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  • Where did Sithis, The Divine's and Daedra come from.Before they created Mundus?

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    • Can we please stop? I know your intention. If MH is to become the next Loremaster of TES, she can do whatever she wants with the series, ok? She can go be a female MK. I really think that self control is needed.

      Really, can we not go there?

      If you are really curious and not trolling:

      The lore states that there were two forces, Anu and Padomay (non sentient) Anu was stasis and Padomay change. All the gods came from the interplay of these forces. As to where the forces came from, they always existed, outside of the Aurbis, which is the multiverse.

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    • Sithis is Padomay's soul, which basically means he's one subradient lower than Padomay.

      The Divines (Aedra) are the anuic spirits which existed in the Gray Maybe, also called the Aurbis. They're commonly seen to be the ones which created Mundus and Nirn, although there's a bit of an argument whether Lorkhan should be seen as an Aedra as well.

      The Daedra are the padomaic spirits which existed in the Gray Maybe/Aurbis. Instead of helping Lorkhan and the other Aedra with creating Nirn and Mundus, they decided to create realms by themselves, known as the Planes of Oblivion. 

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    • ^^^^ This guy is the resident lore expert, ask him

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    • So basicy they just poped out of the void right. And Sithis is the boss or something like that 

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    • VampireDiva86 wrote:
      So basicy they just poped out of the void right. And Sithis is the boss or something like that 

      Sorta-ish. Padomay birthed his soul, Sithis, and Sithis began Lorkhan. Like Pelinal said, they're subgratients of each other. 

      Also, just wanted to touch on this. I have a hard time with the Anu=Aedra and Padomay=Daedra thing. There are many reasons why I feel like this is wrong, but Jyggylag is the easiest to point out. He's daedra and excessively anuic. Also, if the Daedra were Padomaic, don't you think that they'd have liked the idea of Mundus that destroyed the universe as they knew it?

      Also, if Lorkhan is an Aedroth, then he's absolutely the most Padomaic Aedroth. (although I don't subscribe to the whole idea of Lorkhan being Aedra, just used this to illustrate a point). 

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    • Well, if you see Aedra = Contributors to Mundus and Daedra = non contributors, it makes perfect sense. If you do it by how they were created, that makes less sense

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    • Sothas pretty much right it makes no since i dummed it down a little which is they all came from the void i think. Now i'm more confused 

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    • VampireDiva86 wrote:
      Sothas pretty much right it makes no since i dummed it down a little which is they all came from the void i think. Now i'm more confused 

      Well they came from Anu, just as Padomay did. Where/when the creation of the et'Ada happened isn't well understood but as Sithis created Lorkhan to gut punch them all then I'm going to assume they were a thing before he came to town. Everything is a subgradient of the Dream.

      Datadragon Odahviing wrote:
      Well, if you see Aedra = Contributors to Mundus and Daedra = non contributors, it makes perfect sense. If you do it by how they were created, that makes less sense

      Right, but it the strictest sence of the word Lorkhan doesn't fit because he's more the ancestor/creator of Man, not mer. The Aedra/Eight aligned et'Ada contributed becoming earth bones, lesser spirits (animals, trees, white souled creatures), and Ehlnofey. Lorkhan didn't do any of that. He was the man with the plan and didn't quite make it that far. He was "killed." Sure, he made it far enough to lose enough immortality to be ripped to shreds, but he still isn't dead. Not really.

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    • Ok only part of that made since so is Anu a place or a god type perosn that was with Padomay until Sithis came a long.

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    • and pretty much kicked ass right. am i closeat all.

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    • VampireDiva86 wrote:
      Ok only part of that made since so is Anu a place or a god type perosn that was with Padomay until Sithis came a long.

      I'm going to try to keep this simple, but no promises. I tend to rant a bit too much.

