species.

      This is precisely why I don't like "your kind" of people. You needlessly make things more complicated. I will not call it fantasy racism, neither will I call them fantasy races. If you have a problem with that then deal with it.

      As for Wolfs/Dogs/Dingoes. The wolf, dingo, dog, coyote, and golden jackal diverged relatively recently, around three to four million years ago, and all have 78 chromosomes arranged in 39 pairs. This allows them to hybridize freely (barring size or behavioral constraints) and produce fertile offspring.

      So at one point Men, Mer and Khajiit were all one species. If they have become different species already, we don't necessarily know, it could be that they are different species in the same situation of the wolfs/dogs/dingoes. Upon further analysis I have come to believe that Men and Mer are sub-species, with Khajiit being a different species that separated from the Mer sub-species. This would explain how Khajiit can breed with Mer but not with Men.

      As for Argonians, they can't interbreed with other Tamrielic races because they lay eggs. Making it impossible for them to interbreed with Men/Mer/Khajiit.

      As for magic being a part of it, that is never stated. It is purely biology.

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    • 72.211.162.201 wrote: In short, the war was poorly timed, and I feel was motivated by hatred of the Empire alone--Ulfric strikes me as too proud to allow Skyrim to trade with any province post-bellum (much less Cyrodiil itself), which means that Skyrim stands alone while the Dominion consists of the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, and Elsweyr--Skyrim is darn near guaranteed to be curb-stomped.

      That is where you are wrong sir. The Stormcloaks are already trading with Morrowind, Hammerfell and the Eastern Empire Company. They also don't have any problems with High Rock, and in fact would like to ally with the Bretons, so it is only rational that they'd trade with them too.

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    • ^Oh, I give up trying to reason with anyone on this thread. I swear it's like no one here sees any fault in Ulfric and instead sees every fault in the Empire....

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    • 72.211.162.201 wrote: ^Oh, I give up trying to reason with anyone on this thread. I swear it's like no one here sees any fault in Ulfric and instead sees every fault in the Empire....

      And again another person shows up, expresses their opinion and as soon as someone disagrees with them they get pissed and leave. This is a debate thread, your opinions are obviously going to get disagreed with.

      Also did you notice I never mentioned Ulfric in my above post. That is because I wasn't talking about him, I was talking about the Stormcloaks. And I never mentioned the Empire above, so how can I have seen "every" fault in them if I never mentioned them?

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      This is precisely why I don't like "your kind" of people. You needlessly make things more complicated. I will not call it fantasy racism, neither will I call them fantasy races. If you have a problem with that then deal with it.

      As for Wolfs/Dogs/Dingoes. The wolf, dingo, dog, coyote, and golden jackal diverged relatively recently, around three to four million years ago, and all have 78 chromosomes arranged in 39 pairs. This allows them to hybridize freely (barring size or behavioral constraints) and produce fertile offspring.

      So at one point Men, Mer and Khajiit were all one species. If they have become different species already, we don't necessarily know, it could be that they are different species in the same situation of the wolfs/dogs/dingoes. Upon further analysis I have come to believe that Men and Mer are sub-species, with Khajiit being a different species that separated from the Mer sub-species. This would explain how Khajiit can breed with Mer but not with Men.

      As for Argonians, they can't interbreed with other Tamrielic races because they lay eggs. Making it impossible for them to interbreed with Men/Mer/Khajiit.

      As for magic being a part of it, that is never stated. It is purely biology.

      Oh, I get it.


      It's not about making things complicated, nor does it make things complicated.

      Also everyone was at one point Ehlnofey ie your one species, Men and Mer (Khajiits?) come from them.

      Not Argonians though, and eggs or not no one has tried to have sex with an Argonian to produce a child so you cannot categorically rule it out.


      Oh, purely biology you say?

      Then do explain how the child of interspecies procreation is always the Race of the mother?

      Do explain the biology of Racial traits and why for example a child with a Redguard mother and Nord father doesn't get any immunity to frost (50 percent..) etc?

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    • What do you mean Men can't reproduce with Khajiits?

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      As for Wolfs/Dogs/Dingoes. The wolf, dingo, dog, coyote, and golden jackal diverged relatively recently, around three to four million years ago, and all have 78 chromosomes arranged in 39 pairs. This allows them to hybridize freely (barring size or behavioral constraints) and produce fertile offspring.

      Still different species.

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    • No, I simply am done arguing and stated a general statement about the thread--though you seem keen on talking about the Stormcloaks without talking about Ulfric. Way I see it, you cannot go referring to the Stormcloaks without referring to Ulfric himself as well (the central pillar of the faction)--that's like referring to the Tribunal Temple without referring to the Tribunal itself.

      I don't know, you strike me as trying to pass youself off as having an exhaustive knowledge of the Stormcloaks and Ulfric himself--and I say that's impossible. You simply cannot know if--assuming he becomes High King--he'll lose track of his original goal and instead become the power-hungry tyrant he claims the Emperor is.

      Further, I've noticed you've picked one specific part of my arguments rather than deal with the whole post (unless it's implied that you are, in which case I can't read between those lines)--which, by the way, I consider the classic technique of the average American politician.

      It's obvious to me that you're pro-Stormcloak, so my question is this: do you see no fault in the Stormcloaks whatsoever?

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    • Guys, would you like me to start another Forum about if Man/Mer/Khajiit/Argonians are the same species? 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Guys, would you like me to start another Forum about if Man/Mer/Khajiit/Argonians are the same species? 

      Yes.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      This is precisely why I don't like "your kind" of people. You needlessly make things more complicated. I will not call it fantasy racism, neither will I call them fantasy races. If you have a problem with that then deal with it.

      As for Wolfs/Dogs/Dingoes. The wolf, dingo, dog, coyote, and golden jackal diverged relatively recently, around three to four million years ago, and all have 78 chromosomes arranged in 39 pairs. This allows them to hybridize freely (barring size or behavioral constraints) and produce fertile offspring.

      So at one point Men, Mer and Khajiit were all one species. If they have become different species already, we don't necessarily know, it could be that they are different species in the same situation of the wolfs/dogs/dingoes. Upon further analysis I have come to believe that Men and Mer are sub-species, with Khajiit being a different species that separated from the Mer sub-species. This would explain how Khajiit can breed with Mer but not with Men.

      As for Argonians, they can't interbreed with other Tamrielic races because they lay eggs. Making it impossible for them to interbreed with Men/Mer/Khajiit.

      As for magic being a part of it, that is never stated. It is purely biology.

      Also everyone was at one point Ehlnofey ie your one species, Men and Mer (Khajiits?) come from them.

      Not Argonians though, and eggs or not no one has tried to have sex with an Argonian to produce a child so you cannot categorically rule it out.

      Oh, purely biology you say?

      Then do explain how the child of interspecies procreation is always the Race of the mother?

      Do explain the biology of Racial traits and why for example a child with a Redguard mother and Nord father doesn't get any immunity to frost (50 percent..) etc?

      The reason the son of a nord and a redguard woman doesn't get 50 immunity is for gameplay reasons. Like many things in-game are made to be balanced, like the fact Khajiit can only see in the dark for 60 seconds, though that doesn't make any sense. If the child would've gotten the racial traits of both the parents then hybrids would become Op. So as a rule they made it usually gain the abilities of the mother.

      Now as for the child being the race of the mother, that isn't true. In-game it is impossible to make a character/NPC a hybrid, so they have to be one race, which is usually the race of the mother. But in-lore they are half one race half another. Look at some of the Septim Emperors, for example Pelagius the Mad. He is Half Imperial, Half Altmer. Though in-game he is considered an Imperial, though his mother was the Altmer and his father the Imperial.

      As for the Argonians. How do you know no one tried to have sex with an Argonian before? In Skyrim you can marry an Argonian, meaning that other races marrying argonians is normal. Though there has never been a reference to an Argonian half breed. Because a mammal can't interbreed with a reptile, that is biologically impossible. Argonians lay eggs so if they can interbreed with another race it has to be with one that also lays eggs.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote: What do you mean Men can't reproduce with Khajiits?

      They can't. Only Mer can reproduce with Khajiits.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      As for Wolfs/Dogs/Dingoes. The wolf, dingo, dog, coyote, and golden jackal diverged relatively recently, around three to four million years ago, and all have 78 chromosomes arranged in 39 pairs. This allows them to hybridize freely (barring size or behavioral constraints) and produce fertile offspring.

      Still different species.

      Yes but the reason that they can still create fertile offsprings is because they've only recently become different species. This is rare and doesn't usually happen. When a sub-species crosses the species barrier and becomes a new species they usually can't go back.

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    • Guys, I'm going to make a Forum on this, please get back on topic. 

      EDIT: 

      Alright everyone, please take the conversation here

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    • 72.211.162.201 wrote: 1)No, I simply am done arguing and stated a general statement about the thread--though you seem keen on talking about the Stormcloaks without talking about Ulfric. Way I see it, you cannot go referring to the Stormcloaks without referring to Ulfric himself as well (the central pillar of the faction)--that's like referring to the Tribunal Temple without referring to the Tribunal itself.

      2)I don't know, you strike me as trying to pass youself off as having an exhaustive knowledge of the Stormcloaks and Ulfric himself--and I say that's impossible. You simply cannot know if--assuming he becomes High King--he'll lose track of his original goal and instead become the power-hungry tyrant he claims the Emperor is.

      3)Further, I've noticed you've picked one specific part of my arguments rather than deal with the whole post (unless it's implied that you are, in which case I can't read between those lines)--which, by the way, I consider the classic technique of the average American politician.

      4)It's obvious to me that you're pro-Stormcloak, so my question is this: do you see no fault in the Stormcloaks whatsoever?

      1)It is quite possible to talk about the Stormcloak without talking about Ulfric, just like its possible to talk about Ulfric without talking about the Stormcloaks. Its like saying one can't talk about the Empire without talking about the Emperor, which you can. As for the Tribunal Temple, which Tribunal are you talking about? The Daedric one or the Mortal one?

      2)That is like saying. "How don't you know that after the Legion wins the Civil War Tullius won't lose track of his original goals and kill Elisif and claim Skyrim for himself?" It is an stupid assumption with no basis.

      3)I picked one specific part of your argument because I had no problem with the rest. They were solid opinions and arguments. The only one that was false was your last argument. Which I pointed out. You make it seem like I either have to completely disagree with you or completely agree with you. That isn't how debating is like.

      4)Yes I do. What do you think I'm a fanboy that ignores all that my faction does wrong? No that isn't what I do. Lets start with the obvious. I don't like the racism of some of their members. I don't like fact that they believe the Empire is nothing but a puppet, when the Empire also hates the Thalmor and also want to get rid of them. The fact it appears that they only let Nords into their ranks(though this could just be Bethesda laziness). The rest is more specific to Ulfric, the Segregation of the Argonians to the docks. Him killing Tullius even though he had surrendered. I don't like how eager Galmar was to besiege Whiterun. These are some of the things I see wrong with the Stormcloaks and its members.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      72.211.162.201 wrote: 1)No, I simply am done arguing and stated a general statement about the thread--though you seem keen on talking about the Stormcloaks without talking about Ulfric. Way I see it, you cannot go referring to the Stormcloaks without referring to Ulfric himself as well (the central pillar of the faction)--that's like referring to the Tribunal Temple without referring to the Tribunal itself.

      2)I don't know, you strike me as trying to pass youself off as having an exhaustive knowledge of the Stormcloaks and Ulfric himself--and I say that's impossible. You simply cannot know if--assuming he becomes High King--he'll lose track of his original goal and instead become the power-hungry tyrant he claims the Emperor is.

      3)Further, I've noticed you've picked one specific part of my arguments rather than deal with the whole post (unless it's implied that you are, in which case I can't read between those lines)--which, by the way, I consider the classic technique of the average American politician.

      4)It's obvious to me that you're pro-Stormcloak, so my question is this: do you see no fault in the Stormcloaks whatsoever?

      1)It is quite possible to talk about the Stormcloak without talking about Ulfric, just like its possible to talk about Ulfric without talking about the Stormcloaks. Its like saying one can't talk about the Empire without talking about the Emperor, which you can. As for the Tribunal Temple, which Tribunal are you talking about? The Daedric one or the Mortal one?

      2)That is like saying. "How don't you know that after the Legion wins the Civil War Tullius won't lose track of his original goals and kill Elisif and claim Skyrim for himself?" It is an stupid assumption with no basis.

      3)I picked one specific part of your argument because I had no problem with the rest. They were solid opinions and arguments. The only one that was false was your last argument. Which I pointed out. You make it seem like I either have to completely disagree with you or completely agree with you. That isn't how debating is like.

      4)Yes I do. What do you think I'm a fanboy that ignores all that my faction does wrong? No that isn't what I do. Lets start with the obvious. I don't like the racism of some of their members. I don't like fact that they believe the Empire is nothing but a puppet, when the Empire also hates the Thalmor and also want to get rid of them. The fact it appears that they only let Nords into their ranks(though this could just be Bethesda laziness). The rest is more specific to Ulfric, the Segregation of the Argonians to the docks. Him killing Tullius even though he had surrendered. I don't like how eager Galmar was to besiege Whiterun. These are some of the things I see wrong with the Stormcloaks and its members.

      To answer some of those Harold, technically Tullius never surrendered he fought anyway, though this could be a gameplay thing. Also, the Argonians are not really segrogated to the docks, as much as moved there due to being homeless. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote: To answer some of those Harold, technically Tullius never surrendered he fought anyway, though this could be a gameplay thing. Also, the Argonians are not really segrogated to the docks, as much as moved there due to being homeless. 

      Ulfric did make a decree that they can't live inside the city, that is segregation no mater with way you spin it. As for Tullius, he surrendered and then Ulfric refused his surrender.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote: To answer some of those Harold, technically Tullius never surrendered he fought anyway, though this could be a gameplay thing. Also, the Argonians are not really segrogated to the docks, as much as moved there due to being homeless. 

      Ulfric did make a decree that they can't live inside the city, that is segregation no mater with way you spin it. As for Tullius, he surrendered and then Ulfric refused his surrender.

      Scouts never states though that Ulfric made the decree to remove them from society, he gave them homes that happened to be on the docks (as that's the location where they work), they can still enter the city and whatnot though.

      I'll have to re-watch that, I can't fully remember his dialogue. 

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    • Scouts states that Ulfric made a decree that forbid the Argonians from living in the city. That is segregation. I do know they can enter the city but they can't live there. So for being homeless or not prior to living in the Assemblage is still up for debate. Though it doesn't change the fact that they can't move out of the assemblage and into the city(Though technically if you marry one of the argonians they can move into Hjerim, but that is probably gameplay over lore.)

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    • Okay yeah looks like I was wrong about Galmar, since he apparently can show up in Sovngarde. Seems like his true colors would be pretty obvious there if he was a spy.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Sailtheplains wrote: Imperial all the way. I do so get tired of listening to racist Stormcloaks. Ulfric uses folks religious frenzy and outward prejudices to inflame them into making war.

      But the first time I played and every time after---I don't get involved in the Civil War stuff until much much later. Both sides do horrible things and make a lot of mistakes--because this war has no Black and White. So for me, it came down to--What's best for Skyrim?

      And what's best is for Skyrim to stay with the Empire---because as soon as they became independent--I'm willing to bet a thousand bucks that an attack from the elves would happen. 

      From where? The Empire would never let the Dominion march armies through Cyrodiil. So the only way to get there is through the sea. Going through the east would be dumb as they might anger the Argonians, who can tear their ships with ease. And the Dunmer also don't like them. Going through the west would make them pass by Hammerfell and High Rock, with also don't like them. Not many ways to get there without loosing some ships.

      The Empire lets the Dominion kill Talos worshippers, the Empire lets the Thalmor stroll around Markarth like they own the place, Tullius even met with Elenwen in an Imperial controlled town. So why would the Empire not let Dominion armies through Cyrodiil? They let them through before. How else would all the patrolling Thalmor soildier, embassy guards and Northwatch Keep guards get there? Plus a handful of Dominion soldiers got to Solstheim via the sea.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Sailtheplains wrote: Imperial all the way. I do so get tired of listening to racist Stormcloaks. Ulfric uses folks religious frenzy and outward prejudices to inflame them into making war.

      But the first time I played and every time after---I don't get involved in the Civil War stuff until much much later. Both sides do horrible things and make a lot of mistakes--because this war has no Black and White. So for me, it came down to--What's best for Skyrim?

      And what's best is for Skyrim to stay with the Empire---because as soon as they became independent--I'm willing to bet a thousand bucks that an attack from the elves would happen. 

      From where? The Empire would never let the Dominion march armies through Cyrodiil. So the only way to get there is through the sea. Going through the east would be dumb as they might anger the Argonians, who can tear their ships with ease. And the Dunmer also don't like them. Going through the west would make them pass by Hammerfell and High Rock, with also don't like them. Not many ways to get there without loosing some ships.

      The Empire lets the Dominion kill Talos worshippers, the Empire lets the Thalmor stroll around Markarth like they own the place, Tullius even met with Elenwen in an Imperial controlled town. So why would the Empire not let Dominion armies through Cyrodiil? They let them through before. How else would all the patrolling Thalmor soildier, embassy guards and Northwatch Keep guards get there? Plus a handful of Dominion soldiers got to Solstheim via the sea.

      That is different. Those are Thalmor, not Dominion Soldiers. And those were small numbers. There is no way the Empire would let the Dominion march a few thousand soldiers through Cyrodiil. They will obviously see it as a sign of attack, why do you think they are sending so many soldiers to southern Cyrodiil.

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    • Stormcloak Supporters:

      1. Kids who have never played an Elder Scrolls game besides Skyrim and have no knowledge of the Empire but they think wearing blue and being rebels makes you the good guy.

      2. Those who thought it through carefully, and became a Stormcloak.

      Imperial Loyalists:

      1.Veterans of old games that cannot see Bethesda literally showing how bad the Empire is now, and who assume that because one Nord is (for lack of a better term) "Racist" that means all of the Stormcloaks must be, too.

      2. Those who thought it through carefully, and became an Imperial.

      See, are we all so different? We both have annoying blind people, but we also have Hadvar and Ralof, two like minded friends who were seperated because of one disagreement.

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    • That is true. But you forgot one thing.

      Dominion Supporters:

      1.Elf lovers that just like the faction because elves lead it.

      2.Those same elf lovers that refuse to see that the Dominion is an antagonistic faction that Bethesda is building to be the next big antagonist in a future TES game.

      Because if there is one thing that both Stormcloaks and the Imperials can agree with is that the Thalmor are evil pricks and the Dominion must be destroyed.

