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  • I am having difficulties in choosing sides..

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    • it really has no effect on game outcome, other than who 'controls' Skyrim. at the end of the Civil War quest, you can acquire eithers Ulfric's clothes or Tullius' armor. 9 times out of 10, I side with the Empire. Why? Because, in Sovgarde, Ulfric admits that he made a grave error in starting the war against the Empire. Best option, if you want to get and keep the Jagged Crown, is to side with whomever you escaped Helgen with. Hadvar is Imperial and Ralof is in the Stormcloaks.

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    • Depends on what kind of character you're playing. A law-abiding citizen type might favor the Empire, but a proud warrior sort of guy might go Stormcloak. Self-interested assassins, thieves, and roguish types could go either way depending on what you personally see as benefitting you specifically.

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    • I like the empire better, ulfric is a douche. I have beat both but I like empire better.

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    • Coppermantis wrote:
      Depends on what kind of character you're playing. A law-abiding citizen type might favor the Empire, but a proud warrior sort of guy might go Stormcloak. Self-interested assassins, thieves, and roguish types could go either way depending on what you personally see as benefitting you specifically.

      Well I think assassins rogues and theives would just stay out of it.

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    • This truly depends on you. However, if you wish me to offer some insight to what both sides stand for, here it is.

      Imperials- Trying to get Skyrim back under the control of the Empire to bring the fight to the Aldmeri Dominion.

      Stormcloaks- Liberate Skyrim to establish it as an independent country of Tamriel and lead the fight against the Aldmeri Dominion.

      Hope it Helps!

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    • The Stormcloaks have a noble cause, but the people are ass holes.

      The Imperials are oppressive and tyranical, but all of the people are really nice.

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    • Freyka Dragon-Crusher wrote:
      it really has no effect on game outcome, other than who 'controls' Skyrim. at the end of the Civil War quest, you can acquire eithers Ulfric's clothes or Tullius' armor. 9 times out of 10, I side with the Empire. Why? Because, in Sovgarde, Ulfric admits that he made a grave error in starting the war against the Empire. Best option, if you want to get and keep the Jagged Crown, is to side with whomever you escaped Helgen with. Hadvar is Imperial and Ralof is in the Stormcloaks.

      Sick of people saying that Ulfric regrets starting the war because he admits he was wrong. For the last time Ulfric regretted the way because it gave Alduin more souls to eat not because he regretted standing up for the people that were being kidnapped and murdered by the empire and thalmor.

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    • Phantasys wrote:
      Freyka Dragon-Crusher wrote:
      it really has no effect on game outcome, other than who 'controls' Skyrim. at the end of the Civil War quest, you can acquire eithers Ulfric's clothes or Tullius' armor. 9 times out of 10, I side with the Empire. Why? Because, in Sovgarde, Ulfric admits that he made a grave error in starting the war against the Empire. Best option, if you want to get and keep the Jagged Crown, is to side with whomever you escaped Helgen with. Hadvar is Imperial and Ralof is in the Stormcloaks.
      Sick of people saying that Ulfric regrets starting the war because he admits he was wrong. For the last time Ulfric regretted the way because it gave Alduin more souls to eat not because he regretted standing up for the people that were being kidnapped and murdered by the empire and thalmor.

      fact is, he started the war and came to regret it when he found himself in Sovngarde (provided the player sides with the Empire. Ulfric won't be there if sided with the Stormcloaks.) doesn't matter much that it gave Alduin more souls to ensare, just the FACT THAT ULFRIC REGRETS STARTING THE UPRISING.

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    • Freyka Dragon-Crusher wrote:
      Phantasys wrote:
      Freyka Dragon-Crusher wrote:
      it really has no effect on game outcome, other than who 'controls' Skyrim. at the end of the Civil War quest, you can acquire eithers Ulfric's clothes or Tullius' armor. 9 times out of 10, I side with the Empire. Why? Because, in Sovgarde, Ulfric admits that he made a grave error in starting the war against the Empire. Best option, if you want to get and keep the Jagged Crown, is to side with whomever you escaped Helgen with. Hadvar is Imperial and Ralof is in the Stormcloaks.
      Sick of people saying that Ulfric regrets starting the war because he admits he was wrong. For the last time Ulfric regretted the way because it gave Alduin more souls to eat not because he regretted standing up for the people that were being kidnapped and murdered by the empire and thalmor.
      fact is, he started the war and came to regret it when he found himself in Sovngarde (provided the player sides with the Empire. Ulfric won't be there if sided with the Stormcloaks.) doesn't matter much that it gave Alduin more souls to ensare, just the FACT THAT ULFRIC REGRETS STARTING THE UPRISING.

      So...your point? Ulfric didn't regret starting the revolution only the bloodshed and how he didn't adress Alduin's return before his crusade. Doesn't make the empire right either way and Rikke also regrets causing so much bloodshed during the CW. So by your logic the empire is equally wrong.

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    • regardless of the POV, not once in my original statement did I give the reason for Ulfric's regret, so your qouting of my answer was pointless. learn to properly read a post before qouting and putting in an answer that does not suit the need.

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    • Joining Imperial = stopping a rebellion, restore order in the empire and bow down to aldmeri dominion. 

      Joining Stormcloaks = nord supremacist fighting for their homeland and beliefs.

      I'll go with ulfric anytime to fight the aldmeri dominion. (regardless of whether they win the war, u get to kill the emperor anyway)

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    • 1.32.75.0 wrote: Joining Imperial = stopping a rebellion, restore order in the empire and bow down to aldmeri dominion. 

      Joining Stormcloaks = nord supremacist fighting for their homeland and beliefs.

      I'll go with ulfric anytime to fight the aldmeri dominion. (regardless of whether they win the war, u get to kill the emperor anyway)

      Ulfric is the one backed by the Dominion.

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    • The game only implies ulfric's release benefits the aldmeri dominion ( start of civil war ). However it also stated a stormcloak victory is to be avoided ( skyrim would fight the dominion for their homeland and beliefs ).

      If tullius wins, he will "double" the dragonborn's wages and wait for his next order. He cannot fight the aldmeri dominion unless the empire wants to do so. ( empire is quite happy paying gold to the aldmeri dominion ).

      Hammerfell gained independance and remained intact by fighting the aldmeri dominion. Otherwise it would be sliced like a pizza and given piece by piece to aldmeri dominion.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote: The game only implies ulfric's release benefits the aldmeri dominion ( start of civil war ). However it also stated a stormcloak victory is to be avoided ( skyrim would fight the dominion for their homeland and beliefs ).

      If tullius wins, he will "double" the dragonborn's wages and wait for his next order. He cannot fight the aldmeri dominion unless the empire wants to do so. ( empire is quite happy paying gold to the aldmeri dominion ).

      Hammerfell gained independance and remained intact by fighting the aldmeri dominion. Otherwise it would be sliced like a pizza and given piece by piece to aldmeri dominion.

      No, it should be avoided because an ongoing war harms the Empire more.

      Empire isn't paying gold to the Dominion.

      Hammerfell isn't fighting the Dominion.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote:
      The game only implies ulfric's release benefits the aldmeri dominion ( start of civil war ). 

      IIRC, there's cut content in Skyrim where Elenwen would try save Ulfric before the execution at Gelgen. "General Tullius, I'm taking this man into Thalmor custody!" and Tullius tells her to fuck off, essentially. To me, that says a lot about the Thalmor's view of the Civil War.

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    • The Concordat's terms included :

      1) The cession by the Empire of a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion.

      Hammerfell, however, was unwilling to accept the loss of so much territory and continued to fight, forcing Titus II to officially release Hammerfell from status as an Imperial province in order to maintain the treaty, but not before allowing most of the legionnaires stationed in Hammerfell to be declared 'invalid', thus allowing them to continue fighting. The Redguards were eventually able to fight the Aldmeri to a standstill, leading to the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180, as a result of the signing of this treaty the Aldmeri forces completely withdrew from Hammerfell. Southern Hammerfell was, after five years of continuous warfare, left in a devastated state, and Hammerfell remained an independent province. ( The redguards fought the aldmeri dominion and push them out of hammerfell. )

      2) A large tribute of gold would be paid to the Aldmeri Dominion. ( Empire pays gold. )

      3) The worship of Talos would be banned from the empire. ( Empire betrays the nords. )

      4) The Blades would be forced to disband. ( Empire betrays the blades. )

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    • 1.32.72.229 wrote: The Concordat's terms included :

      1) The cession by the Empire of a large portion of southern Hammerfell to the Aldmeri Dominion.

      Hammerfell, however, was unwilling to accept the loss of so much territory and continued to fight, forcing Titus II to officially release Hammerfell from status as an Imperial province in order to maintain the treaty, but not before allowing most of the legionnaires stationed in Hammerfell to be declared 'invalid', thus allowing them to continue fighting. The Redguards were eventually able to fight the Aldmeri to a standstill, leading to the Second Treaty of Stros M'kai in 4E 180, as a result of the signing of this treaty the Aldmeri forces completely withdrew from Hammerfell. Southern Hammerfell was, after five years of continuous warfare, left in a devastated state, and Hammerfell remained an independent province. ( The redguards fought the aldmeri dominion and push them out of hammerfell. )

      2) A large tribute of gold would be paid to the Aldmeri Dominion. ( Empire pays gold. )

      3) The worship of Talos would be banned from the empire. ( Empire betrays the nords. )

      4) The Blades would be forced to disband. ( Empire betrays the blades. )

      3 out of these 4 were part of the ultimatum that the Thalmor proposed, the WGC was nearly identical, but not identical. There's no evidence they paid tributes.

      Also the Empire didn't betray the Nords, for they didn't enforce the ban and the Blades had betrayed the Empire wayy before the WGC was signed.

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    • On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included 1) disbandment of the Blades 2) outlawing the worship of Talos 3) ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. 4) staggering tributes

      The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175 between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that ended the Great War. The conditions of the treaty: 1) disbanded the Blades 2) outlawed the worship of Talos in the Empire ( Empire bans Talos worshiping. ) 3) delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion. Emperor Titus Mede II made these concessions to the Thalmor hierarchy in order to give the Imperial Legion time to recover its strength, as it had been decimated in the Battle of the Red Ring. ( He also saved some gold. )

      The Blades were among the first to see the growing threat of the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion. Unlike the Penitus Oculatus, the Blades were not bound to Imperial policy and could operate freely, and thus earned the lasting hatred of the Thalmor. ( They fought the thalmor. )

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    • 1.32.72.229 wrote: On the 30th of Frostfall, 4E 171, the Aldmeri Dominion sent an ambassador to the Imperial City with a gift in a covered cart and an ultimatum for the new Emperor. The long list of demands included 1) disbandment of the Blades 2) outlawing the worship of Talos 3) ceding large sections of Hammerfell to the Dominion. 4) staggering tributes

      The White-Gold Concordat was a treaty signed in 4E 175 between the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion that ended the Great War. The conditions of the treaty: 1) disbanded the Blades 2) outlawed the worship of Talos in the Empire ( Empire bans Talos worshiping. ) 3) delivered a large portion of southern Hammerfell into the control of the Aldmeri Dominion. Emperor Titus Mede II made these concessions to the Thalmor hierarchy in order to give the Imperial Legion time to recover its strength, as it had been decimated in the Battle of the Red Ring. ( He also saved some gold. )

      The Blades were among the first to see the growing threat of the Thalmor and the Aldmeri Dominion. Unlike the Penitus Oculatus, the Blades were not bound to Imperial policy and could operate freely, and thus earned the lasting hatred of the Thalmor. ( They fought the thalmor. )

      Now where does it say the WGC included the tributes?

      The PO also fought the Thalmor, just indirectly. And yes, the fact that the Blades were not bound to Imperial policy already proves the Empire couldn't betray it, for it had nothing to do with it.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre - if I could get a little clarification on a couple of your arguments as I work on building my own knowledge of the lore...

      1) Above you state that the Empire didn't betray the Nords because they didn't enforce the ban on the worship of Talos.  However, wouldn't allowing the Thalmor the freedom to travel throughout Skyrim and allowing them to enforce the ban also be seen as a betrayal?

      2) IMO, the Thalmor believe that the Blades are still connected to the Empire by the fact that they executed all the agents in Summerset and Valenwood and dumped their heads on the floor in front of the Emperor on the eve of the Great War.  I also find the wording of the WGC odd...that the Empire would "disband the Blades."  I would think that if the Empire really had no control over the Blades, they would agree to stop harboring the Blades and/or agree to extradition treaties.  But, to agree to "disband the Blades" makes the Empire sound complicit in their dealings.  Yes, I have read that the Blades stopped beholding to the throne after the Septim Dynasty ended, but something still doesn't connect for me.

      Your thoughts are appreciated.

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    • There should be added a count of how many threads about this were made

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    • A year ago, I'd have suggested backing the Empire. But now I'd recommend supporting the rebellion. The Mede Empire can piss off back to Cyrodiil for all I care.

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    • BadWolf1677 wrote: Blademaster Jauffre - if I could get a little clarification on a couple of your arguments as I work on building my own knowledge of the lore...

      1) Above you state that the Empire didn't betray the Nords because they didn't enforce the ban on the worship of Talos.  However, wouldn't allowing the Thalmor the freedom to travel throughout Skyrim and allowing them to enforce the ban also be seen as a betrayal?

      2) IMO, the Thalmor believe that the Blades are still connected to the Empire by the fact that they executed all the agents in Summerset and Valenwood and dumped their heads on the floor in front of the Emperor on the eve of the Great War.  I also find the wording of the WGC odd...that the Empire would "disband the Blades."  I would think that if the Empire really had no control over the Blades, they would agree to stop harboring the Blades and/or agree to extradition treaties.  But, to agree to "disband the Blades" makes the Empire sound complicit in their dealings.  Yes, I have read that the Blades stopped beholding to the throne after the Septim Dynasty ended, but something still doesn't connect for me.

      Your thoughts are appreciated.

      1) This "freedom", was only allowed after the Markarth Incident, an event during which Ulfric was conspiring with the Thalmor. Everyone still had their shrines of Talos prior to Ulfric retaking Markarth -- because when Ulfric demanded free Talos worship and the Thalmor "found out", they send their agents, the Justicars, as treaty enforcers to make sure the Emperor wasn't lying.

      Long story short, the Stormcloaks betrayed the Nords, which is quite ironic since they claim to be pro-Talos and pro-Nord.

      2) The Blades are sworn to guide and protect the Dragonborn, that's why they once were affiliated with the Empire, due to the Septims being Dragonborn. They are not an arm of the Imperial Government and are not bound to Imperial Policy, hence why they were replaced by the Penitus Oculatus early in the Fourth Era. The Blades continued their existance, but as protectors of Tamriel.

      Why the Thalmor put a connection between the Empire and the Blades seems rather logical to me, we must not forget that the Thalmor cut off all kinds of contact with the Empire for 70 years after 4E 23, which means that only in 4E 93 they started getting in contact again. They did not know that much about the Empire (hence why they thought the Empire would be stronger during the GW than it was) so they probably thought that the Blades were never replaced.

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    • One thing I find telling about the Empire's view on the Talos worship ban is what happens when they take control of Whiterun during the Civil War.

      They lock up Heimskr, and most seem to assume it was because of his Talos preaching. But both the shrine and statue of Talos he's ranting in front of remain untouched. Most likely Heimskr is locked up because of his "rise up, Stormcloaks!" line, which is inciting rebellion against the Empire and Balgruuf.

      The fact that the statue and shrine of Talos aren't touched shows that the Empire doesn't really want to enforce the treaty. This, the Markarth incident, and Imperial-aligned NPCs who still worship Talos, makes me think the Empire is just biding its time before they can fight back againt the Dominion.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: One thing I find telling about the Empire's view on the Talos worship ban is what happens when they take control of Whiterun during the Civil War.

      They lock up Heimskr, and most seem to assume it was because of his Talos preaching. But both the shrine and statue of Talos he's ranting in front of remain untouched. Most likely Heimskr is locked up because of his "rise up, Stormcloaks!" line, which is inciting rebellion against the Empire and Balgruuf.

      The fact that the statue and shrine of Talos aren't touched shows that the Empire doesn't really want to enforce the treaty. This, the Markarth incident, and Imperial-aligned NPCs who still worship Talos, makes me think the Empire is just biding its time before they can fight back againt the Dominion.

      Surprises me that you didn't even mention Tullius' dialogue during Season Unending.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Surprises me that you didn't even mention Tullius' dialogue during Season Unending.

      That seemed too obvious, I didn't think to include it :P

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    • In 4E 174, Markarth and the Reach was subjected to what is known today as the Forsworn Uprising. When the Third Aldmeri Dominion invaded the Imperial City during the Great War, the Imperial Legion all but turned a blind eye to the other provinces. The native Breton people of the Reach, called the Reachmen, took this opportunity to seize control of the city. This was only possible as the Imperial Legionnaires stationed in Markarth were recalled to fight, leaving the city very vulnerable. (Empire did not bother about skyrim.)

      During this time, Hrolfdir, his son Igmund, and their Imperial colleagues sought help from Ulfric Stormcloak in ousting the Reachmen invaders. They promised Ulfric that if he re-took the Reach, then Hrolfdir as Jarl would allow free worship of Talos - an act that was recently outlawed at the end of the war. Ulfric agreed and marched his militia to the gates of Markarth and ruthlessly retook the city using the power of his Thu'um. (Ulfric cares about skyrim and talos worshipping.)

      Eventually, the Empire rescinded upon the agreement due to pressure from the Aldmeri Dominion. Hrolfdir turned on Ulfric and his men and aided the Empire in arresting them. Ulfric and his militia were expelled from the city and imprisoned shortly after. This betrayal left Ulfric bitter towards the Empire and is considered to be the initial conception of the Stormcloak rebellion.

      Source: Markarth Incident

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    • Draevan13 wrote: One thing I find telling about the Empire's view on the Talos worship ban is what happens when they take control of Whiterun during the Civil War.

      They lock up Heimskr, and most seem to assume it was because of his Talos preaching. But both the shrine and statue of Talos he's ranting in front of remain untouched. Most likely Heimskr is locked up because of his "rise up, Stormcloaks!" line, which is inciting rebellion against the Empire and Balgruuf.

      The fact that the statue and shrine of Talos aren't touched shows that the Empire doesn't really want to enforce the treaty. This, the Markarth incident, and Imperial-aligned NPCs who still worship Talos, makes me think the Empire is just biding its time before they can fight back againt the Dominion.