      Well Anu is the Amaranth, the Dreamer of the Dream that is Aurbis. Basically, the universe takes place inside his head, but that's not to say it isn't significant or the people or creatures aren't real. They very much are (unless you Zero-Sum, which, in short, is discovering you're not real cuz you're part of a dream). So Anu dreamt up this dream but his mind fractured and his anti-psychie, Padomay, was created. Anu was the ordered structure of his mind and of the universe, the Grey Maybe, they perfect orderedness of everything. Padomay was the chaos, the void. They battled in a way that you battle yourself on something. All very non-physical and more exerting mental dominance, at least the way I see it. So Padomay was making chaos and Anu didn't like this all that much and gave birth to his soul, Anui-El. Padomay's soul is Sithis. They're the same, but not. They're subgradients. Lesser pieces of the whole but still very much a part of it. Then from Anui-El, the first time god, Aka, was created to restore order. Time is orderly afterall. The inbetween parts here are fuzzy but it ends with Sithis creating Lorkhan to destroy the universe because it wasn't what Sithis wanted, too orderly. After that, creation of Mundus and everything else we know.

      Did that help or make it worse? Questions are always good though. Helps move along idea.

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    • A lot better but i thought Sithis was the one who told the Divines and Dedra to create Mundus only the Daedra didn't help at all

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    • Sothas wrote:
      VampireDiva86 wrote:
      So basicy they just poped out of the void right. And Sithis is the boss or something like that 
      Sorta-ish. Padomay birthed his soul, Sithis, and Sithis began Lorkhan. Like Pelinal said, they're subgratients of each other. 

      Also, just wanted to touch on this. I have a hard time with the Anu=Aedra and Padomay=Daedra thing. There are many reasons why I feel like this is wrong, but Jyggylag is the easiest to point out. He's daedra and excessively anuic. Also, if the Daedra were Padomaic, don't you think that they'd have liked the idea of Mundus that destroyed the universe as they knew it?

      Also, if Lorkhan is an Aedroth, then he's absolutely the most Padomaic Aedroth. (although I don't subscribe to the whole idea of Lorkhan being Aedra, just used this to illustrate a point). 

      Well, Daedra don't have to necessarily be padomaic, nor do Aedra have to necessarily be anuic. As you said, Jyggalag is extremely anuic. So is (probably) Peryite, and Meridia maybe as well (although Meridia was a Magna Ge at first). Lorkhan, if he is considered a Aedra, is extremely padomaic, as you said. 

      Technically seen, Aedra just means 'our ancestors', which means that the spirits dubbed 'Aedra' were the ones to help Lorkhan and Magnus create Mundus and Nirn. Daedra means 'not our ancestors', meaning that these spirits did not help them in any way. 

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    • What about Sithis is he nuteral or one or the other. I thight i read somewhere that Sithis asked them to create Mundus 

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    • Sithis doesn't care at all about what's happening inside the Aurbis. 

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    • Then what's the point of the dark bbrotherhood 

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    • ...They're assassins for hire. Money is the point. 

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    • I see that but they still follow Sithis it seems like he's becomeing more involved as the games progress.

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    • It's the night mother that's involved, not Sithis. Of course we don't know who the Night Mother is. Is she the consort to Sithis, is she Mephala, or is she Vivec?

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    • On one of the Dark Brotherhood mission in Skyrim Lucian says I will kill this jester if you ask it of me but theres a disurbnce in the voice The Dred Father dose not wish this. or someting close to that

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    • It's hard for me to take that literally. That's me saying I should kill the dude down the road cuz god told me to.

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    • LOL but in  way it seems to be getting somwhat invloved by used the spectrail assain 

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    • Some of the deeper TES lore is confusing...

      ive stopped trying to understand some more in depth things like CHIM and stuff not mentioned that much in game...

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    • Maybe I should give that a try that 

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    • VampireDiva86 wrote: LOL but in  way it seems to be getting somwhat invloved by used the spectrail assain 

      Who said Sithis brought him back? It was probably the Night Mother. Keep in mind though, we're not even sure Sithis is THE Sithis. Obviously, they think he is, but we don't know if the entity "in charge" of the DB is the one we all know. The creation of the DB is surrounded in myth and confusion.

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    • Personally, I believe that the Night Mother is either Mephala or Vivec's female side. 

      Sithis himself very likely doesn't care at all about what happens on Nirn. 

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    • I thought they were dark elves. Mortal they achived godhood by breaking their vow to Azura and some king 

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    • Vivec is so much more than that. He achieved CHIM. Even after the Heart was destroyed Vivec was still extremely powerful. He's still one of the most powerful beings in all the Aurbis.