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    • This is true. They're the antagonists, and I only like them in ESO. (I'm still Daggerfall Covenant.) Honestly, I love the irony of the war going on helping the thalmor, and that's exactly what we're doing. Perhaps Bethesda's secretly run by Elenwen?

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    • Kadawon01 wrote:
      Stormcloak Supporters:

      1. Kids who have never played an Elder Scrolls game besides Skyrim and have no knowledge of the Empire but they think wearing blue and being rebels makes you the good guy.

      2. Those who thought it through carefully, and became a Stormcloak.

      Imperial Loyalists:

      1.Veterans of old games that cannot see Bethesda literally showing how bad the Empire is now, and who assume that because one Nord is (for lack of a better term) "Racist" that means all of the Stormcloaks must be, too.

      2. Those who thought it through carefully, and became an Imperial.

      See, are we all so different? We both have annoying blind people, but we also have Hadvar and Ralof, two like minded friends who were seperated because of one disagreement.

      This might be the smartest interpretation I've ever seen on the Civil War. :) 

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    • Thanks, Zip.

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    • Kadawon01 wrote: This is true. They're the antagonists, and I only like them in ESO. (I'm still Daggerfall Covenant.) Honestly, I love the irony of the war going on helping the thalmor, and that's exactly what we're doing. Perhaps Bethesda's secretly run by Elenwen?

      Maybe you are onto something....I actually think that might be correct, would explain a lot. Wait...who are you? what are you doing? What? Noooooooo..............................My dear friends I withdraw my previous statement, Elenwen isn't the head of Bethesda nor has she ever been. The Thalmor are not the antagonists and they are in fact the saviors of Tamriel. Too long has the infantile races of men ruled Tamriel, it is time the Altmer take control. All hail mistress Elenwen!

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    • All hail mistress Elenwen!

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    • Speaking of Thalmor and Elenwen, (and maybe I should find a different topic for this post) did anybody here ever try wearing the Thalmor Hooded Robes during Diplomatic Immunity--as any race other than the beast races?

      Let me tell ya'll: the results are awesome, especially if you're High Elf.

      Oh, and I was referring to the Third Era Tribunal (Vivec, Sotha Sill, and Almalexia).

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    • No, my character was a nord. They'd see through the disguise almost immediately.

      Ok, because now the Tribunal Temple is back to worshiping the Daedric Tribunal(Azura, Boethiah and Mephala.)

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    • ^If you're a beast race, you're exposed regardless. Otherwise, you're fine at a distance--if you're High Elf in the Hooded Thalmor Robes, you can actually give orders. It never occured to me to try this since release...

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    • 72.211.162.201 wrote:
      ^If you're a beast race, you're exposed regardless.

      Or an Orc.

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    • I've heard people say Nords wouldn't be able to use the Septim Currency, and this isn't necessarily true. The US dollar is quite possibly the hardest (most stable) currency in the modern world, and is accepted almost universally. 

      The Nords are actually bigger fans of the Septim Empire than anyone. The modern Empire isn't ruled by a Septim, but a Mede, and the Medes are perceived as weak, shallow replacements for the Dragonborn Emperors of old. Talos is worshipped more heavily by the Nords than anyone, and though many people think of it as a Cyrodiilic Empire, it came from Skyrim. The Nords believe that when the Empire abandoned Talos, it abandoned Skyrim and itself. Back to the original point, the Nords could easily still use Septims and trade with the Empire, though if they attempted to set up their own Mint of septims there might be a question there where the Empire refused the legitimacy of their Septims.

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    • What people have to look at is the whole picture, if they do they will see that the Stormcloaks are the only reasonable choice, the empire has allied itself with the dominion, and nuetrality favours the thalmors agenda.

      Why is there this civil war in the first place? let's go back to the Great War, the dominion surprise attack took the empire by storm, yes it was difficult in the beginning, the empire had to fall back, even losing the imperial city, but when they made their counter attack the entire dominion army in Cyrodiil was killed... this was most of their forces seeing as their army was divided between Hammerfell and Cyrodiil then all remaining forces were sent to cyrodiil to aid in the conquest, that force is now gone, likewise the dominion forces in Hammerfell suffered HEAVY LOSSES retreating from the soldiers left there be Decianus (Look into Heavy losses and see what that entails), the dominion was defeated, they had barely enough soldiers to fight a lossing war in hammerfell, yet the Emperor sent for them to hammer out an agreement to end the fighting once and for all, the thalmor knowing they had no chance of militay victory refused to make consessions in the negoptiation and the emperor finally agreed to ALL of their terms, doing this he betrayed his people.

      People of cyrodiil rebelled, Tullius even mentions he had become proficient at quelling rebellions since the end of the war, we also know their was mass rioting in the heartland, even a drug war, and Hammerfell, enraged by the empires betrayal of them to the thalmor are now in a bitter border standoff with the empire who has the dominion supporting them there, tentions between the empire and dominion are high now, this is why the empire NEEDS to please the thalmor in Skyrim to ensure their support in cyrodiil.

      In the game we find out Highrock has cut ties with the empire and the Stormcloaks are seeking an alliance with them, also A redguard woman suggests that Skyrim and Hammerfell form a new state to crush the dominion and bring the empire to justice, and we know Highrock and Hammerfell have always had closer ties than they had with cyrodiil, they are most likely standing united together.

      Morrowind is another nation embittered toward the empire, but respect for Skyrim, being the only nation to offer support durring the red year.

      Stormcloak Skyrim has the potential for an alliance of 4 nations, the empire only 2 with the promise of war with 2 more.

      The empire is not plannig any aggression against the dominion, 25 years of supporting the dominion at the cost of the empire citizens is proof enough.

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    • "the entire dominion army in Cyrodiil was killed."

      No, there is no evidence supporting that at all.

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    • Is that so. Well...

      Is my response to your comment. XD

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    • XD

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:
      "the entire dominion army in Cyrodiil was killed."

      No, there is no evidence supporting that at all.

      Sure there is, the army that was in Cyrodiil was infact annihilated.

      If they had some reserve forces of unblooded and not battle-tried soldiers in their homeland on the other hand is unknown.

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    • "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated. " Excerpt from the Great War book.

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    • I have to agree with theBeardedcanuck. His points on alliances is one me and Zipper constantly point out to the Imperial supporters but they just ignore it and pretend the Empire will unite all the provinces against the Dominion. If that did in fact happen it will be a miracle. Since both Morrowind and Hammerfell hate the Empire, and many citizens from Skyrim and like you said High Rock also hate the Empire.

      Also using logic and reasoning we can deduce that the number of nords that support the Stormcloaks is greater than the number that support the Legion. Since the legion is made up of a lot of different races while the Stormcloaks, for all we know, are made up of only nords. From what we can tell in the war the Stormcloaks can hold their own against the Stormcloaks and Rikke claims more Nords join them with each passing day. As such it is only logical that we assume more nords support the Stormcloaks than the Legion.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated. " Excerpt from the Great War book.

      Firstly it says main army, implying there was more than one army. 

      Secondly it's under the chapter of The Great War titled Battle of the Red Ring Which took place int the Imperial City. The Imperial City is just one city within Cyrodiil. Furthermore information from that book proves that the Dominon had garrisoned at least three other cities.

      Therefore the whole "The Dominion Lost Everything" argument is baseless.

      Still don't believe me?

      Read this before replying.

      P
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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:
      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated. " Excerpt from the Great War book.
      Firstly it says main army, implying there was more than one army. 

      Secondly it's under the chapter of The Great War titled Battle of the Red Ring Which took place int the Imperial City. The Imperial City is just one city within Cyrodiil. Furthermore information from that book proves that the Dominon had garrisoned at least three other cities.

      Therefore the whole "The Dominion Lost Everything" argument is baseless.

      Still don't believe me?

      Read this before replying.

      P

      well you're right indeed.......

      If the whole Aldmeri army is dead,

      then would it make sense if the Empire still bows to the Dominion ?

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    • The Book states that there were indeed two Aldmeri armies in the Great War, one in Hammerfell and One in Cyrodiil, when the dominion changed it's goal of merely confronting the legion while their forces in Hammerfell took over, to actiley conquering the empire the armie in cyrodiil was bolstered with all available forces from the dominion (new recruits and reserve forces seem to fit the description of all, wouldn't you say -'J).

      The Chapter labled "The Battle of Red Ring" starts with the siege of the imperial city, but it ends with the liberation of cyrodiil and states Decianuses forces legions formed a shield wall blocking the retreat of the dominion army, in the end EVERY dominion soldier in cyrodiil was killed... except for Lord Naarafin who was kept alive and hung from the White-Gold Tower.... NOW, if all dominion soldiers in Cyrodiil were killed, and Decianus stoped any of them from retreating, what happened to them o.O?... it shouldn't be to difficult to make the logical connection -'J

      .... one last thing I'd like to point out regarding the emperor deciding to yeild to the dominion in the treaty, he initially wanted to accept the dominions offer before the war, but he felt no one in the empire would support the decision.... chew on that for a while and see what scenarios come to mind about the emperors true agenda -'J


      ~May your road lead you to warm sands :-3

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    • I've gotta say. The civil war was fine for me because I didn't have to choose. But the hardest decision I've had to make was Hadvar or Ralof. I simply fanficked and modded so that we all went together. 

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:

      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated. " Excerpt from the Great War book.

      Firstly it says main army, implying there was more than one army. 

      Secondly it's under the chapter of The Great War titled Battle of the Red Ring Which took place int the Imperial City. The Imperial City is just one city within Cyrodiil. Furthermore information from that book proves that the Dominon had garrisoned at least three other cities.

      Therefore the whole "The Dominion Lost Everything" argument is baseless.

      Still don't believe me?

      Read this before replying.

      P

      Is that so Is that so Well..., Well you seem to have forgotten a few important details.

      Firstly that sentence is ambiguous, meaning that it has more than one possible meanings:

      • It could mean that, like you said, out of the Dominion armies in Cyrodiil the one in the Imperial City is the main one and as such the Dominion could still have most of its troops. So it means its the main army of the ones in Cyrodiil.
      • It could mean that it is the main army of the Dominion that is in Cyrodiil. Which means that most of their troops are dead, as the army in Cyrodiil was the largest army ever made in elven history.

      Secondly you seem to forget that by the time of the Battle of the Red Ring(4E 174 I believe) the Dominion had already retreated from Hammerfell due to the heavy losses they encountered in its first invasion. Those troops either went to Cyrodiil to reinforce it or returned to the Summerset Isles to regroup.

      Thirdly you and many more people seem to think that Titus had omnipotence and knew about the full size of the Dominion's army and that he knew he had killed the most of them. That is not true. Titus and his men didn't know that they just killed the bulk of the Dominion's forces, they believed that the Dominion still had a surplus of units. Which is why he agreed to all the terms and basically surrendered. It was only later that the Imperial Scholars learned that the army in Cyrodiil was the largest.

      As a final point I'll state the obvious. The Dominion suffered heavy losses, they were crippled and out of the count for the War. The Empire also suffered losses though not as much as the Dominion, but their troops were tired and low on moral(especially after they saw the horrible things the Dominion troops did in the Imperial City), it was also out of the count. Non of the two factions could have won the war. Had Titus not surrendered only two possible outcomes could have happened. 1) He tries to invade the Dominion and fails, Dominion victory. 2) He doesn't invade and the two factions enter a cold war as they rebuild their forces up until the inevitable 2nd Great War.

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    • Kadawon01 wrote: I've gotta say. The civil war was fine for me because I didn't have to choose. But the hardest decision I've had to make was Hadvar or Ralof. I simply fanficked and modded so that we all went together. 

      Lol, I just when with Ralof because a second before Alduin attack Hadvar had almost no problem with letting his imperial friends kill me. Sure he said once that I wasn't on the list but then never mentioned it to anyone else other than that bitchy captain woman nor did he try to stop them from trying to kill me. To that I call Hadvar a dick.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Is that so. Well... wrote:

      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated. " Excerpt from the Great War book.
      Firstly it says main army, implying there was more than one army. 

      Secondly it's under the chapter of The Great War titled Battle of the Red Ring Which took place int the Imperial City. The Imperial City is just one city within Cyrodiil. Furthermore information from that book proves that the Dominon had garrisoned at least three other cities.

      Therefore the whole "The Dominion Lost Everything" argument is baseless.

      Still don't believe me?

      Read this before replying.

      P
      Is that so Is that so Well..., Well you seem to have forgotten a few important details.

      Firstly that sentence is ambiguous, meaning that it has more than one possible meanings:

      • It could mean that, like you said, out of the Dominion armies in Cyrodiil the one in the Imperial City is the main one and as such the Dominion could still have most of its troops. So it means its the main army of the ones in Cyrodiil.
      • It could mean that it is the main army of the Dominion that is in Cyrodiil. Which means that most of their troops are dead, as the army in Cyrodiil was the largest army ever made in elven history.

      Secondly you seem to forget that by the time of the Battle of the Red Ring(4E 174 I believe) the Dominion had already retreated from Hammerfell due to the heavy losses they encountered in its first invasion. Those troops either went to Cyrodiil to reinforce it or returned to the Summerset Isles to regroup.

      Thirdly you and many more people seem to think that Titus had omnipotence and knew about the full size of the Dominion's army and that he knew he had killed the most of them. That is not true. Titus and his men didn't know that they just killed the bulk of the Dominion's forces, they believed that the Dominion still had a surplus of units. Which is why he agreed to all the terms and basically surrendered. It was only later that the Imperial Scholars learned that the army in Cyrodiil was the largest.

      As a final point I'll state the obvious. The Dominion suffered heavy losses, they were crippled and out of the count for the War. The Empire also suffered losses though not as much as the Dominion, but their troops were tired and low on moral(especially after they saw the horrible things the Dominion troops did in the Imperial City), it was also out of the count. Non of the two factions could have won the war. Had Titus not surrendered only two possible outcomes could have happened. 1) He tries to invade the Dominion and fails, Dominion victory. 2) He doesn't invade and the two factions enter a cold war as they rebuild their forces up until the inevitable 2nd Great War.

      Yes, a cold war type stand off would have been better than losing the support of Hammerfell (who sucessfully fought off the entire dominion after the empire abandoned them) Highrock and much of Skyrim. the dominion wouldn't have had a chance to build up before the empire was back to full strength.

      In unity there is strength... this is why with the empire abandonment of that principle it has none -'J

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    • Yeah but tell that to Titus back in 4E 175. I believe Titus was stupid back in the Great War and that is one of the reasons I don't like the Mede Dynasty.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      Yeah but tell that to Titus back in 4E 175. I believe Titus was stupid back in the Great War and that is one of the reasons I don't like the Mede Dynasty.

      Damn that's damn true.

      I'll add that to my "reasons to not like the Mede Empire" list. LOL

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Firstly that sentence is ambiguous, meaning that it has more than one possible meanings:

      • It could mean that, like you said, out of the Dominion armies in Cyrodiil the one in the Imperial City is the main one and as such the Dominion could still have most of its troops. So it means its the main army of the ones in Cyrodiil.
      • It could mean that it is the main army of the Dominion that is in Cyrodiil. Which means that most of their troops are dead, as the army in Cyrodiil was the largest army ever made in elven history.

      Secondly you seem to forget that by the time of the Battle of the Red Ring(4E 174 I believe) the Dominion had already retreated from Hammerfell due to the heavy losses they encountered in its first invasion. Those troops either went to Cyrodiil to reinforce it or returned to the Summerset Isles to regroup.

      Thirdly you and many more people seem to think that Titus had omnipotence and knew about the full size of the Dominion's army and that he knew he had killed the most of them. That is not true. Titus and his men didn't know that they just killed the bulk of the Dominion's forces, they believed that the Dominion still had a surplus of units. Which is why he agreed to all the terms and basically surrendered. It was only later that the Imperial Scholars learned that the army in Cyrodiil was the largest.

      As a final point I'll state the obvious. The Dominion suffered heavy losses, they were crippled and out of the count for the War. The Empire also suffered losses though not as much as the Dominion, but their troops were tired and low on moral(especially after they saw the horrible things the Dominion troops did in the Imperial City), it was also out of the count. Non of the two factions could have won the war. Had Titus not surrendered only two possible outcomes could have happened. 1) He tries to invade the Dominion and fails, Dominion victory. 2) He doesn't invade and the two factions enter a cold war as they rebuild their forces up until the inevitable 2nd Great War.

      Yes, a cold war type stand off would have been better than losing the support of Hammerfell (who sucessfully fought off the entire dominion after the empire abandoned them) Highrock and much of Skyrim. the dominion wouldn't have had a chance to build up before the empire was back to full strength.

      In unity there is strength... this is why with the empire abandonment of that principle it has none -'J

      So what you guys are trying to tell is......

      Empire Full Strenght > Aldmeri Dominion

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    • @Stormblind 

      Indeed, but since this is no longer a possiblity due to irrevocable damage caused by the empire the hope lies soley on the spiritual sucessors of the empire, the Stormcloaks, for rather than working with the dominion to crush all those opposed to the dominion in a futile effort to placate them, they are uniting and defending the people by crushing those that want them dead or subjugated.

      ~Talos Guide You -'J

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    • No, don't put words into my mouth. I clearly said in my last point that both factions were crippled and out of the count for the war. The Empire presumably had more troops than the Dominion but their troops were tired and low on moral, thanks to 5 years of fighting.

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    • @Harold Burned-Mane 

      The empire effectively lost 3 legions in the war, some of the soldiers in those destroyed legions are still alive, notably Skjor, Galmar, Rikke and Ulfric.

      Sure the soldiers were tired, but they would have plenty of time to rest now, their victory a serious boost to their morale.

      I don't think it can be argued that Hammerfell wasn't the most exhausted from war, going right from a long bitter civil war to the aldmeri invasion, but they still prevailed after another 5 years of fighting!

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    • Yeah I know that now they've had enough time I was saying back in 4E 175 neither faction could continue fighting.

      As for the Dominion's military strength there is two major factors that would greatly influence it. When elves reach maturity, I've explained on a different thread that I personally believe the elves reach maturity around 28 years old, meaning that it hasn't been enough time yet for the new elves born after the Great War to have matured. The second factor is if the Khajiit, who presumably reproduce faster than the human races due to their feline biological traits, are a big part of the army or not.

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    • That's because Redguards are /amazing/ though. Don't fight a Redguard in a desert. I can't imagine that Elven armor isn't sweaty.

