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  • do you have anything to say about the fact that if you side with the empire, and thus kill ulfric, in sovngarde you find ulfric and he says that looking back on it he feels that his progression was wrong and that he should have reconsidered?

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    • I'm not a stormcloak but I used to be one (before I took a good point to the knee) but maybe ulfric wasn't wrong 

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    • He said he regretted it because it made alduin super powerful, other than that he didnt say anything about regretting his rebellion.

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    • I think he was reflecting on the futility of war, as it served to strengthen a far worse threat to the world.

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    • ^ This.

      He realizes that the war only killed countless lives that were used to strenghten Alduin.

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    • Ulfrik was and Thalmor "asset", nuff said.

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    • MrNewVegasfallout wrote:
      do you have anything to say about the fact that if you side with the empire, and thus kill ulfric, in sovngarde you find ulfric and he says that looking back on it he feels that his progression was wrong and that he should have reconsidered?


      I am a Stormcloak no longer, but I think he was refering to him fighting his former friends and the Empire, which needed protection, not destruction. He sees in Sovengarde all of his friends from the older days, children of Skyrim, both Stormcloaks and Imperials alike and he finally realises that the Civil War was a fool war, that only benefited their true enemy, the Elves.

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    • Purrington wrote:
      I think he was reflecting on the futility of war, as it served to strengthen a far worse threat to the world. But I could be wrong.

      a anti war pascifist nord? by the gods- have you been in the skooma? thats like a khajiit that doesnt try to cut your purse every time you pass

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    • MrNewVegasfallout wrote:
      Purrington wrote:
      I think he was reflecting on the futility of war, as it served to strengthen a far worse threat to the world. But I could be wrong.
      a anti war pascifist nord? by the gods- have you been in the skooma? thats like a khajiit that doesnt try to cut your purse every time you pass

      Racist towards Khajiits are we? You imperial. But please do not "bump" threads that have been dead for 3 months.

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    • Also please get back on topic. Thank you.

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    • Well, I think my point is just fine. Anyone else?

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    • history johny  lets go back in  the first 2 era human and the elves were not enemies but freinds or somthing. the elvs thought we dont need from the humans so war of the night tears came. the humans race was wiped out almost the ysgramor himself came from sovengaurd with his army the eventruly destroyes the elvs. but there was survivers the snow elf came to the dwemor for help they agreed but betrayed hapen the dwemor gave the snow elfs poisnos food which also makes the blind and this what they look like know the falmer. sudenly the falmer destoryed the dwemor no surviver no evendice poeple say that they use keening and harkon heart to disapear. herer is the stupid part years later the thalmor sneak in the crodil castle which is the only bigest tower, threaten the emperor the 2 or the 3 i dont know. made him sign the golden contract which out law talos a hero and let the elvs live. some times you see a prisoner a nord with a thalmor if you see that kill the tar out of the thlmor. ufric was prisoner beacause he thought the treaty gold contract was a bad idea and killed toryy the boy for some love story.And later he was set free or escaped at the ambasy.Then he starded a war.I think galmor stone fist was right we didnt need the imperles skyrim fought tons of batles and its still in the hands of the nords

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    • history  johny when the make a 7 skyrim who will win imperils or the stormcloaks

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    • Please, fix your grammar, if you want someone to take you seriously.

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    • Also, please check your facts. I think I spotted several big mistakes.

      1) The Nords came and took some Elvish land, then the war started. Both sides committed crimes, not just the snow elves. The reasoning for the initial conflict was that their land was trespassed on. Also, Ysgramor came from Atmora, not Sovngarde. Sovngarde is the Nord afterlife.

      2) The Falmer did not kill the dwarves. That's a whole different lore discussion. Long story short, it was the dwarves' fault for their disappearance.

      3) I don't know what you mean about this sneaking into the tower part. Can't really make out your grammar, but what I can see there was no stealth mission. The war started when the Thalmor agent revealed the heads of the blade agents that were in Dominion lands.

      4) The White-Gold Concordat was signed to prevent conflict, although that's also another story. "Let the elvs live" - I have no clue what you're talking about here.

      5) "killed toryy the boy for some love story" - What? What love story? Boy? Ugh... Torygg was a man. You even see so in Sovngarde. This makes no sense.

      6) "I think galmor stone fist was right we didnt need the imperles skyrim fought tons of batles and its still in the hands of the nords" - Skyrim has been in The Empire since almost the beginning. There were no other battles. If you mean the colonial battles, then that does not relate to this thread. Not only did Ulfric cut the military force of Skyrim in half, but then a battle ensued which caused the loss of more life.

      Overall, I can't take you seriously. Your grammar greatly interferes with your meaning and your facts are way off.

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    • Ulfric never does such a thing. This is a VERY common misconception about what he actually states in Sovngarde.

      Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth―fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater―wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor.

      I don't know where this whole idea Ulfric admitted his cause was wrong came from, but from the quote it can obviously be inferred he was discussing PROVOKING the Civil War when he did as the fighting only distracted Skyrim from battling the Dragons, and the lost souls only served to strengthen Alduin when he invaded Sovngarde. Little or nothing to do with Politics, mostly just connections to the Main Quest actually.

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Ulfric never does such a thing. This is a VERY common misconception about what he actually states in Sovngarde.

      Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth―fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater―wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor.

