1. Atmorans, as the name implies, were humans who returned to Tamriel from Atmora. The Nedes, on the other hand, are more native and didn't really leave Tamriel.
2. Do you mean whether or not their interbreeding led to Cyrodiils, Nords etc? If so, to an extent. The Nords are the 'purest' strand of Atmora, whereas the Cyrodiils are descended from Atmorans who interbreed with Nedic tribes further south. The Redguards, however, are descended from the Yokudans, but I'm sure over time they've interbred a bit with other humans (particularly the initial Ra'Gada warrior wave) but not really enough to be noticeable or influence their ancestry. The Bretons also have Nedic blood, resulting from Man-Mer breeding in the First Era.
3. They are quite similar, compared to some of the other races in Tamriel, but I suppose it would be because of the different climates they have become accustomed to and the varying levels of Atmoran blood.
4. The Redguards are, primarily, descended from a strand of the Wandering Ehlnofey who settled on a continent to the west of Tamriel, called Yokuda, before returning after a cataclysmic event (likely caused by the Ansei) destroyed most of Yokuda. There's still a few remnant island chains though.
Regarding your answer to Q2. Weren't the Bretons the product of Atmorans/Nords with Aldmer/Altmer? I would have to check to be sure, will update once I find more, but I thought it should be said.
What I don't understand is how several 'sources' claim that the Atmorans were the first Men that came to Tamriel, the Mer already being there in the form of Falmer and Dwemer (hence it was called Mermeth by the Atmorans), but the same 'sources' claim that the Nedic have always been there as well.
Sadly it is hard to find proper explanations, as more than half is conjecture and the other half is conflicting. But I theorized that the Nedic might be a similar product of a force (Ehlnofey perhaps?) like the Argonians were from the Hist, which would explain how they always lived on Tamriel, if in another form, and the Atmorans could still be the first Men to settle on Tamriel.
Stupid perhaps, but seeing your insight in the questions that you answered, of which I was only unaware of answer four in that much detail, I would very much like to hear your thoughts. Seeing as it kinda relates to the OP, I hope the author doesn't mind.
As for the first, yes, but I think Nede/Aldmer would be more accurate than Nord/Altmer.
As for the second, I believe some of the confusion stems from 'Before the Ages of Man' which confuses the term Nedic and Atmoran. Among the various sources, I think 'Frontier, Conquest' describes what occured best. You see, after the Ehlnofey Wars, between the two groups which would later be called the Old Ehlnofey and the Wandering Ehlnofey, the former won and drove the latter from Tamriel. The Wandering Ehlnofey were the progenitors of Man, who spread to Atmora and Yokuda. However, a few remnant human undoubtably hung around in Tamriel, but the contient was utterly dominated by Mer, which is why the Cyrodiils were held as slaves. It was not until the Return that humans had some more semblance of freedom, and held another strong kingdom after the Yoku returned. So, indeed, the Ehlnofey did have some influence.I think that part of the matter is, that the human presence on a Merrish contient was so little that they had no real impact until the return from the Atmora, which Man a much greater position against Mer.
Hmm, whether it were Aldmer or Altmer would be impossible to say without knowing the exact date of the first recording of a Breton and the segmentation of the Aldmer in the various Mer groups, which I believe gave birth to the Altmer. So that too will always remain up for debate. Not that it is a major issue.
Concerning the Elhnofey and their descendants: That would certainly be a very plausible explanation. I cannot recal the contents of that book, but i will certainly look into that some more to get a better understanding. It would certainly explain the slightly higher affinity for magic that the Imperials have, as no doubt the few remnants of humans would produce offspring due to their, unwanted, intermingling with the Merrish oppressors, until they grew large enough to sustain themselves. Of course, that is also pure conjecture, but it seems feasable enough.
There is a Youtube publisher that has his own 'show' where he uploads a 10 minute piece of lore concerning one topic. He discussed the Redguard in on of them, and the Yodudan continent briefly, in which he stated that the Redguard fought with, unless I am mistaken, the Breton and the Khajit to get the land that is now Hammerfell. It would indicate that they came after the Bretons came to be, which would in turn indicate that the Atmorans had already situated themselves in Skyrim and started one of the two First Empires. I am saying this because I do not completely understand why you say held another strong kingdom after the Yoku returned". I assume that you mean the Redguard when you mentioned the Yoku.
I am very happy by the way to found such a knowledgeable person by the way, who I can discuss thse kinds of things with.