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    • Cipher3 wrote: That's because Redguards are /amazing/ though. Don't fight a Redguard in a desert. I can't imagine that Elven armor isn't sweaty.

      The redguards also suffered heavy losses, they were outnumbered but because of their adaptability to their own province they were able to fight the Elves to a standstill.

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    • If the Dominion's entire military was destroyed and the Empire had a somewhat of a standing army as some of you say then why the hell would the empire agree to a treaty on the Dominions terms? Thats like Alexander letting the Persians dictate the terms of the teaty after he crushed them after Gaugamela and the battle of the Persian Gate.... obviously the Dominion had a strong, large reserve, enough to pose a threat to the empire if it was able to demand lands in hammerfall and impose heavy handed terms against the empire. if not the Empire could have at least replenished the numbers of some legions over the next few years and crushed the Dominion. As an Empire supporter myself i just have to say to the others face it, the empire isnt the same empire as ES1-4, its very similar to Rome in its last hundred years or so, bethesda is making it obvious that its about to collapse, and just like Rome too (which its based off of) due to internal strife, corruption, a weakened army that is no longer the strongest in the land, lack of strong leadership, etc.  You can even hear it in Tullius' voice compared to Ulfrics he has this "another day another dollar" tone saying things like "you damn nords and your honor/customs" christ his lieutenant seems more enthusiastic then he does.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote: If the Dominion's entire military was destroyed and the Empire had a somewhat of a standing army as some of you say then why the hell would the empire agree to a treaty on the Dominions terms? Thats like Alexander letting the Persians dictate the terms of the teaty after he crushed them after Gaugamela and the battle of the Persian Gate.... obviously the Dominion had a strong, large reserve, enough to pose a threat to the empire if it was able to demand lands in hammerfall and impose heavy handed terms against the empire. if not the Empire could have at least replenished the numbers of some legions over the next few years and crushed the Dominion. As an Empire supporter myself i just have to say to the others face it, the empire isnt the same empire as ES1-4, its very similar to Rome in its last hundred years or so, bethesda is making it obvious that its about to collapse, and just like Rome too (which its based off of) due to internal strife, corruption, a weakened army that is no longer the strongest in the land, lack of strong leadership, etc.  You can even hear it in Tullius' voice compared to Ulfrics he has this "another day another dollar" tone saying things like "you damn nords and your honor/customs" christ his lieutenant seems more enthusiastic then he does.

      The Dominion's entire military wasn't destroyed, their largest army, the Cyrodiil one, was. They still had troops, how much the Empire didn't know, but they knew they still have troops. Titus is not omnipotent, he didn't know just how much troops the Dominion still had. As for the demands they were the same ones from before the war. Non of the Imperial forces wanted to continue fighting, they were sick and tired of the Great War. This low moral basically forced Titus to do anything to end the war, but the Dominion was stubborn and wouldn't end it unless all the terms from before the war were met.

      I like your comparison of the current state of the Empire with the final years of the Roman Empire, now that I think about it you are right my good sir. The resemblance is pretty obvious. Tullius has stated he has gotten good at quelling rebellions, meaning other parts of the Empire also rebelled and he was forced to intervene by order of the Emperor. So to him it real is another day another dollar.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      I like your comparison of the current state of the Empire with the final years of the Roman Empire, now that I think about it you are right my good sir. The resemblance is pretty obvious. Tullius has stated he has gotten good at quelling rebellions, meaning other parts of the Empire also rebelled and he was forced to intervene by order of the Emperor. So to him it real is another day another dollar.

      Yeah as much as I'm a fan of the Imperials the Empires on the way out imo. Its possible that the Nords could come back and re create the first Nordic Empire again however, that or all the Nations will resist the Thalmor in their own way as independant nations

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      I like your comparison of the current state of the Empire with the final years of the Roman Empire, now that I think about it you are right my good sir. The resemblance is pretty obvious. Tullius has stated he has gotten good at quelling rebellions, meaning other parts of the Empire also rebelled and he was forced to intervene by order of the Emperor. So to him it real is another day another dollar.

      Yeah as much as I'm a fan of the Imperials the Empires on the way out imo. Its possible that the Nords could come back and re create the first Nordic Empire again however, that or all the Nations will resist the Thalmor in their own way as independant nations

      It would be pretty cool if the Nations all band together and defeat the Dominion then they all remain independent with the Elder Council serving as a form of the UN.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      99.105.83.169 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      I like your comparison of the current state of the Empire with the final years of the Roman Empire, now that I think about it you are right my good sir. The resemblance is pretty obvious. Tullius has stated he has gotten good at quelling rebellions, meaning other parts of the Empire also rebelled and he was forced to intervene by order of the Emperor. So to him it real is another day another dollar.

      Yeah as much as I'm a fan of the Imperials the Empires on the way out imo. Its possible that the Nords could come back and re create the first Nordic Empire again however, that or all the Nations will resist the Thalmor in their own way as independant nations
      It would be pretty cool if the Nations all band together and defeat the Dominion then they all remain independent with the Elder Council serving as a form of the UN.

      I view Dominion to be like the Red-Coats, Dwemer as Extinc Soviets, and While Tamriel Empire to be Napoleons Empire. and Akavir being Asians XD

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    • Because of the Thalmor the Third Aldmeri Dominion is more akin to Nazi Germany than the Red-Coats of England.

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    • @A Wikia contributor 

      Not the entire dominion millitary was killed, just most of it.

      the entire force in cyrodiil wich was noted as being the largest elven army ever assembled even prior to them calling in all available reserves, was destroyed, every last soldier killed. the force in Hammerfell suffered what they called heavy losses, this is significant because of what heavey losses means, a good example is the mongolian invasion of japan, the mongolian fleet suffered heavey losses, losing around 75% of it's fighting forces and most of their supplies. if we assume the armies were dead even in numbers between cyrodiil and hammerfell that still leaves the dominion in a rough spot having only 12.5% of it's army still alive.

      it is not obvious that the dominion still had a large standing army any more than it's obvious that a gamble playing poker has a winning hand based soley on him betting all in... the thalmor bluffed, their loss in Hammerfell proves it, or do you think alowing great numbers of their own forces to die needlessly when they had the overwhelming forces to wipe out all oposition was somehow their master Plan?

      not all of the imperial forces wanted to accept the White-Gold Concordat, Hammerfell obviously didn't, nor did Skyrim, and something lead Highrock to shut out Cyrodiil / the empire

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    • ^Except the Mongolians didnt win, thats my point.

      it wasnt a gamble, each side in a war has spies and an intelligence network, if the Dominion was outnumber to such a degree by the Empire and Hammerfall then, as i said, they could beat them back to their elven lands and impose a treaty on them. you dont win a war with almost your entire army destroyed while both Enemies outnumber you, thats called a "turning of the tide" if you will.

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:

      not all of the imperial forces wanted to accept the White-Gold Concordat, Hammerfell obviously didn't, nor did Skyrim, and something lead Highrock to shut out Cyrodiil / the empire

      thats true but most of the legions come from Imperial territory and are made up of Imperial troops, out of 10 i think 2 or 3 are made mostly of foreign conscripts (dont quote me on that)? and they lost a good portion of Hammerfalls legion with the Nordic one being completely destroyed and a number of imperial ones cut down to half their size or less.

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    • @A Wikia contributor

      Yes, the Mongolians didn't win, just as the dominion did not win -'J

      Jonnas legions were said to have been battered by piecemeal aldmeri assaults but they held firm, the legions were not cut in half, sure there were wounded in all legions, but they would recover, in all 3 legions worth of soldiers were confirmed dead, 2 of them in the battle of Red ring alone, but not every member of those legions were killed, Skjor survived and he was part of the 8th legion, the one that defended the imperial city while the emperor bravely ran (gotta get Sr. Robbins minstrels to sing a song about that xD)

      There were many Nord legions ni the war, most of the rienforcements to the legion being nords.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote: ^Except the Mongolians didnt win, thats my point.

      it wasnt a gamble, each side in a war has spies and an intelligence network, if the Dominion was outnumber to such a degree by the Empire and Hammerfall then, as i said, they could beat them back to their elven lands and impose a treaty on them. you dont win a war with almost your entire army destroyed while both Enemies outnumber you, thats called a "turning of the tide" if you will.

      I would like to remind you that the Imperials spies in that time were called Blades and that EVERY SINGLE Blade in Summerset Isles/Valenwood/Elsweyr was killed by the Thalmor and their heads were brought to the Imperial City. So the Empire had no idea what was going on in Dominion territory.

      They did turn the tide of the war, before the Dominion was clearly winning. After the Battle of the Red Ring and the successful expulsion of Dominion forces in Hammerfell the Empire were winning. But the unknown and the exhaustion of its units was the undoing of the Empire that made them have to sign the WGC. Like I said the Empire didn't know what was going on in Dominion territory, neither how many troops that the AD still had in those provinces.

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    • @Harold Burned-Mane

      No Blades were harmed in Elsweyr, only the Aldmeri Dominion which si Valenwood and Summerset Isles, Aquina and Pelantine are tributary client states, just like Cyrodiil is now, they allow the thalmor free acess to their lands and pay tribute, but they are only ruled by the thalmor as much as the Imperials are.

      The Blades still knew about the Bosmer purges, how the thalmor were "purifying" the race of mer.

      Still, even if the emperor didn't know the condition of the dominions army, he still had no authority to dictate control of Hammerfell, they are an allied nation... well, were -'J

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Is that so. Well... wrote:


      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      "In the end, the main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil was completely destroyed. The Emperor's decision to withdraw from the Imperial City in 4E 174 was bloodily vindicated. " Excerpt from the Great War book.
      Firstly it says main army, implying there was more than one army. 

      Secondly it's under the chapter of The Great War titled Battle of the Red Ring Which took place int the Imperial City. The Imperial City is just one city within Cyrodiil. Furthermore information from that book proves that the Dominon had garrisoned at least three other cities.

      Therefore the whole "The Dominion Lost Everything" argument is baseless.

      Still don't believe me?

      Read this before replying.

      P
      Is that so Is that so Well..., Well you seem to have forgotten a few important details.

      Firstly that sentence is ambiguous, meaning that it has more than one possible meanings:

      • It could mean that, like you said, out of the Dominion armies in Cyrodiil the one in the Imperial City is the main one and as such the Dominion could still have most of its troops. So it means its the main army of the ones in Cyrodiil.
      • It could mean that it is the main army of the Dominion that is in Cyrodiil. Which means that most of their troops are dead, as the army in Cyrodiil was the largest army ever made in elven history.

      Secondly you seem to forget that by the time of the Battle of the Red Ring(4E 174 I believe) the Dominion had already retreated from Hammerfell due to the heavy losses they encountered in its first invasion. Those troops either went to Cyrodiil to reinforce it or returned to the Summerset Isles to regroup.

      Thirdly you and many more people seem to think that Titus had omnipotence and knew about the full size of the Dominion's army and that he knew he had killed the most of them. That is not true. Titus and his men didn't know that they just killed the bulk of the Dominion's forces, they believed that the Dominion still had a surplus of units. Which is why he agreed to all the terms and basically surrendered. It was only later that the Imperial Scholars learned that the army in Cyrodiil was the largest.

      As a final point I'll state the obvious. The Dominion suffered heavy losses, they were crippled and out of the count for the War. The Empire also suffered losses though not as much as the Dominion, but their troops were tired and low on moral(especially after they saw the horrible things the Dominion troops did in the Imperial City), it was also out of the count. Non of the two factions could have won the war. Had Titus not surrendered only two possible outcomes could have happened. 1) He tries to invade the Dominion and fails, Dominion victory. 2) He doesn't invade and the two factions enter a cold war as they rebuild their forces up until the inevitable 2nd Great War.

      Ok, well if it meant that all the Dominion troops in Cyrodiil were destroyed, then why wouldn't it say that? Plus as I said before it was under the part titled The Battle of the Red Ring which is the batttle that took place in the Imperial City, and again that is one city within Cyrodiil. At least three other cities in Cyrodiil were garrisoned. 

      Secondly If the Dominion had indeed had indeed lost every soldier in Cyrodiil, which is actually impossible, then the Empire could have just turned around at any second and defeated them. The fact that the Empire would go to war with the Stormcloaks and help the Dominion's influence in Skyrim, along with the fact the Dominion has presence in Skyrim, still controls Valenwood and Elsweyr shows that either:

      a. The Dominion losses weren't as great as most believe.

      b. The Dominion has recovered significantly. 

      c. Both of the above.

      And no I don't think Titus was Omnipotent, he was just smart to realise that his people were suffering and the war needed to end. Of course many people think he betrayed the Empire and Talos for surrendering to the Dominion. However I think that he just didn't want to sentence his people to death and instead let each individual choose to worship Talos at their own risk.

      By the way the Dominion and Hammerfell actually kept fighting after the WGC so that's proof the Dominion still had strength left.

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote: @Harold Burned-Mane

      No Blades were harmed in Elsweyr, only the Aldmeri Dominion which si Valenwood and Summerset Isles, Aquina and Pelantine are tributary client states, just like Cyrodiil is now, they allow the thalmor free acess to their lands and pay tribute, but they are only ruled by the thalmor as much as the Imperials are.

      The Blades still knew about the Bosmer purges, how the thalmor were "purifying" the race of mer.

      Still, even if the emperor didn't know the condition of the dominions army, he still had no authority to dictate control of Hammerfell, they are an allied nation... well, were -'J

      Anequina and Pelletine are puppet states. They are client states of the Dominion yes, but nevertheless they are part of it. Because of the puppet governments they basically are ruled by the Thalmor.

      Cyrodiil is not a puppet state neither are they a client state. They are "allies" of the Dominion, but must abide by the terms of the WGC. One of the terms in staggering tributes but that is it, they aren't a client state.

      As for the Blades how do you know after the war started that all the agents in Elsweyr weren't killed? The Thalmor hunted down every Blade in Tamriel, only a few were able to hide like Delphine and Esbern.

      Hammerfell, like the other provinces, was a part of the Empire. They had more autonomy than most other provinces and could keep their culture and rulers(The Empire didn't choose the governors or kings of the province) much like how Morrowind was. But they were subordinate to the Empire. The Emperor had the authority to give the land away even though he knew it would piss of the redguards, which was likely the Thalmor's plan.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote: 1) Ok, well if it meant that all the Dominion troops in Cyrodiil were destroyed, then why wouldn't it say that? Plus as I said before it was under the part titled The Battle of the Red Ring which is the batttle that took place in the Imperial City, and again that is one city within Cyrodiil. At least three other cities in Cyrodiil were garrisoned. 

      2) Secondly If the Dominion had indeed had indeed lost every soldier in Cyrodiil, which is actually impossible, then the Empire could have just turned around at any second and defeated them. The fact that the Empire would go to war with the Stormcloaks and help the Dominion's influence in Skyrim, along with the fact the Dominion has presence in Skyrim, still controls Valenwood and Elsweyr shows that either:

      a. The Dominion losses weren't as great as most believe.

      b. The Dominion has recovered significantly. 

      c. Both of the above.

      3) And no I don't think Titus was Omnipotent, he was just smart to realise that his people were suffering and the war needed to end. Of course many people think he betrayed the Empire and Talos for surrendering to the Dominion. However I think that he just didn't want to sentence his people to death and instead let each individual choose to worship Talos at their own risk.

      4) By the way the Dominion and Hammerfell actually kept fighting after the WGC so that's proof the Dominion still had strength left.

      1) They captured those three cities, but did it specifically say by how many troops they were garrisoned? For all we know they could have left a few dozen troops there just to keep the populace in check while the rest of the troops conquered the rest of Cyrodiil. You do not know how many were there so you cannot assume that huge armies were left there. All that we know is Lord Naarifin's army was the largest army in elven history and that he was in the Imperial City.

      2) I've already stated on numerous other threads and in this one in a few posts that the Empire didn't have the man power, the knowledge or the moral to invade the Dominion. They still had more troops than the Dominion, who for all we know had used all their troops in the Invasions of Cyrodiil ad Hammerfell(in which the Cyrodiil force was crippeled and the Hammerfell force suffered heavy losses). Evidence of just how weak the Dominion was is the fact that Hammerfell alone with the troops of the Crowns and the Forebears(already weakened by the Great War) were able to fight the "full" might of the Dominion to a standstill.

      3) He "surrendered" because as I've said numerous times the Empire was in no shape to continue fighting. Three legions had been completely destroyed and the rest only had half of its soldiers in fighting shape. The men were tired and low on moral. He couldn't continue, he knew this. This is why he agreed to the WGC, not because the Dominion was still a threat.

      4) The Dominion had conquered a big part of Southern Hammerfell during the Great War and Hammerfell was also weakened by the Great War. The fact that they were able to fight the Dominion to a standstill by themselves proves just how weak the Dominion's armies really where, as both their invasion forces suffered heavy losses in the Great War. One of the terms of the 2nd Treaty of Stros M'Kai is the full withdraw of Dominion forces from Hammerfell. The redguards basically won, they kicked the Dominion out of their province.

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:
      @A Wikia contributor

      Yes, the Mongolians didn't win, just as the dominion did not win -'J


      The Dominion didnt win? then why did they dictate the terms of the tearty? you dont dictate the terms unless your a winner. 

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    • GUYS GUYS GUYS!!!.....

      lets stop this flame war shall we..?

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    • I would love to know why cities aren't repaired after the war has ended, and yes I know there are mods that repair all the cities.

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    • Alduin1996 wrote:
      I would love to know why cities aren't repaired after the war has ended, and yes I know there are mods that repair all the cities.

      Because of Bethesdas laziness.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:
      TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:
      @A Wikia contributorYes, the Mongolians didn't win, just as the dominion did not win -'J


      The Dominion didnt win? then why did they dictate the terms of the tearty? you dont dictate the terms unless your a winner. 

      Because Mede acted hastily and foolishly?

      Despite the fact it should have been clear that a stalemate had been reached and that all that would have happened if the treaty wasn't signed would have been a socalled "phony war"?

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    • Wow, this is still ongoing? Alrighty, I'll throw in my two cents:

      Both Imperials and Stormcloaks are acting incredibly stupid by fighting the Civil War while the Dominion gathers its forces for a second Great War. Both Ulfric and Mede know it, hell, everyone in Tamriel knows its coming. Every Legionnaire and Stormcloak who dies fighting each other is one less soldier to fight the Dominion.

