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  • Cheatcodechamp
    Cheatcodechamp closed this thread because:
    Inactive Consensus. Issue resolved.
    22:15, July 3, 2015

    Hello everybody.

    The point of this is to get an idea on how we feel about new categories. I bring this up now because an editor has started up some new categories that we did not have before. Before we undo them, I figured we should look at the categories and see how the community feels about this. I do want to remind you that this should remain respectful and civil at all times, so no belittling or needless attacks.

    Ok, the new categories are related to the class of NPC's. For example, Athyn Sarethi is an Agent, so he is added to the "Morrowind:Agents" category. This would create a new way to organize all characters, in all the games. There are good and bad things to be seen in this, but I want to know how you all feel about this? Should we start organizing NPC's by their class, or should we refrain from doing so.

    Oh, since you are all here. I wanted to remind you all that we are looking for the next featured article. good articles are the ones we would look at. Please look at, and improve if need be, the articles and nominate the best to be next months featured article.

    That is all for now, thanks and happy editing.

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    • I find it unneeded, no reason to categorize NPCs based on their class.

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    • I have to agree with Rim. What exactly is the point of adding an NPCs class to categories? Seems like a lot of unecessary categories to me.

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    • Yeah, categories only really need to be divided into Morrowind, Oblivion, Skyrim, etc so people know what it's talking about. Though I do think it could be used, just a lot more broadly, if it becomes too specific or just used at every opportunity, like "Warriors, mages, etc.", it wouldn't really be useful.

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    • AIdmeri wrote:
      I have to agree with Rim. What exactly is the point of adding an NPCs class to categories? Seems like a lot of unecessary categories to me.

      Some wiki's want articles to be as easy to find as possible, and feel more categories is the way to go. The Wikipedia does this by organizing everybody as well as possible.

      The question would be if we wanted to go that path and mark everything as much as possible. The reason we have what we have now is Jimeee said it was to much. He even made sure things where organized by game instead of one large category.

      All that being said, it seems that (so far) that you three seem to agree that it is to much.

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    • Would the example category of Morrowind: Agents be just essentially a description of that class in the game along with a list of all NPCs within the class, as well as a possible section on the page highlighting locations of trainers and other things that relate directly to the class? If so then I could see it being moderately useful but wouldn't we want to beef it up somewhat? Maybe, just throwing it out here, a guide to playing as that class, like we did back in AD&D. I followed the adventures of a character on Youtube who was playing through Skyrim going for zero kills, a pure cleric/healer in a sense, and while it might sound dull, it was actually fairly entertaining to watch this purist avoid violence. If we'd simply be compiling a list of NPCs who share the same class, I'm a noob here so forgive me, but wouldn't it feel like we were just bulking up on pointless pages? The categories idea wouldn't take as long as these Morrowind images though. :P The Construction kit would make it a fast and simple matter since nearly every scrap of data we'd need for the main parts of each category is readily available without having to trek for days on end through the game world.

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    • We think such categories would be guilding the lilly - searches are already easy on this Wiki.

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    • If we had Semantic MediaWiki installed here, we wouldn't have an issue with categories, since SMW doesn't use categories for categorisation, instead relying on properties and such things. But of course, Wikia disbanded it from the system and nobody can request them so... :D

      I think we need more categories. Over on the Mods Wiki, we set up automatic categories based on values entered in the infobox, which allows for categorising mods based on which game they come from, the type of mod that they are (cheat mods, new lands etc), and we also categorise mods by the authors, so that people can quickly find mods by their favourite mod authors.

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    • I would like this idea, if it was and additional thing, and didn't cause useful pages to be removed.

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    • Cheatcodechamp wrote:
      AIdmeri wrote:
      I have to agree with Rim. What exactly is the point of adding an NPCs class to categories? Seems like a lot of unecessary categories to me.
      Some wiki's want articles to be as easy to find as possible, and feel more categories is the way to go. The Wikipedia does this by organizing everybody as well as possible.

      The question would be if we wanted to go that path and mark everything as much as possible. The reason we have what we have now is Jimeee said it was to much. He even made sure things where organized by game instead of one large category.

      All that being said, it seems that (so far) that you three seem to agree that it is to much.

      When is the last time you went on wikipedia and decided, "Let's browse through 20 pages of categories to find what I want instead of using the convenient search bar!"

      Besides, Wikipedia is MUCH larger than our little wiki. I believe having Morrowind:NPC's is enough categories for now. If anything the new categories should be where they are. Who the heck would know that some random NPC they met is an agent?

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    • I think it would make things feel more orderly here. I support.

      We need a lot more categories, some more than Morrowind class categories.

