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  • I not talking about the things you can do ingame. Lets say they have 100% skills, stats, reflects, resistances, the maxinum amount of mana, health, and stamina Over 9000? What could they possibly do? (I also count the dragonborn as a topic)

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    • I think they could kill Daedric princes,because as you said they are resistant to every damage,they could reflect their own damage,and anybody wouldn't stand a chance,so really the question is:"What couldn't they do?"

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    • Probably kick each other's butts, and kill any divines.

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    • Well, Clavicus Vile said that the Dragonborn is as powerful as him WITHOUT Barbas (Barbas holds half his power) and that (depending on your play style) was at low level. At a high level with max stuff, they could literally rule all of Tamriel, as the NEW and IMPROVED 5 Companions

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    • for the 3 most recent games i could imagine the Nerevarine Reborn, The Champion Of Cyrodiil and the Dragonborn teaming to break space and time just by their sheer awesomeness.

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    • Nerevarine is immune to age, so by the time of Skyrim has had probably had, what, some 400 years to become stronger, the champion of Cyrodil became Sheogorath at the end of the shivering isles DLC, and the dragonborn is, well, the dragonborn. Each of them could probably take on a daedric prince, and maybe even make their own version of the tribunal.

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    • The Hero of Kvatch is definetely the most powerful, eventhough he didn't have any special attributes or powers like the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn, he fought hordes of daedric creatures and closed many Oblivion Gates, he also defeated many powerful foes such as Mankar Camoran, Mannimarco the King of Worms, Umaril, Jyggalag, and so on... Now that he became Sheogorath, I bet no one would be able to defeat him, unless the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn combine their forces against him, but even then, they'll have a 20% chance of defeating him!

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    • Technically, unless you chose the ending in Daggerfall where the player died, all of the champions COULD be the same person. All the games take place within 250 years. Master Neloth was at least a hundred in Morrowind, and he reappears in Skyrim: Dragonborn. This means he is at least 350 years old!

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    • 151.224.59.239 wrote:
      Technically, unless you chose the ending in Daggerfall where the player died, all of the champions COULD be the same person. All the games take place within 250 years. Master Neloth was at least a hundred in Morrowind, and he reappears in Skyrim: Dragonborn. This means he is at least 350 years old!

      Neloth is a Telvanni wizard who has a lot of knowledge and performs lots of experiments and is known to have had dealings with Hermaeus Mora, it's not surprising that he somehow found a way to make himself immune to the effects of aging...

      As to the heroes in each game being the same person, it's true if you refer to us "the Players", but you're wrong if you refer to the characters...

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    • Even if you didn't die in Daggerfall, the Numidium made the dragon break happen so that ending happened either way, so he is dead. He cannot be the EC as he was imprisoned during the IS while the EC was questing for the Staff of Chaos. Nerevarine cannot be HoK as Valen Dreth would have recognised him, being imprisoned with him before being shipped off to Vvardenfell, same reason he cannot be LDB as Jiub would have recognise him in the SC. HoK cannot be LDB as he cannot wear the Amulet of Kings. The EC cannot be the Hok as the emperor would have immediately recognised him in the prison. And I really don't think the Emperor would send a man who he already proclaimed as the eternal champion to be a blade. So no, none of the heroes are the same person.  

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    • In reply to the original thread, all the heroes are pretty kickass except for the first two.

      EC- He(for all intents and purposes) was a normal person that saved the emperor and defeted tharn by taking his jewel, so he isn't that powerful in the way you are asking, but he did have some form of power over the empire after the game.

      Agent- Dead because he be stupid and attempted to wield the mantella to use the numidium for his own goal when the totem of TS told him he couldn't.

      Nerevarine- Can probably kill an aedra, as he was able to kill Dagoth Ur and Almalexia who were "living gods" much like the aedra. He even killed the aspectt of Hircine.

      HoK- Most powerful, he is daedric prince. He even traveled to a dead persons mind. He can probably travel between Mundus and Oblivion freely and kill any mortal being. Probably even an aedra.

      LDB- Can conquer Tamriel by himself and kill Aedra, as he killed Alduin and the FDB/Miraak, the most powerful NPC of all time.

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    • SO/Vestige- Can slay anybody as he can come back to life, being soulless.

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    • Neloth is a Dark Elf, they have long lifespans, he could easily live from Morrowind to Skyrim. As for the champions, the EC and the Hero of Daggerfall aren't really special. The Nerevarine is now immortal due to Corprus disease, and is no doubt skilled, but they don't have the power to go up against a god, I mean, they must have lost a lot of artifacts for them to appear in Oblivion and Skyrim, and they wouldn't have done much anyway. The Dragonborn is more powerful than the Nerevarine, but is mortal. I honestly think that Clavicus Vile was exaggerating to make a point. The ONLY champion powerful enough to take on one of the Divines or Daedra is the Champion of Cyrodiil, because they became Sheogorath, who is pretty powerful for a Daedra Lord, and is porbably allied with Jyggalag for freeing him from being Sheogorath. Everyone else could probably at most defeat an aspect or a servant of a Daedra or Aedra.

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    • 67.186.21.114 wrote:
      Neloth is a Dark Elf, they have long lifespans, he could easily live from Morrowind to Skyrim. As for the champions, the EC and the Hero of Daggerfall aren't really special. The Nerevarine is now immortal due to Corprus disease...

      Amen to that! The Champion of Cyrodiil is truly the most powerful protagonist of all Elder Scroll games! I thought that the Last Dragonborn and the Nerevarine were bad-ass, but when I played Oblivion and its DLCs (Knights of the nine, Shivering Isles), I realized The Hero of Kvatch would easily defeat them even if they combine their forces against him.

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    • Let's look at some their trophy kills, shall we?

      Eternal Champion- Jagar Tharn (Mortal)

      Hero of Daggerfall- Lord Woodborne (Mortal)

      Nerevarine- Amalexia (Living God); Dagoth Ur (Living God); Aspect of Hiricine (Aspect of Daedric Prince)

      Hero of Kvatch- Mankar Camoran (Living God(or Semi-God)); Jygglag (Daedric Prince); Umaril, 2 times over (Powerful Daedra,Semi-God); Most of the Black Hand on Accident (Mortal); Mannimarco (Living God, Undead); the Gray Prince (Mortal); Giant Slaughterfish (Animal,Mortal); 

      Last Dragonborn- Alduin, 2 times over (God); Ulfric Stormcloak/General Tullius (Mortal/Mortal); Galmar Stone-Fist/Legate Rikke (Mortal/Mortal); Emperor of Tamriel (Mortal); 12 Masked Dragon Priests (Undead); Miraak (Semi-Mortal?); Harkon (Undead); King Olaf One-Eye (Undead); Red Eagle (Undead); The Gauldersons (Undead x3); Gatekeeper (Undead); The Forgemaster (Robot); Karstaag (Ghost/Undead); Glenmoril Witches (Mortal?); Pale Lady (Undead)


      I may have just found more for the LDB than the others, but it seems that over time, there are more and more important figures you kill.