      While I would prefer neither faction triumph but instead make peace, I do have an Imperial bias. All I dislike about them (i.e signing the Concordat and betraying Hammerfell) can be attributed to one man: Titus Mede II, and he's dead now. Plus, I spent countless hours in Morrowind and Oblivion fighting to save the Empire, I'd hate it to all be a waste. Whereas what I dislike about the Stormcloaks is endemic to more than a single man (though Ulfric being replaced would go a long way for me, provided he's replaced by someone who's not exactly like him or worse).

      Long story short, on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is Stormcloak supporter and 10 is Imperial supporter, I'd be a 7.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:
      @A Wikia contributor

      Yes, the Mongolians didn't win, just as the dominion did not win -'J

      The Dominion didnt win? then why did they dictate the terms of the tearty? you dont dictate the terms unless your a winner. 

      They were wining before the Battle of the Red Ring, then Titus came along and annihilated the largest Dominion Army in one battle. (Say what you will about the man but he was a great General). After that both sides were at a standstill, neither could continue the war. Then Titus contacted the Dominion to negotiate but they refused anything less than what they demanded before the war. Titus knew the Dominion was too suborn to give in so in order to achieve peace he had to agree to all the WGC's terms.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: Wow, this is still ongoing? Alrighty, I'll throw in my two cents:

      Both Imperials and Stormcloaks are acting incredibly stupid by fighting the Civil War while the Dominion gathers its forces for a second Great War. Both Ulfric and Mede know it, hell, everyone in Tamriel knows its coming. Every Legionnaire and Stormcloak who dies fighting each other is one less soldier to fight the Dominion.

      While I would prefer neither faction triumph but instead make peace, I do have an Imperial bias. All I dislike about them (i.e signing the Concordat and betraying Hammerfell) can be attributed to one man: Titus Mede II, and he's dead now. Plus, I spent countless hours in Morrowind and Oblivion fighting to save the Empire, I'd hate it to all be a waste. Whereas what I dislike about the Stormcloaks is endemic to more than a single man (though Ulfric being replaced would go a long way for me, provided he's replaced by someone who's not exactly like him or worse).

      Long story short, on a scale of 1 to 10 where 1 is Stormcloak supporter and 10 is Imperial supporter, I'd be a 7.

      True but all the Stormcloaks can do is fight the Legion, they don't think that the Imperial will lift a finger against the Dominion any time soon. So in their mind its either be ruled by the Thalmor for an unforeseeable amount of time or fight the Empire to gain their independence. The Stormcloaks are backed into a corner and the Empire are the ones that pushed them there, and are continuing to keep them there.

      Another person made a real smart comparison between the state the Empire is in now and the final years of the Roman Empire. They are strikingly similar. 99.105.83.169 :

      "As an Empire supporter myself I just have to say to the others face it, the empire isn't the same empire as ES1-4, its very similar to Rome in its last hundred years or so, Bethesda is making it obvious that its about to collapse, and just like Rome too (which its based off of) due to internal strife, corruption, a weakened army that is no longer the strongest in the land, lack of strong leadership, etc."
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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      True but all the Stormcloaks can do is fight the Legion, they don't think that the Imperial will lift a finger against the Dominion any time soon. So in their mind its either be ruled by the Thalmor for an unforeseeable amount of time or fight the Empire to gain their independence. The Stormcloaks are backed into a corner and the Empire are the ones that pushed them there, and are continuing to keep them there.

      Another person made a real smart comparison between the state the Empire is in now and the final years of the Roman Empire. They are strikingly similar. 99.105.83.169 :

      "As an Empire supporter myself I just have to say to the others face it, the empire isn't the same empire as ES1-4, its very similar to Rome in its last hundred years or so, Bethesda is making it obvious that its about to collapse, and just like Rome too (which its based off of) due to internal strife, corruption, a weakened army that is no longer the strongest in the land, lack of strong leadership, etc."

      The Empire is readying their forces for a Second Great War. Tulius and Rikke tell you they know it's coming. The Empire might not be actively taking the fight to the Dominion, but that, again, is Titues Mede II's fault, and he's dead now. I know some people like Zipper believe the Empire will just sit down and let themselves be killed when the Dominion attacks again, but I know they'll fight.

      As to being pushed into a corner, what people always seem to overlook is that all of humanity is being pushed into a corner, not just the Nords. The Thalmor want to exterminate all of humanity, after all, not just eradicate Talos worship.

      Also, I highly doubt the Empire is going to collapse, not entirely. After all, the Mede Empire is the fourth Human Empire. The Alessian, Reman and Septim Empires all rose and fell only to be replaced by a new Cyrodiilic Empire after a short while.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      The Empire is readying their forces for a Second Great War. Tulius and Rikke tell you they know it's coming. The Empire might not be actively taking the fight to the Dominion, but that, again, is Titues Mede II's fault, and he's dead now. I know some people like Zipper believe the Empire will just sit down and let themselves be killed when the Dominion attacks again, but I know they'll fight.

      As to being pushed into a corner, what people always seem to overlook is that all of humanity is being pushed into a corner, not just the Nords. The Thalmor want to exterminate all of humanity, after all, not just eradicate Talos worship.

      Also, I highly doubt the Empire is going to collapse, not entirely. After all, the Mede Empire is the fourth Human Empire. The Alessian, Reman and Septim Empires all rose and fell only to be replaced by a new Cyrodiilic Empire after a short while.

      Until they prove it with actions that's just words, wind.

      The Embassy quest showed Imperial officials budding up to and signing trade deals with the AD, that isn't how gearing up for conflict looks. Now they'll lose money if they go to war.


      Stormcloaks on the other hand are on the ground dealing with the Thalmor filth.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      1) Until they prove it with actions that's just words, wind.

      2) The Embassy quest showed Imperial officials budding up to and signing trade deals with the AD, that isn't how gearing up for conflict looks. Now they'll lose money if they go to war.

      Stormcloaks on the other hand are on the ground dealing with the Thalmor filth.

      1) If you honestly think the Empire will sit down and let themselves be killed when the Dominion invades, that's just absurd.

      2) The Embassy quest also showed a lot of Nords cozzying up to the Thalmor and signing trade deals. Individuals of a certain race being nice to them does not mean their entire race is with them.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      1) If you honestly think the Empire will sit down and let themselves be killed when the Dominion invades, that's just absurd.

      2) The Embassy quest also showed a lot of Nords cozzying up to the Thalmor and signing trade deals. Individuals of a certain race being nice to them does not mean their entire race is with them.

      1 I feel they are turning into vassals, not that they will let themselves be killed per say.

      2 I really meant people aligned with the Imperial faction more than Race there.

      I don't think the Nords there were making deals for Skyrim though that is just conjecture on my part.

      I usually say Cyrodiilians instead of Imperials when I mean the Race.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      1 I feel they are turning into vassals, not that they will let themselves be killed per say.

      2 I really meant people aligned with the Imperial faction more than Race there.

      I don't think the Nords there were making deals for Skyrim though that is just conjecture on my part.

      I usually say Cyrodiilians instead of Imperials when I mean the Race.

      The Thalmor want to exterminate all humans, not enslave them. They're not interested in vassals in the long run.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      The Thalmor want to exterminate all humans, not enslave them. They're not interested in vassals in the long run.

      True, but Mer are longlived.

      Their short run is probably longer than humans short run plus I'm not sure if many ingame Imperial aligned NPC's know the Thalmor's long term plans.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      True, but Mer are longlived.

      Their short run is probably longer than humans short run plus I'm not sure if many ingame Imperial aligned NPC's know the Thalmor's long term plans.

      Pretty sure the whole invasion and butchery of innocents during the Great War outlined their plans pretty clearly.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Pretty sure the whole invasion and butchery of innocents during the Great War outlined their plans pretty clearly.

      And see were that got them?


      I'm sure they are clever enough to alter their short term plans in accordance to reality in order to fullfill their longterm plans.

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    • Madness is doing the same thing expecting different result, even if I view them as insane omnicidals I do think they know when not to repeat themselves.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote: Madness is doing the same thing expecting different result, even if I view them as insane omnicidals I do think they know when not to repeat themselves.

      Correction. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      True but all the Stormcloaks can do is fight the Legion, they don't think that the Imperial will lift a finger against the Dominion any time soon. So in their mind its either be ruled by the Thalmor for an unforeseeable amount of time or fight the Empire to gain their independence. The Stormcloaks are backed into a corner and the Empire are the ones that pushed them there, and are continuing to keep them there.

      Another person made a real smart comparison between the state the Empire is in now and the final years of the Roman Empire. They are strikingly similar. 99.105.83.169 :

      "As an Empire supporter myself I just have to say to the others face it, the empire isn't the same empire as ES1-4, its very similar to Rome in its last hundred years or so, Bethesda is making it obvious that its about to collapse, and just like Rome too (which its based off of) due to internal strife, corruption, a weakened army that is no longer the strongest in the land, lack of strong leadership, etc."

      The Empire is readying their forces for a Second Great War. Tulius and Rikke tell you they know it's coming. The Empire might not be actively taking the fight to the Dominion, but that, again, is Titues Mede II's fault, and he's dead now. I know some people like Zipper believe the Empire will just sit down and let themselves be killed when the Dominion attacks again, but I know they'll fight.

      As to being pushed into a corner, what people always seem to overlook is that all of humanity is being pushed into a corner, not just the Nords. The Thalmor want to exterminate all of humanity, after all, not just eradicate Talos worship.

      Also, I highly doubt the Empire is going to collapse, not entirely. After all, the Mede Empire is the fourth Human Empire. The Alessian, Reman and Septim Empires all rose and fell only to be replaced by a new Cyrodiilic Empire after a short while.

      The Empire isn't sending troops to Southern Cyrodiil to invade the Dominion, those troops are there to fight a possible invasion. As there have been rumors that the Dominion are planning another invasion in the south.

      The Empire doesn't want to fight the Dominion, they will do everything they can to maintain the peace between them and the Dominion. But if the Dominion does invade of course they will defend themselves. But by then the Thalmor will have already dug their claws so deep into the Empire that it all crumbles.

      The Septim Empire didn't fall, the Septim Dynasty fell. It was replaced by the Mede Dynasty, but it is still the same Empire.

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    • I don't get how so many people think Tullius and Elenwen are BFF's, the empire didn't sign the treaty if they were going to win. Do you honestly believe the dominion was making the demands if Mede was winning?

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      Madness is doing the same thing expecting different result, even if I view them as insane omnicidals I do think they know when not to repeat themselves.

      I wouldn't say that trying something that only failed once is insanity.

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    • Kadawon01 wrote: I don't get how so many people think Tullius and Elenwen are BFF's, the empire didn't sign the treaty if they were going to win. Do you honestly believe the dominion was making the demands if Mede was winning?

      No one has claimed that Tullius and Elenwen are BFFs. I've already stated on other posts why the Empire signed the WGC, both factions were in no shape to continue the war. The Empire agreed to all the terms because they really wanted the war to end. But the Dominion wasn't winning, however neither was the Empire. Though the Empire did turn the tide of the war after the Battle of the Red Ring, as the Dominion had all but won before then.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      The Empire isn't sending troops to Southern Cyrodiil to invade the Dominion, those troops are there to fight a possible invasion. As there have been rumors that the Dominion are planning another invasion in the south.

      The Empire doesn't want to fight the Dominion, they will do everything they can to maintain the peace between them and the Dominion. But if the Dominion does invade of course they will defend themselves. But by then the Thalmor will have already dug their claws so deep into the Empire that it all crumbles.

      The Septim Empire didn't fall, the Septim Dynasty fell. It was replaced by the Mede Dynasty, but it is still the same Empire.

      Correction: MEDE doesn't want to fight the Dominion. I'm hopeful the next Emperor will take a more foreceful approach.

      I wouldn't call the Septim Empire the same as the Mede one, not at all. The Septim Empire was far greater in every respect, it stretched across all of Tamriel and ushered in centuries of peace and prosperity. The Mede Empire is barely clinging to life.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      80.216.220.71 wrote:
      Madness is doing the same thing expecting different result, even if I view them as insane omnicidals I do think they know when not to repeat themselves.

      I wouldn't say that trying something that only failed once is insanity.

      That is what Hitler though when he ordered his armies to invade Russia.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      That is what Hitler though when he ordered his armies to invade Russia.

      Nah, insanity is sending your troops into Russia without winter equipment.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      That is what Hitler though when he ordered his armies to invade Russia.

      Nah, insanity is sending your troops into Russia without winter equipment.


      Nah, insanity is ending your troops into Russia. Like Black Marsh.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Kadawon01 wrote: I don't get how so many people think Tullius and Elenwen are BFF's, the empire didn't sign the treaty if they were going to win. Do you honestly believe the dominion was making the demands if Mede was winning?

      No one has claimed that Tullius and Elenwen are BFFs. I've already stated on other posts why the Empire signed the WGC, both factions were in no shape to continue the war. The Empire agreed to all the terms because they really wanted the war to end. But the Dominion wasn't winning, however neither was the Empire. Though the Empire did turn the tide of the war after the Battle of the Red Ring, as the Dominion had all but won before then.

      That would be me, I have said they are BFFs though I have never seen anyone else do it but I really only mean it as hyperbole, a rethorical device.

      I don't actually think that they like, braid eachothers hair and stuff.

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    • I'm actually trying to draw a picture of Elenwen and Tullius hugging, but they both are holding daggers aimed to eachother's backs, if only I was a good artist.

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:

      I don't actually think that they like, braid eachothers hair and stuff.

      Oh, sorry and I started saying it because he went out of his way to invite her to a meeting where she really had no place ie the peace/ceasefire summit with the Greybeards and also defend her presence when he should have as a human badmouthed her unless he values her in some way.

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    • Kadawon01 wrote:

      Draevan13 wrote:
      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      That is what Hitler though when he ordered his armies to invade Russia.

      Nah, insanity is sending your troops into Russia without winter equipment.


      Nah, insanity is ending your troops into Russia. Like Black Marsh.

      Tiber Septim sent his armies to Black Marsh and occupied the outer swamps. Guess that makes him insane

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    • Actually, I've been having a bit of a coflict with myself about if I should let her stay at the peace meeting. She has legal rights to be there, but I hate her. It's a tough Roleplay situation.

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    • Actually, I've been having a bit of a coflict with myself about if I should let her stay at the peace meeting. She has legal rights to be there, but I hate her. It's a tough Roleplay situation.

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    • She has a legal right to have an "accident" and fall of the mountain.

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    • Well, her being there makes sense. I know, I know, "Damn the thalmor!" But when them being there is justified, it matters.

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    • I told her to go f*ck herself. I don't care if the Empire needs to follow the terms of the WGC or not, she is not welcome.

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    • @A Wikia contributor 

      I never found any indication in game that tullius and Elenwen were friends, but at the Thalmor Party Tillius mentions he admires and respects her, even says she would have been a fine legionnare if circumstances were different.

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    • This is why I hope she's the antagonist for ES6, she's easily hatable, and she's an actually interesting female antagonist. Which we need more of (protagonists as well in non rpgs).

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    • Kadawon01 wrote:
      I'm actually trying to draw a picture of Elenwen and Tullius hugging, but they both are holding daggers aimed to eachother's backs, if only I was a good artist.

      That really should already exist, though I'd be interested to see it if you ever decide to upload it.

      No one would ever hug Elenwen without being armed.

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    • @Draevan13 

      Don't forget the 1st Empire formed by the Nords, I know it was set up by ysgramor but i don't think he was declared the first emperor, can't recall off hand who it was

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:
      @Draevan13 

      Don't forget the 1st Empire formed by the Nords, I know it was set up by ysgramor but i don't think he was declared the first emperor, can't recall off hand who it was

      No, the first Cyrodiilic Empire was founded by Alessia, not Ysgramor. It was even called the Alessian Empire.

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    • Draevan13 

      The Nord empire was before the Alessian Empire was formed, it expanded from Highrock to Morrowind... though come to think of it, wasn't the start of the 1st era the formation of the Cameron Dynasty? that was an empire was it not... I guess the Bosmer were the first to form an empire -'J

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:
      Draevan13 

      The Nord empire was before the Alessian Empire was formed, it expanded from Highrock to Morrowind... though come to think of it, wasn't the start of the 1st era the formation of the Cameron Dynasty? that was an empire was it not... I guess the Bosmer were the first to form an empire -'J

      I'm referring to the Cyrodiilic Empire.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Is that so. Well... wrote: 1) Ok, well if it meant that all the Dominion troops in Cyrodiil were destroyed, then why wouldn't it say that? Plus as I said before it was under the part titled The Battle of the Red Ring which is the batttle that took place in the Imperial City, and again that is one city within Cyrodiil. At least three other cities in Cyrodiil were garrisoned. 

      2) Secondly If the Dominion had indeed had indeed lost every soldier in Cyrodiil, which is actually impossible, then the Empire could have just turned around at any second and defeated them. The fact that the Empire would go to war with the Stormcloaks and help the Dominion's influence in Skyrim, along with the fact the Dominion has presence in Skyrim, still controls Valenwood and Elsweyr shows that either:

      a. The Dominion losses weren't as great as most believe.

      b. The Dominion has recovered significantly. 

      c. Both of the above.

      3) And no I don't think Titus was Omnipotent, he was just smart to realise that his people were suffering and the war needed to end. Of course many people think he betrayed the Empire and Talos for surrendering to the Dominion. However I think that he just didn't want to sentence his people to death and instead let each individual choose to worship Talos at their own risk.

      4) By the way the Dominion and Hammerfell actually kept fighting after the WGC so that's proof the Dominion still had strength left.

      1) They captured those three cities, but did it specifically say by how many troops they were garrisoned? For all we know they could have left a few dozen troops there just to keep the populace in check while the rest of the troops conquered the rest of Cyrodiil. You do not know how many were there so you cannot assume that huge armies were left there. All that we know is Lord Naarifin's army was the largest army in elven history and that he was in the Imperial City.

      2) I've already stated on numerous other threads and in this one in a few posts that the Empire didn't have the man power, the knowledge or the moral to invade the Dominion. They still had more troops than the Dominion, who for all we know had used all their troops in the Invasions of Cyrodiil ad Hammerfell(in which the Cyrodiil force was crippeled and the Hammerfell force suffered heavy losses). Evidence of just how weak the Dominion was is the fact that Hammerfell alone with the troops of the Crowns and the Forebears(already weakened by the Great War) were able to fight the "full" might of the Dominion to a standstill.

      3) He "surrendered" because as I've said numerous times the Empire was in no shape to continue fighting. Three legions had been completely destroyed and the rest only had half of its soldiers in fighting shape. The men were tired and low on moral. He couldn't continue, he knew this. This is why he agreed to the WGC, not because the Dominion was still a threat.