      I don't know where this whole idea Ulfric admitted his cause was wrong came from, but from the quote it can obviously be inferred he was discussing PROVOKING the Civil War when he did as the fighting only distracted Skyrim from battling the Dragons, and the lost souls only served to strengthen Alduin when he invaded Sovngarde. Little or nothing to do with Politics, mostly just connections to the Main Quest actually.

      Skyrim was never betrayed, especially by the Empire, even if it was, it'd be by Ulfric, The Empire is fighting to get Talos supported, not destroyed. Ulfric is the reason Alduin awoke, see The Book of the Dragonborn, at the bottom, that prophecy was taken from Alduin's wall, Which was taken from the Elder Scrolls. "When the Snow Tower lies sundered, Kingless, Bleeding, The World-Eater shall awaken and the wheel shall turn upon the Last Dragonborn" and on the wall it states "When the children of Skyrim battle among themselves, The prophecy of the world eater shall be fulfilled." Or something like that. And this basically proves that The Thalmor are using Ulfric Stormcloak as already stated in Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak...

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    • What Ulfric says in Sovgarde seems to be that he regrets his rebellion because it strengthened Alduin, not that he no longer believes his motivations for rebelling were justified.

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    • The Aspect Of Akatosh wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Ulfric never does such a thing. This is a VERY common misconception about what he actually states in Sovngarde.

      Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth―fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater―wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor.

      I don't know where this whole idea Ulfric admitted his cause was wrong came from, but from the quote it can obviously be inferred he was discussing PROVOKING the Civil War when he did as the fighting only distracted Skyrim from battling the Dragons, and the lost souls only served to strengthen Alduin when he invaded Sovngarde. Little or nothing to do with Politics, mostly just connections to the Main Quest actually.

      Skyrim was never betrayed, especially by the Empire, even if it was, it'd be by Ulfric, The Empire is fighting to get Talos supported, not destroyed. Ulfric is the reason Alduin awoke, see The Book of the Dragonborn, at the bottom, that prophecy was taken from Alduin's wall, Which was taken from the Elder Scrolls. "When the Snow Tower lies sundered, Kingless, Bleeding, The World-Eater shall awaken and the wheel shall turn upon the Last Dragonborn" and on the wall it states "When the children of Skyrim battle among themselves, The prophecy of the world eater shall be fulfilled." Or something like that. And this basically proves that The Thalmor are using Ulfric Stormcloak as already stated in Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak...

      Pro-Imperial ideas aside, Ulfric's rebellion didn't start the Dragon Crisis, the prophecy simply knew it would happen around the time the Skyrim Civil War occurred. But the idea that somehow his rebellion that had no connection to Alduin's return somehow caused it is preposterous.

      If you support the Empire, that's cool, but I do want to clear up the misconceptions regarding Ulfric (at least the more actual and objective parts of it).

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:

      Pro-Imperial ideas aside, Ulfric's rebellion didn't start the Dragon Crisis, the prophecy simply knew it would happen around the time the Skyrim Civil War occurred. But the idea that somehow his rebellion that had no connection to Alduin's return somehow caused it is preposterous.

      If you support the Empire, that's cool, but I do want to clear up the misconceptions regarding Ulfric (at least the more actual and objective parts of it).

      Ulfric, is to blame, you can keep prophecies from coming true, especially in TES universe, as an example see the Tyranny of the Sun, if you side with the Dawnguard and never even shoot a bloodcursed arrow into the sun, this prophecy never comes true. Ulfric is solely to blame for Alduin's return.

      You can see it as a recipe, in order for the dish to be cooked correctly, you need to follow all the steps. 

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:

      The Aspect Of Akatosh wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Ulfric never does such a thing. This is a VERY common misconception about what he actually states in Sovngarde.

      Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth―fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater―wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor.

      I don't know where this whole idea Ulfric admitted his cause was wrong came from, but from the quote it can obviously be inferred he was discussing PROVOKING the Civil War when he did as the fighting only distracted Skyrim from battling the Dragons, and the lost souls only served to strengthen Alduin when he invaded Sovngarde. Little or nothing to do with Politics, mostly just connections to the Main Quest actually.

      Skyrim was never betrayed, especially by the Empire, even if it was, it'd be by Ulfric, The Empire is fighting to get Talos supported, not destroyed. Ulfric is the reason Alduin awoke, see The Book of the Dragonborn, at the bottom, that prophecy was taken from Alduin's wall, Which was taken from the Elder Scrolls. "When the Snow Tower lies sundered, Kingless, Bleeding, The World-Eater shall awaken and the wheel shall turn upon the Last Dragonborn" and on the wall it states "When the children of Skyrim battle among themselves, The prophecy of the world eater shall be fulfilled." Or something like that. And this basically proves that The Thalmor are using Ulfric Stormcloak as already stated in Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak...
      Pro-Imperial ideas aside, Ulfric's rebellion didn't start the Dragon Crisis, the prophecy simply knew it would happen around the time the Skyrim Civil War occurred. But the idea that somehow his rebellion that had no connection to Alduin's return somehow caused it is preposterous.

      If you support the Empire, that's cool, but I do want to clear up the misconceptions regarding Ulfric (at least the more actual and objective parts of it).

      There are no misconceptions, By killing High King Torygg, he brought back Alduin. 

      Blademaster Jauffre is right on this. 