      And those stupid guards still ask if someone stole your sweetroll.

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    • The LDB can also kill the Ebony Warrior, who is kind of a badass

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    • I don't see why the LDB doesn't become the High King, or even ascend to godhood like Tiber Septim. He pretty much did all the heavy lifting, as well as killing everything there is to kill, besides the Daedra. Hell, Akatosh should at least come down to tell him "good job." He did grant him the power, after all.

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    • 24.19.41.157 wrote:
      I don't see why the LDB doesn't become the High King, or even ascend to godhood like Tiber Septim. He pretty much did all the heavy lifting, as well as killing everything there is to kill, besides the Daedra. Hell, Akatosh should at least come down to tell him "good job." He did grant him the power, after all.

      Much like all the heroes of The Elder Scrolls, he faded into history and fewer people remember him after decades and centuries go by. These heroes usually disappear a few years after they fulfill their destiny, like the Nerevarine who went to Akavir and was never heard from again, and The Champion of Cyrodiil who went to the Shivering Isles and became Sheogorath after saving Tamriel during the Oblivion Crisis (notice that when people bring up the Oblivion Crisis in TES V Skyrim, they only mention Martin Septim, it's like they don't know who The Champion of Cyrodiil is).

      The Last Dragonborn probably disappeared too, especially after he killed Miraak and became the Champion of Hermaeus Mora. I bet he stayed in Apocrypha to end up forever imprisonned like Miraak.

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    • If the Hero of Kvatch, Dovahkiin, and Neravine reborn were to team up, (and the world didn't explode due to over exposure to pure awesome) they could any mortal for sure. And the Daedric princes should be afraid as well.

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    • Hero of kvatch is sheogorath but he lost his personality as hero, i am sure that he is the most powerful among the character from TES.

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      • cough cough* You seem to look over the fact that as Sheo, HoK has large periods where he is in completely different personalities where he is quite often mental (sorry about any spelling errors, it's late)
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    • You can't just dismiss the Hero of Daggerfall.

      For example, there was a killable enemy in the game called "Daedra Lord"

      Of course, you can speculate as to what a deadra lord in TES II: Daggerfall was, but it means the Hero of Daggerfall definitely was not a push over.

      As for the EC, while he was probably the weakest of the protagonists, he definitely was not a common man. Going through all those dungeons across Tamriel and collecting the pieces of the Staff of Chaos, and confronting arguably the most powerful mage in all of Tamriel is no menial task.

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    • I still can't seem to overlook the fact that the Dragonborn is actually weak as far as the dragon blood goes. He can only use certain shouts then will have to wait for a while for SOMETHING to recharge, maybe he got a sore throat from saying one word. The shouts he does perform like fire/frost breath are also MUCH weaker than most dragons, so it's mostly the weapons, armor and "normal" magic that make him, just like the others.

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    • The Z Boss wrote:
      In reply to the original thread, all the heroes are pretty kickass except for the first two.

      EC- He(for all intents and purposes) was a normal person that saved the emperor and defeted tharn by taking his jewel, so he isn't that powerful in the way you are asking, but he did have some form of power over the empire after the game.

      Agent- Dead because he be stupid and attempted to wield the mantella to use the numidium for his own goal when the totem of TS told him he couldn't.

      Nerevarine- Can probably kill an aedra, as he was able to kill Dagoth Ur and Almalexia who were "living gods" much like the aedra. He even killed the aspectt of Hircine.

      HoK- Most powerful, he is daedric prince. He even traveled to a dead persons mind. He can probably travel between Mundus and Oblivion freely and kill any mortal being. Probably even an aedra.

      LDB- Can conquer Tamriel by himself and kill Aedra, as he killed Alduin and the FDB/Miraak, the most powerful NPC of all time.

      actually I think Sheogorath from the shivering isles expansion is the most powerful NPC ever.He is level 254 and has 10000 health.Also if you attack him you are paralyzed and he says "You shouldnt have done that," he then proceeds to teleport you a few thousand feet above a place rightfully named execution point where as you plumit to your death you ponder your idiocy in choosing to attack him.

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    • TLD isn't a mortal sure his body is but his soul isn't he can be resurrected or given a new body or his soul will go where Dragons soul go but seeing TLD resurrected as a Dragon would be awesome

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    • 70.113.208.201 wrote:
      I still can't seem to overlook the fact that the Dragonborn is actually weak as far as the dragon blood goes. He can only use certain shouts then will have to wait for a while for SOMETHING to recharge, maybe he got a sore throat from saying one word. The shouts he does perform like fire/frost breath are also MUCH weaker than most dragons, so it's mostly the weapons, armor and "normal" magic that make him, just like the others.

      Ah but He just started out. It Takes Years of learning to truly master a shout. He just got a few years off. Imagine if the greybeards were dragonborn they would be unstoppable.

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    • People when you say that any of this character are weak when you're plaiyng the game, just remember that when you reach a pretty high level where you can defeat anything with ease, you're probably just a few in game months after you started the game, imagine what they can do after some years.

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    • 41.250.6.218 wrote:
      24.19.41.157 wrote:
      I don't see why the LDB doesn't become the High King, or even ascend to godhood like Tiber Septim. He pretty much did all the heavy lifting, as well as killing everything there is to kill, besides the Daedra. Hell, Akatosh should at least come down to tell him "good job." He did grant him the power, after all.
      Much like all the heroes of The Elder Scrolls, he faded into history and fewer people remember him after decades and centuries go by. These heroes usually disappear a few years after they fulfill their destiny, like the Nerevarine who went to Akavir and was never heard from again, and The Champion of Cyrodiil who went to the Shivering Isles and became Sheogorath after saving Tamriel during the Oblivion Crisis (notice that when people bring up the Oblivion Crisis in TES V Skyrim, they only mention Martin Septim, it's like they don't know who The Champion of Cyrodiil is).