      4) The Dominion had conquered a big part of Southern Hammerfell during the Great War and Hammerfell was also weakened by the Great War. The fact that they were able to fight the Dominion to a standstill by themselves proves just how weak the Dominion's armies really where, as both their invasion forces suffered heavy losses in the Great War. One of the terms of the 2nd Treaty of Stros M'Kai is the full withdraw of Dominion forces from Hammerfell. The redguards basically won, they kicked the Dominion out of their province.

      1. No, it didn't specifically say how many were left there, so can not assume there were only handful that didn't go to the Imperial City, and why would they try to fit what you claim is the largest army in Elven history in the Imperial City. Furthermore a dozen troops would not keep the populace in check. Another thing is that the Dominion would not leave their lands defenceless.

      2. There is no evidence to suggest that the Empire had more troops. There is also no way that Hammerfell fought the full might of the Dominion. Also remember that defending is almost always easier than attacking. It's not like Hammerfell had the equivalent strength to all of the Dominion, instead Hammerfell would have just tried to put up enough resistance so the Dominion would think that the war was taking to long and therefore give up.

      3. Yeah, but if the Dominion wasn't a threat then therefore he wouldn't need to continue the war. Therefore, there is no need to end it via the WGC

      4. (See 2.)

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    • Kadawon01 wrote: This is why I hope she's the antagonist for ES6, she's easily hatable, and she's an actually interesting female antagonist. Which we need more of (protagonists as well in non rpgs).

      That would be great, we need better antagonists in TES. So far my favorite antagonist was Miraak, but if Elenwen is the next antagonist in TES6 she would become my favorite.

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote: @Draevan13 

      Don't forget the 1st Empire formed by the Nords, I know it was set up by ysgramor but i don't think he was declared the first emperor, can't recall off hand who it was

      Ysgramor started the Ysgramor Dynasty but in his time the Empire wasn't even an Empire, it was pretty small only consisting mainly of parts of Skyrim and Solstheim. Harald, the 13th in Ysgramor's line, was the first High King(having conquered most of Skyrim as we know it today) and his descendant Vrage was the one that expanded the Empire to the other provinces. He conquered High Rock, Morrowind and parts of Cyrodiil. And it was Gellir, a descendant of Vrage, that conquered many of the dwemer cities in Skyrim, which most likely includes Markarth.

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote: Draevan13 

      The Nord empire was before the Alessian Empire was formed, it expanded from Highrock to Morrowind... though come to think of it, wasn't the start of the 1st era the formation of the Cameron Dynasty? that was an empire was it not... I guess the Bosmer were the first to form an empire -'J

      The Camoran Dynasty, as far as I know, only had Valenwood in its Empire. That is a pretty small Empire.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote: 1. No, it didn't specifically say how many were left there, so can not assume there were only handful that didn't go to the Imperial City, and why would they try to fit what you claim is the largest army in Elven history in the Imperial City. Furthermore a dozen troops would not keep the populace in check. Another thing is that the Dominion would not leave their lands defenceless.

      2. There is no evidence to suggest that the Empire had more troops. There is also no way that Hammerfell fought the full might of the Dominion. Also remember that defending is almost always easier than attacking. It's not like Hammerfell had the equivalent strength to all of the Dominion, instead Hammerfell would have just tried to put up enough resistance so the Dominion would think that the war was taking to long and therefore give up.

      3. Yeah, but if the Dominion wasn't a threat then therefore he wouldn't need to continue the war. Therefore, there is no need to end it via the WGC

      4. (See 2.)

      1) In the Great War book it states that the Legion lead by General Jonna, as she was heading towards the Imperial City, was attacked by Dominion troops from Bravil and Skingrad. The Legion beat them relatively easily. So it means that the combined garrison of two of the conquered cities was much smaller than Jonna's Legion. So it is safe to assume that the combined garrison of all the other cities would not equal the number of troops of an Imperial Legion, meaning they are pretty small.

      1.5) The Imperial City is huge, it is about 4 times the size of any other Cyrodiilic city, at the very least. They can easily keep the army in there. And as for the Dominion protecting its land, the Empire wasn't attacking them so they were out of harm's way. It is safe to assume that most of the Dominion's forces were a part of the Invasions and that only a few troops were left in their home provinces.

      2) They did fight the "full"(In parenthesis because the Dominions armies are far from full) might of the Dominion. All available troops left from the invasion force in Cyrodiil, and possibly with reinforcements from home, were sent to fight the Redguards. As for how the war in Hammerfell was, the Dominion had conquered much of the south in the Great War, the redguards took it back. I wouldn't call that defense, I'd call that offense.

      3)Seriously, I've explained this like a billion times already to multiple people. Titus had no idea how many troops the Dominion still had left, for all he knows the Dominion could have another army just as large as Lord Naarifin's ready to invade Cyrodiil. He and the rest of the Empire wanted the war done with, but they didn't have the man power, the moral and the knowledge to invade the Dominion. So he opened negotiations with the Thalmor. The elves were suborn and didn't agree to anything less than the original terms they had proposed before the war. Titus reluctantly agreed because he had no other choice, it was either sign the damned thing or risk being invaded by another possible Dominion Army he had no idea about(since he had no idea what was going on inside the Dominion and how many troops they really had.)

      3.5) The Empire only lost 3 legions and the rest were at about half strength. We know the Empire had at one time 18 Legions, but we don't know exactly how many they had at the time of the Great War. It is safe to assume that they had less than 18 since they lost Summerset/Valenwood/Elsweyr/Black Marsh/Morrowind. But they still had around 12 since the Twelfth Legion appears in the book Lord of Souls. So lets say they had 12 Legions, after losing the 8th and two others they'd have 9 legions at about half strength. That is about the man power of about 5 Legions(5/12). Which is about 1/3 of their original strength.

      The Dominion had two invasion forces, the biggest one was in Cyrodiil to fight off the bulk of the Empire's forces. The force in Cyrodiil occupied 3 cities but also had part of their troops near Skingrad. 1/2 of the occupying force is much less than one Legion(as I stated above) so we can assume that the full garrison of the three cities plus the forces in Skingrad are about the strength of 1.5 legions. The force in Skingrad and Bravil were beaten by General Jonna's Legion so that means that the Dominion like had 1 Legion worth of troops in Cyrodiil left after the Battle of the Red Ring. The Hammerfell invasion force was smaller than the one in Cyrodiil, as that one was the largest Elven Army in History. It also suffered heavy loses, so it means that it had to have lost more than half its troops. Meaning that if the Hammerfell Invasion force was less than 6/12 of the Dominion's forces. Lets estimate around 5/12, half of 5 is 2,5 meaning that they must have lost more than that. So lets assume they lost 3/12 and are now at 2/12 of their strength, adding the Legion worth of troops from Cyrodiil(1/12) equals 3/12(1/4) of their original strength.

      So we can estimate that the Empire still had 1/3 of their original strength and that the Dominion had 1/4 of their invasion force left. Like you said it is possible they had more troops back home but we don't know how many, I'd assume not much. But not counting any possible reinforcements we can estimate that the Empire had at least 1 Legion worth of troops more than the remaining forces from the Dominion invasion force.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Also, I highly doubt the Empire is going to collapse, not entirely. After all, the Mede Empire is the fourth Human Empire. The Alessian, Reman and Septim Empires all rose and fell only to be replaced by a new Cyrodiilic Empire after a short while.

      Why couldnt it collapse? its not like the series needs the Empire in order to continue, tbh the Dominion could end up as the conquers of most of Tamriel,  if you got ride of the Thalmor and their genocidal ideas then the Dominion would honestly be no worse then the Empire, just ruled by High Elves instead of Imperials.

      As I stated before look at this Empire and look at Rome, its almost happening in the exact same way, so to think the writers are not intentionally making that comparison then your not opening your eyes enough. even how Tullius talks is how Romans acted towards the end, very uncaring about others cultures and customs, his vocal tone suggests hes tired and doesnt care anymore it has an "oh this is just another job for me to do" feel to it if you listen, he said hes put down so many rebellions implying that almost no one really wants to be part of the Empire, christ even Ulfric and Tullius' officer (Rikke) has more enthusiasim in their speeches compared to him.

      the signs are there, not to mention if that second great war is coming, now they have no Emperor so with the Civil War and no leader, if the Dominion end up striking within a month of the Games conclusion the Empire wont last too long, especially seeing as the Thalmor are no fools and learned from round one and always seem to have a plan and have no doubt been watching the events in Skyrim.

      also some factors to consider for the next war, they are no where near as strong as they were at the start of the first war, they had more provinces to support them (what is it now, i think just High ROck, Cyrodil and part of Skyrim?), a leader, and were not dealing with a civil war, while the Thalmor were able to grow and gain the Khajiit as allies.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      Why couldnt it collapse? its not like the series needs the Empire in order to continue, tbh the Dominion could end up as the conquers of most of Tamriel,  if you got ride of the Thalmor and their genocidal ideas then the Dominion would honestly be no worse then the Empire, just ruled by High Elves instead of Imperials.

      As I stated before look at this Empire and look at Rome, its almost happening in the exact same way, so to think the writers are not intentionally making that comparison then your not opening your eyes enough. even how Tullius talks is how Romans acted towards the end, very uncaring about others cultures and customs, his vocal tone suggests hes tired and doesnt care anymore it has an "oh this is just another job for me to do" feel to it if you listen, he said hes put down so many rebellions implying that almost no one really wants to be part of the Empire, christ even Ulfric and Tullius' officer (Rikke) has more enthusiasim in their speeches compared to him.

      the signs are there, not to mention if that second great war is coming, now they have no Emperor so with the Civil War and no leader, if the Dominion end up striking within a month of the Games conclusion the Empire wont last too long, especially seeing as the Thalmor are no fools and learned from round one and always seem to have a plan and have no doubt been watching the events in Skyrim.

      also some factors to consider for the next war, they are no where near as strong as they were at the start of the first war, they had more provinces to support them (what is it now, i think just High ROck, Cyrodil and part of Skyrim?), a leader, and were not dealing with a civil war, while the Thalmor were able to grow and gain the Khajiit as allies.

      Several reasons why I think the Empire won't entirely collapse:

      1) It's fallen and re-risen 3 times before. Your "Rome fell" point is moot, the Empire's already fallen several times, Rome only fell once. 

      2) The Empire has delt with similar strife, division and continent-spanning wars for thousands of years and never fully collapsed.

      3) The Empire has been a staple of the Elder Scrolls in every single game. While true, it's not an essential part, it's always been there for almost a dozen games.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      99.105.83.169 wrote:

      Why couldnt it collapse? its not like the series needs the Empire in order to continue, tbh the Dominion could end up as the conquers of most of Tamriel,  if you got ride of the Thalmor and their genocidal ideas then the Dominion would honestly be no worse then the Empire, just ruled by High Elves instead of Imperials.

      As I stated before look at this Empire and look at Rome, its almost happening in the exact same way, so to think the writers are not intentionally making that comparison then your not opening your eyes enough. even how Tullius talks is how Romans acted towards the end, very uncaring about others cultures and customs, his vocal tone suggests hes tired and doesnt care anymore it has an "oh this is just another job for me to do" feel to it if you listen, he said hes put down so many rebellions implying that almost no one really wants to be part of the Empire, christ even Ulfric and Tullius' officer (Rikke) has more enthusiasim in their speeches compared to him.

      the signs are there, not to mention if that second great war is coming, now they have no Emperor so with the Civil War and no leader, if the Dominion end up striking within a month of the Games conclusion the Empire wont last too long, especially seeing as the Thalmor are no fools and learned from round one and always seem to have a plan and have no doubt been watching the events in Skyrim.

      also some factors to consider for the next war, they are no where near as strong as they were at the start of the first war, they had more provinces to support them (what is it now, i think just High ROck, Cyrodil and part of Skyrim?), a leader, and were not dealing with a civil war, while the Thalmor were able to grow and gain the Khajiit as allies.

      Several reasons why I think the Empire won't entirely collapse:

      1) It's fallen and re-risen 3 times before. Your "Rome fell" point is moot, the Empire's already fallen several times, Rome only fell once. 

      2) The Empire has delt with similar strife, division and continent-spanning wars for thousands of years and never fully collapsed.

      3) The Empire has been a staple of the Elder Scrolls in every single game. While true, it's not an essential part, it's always been there for almost a dozen games.

      1) yeas it has fallen multiple times, but the Last time Rome Fell it became a Cristian Empire, The Holy Roman Empire, they believe in a God that was once man.... sound familiar -'J

      2) No, but Even Talos questioned how long it coud stat together, he even said maybe people should try something different.

      3)Yes the empire has been a staple of TES games, but so was Uriel Septim IV, and they killed him off in Oblivion, he was the thing holding the empire together.

      4) the Empire's purpose was to keep the evil of Oblivion forever at bay, it's purpose was fulfilled by Martin Septim

      ~It's unseemly to cling to something past it's usefulness -'J

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:

      1) yeas it has fallen multiple times, but the Last time Rome Fell it became a Cristian Empire, The Holy Roman Empire, they believe in a God that was once man.... sound familiar -'J

      2) No, but Even Talos questioned how long it coud stat together, he even said maybe people should try something different.

      3)Yes the empire has been a staple of TES games, but so was Uriel Septim IV, and they killed him off in Oblivion, he was the thing holding the empire together.

      4) the Empire's purpose was to keep the evil of Oblivion forever at bay, it's purpose was fulfilled by Martin Septim

      ~It's unseemly to cling to something past it's usefulness -'J

      1) No, Rome became the Byzantine Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was founded by Barbarossa, who had nothing to do with Rome. The city of Rome wasn't even in the Holy Roman Empire. And if you're suggesting that a Stormcloak Empire will unite Tamriel, that is a laughable idea. No way in hell the Dunmer or Argonians will join them.

      2) Talos' Empire is long gone by the events of Skyrim. The Mede Empire is already something different.

      3) *Uriel Septim VII. It was the Septim Dynasty holding the Septim Empire together, not Uriel himself. Martin, had he lived, could have easily held it together.

      4) When something is broken, you try to fix it first. Throwing it away at the first sign of trouble is wasteful. And the unity of all races and creeds will NEVER "outlive its usefullness". Mede was the problem, and he gone now.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:

      1) yeas it has fallen multiple times, but the Last time Rome Fell it became a Cristian Empire, The Holy Roman Empire, they believe in a God that was once man.... sound familiar -'J

      2) No, but Even Talos questioned how long it coud stat together, he even said maybe people should try something different.

      3)Yes the empire has been a staple of TES games, but so was Uriel Septim IV, and they killed him off in Oblivion, he was the thing holding the empire together.

      4) the Empire's purpose was to keep the evil of Oblivion forever at bay, it's purpose was fulfilled by Martin Septim

      ~It's unseemly to cling to something past it's usefulness -'J

      1) No, Rome became the Byzantine Empire. The Holy Roman Empire was founded by Barbarossa, who had nothing to do with Rome. The city of Rome wasn't even in the Holy Roman Empire. And if you're suggesting that a Stormcloak Empire will unite Tamriel, that is a laughable idea. No way in hell the Dunmer or Argonians will join them.

      2) Talos' Empire is long gone by the events of Skyrim. The Mede Empire is already something different.

      3) *Uriel Septim VII. It was the Septim Dynasty holding the Septim Empire together, not Uriel himself. Martin, had he lived, could have easily held it together.

      4) When something is broken, you try to fix it first. Throwing it away at the first sign of trouble is wasteful. And the unity of all races and creeds will NEVER "outlive its usefullness". Mede was the problem, and he gone now.

      1) No the Byzantine Empire, formally known as the Eastern Roman Empire, was independent from the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire split into two different empires, with the West keeping Rome as the capital and the east keeping Constantinople as the capital. After the Roman Empire fell the city was ruled by the church, the church was the one that proclaimed the Germanic Empire as the Holy Roman Empire, making them the successor of the Roman Empire.

      1.5) The Nords can unite with the Dunmer and Argonians as they've done before. Though allying with the argonians would be hard as they still have problems with the dunmer. But the Nords and the Dunmer are in a relative friendly relationship. Remember the Red year? It was the Nords that helped the Dunmer through it by giving them Solstheim. But it will all come down to the Dominion, if they show signs of aggression against Morrowind or Black Marsh then an alliance between the Nords/Dunmer/Argonians is almost assured. Remember the Ebonheart Pack.

      2) No, the Septim Empire and the Mede Empire are one and the same. What is gone is the Septim Dynasty, which got replaced by the Mede Dynasty. It is still the same Empire, but smaller.

      3) Depends, had Martin been a bad Emperor(bad as bad at his job) it would still have fallen. Besides the Thalmor would probably still have succeeded from the Empire and recreated the Aldmeri Dominion even if Martin was still alive.

      4) The Empire's purpose was to end the chaos that Tamriel was going through in the Interregnum. Keeping the doors to oblivion at bay is the purpose of a dragon-blooded person lighting the dragonfires. I don't think they necessarily needed to have that dragon-blooded person be the Emperor of Tamriel. As evidence of the fact that in the Alessian Empire they didn't rule all of Tamriel, as two other Empires were present at that time(Nordic and Camoran).

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    • Unity is necessary to keep peace in Tamriel, but an Empire isn't necessary. They could change things up and have a sort of UN in Tamriel.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      1) No the Byzantine Empire, formally known as the Eastern Roman Empire, was independent from the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire split into two different empires, with the West keeping Rome as the capital and the east keeping Constantinople as the capital. After the Roman Empire fell the city was ruled by the church, the church was the one that proclaimed the Germanic Empire as the Holy Roman Empire, making them the successor of the Roman Empire.

      1.5) The Nords can unite with the Dunmer and Argonians as they've done before. Though allying with the argonians would be hard as they still have problems with the dunmer. But the Nords and the Dunmer are in a relative friendly relationship. Remember the Red year? It was the Nords that helped the Dunmer through it by giving them Solstheim. But it will all come down to the Dominion, if they show signs of aggression against Morrowind or Black Marsh then an alliance between the Nords/Dunmer/Argonians is almost assured. Remember the Ebonheart Pack.

      2) No, the Septim Empire and the Mede Empire are one and the same. What is gone is the Septim Dynasty, which got replaced by the Mede Dynasty. It is still the same Empire, but smaller.

      3) Depends, had Martin been a bad Emperor(bad as bad at his job) it would still have fallen. Besides the Thalmor would probably still have succeeded from the Empire and recreated the Aldmeri Dominion even if Martin was still alive.