      The Stormcloaks were always fighting the wrong enemy, Just because of their leader, who if you read the Link I shared, you would know, He is a Thalmor asset. The Thalmor wish to bring down the towers, and cause Landfall or a variation of it.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote:

      Pro-Imperial ideas aside, Ulfric's rebellion didn't start the Dragon Crisis, the prophecy simply knew it would happen around the time the Skyrim Civil War occurred. But the idea that somehow his rebellion that had no connection to Alduin's return somehow caused it is preposterous.

      If you support the Empire, that's cool, but I do want to clear up the misconceptions regarding Ulfric (at least the more actual and objective parts of it).

      Ulfric, is to blame, you can keep prophecies from coming true, especially in TES universe, as an example see the Tyranny of the Sun, if you side with the Dawnguard and never even shoot a bloodcursed arrow into the sun, this prophecy never comes true. Ulfric is solely to blame for Alduin's return.

      You can see it as a recipe, in order for the dish to be cooked correctly, you need to follow all the steps. 

      Okay, neither of you understand how prophecies work, but whatever. Your analogy is completely apples and oranges. Ulfric's rebellion has no correlation to Alduin's return! How does the time he got sent from the ELDER SCROLL have a connection to someone fighting in a rebellion?

      Besides, if you really believe that. Who "started" the war is sincerely disputed amongst Skyrim players? Did The "Sons of Skyrim" fight in The Markarth Incident? In that case, the Empire was the one who started the war.

      If this crackpot theory was true, Ulfric is not the sole one to be blamed. But I'm not debating this with you, because you'll never admit you're wrong no matter how much evidence I use, I've seen it before on this website and I'm wasting my time again

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    • The Aspect Of Akatosh wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote:

      The Aspect Of Akatosh wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote:
      Ulfric never does such a thing. This is a VERY common misconception about what he actually states in Sovngarde.

      Skyrim was betrayed, the blood of her sons spilled in doomed struggle against fate. And so in death, too late, I learn the truth―fed by war, so waxed the power of Alduin, World-Eater―wisdom now useless. By gods' jest in this grim mist together snared, Stormcloak and Imperial, we wander hopeless, waiting for succor.

      I don't know where this whole idea Ulfric admitted his cause was wrong came from, but from the quote it can obviously be inferred he was discussing PROVOKING the Civil War when he did as the fighting only distracted Skyrim from battling the Dragons, and the lost souls only served to strengthen Alduin when he invaded Sovngarde. Little or nothing to do with Politics, mostly just connections to the Main Quest actually.

      Skyrim was never betrayed, especially by the Empire, even if it was, it'd be by Ulfric, The Empire is fighting to get Talos supported, not destroyed. Ulfric is the reason Alduin awoke, see The Book of the Dragonborn, at the bottom, that prophecy was taken from Alduin's wall, Which was taken from the Elder Scrolls. "When the Snow Tower lies sundered, Kingless, Bleeding, The World-Eater shall awaken and the wheel shall turn upon the Last Dragonborn" and on the wall it states "When the children of Skyrim battle among themselves, The prophecy of the world eater shall be fulfilled." Or something like that. And this basically proves that The Thalmor are using Ulfric Stormcloak as already stated in Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak...
      Pro-Imperial ideas aside, Ulfric's rebellion didn't start the Dragon Crisis, the prophecy simply knew it would happen around the time the Skyrim Civil War occurred. But the idea that somehow his rebellion that had no connection to Alduin's return somehow caused it is preposterous.

      If you support the Empire, that's cool, but I do want to clear up the misconceptions regarding Ulfric (at least the more actual and objective parts of it).

      There are no misconceptions, By killing High King Torygg, he brought back Alduin. 

      Blademaster Jauffre is right on this. 

      The Stormcloaks were always fighting the wrong enemy, Just because of their leader, who if you read the Link I shared, you would know, He is a Thalmor asset. The Thalmor wish to bring down the towers, and cause Landfall or a variation of it.

      No, he's not.

      By the way, since you seem very fixated on the contents of the Thalmor Dossier I hope you do realize there's a quote that says "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." the Thalmor want a long drawn out war between the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

      I'm sick of people taking that Dossier out of context and twisting it's words around to make The Empire look perfect, read your own link, dammit!

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:

      Okay, neither of you understand how prophecies work, but whatever. Your analogy is completely apples and oranges. Ulfric's rebellion has no correlation to Alduin's return! How does the time he got sent from the ELDER SCROLL have a connection to someone fighting in a rebellion?

      Besides, if you really believe that. Who "started" the war is sincerely disputed amongst Skyrim players? Did The "Sons of Skyrim" fight in The Markarth Incident? In that case, the Empire was the one who started the war.

      If this crackpot theory was true, Ulfric is not the sole one to be blamed. But I'm not debating this with you, because you'll never admit you're wrong no matter how much evidence I use, I've seen it before on this website and I'm wasting my time again

      Mate, the prophecy says what had to be done in order for Alduin to return, one of these musts is that the 'Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding.'

      In other words.

      Skyrim must be devided, kingless and in a civil war.

      Which is exactly what Ulfric caused.

      Ulfric started the Civil War, after all, Tullius says so and the Stormcloaks make no claims to say otherwise, simply because it is so. The Markarth Incident is where the war truly started, because the Stormcloaks started their rebellion back then.

      Just because you're wrong doesn't mean we are. Ulfric is solely to blame.

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:

      No, he's not.