      The Last Dragonborn probably disappeared too, especially after he killed Miraak and became the Champion of Hermaeus Mora. I bet he stayed in Apocrypha to end up forever imprisonned like Miraak.

      we have to wait to find out what happens because of dragon break we dont know who won civil war. until dev give us canon we cant guess fate dragonborn.

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    • It would be just awesome for all five of them to team up and beat up draugr and thalmor.

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    • Yes^^ what he said

      They could take down the thalmor

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    • I question the assumption that the Champion of Cyrodil became Sheogorath; sure the evil incarnations of him probably would, but not any incarnation that had any pretensions of being 'good'. It's an optional outcome, but not one set in stone.


      The Nerevarine or the Dragonborn could take out the Champion of Cyrodil, who whilst powerful doesn't have the power to match either or the other two, the poor sucker can't even fly! Between the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn it's a close run thing, personally I think the Nerevarine would have the edge.

      As for the protagonist in Daggerfall death at the end only happens if the agent makes the 'wrong' choice, Bethesda apparently assumes that a fatal choice was made.

      As for them all being the same character, one easy fact eliminates that argument; if the CoC and/or the Dragonborn were the Nerevarine, then they would be immune to disease, which they aren't. 

      Howeer having said all that, it comes down to personal choice; if you want them to all be the same they are, want one particular champion to be more powerful, or all of them to be Argonians, that's the way it is. When you buy the game it's yours to do what you want with, and interpret however you want, they are open ended games not books!

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    • Don't forget the Hero of Kvatch is also a Divine Crusader, having the power of all Divines, mostly Talos.

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    • IllidanS4 wrote:
      Don't forget the Hero of Kvatch is also a Divine Crusader, having the power of all Divines, mostly Talos.

      And sheogorath.

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    • If they made Landfall into a game storyline  http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Landfall  http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:587483  E.g TES VI Landfall then I would love all 5 heroes (And possibly the vestige) to band together and try and stop it. I mean most of them probably are near or actually are immortal except the first two but then the daggerfall dude was involved in a dragon break and I dont see you getting out of that with some weird powers or something and i'm sure it would be pretty easy to make up something for the eternal champion. It would really be awesome.

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    • There are more than just 6 heroes in the Elder Scrolls series, and none of them have the power to "kill" Daedric Princes.

      None of the Daedric Princes can actually be killed.  It won't matter how powerful the heroes are if they were to challenge these beings in their own Planes of Oblivion, anyway...all hope is lost when facing a Daedric Prince within their own realm.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      There are more than just 6 heroes in the Elder Scrolls series, and none of them have the power to "kill" Daedric Princes.

      None of the Daedric Princes can actually be killed.  It won't matter how powerful the heroes are if they were to challenge these beings in their own Planes of Oblivion, anyway...all hope is lost when facing a Daedric Prince within their own realm.

      Not true.

      The Vestige almost killed Molag Bal in his own realm, Coldharbour, until Meridia intervened.

      Also, Daedric Princes can be destroyed inside their own realms. It's just unbelievably hard to do so, as their realm is the place where they're the most powerful beings.

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    • Yeah, taking down a Daedric Prince on her/his own turf is a whole new ball game, it's been done once but it took god(s?) to do it as I understand. My understanding of the overtrhrow of Lorkan is very sketchy though.

      Killing the avatar of a Daedric Prince is tough enough, just try taking down Mehrunes Dagon at the end of Oblivon can be done, but I've only succeeded once. Still had to put up with Martin's showboating thanks to scripting though! :(

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    • Pelinal Whitestrake wrote:
      Ifnsman wrote:
      There are more than just 6 heroes in the Elder Scrolls series, and none of them have the power to "kill" Daedric Princes.

      None of the Daedric Princes can actually be killed.  It won't matter how powerful the heroes are if they were to challenge these beings in their own Planes of Oblivion, anyway...all hope is lost when facing a Daedric Prince within their own realm.

      Not true.

      The Vestige almost killed Molag Bal in his own realm, Coldharbour, until Meridia intervened.

      Also, Daedric Princes can be destroyed inside their own realms. It's just unbelievably hard to do so, as their realm is the place where they're the most powerful beings.

      Sorry, but that's wrong.  All the Vestige did was cause Molag Bal to release many of the souls (include his/her own) from his control.

      Molag Bal is "wounded" by the divine power given to the Soulless One, forcing him to release many souls.  Even then, he doesn't at all act like he's defeated.

      If it was actually possible to "kill" a Daedric Prince, it would've been done then and there after Molag Bal was weakened.

      Jyggalag wouldn't still be around for one thing, as the very reason Sheogorath is even around is due to the other Daedric Princes teaming up against him so long ago, trying to destroy him but being unable to do so.


      Don't bother insinuating that Mehrunes Dagon could be "killed" either just through exploiting in-game scripting.

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    • I wasn't insinuating anything of the kind, he can be killed without exploiting anything. You do need to be max level or damn close and be very well prepared though.

      The scripting I was referring to was that the scripted ending, Martin destroying the Amulet of Kings etc. can't be avoided even if Dagon has already been defeated. Once you defeat MD the game is stuck until you lead Martin to the Temple where the scripted cut scene takes place, even though MD isn't actually there anymore. 

      Also as I pointed out a Daedric Prince has been killed in the past, what has been done once can, at least in theory, be done again.

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    • Galraen wrote:
      I wasn't insinuating anything of the kind, he can be killed without exploiting anything. You do need to be max level or damn close and be very well prepared though...

      Nope.  A Daedric Prince has not been killed in the past.

      You referring to Lorkhan?  Not even known if he was Daedric.  He's only "Missing", by the way.  That doesn't even mean he's "dead".  We have all this Lore detailing his Heart being "torn from his chest", and yet there remains evidence that he still lives.  He's definitely not a Daedra, as he participated in Creation.


      Jyggalag?  Nope.  He's still around.

      Molag Bal?  Nope.  "Defeated" and still around.


      Of course I was referring to what can be done in-game, which hardly represents at all what is possible in the story.  Yes, you can "kill" Mehrunes Dagon in TESIV:Oblivion, but it has no impact on the story.  His in-game avatar is not something the player is intended to attack.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      Pelinal Whitestrake wrote:
      Ifnsman wrote:
      There are more than just 6 heroes in the Elder Scrolls series, and none of them have the power to "kill" Daedric Princes.

      None of the Daedric Princes can actually be killed.  It won't matter how powerful the heroes are if they were to challenge these beings in their own Planes of Oblivion, anyway...all hope is lost when facing a Daedric Prince within their own realm.