This is actually the second time I have used this function of Wikia, not having felt the need to look further down. It was only because the location of this question was so small that I saw this thread that piqued my interest. I am glad I did and will certainly look for these kinds of topics more. Or perchance pose a few on my own in relevant pages.
Do you mean ShoddyCast when you reference the YouTube series? If not, I would be interested to see any other lore series on YouTube.
As for answering the question, the Yokudans did indeed land on Tamriel after both the Atmorans and the arising of the Bretons. What I meant by my comment was, before the return of many of the Humans, Tamriel was dominated by Elves. When the Atmorans landed in Skyrim, however, they carved out a strong kingdom which never again fell to the forces of Mer (they did spread to and conquer areas of other countries, which they eventualy lost, but never relinquished Skyrim itself). Then, when the Yokudans came, which was around 1E 800 (the Atmorans landed in the Merethic Era), the era of Hammerfell became another strong, human kingdom which also helped cement Man's legacy on Tamriel. Some peoples did inhabit the land that would become Hammerfell, namely 'beast folk' (according to the Pocket Guide to the Empire), as well as Orcs, and Bretons in the northern areas nearer to High Rock. However, I would not say any cohesive human kingdom formed until the creation of Hammerfell by the Ra'Gada, which was beneficial to Man.
As for the Altmer/Aldmer, I would agree that it is a bit ambigious, which was why I said 'more accurate' rather than definetely. Some Aldmer did colonise the continent, and I would not be surprised if the interbreeding occured rather early in history. I recall a story about a Nordic hunting party stumbling upon Bretons who appeared to have existed for quite a while. Of course, the Bretons did were not able to really rule High Rock until the power of the Direnni waned, particularly after their fight with the Alessian Order weakened them, so I guess some of the history might be a murky. I do think, though, that with the early presence of the Nedes, it would make more sense for still Aldmer, undifferentiated individuals to have begun the process, but I can see a case for the Altmer I suppose. I just think that point in the timeline, coupled with the Aldmer spreading throughout and colonising parts of Tamriel, supports the former.
Hmm the way i thought it went down was,before Ysgramor a smaller amount of Atmorans settled in tamriel and evolved and changed to fit the landscape and eventually became the Nedes.IIRC i read something that said when the aldmer landed on Tamriel there were no other intelligent races(besides a few things that suggest maybe anscestors of Argonians and Khajiit were around).
1. Atmorans come from the continent of Atmora which is north of Tamriel. The Nedes are the native humans of Tamriel mostly living in Cyrodiil.
2. Imperials are what happened when Atmorans and Nedes interbreed. Aldmer and Nedes or Atmorans, it is debated which, created the Bretons. Nords are the pure-blooded descendants of the Atmorans so they technically be called Atmorans.
3. Nords are of pure Atmoran blood but Imperials are a mix of Nedes and Atmorans. Also Imperials and their Nedic ancestors are dark of skin because of the hotter climate of Cyrodiil.
4. The Redguards are from the sunken continent of Yokuda which is west of Tamriel. They are one of the groups of the Wandering Ehlnofey, which are the ancestors of all men while the Old Ehlnofey are the ancestors of mer. They went to Tamriel when they realized that their homeland was being destroyed.
Atmorans are the proto-Nordic race of WE(Wandering Ehlnofey) descendants who migrated from Snow-Throat to Atmora. Nords, while they are the "purest Atmoran blood," have Nedic blood. Nords are not Atmorans by any stretch of the imagination anymore than Imperials are Nedes.
Nedes are the descendants of WE who remained in Tamriel. The purest "Nedes" are the Cryodilics(remember that Imperial means anyone of Atmoran descent in Tamriel, not the race in game). Cryodilics are split into the Tsaesci Nibenese and the Nordic Colovians. The Clovians are more related to the Nords, the Nibenese are more related to the race of men from Akavir. All Imperials have some Ayleid blood as well.
Bretons are the hybrid race of Nedic, Nordic, and Aldmeri ancestors. Some have more Atmoran some have more Nedic, similar to Cyrodilics. Keep in mind that Bretons are not "half-elves" they are more Man than Mer, despite the name Manmer.
Redguards are for the most part not of the same blood as the rest of the humans in Tamriel, which explains their unique culture.
All Men on Tamriel, however, are the descendants of the Wandering Ehlnofey, the Aedric spirits who willingly cast aside their immortality to escape the Grey Maybe and achieve Lorkhan's dream for his brethern, as opposed to the Mer's ancestor spirits, the Old Ehlnofey. As such, almost all Men worship Lorkhan in some shape or form, the Redguards are the odd ones out, but they too accept Talos now, the Missing God, now found.