      By the way, since you seem very fixated on the contents of the Thalmor Dossier I hope you do realize there's a quote that says "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." the Thalmor want a long drawn out war between the Empire and the Stormcloaks.

      I'm sick of people taking that Dossier out of context and twisting it's words around to make The Empire look perfect, read your own link, dammit!

      Ulfric is a Thalmor asset this is another fact that you deny.

      It is to be avoided because it harms the races of man more than an end. Did you also forget to notice how the dossier states that an Imperial victory harms the overall position of the Thalmor in Skyrim?

      The Empire is in the right during the Civil War, not much else to it.

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    • I believe the Dominion is ultimately responsible for the Skyrim Civil War. Not the Empire, not Ulfric.

      That was the reason for having the Empire expell Hammerfell and outlawing Talos worship: the Dominion knew it would tear the Empire apart. They couldn't defeat the Empire militarily, so they decided to divide and conquer.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Zippertrain85 wrote:

      Okay, neither of you understand how prophecies work, but whatever. Your analogy is completely apples and oranges. Ulfric's rebellion has no correlation to Alduin's return! How does the time he got sent from the ELDER SCROLL have a connection to someone fighting in a rebellion?

      Besides, if you really believe that. Who "started" the war is sincerely disputed amongst Skyrim players? Did The "Sons of Skyrim" fight in The Markarth Incident? In that case, the Empire was the one who started the war.

      If this crackpot theory was true, Ulfric is not the sole one to be blamed. But I'm not debating this with you, because you'll never admit you're wrong no matter how much evidence I use, I've seen it before on this website and I'm wasting my time again

      Mate, the prophecy says what had to be done in order for Alduin to return, one of these musts is that the 'Snow Tower lies sundered, kingless, bleeding.'

      In other words.

      Skyrim must be devided, kingless and in a civil war.

      Which is exactly what Ulfric caused.

      Ulfric started the Civil War, after all, Tullius says so and the Stormcloaks make no claims to say otherwise, simply because it is so. The Markarth Incident is where the war truly started, because the Stormcloaks started their rebellion back then.

      Just because you're wrong doesn't mean we are. Ulfric is solely to blame.

      LoL! Repeating the same nonsense a second time doesn't make you stop being wrong, bro. But whatever, as I said, getting you to humbly admit when you're wrong is like trying to walk without your heels or toes touching the ground.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: I believe the Dominion is ultimately responsible for the Skyrim Civil War. Not the Empire, not Ulfric.

      That was the reason for having the Empire expell Hammerfell and outlawing Talos worship: the Dominion knew it would tear the Empire apart. They couldn't defeat the Empire militarily, so they decided to divide and conquer.

      Definitely, both Ulfric and the Empire made decisions that provoked the other surely, but the Dominion is the one that ultimately caused such aggression BETWEEN the Nords and the Empire, who had respected each other for so long.

      It's the idea that Ulfric somehow caused Alduin to come back which is utter-insanity, and only someone like Jauffre who has a completely biased warped knowledge of lore could seriously believe

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    • Please be kind and respectful to eachother's opinions, i understand this is the internet but be calm 

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Ulfric is a Thalmor asset this is another fact that you deny.

      It is to be avoided because it harms the races of man more than an end. Did you also forget to notice how the dossier states that an Imperial victory harms the overall position of the Thalmor in Skyrim?

      The Empire is in the right during the Civil War, not much else to it.

      Ulfric is an unknowing Thalmor asset simply because he is fighting against the Empire. He isn't actively trying to help the Thalmor, in fact he hates the Thalmor to his very core. It is in the Thalmor's best interest for the Skyrim Civil War to continue without a winner, so the Empire loses more men and supplies and becomes weaker.

      They don't want the Stormcloaks to win because of obvious reason. They don't want the Empire to win because that would give them time to recover and regain troops and supplies, the Thalmor doesn't want that.

      I'm sorry but when the Empire activally condones the kidnapping and torture of its citizens just because they refuse to give up a piece of their religion, their very culture, it is clearly not in the right. General Tullius himself says at the Thalmor Embassy:

      "Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.", "I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks."

      When the man that is leading the war against the Stormcloaks says that he is tempted to join the Stormcloaks thanks to the shit happening between the Empire and the Thalmor then you know the Empire is doing some really messed up shit.

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    • The question for me isn't "is Ulfric a Dominion asset", because knowingly or not his rebellion helps them. The question is "is he a willing Dominion agent?". And for that, we can only speculate.

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    • I'd say that that is preposterous, due to it completely going against Ulfric's character. As evidence by his last moments during the Imperial Questline, he honestly wanted what was best for Skyrim and believe that what he was doing was right. That isn't the kind of man that would help the Thalmor, when they are the embodiment of everything he is against.

      Though hey, they made Captain America a secret Hydra agent so anything is possible.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:
      I'd say that that is preposterous, due to it completely going against Ulfric's character. As evidence by his last moments during the Imperial Questline, he honestly wanted what was best for Skyrim and believe that what he was doing was right. That isn't the kind of man that would help the Thalmor, when they are the embodiment of everything he is against.

      Though hey, they made Captain America a secret Hydra agent so anything is possible.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      That pic is beautiful XD

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    • Zippertrain85 wrote:

      LoL! Repeating the same nonsense a second time doesn't make you stop being wrong, bro. But whatever, as I said, getting you to humbly admit when you're wrong is like trying to walk without your heels or toes touching the ground.