      Not true.

      The Vestige almost killed Molag Bal in his own realm, Coldharbour, until Meridia intervened.

      Also, Daedric Princes can be destroyed inside their own realms. It's just unbelievably hard to do so, as their realm is the place where they're the most powerful beings.

      Sorry, but that's wrong.  All the Vestige did was cause Molag Bal to release many of the souls (include his/her own) from his control.

      Molag Bal is "wounded" by the divine power given to the Soulless One, forcing him to release many souls.  Even then, he doesn't at all act like he's defeated.

      If it was actually possible to "kill" a Daedric Prince, it would've been done then and there after Molag Bal was weakened.

      Jyggalag wouldn't still be around for one thing, as the very reason Sheogorath is even around is due to the other Daedric Princes teaming up against him so long ago, trying to destroy him but being unable to do so.


      Don't bother insinuating that Mehrunes Dagon could be "killed" either just through exploiting in-game scripting.

      The Vestige managed to almost defeat Molag Bal, which is why Molag couldn't hold unto the souls anymore and 'had' to release them (although it was more forceful).

      And no, it was the Vestige who wounded Molag Bal because he was made much more powerful than he used to be through Akatosh's *power*, which might actually be according to one of my theories a dragon soul.

      There's a finite, and calculatable possibility that you wake up on Mars tomorrow. The possibility exists, but it's EXTREMELY small (you would most likely have to wait 13 billion years until something like that would happen). The same thing also counts for defeating a Daedric Prince in his own realm. The possibility of doing so exists, but the chance to succeed at it is extremely small due to their omnipotence within their own realms.

      Buddy, I've been on this Wiki and the Bethesda Forums for more than a year now. I've made several lore theories, I'm one of the most accountable lore experts here. I know that game mechanics =/= lore. Why?

      Because the Thu'um is described as being able to blast entire cities away in lore, but can at maximum only ragdoll giants across a few meters in-game. It's obvious Bethesda only made that due to gameplay reasons. And that's only one of the many reasons why game mechanics/play does not equal lore.

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    • Also, Jyggalag was:

      1. Not destroyed within his own realm in SI, as he clearly says that his old realm doesn't really exist anymore. 

      2. He wasn't destroyed by the Daedric Princes who teamed up on him, he was merely changed into a Padomaic version of him (Sheogorath).

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    • Now, all of you are saying how if all of the heroes teamed up, they could defeat a Daedric Prince.  The Hero of Kvatch DID defeat Jyggalag, but just didn't kill him.  If all of them teamed up they probably could kill one of the lesser Princes, like Peryite.

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    • It is worth mentioning that Daedra can be banished into the Waters of Oblivion by simply saying their Protonymic.

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    • Lorkan was indeed a Daedric Prince, and if he's managing to walk around without a heart that is indeed impressive!

      "Yes, you can "kill" Mehrunes Dagon in TESIV:Oblivion, but it has no impact on the story.  His in-game avatar is not something the player is intended to attack."

      So much for being an open-ended game then! :D

      Yes I realise you aren't supposed to attack him, just one of many examples of Bethesda not coming to grips with the fact that if you advertise your game as being open ended you really shouldn't then close out possible options. I was actually surprised they didn't make MD an essential character, I was expecting him to go into the 'dead but not actually' animation when he reached zero hit points. 

      Of course if you're exploiting the chameleon screw up in Oblivion then defeating him is dead easy, but I wasn't doing that; I hate that exploit.

      Lore exists in the heads of the people who play the game, everyone is entitled to their opnion, and can base their gameplay on that, it is after all just that, a game.

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    • Galraen wrote:
      Lorkan was indeed a Daedric Prince, and if he's managing to walk around without a heart that is indeed impressive!

      Lorkhan was not a Daedric Prince.

      By definition, a Daedric Prince is a Et'Ada who refused to help Lorkhan to create Mundus/Nirn. Lorkhan never refused to help his own agenda.

      By definition, an Aedra is a Et'Ada who agreed to help Lorkhan to create Mundus/Nirn. Lorkhan did orchestrate the whole event, but he did not -technically seen- sacrifice anything for it. (Except if you include his Heart and him failing CHIM for mortals to learn how to not fail it)

      By definition, a Magna Ge is an Et'Ada who helped Lorkhan with his agenda, but fled before Mundus/Nirn was finished. Lorkhan did not flee.

      Lorkhan belongs to no - known - category.

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    • Sorry that makes no sense at all to me Pelinal, but I'm not going to dispute that any further, I simply don't have the time or inclination to delve deeply into it, apologies if that is a cop out.


      I will comment on the Sheogorath/Jyggalag/Champion of Cyroidil trichotomy for one last time though.

      It seems that Bethesda's 'offocial' line is that either the CoC failed or didn't undertake the quewst to it's conclusion or, more logically the rest of the Daedric Princes intervened.

      I cant see the rest of the Daedrid Princes sitting back and doing nothing if the CoC did indeed help Jyggalag/Sheogorath defy them. I think the likely outcome would be them taking steps to reassert there original action and force Jyggalag back into his Sheogorath personality. What action they would have taken against the CoC for having the temerity to interfere is open to conjecute though. Initially I would have assumed they would have visited summary 'jutice' upon him, with maximum predjudice. However the persuasive arguments of a previous poster, citing the changed eyes and references to events in the Oblivion crisis, leave me inclined to accept that they instead forced him into a merger with Sheogorath as a fitting punishment. In any event I think we can safely assume that for all intents and purposes, in one way or another the Champion of Cyrodil is effectively dead. The arguments that the Agent from Daggerfall and the eternal champion are also dead are also persuasive, and I have no problem accepting that. Which leaves the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn, who's fates are still unknown, and may never be known.

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    • @Galraen

      I'm not even going against the series' open-ended nature, or that people can have opinions of their own.  It is just that game mechanics =/= lore

      You can believe what you will, no-one's stopping you there.  However, there's already evidence in the Lore (and games) that "killing" a Daedric Prince isn't possible (meaning the previously-mentioned hilarity caused by "killing" Mehrunes Dagon's in-game model remains a fluke of the game, nothing more).

      @Pelinal Whitestrake

      However, despite being a self-proclaimed "Lore-expert", you need to understand that Lore =/= 100% accurate (which it partly doesn't sound like you do, despite you claiming to have come up with only theories).  The very definition of the word "Lore" contains nothing about it being word-of-god.  Even MK himself stated once that the Lore isn't meant to be taken for granted (look up on the Imperial Library)

      It's just plain splitting-hairs to argue whether it was the Vestige or the divine power itself that "wounded" Molag Bal.  What's obvious is that the power granted to the Vestige wasn't even his/her own (lost to the Vestige after using it against Molag Bal).