      4) The Empire's purpose was to end the chaos that Tamriel was going through in the Interregnum. Keeping the doors to oblivion at bay is the purpose of a dragon-blooded person lighting the dragonfires. I don't think they necessarily needed to have that dragon-blooded person be the Emperor of Tamriel. As evidence of the fact that in the Alessian Empire they didn't rule all of Tamriel, as two other Empires were present at that time(Nordic and Camoran).

      1) That's what I said, the Roman/Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire were two different empires. All they had in common was the name.

      1.5) I'm not saying the NORDS couldn't ally with the Dunmer and Argonians, Harold. I'm saying the STORMCLOAKS couldn't. Look at how Dunmer and Argonians are treated in Windhelm. Do you really think they'll want to join the Stormcloaks? Not a chance.

      2) If you want to believe that, fine. I don't, since they're different in virtually every way. Just like the Reman Empire was different from the Alessian Empire and the Septim Empire from the Reman.

      3) Oh for sure, the Dominion rising again was innevitable. But I have no doubt that Martin could have kept the Argonians and Dunmer from seceeding, and with them on their side the Dominion would have been crushed in the Great War.

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      Unity is necessary to keep peace in Tamriel, but an Empire isn't necessary. They could change things up and have a sort of UN in Tamriel.

      Bethesda won't do that. It's a medieval fantasy RPG, they won't add modern politics into it.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      1) No the Byzantine Empire, formally known as the Eastern Roman Empire, was independent from the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire split into two different empires, with the West keeping Rome as the capital and the east keeping Constantinople as the capital. After the Roman Empire fell the city was ruled by the church, the church was the one that proclaimed the Germanic Empire as the Holy Roman Empire, making them the successor of the Roman Empire.

      1.5) The Nords can unite with the Dunmer and Argonians as they've done before. Though allying with the argonians would be hard as they still have problems with the dunmer. But the Nords and the Dunmer are in a relative friendly relationship. Remember the Red year? It was the Nords that helped the Dunmer through it by giving them Solstheim. But it will all come down to the Dominion, if they show signs of aggression against Morrowind or Black Marsh then an alliance between the Nords/Dunmer/Argonians is almost assured. Remember the Ebonheart Pack.

      2) No, the Septim Empire and the Mede Empire are one and the same. What is gone is the Septim Dynasty, which got replaced by the Mede Dynasty. It is still the same Empire, but smaller.

      3) Depends, had Martin been a bad Emperor(bad as bad at his job) it would still have fallen. Besides the Thalmor would probably still have succeeded from the Empire and recreated the Aldmeri Dominion even if Martin was still alive.

      4) The Empire's purpose was to end the chaos that Tamriel was going through in the Interregnum. Keeping the doors to oblivion at bay is the purpose of a dragon-blooded person lighting the dragonfires. I don't think they necessarily needed to have that dragon-blooded person be the Emperor of Tamriel. As evidence of the fact that in the Alessian Empire they didn't rule all of Tamriel, as two other Empires were present at that time(Nordic and Camoran).

      1) That's what I said, the Roman/Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire were two different empires. All they had in common was the name.

      1.5) I'm not saying the NORDS couldn't ally with the Dunmer and Argonians, Harold. I'm saying the STORMCLOAKS couldn't. Look at how Dunmer and Argonians are treated in Windhelm. Do you really think they'll want to join the Stormcloaks? Not a chance.

      2) If you want to believe that, fine. I don't, since they're different in virtually every way. Just like the Reman Empire was different from the Alessian Empire and the Septim Empire from the Reman.

      3) Oh for sure, the Dominion rising again was innevitable. But I have no doubt that Martin could have kept the Argonians and Dunmer from seceeding, and with them on their side the Dominion would have been crushed in the Great War.


      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      Unity is necessary to keep peace in Tamriel, but an Empire isn't necessary. They could change things up and have a sort of UN in Tamriel.
      Bethesda won't do that. It's a medieval fantasy RPG, they won't add modern politics into it.

      Actually, just correcting you on one thing. Tamriel isn't based on the Middle Ages, it's solely fantasy. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:

      Actually, just correcting you on one thing. Tamriel isn't based on the Middle Ages, it's solely fantasy. 

      By "medieval fantasy", I mean fantasy with castles, knights, wizards and the like. There are other fantasies set in more modern times as well.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: 1) That's what I said, the Roman/Byzantine Empire and the Holy Roman Empire were two different empires. All they had in common was the name.

      1.5) I'm not saying the NORDS couldn't ally with the Dunmer and Argonians, Harold. I'm saying the STORMCLOAKS couldn't. Look at how Dunmer and Argonians are treated in Windhelm. Do you really think they'll want to join the Stormcloaks? Not a chance.

      2) If you want to believe that, fine. I don't, since they're different in virtually every way. Just like the Reman Empire was different from the Alessian Empire and the Septim Empire from the Reman.

      3) Oh for sure, the Dominion rising again was innevitable. But I have no doubt that Martin could have kept the Argonians and Dunmer from seceeding, and with them on their side the Dominion would have been crushed in the Great War.

      1) I don't think you understood what I said. The Byzantine Empire was not the same Empire as the Roman Empire, neither was it its successor. The Holy Roman Empire was the successor Empire of the Roman Empire.

      1.5) Before the Nords and the Dunmer joined forces to form the Ebonheart Pact with the Argonians they were at war. The Argonians also hated the Dunmer, just like they still do now. It was a common foe, at that time the Akaviri, that brought them together. Like I said, if the Dominion proves to be a threat to Morrowind or Black Marsh then an alliance is almost certain. As for the Stormcloaks, let me remind you that they are friendly to House Redoran, of which they share much in common. So like I said an alliance with the Dunmer isn't farfetched, what would be difficult is an alliance with the argonians.

      2) Its not a matter of belief, its a matter of fact. After Martin died there was a regency and then a war of succession, which ended when Titus Mede took the ruby throne. The Septim Empire didn't collapse, it never ended, the Septim Dynasty ended. This is just like in the Reman Empire, after the Reman Dynasty fell the Akaviri Pontate took over. The Reman Empire didn't fall when the last of the Reman Dynasty died, it fell when the last Pontate died. After that then the Interregnum started and the events of ESO. IRL most Empires when through quite a few Dynasty changes. An Empire doesn't end when one Dynasty dies, it ends when it falls apart and crumbles.

      3) Correction, the Dunmer and the Argonians succeeded during/immediately after the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire pulled most their forces to Cyrodiil and left the other provinces relatively defenseless. In Morrowind it was House Redoran that lead the Dunmer against the Daedra, in Black Marsh it was the An-Xileel, in Summerset Isles it was the Thalmor.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      Zippertrain85 wrote:

      Actually, just correcting you on one thing. Tamriel isn't based on the Middle Ages, it's solely fantasy. 

      By "medieval fantasy", I mean fantasy with castles, knights, wizards and the like. There are other fantasies set in more modern times as well.

      Oh, I understand now. Alright, you can get back to your debate. :) 

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    • Tamriel's based on many different governments. Jarls, Emporers, and High Kings all existed if I'm correct. I'm pretty sure that Jarl's existed, but I'm certain on the others. xD It's very based on the middle ages

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    • Just adding, I agree with Draevan. But I see Harold's reason for joining the Stormcloaks. Hopefully the next ES game doesn't kill us with this. Though we'll probably have no closure on the civil war.

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    • Kadawon01 wrote:
      Tamriel's based on many different governments. Jarls, Emporers, and High Kings all existed if I'm correct. I'm pretty sure that Jarl's existed, but I'm certain on the others. xD It's very based on the middle ages

      (I actually made a blog explaining this. But let's get back on topic.) 

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      Unity is necessary to keep peace in Tamriel, but an Empire isn't necessary. They could change things up and have a sort of UN in Tamriel.

      Bethesda won't do that. It's a medieval fantasy RPG, they won't add modern politics into it.

      There already are more modern aspects in Tamriel. For one there is Steam Power, automatons, there are also female warriors and rulers, a rare(almost inexistent) thing in the middle ages, to name a few.

      Another thing is that the Elder Council could serve this purpose. Any kind of council or assembly could serve this purpose.

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    • Kadawon01 wrote: Just adding, I agree with Draevan. But I see Harold's reason for joining the Stormcloaks. Hopefully the next ES game doesn't kill us with this. Though we'll probably have no closure on the civil war.

      That is to be expected of Bethesda. They will push the Civil War under the rug.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      1) I don't think you understood what I said. The Byzantine Empire was not the same Empire as the Roman Empire, neither was it its successor. The Holy Roman Empire was the successor Empire of the Roman Empire.

      1.5) Before the Nords and the Dunmer joined forces to form the Ebonheart Pact with the Argonians they were at war. The Argonians also hated the Dunmer, just like they still do now. It was a common foe, at that time the Akaviri, that brought them together. Like I said, if the Dominion proves to be a threat to Morrowind or Black Marsh then an alliance is almost certain. As for the Stormcloaks, let me remind you that they are friendly to House Redoran, of which they share much in common. So like I said an alliance with the Dunmer isn't farfetched, what would be difficult is an alliance with the argonians.

      2) Its not a matter of belief, its a matter of fact. After Martin died there was a regency and then a war of succession, which ended when Titus Mede took the ruby throne. The Septim Empire didn't collapse, it never ended, the Septim Dynasty ended. This is just like in the Reman Empire, after the Reman Dynasty fell the Akaviri Pontate took over. The Reman Empire didn't fall when the last of the Reman Dynasty died, it fell when the last Pontate died. After that then the Interregnum started and the events of ESO. IRL most Empires when through quite a few Dynasty changes. An Empire doesn't end when one Dynasty dies, it ends when it falls apart and crumbles.

      3) Correction, the Dunmer and the Argonians succeeded during/immediately after the Oblivion Crisis. The Empire pulled most their forces to Cyrodiil and left the other provinces relatively defenseless. In Morrowind it was House Redoran that lead the Dunmer against the Daedra, in Black Marsh it was the An-Xileel, in Summerset Isles it was the Thalmor.

      1) You're not understanding me. I'm not saying the Nords couldn't ally with them. I'm saying the STORMCLOAKS couldn't based on how they treat the Dunmer and Argonians. And where in the game do you see Stormcloaks and Redoran being friendly? I've never seen that.

      2) I consider an Empire changed when its name and dynasty changes and it starts acting completely different than before.

      3) I know, I'm saying it's highly likely Martin could have stopped Black Marsh and Morrowind seceeding.

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      There already are more modern aspects in Tamriel. For one there is Steam Power, automatons, there are also female warriors and rulers, a rare(almost inexistent) thing in the middle ages, to name a few.

      Another thing is that the Elder Council could serve this purpose. Any kind of council or assembly could serve this purpose.

      Steam power only exists in Dwemer ruins, its not widespread. The female warriors and rulers is more likely for the "play any way you want" aspect Bethesda tries to cultivate with TES, also to prevent any accusations of sexism.

      The Elder Council doesn't really have any power, though. The Emperor/Empress has always done pretty much done whatever they pleased.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: 1) You're not understanding me. I'm not saying the Nords couldn't ally with them. I'm saying the STORMCLOAKS couldn't based on how they treat the Dunmer and Argonians. And where in the game do you see Stormcloaks and Redoran being friendly? I've never seen that.

      2) I consider an Empire changed when its name and dynasty changes and it starts acting completely different than before.

      3) I know, I'm saying it's highly likely Martin could have stopped Black Marsh and Morrowind seceeding.

      1) The Stormcloaks trade with House Redoran, they are the reason that Raven Rock hasn't fallen yet. An you my friend are not understanding me. The Nords and the Dunmer have never gotten along, just like the Dunmer and the Argonians have never gotten along. Now they are in better relations than in the last time that they allied with them. As I've told you all that needs to happen for the three to team up of for the Dominion to threaten Black Marsh and Morrowind.

      2) As I've said it isn't a matter of considering or believing. It is a matter of fact. Do we consider the Roman Empire a different one each time they switch Dynasties or start acting differently? No, it is still the same Roman Empire all the way through until it finally fell after the barbarians took Rome. The fact is that the "Mede Empire" is the same as the Septim Empire. But you can believe what you want to believe it will not ,however ,make it true, just like I can believe the earth is flat.

      3) Unlikely since the damage was done when the Empire abandoned them to the Daedra. They were pissed at the Empire, it would take a lot to keep them in the Empire after that. Martin would have to basically bend over backwards for them to keep them from leaving.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      2) I consider an Empire changed when its name and dynasty changes and it starts acting completely different than before.

      3) I know, I'm saying it's highly likely Martin could have stopped Black Marsh and Morrowind seceeding.

      What you consider to be a different Empire and what is factually a different Empire are 2 different things, Harold is right, when a Dynasty dies the empire gets a new leader and they start another dynasty (if they can), its still the same empire but under a different ruler. The United States acts completely different then before and is no longer lead by founding fathers so should they change their name to the "Western Bureaucracy Nation that cant get anything done"?

      and thats highly debateable...there is nothing to go on that states he could have held them in the Empire, what just because his last name is "Septim"?. for all we know he could have suffered bouts of madness and depression after seeing his friends murdered by what are essentially demons and been a god awful ruler. he was a good warrior and a brave person but brave and combat worthy are not what make great emperors/rulers, look at Medes they were great warriors but they have been crappy rulers

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      There already are more modern aspects in Tamriel. For one there is Steam Power, automatons, there are also female warriors and rulers, a rare(almost inexistent) thing in the middle ages, to name a few.

      Another thing is that the Elder Council could serve this purpose. Any kind of council or assembly could serve this purpose.

      Steam power only exists in Dwemer ruins, its not widespread. The female warriors and rulers is more likely for the "play any way you want" aspect Bethesda tries to cultivate with TES, also to prevent any accusations of sexism.

      The Elder Council doesn't really have any power, though. The Emperor/Empress has always done pretty much done whatever they pleased.

      True but nevertheless those are modern values and technology in a medieval fantasy setting.

      As for the Elder Council, they have the Legislative power. But I'm proposing turning the Elder Council into something similar to the UN, not keeping it the way it is. That was there will still be peace in Tamriel with the added bonus of each province being independent.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      1) The Stormcloaks trade with House Redoran, they are the reason that Raven Rock hasn't fallen yet. An you my friend are not understanding me. The Nords and the Dunmer have never gotten along, just like the Dunmer and the Argonians have never gotten along. Now they are in better relations than in the last time that they allied with them. As I've told you all that needs to happen for the three to team up of for the Dominion to threaten Black Marsh and Morrowind.

      2) As I've said it isn't a matter of considering or believing. It is a matter of fact. Do we consider the Roman Empire a different one each time they switch Dynasties or start acting differently? No, it is still the same Roman Empire all the way through until it finally fell after the barbarians took Rome. The fact is that the "Mede Empire" is the same as the Septim Empire. But you can believe what you want to believe it will not ,however ,make it true, just like I can believe the earth is flat.

      3) Unlikely since the damage was done when the Empire abandoned them to the Daedra. They were pissed at the Empire, it would take a lot to keep them in the Empire after that. Martin would have to basically bend over backwards for them to keep them from leaving.

      1) No, the East Empire Trading Company is trading with Raven Rock, not Ulfric. Gjalund even says the EETC raised their tarifs on his goods when you arrive on Solstheim and he starts talking with Adril Arano.

      Also, the Dunmer/Nords/Argonians have only ever worked together when threatened by a common foe. The Thalmor want to exterminate humanity, not the Dunmer. They've not done anything regarding the Argonians, either.

      2) The Roman Empire acted practically the same throughout its history, whereas the Mede Empire is not acting at all like the Septim Empire in any way, shape or form. Also, my opinion differing from yours is not at all the same as me saying the earth is flat. It's very arrogant of you to think so.

      3) He still would have found a way. The Septims were good at holding the provinces together.

      99.105.83.169 wrote:

      What just because his last name is "Septim"?

      No, because of his actions. He was brave and intelligent, he acted heroically and selflessly. THAT is why I think he could have done it.

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    • Which is why I've said that what needs to happen is the Dominion threated Morrowind and Black Marsh in order for them to have a common foe. As for not threatening them, yes they are the dunmer and argonians just don't know it yet. Remember the Thalmor's plan, yeah that plan causes the destruction of Nirn.

      2) Yes it is the same, as like I've said it is not about opinion it is about facts. The fact is that the "Mede Empire" is just another Dynasty of the Septim Empire, which should now be called the Third Imperial Empire. That is fact not an opinion. Which is why I used the comparison to the earth. The fact is that the Earth is a geode and what you are doing is saying that the Earth is flat.

      (I will continue later, have to leave can't finish now.)

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      Which is why I've said that what needs to happen is the Dominion threated Morrowind and Black Marsh in order for them to have a common foe. As for not threatening them, yes they are the dunmer and argonians just don't know it yet. Remember the Thalmor's plan, yeah that plan causes the destruction of Nirn.

      2) Yes it is the same, as like I've said it is not about opinion it is about facts. The fact is that the "Mede Empire" is just another Dynasty of the Septim Empire, which should now be called the Third Imperial Empire. That is fact not an opinion. Which is why I used the comparison to the earth. The fact is that the Earth is a geode and what you are doing is saying that the Earth is flat.

      (I will continue later, have to leave can't finish now.)

      Whatever the Dominion is, they aren't stupid. They won't move against the Dunmer and Argonians until humanity is defeated. Plus, Ulfric can't exactly tell them "Oh by the way the Thalmor want to destroy Nirn so we'd better team up" since no one in Tamriel knows their endgame yet. We players do, but not them.

      No, it's not a fact. If the only thing you have in common with something is the name, it's not the same thing. What you are saying is the equivalent of saying I'm the same person as my father, even though the only thing we have in common is our name. Just as the Mede Empire only shares the name "Third Empire" with the Septim Empire.

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    • There is no reason to view the Mede empire as an continuation of the true Dragonblood Septim Empire, except maybe being obtuse.

      The Mede's are a family of Colovian warlords who threathened the Capital with destruction in order to force Council to declare Titus I emperor.