      Give it time. The Empire took down the Talos shrine in the Temple of the Divines in Solitude and that's the Imperial capital in Skyrim. If the elves wanted that statue down, they can take it down.

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    • 1.32.72.184 wrote: In 4E 174, Markarth and the Reach was subjected to what is known today as the Forsworn Uprising. When the Third Aldmeri Dominion invaded the Imperial City during the Great War, the Imperial Legion all but turned a blind eye to the other provinces. The native Breton people of the Reach, called the Reachmen, took this opportunity to seize control of the city. This was only possible as the Imperial Legionnaires stationed in Markarth were recalled to fight, leaving the city very vulnerable. (Empire did not bother about skyrim.)

      During this time, Hrolfdir, his son Igmund, and their Imperial colleagues sought help from Ulfric Stormcloak in ousting the Reachmen invaders. They promised Ulfric that if he re-took the Reach, then Hrolfdir as Jarl would allow free worship of Talos - an act that was recently outlawed at the end of the war. Ulfric agreed and marched his militia to the gates of Markarth and ruthlessly retook the city using the power of his Thu'um. (Ulfric cares about skyrim and talos worshipping.)

      Eventually, the Empire rescinded upon the agreement due to pressure from the Aldmeri Dominion. Hrolfdir turned on Ulfric and his men and aided the Empire in arresting them. Ulfric and his militia were expelled from the city and imprisoned shortly after. This betrayal left Ulfric bitter towards the Empire and is considered to be the initial conception of the Stormcloak rebellion.

      Source: Markarth Incident

      It wasn't an "Empire didn't care about Skyrim", it was more of a "Skyrim has no threats, so we use its forces to retake the capital". They did not know that the Reachmen would take Markarth.

      During this time Ulfric was working with the Thalmor, aka Ulfric cares about appeasing his Thalmor masters and getting power, hence why he demanded free Talos worship, despite the Talos ban not being enforced.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Draevan13 wrote: One thing I find telling about the Empire's view on the Talos worship ban is what happens when they take control of Whiterun during the Civil War.

      They lock up Heimskr, and most seem to assume it was because of his Talos preaching. But both the shrine and statue of Talos he's ranting in front of remain untouched. Most likely Heimskr is locked up because of his "rise up, Stormcloaks!" line, which is inciting rebellion against the Empire and Balgruuf.

      The fact that the statue and shrine of Talos aren't touched shows that the Empire doesn't really want to enforce the treaty. This, the Markarth incident, and Imperial-aligned NPCs who still worship Talos, makes me think the Empire is just biding its time before they can fight back againt the Dominion.

      Give it time. The Empire took down the Talos shrine in the Temple of the Divines in Solitude and that's the Imperial capital in Skyrim. If the elves wanted that statue down, they can take it down.

      Who says the Empire took it down?

      And you're yet to prove it, why couldn't they do so in Markarth -- where the "free Talos worship" was allowed? They have a head of the Thalmor located right there, so why is that shrine and why is that statue still there?

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Give it time. The Empire took down the Talos shrine in the Temple of the Divines in Solitude and that's the Imperial capital in Skyrim. If the elves wanted that statue down, they can take it down.

      The enforcement of shrine removal does seem a bit odd and erratic. In Markarth, for example, where the whole kerfuffle over Talos worship in Skyrim started, which is an Imperial Hold, and where there's a permanent squad of Thalmor Justiciars... the shrine and statue of Talos are still up. I don't get it.

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    • Doesnt make sense why ulfric will want to conspire with the thalmor to gain skyrim independance and fight them.

      The thalmor are smart to ban talos worshipping and rob hammerfell's land. Divide and conquer!

      The empire are smart to use all her provinces to barter for survival. They took down the talos shrine in solitude as a sign of goodwill to their aldmeri dominion masters.

      The only stupid people are in hammerfell / skyrim which fought bravely for their independance without the empire's help.

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    • 1.32.72.184 wrote: Doesnt make sense why ulfric will want to conspire with the thalmor to gain skyrim independance and fight them.

      The thalmor are smart to ban talos worshipping and rob hammerfell's land. Divide and conquer!

      The empire are smart to use all her provinces to barter for survival. They took down the talos shrine in solitude as a sign of goodwill to their aldmeri dominion masters.

      The only stupid people are in hammerfell / skyrim which fought bravely for their independance without the empire's help.

      Well he stopped being their agent when they forced him to be jailed.... Hence why the whole rebellion started, he wanted them out when they backstabbed him after he backstabbed the Empire...

      And you Stormcloaks are doing exactly what they want.

      Who says the Imperials took it down? There's no evidence for that.

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    • Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"

      Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." (Skyrim will fight the aldmeri dominion.)

      Tullius: "His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn the walls of the Imperial City! Let this day be a final warning to those who still call themselves Stormcloaks! We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man! Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here! In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation for the widows of your fallen comrades!" (Thanks mate, dragonborn didnt get a cent! )

      Now that Ulfric is dead, will there be peace? "The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large, the people here desire peace. What I'm not so sure about is the peace we've made with the Thalmor. But we'll keep that between the two of us, alright?" (Empire plans to keep the peace as long as possible.)

      After Ulfric's Death....

      Rikke: "Talos be with you..."

      Tullius: "What was that, Legate?" ( Empire doesnt approve Talos worshipping.)

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    • 60.50.134.3 wrote: Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"

      Ulfric: "The Empire is weak, obsolete. Look at how far we've come and with so little. When we're done rooting out Imperial influence here at home, then we will take our war to the Aldmeri Dominion." (Skyrim will fight the aldmeri dominion.)

      Tullius: "His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn the walls of the Imperial City! Let this day be a final warning to those who still call themselves Stormcloaks! We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man! Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here! In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation for the widows of your fallen comrades!" (Thanks mate, dragonborn didnt get a cent! )

      Now that Ulfric is dead, will there be peace? "The fiercest of the remaining rebels will continue to harass us, but by and large, the people here desire peace. What I'm not so sure about is the peace we've made with the Thalmor. But we'll keep that between the two of us, alright?" (Empire plans to keep the peace as long as possible.)

      After Ulfric's Death....

      Rikke: "Talos be with you..."

      Tullius: "What was that, Legate?" ( Empire doesnt approve Talos worshipping.)

      Words mean nothing when they aren't backed up by deeds, but rather, contradicted by deeds.

      And lose.

      Dragonborn got Tullius' sword, nothing he "didn't get a cent".

      And?

      It does approve of it.

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    • Have to agree with you words mean nothing if arent backed up by deeds

      1) Empire gave Hammerfell's land to aldmeri dominion and banned Talos worshipping. They allow the aldmeri dominion to patrol the street of skyrim capturing and killing anyone they "suspected" worshipping Talos worship. Peace for the imperials, slaughter house for the nords and the redguards can sleep on the street.

      2) Dragonborn is not part of the imperial army, he received his sword as a mercenary. ( he didnt get a cent.)

      3) Ulfric agreed and marched his militia to the gates of Markarth and ruthlessly retook the city using the power of his Thu'um. ( Skyrim would appreciate that, the empire probably make another "good deal" with the Reachman. )

      "Allegedly during this time, the Kingdom was relatively peaceful, and the Reachmen ruled their lands more or less fairly and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom."

      4) Ulfric may be racist but "SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORD!" He is just another nord refused to let the empire divide skyrim. ( Nords are okay with visitors, but when some visitor comes in and start selling their house im sure no 1 approves that. )

      Rikke: "Step aside Galmar. We're here to accept Ulfric's surrender."

      Ulfric: "I'll never surrender Skyrim into the hands of a corrupt and dying Empire."

      Rikke: "Skyrim doesn't belong to you, Ulfric."

      Ulfric: "No... But I belong to her."

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    • I think both ulfric and tullius is a loser. Ulfric shouts and kill a high king, Tullius cant even shout.

      We the dragonborn shouted the emperor to pieces and will soon claim the entire empire! FUS RO DAH! 100 imperial and nords dead....

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote: Have to agree with you words mean nothing if arent backed up by deeds

      1) Empire gave Hammerfell's land to aldmeri dominion and banned Talos worshipping. They allow the aldmeri dominion to patrol the street of skyrim capturing and killing anyone they "suspected" worshipping Talos worship. Peace for the imperials, slaughter house for the nords and the redguards can sleep on the street.

      2) Dragonborn is not part of the imperial army, he received his sword as a mercenary. ( he didnt get a cent.)

      3) Ulfric agreed and marched his militia to the gates of Markarth and ruthlessly retook the city using the power of his Thu'um. ( Skyrim would appreciate that, the empire probably make another "good deal" with the Reachman. )

      "Allegedly during this time, the Kingdom was relatively peaceful, and the Reachmen ruled their lands more or less fairly and were making overtures to be recognized by the Empire as a legitimate kingdom."

      4) Ulfric may be racist but "SKYRIM BELONGS TO THE NORD!" He is just another nord refused to let the empire divide skyrim. ( Nords are okay with visitors, but when some visitor comes in and start selling their house im sure no 1 approves that. )

      Rikke: "Step aside Galmar. We're here to accept Ulfric's surrender."

      Ulfric: "I'll never surrender Skyrim into the hands of a corrupt and dying Empire."

      Rikke: "Skyrim doesn't belong to you, Ulfric."

      Ulfric: "No... But I belong to her."

      1) The Thalmor weren't in Skyrim until Ulfric drew them there. The Redguards get to blame themselves for that, not the Empire.

      2) Lmao, yes he was part of the Imperial army, he became a Legate and Tullius tells him to "keep his sword".

      3) No Skyrim didn't. Ulfric's to blame for the Forsworn being out there killing and raiding innocent people and villages. The Reach being its own Kingdom is a lot better for Skyrim and the Empire.

      4) Your last claim makes no sense and is utterly irrelevant.

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    • 1) Thalmor plotted the war of skyrim and the empire. Ulfric is Jarl of Windhelm, he didnt drew them there. ( Indirectly he drew the empire and the thalmor by worshipping talos and liberating the reach. )

      The Redguards fought for their independance so they still have a land to call their own. ( The empire gave their lands to the thalmor. )

      2) Unpaid Legate... exchange a sword for skyrim is a good trade.

      3) Forsworn took the land from the nords to call their own. Nords are proud people, they will fight for their land. If werent for Ulfric, the empire would have given it to the Forsworn or Aldmeri Dominion for peace.

      4) Ulfric is fighting for skyrim and Tullius is trying to restore peace in the empire's provinces. Its even okay to let thalmor capture and kill anyone they "suspected" worshipping Talos.

      Regardless of Stormcloak Victory or Tullius Victory the empire loses. Dragonborn kills the emperor and the empire is left without a leader.

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    • 115.133.88.174 wrote: 1) Thalmor plotted the war of skyrim and the empire. Ulfric is Jarl of Windhelm, he didnt drew them there. ( Indirectly he drew the empire and the thalmor by worshipping talos and liberating the reach. )

      The Redguards fought for their independance so they still have a land to call their own. ( The empire gave their lands to the thalmor. )

      2) Unpaid Legate... exchange a sword for skyrim is a good trade.

      3) Forsworn took the land from the nords to call their own. Nords are proud people, they will fight for their land. If werent for Ulfric, the empire would have given it to the Forsworn or Aldmeri Dominion for peace.

      4) Ulfric is fighting for skyrim and Tullius is trying to restore peace in the empire's provinces. Its even okay to let thalmor capture and kill anyone they "suspected" worshipping Talos.

      Regardless of Stormcloak Victory or Tullius Victory the empire loses. Dragonborn kills the emperor and the empire is left without a leader.

      1) Yes they did, when Ulfric was still working for them. He had direct, willing contact with them prior to the so-called Markarth Incident. He knew full well what he was doing, but when the Thalmor backstabbed him het got mad.

      The Empire didn't give it, since it was already largely conqeured by the Dominion.

      2) You get paid all the time, do you even own Skyrim? Do you even do quests?

      3) Because it's their homeland. The Forsworn have every right to rule over their lands.

      4) No he isn't, being racist and driving a countries' millitary and economy into the ground isn't helping.

      Mede's death isn't canon.

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    • Playing a blackmage without much interest on mundane things, but i may join the rebelion just because i hate the thalmor.

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    • I just did the empire's story which I just chop of ulfric and the emperor's head, trap their soul in a black soul gem and dumb their naked body on the table. By the way killing the emperor is part of dark brotherhood's original quest and requires no mod.

      Is Jauffre's the only one looking at Ulfric and the thalmor's private message? I havent even seen a quest where Ulfric or his agent even meets a thalmor. I've only seen thalmor capturing random nords around the land. There is only 1 arrangement between the empire and thalmor to capture Ulfric. After that incident the thalmor arranged for ulfric to be release and start a civil war.

      By the way the empire and skyrim are evently match, the dragonborn will decides skyrim's future. Fight for freedom with ulfric or fight for peace with tullius.

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    • 60.50.254.166 wrote: I just did the empire's story which I just chop of ulfric and the emperor's head, trap their soul in a black soul gem and dumb their naked body on the table. By the way killing the emperor is part of dark brotherhood's original quest and requires no mod.

      Is Jauffre's the only one looking at Ulfric and the thalmor's private message? I havent even seen a quest where Ulfric or his agent even meets a thalmor. I've only seen thalmor capturing random nords around the land. There is only 1 arrangement between the empire and thalmor to capture Ulfric. After that incident the thalmor arranged for ulfric to be release and start a civil war.

      By the way the empire and skyrim are evently match, the dragonborn will decides skyrim's future. Fight for freedom with ulfric or fight for peace with tullius.

      The DB questline isn't canon yet.

      It is heavily implied that the Empire is winning the war.

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    • The empire cannot win without the dragonborn joining their side. Tullius have the empire's legion and Ulfric have his stormcloaks. The nords are divided 50/50 in their choice as both fractions have their pros and cons. ( non is more superior than the other. )

      If Ulfric win = Independant and united Skyrim. They can secure its borders and drive the Thalmor out of their lands, but they will have to face the aldmeri dominion later. ( Not necessary the thalmor will win, the redguards of hammerfell already proved that. )

      If Tullius win = Empire regains control of Skyrim and the land remains peaceful until the Thalmor's next move. Hopefully a more capable emperor takes over the throne and deals with the aldmeri dominion.

      As long as the dragonborn chooses a side and ends the civil war the thalmor dont stand a chance. 

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    • 60.53.61.102 wrote: The empire cannot win without the dragonborn joining their side. Tullius have the empire's legion and Ulfric have his stormcloaks. The nords are divided 50/50 in their choice as both fractions have their pros and cons. ( non is more superior than the other. )

      If Ulfric win = Independant and united Skyrim. They can secure its borders and drive the Thalmor out of their lands, but they will have to face the aldmeri dominion later. ( Not necessary the thalmor will win, the redguards of hammerfell already proved that. )

      If Tullius win = Empire regains control of Skyrim and the land remains peaceful until the Thalmor's next move. Hopefully a more capable emperor takes over the throne and deals with the aldmeri dominion.

      As long as the dragonborn chooses a side and ends the civil war the thalmor dont stand a chance. 

      Is that why Galmar says that the Stormcloaks are getting massacred by the Imperials? Is that why Tullius was able to infiltrate into the capital Hold of the Stormcloaks and ambush Ulfric without being hindered? Is that why the Imperials were able to take out Shor's Watchtower? Is that why there's another Imperial army assembling at Pale Pass, ready to boost the Empire's numbers in Skyrim? Is that why Whiterun backs the Empire?

      Face it, the logical conclusion is an Imperial victory.


      And no, they can't secure their borders with a Stormcloak victory, since the Stormcloaks will be stretched thin. And the Thalmor will come back, they left Hammerfell because they wanted to, Skyrim's an easy target for them.

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    • Hammerfell is nearest to the thalmor, skyrim is way north. The thalmor have to fight through the empire. Empire victory doesnt mean they can beat yhe thalmor as the thalmor were given free reign across the skyrim and empire to "capture and kill talos worshippers."

      No, the empire needs the dragonborn to win. They have advantage early in the war (empire legionnaire) but since alduin ruined the excecution the stormcloaks have been gaining strength. Where the dragonborn stands in whiterun decides the fate of skyrim.

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    • 60.53.61.158 wrote: Hammerfell is nearest to the thalmor, skyrim is way north. The thalmor have to fight through the empire. Empire victory doesnt mean they can beat yhe thalmor as the thalmor were given free reign across the skyrim and empire to "capture and kill talos worshippers."

      No, the empire needs the dragonborn to win. They have advantage early in the war (empire legionnaire) but since alduin ruined the excecution the stormcloaks have been gaining strength. Where the dragonborn stands in whiterun decides the fate of skyrim.

      No they don't, they can sail around. And the Thalmor themselves state that an Imperial Victory would harm their overall position in Skyrim, because the only reason why they are in Skyrim is because there's an open rebellion fighting to worship Talos. They aren't given free reign.

      Nope, it does not. The Stormcloaks are getting massacred by the Imperials, a proper Imperial army is assembling at Pale Pass, Whiterun will join the Empire, everything points to an Imperial victory.

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    • The thalmor can sail to Skyrim and be butchered by the nords. The worst kind of strategy to fight when u have no escape route and supplies easily cut off. The dosier clearly states either a empire or stormcloak victory is to be avoided. During the quest, there are random nords being captured by the thalmor.

      If u join the empire, whiterun is under siege from Ulfric. If u join the stormcloaks, u attack whiterun together with Ulfric. The outcome of this battle determines which side goes on the offensive. The empire cannot attack as Whiterun does not want any legionnaire in the city unless ulfric attacks. Ulfric cannot attack without the dragonborn opening the gates of whiterun. There isnt anything pointing towards imperial victory unless the dragonborn joins them. The dragonborn will decide the outcome and future of skyrim.

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    • 1.32.71.168 wrote: The thalmor can sail to Skyrim and be butchered by the nords. The worst kind of strategy to fight when u have no escape route and supplies easily cut off. The dosier clearly states either a empire or stormcloak victory is to be avoided. During the quest, there are random nords being captured by the thalmor.

      If u join the empire, whiterun is under siege from Ulfric. If u join the stormcloaks, u attack whiterun together with Ulfric. The outcome of this battle determines which side goes on the offensive. The empire cannot attack as Whiterun does not want any legionnaire in the city unless ulfric attacks. Ulfric cannot attack without the dragonborn opening the gates of whiterun. There isnt anything pointing towards imperial victory unless the dragonborn joins them. The dragonborn will decide the outcome and future of skyrim.