      Lore is only made accurate in the moment that its material is purposely featured by Bethesda in the game's world/story itself.


      There's so much more to pointlessly argue, like how the Last Dragonborn is only the 3rd most powerful Dragonborn ever before facing Miraak.  Talos' Thu'um could knock large doors down (if not also structures) because he was simply the most powerful Dragonborn in history.  The Greybeards could nearly kill people by simply talking in Dovahzul (which is actually demonstrated, considering it is stated in-game that only the Dragonborn could withstand it with no training).

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    • Ifnsman wrote:

      @Pelinal Whitestrake

      However, despite being a self-proclaimed "Lore-expert", you need to understand that Lore =/= 100% accurate (which it partly doesn't sound like you do, despite you claiming to have come up with only theories).  The very definition of the word "Lore" contains nothing about it being word-of-god.  Even MK himself stated once that the Lore isn't meant to be taken for granted (look up on the Imperial Library)

      It's just plain splitting-hairs to argue whether it was the Vestige or the divine power itself that "wounded" Molag Bal.  What's obvious is that the power granted to the Vestige wasn't even his/her own (lost to the Vestige after using it against Molag Bal).

      Lore is only made accurate in the moment that its material is purposely featured by Bethesda in the game's world/story itself.


      There's so much more to pointlessly argue, like how the Last Dragonborn is only the 3rd most powerful Dragonborn ever before facing Miraak.  Talos' Thu'um could knock large doors down (if not also structures) because he was simply the most powerful Dragonborn in history.  The Greybeards could nearly kill people by simply talking in Dovahzul (which is actually demonstrated, considering it is stated in-game that only the Dragonborn could withstand it with no training).

      Tiber Septim's Thu'um powers depended on Wulfharth. Well, guess who *suddenly* couldn't shout anymore after he tricked his friends who just happened to be Wulfharth and Zurin into an Enatiomorphic event? Tiber Septim. Supposedly, his throat was slit. Which could very well be true, as we know that the Observer of an Enatiomorph always gets damaged in some form. Or it could be a lie. Who knows.

      I know very well what MK says, and I know very well that lore often depends on one's own perspective and understanding, but you have absolutely no evidence stating that the Daedric Princes cannot be destroyed. 

      And it is very much obvious that it wasn't his own, as he sacrificed one of his companions (you can choose) to Akatosh in order to gain it. But, the fact is that he used this power to fight against Molag Bal. 

      He could've very simply just walked away, returned to Nirn just like he did so often before. He chose not to. He fought Molag. Forced him to release the souls. Note: Did not KILL him.

      Oh, and if you want to get a glance at a few of my theories, just take a look at my first blog and this thread.

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    • Ifnsman wrote: @Galraen

      I'm not even going against the series' open-ended nature, or that people can have opinions of their own.  It is just that game mechanics =/= lore

      You can believe what you will, no-one's stopping you there.  However, there's already evidence in the Lore (and games) that "killing" a Daedric Prince isn't possible (meaning the previously-mentioned hilarity caused by "killing" Mehrunes Dagon's in-game model remains a fluke of the game, nothing more).

      @Pelinal Whitestrake

      However, despite being a self-proclaimed "Lore-expert", you need to understand that Lore =/= 100% accurate (which it partly doesn't sound like you do, despite you claiming to have come up with only theories).  The very definition of the word "Lore" contains nothing about it being word-of-god.  Even MK himself stated once that the Lore isn't meant to be taken for granted (look up on the Imperial Library)

      It's just plain splitting-hairs to argue whether it was the Vestige or the divine power itself that "wounded" Molag Bal.  What's obvious is that the power granted to the Vestige wasn't even his/her own (lost to the Vestige after using it against Molag Bal).

      Lore is only made accurate in the moment that its material is purposely featured by Bethesda in the game's world/story itself.


      There's so much more to pointlessly argue, like how the Last Dragonborn is only the 3rd most powerful Dragonborn ever before facing Miraak.  Talos' Thu'um could knock large doors down (if not also structures) because he was simply the most powerful Dragonborn in history.  The Greybeards could nearly kill people by simply talking in Dovahzul (which is actually demonstrated, considering it is stated in-game that only the Dragonborn could withstand it with no training).

      Zurin Arctus fought Tiber Septim once, and won, before fighting him a second time and loosing. Talos=Wulfharth, Zurin, AND Tiber's oversoul. Also the nickname for him in life, but the god is the souls of all three. Also, Vivec killed Tiber Septim simply to prove a point. Vivec>All. Except Numinduim. Because that didn't go too well.

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    • "It is just that game mechanics =/= lore"

      You are joking aren't you? That is a ludicrous statement given that game mechanics change with every game. 

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    • Galraen wrote:
      "It is just that game mechanics =/= lore"

      You are joking aren't you? That is a ludicrous statement given that game mechanics change with every game. 

      I'm not joking.

      It makes no sense how underpowered the Thu'um appears to be in Skyrim even though it is described to be enormously powerful in in-game books. The simple reason for that is gameplay and game mechanics.

      Making the player ridiculously OP would take the fun away very fast.

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    • Unless you have two accounts on here it was Ifnsman's comment I was addressing not anything you wrote.

      I understand the need for game ballance and the lack of power of the Dragonborn's Thu'um can be easilly justified anyway as even by the end of the game he would still be very much a novice in it's application.

      However for someone to make the claim that lore is defined by game mechanics means lore is changed with every game, which in a sense it is I guess. The Nerevarine can fly, use spears, and throw daggers which none of the subsequent heroes can, except on the back of a dragon in the Dragoborn's case. Which, if game mechanics define lore, means that there effectivley is no lore, not in any consistant way. If Bethesda's next game is based on a war of the 'gods' and the hero is tasked with wiping out the Daedric Princes, and it's possible in game for him to succeed then many, if not all,  all the arguments on here go up in smoke.

      Simple truth, Bethesda don't give a toss about lore, all they care about is selling games and making money, no surprise there, and if they think they'll sell more games by trashing every piece of lore they will. Just look at how they screwed up Oblivion because they decided there was more profit in pandering to youngsters with consoles than their established PC based customers!

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    • You sound like a legally represented idiot.