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    • i'm going to dumb it down a little he was a mortal god right

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    • What the point in following the Divies they don't really do anything. I've read that the helped create Nirn but they don't really do anything thing else. The Daedra on the other hand are very involved with the mortal world. it makes no since. 

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    • Because the act of participating in the creation of Nirn greatly limited their ability to project their influence: they lost part of themselves making the world, whereas the Daedric Princes did not. Because they participated in creation, they're also bound by the beliefs of mortals, which as per Aka/Auriel/Alduin/Akatosh/etc., can result in fracturing and the divine equivalent of insane schizophrenia. 

      For the Aedra, belief is a very powerful thing. Akatosh literally only came into existence because of the Marukhati Selectives, a mortal endeavour which created the man-friendly Time Dragon/Patron God of the Empire. Compare this human-friendly Time Dragon to Auriel, the Elven counterpart that led campaigns against man. You have two shards of the same Time God actively conspiring against each other, because of what mortals believe.

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    • As for Daedric Princes, they are unaffected by the beliefs of mortals. Many of them could care less what mortals think of them, and many regard mortals as little more than a means of entertainment and spiting their rival Princes in the constant games of metaphorical chess that go on between them. Of course, some Princes take more kindly to their devoted followers, and every Daedric Prince has mortal champions that they favour from time to time for varying reasons. Point being, though, that they do not have a vested interest in making life any better for the people of Tamriel. They're essentially a chaotically neutral force that can cause great acts of good or great acts of evil depending on circumstance, their mood, and cultural context.

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    • It's been centuries since then shouldn't they have gotten there power back by now. I've seen devoted followers in the game but it dosen't say where those followers go when they die. Do the divines have a place like the Daedra? If not what's the point in following them.

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    • The Aedra can't become whole again because they are bound to Nirn, and because they are bound by the beliefs of mortals (mythopoeic forces). There are many, many different aspects of the Time Dragon Aka, many of which despise and conspire against each other, for the sole reason that there are many mortal cultures that believe in those different aspects. While perhaps not to the same extent as the Time God, each Aedra has different aspects that correlate to different cultures' beliefs. So it isn't appropriate to think of the Divines as singular entities like the Daedric Princes: due to mortal beliefs and the effect they have on non-Daedric deities, they have fractured into many, many, sometimes drastically different gods.

      As for the afterlife, with the exception of Sovngarde (which was made by, and is presided over by Lorkhan), souls that have not been consigned to Oblivion for various reasons go instead to the Dreamsleeve, whereupon they experience whichever afterlife they believed in while they were mortal before being recycled. The nature of creation is cylic: each Kalpa begins and each Kalpa ends, with Alduin (yet another aspect of the Time Dragon) eating the world so that the new one may come into being. Souls are recycled and are reused after death.

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    • So let say if The writers of TES Chose to make a fight between The Adra of Nirn and The Olympian Gods of Earth the Adra would basicly get there ass's kicked because they really have no power.

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    • You guys make it complicated. I recommend The Annotated Anuad and Aedra and Daedra books - you will understand everything after reading them. When you explain TES lore, go with basics first, then go into things a'la Grey Maybe and CHIM.

      Lorkhan was the one to trick the divines into creating Mundus. Later, when it was already too late, the Aedra, divines who participated, noticed that it costed them some of their power and they fled. The ones who didn't help are the Daedra. This also explains the fact Daedra have more influence on Nirn than Aedra. Also, the Aedra bring stasis and Daedra bring chaos.

      The divines who didn't make it and got trapped in Mundus became the Earth Bones - they turned into the laws of nature (the Bosmer believe the god Y'ffre became laws of nature and was one of the first ones to die), into elements, into the basics of the world...

      Sithis is above Aedra and Daedra, in a way. You will see in the books, he simply comes from Padomay and "gave birth" to Lorkhan. He is worshipped as the god of the Void and death, somehow.

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    • Sothas wrote:
      VampireDiva86 wrote:
      Sothas pretty much right it makes no since i dummed it down a little which is they all came from the void i think. Now i'm more confused 
      Well they came from Anu, just as Padomay did. Where/when the creation of the et'Ada happened isn't well understood but as Sithis created Lorkhan to gut punch them all then I'm going to assume they were a thing before he came to town. Everything is a subgradient of the Dream.