      The Nords won't butcher them, since the Stormcloaks are weak. Solitude is ripe for the taking. The dossier states that a Stormcloak victory should be avoided, while an Imperial one harms them.

      And yes there is, all the evidence points to an Imperial victory, from a lore-friendly pov, the LDB did not participate in the CW, for this reason, Whiterun backs the Empire. Since Galmar says the Stormcloaks are getting massacred by the Imperials, it's safe to say that the Stormcloaks' invasion of Whiterun will fail.

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    • My oppinion is that the Stormcloaks are better. 

      Besides the fact that the game opens with the Imperials executing you, even though you aren't even a soldier, I just like the Stormcloaks better. 

      Raylof is awesome. He's like you're best friend in the questline. 

      Galmar is awesome. He's old, but he's got a lot of conviction and energy. 

      And no matter what happens, I can't bring myself to hate Ulfric. He's cool, he's funny, he has a voice that just makes you want to hate elves, he has a great sense of humor, he believes in Talos, he's fighting for a good cause, he's great, I love him....

      I did play through the imperial questline as well. Or at least most of it. I will never be able to bring myeslf to kill Ulfric, so I quit when I realized I was going to have to. Or at least watch him die. I couldn't do it. 

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    • The "weak" stormcloaks with dragonborn is able to match the empire's legionnaire + whiterun's guard. Or put it in imperial's side, the "weak" stormcloaks attacks whiterun but the empire with addition of whiterun's guard needs the dovahkin to clean their mess. Looks to me its a evenly match army but the dovahkin is the one to decides who wins.

      Whiterun doesnt backs the empire unless ulfric attacks. But he also wont support ulfric against the empire. ( This indirectly causes a blockade between the 2 army. )

      The legionnaire have always been around, its a wonder how fast the stormcloak could master a rebellion to even challenge the empire and they did it. The nords must be really mad with the thalmors roaming in their land.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote: The "weak" stormcloaks with dragonborn is able to match the empire's legionnaire + whiterun's guard. Or put it in imperial's side, the "weak" stormcloaks attacks whiterun but the empire with addition of whiterun's guard needs the dovahkin to clean their mess. Looks to me its a evenly match army but the dovahkin is the one to decides who wins.

      Whiterun doesnt backs the empire unless ulfric attacks. But he also wont support ulfric against the empire. ( This indirectly causes a blockade between the 2 army. )

      The legionnaire have always been around, its a wonder how fast the stormcloak could master a rebellion to even challenge the empire and they did it. The nords must be really mad with the thalmors roaming in their land.

      Actually, if you remove Rikke and Hadvar, along with yourself, from the battle on the Imperial side, 9/10 times, the Stormcloaks only have 20% of their forces left when reaching the gates, sometimes they even get entirely beaten just by the Whiterun Guard and Imperial Soldiers.

      The Dovahkiin doesn't participate in the CW to begin with, unless if specified he did.

      And Whiterun will back the Empire regardless because Ulfric's planning an attack on it.

      Nope, it's just that Ulfric's petty millitia had already been formed in 4E 175 or prior and has been mustering ever since.

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    • 69.242.212.32 wrote: My oppinion is that the Stormcloaks are better. 

      Besides the fact that the game opens with the Imperials executing you, even though you aren't even a soldier, I just like the Stormcloaks better. 

      Raylof is awesome. He's like you're best friend in the questline. 

      Galmar is awesome. He's old, but he's got a lot of conviction and energy. 

      And no matter what happens, I can't bring myself to hate Ulfric. He's cool, he's funny, he has a voice that just makes you want to hate elves, he has a great sense of humor, he believes in Talos, he's fighting for a good cause, he's great, I love him....

      I did play through the imperial questline as well. Or at least most of it. I will never be able to bring myeslf to kill Ulfric, so I quit when I realized I was going to have to. Or at least watch him die. I couldn't do it. 

      They were going to execute you because of the Stormcloaks, you know that, right?

      Raylof isn't awesome in the slightest, he's blind and misguided. Remember how he told Lokir to "face his death with some courage" instead of trying to save his life, since stealing a Horse is not punished by death?

      Galmar isn't awesome either, he think you're weak and is a racist.

      Ulfric's a traitor and a power-hungry tyrant. Everything Ulfric fights for is something he's to blame for himself.

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    • Its still pretty impressive Ulfric mustered his own private army which is able to match the empire's legion. Anyway there is no 9/10 time empire victory, only 10/10 time dragonborn victory. 

      Ulfric's stormcloak started the civil war which may indirectly aid the thalmor in the long run. But the empire also aided the thalmor by signing the concordant. The empire captured you when ulfric was smoking weed beside you but they decided to chop 2 heads instead of one. As long as the civil war is ended the thalmor loses.

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    • 183.171.182.148 wrote:
      Its still pretty impressive Ulfric mustered his own private army which is able to match the empire's legion. Anyway there is no 9/10 time empire victory, only 10/10 time dragonborn victory. 

      Ulfric's stormcloak started the civil war which may indirectly aid the thalmor in the long run. But the empire also aided the thalmor by signing the concordant. The empire captured you when ulfric was smoking weed beside you but they decided to chop 2 heads instead of one. As long as the civil war is ended the thalmor loses.


      Ulfric's army is able to match the legion? Did you forget the legion won the war in the beginning of the game and Galmar himself says their soldiers are being massacred by the legion?

      Second, if the Empire is aiding the Thalmor, then why they don't want the Empire to win the civil war? Reading the Thalmor Dossier - Ulfric Stormcloak, you will find ”Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim." If the Emprie are aiding the Thalmor, why would an imperial victory in Skyrim be a hindrance to them?

      Third, the Empire captured you because you crossed the border illegally.

      Fourth the Thalmor loses IF AND ONLY IF the Empire win. The Thalmor states an imperial victory harms them while a Stormcloak victory does not.

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    • 183.171.182.148 wrote: Its still pretty impressive Ulfric mustered his own private army which is able to match the empire's legion. Anyway there is no 9/10 time empire victory, only 10/10 time dragonborn victory. 

      Ulfric's stormcloak started the civil war which may indirectly aid the thalmor in the long run. But the empire also aided the thalmor by signing the concordant. The empire captured you when ulfric was smoking weed beside you but they decided to chop 2 heads instead of one. As long as the civil war is ended the thalmor loses.

      His mustered millitia is on par with a locally recruited Legion of scouts and skirmishers, if anything, that goes to show how petty the Stormcloaks are. A proper Legion would destroy the Stormcloaks, a Legion that's being assembled at Pale Pass.

      The Empire is winning the war, it's hinted towards, unless if Bethesda mentions a Stormcloak victory or gives good reason for them to win, the outcome would clearly be the Empire.

      But there's a pretty big difference here, the Empire did it because they were forced to in order to survive, Ulfric did it out of his own agenda.

      They thought you were a Stormcloak, Hadvar later elaborated that you were accidentally put on a cart with Stormcloaks, moral of the story, no rebellion = no beheading.

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    • Regardless of which side you join :

      Ulfric goes the hall of valor in sovngard as a hero.

      Emperor mede will be killed by the dark brotherhood. (Sometimes headless and naked on the table).

      Tullius may double the wages of his soldier or lose his head.

      Its good for skyrim but bad for thalmor.

      Dragonborn wins.

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    • Don't know how Tullius plans on doubling his soldiers' wages. Solitude's coffers are empty because of the Civil War, Cyrodiil is ravaged because of the Great War and supposedly in strife, Morrowind or High Rock isn't going to pay for it, and I doubt the other Jarls are going to enjoy raising taxes and giving it over to the Legion to pay for it. So either Tullius lied to his men by promising them riches he can't afford and will get disappointment and resentment, or he starts pushing his weight around with the Jarls and pushing them to pay more than they bargained for; thus making political enemies either way. Either way, the Stormcloaks will be getting more recruits.

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    • After the dragonborn helps Tullius finish off Ulfric.

      Tullius: "His head will be sent to Cyrodiil where it will adorn the walls of the Imperial City! Let this day be a final warning to those who still call themselves Stormcloaks! We are turning the city over to Brunwulf Free-Winter, an honorable and faithful man! Many of you will be staying in Windhelm to aid the Jarl in restoring order and stamping out any embers of rebellion that may still smolder here! In appreciation for your exemplary service, I am doubling your pay and compensation for the widows of your fallen comrades!

      After the dragonborn helps Ulfric finish off tullius.

      Ulfric: "I am indeed Ulfric Stormcloak, and at my side the man/woman we know as Stormblade, and the world knows as the Dragonborn. And indeed, there are many that call us heroes. But it is all of you who are the true heroes! It was you who fought a dying Empire who sunk its claws into our land, trying to drag us down with it. It was you who fought the Thalmor and their puppets who would have us deny our gods and our heritage. It was you who fought your kin who didn't understand our cause, who weren't willing to pay the price of our freedom. But more than that, it was you who fought for Skyrim, for our right to fight our own battles... To return to our glory and traditions, to determine our own future!"

      When i aid the empire and Tullius forgotten to pay me I restarted the quest. Thanks Ulfric for making me the legend, because I AM DRAGONBORN! 

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote: Don't know how Tullius plans on doubling his soldiers' wages. Solitude's coffers are empty because of the Civil War, Cyrodiil is ravaged because of the Great War and supposedly in strife, Morrowind or High Rock isn't going to pay for it, and I doubt the other Jarls are going to enjoy raising taxes and giving it over to the Legion to pay for it. So either Tullius lied to his men by promising them riches he can't afford and will get disappointment and resentment, or he starts pushing his weight around with the Jarls and pushing them to pay more than they bargained for; thus making political enemies either way. Either way, the Stormcloaks will be getting more recruits.

      First of all, we know nothing of Cyrodiil, High Rock nor Morrowind's coffers, that's not even including those of Esroniet, Cathnoquey and Yneslea. Skyrim may be poor, but the other Imperial provinces are not. Especially with the EEC being on the Empire's side. High Rock has no choice in the matter, if the Empire decides this, than their province has to do it.

      The Stormcloaks will fall apart the moment Ulfric's dead. With nobody to supply their racist cult they will lose.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote: Regardless of which side you join :

      Ulfric goes the hall of valor in sovngard as a hero.

      Emperor mede will be killed by the dark brotherhood. (Sometimes headless and naked on the table).

      Tullius may double the wages of his soldier or lose his head.

      Its good for skyrim but bad for thalmor.

      Dragonborn wins.

      Mede's death isn't canon.

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    • No idea whether it will be canon or not, but its part of a unmodded questline. Most likely some other guy will kill the emperor rather than the dragonborn, but he is weak old man and meant to be killed. ( The events from the dark brotherhood during the oblivion crisis did occured. )

      I say kill the man and let the dragonborn sit on the throne!

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote: Don't know how Tullius plans on doubling his soldiers' wages. Solitude's coffers are empty because of the Civil War, Cyrodiil is ravaged because of the Great War and supposedly in strife, Morrowind or High Rock isn't going to pay for it, and I doubt the other Jarls are going to enjoy raising taxes and giving it over to the Legion to pay for it. So either Tullius lied to his men by promising them riches he can't afford and will get disappointment and resentment, or he starts pushing his weight around with the Jarls and pushing them to pay more than they bargained for; thus making political enemies either way. Either way, the Stormcloaks will be getting more recruits.

      First of all, we know nothing of Cyrodiil, High Rock nor Morrowind's coffers, that's not even including those of Esroniet, Cathnoquey and Yneslea. Skyrim may be poor, but the other Imperial provinces are not. Especially with the EEC being on the Empire's side. High Rock has no choice in the matter, if the Empire decides this, than their province has to do it.

      The Stormcloaks will fall apart the moment Ulfric's dead. With nobody to supply their racist cult they will lose.

      We do know that Cyrodiil was just recently wrecked by the Great War and even after the Great War had two of its cities fall to violence even after it. If that province isn't a failed state now, it's recovering from being one. Morrowind doesn't pay "tithes" to the Empire as stated by the Decree of Monument so they aren't obligated to pay for Tullius' raises, but even if they were, they also suffered from the eruption of Red Mountain and is currently fighting a war with the Argonians who still took half their territory. There's no way they could afford to pay for it even if they were obligated to. Now High Rock for what we know, only lost one city wayrest. if they even could pay for Tullius' raises, it is the only healthy army in the Imperial provinces not ravaged by war. They will laugh in your face if you single them out and try to exert some delusional power on them to put the fiscal burden on them and them alone, or even have them pay the lions' share of it. We know a lot of the Empire's current state to know Tullius' raises aren't even feasible. No one is going to be fooled by Cyrodiil puffing its chest, everyone knows the Empire is too weak to be throwing its weight around. So if High Rock says they aren't going to pay for it, they aren't going to pay for it. And although waging war on High Rock to try an make them pay for it is clearly a stupid decision, I hope I don't have to explain how clearly that's a bad idea. The Empire would be destroying itself for the Thalmor now wouldn't it?

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote: Don't know how Tullius plans on doubling his soldiers' wages. Solitude's coffers are empty because of the Civil War, Cyrodiil is ravaged because of the Great War and supposedly in strife, Morrowind or High Rock isn't going to pay for it, and I doubt the other Jarls are going to enjoy raising taxes and giving it over to the Legion to pay for it. So either Tullius lied to his men by promising them riches he can't afford and will get disappointment and resentment, or he starts pushing his weight around with the Jarls and pushing them to pay more than they bargained for; thus making political enemies either way. Either way, the Stormcloaks will be getting more recruits.

      First of all, we know nothing of Cyrodiil, High Rock nor Morrowind's coffers, that's not even including those of Esroniet, Cathnoquey and Yneslea. Skyrim may be poor, but the other Imperial provinces are not. Especially with the EEC being on the Empire's side. High Rock has no choice in the matter, if the Empire decides this, than their province has to do it.

      The Stormcloaks will fall apart the moment Ulfric's dead. With nobody to supply their racist cult they will lose.

      We do know that Cyrodiil was just recently wrecked by the Great War and even after the Great War had two of its cities fall to violence even after it. If that province isn't a failed state now, it's recovering from being one. Morrowind doesn't pay "tithes" to the Empire as stated by the Decree of Monument so they aren't obligated to pay for Tullius' raises, but even if they were, they also suffered from the eruption of Red Mountain and is currently fighting a war with the Argonians who still took half their territory. There's no way they could afford to pay for it even if they were obligated to. Now High Rock for what we know, only lost one city wayrest. if they even could pay for Tullius' raises, it is the only healthy army in the Imperial provinces not ravaged by war. They will laugh in your face if you single them out and try to exert some delusional power on them to put the fiscal burden on them and them alone, or even have them pay the lions' share of it. We know a lot of the Empire's current state to know Tullius' raises aren't even feasible. No one is going to be fooled by Cyrodiil puffing its chest, everyone knows the Empire is too weak to be throwing its weight around. So if High Rock says they aren't going to pay for it, they aren't going to pay for it. And although waging war on High Rock to try an make them pay for it is clearly a stupid decision, I hope I don't have to explain how clearly that's a bad idea. The Empire would be destroying itself for the Thalmor now wouldn't it?

      Morrowind is still an Imperial Province, just because the Armistice has came to fall doesn't mean they don't need to pay taxes. The Argonians only hold a few border regions, nothing more.

      And no they won't, you seem to think that everyone hates the Empire, but High Rock has no issues with it.

      Your reasoning is broken and illogical.

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    • And no they won't, you seem to think that everyone hates the Empire, but High Rock has no issues with it.

      He's saying that High Rock would have issues with the Empire making them and only them pay for doubling their army's wage. It wouldn't be the first time a nation revolts because of unfair taxes.

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    • Zebragoboom wrote:

      And no they won't, you seem to think that everyone hates the Empire, but High Rock has no issues with it.

      He's saying that High Rock would have issues with the Empire making them and only them pay for doubling their army's wage. It wouldn't be the first time a nation revolts because of unfair taxes.

      Tullius is only doubling the pay of the soldiers who fought in Windhelm, not the entire Legion.

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    • Thanks for telling me. My statement stands.

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    • Tullius paid the weak legionnaire who fought in Windhelm, he forgotten to pay the dragonborn ( the only reason they win, unless u count tullius sword which is worth peanuts when sold at the market). And after the war the dragonborn is forgotten... sad for joining the empire.

      But ulfric will let his army and the people of skyrim know it was the dragonborn who bring victory to the stormcloaks.

      I kill like the entire legionnaire/ the entire stormcloaks to end the civil war... I think the dragonborn deserves some credit. 

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    • My opinion is look at ulfric point of view. If u agree with ulfric (fight the thalmor)join him, if u decided he is not right (warlord gaining fame and power disrupting the peace) then join the empire. Dont listen to tullius/legion they are just some worker doing their shift. Another day... Another septim...

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    • Zebragoboom wrote: Thanks for telling me. My statement stands.

      No it doesn't.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote: Tullius paid the weak legionnaire who fought in Windhelm, he forgotten to pay the dragonborn ( the only reason they win, unless u count tullius sword which is worth peanuts when sold at the market). And after the war the dragonborn is forgotten... sad for joining the empire.

      But ulfric will let his army and the people of skyrim know it was the dragonborn who bring victory to the stormcloaks.

      I kill like the entire legionnaire/ the entire stormcloaks to end the civil war... I think the dragonborn deserves some credit. 

      You're basing an argument based on game mechanics.

      The Dragonborn gets no credit for slaying Alduin either, stop with your nonsense.

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    • Sovngard and the people if skyrim thank the dragonborn for killing alduin. Skyrim is a game which civil war occured due to different points of view between its people. No one is entirely right except the thalmor who engineered the civil war. The empire tries to restore peace and the people of skyrim thinks they are oppressed by foreigners. Skyrim will remain strong regardless of who wins the civil war.

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    • 60.52.1.50 wrote: Sovngard and the people if skyrim thank the dragonborn for killing alduin. Skyrim is a game which civil war occured due to different points of view between its people. No one is entirely right except the thalmor who engineered the civil war. The empire tries to restore peace and the people of skyrim thinks they are oppressed by foreigners. Skyrim will remain strong regardless of who wins the civil war.

      If by "the people of Skyrim" you mean the town guards, then yes. Otherwise, no.

      And no, there is one pretty clear right side when you dig into the lore.

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    • The pretty clear right side for empire supporters will always side tullius, same for the stormcloaks. The lore gives some hint but its up to the supporters to interprete. ( eg. Empire supporter will say Ulfric works with the Thalmor and the empire is trying to gain strength to fight the Thalmor. The empire is obviously fighting to restore peace and nothing more. If they win Talos worship will be banned even legate rikke gets warning for mentioning Talos. ) Regardless of which path, Ulfric goes to the hall of valor in sovngard.