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    • Galraen wrote:
      Unless you have two accounts on here it was Ifnsman's comment I was addressing not anything you wrote.

      I understand the need for game ballance and the lack of power of the Dragonborn's Thu'um can be easilly justified anyway as even by the end of the game he would still be very much a novice in it's application.

      However for someone to make the claim that lore is defined by game mechanics means lore is changed with every game, which in a sense it is I guess. The Nerevarine can fly, use spears, and throw daggers which none of the subsequent heroes can, except on the back of a dragon in the Dragoborn's case. Which, if game mechanics define lore, means that there effectivley is no lore, not in any consistant way. If Bethesda's next game is based on a war of the 'gods' and the hero is tasked with wiping out the Daedric Princes, and it's possible in game for him to succeed then many, if not all,  all the arguments on here go up in smoke.

      Simple truth, Bethesda don't give a toss about lore, all they care about is selling games and making money, no surprise there, and if they think they'll sell more games by trashing every piece of lore they will. Just look at how they screwed up Oblivion because they decided there was more profit in pandering to youngsters with consoles than their established PC based customers!

      Except Oblivion actually contained a huge amount of MK lore. Only shame was that Cyrodiil wasn't exactly a Jungle, and the too cartoonish graphics. And the horrible face models.

      And no, the Dragonborn is clearly stated to be able to immediately learn a shout to it's full capacity. Even Arngeir says the Dragonborn can do in mere seconds what the Greybeards need years of preperation for.

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    • Pelinal Whitestrake wrote:
      Ifnsman wrote:

      @Pelinal Whitestrake

      However, despite being a self-proclaimed "Lore-expert", you need to understand that Lore =/= 100% accurate (which it partly doesn't sound like you do, despite you claiming to have come up with only theories).  The very definition of the word "Lore" contains nothing about it being word-of-god.  Even MK himself stated once that the Lore isn't meant to be taken for granted (look up on the Imperial Library)

      It's just plain splitting-hairs to argue whether it was the Vestige or the divine power itself that "wounded" Molag Bal.  What's obvious is that the power granted to the Vestige wasn't even his/her own (lost to the Vestige after using it against Molag Bal).

      Lore is only made accurate in the moment that its material is purposely featured by Bethesda in the game's world/story itself.


      There's so much more to pointlessly argue, like how the Last Dragonborn is only the 3rd most powerful Dragonborn ever before facing Miraak.  Talos' Thu'um could knock large doors down (if not also structures) because he was simply the most powerful Dragonborn in history.  The Greybeards could nearly kill people by simply talking in Dovahzul (which is actually demonstrated, considering it is stated in-game that only the Dragonborn could withstand it with no training).

      Tiber Septim's Thu'um powers depended on Wulfharth. Well, guess who *suddenly* couldn't shout anymore after he tricked his friends who just happened to be Wulfharth and Zurin into an Enatiomorphic event? Tiber Septim. Supposedly, his throat was slit. Which could very well be true, as we know that the Observer of an Enatiomorph always gets damaged in some form. Or it could be a lie. Who knows.

      I know very well what MK says, and I know very well that lore often depends on one's own perspective and understanding, but you have absolutely no evidence stating that the Daedric Princes cannot be destroyed. 

      And it is very much obvious that it wasn't his own, as he sacrificed one of his companions (you can choose) to Akatosh in order to gain it. But, the fact is that he used this power to fight against Molag Bal. 

      He could've very simply just walked away, returned to Nirn just like he did so often before. He chose not to. He fought Molag. Forced him to release the souls. Note: Did not KILL him.

      Oh, and if you want to get a glance at a few of my theories, just take a look at my first blog and this thread.

      All I can see in the first paragraph is the spouting of knowledge most of us already know.  Obviously, the point isn't about the origin of Tiber Septim's power.

      "Absolutely no evidence stating that the Daedric Princes cannot be destroyed"...Except for the fact that the divine-granted powers of the Vestige near the end of TESO could only "defeat" Molag Bal, forcing him to release thousands of souls.  Molag Bal remains just as confident as ever.


      Depends on what you consider "defeat", because Molag Bal certainly didn't treat it that way.  He acknowledged it as the simple fulfillment of prophecy of one of the Elder Scrolls.

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    • Galraen
      Galraen removed this reply because:
      It was a foolish response to a foolish response.
      03:23, November 14, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • I removed my original foolish response to a foolish response, no wense in starting a flame war.

      I'd also like to apologise for taking, or at lest helping to take, this thread way off topic.

      As I see it we can gauge the final power of some of the protagonists, at least those who effectively die at the end of the respective games.

      The Agent from Daggerfall was an exceptionally powerful character, but IMHO, nowhere near powerful enough to challenge a Daedric Prince head on,even on Nirn.

      The Champion of Cyrodil may have been able to take on the newly reformed Jyffalag, but even that is open to debate as Jyggalag wanted to lose as I see it. Repeating the feat of Pelinal and, thanks to Talos, being able to go one step further is remarkable, but not in itself enough to make me consider him super powerful. As I stated it is possible for him to take on Mehrunes Dagon, but only by exploiting the overpowerful nature of Alchemy in Olbivion, not by his own raw power. Also as far as I'm concerned he effectively succumbed in one way or another as a result of interfering in the plans of the Daedric Princes.

      There is no way of knowing the true power that the Nerevarine may have achieved, even Bethesda couldn't (so far) come up with an outcome for her, in true Holywood Western style she just rode off into the sunset. I believe she had the potential to have rivalled even a Daedric Prince, but would Azura really have allowed that to happen? We'll never know unless a lated Elder Scroll reveals her fate. 

      As for the Dragonborn, in a sense his story is still being written. Challenge a Daedric Prince though? Not on the Prince's realm of Oblivion, but on Nirn, probably.

      One of the problems of assessing the lore of Tamriel is that it can only be surmised through reading the in game books I believe (I could be very wrong on this), and that's extremely problematic. Everyone who has ever written a book has had their own agenda, and how do we discern fact from fiction in those books? Imagine how confused a visitor from a Galaxy far far away would be if they tried to piece together our Lore just by perusing the books in the Bodlean Library! Would they come to the conclusion that Dragons really did once exist here, and must all have been slain by a Dragonborn called George? :D

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    • An explanation why I think the Nerevarine has the potential to be the most powerful of the champions 'beyond the game'.

      She has one advantage the others don't have as far as I'm aware, time.