I can remember once reading that Bretons came about first as proto-Bretons After the Druids, Nede and Altmer assimilated eachother in invasion and migration. Around this time they would have looked something like the Chimer and were refered as 'Manmer' but that changed when the Nordic empire reached High Rock. The Nords built the most well known cities in High Rock around that time, such as Daggerfall. The proto-Bretons assimilated the Nords through acculturism and migration, but no invasion,and the Nordic empire retreated, with the Nordic cities claimed. This is when the Bretons will have got their full on human appearance, pale skin and fairer colours of hair and eyes. At some point, two groups of Bretons diverged, one that believed that they should believe in the old pagan gods, and one that believed it should stick with Imperial beleifs. The latter stayed in mainland High Rock and pushed the pagans(later known as Forsworn) into the reaches of Skyrim and High Rock. The Forsworn eventually started breeding with the Orsimer and the Nords(even more). As for the Nords, they're mostly Atmoran with little bit of Nede. And the Imperials are a little bit of everything, but mostly Nedic.
The distinctions between the Atmorans, the ancient Nords and the Nords of the present day involve some subtlety. As others have pointed out, the Atmorans themselves were one of three groups of early Men who descended directly from the Wandering Ehlnofey (the second group being the Yokudans, the ancestors of the modern-day Redguards, with the third group being the ancestors of the now extinct humans of Akavir).
The Atmorans were the first of these three groups of the race of Men to (re)discover the continent of Tamriel sometime during the Merethic era, which at the time was dominated entirely by Mer. These Atmoran settlers established the first city of Men on the continent, known as Saarthal, in the nothern tip of Tamriel. After the Night of Tears and Saarthal's subsequent destruction by the Snow Elves, Ysgramor would return with the famed Five-Hundred Companions and went on a campaign of conquest against the Mer of Skyrim, and due to their actions and sacrifices Men would succesfully establish an independent foothold in Tamriel for the first time in history.
The ancient Nords were the people who arose from the Atmorans interbreeding with the local Nedic human population of Skyrim. While this mixed "Normanesque" culture was something new from a biological perspective, it's important to note that the first generations of Nords were still entirely steeped in the Atmoran culture, practices and belief systems. Also of note here is that the "ancient Nords", as a group, must still have included "pure-blooded" Atmorans at this point in history, as not all the Companions and Atmoran settlers that came after would marry Nedes -- some also still wed amongst themselves. (I have this pet theory that the rare "Hulking Draugr" enemies you sometimes encounter in Nordic ruins were actually "pure-blooded" Atmorans rather than ancient Nords.)
Over the countless centuries, and indeed millenia, the population of Skyrim gradually became completely mixed between these Atmoran and Nede bloodlines, until there were only modern-day Nords (people of Skyrim who are of mixed Atmoran and Nede descent) and no longer any "pure-blooded" Atmorans left. This state of affairs thus describes the present-day Nord population of Skyrim.
On that note, there exists a common misconception that the Nords are basically the "Vikings" of the Elder Scrolls universe. This is not the case. It is the Atmorans who are the Vikings of the ES universe; the Nords are more accurately described as the "Normans" of ES. Look up the subject on Wikipedia for more information about this.
The Viking/Norman distinction that Bethesda based the Atmoran/Nord distinction on for the ES lore is shown most clearly in the shamanistic belief system of "pure-blooded" Atmorans, who worshipped a variety of animals as the avatars of the Aedra, reflecting the pagan religious beliefs of the "pure-blooded" Vikings of real-life history. By contrast, the ethnically mixed Nords are shown to be ardent believers in the Nine Divines (Talos in particular), which reflects the legendary Christian zeal of the ethnically mixed Normans from real-life history.
On that note, there exists a common misconception that the Nords are basically the "Vikings" of the Elder Scrolls universe. This is not the case. It is the Atmorans who are the Vikings of the ES universe...
Or perhaps we could recognise that every culture in TES has multiple real life influences in addition to having their own original ideas, and that no race can be relegated to having a single counterpart in our world.
1. What is the difference between Atmorans and Nedes?
Atmorans are the ancestors of the Nords (and are basically the same) the Nedes are native humans of Tamriel but I believe they were small in number and are now extinct (am I right?)
2. Did their interbreeding create the others?
No. I'll explain more in a minute.