      I've actually provided evidence, Alduin's Wall, you on the other hand, have provided none.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Ulfric is an unknowing Thalmor asset simply because he is fighting against the Empire. He isn't actively trying to help the Thalmor, in fact he hates the Thalmor to his very core. It is in the Thalmor's best interest for the Skyrim Civil War to continue without a winner, so the Empire loses more men and supplies and becomes weaker.

      They don't want the Stormcloaks to win because of obvious reason. They don't want the Empire to win because that would give them time to recover and regain troops and supplies, the Thalmor doesn't want that.

      I'm sorry but when the Empire activally condones the kidnapping and torture of its citizens just because they refuse to give up a piece of their religion, their very culture, it is clearly not in the right. General Tullius himself says at the Thalmor Embassy:

      "Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.", "I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks."

      When the man that is leading the war against the Stormcloaks says that he is tempted to join the Stormcloaks thanks to the shit happening between the Empire and the Thalmor then you know the Empire is doing some really messed up shit.

      He was actively trying to help them up until the Markarth Incident, only when the Thalmor threw Ulfric into his jail did he stop willingly working with them. 

      The Thalmor don't want an Imperial victory because it harms their overall position in Skyrim they state so themselves.

      The Empire doesn't condone it, in fact, Rikke and Hadvar still worship Talos. Not to forget Talos isn't part of the Nordic Religion and sure as hell not part of their culture, since the Nords worship Talos for barely 200 years, possibly even less. That even put aside, it's still Ulfric who is responsible for the Thalmor coming to Skyrim, he's to be blamed.

      He's only tempted to do so because he doesn't want to attend her parties, nothing else. 

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote: I'd say that that is preposterous, due to it completely going against Ulfric's character. As evidence by his last moments during the Imperial Questline, he honestly wanted what was best for Skyrim and believe that what he was doing was right. That isn't the kind of man that would help the Thalmor, when they are the embodiment of everything he is against.

      Though hey, they made Captain America a secret Hydra agent so anything is possible.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

      Maybe Ulfric is trying to lead Skyrim into a trap. Perhaps after the Moot elects him High King he would join the Aldmeri Dominion, the perfect way to successfully incorporate Skyrim into the Dominion's territory, without actually having to fight for it themselves. Giving them a foothold in the north and a direct connection to Hammerfell, who knows what happened between Ulfric and Elenwen back in the Great War days... Cue X-Files Music

      Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself... maybe. :P

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      He was actively trying to help them up until the Markarth Incident, only when the Thalmor threw Ulfric into his jail did he stop willingly working with them. 

      The Thalmor don't want an Imperial victory because it harms their overall position in Skyrim they state so themselves.

      The Empire doesn't condone it, in fact, Rikke and Hadvar still worship Talos. Not to forget Talos isn't part of the Nordic Religion and sure as hell not part of their culture, since the Nords worship Talos for barely 200 years, possibly even less. That even put aside, it's still Ulfric who is responsible for the Thalmor coming to Skyrim, he's to be blamed.

      He's only tempted to do so because he doesn't want to attend her parties, nothing else. 

      Actively trying to help them? Hello, before the Markarth Incident he was in the Great War fighting for the Empire. In that war he was captured and then tortured by Elenwen for information about the Imperial City's defenses. He eventually gave the information, but only after they had already taken the Imperial City. Still, the Thalmor made Ulfric think that he was the cause of the capital falling to the Dominion. After getting out of their captivity he went back to Skyrim and soon after the Markarth Incident happened. Nowhere in that time was he actively trying to help the Thalmor so you must be confused.

      PS.: It was the Empire that threw him in jail after the Markarth Incident, at the behest of the Dominion.

      The Empire winning doesn't help their plan of weakening the Empire. Their whole position in Skyrim is to weaken the Empire from the inside, by causing divide and strife between its people. They did so with the Redguards and are now doing so with the Nords.

      The thing with Rikke and Hadvar may be true but if you've played the quest to rescue the Eorlund's son you know that General Tullius knew that he was kidnapped and being tortured by the Thalmor and did nothing about it. Imperial supporters even helped to kidnap him. To the Nords, Talos is the same as Ysmir. And Ysmir worship has been a thing since the 1st Era, nearly 4000 years ago. Even without counting the Ysmir connection, the Nords have worshiped Talos for around 600 years, ever since Tiber Septim died. Actually it is the Empire that is responsible since they signed the Concordat that let the Thalmor have free reign over Imperial lands in the name of enforcing the concordat. Even if Ulfric didn't start his rebellion the Thalmor would still be in the province for the sake of routing out Talos worshipers, since the god's worship is very common in Skyrim.

      Excuse me, but did you read the quotes. He admits that some of the things that Ulfric claims are in fact true and is clearly not a fan of the whole Thalmor-Empire relationship. He seems to hate it so much that he is tempted to switch sides to be able to fight the Thalmor instead of be at their beck and call. He would never do such a thing thanks to his loyalty for the Empire, but he understands that the Thalmor are dragging the Empire's name through the dirt thanks to their shit.