      Their line is illegitimate, and has no legal nor moral authority.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      No, because of his actions. He was brave and intelligent, he acted heroically and selflessly. THAT is why I think he could have done it.

      that doesnt show anything about what he could have been as an emperor though. again brave/heroic does not mean you will be a great leader. look at Star Wars as another fantasy example, the Emperor was evil and cruel and manipulative but he was a great Emperor even though he ruled with Sith teachings, he achieved his goal of galactic domination and unifed the systems into a single force, the Imperials that came after him were much more kind, supportive of their clones/conscripts, and not purely evil and did heroic acts as well but they couldnt hold the Empire together worth a damn.


      and (sorry everytime i try and do multiple quotes it erases my paragraphs)

      "2) The Roman Empire acted practically the same throughout its history, whereas the Mede Empire is not acting at all like the Septim Empire in any way, shape or form. Also, my opinion differing from yours is not at all the same as me saying the earth is flat. It's very arrogant of you to think so."

      no it did not, the Emperors were very different people. are you saying Augustus acted the same as Caligula? The Roman Empire was the same empire through history no matter if it acted differently, if it recruited barbarians or latin men as troops, if it crucified en mass in some regionsor showed favortism to others, it had many different faces but was a Roman one non the less. You dont hear people saying "The Casaer Empire" and the "Trajan Empire". You Hear of the Byzantine Empire because the Roman Empire fell. Only reason you hear that in ES is because the previous Empires fell at some point. How is the Septim Empire completely different from the "Mede Empire"? when did the EMpire completely collapse and get destroyed and the Medes rebuilt it? because if that didnt happen its the same Third/Septim Empire, just in a weakened state

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      There is no reason to view the Mede empire as an continuation of the true Dragonblood Septim Empire, except maybe being obtuse.

      The Mede's are a family of Colovian warlords who threathened the Capital with destruction in order to force Council to declare Titus I emperor.

      Their line is illegitimate, and has no legal nor moral authority.

      Thats true it doesnt act the same but again, that has happened to real life empires in the past, Trajan was a general with no connection to the Royal line of Latin rulers and he took control of Rome but it was still called "The ROman Empire" not "The Trajan Roman EMpire or The Trajan Empire". it could only be seen as another different empire if The Septim Empire completely collapsed, like if idk (hypothetical), Morrowind invaded the capital and saked it then saked Skyrim and High Rock said screw it we quit, if the Medes rebuilt Cyrodil and retook High Rock and Skyrim, THEN it would be a different Empire completely

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      1) that doesnt show anything about what he could have been as an emperor though. again brave/heroic does not mean you will be a great leader. look at Star Wars as another fantasy example, the Emperor was evil and cruel and manipulative but he was a great Emperor even though he ruled with Sith teachings, he achieved his goal of galactic domination and unifed the systems into a single force, the Imperials that came after him were much more kind, supportive of their clones/conscripts, and not purely evil and did heroic acts as well but they couldnt hold the Empire together worth a damn.


      and (sorry everytime i try and do multiple quotes it erases my paragraphs)

      "2) The Roman Empire acted practically the same throughout its history, whereas the Mede Empire is not acting at all like the Septim Empire in any way, shape or form. Also, my opinion differing from yours is not at all the same as me saying the earth is flat. It's very arrogant of you to think so."

      no it did not, the Emperors were very different people. are you saying Augustus acted the same as Caligula? The Roman Empire was the same empire through history no matter if it acted differently, if it recruited barbarians or latin men as troops, if it crucified en mass in some regionsor showed favortism to others, it had many different faces but was a Roman one non the less. You dont hear people saying "The Casaer Empire" and the "Trajan Empire". You Hear of the Byzantine Empire because the Roman Empire fell. Only reason you hear that in ES is because the previous Empires fell at some point. How is the Septim Empire completely different from the "Mede Empire"? when did the EMpire completely collapse and get destroyed and the Medes rebuilt it? because if that didnt happen its the same Third/Septim Empire, just in a weakened state

      1) Except Martin was not cruel or evil like Sidious was. Martin was kind, he was intelligent, he was patient, he was brave, he acted selflessly. What more do you want in a good Emperor?

      2) The individuals of the Roman Empire were different, but as a whole is changed very little throughout its history.

      3) How is the Mede Empire is nothing at all like the Septim Empire, you ask?

      a) It utterly failed to contain the Thalmor, despite knowing it was a threat decades before the Great War started.

      b) It is illegitimate. Whereas the Septims were blessed/chosen by Akatosh through their dragon blood, Titus Mede I took the throne by force.

      c) It abandoned Hammerfell to the Dominion.

      d) It outlawed Talos worship.

      I could go on, but these four reasons are more than enough. The Mede Empire is NOTHING like the Septim Empire.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      Thats true it doesnt act the same but again, that has happened to real life empires in the past, Trajan was a general with no connection to the Royal line of Latin rulers and he took control of Rome but it was still called "The ROman Empire" not "The Trajan Roman EMpire or The Trajan Empire". it could only be seen as another different empire if The Septim Empire completely collapsed, like if idk (hypothetical), Morrowind invaded the capital and saked it then saked Skyrim and High Rock said screw it we quit, if the Medes rebuilt Cyrodil and retook High Rock and Skyrim, THEN it would be a different Empire completely

      It seems more like saying that the germanic tribes that took the Roman Capital at times were a continuation of the Roman Empire just cause they set up shop in Rome.


      And Caligula wasn't that bad as Roman Emperors go, bad by our standards of course but not quite the monster his enemies at the time made him out to be in the history books.


      Like how the Romans made the Vandals out the be...

      Well vandals thereby giving us the word, when they no more were so than any other group at the time and were infact significantly less so than some.

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    • ^ 1. again, your saying how kind, brave and heroic martin was, but that doesnt mean a thing. my older brother served in Iraq and all the people under him like him and say how hes a good comander and cared for the convoys he was protecting, does that make him a good candidate for president? Martin never got to run an empire, he had to be hidden from Daedra, he only seemed intelligent because he knew about the enemy he was fighting because he was a Daedric priest at one point, and he faught and eventually died when he summoned Akatosh.


      2/3. it changed policies, that doesnt make it a different Empire. i think you need to open a history book if you think policy changes make an empire. Empires rule until they collapse. Unless I read the lore books wrong and the DOminion completely destroyed all the provinces of the EMpire and the Mede's retook Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfall and rebuilt Cyrodil prior to the Great War then no its the same Empire because it never collapsed

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    • just because its smaller, weaker and more corrupt doesnt mean its a different Empire, its just another Dynasty ruling it (if you meant Dynasty the whole time and not Empire then my bad lol)

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    • 80.216.220.71 wrote:
      99.105.83.169 wrote:

      Thats true it doesnt act the same but again, that has happened to real life empires in the past, Trajan was a general with no connection to the Royal line of Latin rulers and he took control of Rome but it was still called "The ROman Empire" not "The Trajan Roman EMpire or The Trajan Empire". it could only be seen as another different empire if The Septim Empire completely collapsed, like if idk (hypothetical), Morrowind invaded the capital and saked it then saked Skyrim and High Rock said screw it we quit, if the Medes rebuilt Cyrodil and retook High Rock and Skyrim, THEN it would be a different Empire completely

      It seems more like saying that the germanic tribes that took the Roman Capital at times were a continuation of the Roman Empire just cause they set up shop in Rome.


      no Trajan wasnt a germanic barbarian, he was a roman general with no connection to the Imperial bloodline, that was my point, he took over and was more practical but they didnt change the Empire's name from "ROman Empire" to "Trajan Empire"

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:
      ^ 1. again, your saying how kind, brave and heroic martin was, but that doesnt mean a thing. my older brother served in Iraq and all the people under him like him and say how hes a good comander and cared for the convoys he was protecting, does that make him a good candidate for president? Martin never got to run an empire, he had to be hidden from Daedra, he only seemed intelligent because he knew about the enemy he was fighting because he was a Daedric priest at one point, and he faught and eventually died when he summoned Akatosh.


      2/3. it changed policies, that doesnt make it a different Empire. i think you need to open a history book if you think policy changes make an empire. Empires rule until they collapse. Unless I read the lore books wrong and the DOminion completely destroyed all the provinces of the EMpire and the Mede's retook Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfall and rebuilt Cyrodil prior to the Great War then no its the same Empire because it never collapsed

      1) If intelligence, kindess, patience and selflessness aren't enough for a good ruler in your eyes, I don't know what is. Everything we know about him from Oblivion show he'd be a great ruler. Even Ocato and Jauffre thought he would be.

      2) The Mede Empire changed its way of ruling, changed dynasties, changed its name and is not chosen by Akatosh. It didn't just "change policy".

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    • ^ really? it still had an Emperor, same way of ruling via a Monarchy.

      yes it changed DYNASTIES!!! thats the thing its a diffeent dynasty thats ruling its not a different empire its the remnants of the Septim/Third Empire but its not a completely different Empire, just a different ruling family, that happens sooooo many times in history!!! 

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      no Trajan wasnt a germanic barbarian, he was a roman general with no connection to the Imperial bloodline, that was my point, he took over and was more practical but they didnt change the Empire's name from "ROman Empire" to "Trajan Empire"

      What I mean is that the situations don't compare, not that Trajan was a barbarian.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:
      ^ really? it still had an Emperor, same way of ruling via a Monarchy.

      yes it changed DYNASTIES!!! thats the thing its a diffeent dynasty thats ruling its not a different empire its the remnants of the Septim/Third Empire but its not a completely different Empire, just a different ruling family, that happens sooooo many times in history!!! 

      1) I never denied he would have been an Emperor. 

      2) It was more than a dynasty change. 

      -The Septim Empire: Dragonborn chosen by Akatosh. They unite all of Tamriel, usher in centuries of peace and permanently seal Mundus off from any Oblivion invasion. Their founder is so great he becomes a God.

      -The Mede Empire: Colovian warlords, not chosen by Akatosh. They ignore clear and present threats, abandon their closest allies to the Dominion and outlaw Talos worship.

      The Mede Empire is not the same as their predecessors in any way, shape or form.

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote:

      2/3. it changed policies, that doesnt make it a different Empire. i think you need to open a history book if you think policy changes make an empire. Empires rule until they collapse. Unless I read the lore books wrong and the DOminion completely destroyed all the provinces of the EMpire and the Mede's retook Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfall and rebuilt Cyrodil prior to the Great War then no its the same Empire because it never collapsed

      For all intents and purposes the Septim Empire DID collapse when Martin died.

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    • Guys, this forum is getting way off topic. Would you like me to make another forum about how good an Emperor Martin was? 

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    • That's becoming your catchphrase...

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Guys, this forum is getting way off topic. Would you like me to make another forum about how good an Emperor Martin was? 

      More accurately, how good he would have been, since he was never crowned. But if he/she's done discussing it, I'll stop too.

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    • Kadawon01 wrote:
      That's becoming your catchphrase...

      What?

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    • "Would you like me to make another thread..."

      I've seen this post 3 times on this thread.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      3) He still would have found a way. The Septims were good at holding the provinces together.

      99.105.83.169 wrote:

      What just because his last name is "Septim"?

      No, because of his actions. He was brave and intelligent, he acted heroically and selflessly. THAT is why I think he could have done it.

      Those traits are admirable and from what we could tell in Oblivion he was a good leader, but that still doesn't mean he would've been a good emperor. He had absolutely zero knowledge on how to rule, most princes are groomed since childhood so that when they inherit the throne they know what they are doing. Martin didn't have that when he was growing up, he wouldn't know what he was doing. In conclusion he may have been a born leader but he was inexperience in ruling, which would be a big problem for him.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      Which is why I've said that what needs to happen is the Dominion threated Morrowind and Black Marsh in order for them to have a common foe. As for not threatening them, yes they are the dunmer and argonians just don't know it yet. Remember the Thalmor's plan, yeah that plan causes the destruction of Nirn.

      2) Yes it is the same, as like I've said it is not about opinion it is about facts. The fact is that the "Mede Empire" is just another Dynasty of the Septim Empire, which should now be called the Third Imperial Empire. That is fact not an opinion. Which is why I used the comparison to the earth. The fact is that the Earth is a geode and what you are doing is saying that the Earth is flat.

      (I will continue later, have to leave can't finish now.)

      Whatever the Dominion is, they aren't stupid. They won't move against the Dunmer and Argonians until humanity is defeated. Plus, Ulfric can't exactly tell them "Oh by the way the Thalmor want to destroy Nirn so we'd better team up" since no one in Tamriel knows their endgame yet. We players do, but not them.

      No, it's not a fact. If the only thing you have in common with something is the name, it's not the same thing. What you are saying is the equivalent of saying I'm the same person as my father, even though the only thing we have in common is our name. Just as the Mede Empire only shares the name "Third Empire" with the Septim Empire.

      True, so until the Dunmer and Argonians see the threat that is the Thalmor I guess that Skyrim will have to be content with an alliance with Hammerfell and High Rock.

      That is not a valid comparison. A valid comparison would be if a man loses a few limbs and then has a mid life mental breakdown, completely changing his personality. Would you say he was a different person? No, he is still the same person, just missing a few limbs and with a new personality.

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    • Look Draevan and everybody else that believes that the when Martin died that was the end of the Septim Empire.

      First off it is not called the Septim Empire, it is called the Third Empire of Cyrodiil, since it was the Third Empire from Cyrodiil, the Septims were the ruling family(Dynasty). In the Oblivion Crisis three of the provinces left the Empire. The Septim Dynasty ended with the Death of Martin. After that the High Chancellor of the Elder Council took over as Regent. After failing to name a new Emperor a War of Succession started in Cyrodiil, the victor of the war was a Colovian Warlord called Titus Mede(starting the Mede Dynasty). In that time the Thalmor spread their influence into Valenwood and soon that province also left the Empire after a coup by Thalmor supporters. Some time after Elsweyr also left the Empire. Then the Great War happened and in its conclusion Hammerfell also left the Empire. Now consisting of only three provinces the Empire is much weaker than ever before.

      In that little history lesson we've learned that the Empire never collapsed or fell to any internal or external source. Because of that it is still the Third Empire of Cyrodiil, still the same one Tiber created.

      Everything that Draevan claims is the Empire acting way differently than when the Septims ruled it is all attributed to its rulers, not the Empire. Its rulers are much different than the Septims, but the Empire is still the same.

      Now I'd like to point out that the Empire had many different Emperors, some were bad Emperors(other than the Medes), some were good Emperors, some weren't even Septims(other than the Medes). Rulers came and when but the Empire is still standing.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      Look Draevan and everybody else that believes that the when Martin died that was the end of the Septim Empire.

      First off it is not called the Septim Empire, it is called the Third Empire of Cyrodiil, since it was the Third Empire from Cyrodiil, the Septims were the ruling family(Dynasty). In the Oblivion Crisis three of the provinces left the Empire. The Septim Dynasty ended with the Death of Martin. After that the High Chancellor of the Elder Council took over as Regent. After failing to name a new Emperor a War of Succession started in Cyrodiil, the victor of the war was a Colovian Warlord called Titus Mede(starting the Mede Dynasty). In that time the Thalmor spread their influence into Valenwood and soon that province also left the Empire after a coup by Thalmor supporters. Some time after Elsweyr also left the Empire. Then the Great War happened and in its conclusion Hammerfell also left the Empire. Now consisting of only three provinces the Empire is much weaker than ever before.

      In that little history lesson we've learned that the Empire never collapsed or fell to any internal or external source. Because of that it is still the Third Empire of Cyrodiil, still the same one Tiber created.

      Everything that Draevan claims is the Empire acting way differently than when the Septims ruled it is all attributed to its rulers, not the Empire. Its rulers are much different than the Septims, but the Empire is still the same.

      Now I'd like to point out that the Empire had many different Emperors, some were bad Emperors(other than the Medes), some were good Emperors, some weren't even Septims(other than the Medes). Rulers came and when but the Empire is still standing.

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Septim_Dynasty

      "The Septim Dynasty refers to the bloodline of Emperors and Empresses, beginning with Tiber Septim. Also KNOWN as the "Third Empire", this empire spanned the entire Third Era. The majority of these rulers are considered to be Imperials, unless otherwise stated."

      "...and a NEW empire was born.

      My capsed for emphasis.

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Mede_Dynasty

      And now I hope that is put to rest.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      In that little history lesson we've learned that the Empire never collapsed or fell to any internal or external source. Because of that it is still the Third Empire of Cyrodiil, still the same one Tiber created.

      Oh, really?

      The same Empire Tiber created, huh?

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.;

      Lookee here;

      "The Septim Empire, bereft of its god-blessed dynasty, fell in short order after the Crisis' end. Political and cultural wounds left by the war would continue to fester long after the Crisis abated. In particular, the secession of Black Marsh and the subsequent fall of Morrowind left the east in doubt. Tamriel itself would enter a state of disarray not seen since the fall of the Potentates and the Second Empire." That's the description of a collapse if I ever heard one.


      Sure, sure and then there is this of miniscule importance;

      "But the majority of the empire would be restored under Titus Mede, using conquest to re-establish control." But seeing as Titus was a random Colovian warlord blackmailing the Council I think it can be overlooked. There more support for calling the Mede dynasty a new empire than not from where I am standing.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      That is not a valid comparison. A valid comparison would be if a man loses a few limbs and then has a mid life mental breakdown, completely changing his personality. Would you say he was a different person? No, he is still the same person, just missing a few limbs and with a new personality.

      Actually in that case I would say it's a different person, but it's more than that in the Empire's case. It's like if you had your memory erased and you were implanted all the memories and the personality of a completely different person who shared none of your values or beliefs. Like if you were Bush and you had personality switched with Obama: not the same as before.

      Also, I agree with what 80.216.220.71 said about the Septim Empire. It's not the same Empire, in my opinion. If it's entirely different, it's not the same.

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    • You want to use Wiki pages, well two can play at that game.

      • Septim Dynasty: "Martin Septim (3E ??? - 3E 433) was the illegitimate son of Emperor Uriel Septim VII. Before 3E 433, he never knew his parents, and lived much of his life as a priest. However, events during the Oblivion Crisis caused him to become Emperor, in order to stop the threat. His death signaled the end of the Septim Dynasty, as well as the official end of the Third Era."
      • Empires: "After Martin Septim's death, the Elder Council struggled to maintain the Empire. The Empire was eventually taken over by a Colovian Warlord named Titus Mede I, after he seized the crown and conquered the Imperial City during the Stormcrown Interregnum."
      • Mede Dynasty: "The Mede Dynasty was the second ruling family of the Third Empire."

      But linking pages doesn't prove a point. The matter of the fact is the Empire didn't fall, the Stormcrown Interregnum was just a war of succession in Cyrodiil. During that time High Rock, Skyrim, Hammerfell, Elsweyr and Valenwood were still a part of the Empire. They didn't all split up into different provinces, Titus didn't conquer all of those provinces. He conquered Cyrodiil, and in turn the Ruby Throne, becoming the next Emperor of the Third Empire. People this is not up for debate, this is fact. No amount of wishing that the Empire in the 4th Era is not the same as the one in the 3rd will change that. Face it they are the same but with different ruling families, meaning a different mindset and a different personality.

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    • Stop the pointless flame war. 