      Datadragon Odahviing wrote:
      Well, if you see Aedra = Contributors to Mundus and Daedra = non contributors, it makes perfect sense. If you do it by how they were created, that makes less sense
      Right, but it the strictest sence of the word Lorkhan doesn't fit because he's more the ancestor/creator of Man, not mer. The Aedra/Eight aligned et'Ada contributed becoming earth bones, lesser spirits (animals, trees, white souled creatures), and Ehlnofey. Lorkhan didn't do any of that. He was the man with the plan and didn't quite make it that far. He was "killed." Sure, he made it far enough to lose enough immortality to be ripped to shreds, but he still isn't dead. Not really.

      actually men see him as that.  since the fact men and mer can easily interbreed  they're related somewhere down the line (the Ehlnofey mate) the Wanderers who were outside old Ehlnofex became the mortal races of men. those stayed in became Mer. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ehlnofey

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    • It's pointless to get into arguments over "power levels" when considering Gods of completely different religions, let alone completely different universes. It's already an exercise in futility to try and compare, say, the Norse Gods to the Hindu Gods; trying to compare the Aedra to any real world religion is even more pointless considering Nirn is not Earth, and the way the universe works is entirely different.

      Back on topic however, the Aedra do have "power": when considering Gods in The Elder Scrolls, however, power is very contextual and has limitations. It's not as simple as "he is stronger than him, but weaker than him". Just like the Daedric Princes the Aedric aspects have their spheres; however, while spheres to the Princes are more just their particular topics of interest and where they have the most influence, the Aedric aspects have much more control over and a closer relation to those concepts that form their spheres. For example, Aka, and by extension his aspects, are quite literally Time itself: thus, when temporal paradoxes occur, it "breaks the Dragon". 

      As for whether the Aedric aspects apply their influence on Nirn? They do. Frequently. Akatosh defeated the corporeal manifestation of Mehrunes Dagon and banished him back to Oblivion, Kyne taught mortals the use of the Thu'um, Pelinal Whitestrake and Morihaus Breath-of-Kyne were sent by both deities to aid Saint Alessia and mankind, all Aedric aspects provide their blessings to worshipers who pray at their shrines, they occasionally manifest on Nirn to aid Heroes... the list goes on. They don't make the entire world a paradise because they can't, and the extent to which they can apply their influence has its limitations. Don't forget, though, that the Daedric Princes can't do whatever they want on Nirn either: their ability to apply their power is perhaps just as limited. They can only be summoned on particular summoning days with the right offerings or under the right circumstances, they cannot manifest in full on Nirn (anymore at least, and incidentally because of Akatosh), they cannot directly influence events without mortal champions, etc. 

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    • I'm not trying to start an argument just trying to understand. i've read everything on this site and noting makes since. It's like is was made as it moved forward. So the Adra have power but not enough to use it. without acting through a mortal being of somekind. 

      Wait i thoguht Kenarath gave the gift of the thu'um to mortals. At least that's what the Graybeards said in Skiyrim. why is it differnt on here.

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    • 67.166.205.138 wrote:
      Sothas wrote:
      VampireDiva86 wrote:
      Sothas pretty much right it makes no since i dummed it down a little which is they all came from the void i think. Now i'm more confused 
      Well they came from Anu, just as Padomay did. Where/when the creation of the et'Ada happened isn't well understood but as Sithis created Lorkhan to gut punch them all then I'm going to assume they were a thing before he came to town. Everything is a subgradient of the Dream.


      Datadragon Odahviing wrote:
      Well, if you see Aedra = Contributors to Mundus and Daedra = non contributors, it makes perfect sense. If you do it by how they were created, that makes less sense
      Right, but it the strictest sence of the word Lorkhan doesn't fit because he's more the ancestor/creator of Man, not mer. The Aedra/Eight aligned et'Ada contributed becoming earth bones, lesser spirits (animals, trees, white souled creatures), and Ehlnofey. Lorkhan didn't do any of that. He was the man with the plan and didn't quite make it that far. He was "killed." Sure, he made it far enough to lose enough immortality to be ripped to shreds, but he still isn't dead. Not really.
      actually men see him as that.  since the fact men and mer can easily interbreed  they're related somewhere down the line (the Ehlnofey mate) the Wanderers who were outside old Ehlnofex became the mortal races of men. those stayed in became Mer. http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ehlnofey

      I fail to see how any of this has to do with what I said other than agreeing with me even though you made it sound like you were disagreeing with me.