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    • Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Actively trying to help them? Hello, before the Markarth Incident he was in the Great War fighting for the Empire. In that war he was captured and then tortured by Elenwen for information about the Imperial City's defenses. He eventually gave the information, but only after they had already taken the Imperial City. Still, the Thalmor made Ulfric think that he was the cause of the capital falling to the Dominion. After getting out of their captivity he went back to Skyrim and soon after the Markarth Incident happened. Nowhere in that time was he actively trying to help the Thalmor so you must be confused.

      PS.: It was the Empire that threw him in jail after the Markarth Incident, at the behest of the Dominion.

      The Empire winning doesn't help their plan of weakening the Empire. Their whole position in Skyrim is to weaken the Empire from the inside, by causing divide and strife between its people. They did so with the Redguards and are now doing so with the Nords.

      The thing with Rikke and Hadvar may be true but if you've played the quest to rescue the Eorlund's son you know that General Tullius knew that he was kidnapped and being tortured by the Thalmor and did nothing about it. Imperial supporters even helped to kidnap him. To the Nords, Talos is the same as Ysmir. And Ysmir worship has been a thing since the 1st Era, nearly 4000 years ago. Even without counting the Ysmir connection, the Nords have worshiped Talos for around 600 years, ever since Tiber Septim died. Actually it is the Empire that is responsible since they signed the Concordat that let the Thalmor have free reign over Imperial lands in the name of enforcing the concordat. Even if Ulfric didn't start his rebellion the Thalmor would still be in the province for the sake of routing out Talos worshipers, since the god's worship is very common in Skyrim.

      Excuse me, but did you read the quotes. He admits that some of the things that Ulfric claims are in fact true and is clearly not a fan of the whole Thalmor-Empire relationship. He seems to hate it so much that he is tempted to switch sides to be able to fight the Thalmor instead of be at their beck and call. He would never do such a thing thanks to his loyalty for the Empire, but he understands that the Thalmor are dragging the Empire's name through the dirt thanks to their shit.

      After the war contact was established between Ulfric and the Thalmor, so yes, he was directly trying to aid them.

      He wasn't captured for Talos worship but because he fought alongside the Stormcloaks, in fact, there's no evidence, whatsoever that Thorald was a Talos worshipper. The Nords worship Talos for 201 years or less, they didn't worship Talos in the Third Era. The Thalmor could only come with an excuse, which is what Ulfric gave them. 

      And we don't know what he is exactly referring to, he might just be referring to the fact that they should be fighting the Thalmor instead of one another. The Thalmor don't rule over the Empire. 

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    • TheOrthodoxDemolitionsExpert wrote:
      do you have anything to say about the fact that if you side with the empire, and thus kill ulfric, in sovngarde you find ulfric and he says that looking back on it he feels that his progression was wrong and that he should have reconsidered?

      He never says anything of the sort. He simly regrets allowing Alduin to go unchallenged. Legate Rikke says the same thing when you meet her in Sovngarde.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Ulfric is an unknowing Thalmor asset simply because he is fighting against the Empire. He isn't actively trying to help the Thalmor, in fact he hates the Thalmor to his very core. It is in the Thalmor's best interest for the Skyrim Civil War to continue without a winner, so the Empire loses more men and supplies and becomes weaker.

      They don't want the Stormcloaks to win because of obvious reason. They don't want the Empire to win because that would give them time to recover and regain troops and supplies, the Thalmor doesn't want that.

      I'm sorry but when the Empire activally condones the kidnapping and torture of its citizens just because they refuse to give up a piece of their religion, their very culture, it is clearly not in the right. General Tullius himself says at the Thalmor Embassy:

      "Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.", "I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks."

      When the man that is leading the war against the Stormcloaks says that he is tempted to join the Stormcloaks thanks to the shit happening between the Empire and the Thalmor then you know the Empire is doing some really messed up shit.

      He was actively trying to help them up until the Markarth Incident, only when the Thalmor threw Ulfric into his jail did he stop willingly working with them. 

      The Thalmor don't want an Imperial victory because it harms their overall position in Skyrim they state so themselves.

      The Empire doesn't condone it, in fact, Rikke and Hadvar still worship Talos. Not to forget Talos isn't part of the Nordic Religion and sure as hell not part of their culture, since the Nords worship Talos for barely 200 years, possibly even less. That even put aside, it's still Ulfric who is responsible for the Thalmor coming to Skyrim, he's to be blamed.

      He's only tempted to do so because he doesn't want to attend her parties, nothing else. 

      Talos goes by the name Ysmir in the nords belief which anyone who knows even an ounce of lore knows that the nords has believed in before the empire even believed in talos. To add to this Dragonborn and the like were prone to be Nords and the Septim empire was based off of a dragonborn linitige, meaning that the Septims were most likely actual nords in roots. as for on topic the dominion is at fault, however both the empire and the stormcloaks had plenty of chances to not follow prophacy. Then you have the thought process of that the war split skyrim cleanly down the middle for which side to join, if you remember 4 of the 5 cities that the empire has control of either are partially or forcefully held by the empire, this means that the split would actually be more of 7/9ths in favor of the stormcloaks without counting those who didn't care for the war, Balgruuf, the empire had at best 22% of the population of skyrim fighting for them. In conclusion it is hardly a house divided, if anything it is almost completely on sided and a war between 2 regions. ( Cyrodiil VS Skyrim) With 2 of the other regions out of the empire, not including the dominion states, you would have to look at the other 2 regions to decide if they would help, the breton & orc, who have shown no love for either the empire or the thalmor, and the dunmer who are currently recovering from the Red Mountain eruption, the empire in the war was really just a handful of nords and the imperials of Cyrodiil, and a stormcloak victory would represent that the empire caved in way too early in the great war.