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      That is not a valid comparison. A valid comparison would be if a man loses a few limbs and then has a mid life mental breakdown, completely changing his personality. Would you say he was a different person? No, he is still the same person, just missing a few limbs and with a new personality.

      Actually in that case I would say it's a different person, but it's more than that in the Empire's case. It's like if you had your memory erased and you were implanted all the memories and the personality of a completely different person who shared none of your values or beliefs. Like if you were Bush and you had personality switched with Obama: not the same as before.

      Also, I agree with what 80.216.220.71 said about the Septim Empire. It's not the same Empire, in my opinion. If it's entirely different, it's not the same.

      The Empire did not forget how is once was, it still knows its the same Empire that Tiber created. The currency is still the Septim, its flag is still the red dragon, it still has the same laws and customs from before. All it did was agree to ban Talos worship, which is not forgetting its past, it's choosing to let others punish those that remember.

      And Draevan like I said before all your points that you claim make the "Mede Empire" a different Empire from the Third Empire is solely things the ruler has done. That is not what the Empire has done. Do you really believe that the Empire under Septim rule acted the same throughout its existence? Even when Pelagius the Mad ruled? When Potema's son ruled? There was only one Emperor that tried to expand the Empire into Akavir, did that mean that his was a new Empire just because he acted differently than his predecessors? No.

      As for the Emperor not being chosen by Akatosh, only Tiber was chosen by Akatosh, and subsequently his descendants. But the last of Tiber's descendants was Pelagius I, after that the rest were all descendants of Tiber's brother. The Empire was also ruled by those that weren't even related to Tiber, like Katariah(One of the best Emperors). Was she chosen by Akatosh? No, still that didn't change the fact that in her rule the Empire was probably the most stable and peaceful it has probably ever been.

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    • Ghost Anubis wrote: Stop the pointless flame war. 

      Might as well stop, they refuse to see Logic and reason.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Might as well stop, they refuse to see Logic and reason.

      We don't share your opinion, that's all. It's not illogical and unreasonable. You thinking it is, on the other hand, is very unreasonable. I was going to respond to your other comments when I saw this. If you're going to be an snotty asshole and try to belittle people who don't agree with you, I won't bother debating you in the future.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Might as well stop, they refuse to see Logic and reason.

      We don't share your opinion, that's all. It's not illogical and unreasonable. You thinking it is, on the other hand, is very unreasonable. I was going to respond to your other comments when I saw this. If you're going to be an snotty asshole and try to belittle people who don't agree with you, I won't bother debating you in the future.

      Belittling people? You are the one that just insulted me, I have been very civil in my debate with you so don't insult me and then claim that I was belittling you.

      Also it's not about agreeing with me or not, as this is not an opinion. An opinion would me saying I don't like the Medes, that is an opinion. Or another opinion is me thinking the Medes suck compared to the Septims. The fact is that the Medes are just another Dynasty of the Third Empire, if you can't accept that then it is your problem as you refuse to see the truth and are just being stubborn. Hence you being illogical and unreasonable.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Belittling people? You are the one that just insulted me, I have been very civil in my debate with you so don't insult me and then claim that I was belittling you.

      Also it's not about agreeing with me or not, as this is not an opinion. An opinion would me saying I don't like the Medes, that is an opinion. Or another opinion is me thinking the Medes suck compared to the Septims. The fact is that the Medes are just another Dynasty of the Third Empire, if you can't accept that then it is your problem as you refuse to see the truth and are just being stubborn. Hence you being illogical and unreasonable.

      You didn't insult me? Are you serious? 

      "Might as well stop, they refuse to see Logic and reason." 

       That right there is an insult. That wasn't civil, it was incredibly arrogant and snotty, belittling me for not agreeing with you. If you insult me, I'll insult you right back. You're being very arrogant and condescending right now, Harold. Yeah, 80.216.220.71 and I don't share your view that the Mede and Septim Empires are the same. That's not a reason to start mocking us.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      1) In the Great War book it states that the Legion lead by General Jonna, as she was heading towards the Imperial City, was attacked by Dominion troops from Bravil and Skingrad. The Legion beat them relatively easily. So it means that the combined garrison of two of the conquered cities was much smaller than Jonna's Legion. So it is safe to assume that the combined garrison of all the other cities would not equal the number of troops of an Imperial Legion, meaning they are pretty small.

      1.5) The Imperial City is huge, it is about 4 times the size of any other Cyrodiilic city, at the very least. They can easily keep the army in there. And as for the Dominion protecting its land, the Empire wasn't attacking them so they were out of harm's way. It is safe to assume that most of the Dominion's forces were a part of the Invasions and that only a few troops were left in their home provinces.

      2) They did fight the "full"(In parenthesis because the Dominions armies are far from full) might of the Dominion. All available troops left from the invasion force in Cyrodiil, and possibly with reinforcements from home, were sent to fight the Redguards. As for how the war in Hammerfell was, the Dominion had conquered much of the south in the Great War, the redguards took it back. I wouldn't call that defense, I'd call that offense.

      3)Seriously, I've explained this like a billion times already to multiple people. Titus had no idea how many troops the Dominion still had left, for all he knows the Dominion could have another army just as large as Lord Naarifin's ready to invade Cyrodiil. He and the rest of the Empire wanted the war done with, but they didn't have the man power, the moral and the knowledge to invade the Dominion. So he opened negotiations with the Thalmor. The elves were suborn and didn't agree to anything less than the original terms they had proposed before the war. Titus reluctantly agreed because he had no other choice, it was either sign the damned thing or risk being invaded by another possible Dominion Army he had no idea about(since he had no idea what was going on inside the Dominion and how many troops they really had.)

      3.5) The Empire only lost 3 legions and the rest were at about half strength. We know the Empire had at one time 18 Legions, but we don't know exactly how many they had at the time of the Great War. It is safe to assume that they had less than 18 since they lost Summerset/Valenwood/Elsweyr/Black Marsh/Morrowind. But they still had around 12 since the Twelfth Legion appears in the book Lord of Souls. So lets say they had 12 Legions, after losing the 8th and two others they'd have 9 legions at about half strength. That is about the man power of about 5 Legions(5/12). Which is about 1/3 of their original strength.

      The Dominion had two invasion forces, the biggest one was in Cyrodiil to fight off the bulk of the Empire's forces. The force in Cyrodiil occupied 3 cities but also had part of their troops near Skingrad. 1/2 of the occupying force is much less than one Legion(as I stated above) so we can assume that the full garrison of the three cities plus the forces in Skingrad are about the strength of 1.5 legions. The force in Skingrad and Bravil were beaten by General Jonna's Legion so that means that the Dominion like had 1 Legion worth of troops in Cyrodiil left after the Battle of the Red Ring. The Hammerfell invasion force was smaller than the one in Cyrodiil, as that one was the largest Elven Army in History. It also suffered heavy loses, so it means that it had to have lost more than half its troops. Meaning that if the Hammerfell Invasion force was less than 6/12 of the Dominion's forces. Lets estimate around 5/12, half of 5 is 2,5 meaning that they must have lost more than that. So lets assume they lost 3/12 and are now at 2/12 of their strength, adding the Legion worth of troops from Cyrodiil(1/12) equals 3/12(1/4) of their original strength.

      So we can estimate that the Empire still had 1/3 of their original strength and that the Dominion had 1/4 of their invasion force left. Like you said it is possible they had more troops back home but we don't know how many, I'd assume not much. But not counting any possible reinforcements we can estimate that the Empire had at least 1 Legion worth of troops more than the remaining forces from the Dominion invasion force.

      The Great War said they faced bitter resistance, but the nord legionnaires held firm. It doesn't say they easily defeated them. It's also safe to assume that the there were quite a lot of troops in the other cities that would form a reserve army and treat the wounded.

      It is highly nlikely that the combined force of of Aldmeri troops defending their homeland and the ones garrisoned in other cities would be less than the ones in the Imperial City. Think of it like a fleet of ships: While the main ship or flagship may be generally bigger than the other individual ships, is it bigger than the other ships combined? Not even close. The same could be said for the Aldmeri Dominion forces. 

      Another thing, where does it say specifically "The largest army in Elven History?" I swear I've seen that sentence somewhere before but even when seaching for it I can't find it.

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    • TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:
      The Book states that there were indeed two Aldmeri armies in the Great War, one in Hammerfell and One in Cyrodiil, when the dominion changed it's goal of merely confronting the legion while their forces in Hammerfell took over, to actiley conquering the empire the armie in cyrodiil was bolstered with all available forces from the dominion (new recruits and reserve forces seem to fit the description of all, wouldn't you say -'J).

      The Chapter labled "The Battle of Red Ring" starts with the siege of the imperial city, but it ends with the liberation of cyrodiil and states Decianuses forces legions formed a shield wall blocking the retreat of the dominion army, in the end EVERY dominion soldier in cyrodiil was killed... except for Lord Naarafin who was kept alive and hung from the White-Gold Tower.... NOW, if all dominion soldiers in Cyrodiil were killed, and Decianus stoped any of them from retreating, what happened to them o.O?... it shouldn't be to difficult to make the logical connection -'J

      .... one last thing I'd like to point out regarding the emperor deciding to yeild to the dominion in the treaty, he initially wanted to accept the dominions offer before the war, but he felt no one in the empire would support the decision.... chew on that for a while and see what scenarios come to mind about the emperors true agenda -'J


      ~May your road lead you to warm sands :-3

      What you just implied is outright rediculous, you should read The Great War again, because your memory isn't serving you well. Seriously? You think that they formed an entire sheild war across the whole Cyrodiil border and killed every soldier... IMPOSSIBLE.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote:
      TheBEARDEDcanuck wrote:
      The Book states that there were indeed two Aldmeri armies in the Great War, one in Hammerfell and One in Cyrodiil, when the dominion changed it's goal of merely confronting the legion while their forces in Hammerfell took over, to actiley conquering the empire the armie in cyrodiil was bolstered with all available forces from the dominion (new recruits and reserve forces seem to fit the description of all, wouldn't you say -'J).

      The Chapter labled "The Battle of Red Ring" starts with the siege of the imperial city, but it ends with the liberation of cyrodiil and states Decianuses forces legions formed a shield wall blocking the retreat of the dominion army, in the end EVERY dominion soldier in cyrodiil was killed... except for Lord Naarafin who was kept alive and hung from the White-Gold Tower.... NOW, if all dominion soldiers in Cyrodiil were killed, and Decianus stoped any of them from retreating, what happened to them o.O?... it shouldn't be to difficult to make the logical connection -'J

      .... one last thing I'd like to point out regarding the emperor deciding to yeild to the dominion in the treaty, he initially wanted to accept the dominions offer before the war, but he felt no one in the empire would support the decision.... chew on that for a while and see what scenarios come to mind about the emperors true agenda -'J


      ~May your road lead you to warm sands :-3

      What you just implied is outright rediculous, you should read The Great War again, because your memory isn't serving you well. Seriously? You think that they formed an entire sheild war across the whole Cyrodiil border and killed every soldier... IMPOSSIBLE.

      Please do not verbally bash others in a discussion. It's inappropriate and can only lead to fights.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Belittling people? You are the one that just insulted me, I have been very civil in my debate with you so don't insult me and then claim that I was belittling you.

      Also it's not about agreeing with me or not, as this is not an opinion. An opinion would me saying I don't like the Medes, that is an opinion. Or another opinion is me thinking the Medes suck compared to the Septims. The fact is that the Medes are just another Dynasty of the Third Empire, if you can't accept that then it is your problem as you refuse to see the truth and are just being stubborn. Hence you being illogical and unreasonable.

      You didn't insult me? Are you serious? 

      "Might as well stop, they refuse to see Logic and reason." 

       That right there is an insult. That wasn't civil, it was incredibly arrogant and snotty, belittling me for not agreeing with you. If you insult me, I'll insult you right back. You're being very arrogant and condescending right now, Harold. Yeah, 80.216.220.71 and I don't share your view that the Mede and Septim Empires are the same. That's not a reason to start mocking us.

      You called my a snotty assshole, that in an insult. I said you refuse to see logic and reason because you are plainly being stubborn and refusing to see a fact as truth. If you want to be stubborn then that is your problem but don't lie and pretend I'm the one being impossible.

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    • Is that so. Well... wrote: The Great War said they faced bitter resistance, but the nord legionnaires held firm. It doesn't say they easily defeated them. It's also safe to assume that the there were quite a lot of troops in the other cities that would form a reserve army and treat the wounded.

      It is highly nlikely that the combined force of of Aldmeri troops defending their homeland and the ones garrisoned in other cities would be less than the ones in the Imperial City. Think of it like a fleet of ships: While the main ship or flagship may be generally bigger than the other individual ships, is it bigger than the other ships combined? Not even close. The same could be said for the Aldmeri Dominion forces. 

      Another thing, where does it say specifically "The largest army in Elven History?" I swear I've seen that sentence somewhere before but even when seaching for it I can't find it.

      "but Jonna's troops faced bitter resistance as the Aldmeri counterattacked from Bravil and Skingrad. The heroic Nord legionnaires held firm, however, beating off the piecemeal Aldmeri attacks." The Nords beat them.

      I said that the combined forces in the conquered cities in Cyrodiil were about 2 Legions worth of troops. We cannot make an estimate on how many troops the Dominion had at home because it is never mentioned. But like I said from the evidence that the Redguards could beat them after the Great War then that means that the Dominion didn't have many troops to reinforce the ones in Hammerfell.

      The comparison you made makes no sense. A valid comparison would be if the Dominion split their fleet into different fleets and the largest one was the main fleet. The other smaller fleets could or could not be larger than the main but we need actual numbers for that, since the main could be 51% of the whole fleet or it could be less we just don't know.

      As for that sentence. I am also trying to look for it but I cannot find it. In the Third Aldmeri Dominion page it states that Lord Naarifin's army was immense but it doesn't say largest in Elven history. But like you said I know that I've seen that sentence before.

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    • To the people saying its no the same Empire:

      Its very simple look at REAL LIFE history of how Empires work and stop quoting the ES wiki. When Trajan, someone who was not the same as the linage Casear and Augustus and Caligula came from, took the throne in Rome The Roman Empire was not renamed the "Trajan Empire" nor was it called "The Augustine Empire" prior to that, it was the Roman Empire, just like the current Empire in ES is called the Third Empire, implying that its the third Cyrodil Empire. It may have changed policies and religion but its still the same damn Empire Tiber founded, unless someone would like to show proof the Empire completely collapsed and fell apart and the Mede's conquered Cyrodil, Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfall and forged a new Empire, then your right, it would be the Fourth Empire. otherwise shut it and open a history book and read how Empire's work

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    • 99.105.83.169 wrote: To the people saying its no the same Empire:

      Its very simple look at REAL LIFE history of how Empires work and stop quoting the ES wiki. When Trajan, someone who was not the same as the linage Casear and Augustus and Caligula came from, took the throne in Rome The Roman Empire was not renamed the "Trajan Empire" nor was it called "The Augustine Empire" prior to that, it was the Roman Empire, just like the current Empire in ES is called the Third Empire, implying that its the third Cyrodil Empire. It may have changed policies and religion but its still the same damn Empire Tiber founded, unless someone would like to show proof the Empire completely collapsed and fell apart and the Mede's conquered Cyrodil, Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfall and forged a new Empire, then your right, it would be the Fourth Empire. otherwise shut it and open a history book and read how Empire's work

      Not to mention that the Roman Empire also changed religions. It used to believe in the Roman Gods(Jupiter, Mars, Venus, etc.) and then it switched to Christianity. When it did that it stopped hunting chirstians, does that mean that it was a new Empire? No. Like I've said everything they claim is the Empire acting differently is just because of its new ruling family's personality, priorities and policies.

      But we've talked this to death with them and they refuse to see the fact. They are just being stubborn. Its like if they accept that the "Mede Empire" is the same as the Septim/Third Empire that it would make the Third Empire(under Septim rule) any less great and it would forever be tainted with what the Medes did. Empire are born and then they die, its inevitable. If the Medes truly bring about the collapse of the Third Empire then so be it.

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    • I was informed that an argument apparently happened in this thread. Anyone, please stop insulting each other. Next time someone does that, I'll post a warning on that persons Talk Page. Please stay civil.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      You called my a snotty assshole, that in an insult. I said you refuse to see logic and reason because you are plainly being stubborn and refusing to see a fact as truth. If you want to be stubborn then that is your problem but don't lie and pretend I'm the one being impossible.

      Yes, because you insulted me, and keep insulting me. Stop acting like you didn't insult me and that I insulted you out of nowhere. 

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      But we've talked this to death with them and they refuse to see the fact. They are just being stubborn. Its like if they accept that the "Mede Empire" is the same as the Septim/Third Empire that it would make the Third Empire(under Septim rule) any less great and it would forever be tainted with what the Medes did. Empire are born and then they die, its inevitable. If the Medes truly bring about the collapse of the Third Empire then so be it.

      agreed, even with all the great things the ROman Empire/Republic did they had some bad as well, no EMpire is flawless and 99% good. I think its people who are Empire fans like myself but refuse to see the wrong, more like Empire Fanboys/girls. The Same people who probly think Tiber Septim was this saintly person that was the greatest thing on Tamriel (personally i think Vivec was a better person then him but just my opinion) even though he used brute force to shape his empire. you gotta take the good with the bad

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    • Well, here's my two cents about the Septim and Mede Empires:

      I don't consider the two the same at all. They're two different dynasties, their style of governance appears different and the Medes aren't Dragonborn. It might still be the Third Empire, but the name is only thing the two have in common. And that's my opinion.

      Now, if Harold decides to respond properly with this time, I'll gladly continue the debate. Hopefully he won' t respond with another insult. Luckily the Mods are aware and he'll get the boot if he does.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      You called my a snotty assshole, that in an insult. I said you refuse to see logic and reason because you are plainly being stubborn and refusing to see a fact as truth. If you want to be stubborn then that is your problem but don't lie and pretend I'm the one being impossible.

      Yes, because you insulted me, and keep insulting me. Stop acting like you didn't insult me and that I insulted you out of nowhere. 

      Dude, this is exactly what you are being in this debate.

      stub·born/ˈstəbərn/. adjective
      1. having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, esp. in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so.
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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Dude, this is exactly what you are being in this debate.

      stub·born/ˈstəbərn/. adjective
      1. having or showing dogged determination not to change one's attitude or position on something, esp. in spite of good arguments or reasons to do so.

      And you just keep on going. You know what you're doing is just a poorly veiled way of calling me an idiot for not agreeing with your views? Which is an insult