      The guards are some people of Skyrim and they are designed to talk to you based on your fame and achievements.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      No it doesn't.

      How so? Taxes are taxes, no matter if it's for an entire legion or just one part of it. You can't just say some tangentially related fact and expect to refute my argument with just "Nope, you're wrong"

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    • Zebragoboom wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      No it doesn't.

      How so? Taxes are taxes, no matter if it's for an entire legion or just one part of it. You can't just say some tangentially related fact and expect to refute my argument with just "Nope, you're wrong"

      You say he's doubling their army's wage, which is simply wrong.

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    • The stormcloaks just are awesome. The empire was pretty much the one who ruined skyrim that started with their banning of Talos. The stormcloaks have the right idea. Any time I play the game I will always side with the true heroes of Skyrim. Besides, the imperials are always mean to me and the stormcloaks are just so kind to me. Well, besides that one Jarl in Dawnstar. He always says to me, "You're dumber than you look". So, join Ulfric. All hail the true sons and daughters of Skyrim!

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      You say he's doubling their army's wage, which is simply wrong.

      The entire point of my post was to say that High Rock could be hostile to the Empire if they tried to tax them for a battle that had no meaning to them (Plus i was just explaining someone else's point). Who specifically the taxes are going to and how large the tax is are only partially related.

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    • Zebragoboom wrote: The entire point of my post was to say that High Rock could be hostile to the Empire if they tried to tax them for a battle that had no meaning to them (Plus i was just explaining someone else's point). Who specifically the taxes are going to and how large the tax is are only partially related.

      Except that it does have meaning to them. High Rock is a part of the Empire, which means it pays what the Empire pays for. Why isn't Cyrodiil paying for it? Simple enough: They're still repairing after the war, which, by the way, High Rock was not a battle ground in. Skyrim is already paying the price by hosting the Civil War.

      Ultimately: High Rock isn't going to just randomly hate the Empire. It has the gold, and since it's part of the conglomerate, the Empire has every right to pay with "their own" money.

      Honestly, I don't know why we're arguing about that, since it's clearly off topic.

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    • Zebragoboom wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      You say he's doubling their army's wage, which is simply wrong.

      The entire point of my post was to say that High Rock could be hostile to the Empire if they tried to tax them for a battle that had no meaning to them (Plus i was just explaining someone else's point). Who specifically the taxes are going to and how large the tax is are only partially related.

      Actually, it had a meaning to them. The sooner the rebellion is over the sooner the Empire will help in retaking Wayrest.

      Not to forget that we don't even know what a soldier's wage is, for all we know, they are paid 10 septims, seeing as the Legion provides gear, food and a place to stay, doubling that to 20 isn't much, especially considering a lot of soldiers also died during the assault.

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    • Valid point, I hadn't considered Wayrest.

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    • They are cheap and weak soldiers.... since another day... another septim... Tullius just gotta give them 2 septim! So the sword is considered overpaid @@!!! Sucks fighting for skyrim, better chop some wood or open up a shop.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote: They are cheap and weak soldiers.... since another day... another septim... Tullius just gotta give them 2 septim! So the sword is considered overpaid @@!!! Sucks fighting for skyrim, better chop some wood or open up a shop.

      I'm just saying that you can't claim that High Rock will complain because we don't know what they are paid.

      A change of 1 to 2 septims is insignificant.

      A change from 1000 to 2000 septims is significant.

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    • 216.226.80.63 wrote:
      The stormcloaks just are awesome. The empire was pretty much the one who ruined skyrim that started with their banning of Talos. The stormcloaks have the right idea. Any time I play the game I will always side with the true heroes of Skyrim. Besides, the imperials are always mean to me and the stormcloaks are just so kind to me. Well, besides that one Jarl in Dawnstar. He always says to me, "You're dumber than you look". So, join Ulfric. All hail the true sons and daughters of Skyrim!


      1) The awsesome Stormcloaks are having their asses kicked by ONE imperial legion according to Galmar.

      2) The Empire didn’t ban the worship of Talos, the Thalmor did, there's a huge difference there. It wasn’t the Empire's Idea. Also Ulfric is the cause of the entire Talos ban being enforced in Skyrim, prior to the Markarth Incident there weren't any Thalmor in Skyrim.

      3) The Stormcloaks have the right idea but they are fighting against the wrong enemy. While we can all agree religious freedom is a noble pursuit, the Stormcloaks could have fought specifically the Thalmor if that’s all they wanted. But no, it's totally the Empire who's the disgusting ones here.

      4) The Stormcloaks are kind to you? Ulfric and Galmar place bets on wether you'll fail at killing a bloody Ice Wraith. The Legion acknowledges your strenght, unlike the Stormcloaks.

      5) So except for Skald all Stormcloaks Jarls are good? If you finished the civil war to both imperials and Stormcloaks, honestly go to each hold capitol city, and speak to each Jarl. Listen to how they now speak of Skyrim. All the Stormcloak Jarls speak of is just anti-Empire, pro-Nord, racist towards elves or just this short sighted bitterness. Almost all of the Imperial appointed Jarls talk about rebuilding, making Skyrim great, amending past mistakes, and preparing to fight the Thalmor.

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    • Ulfric didn't go inside Halls of Valor after Alduin was defeated. I beatened Alduin quite a lot of times and stayed on in Sovngarde to test that theory out. Everytime, Ulfric didn't make it into the Halls of Valor.

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    • 1) Full dialogue: ( Galmar is telling Ulfric soldiers are lost everyday. )

      Ulfric: "Calm yourself, Galmar. Save it for the battlefield." Galmar: "Our men are getting massacred out there. Damn Imperials." Ulfric: "We can't march on Solitude. Not yet. One thing at a time." Galmar: "We need to move faster. Keep them off balance." Ulfric: "It's working, Galmar. Our patience has won us friends and allies. And our armies are systematically taking care of the rest."

      2) I didnt know Ulfric signed the concordant to ban Talos worship.

      3) Storm Brotherhood sounds like a good idea.... 

      4) After arriving at Solitude, enter Castle Dour and speak to General Tullius. He will then direct the Dragonborn to Legate Rikke, who is usually by the war table. She will then say that Fort Hraggstad, which has been taken over by bandits, must be cleared.

      5) All the Jarls are puppets to the empire or ulfric except Balgruuf. (He fights for his own city - whiterun)

      Ulfric and Torygg will eventually go in to the Hall of Valor, but they want to send you off 1st...

      Just play both side of the story, the empire fights to restore peace and the stormcloaks fight for their freedom and religion. It wouldnt be a civil war if the empire or stormcloak is "better", not ending the civil war will benefit the aldmeri dominion.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:
      Ulfric didn't go inside Halls of Valor after Alduin was defeated. I beatened Alduin quite a lot of times and stayed on in Sovngarde to test that theory out. Everytime, Ulfric didn't make it into the Halls of Valor.

      This is game mechanics.

      103.245.88.253 wrote: 1) Full dialogue: ( Galmar is telling Ulfric soldiers are lost everyday. )

      Ulfric: "Calm yourself, Galmar. Save it for the battlefield." Galmar: "Our men are getting massacred out there. Damn Imperials." Ulfric: "We can't march on Solitude. Not yet. One thing at a time." Galmar: "We need to move faster. Keep them off balance."

      Ulfric: "It's working, Galmar. Our patience has won us friends and allies. And our armies are systematically taking care of the rest."

      And yet Ulfric says they're going to fight against the Dominion. If the Stormcloaks can't even handle a severely weakened Empire, how would they handle the Dominion, which has a lot of power?

      2) I didnt know Ulfric signed the concordant to ban Talos worship.

      Ulfric was a Thalmor agent who became uncooperative after the Thalmor betrayed him during the Markarth Inccident.

      3) Storm Brotherhood sounds like a good idea....
       

      WTF?

      4) After arriving at Solitude, enter Castle Dour and speak to General Tullius. He will then direct the Dragonborn to Legate Rikke, who is usually by the war table. She will then say that Fort Hraggstad, which has been taken over by bandits, must be cleared.

      Rikke acknowledges your strenght and congratulates you upon your return. Galmar, on the other hand, admits he didn't think you'd make it, and only apologizes for misjudging you upon your return.

      5) All the Jarls are puppets to the empire or ulfric except Balgruuf. (He fights for his own city - whiterun)

      Do you know what a puppet is? A puppet doesn't realize he's being played. A true puppet example are Markarth and Riften. The Silver-Bloods own the guards of Markarth and Maven controls Riften by using Laila as a puppet.

      Ulfric and Torygg will eventually go in to the Hall of Valor, but they want to send you off 1st...

      They don't go due to game mechanics.

      Just play both side of the story, the empire fights to restore peace and the stormcloaks fight for their freedom and religion. It wouldnt be a civil war if the empire or stormcloak is "better", not ending the civil war will benefit the aldmeri dominion.

      Both factions have their flaws but if I have to choose the lesser of two evils, I choose the Empire because at least it can justify its flaws. Can Ulfric say the same? Of course not, because for him killing everyone that's not with him regardless of their reason is right. Tearing apart a society because you're not allowed to worship Talos openly when everyone got along fine worshiping him in secret is right. Setting yourself up for inevitable destruction is right. Again, Stormcloaks lack foresight and are just a bunch of brats at the table complaining that the last sweet roll was taken. They would have been better off sticking with the Empire as resistance forms like in much of the rest of Tamriel. Hammerfell is resisting because they're united. The Stormcloaks tore all that unity to shreds and now they have no chance, especially since the Thalmor WANT this civil war. DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:

      Both factions have their flaws but if I have to choose the lesser of two evils, I choose the Empire because at least it can justify its flaws. Can Ulfric say the same? Of course not, because for him killing everyone that's not with him regardless of their reason is right. Tearing apart a society because you're not allowed to worship Talos openly when everyone got along fine worshiping him in secret is right. Setting yourself up for inevitable destruction is right. Again, Stormcloaks lack foresight and are just a bunch of brats at the table complaining that the last sweet roll was taken. They would have been better off sticking with the Empire as resistance forms like in much of the rest of Tamriel. Hammerfell is resisting because they're united. The Stormcloaks tore all that unity to shreds and now they have no chance, especially since the Thalmor WANT this civil war. DIVIDE AND CONQUER.

      Ulfric not entering Halls of Valor I suspect is not just a game mechanics I think its because he wasn't as honorable and legendary as those in the Halls of Valor. Divide and Conquer strategies like every strategies can be countered by a superior tactician than the one using the dividing and conquer tactics.

      If you truly want to choose the least evil to join, choose neutrality and kill Titus Mede II. Don't go apeshit crazy into a blind rage if you're an Imperial Fanboy. In fact, as crazy as it sounds it is possible for you to kill four birds with one stone by making all the four birds slam their heads against the stone for you. So you can create a win-win-win-win situation even if you are no longer present in Skyrim after the main quests due to Dragonborn DLC

      Well, the only problem is this path is exceedingly difficult and you are literately going up against the most dangerous enemy directly who has the Empire and Stormcloaks dance to its palm. Who is likely to see what you're doing and get in your way with extreme prejudice. Most likely you'll face a threat far greater than the Stormcloaks and Imperial Legion in Skyrim put together at every second of your life in Skyrim because what you're doing is extremely disgusting in the eyes of the Thalmor. Any leaders with a brain in the Thalmor leadership would deem you a threat that must be destroyed at all cost.

      Meaning the Thalmor will no longer spend time trying to balance the fight between the Stormcloaks and Imperials but go after the Last Dragonborn. Chances is one of them, Stormcloak or Imperials are going to win which will put a dent to your plan meaning you have to expel effort to balance the two while dealing with the full might of the Thalmor espionage force that has been holding back against the Stormcloaks and Imperials.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote: Ulfric not entering Halls of Valor I suspect is not just a game mechanics I think its because he wasn't as honorable and legendary as those in the Halls of Valor. Divide and Conquer strategies like every strategies can be countered by a superior tactician than the one using the dividing and conquer tactics.

      If you truly want to choose the least evil to join, choose neutrality and kill Titus Mede II. Don't go apeshit crazy into a blind rage if you're an Imperial Fanboy. In fact, as crazy as it sounds it is possible for you to kill four birds with one stone by making all the four birds slam their heads against the stone for you. So you can create a win-win-win-win situation even if you are no longer present in Skyrim after the main quests due to Dragonborn DLC

      Well, the only problem is this path is exceedingly difficult and you are literately going up against the most dangerous enemy directly who has the Empire and Stormcloaks dance to its palm. Who is likely to see what you're doing and get in your way with extreme prejudice. Most likely you'll face a threat far greater than the Stormcloaks and Imperial Legion in Skyrim put together at every second of your life in Skyrim because what you're doing is extremely disgusting in the eyes of the Thalmor. Any leaders with a brain in the Thalmor leadership would deem you a threat that must be destroyed at all cost.

      Meaning the Thalmor will no longer spend time trying to balance the fight between the Stormcloaks and Imperials but go after the Last Dragonborn. Chances is one of them, Stormcloak or Imperials are going to win which will put a dent to your plan meaning you have to expel effort to balance the two while dealing with the full might of the Thalmor espionage force that has been holding back against the Stormcloaks and Imperials.

      Entering the Hall of Valor has little to do with honor, you need to defeat Tsun, that's mostly it.

      Neutrality is doing what the Thalmor want, killing Mede isn't any good.

      And since we're stuck in Apocrypha and by default, we do nothing aside from the main quests, meaning that we slay Alduin, kill Harkon, kill Miraak and get stuck in Apocrypha.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Entering the Hall of Valor has little to do with honor, you need to defeat Tsun, that's mostly it.

      Neutrality is doing what the Thalmor want, killing Mede isn't any good.

      And since we're stuck in Apocrypha and by default, we do nothing aside from the main quests, meaning that we slay Alduin, kill Harkon, kill Miraak and get stuck in Apocrypha.

      Neutrality is only going to be doing what the Thalmor wants if you completely hands off and not know what you're doing.

      In the game, you may have come across quests that seems to foreshadow involvement with the Thalmor, Stormcloaks and Imperials. These are the ones that will affect and get in the way of the Thalmor.

      They are extremely subtle and requires insights that some may consider overthinking. Take the most obvious for example: Finishing all of the College quests and bringing the College under the control of the Dragonborn. In addition to the potential benefits of a school of mages diligently studying magic unlike those in Cyrodiil... Ancano's antics can let the Dragonborn pull reasons out of his ass for the greater good as to why this college full of mages studying magic diligently needs to help the Empire for mutual benefits.

      If the Dragonborn only do nothing aside the main quests as you said, killing Alduin, Harkon, Miraak and get stuck in Apocrypha... then the Dragonborn wouldn't have time to help the Empire or Stormcloaks beat either side or do any of the super long list of things necessary to create a "Thalmor-Scream in horror and live forever in nightmares" neutrality situation. Then it will be a Thalmor-controlled neutrality situation for the Stormcloaks and Imperials. Seeing Ulfric chickened out and never seen going out for another tactical contest with Tullius until he has a clear advantage, chances is they will continue to stalemate in the Thalmor favor. 

      Even if the Dragonborn do destroy either Stormcloaks or Imperials, but leave them to fight the Aldmeri Dominion. There is no way the Empire or the Stormcloaks have a better chance against the AD during Great War.

      Stormcloaks wins, Empire weakens further. Empire is pretty much half as strong as it was during Great War, meaning at half strength in Great War. Great War, they were unprepared and supposedly weakened. Losing the Civil War and losing half of its lands is an indication they are prepare to fight but only at 1/2 strength.

      Empire wins, Empire was still drained from the fighting and was weaker than it was in Great War due to loss of free access to Hammerfell troops. But it evens up with Empire being prepared to fight. 

      Without this theoretical small but extremely powerful 3rd Faction controlled by the Dragonborn that will force the status quo of the Stormcloaks, Imperials and Thalmor to collapse completely this may requires an insanely excessive amount of work on the Dragonborn's side but it will create the so called Thalmor's worst nightmare situation because if things go my way, no one dares to move because you'll make everyone think your dangerous faction has sided with their enemy faction and if they make a move, they'll end up getting hit by both fronts.

      If this situation does not come to pass, the Thalmor wins no matter who wins. Because Empire will weaken, making things easier for them to take it down.

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    • The legion aint the bad guys, the thalmor are.... 

      But the legion also certainly not the good guys so what makes the stormcloaks?

      Ulfric and Tullius Conversation....

      If u think killing the emperor will turn empire around with a better leader, join the legion's quest to restore peace in skyrim. ( Just dont forget to name your dragonborn --- Tiber Septim. )

      If u think empire's leader is weak and forcing all its provinces to bow to the thalmor, join the stormcloak's quest to fight for skyrim. 

      Independant Skyrim is free and certainly not weak, alliances makes people strong.

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    • The legion are probably not the bad guys, however it seems to me like they are essentially having Skyrim bend over for the Aldmeri Dominion just so they can stay in power. At least the Stormcloaks are bold enough to try and fight back, even if it may end in their doom, rather than simply let the Elves constantly fuck Skyrim in the ass.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote:
      The legion aint the bad guys, the thalmor are.... 

      But the legion also certainly not the good guys so what makes the stormcloaks?

      Ulfric and Tullius Conversation....

      If u think killing the emperor will turn empire around with a better leader, join the legion's quest to restore peace in skyrim. ( Just dont forget to name your dragonborn --- Tiber Septim. )

      If u think empire's leader is weak and forcing all its provinces to bow to the thalmor, join the stormcloak's quest to fight for skyrim. 

      Independant Skyrim is free and certainly not weak, alliances makes people strong.


      I know I stated killing Emperor and destroying or leaving Stormcloaks alone as a possible strategy to break the stalemate and forcing the Thalmor to act from an unexpected turn of events in order to surprise the Aldmeri Dominion. But when I suggested the assassination of Titus Mede II, I don't want his death for destruction of the Empire on contrary I want his death to be a trigger to break the status quo created by the Thalmor. Even an independant Skyrim can end up back in the Empire under a different Emperor or Supreme Chancellor for example.

      I am using something else as an alternative representation of the Emperor to show that you can have a completely different leader and a new government that will do a far better job than the old Septim system that no longer works to rule the Empire. Make it strong again, deal with the other provinces differently with new treaties. After all, Talos himself said to the Neravarine in Morrowind that he prefers if they change things around through his Avatar, he even left it open in the air on purpose.