      Not aging doesn't just mean not getting wrinkly or suffering from aging joints, it also means no fear of senility or things like Alzheimers. This means her potential to continually learn and increase her power is almost godlike, if not actually god like eventually; providing of course she doesn't get simultaneously backstabbed by half a dozen assassins in the process! 

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    • Galraen wrote:
      I removed my original foolish response to a foolish response, no wense in starting a flame war.

      I'd also like to apologise for taking, or at lest helping to take, this thread way off topic.

      As I see it we can gauge the final power of some of the protagonists, at least those who effectively die at the end of the respective games.

      The Agent from Daggerfall was an exceptionally powerful character, but IMHO, nowhere near powerful enough to challenge a Daedric Prince head on,even on Nirn.

      The Champion of Cyrodil may have been able to take on the newly reformed Jyffalag, but even that is open to debate as Jyggalag wanted to lose as I see it. Repeating the feat of Pelinal and, thanks to Talos, being able to go one step further is remarkable, but not in itself enough to make me consider him super powerful. As I stated it is possible for him to take on Mehrunes Dagon, but only by exploiting the overpowerful nature of Alchemy in Olbivion, not by his own raw power. Also as far as I'm concerned he effectively succumbed in one way or another as a result of interfering in the plans of the Daedric Princes.

      There is no way of knowing the true power that the Nerevarine may have achieved, even Bethesda couldn't (so far) come up with an outcome for her, in true Holywood Western style she just rode off into the sunset. I believe she had the potential to have rivalled even a Daedric Prince, but would Azura really have allowed that to happen? We'll never know unless a lated Elder Scroll reveals her fate. 

      As for the Dragonborn, in a sense his story is still being written. Challenge a Daedric Prince though? Not on the Prince's realm of Oblivion, but on Nirn, probably.

      One of the problems of assessing the lore of Tamriel is that it can only be surmised through reading the in game books I believe (I could be very wrong on this), and that's extremely problematic. Everyone who has ever written a book has had their own agenda, and how do we discern fact from fiction in those books? Imagine how confused a visitor from a Galaxy far far away would be if they tried to piece together our Lore just by perusing the books in the Bodlean Library! Would they come to the conclusion that Dragons really did once exist here, and must all have been slain by a Dragonborn called George? :D

      What about the Eternal Champion?

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    • I never played Arena, so can't comment, I did try playing Arena when it was re-released a couple of years ago, but couldn't cope with the, by now, antiquated graphics.

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    • Galraen wrote:
      I never played Arena, so can't comment, I did try playing Arena when it was re-released a couple of years ago, but couldn't cope with the, by now, antiquated graphics.

      That's fine, to be honest, I have only ever played it like twice.

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    • Galraen wrote:
      I question the assumption that the Champion of Cyrodil became Sheogorath; sure the evil incarnations of him probably would, but not any incarnation that had any pretensions of being 'good'. It's an optional outcome, but not one set in stone.


      The Nerevarine or the Dragonborn could take out the Champion of Cyrodil, who whilst powerful doesn't have the power to match either or the other two, the poor sucker can't even fly! Between the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn it's a close run thing, personally I think the Nerevarine would have the edge.

      As for the protagonist in Daggerfall death at the end only happens if the agent makes the 'wrong' choice, Bethesda apparently assumes that a fatal choice was made.

      As for them all being the same character, one easy fact eliminates that argument; if the CoC and/or the Dragonborn were the Nerevarine, then they would be immune to disease, which they aren't. 

      Howeer having said all that, it comes down to personal choice; if you want them to all be the same they are, want one particular champion to be more powerful, or all of them to be Argonians, that's the way it is. When you buy the game it's yours to do what you want with, and interpret however you want, they are open ended games not books! 

      If the Last Dragonborn was ressurected as a giant dragon and let the Hero of Kvatch ride him... Mundus would be overloaded with the awesomeness and would systematically implode on itself.

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    • The hoc is invincible, so, uh, yeah....On a more serious note, The db can use shouts at whim, but it weakens his soul. The cooldown was for gameplay. Whichmeans rhe DB is right up there with the HOC. The Neravine is not to be toyed with, but he woukd fall to the DB and HOC. The agent killed a deadra lord, which is a hop away from a deadric prince. The EC... well, I dont know enough about him. The HOC and Dbare in stalemate. The dragonborn can simply FUS RO DAH him off a mountain, but he would get up. The Hero of Kvatch can spam the staff od Sheogorath on the db and draw on his face.

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    • Khaul Moon-Sword wrote: The hoc is invincible, so, uh, yeah....On a more serious note, The db can use shouts at whim, but it weakens his soul. The cooldown was for gameplay. Whichmeans rhe DB is right up there with the HOC. The Neravine is not to be toyed with, but he woukd fall to the DB and HOC. The agent killed a deadra lord, which is a hop away from a deadric prince. The EC... well, I dont know enough about him. The HOC and Dbare in stalemate. The dragonborn can simply FUS RO DAH him off a mountain, but he would get up. The Hero of Kvatch can spam the staff od Sheogorath on the db and draw on his face.


      Remember, the shouts can be absorbed by wards, probably suggesting they are classified as magic. The HoC, having access to equipment with the enchantments absorb magicka, reflect magic, and reflect damage (this one was apparently lost to the ages as its not present anymore) could easily absorb that stuff the LDB throws at him.

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    • did you know that in the elder scrolls 1: arena, you are the ethermal champion. you end up having to go into laberynthian to retrieve an artifact and thyen kill him.

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    • The open games make it impossible to tell the feats.

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    • 71.235.186.55 wrote:

      Khaul Moon-Sword wrote: The hoc is invincible, so, uh, yeah....On a more serious note, The db can use shouts at whim, but it weakens his soul. The cooldown was for gameplay. Whichmeans rhe DB is right up there with the HOC. The Neravine is not to be toyed with, but he woukd fall to the DB and HOC. The agent killed a deadra lord, which is a hop away from a deadric prince. The EC... well, I dont know enough about him. The HOC and Dbare in stalemate. The dragonborn can simply FUS RO DAH him off a mountain, but he would get up. The Hero of Kvatch can spam the staff od Sheogorath on the db and draw on his face.

      Remember, the shouts can be absorbed by wards, probably suggesting they are classified as magic. The HoC, having access to equipment with the enchantments absorb magicka, reflect magic, and reflect damage (this one was apparently lost to the ages as its not present anymore) could easily absorb that stuff the LDB throws at him.

      Well, assuming that you don't already know this, but Dragon Shouts are magic, even the wiki says so, and as far as I can remember, it's said pretty early on in the game.