3. Why did the Nords and Imperials differ in evolution?
Imperials are a cross bred race of all the other humans, I'll explain more in a minute.
4. Where do redguards come from?
They come from a now disappeared land mass in the west called Yokunda.
The Nords and the Redguards are the only "pure bred" humans on Tamriel. They direct decendants of the Atmorans and Yokudans respectively and I assume they are pretty similar to the inhabitants of those continents. The Bretons and Imperials are mixed races. The Bretons are a mix of Atmorans and Elves. The Imperials are a mixed race of all humans, so they are Nords+Bretons+Redguards. This is because of their central location and because of the Empire. The Empire created the Imperials, not the other way around.
King in the North wrote:
Or perhaps we could recognise that every culture in TES has multiple real life influences in addition to having their own original ideas, and that no race can be relegated to having a single counterpart in our world.
These things need not be mutually exclusive. The Nords are a fictional culture of the TES universe which is based on the original ideas of Bethesda's writers, yet these writers were inspired by the real-life account of the Normans which was written by the 11th century historian & Benedictine monk, Goffredo Malaterra:
"Specially marked by cunning, despising their own inheritance in the hope of winning a greater, eager after both gain and dominion, given to imitation of all kinds, holding a certain mean between lavishness and greediness, that is, perhaps uniting, as they certainly did, these two seemingly opposite qualities. Their chief men were specially lavish through their desire of good report. They were, moreover, a race skillful in flattery, given to the study of eloquence, so that the very boys were orators, a race altogether unbridled unless held firmly down by the yoke of justice. They were enduring of toil, hunger, and cold whenever fortune laid it on them, given to hunting and hawking, delighting in the pleasure of horses, and of all the weapons and garb of war."
This helps to clarify why Bethesda gave the Nords a racial bonus to speechcraft, which otherwise seems a bit odd for a group of consummate, battleaxe-wielding barbarians. It is a reference to the famed oratory skills of the Normans, as described by Malaterra.
Nelthro wrote: When I asked where redguards come from I was not referring to location.
Nedes turned into nords,
what turned into redguards?
In my experience all humans came from the same creature, in real life. Does the same apply here?
Yes and no. It's a little complicatied. The elves and humans both have the same ancestors and that's why they can interbreed (eg, Bretons). Those people were called the Ehlnofey and there is a myth saying how they became so different. Some of the Ehlnofey stayed in tamriel and remained mostly the same (elves) while some left tamriel to live in the surrounding, harsher continents. They were changed by their difficult lifestyle and became the physically stronger but less civilised humans.
Oh and by the way, it was the Atmorans that became Nords. The Yokudans became Redguards. Atmora and Yokuda were two continents outside of Tamriel.
I understand your first question and It puzzled me at first too. I didn't know why the Redguards and Nords were so physically similar when they both came from entirely different places. But no, they had common ancestors.
The best way of thinking of humans is as mutant elves. They were mutated by harsh conditions that changed them in to a rougher and more rugged version of their ancestors. The Redguards were shaped by extreme heat and the Nords by extreme cold.
The original races of humans are the atmorans of atmora, the redguards of yokuda, the nedes of tamriel, and the akaviri of akavir. When the aldmer migrated to tamriel, they bred with the nedes and made bretons. When the atmorans landed in tamriel, they bred with the nedes and created the foundation for nords and imperials. Redguards aren't part of the family tree at all, same goes for the akaviri.
188.8.131.52 wrote: The original races of humans are the atmorans of atmora, the redguards of yokuda, the nedes of tamriel, and the akaviri of akavir. When the aldmer migrated to tamriel, they bred with the nedes and made bretons. When the atmorans landed in tamriel, they bred with the nedes and created the foundation for nords and imperials. Redguards aren't part of the family tree at all, same goes for the akaviri.
184.108.40.206 wrote: Argonians, Khajiit, Lilmothiit, Sload, Tang Mo, Imga, Giant, Ka'Po'Tun, Kamal, Tsaesci, theres more than just argonians.
Dont forget that the Tsaesci could have been humanoid with dark asiatic skin. Mayby they had snake like qaulities like yellow snake eyes or unique shaped thin tounged. Dang they really need to add in imperial noble families with Tsaesci surnames and traits into a game.