      My suggestion of neutrality is two folded. Neutrality is something the Thalmor wants. Let them relax briefly and regret not killing me asap when I am doing things completely out of their anticipation that will disrupt their operations, caused the Civil War to turn into a cold war by making everyone cautious of a brand new faction that is a mystery but without a doubt powerful enough to hold its own against the Stormcloaks, Imperials and the Thalmor.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Neutrality is only going to be doing what the Thalmor wants if you completely hands off and not know what you're doing.

      In the game, you may have come across quests that seems to foreshadow involvement with the Thalmor, Stormcloaks and Imperials. These are the ones that will affect and get in the way of the Thalmor.

      They are extremely subtle and requires insights that some may consider overthinking. Take the most obvious for example: Finishing all of the College quests and bringing the College under the control of the Dragonborn. In addition to the potential benefits of a school of mages diligently studying magic unlike those in Cyrodiil... Ancano's antics can let the Dragonborn pull reasons out of his ass for the greater good as to why this college full of mages studying magic diligently needs to help the Empire for mutual benefits.

      If the Dragonborn only do nothing aside the main quests as you said, killing Alduin, Harkon, Miraak and get stuck in Apocrypha... then the Dragonborn wouldn't have time to help the Empire or Stormcloaks beat either side or do any of the super long list of things necessary to create a "Thalmor-Scream in horror and live forever in nightmares" neutrality situation. Then it will be a Thalmor-controlled neutrality situation for the Stormcloaks and Imperials. Seeing Ulfric chickened out and never seen going out for another tactical contest with Tullius until he has a clear advantage, chances is they will continue to stalemate in the Thalmor favor. 

      Even if the Dragonborn do destroy either Stormcloaks or Imperials, but leave them to fight the Aldmeri Dominion. There is no way the Empire or the Stormcloaks have a better chance against the AD during Great War.

      Stormcloaks wins, Empire weakens further. Empire is pretty much half as strong as it was during Great War, meaning at half strength in Great War. Great War, they were unprepared and supposedly weakened. Losing the Civil War and losing half of its lands is an indication they are prepare to fight but only at 1/2 strength.

      Empire wins, Empire was still drained from the fighting and was weaker than it was in Great War due to loss of free access to Hammerfell troops. But it evens up with Empire being prepared to fight. 

      Without this theoretical small but extremely powerful 3rd Faction controlled by the Dragonborn that will force the status quo of the Stormcloaks, Imperials and Thalmor to collapse completely this may requires an insanely excessive amount of work on the Dragonborn's side but it will create the so called Thalmor's worst nightmare situation because if things go my way, no one dares to move because you'll make everyone think your dangerous faction has sided with their enemy faction and if they make a move, they'll end up getting hit by both fronts.

      If this situation does not come to pass, the Thalmor wins no matter who wins. Because Empire will weaken, making things easier for them to take it down.

      No, neutrality is still doing what the Thalmor want, regardless of how you twist and turn it.

      You're basing things on pure speculation, baseless speculation for that matter. The moment Ulfric makes a move to Whiterun is when the tables will turn and the Thalmor will be unable to do anything about it.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      No, neutrality is still doing what the Thalmor want, regardless of how you twist and turn it.

      You're basing things on pure speculation, baseless speculation for that matter. The moment Ulfric makes a move to Whiterun is when the tables will turn and the Thalmor will be unable to do anything about it.

      I don't twist or turn it. I am stating what actions are most brutal and disadvantageous to the Thalmor based on the start of the Skyrim's events. I am not speculating when I believe I stated clearly the best scenario not the canon scenario, is for you become leader of various guilds. Being leader of the Companions means you are the one who choose who to join, you'll have considerable power to train more companions. Do you honestly think all of Skyrim only the Last Dragonborn wants to join the Companions and only the Dragonborn who qualifies to be Companions' leader is qualified to join them? No, the game doesn't reflect the actual population or the size of Skyrim who should by rights be at least equivalent to Germany for Tamriel. That means all Guilds should have at least 5X to 100X more people in them.

      In the most likely scenario where the Dragonborn remains hands free from the Civil War, the Thalmor wins no matter what. Even if it didn't go in the most ideal way the Thalmor wishes, the result remains the same. Skyrim weakens itself in turn weakens the Empire causing 2/4 human provinces to be weakened before the Aldmeri Dominion strikes again.

      The moment Ulfric makes a move to Whiterun is not when the tables turn, that is when the Thalmor wins but not as much as they hoped for, is that going to stop their plans? No, the goal will be partially achieved no matter what.

      The Goal is achieved when the Stormcloaks and Imperials drain each other out slowly. When they do something drastic, they'll be considered doing high damage to both sides in favor of the Thalmor.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:
      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      No, neutrality is still doing what the Thalmor want, regardless of how you twist and turn it.

      You're basing things on pure speculation, baseless speculation for that matter. The moment Ulfric makes a move to Whiterun is when the tables will turn and the Thalmor will be unable to do anything about it.

      I don't twist or turn it. I am stating what actions are most brutal and disadvantageous to the Thalmor based on the start of the Skyrim's events. I am not speculating when I believe I stated clearly the best scenario not the canon scenario, is for you become leader of various guilds. Being leader of the Companions means you are the one who choose who to join, you'll have considerable power to train more companions. Do you honestly think all of Skyrim only the Last Dragonborn wants to join the Companions and only the Dragonborn who qualifies to be Companions' leader is qualified to join them? No, the game doesn't reflect the actual population or the size of Skyrim who should by rights be at least equivalent to Germany for Tamriel. That means all Guilds should have at least 5X to 100X more people in them.

      In the most likely scenario where the Dragonborn remains hands free from the Civil War, the Thalmor wins no matter what. Even if it didn't go in the most ideal way the Thalmor wishes, the result remains the same. Skyrim weakens itself in turn weakens the Empire causing 2/4 human provinces to be weakened before the Aldmeri Dominion strikes again.

      The moment Ulfric makes a move to Whiterun is not when the tables turn, that is when the Thalmor wins but not as much as they hoped for, is that going to stop their plans? No, the goal will be partially achieved no matter what.

      The Goal is achieved when the Stormcloaks and Imperials drain each other out slowly. When they do something drastic, they'll be considered doing high damage to both sides in favor of the Thalmor.

      All of that is made irrelevant when you're trapped in apocrypha. If anything, it makes the guilds weaker, what is a guild without a leader? Especially when it's uncertain who should be its next one?


      And no, that's not when the Thalmor win, the Thalmor win if Ulfric doesn't make any moves whatsoever, but he will and he'll fail.


      The Empire is massacring the Stormcloaks, I'm yet to hear of anything similar when it comes to the Stormcloaks beating the Empire. Killing a few squads sent to Winterhold is nothing in comparison.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      All of that is made irrelevant when you're trapped in apocrypha. If anything, it makes the guilds weaker, what is a guild without a leader? Especially when it's uncertain who should be its next one?


      And no, that's not when the Thalmor win, the Thalmor win if Ulfric doesn't make any moves whatsoever, but he will and he'll fail.


      The Empire is massacring the Stormcloaks, I'm yet to hear of anything similar when it comes to the Stormcloaks beating the Empire. Killing a few squads sent to Winterhold is nothing in comparison.

      All of that is made irrelevant when I'm trapped in Apocrypha? In case you missed it, I already stated that in that ridiiculously high difficulty path/choice that it is a standard issue, a duty, given, must do... to prepare the neutral guilds to operate in mutual benefits with each other in case you are unable to lead them. 

      This is on account that even if Hermaeus Mora didn't trap the Dragonborn in Apocrypha, it will be too dangerous to leave everything in the hands of one person, even if he's the Last Dragonborn, not even if you're a dragonborn smarter than Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, Underking, Wulfharth, Titus Mede II, Tullius and Ulfric put together. That is why for this to work you have to create a system where all the leaders of the Guilds are disposal and they can function properly as anti-existence to the Thalmor for at least an entire century. Well, if it goes THIS WELL, this little outfit created by the Dragonborn will likely become a deciding force in how Tamriel will be run for at least 100 to 400 years depending on what kind of people are going to end up in power within a faction like this since the chances of the Thalmor to beat a perfected Anti-existence to them is at most one in a trillion or absolutely zero. Empire and Stormcloaks will have a lower chance of beating them, it is safe to say if either side tries anything funny, they will be obliterated like the Nothing they truly are compared to the Godly strategic power of this faction. 

      Although to create something like that in a condusive environment will be tough enough let alone one where the Thalmor will be out for your blood before long. 

      All I am saying is if the Dragonborn is smart enough and get around in Skyrim long enough, he can create a seriously flawed version of this Anti-existence to the Thalmor, maybe it will not be virtually no chance of losing but the weakest and most imperfect version of an anti-existence like this will still have a minimum of ten times greater chance of beating the Thalmor.


      You stated:

      And no, that's not when the Thalmor win, the Thalmor win if Ulfric doesn't make any moves whatsoever, but he will and he'll fail.

      Corrections:

      Unfortunately for you, you're wrong. The Thalmor wins whether or not Ulfric makes a move. The Thalmor wins whether or not the Empire move or  not move. That was the perfection created by a series of well-planned, well-executed strategies despite the setbacks they experience every now and then. That was how badly the Empire had allowed the advantage AD/Thalmor obtained over it.

      You also stated:

      The Empire is massacring the Stormcloaks, I'm yet to hear of anything similar when it comes to the Stormcloaks beating the Empire. Killing a few squads sent to Winterhold is nothing in comparison.

      Corrections:

      Neither the losses suffered at Winterhold or that unknown location were specified. Winterhold is rundown meaning more easily assaulted and taking it can give them control over a road leading to Windhelm from west of Skyrim once Riften is taken back. Meaning they couldn't march on Windhelm directly yet.

      As for Tullius efforts in capturing Winterhold, there was no way to tell if Tullius sent a section, platoon or a battalion to try capture it. Ulfric was just slightly amused by how Tullius' was so determined to capture Winterhold from him. There is far more values in capturing Winterhold even though its ruined, but seeing Tullius' reasoning is so petty, I can't help but see him not able to capitalize on obtaining Winterhold and would gain no more than a few annoyances for Ulfric. 

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    • Do you guys play any other games?

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    • Just a quick re: to the above, even if it wasn't directed at me.

      I have like 50 different games in my Steam Library, yet something keeps bringing back to the game that I've been playing for the past 5 years. If I tried to play any other game, I'd play for like 10 mins, then switch it off, then go back to playing Skyrim.

      Don't be surprised if these guys don't play anything else because Skyrim is better than most games today.

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    • CynicalEarth wrote: Do you guys play any other games?

      TES based, yes.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote: All of that is made irrelevant when I'm trapped in Apocrypha? In case you missed it, I already stated that in that ridiiculously high difficulty path/choice that it is a standard issue, a duty, given, must do... to prepare the neutral guilds to operate in mutual benefits with each other in case you are unable to lead them. 

      This is on account that even if Hermaeus Mora didn't trap the Dragonborn in Apocrypha, it will be too dangerous to leave everything in the hands of one person, even if he's the Last Dragonborn, not even if you're a dragonborn smarter than Tiber Septim, Zurin Arctus, Underking, Wulfharth, Titus Mede II, Tullius and Ulfric put together. That is why for this to work you have to create a system where all the leaders of the Guilds are disposal and they can function properly as anti-existence to the Thalmor for at least an entire century. Well, if it goes THIS WELL, this little outfit created by the Dragonborn will likely become a deciding force in how Tamriel will be run for at least 100 to 400 years depending on what kind of people are going to end up in power within a faction like this since the chances of the Thalmor to beat a perfected Anti-existence to them is at most one in a trillion or absolutely zero. Empire and Stormcloaks will have a lower chance of beating them, it is safe to say if either side tries anything funny, they will be obliterated like the Nothing they truly are compared to the Godly strategic power of this faction. 

      Although to create something like that in a condusive environment will be tough enough let alone one where the Thalmor will be out for your blood before long. 

      All I am saying is if the Dragonborn is smart enough and get around in Skyrim long enough, he can create a seriously flawed version of this Anti-existence to the Thalmor, maybe it will not be virtually no chance of losing but the weakest and most imperfect version of an anti-existence like this will still have a minimum of ten times greater chance of beating the Thalmor.


      You stated:

      And no, that's not when the Thalmor win, the Thalmor win if Ulfric doesn't make any moves whatsoever, but he will and he'll fail.

      Corrections:

      Unfortunately for you, you're wrong. The Thalmor wins whether or not Ulfric makes a move. The Thalmor wins whether or not the Empire move or  not move. That was the perfection created by a series of well-planned, well-executed strategies despite the setbacks they experience every now and then. That was how badly the Empire had allowed the advantage AD/Thalmor obtained over it.

      You also stated:

      The Empire is massacring the Stormcloaks, I'm yet to hear of anything similar when it comes to the Stormcloaks beating the Empire. Killing a few squads sent to Winterhold is nothing in comparison.

      Corrections:

      Neither the losses suffered at Winterhold or that unknown location were specified. Winterhold is rundown meaning more easily assaulted and taking it can give them control over a road leading to Windhelm from west of Skyrim once Riften is taken back. Meaning they couldn't march on Windhelm directly yet.

      As for Tullius efforts in capturing Winterhold, there was no way to tell if Tullius sent a section, platoon or a battalion to try capture it. Ulfric was just slightly amused by how Tullius' was so determined to capture Winterhold from him. There is far more values in capturing Winterhold even though its ruined, but seeing Tullius' reasoning is so petty, I can't help but see him not able to capitalize on obtaining Winterhold and would gain no more than a few annoyances for Ulfric. 

      And that's not how guilds work. And even if you managed to get them that far, it wouldn't last for long.

      College of Winterhold; utterly pathetic in terms of power, Companions; too small in size to do anything serious, Thieves Guild is pathetic as it is, DB is a guild that only takes command from one, two at best, leaders. What is left of Skyrim then? Oh wait, that's about everything there is when it comes to guilds in Skyrim.

      You're greatly overestimating the guilds in Skyrim and greatly underestimating the power of the Dominion, the Dominion could have slaughtered the Empire in the last war. Keyword; slaughtered, if the guilds were even somewhat significant it would've been reduced to simply "beaten", but it's slaughtered.

      The Thalmor themselves state that an Imperial victory harms them, do you even play the game?

      Seeing as Ulfric's men are getting massacred by Imperials it's safe to say that Tullius' forces are less than the ones Ulfric has at Winterhold.

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    • I think we should call it "The Tullius Massacre" instead of Civil war in Skyrim. If the stormcloaks are getting massacre then they must have extraordinary recruiting efforts to match the legion. The thalmor aint that stupid to start a civil war and let empire/stormcloaks win. They know the concordant will lead to a civil war and they want to keep it as long as possible until their army takes over the empire. Unless the dragonborn / more capable emperor changes it.

      Taking back Skyrim for the empire seems like a safe move against the Thalmor but the Thalmor still have free reign to engineer another rebellion. ( They can kill and capture anyone they like as long as its " Talos Worshipping " and they are immune to the empire's legion. )

      Taking back Skyrim for Ulfric seems risky enough as Skyrim will lose the protection from the Empire. But in the long run, Skyrim will have its own army and self sufficient economy. ( As a bonus thalmor are thrown out of the land. )

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      And that's not how guilds work. And even if you managed to get them that far, it wouldn't last for long.

      College of Winterhold; utterly pathetic in terms of power, Companions; too small in size to do anything serious, Thieves Guild is pathetic as it is, DB is a guild that only takes command from one, two at best, leaders. What is left of Skyrim then? Oh wait, that's about everything there is when it comes to guilds in Skyrim.

      You're greatly overestimating the guilds in Skyrim and greatly underestimating the power of the Dominion, the Dominion could have slaughtered the Empire in the last war. Keyword; slaughtered, if the guilds were even somewhat significant it would've been reduced to simply "beaten", but it's slaughtered.

      The Thalmor themselves state that an Imperial victory harms them, do you even play the game?

      Seeing as Ulfric's men are getting massacred by Imperials it's safe to say that Tullius' forces are less than the ones Ulfric has at Winterhold.

      You do realized that I am only talking about what needs to be done to ruined the Thalmor's plans. Also the game doesn't reflect the true scale of Skyrim. If you go by proportions, Skyrim should be proportionate to Germany to Europe for Tamriel.
      If Daggerfall, the game where the world was believable but a little too big was any indication... the whole High Rock should be around the size of Daggerfall, Skyrim should be about twice of that.

      That means Skyrim should have a population about 5000 to 6000 times more than in the game by the lore. Seeing Daggerfall a better off city had around 110k people in it during 3E. It is safe to say that the cities had a range of 50,000 to 200,000 people with exception of Imperial City who'll likely have a million in it even if it was massacred 25 years ago... you go by that and include the people living outside cities, you can easily fit in that bill or even more. The Guilds were just getting revived.

      I did say you have to prepare the Guilds and there will be a lot of "to do things" in your list if you choose this ridiculously high leveled difficulty path that is not available in the game meaning the Empire, Stormcloaks lose and Thalmor wins in this particular scenario. The only thing they can do now is minimize the amount of "Lose" the Empire or Stormcloaks gets.

      The Thalmor Dossier stated that Imperial victory harms their position but also states that they need to avoid Stormcloak victory as well. Either side winning are not the most ideal outcome for the Thalmor but the damage would've been done.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      And that's not how guilds work. And even if you managed to get them that far, it wouldn't last for long.

      College of Winterhold; utterly pathetic in terms of power, Companions; too small in size to do anything serious, Thieves Guild is pathetic as it is, DB is a guild that only takes command from one, two at best, leaders. What is left of Skyrim then? Oh wait, that's about everything there is when it comes to guilds in Skyrim.

      You're greatly overestimating the guilds in Skyrim and greatly underestimating the power of the Dominion, the Dominion could have slaughtered the Empire in the last war. Keyword; slaughtered, if the guilds were even somewhat significant it would've been reduced to simply "beaten", but it's slaughtered.

      The Thalmor themselves state that an Imperial victory harms them, do you even play the game?

      Seeing as Ulfric's men are getting massacred by Imperials it's safe to say that Tullius' forces are less than the ones Ulfric has at Winterhold.

      You do realized that I am only talking about what needs to be done to ruined the Thalmor's plans. Also the game doesn't reflect the true scale of Skyrim. If you go by proportions, Skyrim should be proportionate to Germany to Europe for Tamriel.
      If Daggerfall, the game where the world was believable but a little too big was any indication... the whole High Rock should be around the size of Daggerfall, Skyrim should be about twice of that.