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    • Well the Nerevarine killed at lest one god, two if you take out Vivec, which isn't difficult for her/him. On the other hand the CoC is capable of taking down Mehrunes Dagon if you can stop that idiot Martin from screwing things up and destroying the Amulet of Kings. 

      It's also possible that the Nerevarine is also Dragonborn, as it could be argued he or she is the offspring of Barenziah and Uriel that Uriel ordered Barenziah to murder. The Nerevarine also has access to all the enchantments and non poisonous potions that the CoC has, and even more. The Nerevarine also has one ability that neither the CoC or DB have, he or she can fly!

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    • Individual Power level, I think they are about the same level. As if the weakest hero power level was around 9000, the strongest one would be over 10,000 at the end of their storyline.

      In terms of skill before their special powers come into play; Nerevarine and Hero of Kvatch might be on the higher tier reason is other than the first dragon, the Dragonborn pretty took down majority foes with his god sent powers. Hero of Kvatch was Sheogorath but he didn't obtain that power until he finish his story, 99% of the time he won with his own skills.

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    •                         WARNING---BAD METPHOR INBOUND---WARNING

      Even if the Vestige only wounded Molag Bal , enogh wounds can kill you.

      Sure, an ant can kill you. Is it hard? Yes. Can you kill it before it kills you? Almost definetly. 

      But that doesn't mean an ant can't kill you, just means it's unlikely.

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    • Let me make one thing clear, never judge stats as a way for someone to beat another character in the lore, the Daedra are transcendant beings of mortal concepts, and cannot even be killed. So the idea that the dragonborn could defeat one simply based on their stats is assinine.

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    • Lore=Gameplay

      Gameplay often has gimmicks which don't apply to lore, such as shout cooldowns, or the fact that the dragonborn who literally killed alduin can be slain by a random bandit if you let them, meaning that what you see in game does not reperesent their true power in the lore.

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    • Janglesthemonkles wrote: Lore=Gameplay

      Gameplay often has gimmicks which don't apply to lore, such as shout cooldowns, or the fact that the dragonborn who literally killed alduin can be slain by a random bandit if you let them, meaning that what you see in game does not reperesent their true power in the lore.

      Jangles? From G+?

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    • Janglesthemonkles wrote:
      Lore=Gameplay

      More like Gameplay > Lore.

      Alduin is not a "literal raging firestorm", and the Heart of Lorkhan is not the "heart of the world".

      If either statement in the Lore was 100% true, we wouldn't have a chance to defeat Alduin, nor would the world itself exist beyond 3E427.

      In other words, never take the Lore for granted. It was never meant to be totally accurate or trustworthy.

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    • Tevin Betts wrote:

      Janglesthemonkles wrote: Lore=Gameplay

      Gameplay often has gimmicks which don't apply to lore, such as shout cooldowns, or the fact that the dragonborn who literally killed alduin can be slain by a random bandit if you let them, meaning that what you see in game does not reperesent their true power in the lore.

      Jangles? From G+?

      Yea vro, although I am mostly here to troll considering most people here are dumb as shit, case example the man above me.

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    • Janglesthemonkles wrote: I am mostly here to troll considering most people here are dumb as shit, case example the man above me.

      Interesting. I can assume the same about you for admitting to trolling.

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    • Yeah do what you wish lizard. I couldn't give the slightest fuck, yall are inept.

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    • Janglesthemonkles wrote:
      Yeah do what you wish lizard. I couldn't give the slightest fuck, yall are inept.

      You "couldn't give the slightest fuck", yet you still replied. The ineptitude is yours for actually believing that all biased accounts in lore supercede gameplay (or rather the events we see in the games).

      If anything, the only truth here is what Bethesda decides to be true in the games, not necessarily the gameplay; based purely on what events beyond the Main Quests are determined to have happened in history previous to the current game.

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    • 41.141.233.236 wrote:
      The Hero of Kvatch is definetely the most powerful, eventhough he didn't have any special attributes or powers like the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn, he fought hordes of daedric creatures and closed many Oblivion Gates, he also defeated many powerful foes such as Mankar Camoran, Mannimarco the King of Worms, Umaril, Jyggalag, and so on...

      Now that he became Sheogorath, I bet no one would be able to defeat him, unless the Nerevarine and the Dragonborn combine their forces against him, but even then, they'll have a 20% chance of defeating him!  NOT TRUE Nerevarine is the god killer, Azura told that with all her powers Nerevarine will never be defeted in combat, and he cant die of age, Nerevarine is the strongest of all champions he would defeat anyone becouse hes Keening rips away the connection of anyones power sorce, gods of Tamriel get thair powers from Stars, so texnicly one hit with keening and 2 with sunder and he wins any god, thats why he is the god killer  :D and my favorite champion


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    • 70.113.208.201 wrote:
      I still can't seem to overlook the fact that the Dragonborn is actually weak as far as the dragon blood goes. He can only use certain shouts then will have to wait for a while for SOMETHING to recharge, maybe he got a sore throat from saying one word. The shouts he does perform like fire/frost breath are also MUCH weaker than most dragons, so it's mostly the weapons, armor and "normal" magic that make him, just like the others.

      Are you really going to use a gameplay element to decide how powerful a character is lorewise? Ahem, Miraak, he doesn't 'recharge' for Shouts, Dragonborns are pretty much reality warpers

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    • If slowing time, becoming intangible, bending the minds of mortals and dragons, traveling at superhuman speeds, tearing dragons out of the sky, slaying the firstborn World Eating son of an Aedra with the use of simple words isn't regarded as powerful, I don't know what is

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    • Sure, you could say the HoK becoming Sheogorath is something but then you remember that by technicality, he's then Sheogorath, not the Hero of Kvatch anymore, just saying

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    • 118.92.169.60 wrote:
      Sure, you could say the HoK becoming Sheogorath is something but then you remember that by technicality, he's then Sheogorath, not the Hero of Kvatch anymore, just saying

      Daedra don't really hold much power outside their own realm either, something people tend to forget, sure, challenging a Daedra in their own realm is pretty much suicide (Even ask Miraak), the one time I recall a Daedra actually breaking the barriers into Nirn, guess what stopped him, a Dragonborn (One without the Shouty Reality Warping Powers I might add), yeah the Amulet of Kings played a part in that but still, if the HoK traveled outside the Shivering Isles he didn't keep his Daedra powers did he? Hence TLD would shout him off a cliff

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    • A FANDOM user
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