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    • Orc named sue wrote:
      Cheatcodechamp wrote:

      Some wiki's want articles to be as easy to find as possible, and feel more categories is the way to go. The Wikipedia does this by organizing everybody as well as possible.

      The question would be if we wanted to go that path and mark everything as much as possible. The reason we have what we have now is Jimeee said it was to much. He even made sure things where organized by game instead of one large category.

      All that being said, it seems that (so far) that you three seem to agree that it is to much.

      When is the last time you went on wikipedia and decided, "Let's browse through 20 pages of categories to find what I want instead of using the convenient search bar!"

      Besides, Wikipedia is MUCH larger than our little wiki. I believe having Morrowind:NPC's is enough categories for now. If anything the new categories should be where they are. Who the heck would know that some random NPC they met is an agent?


      Like I said, the categories, at least the ones we are referring to, may be unneeded. Class hold no use for an player when talking to these people in any of the games.

      The more I look at this, the more I think that these categories are not necessary. We should talk and see if there are area's we need. I have been bumping into more articles about NPC's that did not make it into the finished games or where used for testing. I would say these need a category, if not an article.

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    • My overall conclusion towards this is that it should be used, but not extensively, only to categorize large portions of the wiki. If it's used too much then it'll become pointless because you can just use the search bar to find what you're looking for anyway.

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    • Orc named sue wrote:
      Cheatcodechamp wrote:
      AIdmeri wrote:
      I have to agree with Rim. What exactly is the point of adding an NPCs class to categories? Seems like a lot of unecessary categories to me.
      Some wiki's want articles to be as easy to find as possible, and feel more categories is the way to go. The Wikipedia does this by organizing everybody as well as possible.

      The question would be if we wanted to go that path and mark everything as much as possible. The reason we have what we have now is Jimeee said it was to much. He even made sure things where organized by game instead of one large category.

      All that being said, it seems that (so far) that you three seem to agree that it is to much.

      When is the last time you went on wikipedia and decided, "Let's browse through 20 pages of categories to find what I want instead of using the convenient search bar!"

      Besides, Wikipedia is MUCH larger than our little wiki. I believe having Morrowind:NPC's is enough categories for now. If anything the new categories should be where they are. Who the heck would know that some random NPC they met is an agent?

      This was precisely what I was thinking. It seems like that type of categorization would be pointless since the gamer wouldn't know the class of the NPC they encountered. I've played 4 different Elder Scrolls games, and the only time I ever knew the class of an NPC was when I looked them up on a related wiki site, or when it was just blatently obvious (i.e. mages).

      Being a regular player of Elder Scrolls, and a regular user of this site, I can definitely vouch for the search bar's capabilities in finding the content that I'm looking for, and I don't see a real need to find content any other way.

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    • I can't  disagree, i think a person should be able to put in new ideas, if 1 person thinks of it as good there are bound to be others that will agree, but in the beginning more will disagree sense the ones who might agree feel they dont care to be told there wrong. but if its a pull down menu option or a check can filter it out no one would have a issue with the search . sense it would not effect there way of searching.

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    • This is not necessary but could be an additional kind of category in case someone was looking for people with a certain class. The new gamers will not even look at the NPC classes but some advanced ones might need that because of REASONS.

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    • Thehornydovahkiin wrote:
      This is not necessary but could be an additional kind of category in case someone was looking for people with a certain class. The new gamers will not even look at the NPC classes but some advanced ones might need that because of REASONS.

      I don't suppose you'd like to state those reasons, instead of being rather vague to the point that you give none.

      I agree it can be a checkbox in a search, I just don't see the purpose it would serve, so perhaps instead of stating that there are reasons, maybe list those reasons to support the argument.

      I consider myself to be an advanced gamer (been playing games since literally the rebirth of games), and I still can see no purpose for this kind of categorization, given that I can just look up an NPC by name. It might be a good idea to list them by location (i.e. the city they're in) in such cases where one cannot remember the name, however.

      Saying that there are reasons to do something in and of itself, is not a supportable argument, and in my opinion it shouldn't be considered enough of a supportable argument to take action towards that end. If there were really reasons to do something, one can simply list them (I might even agree with them, having seen the reasoning myself), in order to prove their point. And while this has nothing to do with right or wrong, we do have the workers in this community to think about, so we have to ask the questions; "Is it worth the time and effort for them to make this change?", "Is it something that the community as a whole can benefit from, or is it a feature that would only mean something to the few, and instead be a waste of effort to put in?", "Does it actually benefit the wiki in any justifiable way?".