      That means Skyrim should have a population about 5000 to 6000 times more than in the game by the lore. Seeing Daggerfall a better off city had around 110k people in it during 3E. It is safe to say that the cities had a range of 50,000 to 200,000 people with exception of Imperial City who'll likely have a million in it even if it was massacred 25 years ago... you go by that and include the people living outside cities, you can easily fit in that bill or even more. The Guilds were just getting revived.

      I did say you have to prepare the Guilds and there will be a lot of "to do things" in your list if you choose this ridiculously high leveled difficulty path that is not available in the game meaning the Empire, Stormcloaks lose and Thalmor wins in this particular scenario. The only thing they can do now is minimize the amount of "Lose" the Empire or Stormcloaks gets.

      The Thalmor Dossier stated that Imperial victory harms their position but also states that they need to avoid Stormcloak victory as well. Either side winning are not the most ideal outcome for the Thalmor but the damage would've been done.

      And? There are a max of 500 companions, what does that matter? I can use that same argument to say that there are a ton more of Thalmor in Skyrim. The TG is weak and not interested in warfare or the like, the DB is a small assassination team and not really that professional anymore. College of winterhold, my argument stands, remember what Ancano says? They are nothing compared to his fellow Thalmor wizards.

      Right, but the point is that you're still going to get trapped in Apocrypha and all the guilds will want someone in charge and since guilds disagree with one another your little pact wouldn't last.

      And it's not elaborated upon why a Stormcloak one should be avoided.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote: The Empire is massacring the Stormcloaks, I'm yet to hear of anything similar when it comes to the Stormcloaks beating the Empire. Killing a few squads sent to Winterhold is nothing in comparison.

      That's because you are taking Galmar's hyperbole about the Stormcloaks' casualties of war out of context and dismissing any actual evidence that the Stormcloaks could be beating the Legion. Yes some Stormcloaks died during the civil war, and Galmar who trained these men used the word "massacre" to express his sentimentality over their loss. But that is no way indicative of the Empire dominating the Stormcloaks in the Civil War.

      Take Bryling, an Imperial loyal thane, and her conversation with her unbiased housecarl, for example:

      Bryling: "What news have you heard from the war, Irnskar?"
      Irnskar: "You won't like it, my lady."
      Bryling: "I'm well aware that I won't like it. But it's my duty to keep my people safe. Tell me."
      Irnskar: "Possession of the holds change on an almost daily basis, but I can report that Haafingar is still secure. Your people are safe."
      Bryling: "I'm not just talking about my subjects. I'm talking about my people: the proud Nords of Skyrim."
      Irnskar: "I told you you wouldn't like the news."

      If the Stormcloaks were being dominated, then how is it that they are able to take whole Holds from Tullius on a daily basis?

      Further corroborated by her talks with Falk Firebird:

      Bryling: "There's something that's been troubling me, Falk. I am hesitant to share it, but I feel that I must."
      Falk: "Speak your mind, Bryling. You're among friends here."
      Bryling: "You know that I support the Empire, as we all do. However, I fear General Tullius is underestimating the Stormcloaks. Too often the general has lost good soldiers because he did not take Ulfric and his men seriously. If this continues, and the worst comes to pass, Solitude will pay the price. The Empire is headquartered here, after all."
      Falk: "We don't have the luxury of hanging back to see who wins before choosing our friends, Bryling. You know this. And besides, no Nord with a shred of honor would consider it. We're no cowards. Have faith, Bryling. When this war is over and Ulfric is dead, you'll see that you were jumping at shadows, and nothing more."

      Where more than once has Ulfric's strategies have got the better of Tullius. And if the Legion's casualties are but a paltry sum, why does it concern Bryling so much?

      Thus your claim that the Stormcloaks are being "massacred" by the Legion is inaccurate. If anything, they are giving as good as they are getting. Not bad for a divisive rebellion against an Empire with supposed more abundant allies and resources. If Ulfric wins the war, I'm optimistic with what he could accomplish with all of Skyrim's resources at his command.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote: The Empire is massacring the Stormcloaks, I'm yet to hear of anything similar when it comes to the Stormcloaks beating the Empire. Killing a few squads sent to Winterhold is nothing in comparison.

      That's because you are taking Galmar's hyperbole about the Stormcloaks' casualties of war out of context and dismissing any actual evidence that the Stormcloaks could be beating the Legion. Yes some Stormcloaks died during the civil war, and Galmar who trained these men used the word "massacre" to express his sentimentality over their loss. But that is no way indicative of the Empire dominating the Stormcloaks in the Civil War.

      Take Bryling, an Imperial loyal thane, and her conversation with her unbiased housecarl, for example:

      Bryling: "What news have you heard from the war, Irnskar?"
      Irnskar: "You won't like it, my lady."
      Bryling: "I'm well aware that I won't like it. But it's my duty to keep my people safe. Tell me."
      Irnskar: "Possession of the holds change on an almost daily basis, but I can report that Haafingar is still secure. Your people are safe."
      Bryling: "I'm not just talking about my subjects. I'm talking about my people: the proud Nords of Skyrim."
      Irnskar: "I told you you wouldn't like the news."

      If the Stormcloaks were being dominated, then how is it that they are able to take whole Holds from Tullius on a daily basis?

      Further corroborated by her talks with Falk Firebird:

      Bryling: "There's something that's been troubling me, Falk. I am hesitant to share it, but I feel that I must."
      Falk: "Speak your mind, Bryling. You're among friends here."
      Bryling: "You know that I support the Empire, as we all do. However, I fear General Tullius is underestimating the Stormcloaks. Too often the general has lost good soldiers because he did not take Ulfric and his men seriously. If this continues, and the worst comes to pass, Solitude will pay the price. The Empire is headquartered here, after all."
      Falk: "We don't have the luxury of hanging back to see who wins before choosing our friends, Bryling. You know this. And besides, no Nord with a shred of honor would consider it. We're no cowards. Have faith, Bryling. When this war is over and Ulfric is dead, you'll see that you were jumping at shadows, and nothing more."

      Where more than once has Ulfric's strategies have got the better of Tullius. And if the Legion's casualties are but a paltry sum, why does it concern Bryling so much?

      Thus your claim that the Stormcloaks are being "massacred" by the Legion is inaccurate. If anything, they are giving as good as they are getting. Not bad for a divisive rebellion against an Empire with supposed more abundant allies and resources. If Ulfric wins the war, I'm optimistic with what he could accomplish with all of Skyrim's resources at his command.

      Uhm what? Unless if you have anything to point out -- on the Stormcloak side -- that the casualties are lower than "getting massacred your claim is simply false. You use Imperial Thanes, who don't even see the combat, nor direct any of it, as an argument against Galmar, who is the second in command of the Stormcloaks. If Galmar says they are getting massacred, they are getting massacred. Period.


      Aside from that, Irnskar is, as you said her housecarl, and he only gets to know what he knows through rumors, is he a reliable source? Not really. Especially that if what you claim is true about Holds changing hands often, than the same thing applies to Ulfric, since he also loses Holds, if both sides loses Holds and gains Holds, this argument is void and the Galmar argument still stands. Aside from that, I'm fairly certain that Tullius or Galmar would have mentioned the loss of Holds and the gaining of Holds, either in their talkings with Rikke/Ulfric or the Dragonborn, but nope, nothing.


      What? Ulfric's strategies? It merely says him underestimating the Stormcloaks, that has nothing at all to do with strategies, just with underestimating soldier quality. Do you know how that works? It's when you assume the enemy is so petty that sending 20 soldiers to kill of 50 would be succesful, despite it failing miserably. Nothing to do with tactics.


      I'm not the one claiming they are getting massacred, Galmar is. I do hope you realise that the Legion in Skyrim is locally recruited, like the Stormcloaks, and consists mostly, if not entirely, out of scouts and skirmishers? The fact that the Stormcloaks are having a tough time with that shows that they are petty. All? Perhaps you hadn't noticed, but Skyrim is an economical crisis during the Civil War, one that it won't recover from without trade through the Empire, and specifically, the East Empire Company.

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    • Galmar say stormcloak is getting massacre = empire win (Thats why he is absolutely right). This is is a civil war, there will be divided sides and economical crisis. Besides independant countries are never weak ( stormcloaks ) and united countries need someone to compromise ( empire ).

      Independant Skyrim may be weaker in the short term without the empire's legion, but definitely stronger long term ( Self sufficient economy and military ). Besides, they can still remain with the empire but force the empire to come up to their terms.

      Empire is not doing well due to weak emperor, however keeping Skyrim may give them enough time until a more capable leader takes over. In the meantime, its important for empire to maintain the peace and the nords to compromise their beliefs and tradition.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      And? There are a max of 500 companions, what does that matter? I can use that same argument to say that there are a ton more of Thalmor in Skyrim. The TG is weak and not interested in warfare or the like, the DB is a small assassination team and not really that professional anymore. College of winterhold, my argument stands, remember what Ancano says? They are nothing compared to his fellow Thalmor wizards.

      Right, but the point is that you're still going to get trapped in Apocrypha and all the guilds will want someone in charge and since guilds disagree with one another your little pact wouldn't last.

      And it's not elaborated upon why a Stormcloak one should be avoided.

      Your just proving you are incapable of creating the scenario I mentioned as the methods and ways are completely sealed tight for you. For you, there is only two ways. Join Empire, expel the Empire's resources and destroy Stormcloaks. The next thing that happens is for the weakened Empire that has expend some energy to stab itself on the face has to fight the Aldmeri Dominion that would have slaughtered your Empire while it wasn't prepared...

      It is going to be Great War 2.0 for your precious Empire while the Aldmeri Dominion have been preparing to fight a different War to completely exterminate Man.

      For you there is only 1 path and about 3 different strategies that can be adopted. A path with strategies that everyone can see coming before you even make a move. One that will face skillful counter-strategems at every turn to every single thing you do.

      For the scenario I mentioned to occur, the person has to be at least a centillion times superior in strategies than a narrow strategic mind such as this.That is why I said it is extremely hard and impossible for you as it is at a level unfathomable to you even if you have an eternality trying to figure out.

      It is the same as asking someone who simply can't understand magic enough to use it to become immortal to try and become immortal using magic. They'll never be able to learn how to be immortal with magic and is better off becoming a vampire for the same purpose. 

      What you are saying is akin to claiming that it is impossible to become immortal via magic because you can't do it yourself and that the only way to become immortal is to get turned into a vampire.

      PS: Just because Ysgrammor has 500 Companions, doesn't mean the Companions are limited to 500 members. Changing leadership means chance for change.

      Same goes for College and Thieves' Guild. These factions are weak individually when we join, but in hands of a capable leader, 1 year can easily turn things around. With the civil war, there is a lot of opportunities. Maybe it hurts the Empire, Stormcloaks and everyone else, but if you're smart, this is an opportunity. Even the Khajiits Caravans can see opportunities to make a coin. Ulfric can use the situation to seize power, the Dragonborn can do the same, except much better than anyone else.

      Of course, 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the Skyrim players probably don't have this level of strategic capabilities and that means the chance for the Dragonborn in canon to have this level of strategic capabilities is extremely low but not impossible.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      That's because you are taking Galmar's hyperbole about the Stormcloaks' casualties of war out of context and dismissing any actual evidence that the Stormcloaks could be beating the Legion. Yes some Stormcloaks died during the civil war, and Galmar who trained these men used the word "massacre" to express his sentimentality over their loss. But that is no way indicative of the Empire dominating the Stormcloaks in the Civil War.

      Take Bryling, an Imperial loyal thane, and her conversation with her unbiased housecarl, for example:


      Bryling: "What news have you heard from the war, Irnskar?"
      Irnskar: "You won't like it, my lady."
      Bryling: "I'm well aware that I won't like it. But it's my duty to keep my people safe. Tell me."
      Irnskar: "Possession of the holds change on an almost daily basis, but I can report that Haafingar is still secure. Your people are safe."
      Bryling: "I'm not just talking about my subjects. I'm talking about my people: the proud Nords of Skyrim."
      Irnskar: "I told you you wouldn't like the news."

      If the Stormcloaks were being dominated, then how is it that they are able to take whole Holds from Tullius on a daily basis?

      Further corroborated by her talks with Falk Firebird:


      Bryling: "There's something that's been troubling me, Falk. I am hesitant to share it, but I feel that I must."
      Falk: "Speak your mind, Bryling. You're among friends here."
      Bryling: "You know that I support the Empire, as we all do. However, I fear General Tullius is underestimating the Stormcloaks. Too often the general has lost good soldiers because he did not take Ulfric and his men seriously. If this continues, and the worst comes to pass, Solitude will pay the price. The Empire is headquartered here, after all."
      Falk: "We don't have the luxury of hanging back to see who wins before choosing our friends, Bryling. You know this. And besides, no Nord with a shred of honor would consider it. We're no cowards. Have faith, Bryling. When this war is over and Ulfric is dead, you'll see that you were jumping at shadows, and nothing more."

      Where more than once has Ulfric's strategies have got the better of Tullius. And if the Legion's casualties are but a paltry sum, why does it concern Bryling so much?

      Thus your claim that the Stormcloaks are being "massacred" by the Legion is inaccurate. If anything, they are giving as good as they are getting. Not bad for a divisive rebellion against an Empire with supposed more abundant allies and resources. If Ulfric wins the war, I'm optimistic with what he could accomplish with all of Skyrim's resources at his command.

      I've mentioned that there is no true way of estimating their actual loss. He went as far as claiming that Tullius only sent a few squads to die in Winterhold. But if the Imperial Legion can capture using more than a squad and Tullius still sends a few squads to die for nothing, that is just going to prove that Tullius and the Imperial Legion are incompetent fools wasitng the excessive resources at their disposal while the Stormcloaks are making better use of their resources.

      If the Stormcloaks controlling 4/9 Holds of Skyrim can have enough resources to fight the Empire the way they are, then if it means Skyrim is in fact self-sufficient and Stormcloaks will be fine without the Empire as long as they control the whole province even if Ulfric is an inferior tactican than Tullius he has people helping him, one of these people can just fill that space. If the Empire can't even beat a Stormcloak rebellion with merely 1 or 2 skilled tactician, the Empire is unworthy to be ruling government of Tamriel.

      That said I don't believe Skyrim is self-sufficient. Even by today's superior technology and farming techniques, Cold resistant crops are not enough to feed cold countries. 

      Empire winning the war means they'll have another tougher fight ahead. Against an enemy that has beatened them before which led to White Gold Concordat. Empire will need to pull soldiers out of Skyrim and High Rock again, they're going to get a Forsworn invade and conquer Markarth 2.0 again. Hammerfell is up in the air because there is no guarantee that the Empire or Stormcloaks can negotiate an alliance with the Redguards successfully.

      If Stormcloaks wins, the Empire weakens further, theres no reason why the Aldmeri Dominion can't destroy it and take over Cyrodiil. They don't even need to take all of Cyrodiil. They can throw everyone's pacing off by unconventional strategies by creating even more strife within the race of Men by buttering the submissive Imperials into agreeing to help them punish the Stormcloaks heretics or die because it can become 'obvious' to these cowards that they can't beat the AD but if the AD plans to "punish" Skyrim for worshiping Talos which can be seen as a valid reason in these people's eyes.

      Or they beat the Empire, kill all the rebellious Imperials and put a submissive puppet government in Cyrodiil where they force the Races of Men to fight among themselves again.

      Either ways, the Empire and Stormcloaks are being carried around by the sinister waves known as strategies from the Thalmor. No matter who wins the Civil War, even though the Dossier said it harms their position if Imperials win and Stormcloak victory should be avoided, I cannot see the effects being more than just plain annoyance.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Your just proving you are incapable of creating the scenario I mentioned as the methods and ways are completely sealed tight for you. For you, there is only two ways. Join Empire, expel the Empire's resources and destroy Stormcloaks. The next thing that happens is for the weakened Empire that has expend some energy to stab itself on the face has to fight the Aldmeri Dominion that would have slaughtered your Empire while it wasn't prepared...

      It is going to be Great War 2.0 for your precious Empire while the Aldmeri Dominion have been preparing to fight a different War to completely exterminate Man.

      For you there is only 1 path and about 3 different strategies that can be adopted. A path with strategies that everyone can see coming before you even make a move. One that will face skillful counter-strategems at every turn to every single thing you do.

      For the scenario I mentioned to occur, the person has to be at least a centillion times superior in strategies than a narrow strategic mind such as this.That is why I said it is extremely hard and impossible for you as it is at a level unfathomable to you even if you have an eternality trying to figure out.

      It is the same as asking someone who simply can't understand magic enough to use it to become immortal to try and become immortal using magic. They'll never be able to learn how to be immortal with magic and is better off becoming a vampire for the same purpose. 

      What you are saying is akin to claiming that it is impossible to become immortal via magic because you can't do it yourself and that the only way to become immortal is to get turned into a vampire.

      PS: Just because Ysgrammor has 500 Companions, doesn't mean the Companions are limited to 500 members. Changing leadership means chance for change.

      Same goes for College and Thieves' Guild. These factions are weak individually when we join, but in hands of a capable leader, 1 year can easily turn things around. With the civil war, there is a lot of opportunities. Maybe it hurts the Empire, Stormcloaks and everyone else, but if you're smart, this is an opportunity. Even the Khajiits Caravans can see opportunities to make a coin. Ulfric can use the situation to seize power, the Dragonborn can do the same, except much better than anyone else.

      Of course, 99.9999999999999999999999999999% of the Skyrim players probably don't have this level of strategic capabilities and that means the chance for the Dragonborn in canon to have this level of strategic capabilities is extremely low but not impossible.

      Except that you can't just go and say that the Empire will make the first move, because it won't. And now that its preparing and its Legions are at the border with the Dominion, things are different. That's not even mentioning the rebellions in Valenwood and the only reason the Khajiiti joining the Dominion was "Dawn Magicks which could be no more but a mere lie, which, if the Khajiiti find out, would weaken the Dominion severely.


      No, your claims are just utter nonsense, it has nothing to do with "being a strategical mastermind, if anything, you even thinking that these guilds will cooperate shows how little of realism you know. The College of Winterhold is isolated for a very good reason, because the people of Skyrim don't approve of them, and don't think Korir will keep it standing, nor that he will allow them to make big contact with the outside world.

      PS: Except that it is, their HQ is a bloody ship, Ysgramor came back with 500 companions, on 3 ships, so yeah, the Companions have even less members than 500, since there's no way all of that fits into Jorrvaskr.