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    • Xelistren wrote:
      Talos goes by the name Ysmir in the [N]ords belief which anyone who knows even an ounce of lore knows that the [N]ords has [sic] believed in before the [E]mpire even believed in [T]alos.

      I just want to interject to say that Ysmir has historically been more of a title (attributions to Wulfharth, Pelinal Whitestrake, Tiber Septim, and the Last Dragonborn), so that is to say that the Nords culturally venerated those who had the title and not Talos himself until those who would be known as Ysmir were regarded as being aspects of Talos who was apotheosized into the Imperial Pantheon and adopted by the contemporary Nordic culture (3E 38 at the earliest) and had not previously been an explicit part of the Nordic Pantheon.

      Xelistren wrote:
      To add to this Dragonborn and the like were prone to be Nords and the Septim empire was based off of a dragonborn linitige, [sic] meaning that the Septims were most likely actual [N]ords in roots. [A]s for on topic the dominion is at fault, however both the empire and the [S]tormcloaks had plenty of chances to not follow prophacy.[sic]

      Dragonborn have not necessarily been likely to be any particular race. Miraak was a Nord, but Alessia was a Nede, Reman Cyrodiil was likely an Imperial, Tiber Septim may have been a Nord, but conflicting information suggests that he was a Breton or Atmoran, and the Last Dragonborn could be any of nine races. I also don’t know what you mean when you say that the Stormcloaks had plenty of chances not to follow prophecy. How?

      Xelistren wrote:
      Then you have the thought process of that the war split [S]kyrim cleanly down the middle for which side to join, if you remember 4 of the 5 cities that the empire has control of either are partially or forcefully held by the empire, this means that the split would actually be more of 7/9ths in favor of the [S]tormcloaks without counting those who didn't care for the war, Balgruuf, the empire had at best 22% of the population of [S]kyrim fighting for them.

      Territorial nodes (cities, towns, etc.) controlled by one belligerent of a civil war are typically held by a military force and not by popular regency to prevent insurgency with the exception of areas where the population is naturally supportive (Solitude for the Empire and Windhelm for the Stormcloaks). This doesn’t mean that the Empire is an occupying force as the Stormcloaks employ the same militaristic control over demographic centres for the same purpose. There is nothing to indicate that the Empire is so unpopular as to be significantly out of favour with the population particularly given that the Empire has an active recruiting pool of enlisted soldiers from Skyrim’s population, especially if hold guards are included. There is no way you can make a prediction of 22% with even a generous margin of error given that it seems you are making the false assumption that the holds each have an equivalent population to each other and that the populations of said holds all have 100% support for any particular faction. I would like to know your methodology, otherwise.

      Xelistren wrote:
      In conclusion it is hardly a house divided, if anything it is almost completely on [sic] sided and a war between 2 regions. ( Cyrodiil VS Skyrim) With 2 of the other regions out of the [E]mpire, not including the [D]ominion states, you would have to look at the other 2 regions to decide if they would help, the [B]reton & [O]rc, who have shown no love for either the empire or the [T]halmor, and the [D]unmer who are currently recovering from the Red Mountain eruption, the [E]mpire in the war was really just a handful of [N]ords and the [I]mperials of Cyrodiil, and a [S]tormcloak victory would represent that the empire caved in way too early in the [G]reat [W]ar.

      Nothing you have provided has adequately proven your conclusion. In regards to assistance from other provinces, High Rock is a territory of the Empire and thus has it’s recruiting pools open to the Legion (including via conscription) and likely has been redeploying and detaching battalions into Skyrim, and Orsimer are often known to join the Legion in Skyrim and willing provide support since the Bretons and Redguards sacked Orsinium and it was the Seventh and Fifteenth Legions that voluntarily suffered casualties in defence of the Orsimer exodus into Skyrim. The Empire, twenty-odd years following the Great War, cannot be said to be a weak or incapable force, only that they are spread thin which explains the lack of asymmetry in the Civil War. It is likely possible for the Empire to completely eliminate the Stormcloaks with a consolidated war effort, but this would detract too significantly from the defence of the Empire elsewhere in the face of the Aldmeri Dominion.

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    • Xelistren wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Harold Burned-Mane wrote:

      Ulfric is an unknowing Thalmor asset simply because he is fighting against the Empire. He isn't actively trying to help the Thalmor, in fact he hates the Thalmor to his very core. It is in the Thalmor's best interest for the Skyrim Civil War to continue without a winner, so the Empire loses more men and supplies and becomes weaker.

      They don't want the Stormcloaks to win because of obvious reason. They don't want the Empire to win because that would give them time to recover and regain troops and supplies, the Thalmor doesn't want that.

      I'm sorry but when the Empire activally condones the kidnapping and torture of its citizens just because they refuse to give up a piece of their religion, their very culture, it is clearly not in the right. General Tullius himself says at the Thalmor Embassy:

      "Look around the room and you'll see what we're up against. Just between you and me, a lot of what Ulfric says about the Empire is true.", "I swear Elenwen holds these parties just to make the Empire look bad. Almost makes me want to join the Stormcloaks."

      When the man that is leading the war against the Stormcloaks says that he is tempted to join the Stormcloaks thanks to the shit happening between the Empire and the Thalmor then you know the Empire is doing some really messed up shit.