1: Originally, there were three races of Humans. The Atmorans were the humans from the continent of Atmora, the Yokudans were the Humans from the land of Yokuda and the Nedes (who I think were descended from early Atmoran explorers) were the first humans to settle in Tamriel. Culturally, I think that the Nedes were Celtic, the Atmorans were Vikings and the Yokudans were Africans/Arabs. The three races of Humans probably did not come into contact with each other (and would have fought if they did).
2; In the early Merethic Era, the Nedes were the only Humans in Tamriel, and most likely lived in tribal kingdoms in what is now Cyrodiil and the southern parts of Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock. The Atmorans were probably divided into multiple kingdoms across Atmora and the Yokudans lived in several kingdoms on Yokuda.
3: When everyone began settling in Tamriel in the mid to late Merethic Era, the Atmorans were the second race of Humans to settle there (after the Nedes). From their foothold in Skyrim, they expanded out into the rest of the continent and split into three groups. One group stayed in Skyrim and built up their empire, another group traveled to High Rock and the final group found their way to Cyrodill. Over time, these groups of Atmorans became the Nords, Bretons and Imperials, respectively.
4. When Yokuda sunk into the sea in the First Era, the Yokudans fled to Hammerfell and became the Redguards.
5. I have an idea of what happened to the Nedes. The ones in Cyrodiil were killed by the Ayleids and Atmoran explorers/early Imperials, the ones in High Rock were chased into the Reach by the Atmoran colonists/early Bretons and became the Reachmen, the ones in Skyrim fled from the Atmoran settlers into the Reach to join the High Rock Nedes and the ones in Hammerfell were killed by the Yokudans. Several Nedic tribes fleeing from the Atmorans/Yokudans may have traveled to Black Marsh and became the now-dead Human population.
In conclusion, the Imperials, Bretons and Nords are descended from the Atmorans and the Redguards are descended from the Yokudans. This means, in my opinion, that most Humans in Tamriel are of Atmoran or Yokudan descent and the only remaining Nedes are the Reachmen.
First: What is the difference between Atmorans and Nedes?
Second: Did their interbreeding create the others?
Third: Why did the Nords and Imperials differ in evolution?
Fourth: Where do redguards come from?
(Please tell me which of these 4 questions you are answering)
As the many theories already proposed indicate, there isn't any concensus about the origins of the mannish races. Which is fun for us fans because we get to theorize and piece together the available evidence! (1) Nedes are the first man inhabitants of Tamriel, whereas Atmorans are from the continent of Atmora some of whom migrated to Tamriel. (2) Yup. (3) The Imperials have more Nedic blood, whereas the Nords are mostly Atmoran. (4) Redguards are descendants of the Yokudans from the continent of Yokuda.
In my view:
Atmorans + ??? => Nedes
Yokudans + Nedes => Redguards
Atmorans + Nedes => Nords
Aldmer + Nedes - Altmer => Bretons
Aldmer + Nedes + Nords => Reachmen
Nedes => Men of Black Marsh (Kothringi, Orma, Yespest, and Horwalli tribes)
Unlike the mer, who started out united as the Old Ehlnofey and only periodically had break-away groups leave and became distinct (yet consolidated) races over time, men as descendants of the "wandering Ehlnofey" quickly divided and scattered all over the world, becoming many races on many continents, but eventually started coming back together and hybridizing on Tamriel, first in the form of the Nedes, and then even more later in the form of the Imperial race, so it's difficult to draw clear divisions between the mannish races unlike their merish counterparts.
In my opinion, these are the most distinct groups of each mannish race that we know still exist:
>The Nordic race, descendants of the Atmorans
>The Redguard race, descendants of the Yokudans
>The Cyro-Nedic subrace of Imperials, descendants of the southern and eastern Nedes
>The Breton race and Reachmannish race, descendants of the northern and western Nedes
The Bretons are descendants of the Aldmer (like most elves are) in addition to the Nedes, but unlike the Altmer the Bretons' Aldmeri blood became more diluted over time, such that nowadays their ancestry is much more mannish than elvish. The Altmer are the race most similar to the Bretons' Aldmeri ancestors, so the Bretons and Altmer are somewhat related. The difference between the Bretons and the Reachmen is that the Reachmen are even less elvish.
There are quite possibly more divergent races of men too; for example, we don't know much about the origins of the Ket Keptu of Hammerfell, which could be their own extant branch, although it's also possible that they are related to the northern and western Nedes like Bretons and Reachmen. The now seemingly extinct men of Black Marsh were southern and eastern Nedic tribes, and some might still be alive; who knows?
I hope this is a sufficiently comprehensive explanation!