      You're so deep into your little fanfic that you actually think that a petty army of warriors, an even more petty army of wizards, are even going to work with an illegal organisation like the DB and TG? Warriors who fight every battle, even if it means they could lose? Wizards who are so fixed on their studies that they barely use it for warfare? That's not even mentioning the Thieves Guild, which, the moment they go against the Empire, and thus Maven, would get destroyed. Or the Dark Brotherhood, which would in no way make contact with the outside world, seeing as they were just destroyed in Falkreath.


      And you say "after a year"? Well Spoiler alert: Within a year, the LDB is trapped in Apocrypha. Your little guild alliance will never remain stable after that, they won't agree on nearly anything, the College is overthinking things, the Companions want raw action, the TG care nothing about anything but themselves and the DB answers to the night mother.


      Your strategy, if you can even call something as petty as your claims that, is doomed to fail.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Either ways, the Empire and Stormcloaks are being carried around by the sinister waves known as strategies from the Thalmor. No matter who wins the Civil War, even though the Dossier said it harms their position if Imperials win and Stormcloak victory should be avoided, I cannot see the effects being more than just plain annoyance.

      And the reason you don't see it being more than just annoyance is because you're too deep into your own little fanfiction.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      And the reason you don't see it being more than just annoyance is because you're too deep into your own little fanfiction.

      It's not really being deep in fanfiction but rather to consider what is needed to effectively counter the Aldmeri Dominion. Besides, I am not saying a faction that acts like the Empire but on Guild scale can take on the entire Aldmeri Dominion on its own. Its supposed to counter the Thalmor's strategies and I even said that this is an exceptionally difficult thing to accomplished.

      Since you don't get what I'm saying as you don't need to get defensive or try to dismiss everything I say to hide the fact that you are totally lacking in strategy side because it is not shameful to be as lacking as you are in strategic acutement. 

      First when I say what it needs, it means what is necessary, not what can or cannot happen base on the limited options in the game. By becoming leader of various Guilds, it would means the Dragonborn would've spent at least 5 years in Skyrim. I've also stated you need to strengthen the Guilds meaning for this to work all the Guilds needs to be way stronger. Preferably about 10 to 1000 times stronger. Again, this is not base on what you see in the game but what must be achieved in the next 2 to 3 years for this to work against the Thalmor.

      I believed I mentioned a lot of times that you have an insane amount of goals to accomplished. Insanely difficult but not impossible. That includes Preparing the Guilds to be ABLE TO FUNCTION on the assumption that the Dragonborn will be killed or trapped. Since it doesn't register to you at all, I will spoon feed you with an example of what can be done for this to work. Have the Guilds form a Council of Guilds or something who can make decisions in case the Dragonborn is not available this. Out of all the options, I choose this because you have the Emperor and Elder Council as a comparison. The Guilds themselves are like the Provinces, the Council for the Guilds are like the Elder Council and the Dragonborn who is the leader of every Guild is the Emperor. 

      Like the Empire, the Elder Council were able to run the Empire in absence of an Emperor just fine. I am not talking about during the years after Oblivion Crisis. By preparing the Guilds this way it is one of the many ways you can prepare. I predict something you'll think off to dismiss so I will say this straight now. Since this is what MUST BE DONE you'll naturally need to ensure that the identities of the leaders as secretive as possible to avoid the Thalmor's radar, only the Dragonborn needs to be known to them.

      The Thalmor are actively looking for ways to weaken the Empire at the Empire's own expenses proven by how they would go as far as helping the Stormcloaks or Imperials to ensure the Civil War to continue. 

      There is no guarantee another one will not break out in another part of the Empire or if they've already have half or more of the Elder Council under their control making it even harder for the Emperor Mede II or his Successors to fight AD.

      They don't need to let members of the Elder Council know what the Thalmor is really after. They can always let the Nobles think that the Great War was solely religious and as long as they don't worship Talos in front of them, they'll be fine while the Thalmor cite the Empire to keep attacking the Stormcloaks in case of a Stormcloak victory or if the Imperials won, the Thalmor can continue their political games with the Empire, taking out dangerous individuals who are a threat to their interests without really going into war, Tullius is ultimately a Soldier and does not have real say whether to fight or not.

      The Emperor can desire to fight but if the Thalmor hasn't been slacking which they obviously are not, there is simply no way they haven't bring at least one member of the Elder Council under their control. The Thalmor can use Ulfric, they can definitely use Elder Council to undermine the Emperor.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:
      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      And the reason you don't see it being more than just annoyance is because you're too deep into your own little fanfiction.

      It's not really being deep in fanfiction but rather to consider what is needed to effectively counter the Aldmeri Dominion. Besides, I am not saying a faction that acts like the Empire but on Guild scale can take on the entire Aldmeri Dominion on its own. Its supposed to counter the Thalmor's strategies and I even said that this is an exceptionally difficult thing to accomplished.

      Since you don't get what I'm saying as you don't need to get defensive or try to dismiss everything I say to hide the fact that you are totally lacking in strategy side because it is not shameful to be as lacking as you are in strategic acutement. 

      First when I say what it needs, it means what is necessary, not what can or cannot happen base on the limited options in the game. By becoming leader of various Guilds, it would means the Dragonborn would've spent at least 5 years in Skyrim. I've also stated you need to strengthen the Guilds meaning for this to work all the Guilds needs to be way stronger. Preferably about 10 to 1000 times stronger. Again, this is not base on what you see in the game but what must be achieved in the next 2 to 3 years for this to work against the Thalmor.

      I believed I mentioned a lot of times that you have an insane amount of goals to accomplished. Insanely difficult but not impossible. That includes Preparing the Guilds to be ABLE TO FUNCTION on the assumption that the Dragonborn will be killed or trapped. Since it doesn't register to you at all, I will spoon feed you with an example of what can be done for this to work. Have the Guilds form a Council of Guilds or something who can make decisions in case the Dragonborn is not available this. Out of all the options, I choose this because you have the Emperor and Elder Council as a comparison. The Guilds themselves are like the Provinces, the Council for the Guilds are like the Elder Council and the Dragonborn who is the leader of every Guild is the Emperor. 

      Like the Empire, the Elder Council were able to run the Empire in absence of an Emperor just fine. I am not talking about during the years after Oblivion Crisis. By preparing the Guilds this way it is one of the many ways you can prepare. I predict something you'll think off to dismiss so I will say this straight now. Since this is what MUST BE DONE you'll naturally need to ensure that the identities of the leaders as secretive as possible to avoid the Thalmor's radar, only the Dragonborn needs to be known to them.

      The Thalmor are actively looking for ways to weaken the Empire at the Empire's own expenses proven by how they would go as far as helping the Stormcloaks or Imperials to ensure the Civil War to continue. 

      There is no guarantee another one will not break out in another part of the Empire or if they've already have half or more of the Elder Council under their control making it even harder for the Emperor Mede II or his Successors to fight AD.

      They don't need to let members of the Elder Council know what the Thalmor is really after. They can always let the Nobles think that the Great War was solely religious and as long as they don't worship Talos in front of them, they'll be fine while the Thalmor cite the Empire to keep attacking the Stormcloaks in case of a Stormcloak victory or if the Imperials won, the Thalmor can continue their political games with the Empire, taking out dangerous individuals who are a threat to their interests without really going into war, Tullius is ultimately a Soldier and does not have real say whether to fight or not.

      The Emperor can desire to fight but if the Thalmor hasn't been slacking which they obviously are not, there is simply no way they haven't bring at least one member of the Elder Council under their control. The Thalmor can use Ulfric, they can definitely use Elder Council to undermine the Emperor.

      I think you have no clue how guilds in Skyrim work. They are not your ordinary guild, nope, they aren't even real guilds to begin with. And since none of them have any need of a council, they wouldn't agree to forming one. Not to forget that from a lore-friendly perspective it's impossible to manage the guild affairs of multiple guilds at the same time, let alone becoming part of multiple ones. The Arch-Mage needs to stay at the college to ensure that everything goes as planned, expeditions, resources etc. Same thing goes with the Companions. The Listener needs to remain near the Night Mother and the Head of the Thieves Guild needs to keep thinking about ways to make sure the guild survives. There won't be time to form this council of yours in any realistic pov. Hence why you have no strategical insight, since it's impossible.


      I do hope you realise that the Thalmor are not helping the Imperials, right? Also, you keep claiming the Thalmor can take out anybody they see fit, but this is utter nonsense, not confirmed in the game and just more of your fanfiction at its work.


      No they can not. There's no logical way for them to do so, and therefor, they haven't done so.


      I suggest to stop bringing your illogical fanfic into a debate.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      I think you have no clue how guilds in Skyrim work. They are not your ordinary guild, nope, they aren't even real guilds to begin with. And since none of them have any need of a council, they wouldn't agree to forming one. Not to forget that from a lore-friendly perspective it's impossible to manage the guild affairs of multiple guilds at the same time, let alone becoming part of multiple ones. The Arch-Mage needs to stay at the college to ensure that everything goes as planned, expeditions, resources etc. Same thing goes with the Companions. The Listener needs to remain near the Night Mother and the Head of the Thieves Guild needs to keep thinking about ways to make sure the guild survives. There won't be time to form this council of yours in any realistic pov. Hence why you have no strategical insight, since it's impossible.


      I do hope you realise that the Thalmor are not helping the Imperials, right? Also, you keep claiming the Thalmor can take out anybody they see fit, but this is utter nonsense, not confirmed in the game and just more of your fanfiction at its work.


      No they can not. There's no logical way for them to do so, and therefor, they haven't done so.


      I suggest to stop bringing your illogical fanfic into a debate.

      You simply cannot see beyond anything directly in front of you. You are the one who can't realize that the Thalmor can't take out anyone as they see fit but the ones they can are the Stormcloaks and Imperials. They have been working towards this goal all the time according to the game.

      Just because you can't, doesn't mean other people can't do it. It is completely possible to manage every single guild at the same time while forming the mentioned council. That is the difference between having strategic insights and not having one like you.

      The way the guilds work, none of them needs a council. Just because they haven't done so, does not mean they can't. If the Dragonborn is the leader of all Guilds, which you think is physically impossible to manage all of them at the same time is in fact possible. In fact once the Dragonborn becomes the leader of all the Guilds, a council and an personal headquarters where all the Guilds' representatives meets up with the Dragonborn like this becomes all too beneficial to have and is not illogical as your lacking of insights failed to see. 

      I've already stated this is what must be done in Skyrim for the Dragonborn, not what you can do in Skyrim.

      This is not an illogical fanfic because I already stated this is just what must be done not what will happened. Your lack of insights is extremely obvious because despite knowing what the Thalmor wants, you can't seem to grasp their tactics are all for end game.

      Back to the main question: whether to join Imperials or Stormcloaks?

      The real answer is actually either because ultimately its the person playing who makes the decision.

      If you really needs reasoning to choose. The Stormcloaks and Imperials are fighting because of the treaty signed by the WGC at the end of the Great War about 25 years before the Events of Skyrim. This is further encouraged by the Thalmor. 

      The Stormcloaks wants to defeat the Thalmor and its Aldmeri Dominion without the Empire. During the Great War, it took the combined efforts of High Rock, Skyrim, Hammerfell and Cyrodiil to push the Aldmeri Dominion to the point where Hammerfell can fight them to a standstill.

      Looking at statistics, siding with the Imperials has nicer numbers as it equals to returning Skyrim to High Rock and Cyrodiil. 

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    • Have to agree with you, the thalmor can kill and capture anyone they like under " Talos Worshipping" and they protected by imperial laws. Just plant some talos amulet or talos figurine to some political figure which they want to remove and boom! gone!

      Also have to agree the empire are outplayed by the aldmeri dominion by every turn, probably due to a weak emperor. ( Hopefully the next guy have guts and brain. ) Even after beating the stormcloaks to a pulp the thalmor are still walking around whenever they like. Maybe the dragonborn can outplay the thalmor with some help from guilds.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote:
      Have to agree with you, the thalmor can kill and capture anyone they like under " Talos Worshipping" and they protected by imperial laws. Just plant some talos amulet or talos figurine to some political figure which they want to remove and boom! gone!

      Also have to agree the empire are outplayed by the aldmeri dominion by every turn, probably due to a weak emperor. ( Hopefully the next guy have guts and brain. ) Even after beating the stormcloaks to a pulp the thalmor are still walking around whenever they like. Maybe the dragonborn can outplay the thalmor with some help from guilds.

      I've already said, in terms of what is necessary or to have the greatest chance of defeating the Aldmeri Dominion is very different from the options available to the Dragonborn in the game.

      If you have to choose the options given to you in the game, Imperials look better because siding them will mean you'll have High Rock, Skyrim and Cyrodiil's power centralized in one government. This is more advantageous when they have a war foreshadowing at the end of the Civil War. 

      In terms of what was needed to give them the best chance against the Aldmeri Dominion, it is for the Dragonborn to take control. The Guilds are just a beginning. To fight an organization in possession of an Empire like the Aldmeri Dominion, just the Dragonborn alone isn't enough. 

      It helps a lot to have the Dragonborn, depending on the skills he possess, he may even guarantee victory in any battles he is involve in. But, the Dragonborn is one person. That is where doing something unheard of, something new, a change in how one runs the Guilds in Skyrim comes in.

      By becoming the Leader of every Guilds in Skyrim, you are going to be very busy. So instead of running around in Skyrim... remember that if you take middle ground from every sources of the lore that hints the size, Skyrim should be at least some 750,000 km² it is more viable for the Dragonborn to make an office of power or some sorts in one place where he can run all the guilds. If that is the case, to avoid conflict of interest among his guilds, the next step will be creating a council where they can not only avoid coming into conflict but benefit each other.

      The Pros of doing this, which is something new, a change in how things used to be like far outweighs the cons as not only the representatives of each guilds will get to know each other, the Dragonborn can train them to work with each other in case the Dragonborn is not present.

      Enforce it so strongly, do it so well that this council becomes a role model for every guilds in each Provinces. Rally them behind the Dragonborn.

      Also a certain Blademaster here seems to sure that the Dragonborn will surely be trapped in Apocrypha, that is wrong too. Nothing is set in stone, all they have is speculations. The dragonborn may, may not be trapped in Apocrypha. I mentioned before that not only the Stormcloaks and Imperials are imperfect, they are not satisfying for most people who plays the game. For the answer to the question I stated that siding Imperials looks better as the numbers look nicer. For an effective counter to the Thalmor threat, Dragonborn taking charge is the best option as it has the best odds against the AD.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      You simply cannot see beyond anything directly in front of you. You are the one who can't realize that the Thalmor can't take out anyone as they see fit but the ones they can are the Stormcloaks and Imperials. They have been working towards this goal all the time according to the game.

      Just because you can't, doesn't mean other people can't do it. It is completely possible to manage every single guild at the same time while forming the mentioned council. That is the difference between having strategic insights and not having one like you.

      The way the guilds work, none of them needs a council. Just because they haven't done so, does not mean they can't. If the Dragonborn is the leader of all Guilds, which you think is physically impossible to manage all of them at the same time is in fact possible. In fact once the Dragonborn becomes the leader of all the Guilds, a council and an personal headquarters where all the Guilds' representatives meets up with the Dragonborn like this becomes all too beneficial to have and is not illogical as your lacking of insights failed to see. 

      I've already stated this is what must be done in Skyrim for the Dragonborn, not what you can do in Skyrim.

      This is not an illogical fanfic because I already stated this is just what must be done not what will happened. Your lack of insights is extremely obvious because despite knowing what the Thalmor wants, you can't seem to grasp their tactics are all for end game.

      Back to the main question: whether to join Imperials or Stormcloaks?

      The real answer is actually either because ultimately its the person playing who makes the decision.

      If you really needs reasoning to choose. The Stormcloaks and Imperials are fighting because of the treaty signed by the WGC at the end of the Great War about 25 years before the Events of Skyrim. This is further encouraged by the Thalmor. 

      The Stormcloaks wants to defeat the Thalmor and its Aldmeri Dominion without the Empire. During the Great War, it took the combined efforts of High Rock, Skyrim, Hammerfell and Cyrodiil to push the Aldmeri Dominion to the point where Hammerfell can fight them to a standstill.

      Looking at statistics, siding with the Imperials has nicer numbers as it equals to returning Skyrim to High Rock and Cyrodiil. 

      No they haven't. If they had there'd be mention of it, but there's none.


      No it is not. It's impossible to become the head of every guild and still do all of their jobs, simply because locations are too different. Arch-Mage needs to be in Winterhold at all times, Harbringer at Jorvaskrr, Listener at the Night Mother and the leader of the Thieves Guild, well he can go anywhere. So that's a max of 2 guilds, of which one is insignificant.


      Except that it is. The Thieves Guild gains nothing from said alliance, if anything, it loses things. Creating potential enemies is something neither the TG nor the DB wants. And, since magic is frowned upon by traditional Nords, the Companions wouldn't take kindly to the College.


      It doesn't matter if it's a "must be done" if it's impossible to accomplish, even in a lore-friendly manner.


      And I think it's hilarious how you keep saying this is gameplay, not lore, yet continue to press as if the DB is the only way for an outcome to come in the Civil War.


      As for the CW, the morally right side to join is the Empire.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      No they haven't. If they had there'd be mention of it, but there's none.


      No it is not. It's impossible to become the head of every guild and still do all of their jobs, simply because locations are too different. Arch-Mage needs to be in Winterhold at all times, Harbringer at Jorvaskrr, Listener at the Night Mother and the leader of the Thieves Guild, well he can go anywhere. So that's a max of 2 guilds, of which one is insignificant.


      Except that it is. The Thieves Guild gains nothing from said alliance, if anything, it loses things. Creating potential enemies is something neither the TG nor the DB wants. And, since magic is frowned upon by traditional Nords, the Companions wouldn't take kindly to the College.


      It doesn't matter if it's a "must be done" if it's impossible to accomplish, even in a lore-friendly manner.


      And I think it's hilarious how you keep saying this is gameplay, not lore, yet continue to press as if the DB is the only way for an outcome to come in the Civil War.


      As for the CW, the morally right side to join is the Empire.

      Almost impossible to extremely difficult is not Impossible. One sure mark of a fool to dismiss something beyond their capabilities as impossible. Dude, how many times must I state? 

      If this point, I said so many times that it is what IS necessary and must be done. Have you ever heard of problem solving?

      Every single guild has everything to gain from the council and I've already stated that it is possible to become the leader of every guilds as it all boils down to time management. Also you mistaken the limited gameplay mechanics of Skyrim for the duties of a Guild leader.