      Also, like 2 days ago I had a lengthy discussion with someone and I'm starting to lean towards LRKHAN AE DAEDROTH and TAMRIEL AE DAEDROTH of the sense that Tamriel is OF Daedra and Daedra are OF Tamriel. Lorkhan needs Daedra in order for his plan to work. Without Tamriel Daedra wouldn't be a thing. Without Daedra Tamriel wouldn't be as it is. Daedra are the emotion of the Dream. Without them there is no creativity and CHIM and Nu-Amaranth can never be acheived. There's a lot more to it but that's the baseline. 

      This also folls into Mankar actually being right to a point and MAYBE (seriously maybe, I'm not 100% convinced of this yet) Magnus actually is the Leaper Demon King. It's a fun theory but I'm still personally struggling with it. Magnus is... hard to define, and this would give him definition.

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    • Oops, wasn't signed in. ^^^ That was me.


      I think the key here is that it is important to note that Sithis is like physics and math. Sithis is the Aurbical representation of Padomay who is the chaotic, irrational, emotional, id of Anu. Sithis isn't a being, but instead a force of the Aurbis akin to entropy. Lorkhan is the physical manifestation of Padomay WITHIN the Aurbis.

      Also, another way to think of DAEDRA AE PAHOME is that they are the emotion of the Dream. If Padomay is the id of the univierse then this matches up. 

      I'll stop now. I'm getting into some much deeper stuff than is typical of this wiki.

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    • 73.50.113.119 wrote:
      I'm not trying to start an argument just trying to understand. i've read everything on this site and noting makes since. It's like is was made as it moved forward. So the Adra have power but not enough to use it. without acting through a mortal being of somekind. 

      Wait i thoguht Kenarath gave the gift of the thu'um to mortals. At least that's what the Graybeards said in Skiyrim. why is it differnt on here.

      I'm not either, I'm just saying that you can't compare Gods of different religions in the real world because of contextual differences, and thus trying to compare Gods of real world religions to Gods in a fictional universe is even more pointless to discuss. You'll never come to a conclusion, and they're incomparable either way.

      At any rate, the Aedra have power, but as with all deities in The Elder Scrolls, that power has limitations on how and under what circumstances it can be applied on Nirn. Having power doesn't mean as much if you can only use it every so often, and in certain amounts. But the Daedric Princes also have similar limitations. The main difference between the Aedric Aspects and the Daedric Princes is that the Aedric Aspects are subject to/shaped by the beliefs of mortals (mythopoeic forces) due to their link to Mundus, whereas the Daedra, having contributed nothing to creation, are not affected by mortal beliefs. While there are many aspects of the Aedra according to the mortal cultures that believe in them, there are 17 Daedric Princes. In this way, Kyne is not the same as Kynareth, and yet is part of the same Aedric Oversoul. Kyne is how Nords believe her to be just as Kynareth is how Imperials believe her to be, but due to the nature of mythopoeia, the very fact that mortals believe in her differently results in two different Aspects being created. Kyne (through Paarthurnax) taught mortals the Thu'um. Kynareth did not (and fairly, Kynareth did not exist at the time, as it wasn't until later that the modern Imperial Pantheon of the Divines came to be). 

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    • Sothas wrote:
      Oops, wasn't signed in. ^^^ That was me.


      I think the key here is that it is important to note that Sithis is like physics and math. Sithis is the Aurbical representation of Padomay who is the chaotic, irrational, emotional, id of Anu. Sithis isn't a being, but instead a force of the Aurbis akin to entropy. Lorkhan is the physical manifestation of Padomay WITHIN the Aurbis.

      Also, another way to think of DAEDRA AE PAHOME is that they are the emotion of the Dream. If Padomay is the id of the univierse then this matches up. 

      I'll stop now. I'm getting into some much deeper stuff than is typical of this wiki.

      Personally, I think it's refreshing when people who know more about the deeper lore post here. 

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