      He was actively trying to help them up until the Markarth Incident, only when the Thalmor threw Ulfric into his jail did he stop willingly working with them. 

      The Thalmor don't want an Imperial victory because it harms their overall position in Skyrim they state so themselves.

      The Empire doesn't condone it, in fact, Rikke and Hadvar still worship Talos. Not to forget Talos isn't part of the Nordic Religion and sure as hell not part of their culture, since the Nords worship Talos for barely 200 years, possibly even less. That even put aside, it's still Ulfric who is responsible for the Thalmor coming to Skyrim, he's to be blamed.

      He's only tempted to do so because he doesn't want to attend her parties, nothing else. 

      Talos goes by the name Ysmir in the nords belief which anyone who knows even an ounce of lore knows that the nords has believed in before the empire even believed in talos. To add to this Dragonborn and the like were prone to be Nords and the Septim empire was based off of a dragonborn linitige, meaning that the Septims were most likely actual nords in roots. as for on topic the dominion is at fault, however both the empire and the stormcloaks had plenty of chances to not follow prophacy. Then you have the thought process of that the war split skyrim cleanly down the middle for which side to join, if you remember 4 of the 5 cities that the empire has control of either are partially or forcefully held by the empire, this means that the split would actually be more of 7/9ths in favor of the stormcloaks without counting those who didn't care for the war, Balgruuf, the empire had at best 22% of the population of skyrim fighting for them. In conclusion it is hardly a house divided, if anything it is almost completely on sided and a war between 2 regions. ( Cyrodiil VS Skyrim) With 2 of the other regions out of the empire, not including the dominion states, you would have to look at the other 2 regions to decide if they would help, the breton & orc, who have shown no love for either the empire or the thalmor, and the dunmer who are currently recovering from the Red Mountain eruption, the empire in the war was really just a handful of nords and the imperials of Cyrodiil, and a stormcloak victory would represent that the empire caved in way too early in the great war.

      Ysmir the God is not Talos the god. Read Varieties of Faith in the Empire. Ysmir is his Nordic aspect.

      The Septims were also most certainly not "Nords in roots", Tiber Septim came from High Rock, and the vast majority of his descendants were Imperials who were schooled by the Bretons. Only a handful of Nord Emperors, if it's even a handful, existed under the Septims.

      The Empire isn't forcing any Hold to be on their side, what kind of nonsense is that? The Legion in Skyrim is locally recruited because Cyrodiil refuses to send over troops, have you not been paying attention?

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    • 75.142.149.136 wrote:
      history johny  lets go back in  the first 2 era human and the elves were not enemies but freinds or somthing. the elvs thought we dont need from the humans so war of the night tears came. the humans race was wiped out almost the ysgramor himself came from sovengaurd with his army the eventruly destroyes the elvs. but there was survivers the snow elf came to the dwemor for help they agreed but betrayed hapen the dwemor gave the snow elfs poisnos food which also makes the blind and this what they look like know the falmer. sudenly the falmer destoryed the dwemor no surviver no evendice poeple say that they use keening and harkon heart to disapear. herer is the stupid part years later the thalmor sneak in the crodil castle which is the only bigest tower, threaten the emperor the 2 or the 3 i dont know. made him sign the golden contract which out law talos a hero and let the elvs live. some times you see a prisoner a nord with a thalmor if you see that kill the tar out of the thlmor. ufric was prisoner beacause he thought the treaty gold contract was a bad idea and killed toryy the boy for some love story.And later he was set free or escaped at the ambasy.Then he starded a war.I think galmor stone fist was right we didnt need the imperles skyrim fought tons of batles and its still in the hands of the nords

      (Sorry for jumping slightly off topic for a bit) Someone (this 1 I'm quoting) needs to study their Lore.

      The Falmer didn't and i repeat DIDN'T Destroy the Dwemer.

      Go back and read the in-game books. 1 such book will point you in the right direction.

      If memory serves me right, it was Azura who made them vanish.

      Even though Arniel Gane's quest does raise doubts as he tries to attemt to teleport himself to them but fails and gets turned into a shade (should of used the Heart of Lorkhan/Shor/Shezzar (same Divine) instead i reckon).

      That's firstly.......

      Secondly..........

      Ysgramor DIDN'T go to Saarthal from Sovengarde with his 500 Companions..

      From Atmora he made the trip (again mate, read the bloody books).

      .........................................................................................................................................................................

      Anyway back to the topic at hand.

      Ulfric definitely went about things all wrong.

      It did indeed give the elves (namely the Aldmeri Dominion) more of a hold on Skyrim.

      Talos of Atmora was made a Divine unintentionally due to The Underking (King Wulfhearth).

      So there technically are still 9 Divines. Talos made 10 if you count the Missing Divine who is missing from Soverngarde when you go to kick Alduin's arse. The clue(s) as to why Shor/Shezzar/Lorkhan is missing from Soverngarde is also in the books.

      His Body as well as his Heart are underneath Red Mountain (Dagoth-Ur)....

      Therefore his spirit is trapped literally & figuratively (hence the continuing & unending ash spewing out of Red Mountain constantly).

      My new & current play-through I'm going to kick his (Ulfric's) arse again and shout him to near death like he did High King Torryg and then gut him with my Stahlrim Dagger like he deserves.

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