      If you truly become the leader of all guilds, the Companions would need to learn to shut the fuck up because their Harbringer is the fucking Archmage of the College. Tsun also mentioned that Nords forgotten their respect for the clever craft. That is something the Dragonborn can remedy. 

      Magic was generally frown upon because of their Nord culture and the Great Collapse event. Its all about solving the problems they face because there will be plenty of problems to be faced in this rigorous path.. 

      Companions, College, Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood can't get along? You cannot physically manage all of them? Having to manage all the guilds, time management becomes a challenge. A challenge that is a problem to be solved asap.

      One of the solution based on the scenario I stated previously. To create a centralized office for the Dragonborn to interact and manage all the guilds from.

      The Dragonborn has the option to build a mansions from the Hearthfire DLC. There are Windstad Manor, Lakeview manor and Heljarchen Hall.

      While there is no option in game, there is no reason why the Dragonborn can't use the wealth he accumulated, build a safehouse in the manor where he keeps the Night Mother's Coffin hide it together with Cicero if he survives. The Dragonborn can choose one of the manor and refurbish parts of it into a Guild Council Hall where he starts off with meeting various Guild leaders

      Companions stays at Whiterun they can go down for meeting whenever they need the Dragonborn to make a decision or seek his counsel. Even if you take a realistic approach to the size of Skyrim, the journey shouldn't even take more than three days.

      Thieves Guild once restored by the Dragonborn had re-established their fence across Skyrim shows their information network is solid and the leaders shouldn't have problem contacting the Dragonborn in his Council Hall.

      Dark Brotherhood was in Falkreath anyways, they can kidnap the Dragonborn the night he kills Grelod shows their resourcefulness. A little travel distance is not going to stop them.

      I am aware that Levitation spells was written off as a illegal spell to justify Bethesda wanting to hide all the problems it'll cause to Oblivion and Skyrim, Mark and Recall is still legal in the game just removed from gameplay. (Way better than fast travel)

      That said, College of Winterhold has no reason why they cannot come down to the Dragonborn's Manor and mark it so they can use Teleportation spell to get to his Guild Council Halls in case he is not in the College. 

      He doesn't have to outright force the various leaders to sit in the same hall together but rather slowly make them meet up and deal with the matters personally, slowly delegate to the smartest younger members who are easier to influence if the older members don't see your way.

      All these can be done, just not available in Skyrim's limited gameplay options.

      There is no morally correct side in Politics. One has to be naive to extreme to believe that. History books are the only thing to say which poltical side is correct and history books are written by winners to justify their actions.

      If the Empire wins, they'll demonize Ulfric more than he actually is, it won't be surprised nor  unbelievable for the Empire to say that Ulfric was actually a sadist who enjoys murdering a Non-Nord baby once per day and forces all who wants to join Stormcloaks to do the same etc...

      If the Stormcloaks wins, it is not surprising nor unbelievable for the Stormcloaks to claim that the Mede Empire were evil talentless losers who were utterly demolished by the Aldmeri Dominion and that Battle of Red Ring was in fact not a victory but just another defeat that was glorified to cover up for the Empire's failure etc...

      Just because they haven't done it doesn't mean they shouldn't try something new and different, to change things. I am not talking about options available in game but things that can be done in their circumstances. The Guilds doesn't get along and never will is your assumption. There will be conflict without a doubt but this is just another problem to be solved should it arise. In fact it should rise as soon as possible so they can sort it out eariler.

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    • Stop talking about joining all of the guilds together. Not only is it hypothetical, but it also has no place on this thread. If you truly want to talk about such a thing, make your own thread.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:
      Stop talking about joining all of the guilds together. Not only is it hypothetical, but it also has no place on this thread. If you truly want to talk about such a thing, make your own thread.

      I actually decided to move it over to his talkpage, since I also realised this wasn't the place.


      On topic:


      I still stand with the Legion, the Stormcloaks' cause is just, but they are misguided and fighting the wrong enemy.

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    • I also support the empire, because political corruption is still better than slaughtering masses of "other races" for a just cause.

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    • I stand with the dragonborn as he/she the only one who can make things right.

      Stormcloaks Victory:

      Tullius: "We aren't the bad guys you know." Ulfric: "Maybe not, but you certainly aren't the good guys." Tullius: "Perhaps you're right. But then what does that make you?" Ulfric: "You just said it yourself." Galmar: "It makes us right." Tullius: "And if I surrender?" Ulfric: "The Empire I remember never surrendered."

      But the legion also certainly not the good guys so what makes the stormcloaks?

      Empire Victory:

      Rikke: "Step aside Galmar. We're here to accept Ulfric's surrender." Ulfric: "I'll never surrender Skyrim into the hands of a corrupt and dying Empire." Rikke: "Skyrim doesn't belong to you, Ulfric." Ulfric: "No... But I belong to her."

      Ulfric and Tullius Conversation....

      This conversation concludes the civil war, even Tullius cannot say he is morally right till the end and Ulfric believes he is fighting for Skyrim till his death. Galmar and Rikke is 100% supporter for their cause so its up to the dragonborn to decide.

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    • All I can say is in terms of who has better chance against the Aldmeri Dominion, siding with the Empire on paper has better statistics. More provinces unified, having a larger force and less number of factions for politics.

      Although if you look at it, the Empire and Stormcloaks lost the moment they fight. But the whole situation was a win win for the Thalmor right off the bat as it was the result of the many years of planning and execution of those plans. They were not perfect the Thalmor definitely had most of their goals accomplished or were constantly moving closer to their goals.

      The destruction of Stormcloaks by Imperials, (Nords and whatever minorities that are crazy enough to join them) are Empire killing itself.

      The destruction of Imperial Legion by Stormcloaks are not different as it is former part of the Empire killing the Empire.

      Either ways, the Thalmor already won as the rift between Nords and Imperials had widen enough for a sizable group of people in Skyrim to start a war with the Imperial Legion. In the Thalmor Dossier, they stated that an Imperial victory will harm their position in Skyrim and Stormcloak victory must be avoided as well. The Thalmor Dossier is so painfully obvious that they are looking at the end game. Let both sides fight the way they did in the events of Skyrim until Skyrim becomes to weak on its own or support the Empire. After all it was the support from High Rock, Hammerfell and Skyrim which allowed the Empire to withstand the AD invasion during the Great War.

      The Thalmor signed a truce with a far more favorable terms with Hammerfell which opens path for negotiating with the Redguards to sit out of the Empire's war, cite the Civil War in Skyrim and let them fight as long as possible. They've still got ways to go before they reach their goals but they are definitely moving towards it one step at a time.

      Decision lies in the hands of the really smart ones. Not just the Dragonborn. If the Dragonborn participate in the Civil War, he'll just be an extremely powerful dumb one. The ones who let the Stormcloaks and Imperials fight it out for the Thalmor's entertainment while they watch from the side lines... make no mistake, most of them aren't the really smart ones but those who just waiting for the time to be riped to act. These are the smart ones. Of course you'll be lucky if they even occupy 0.1% of Skyrim's entire population. But this 0.1% of the population is more relevant than the remaining 99.99% of Skyrim.

      One way to identify an individual of such caliber is a fanfic scenario where a bloody joker got the entire Thalmor Embassy massacred and burned to the ground, proceeds to plant "evidence" that it was the vocal Anti-Thalmor Stormcloaks who did it right when the Stormcloaks had an upper hand in the Civil War against the Empire, proceeds to laugh at the Thalmor and Ulfric Stormcloak like a fucking Hyena.

      This is the type who knows what they're doing. I do not believe Skyrim is completely devoid of people who can see through the Civil War as a Thalmor's ploy and can actually do something about it to make the Thalmor scream in horror

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    • I've decided its all about your character build.

      My first character build was a Nord with a battle hammer that smashed his way through everything.  He was stongly loyal to the Nords, the Nordic way of life, and to the Stormcloaks.

      My current character build is an orphaned half dunmer (mother side)/half imperial (father side) from Cyrodiil.  Father was conscripted into the Empire army during the Great War and is currently missing in action.  Mother was killed during a Thalmor raid.  She is currently in Skyrim following up on a lead that her father was transferred to the legion there.  She holds the Empire responsible for the loss of her parents.  While she hasn't fully sided with the Stormcloaks (yet?), she is definitely a sympathizer.

      I agree with most of the posts that point out that overall the Empire is better for the longevity of Skyrim.  I still really enjoy creating characters that have a reason to join the Stormcloaks. 

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    • BadWolf1677 wrote: I've decided its all about your character build.

      My current character build is an orphaned half dunmer (mother side)/half imperial (father side) from Cyrodiil.  Father was conscripted into the Empire army during the Great War and is currently missing in action.  Mother was killed during a Thalmor raid.  She is currently in Skyrim following up on a lead that her father was transferred to the legion there.  She holds the Empire responsible for the loss of her parents.  While she hasn't fully sided with the Stormcloaks (yet?), she is definitely a sympathizer.

      There are a few things with the second one that I don't get.

      1. If the Thalmor killed her mother, she should know that an independent Skyrim that goes to war with the Dominion is bound to get destroyed, shouldn't she side with the Empire, and try to wait until it has recovered enough strenght?


      2. If her father is in the Legion, why would she join the Stormcloaks? That would mean she could be ordered to kill her father and vice-versa. Not to forget that her fellow Stormcloaks might also run into him and kill him. Wouldn't it be better if she and her father stood side by side?

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    • She blames the empire for her lost, and if the dragonborn joins the stormcloak they could even beat aldmeri dominion and empire combined. FUS RO DAH! There is nothing the dragonborn cannot achieve.

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    • 103.245.88.253 wrote: She blames the empire for her lost, and if the dragonborn joins the stormcloak they could even beat aldmeri dominion and empire combined. FUS RO DAH! There is nothing the dragonborn cannot achieve.

      Except for, you know, escaping Apocrypha and truly getting the Stormcloaks to a point of victory.

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    • Load your character and open up your inventory, there is a black book to move in and out of apocrypha. 

      Join the stormcloaks and dark brotherhood, u chop off the head of the emperor and general tullius.

      If you have weak equipment and havent level up properly you cant beat both quest.

      I've done both the empire and stormcloak mission, both are imperfect. A fallen empire vs rising rebellion, in real life it is probably better to stick with the empire to keep the peace. But in gaming aspect, joining a rising rebellion againts the aldmeri dominion and its empire dog will make a better song.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      BadWolf1677 wrote: I've decided its all about your character build.

      My current character build is an orphaned half dunmer (mother side)/half imperial (father side) from Cyrodiil.  Father was conscripted into the Empire army during the Great War and is currently missing in action.  Mother was killed during a Thalmor raid.  She is currently in Skyrim following up on a lead that her father was transferred to the legion there.  She holds the Empire responsible for the loss of her parents.  While she hasn't fully sided with the Stormcloaks (yet?), she is definitely a sympathizer.

      There are a few things with the second one that I don't get.

      1. If the Thalmor killed her mother, she should know that an independent Skyrim that goes to war with the Dominion is bound to get destroyed, shouldn't she side with the Empire, and try to wait until it has recovered enough strenght?


      2. If her father is in the Legion, why would she join the Stormcloaks? That would mean she could be ordered to kill her father and vice-versa. Not to forget that her fellow Stormcloaks might also run into him and kill him. Wouldn't it be better if she and her father stood side by side?

      Your comments are appreciated.  It is still a work in process, with a few holes. I'm also trying to make sure that the back story fits lore.  So I'm thinking the story goes something like this...

      Mother (Dunmer mage) was a special envoy to Cyrodiil from the Dunmer Great House Telvanni.  She falls in love with a peasant Imperial.  They get married, she gets shunned because of the Telvanni lack of respect for everybody else.  They have a daughter (my character Nightwish Maidenblade - grows up to be a Nightblade/Spellsword).  Father conscripted against his will into the Imperial army for the Great War (think one of those sappy flashbacks where the 3 year old barely remembers father being drug off to war, running after him crying, etc.). Mother killed in raid.  The Telvanni refuse to accept Nightwish because she is a half breed, Father's family was wiped out in the same raid.  So, she grows up in an orphanage run by the Empire military.  All the orphans are taught to drill and combat skills so that if they are not adopted, they are conscripted into army when they reach the age of adulthood.  Being Dunmer/Imperial she easily learns one-handed combat and is naturally gifted in most of the disciplines of Magika.  Nightwish runs away shortly before she is to be conscripted.  Following a lead that her Father's legion may have been transferred to Skyrim after the Great War, she heads to Skyrim.  She also plans to attend the College of Winterhold because she wants to refine her skills in Conjuration and Destruction.  While crossing the boarder into Skyrim, she is arrested, taken to Helgen...

      So...I was thinking she has plenty of reasons to resent the Empire - Father taken away against his will and now lost, blames Empire for not protecting from invading Thalmor, bad experiences growing up in military orphanage, and she is now considered a deserter for running away.  Then there is that whole beheading thing in Helgen, which is just icing on the cake.  I also think that by leaving Helgen with  Ralof, she ingratiates herself to the Stormcloaks, who are willing to overlook her race and accept her into their ranks.

      I'm not convinced that she would join the Stormcloaks, which is why I indicated she is a sympathizer, but hadn't joined, yet.  Any other thoughts or obvious plot holes?  Additional comments would be appreciated.

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    • BadWolf1677 wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      BadWolf1677 wrote: I've decided its all about your character build.

      My current character build is an orphaned half dunmer (mother side)/half imperial (father side) from Cyrodiil.  Father was conscripted into the Empire army during the Great War and is currently missing in action.  Mother was killed during a Thalmor raid.  She is currently in Skyrim following up on a lead that her father was transferred to the legion there.  She holds the Empire responsible for the loss of her parents.  While she hasn't fully sided with the Stormcloaks (yet?), she is definitely a sympathizer.

      There are a few things with the second one that I don't get.

      1. If the Thalmor killed her mother, she should know that an independent Skyrim that goes to war with the Dominion is bound to get destroyed, shouldn't she side with the Empire, and try to wait until it has recovered enough strenght?


      2. If her father is in the Legion, why would she join the Stormcloaks? That would mean she could be ordered to kill her father and vice-versa. Not to forget that her fellow Stormcloaks might also run into him and kill him. Wouldn't it be better if she and her father stood side by side?

      Your comments are appreciated.  It is still a work in process, with a few holes. I'm also trying to make sure that the back story fits lore.  So I'm thinking the story goes something like this...

      Mother (Dunmer mage) was a special envoy to Cyrodiil from the Dunmer Great House Telvanni.  She falls in love with a peasant Imperial.  They get married, she gets shunned because of the Telvanni lack of respect for everybody else.  They have a daughter (my character Nightwish Maidenblade - grows up to be a Nightblade/Spellsword).  Father conscripted against his will into the Imperial army for the Great War (think one of those sappy flashbacks where the 3 year old barely remembers father being drug off to war, running after him crying, etc.). Mother killed in raid.  The Telvanni refuse to accept Nightwish because she is a half breed, Father's family was wiped out in the same raid.  So, she grows up in an orphanage run by the Empire military.  All the orphans are taught to drill and combat skills so that if they are not adopted, they are conscripted into army when they reach the age of adulthood.  Being Dunmer/Imperial she easily learns one-handed combat and is naturally gifted in most of the disciplines of Magika.  Nightwish runs away shortly before she is to be conscripted.  Following a lead that her Father's legion may have been transferred to Skyrim after the Great War, she heads to Skyrim.  She also plans to attend the College of Winterhold because she wants to refine her skills in Conjuration and Destruction.  While crossing the boarder into Skyrim, she is arrested, taken to Helgen...

      So...I was thinking she has plenty of reasons to resent the Empire - Father taken away against his will and now lost, blames Empire for not protecting from invading Thalmor, bad experiences growing up in military orphanage, and she is now considered a deserter for running away.  Then there is that whole beheading thing in Helgen, which is just icing on the cake.  I also think that by leaving Helgen with  Ralof, she ingratiates herself to the Stormcloaks, who are willing to overlook her race and accept her into their ranks.

      I'm not convinced that she would join the Stormcloaks, which is why I indicated she is a sympathizer, but hadn't joined, yet.  Any other thoughts or obvious plot holes?  Additional comments would be appreciated.

      Seems fine the way it is now.

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    • I side with the stormcloaks every play through except my orc and imperial play through I felt bad killing ulfric asking me specifically I don’t feel bad for killing tullius because he wanted me a innocent to be exicuted while ulfric was a prisoner like me but that’s just my opinion.

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    • this jauffre guy is so delusional I don't even know where to start. LOL

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    • this is so funny ive ready through this whole thread and is it really THAT serious

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    • Well, the war was pretty much over by the beginning of the game.

      If you remove the Dragonborn off the ecuation there is no reason for Alduin to attack Helgen, so Ulfric's head goes off, end of story.

      I mean, for those saying that without the Dragonborn the Civil War is even.

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    • ^Exactly.

      Legion wins.

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    • Raven deRouge wrote:
      Well, the war was pretty much over by the beginning of the game.

      If you remove the Dragonborn off the ecuation there is no reason for Alduin to attack Helgen, so Ulfric's head goes off, end of story.

      I mean, for those saying that without the Dragonborn the Civil War is even.

      It's also my reasoning. What do you think would have happened to the Stormcloaks if Ulfric's head was cut off? Personally, I think we would have another Forsworn-like faction on our backs doing small raids but nothing concrete (Forsworn are such a pain in the ass). I doubt they can rally behind anyone else and that's one of their weakness compariring to the empire.

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    • I tend to go imperial when running a thief character. The ties the Thieves Guild has to the empire make it seem to mesh slightly better from an ideological stand point, increased corruption and most contracts leading to pro-imperial outcomes via helping their sympathizers gain power in some way, Maven being the main example of this connection but their are others too if you do some digging. Not surprising though considering the lore of the guild.

      Depends what you're doing in your playthrough though, if you aren't bothering with the guild storyline, then could go in any direction really. 

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    • 86.29.86.229 wrote:
      I tend to go imperial when running a thief character. The ties the Thieves Guild has to the empire make it seem to mesh slightly better from an ideological stand point, increased corruption and most contracts leading to pro-imperial outcomes via helping their sympathizers gain power in some way, Maven being the main example of this connection but their are others too if you do some digging. Not surprising though considering the lore of the guild.

      Depends what you're doing in your playthrough though, if you aren't bothering with the guild storyline, then could go in any direction really. 

      Funny, that makes sense if you're a thief you follow their faction. I assume you also choose to be an Imperial (as in the race) for more cash ;)

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    • A FANDOM user
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