      This is my personal stance on this:

      For the first question. It's been stated that new gamers wouldn't really find a use for this function, whether it's true or not, we've already seen most people in this thread state that there'd be no reason to implement the idea, and I have to assume that is indicative of the wiki's users' opinions as a whole (even though there are a few who like the idea). In that, I do not see it as a worthwhile change, and in my opinion it could waste the mods' time by doing it instead of changes that could positively impact the wiki (in that time).

      For the same reason listed above, for the second question, I do not think it would benefit the majority of users here, and once again, given how many in this thread don't have a reason for using such a feature, we have to assume that's how it will be received by the rest of the community, therefore it would not mean anything to most users.

      The last question, when I ask myself this, I can only come to the conclusion that it would not really benefit the wiki as a whole, and even the apparent 'advanced gamers', who advocate that there are indeed good reasons for this change, have yet to list those reasons. In my opinion, I don't think there is enough reason to do it, given how the community feels about it, it would just be one of those time consuming things that nobody feels the need to use. In fact I'd wager that most of us (like me) don't care either way, and that should tell people just how meaningless it is to those users (and by extension, how unused it would be, by those same users).

      I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, I'm being realistic and objective here, this is based off of practicality for the site, as well as what's already been stated.

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    • Most of us wouldn't use this, that's right. I was just stating that there are gamers who do look that stuff up, I do not know much why but sometimes to check the follower class (but personally I only check skills), sometimes for sandbox or other things. Compared to the other things to fix here it is indeed a minor change that is not necessary, because such gamers (I don't know if 'advanced' was a good name tbh) can check the class on character's page anyway. If anyone decided to give it a try, it wouldn't be completely without sense, but yeah, not extremely necessary.

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    • I Agree with you  Thehornydovahkiin  but i started playing games before well before is about the best i can say My first game i wrote and loaded it onto the computer with Ticker tape, a disk was about 2ft by 2ft and the computer took up a 12x12 room, now if we at that time shout down any idea it would of perhaps slowed down what we have today. I have never been good at typing so I tend to be blunt, if the person that suggested this wants to spend the time to do the work themselves, then  send it to the one that can implement what he want, but if he has somthing wrong then send it back and dont fix it for him its his idea and he should be the one to do all the work . its a step in learning and cant harm anything , but it can help a creative person learn.

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    • 107.206.145.81 wrote:
      I Agree with you  Thehornydovahkiin  but i started playing games before well before is about the best i can say My first game i wrote and loaded it onto the computer with Ticker tape, a disk was about 2ft by 2ft and the computer took up a 12x12 room, now if we at that time shout down any idea it would of perhaps slowed down what we have today. I have never been good at typing so I tend to be blunt, if the person that suggested this wants to spend the time to do the work themselves, then  send it to the one that can implement what he want, but if he has somthing wrong then send it back and dont fix it for him its his idea and he should be the one to do all the work . its a step in learning and cant harm anything , but it can help a creative person learn.

      Like teaching someone who requested swimming lessons by tossing them in the deep end.  Either they give up and drown or survive and learn.  I like your thinking.

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    • I believe the "Agent" category, personally, to be uneeded, along with any other "sort by class" categories. In my opinion, this could confuse things even further, potentially. Say we had a warrior in the fighters's guild who is also a Battlemage, by class. This would lead to much confusion, as he would also be sorted in with people at the Mage's Guild, and any NPC Mercenary who has a Battlemage Class. A thief who is technically a rogue class would be getting lumped in with all the wrong people. The point I'm trying to make here is that the guilds are already detailed enough. We have fighters that are dual weilders, sword and shield, just a sword, two handed sword, archers, battlemages. We have people in the thieves guild that are rogues, archers, illusionists, and actual thieves, mages have battlemages, illusionists, Wizards, sorcerers, summoners, necromancers. while the overlay seems minimal, take into account that notonly would people from the guilds be getting singled out from their brethren, they would also be bunched up with people whom are only barely linked with each other. Like say, bandits and forsworn belong in the hostile npc category. With respect, No. Just no.

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    • Something like "Morrowind:Class:Agent" would make more sense, and be easier for an reader to understand (unambiguous).
      Now for my thoughts on the matter:

      1. I can understand that some people out there would use this, I personally would have no use for it.
      2. While making information as easy to locate as possible is something to strive for, I fail to see how this would positively contribute to accessibility of information.
      3. There are over 2000 characters in Morrowind based on the "Morrowind: Characters" category. Many (likely the majority) of these characters would have quickly thrown together by the developers at Bethesda, especially in cases where the class is not important.

      With these three points in mind, I feel that time would be better spent on improving other aspects of the wiki.

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