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  • If Argonians aren't allowed to buy property in Windhelm, then how can an Argonian Dragonborn buy Hjerim? Is there Dialogue about this from Ulfric/Brunwulf/Jorleif?

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    • Are you just satirizing people who make persistent claims about the racism in Windhelm?

      But in all seriousness, the developers probably don't care enough about their own lore to make these delicate changes. In this case, forbidding the Argonian dovahkiin from buying property.

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    • A lot of people like playing the beast races and Bethesda wouldn't just stop those people from joining the Stormcloaks buying Hjerim entering some citys etc (although it might be interesting if they did).

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    • Of course they wouldn't stop them from buying the house completely, but even just a line of dialogue would have shown this. I guess it hardly needs to be spoken. You've just won the war for the Stormcloaks, they kind of have to let you do this kind of thing, 

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    • Snowviraptor wrote:
      Of course they wouldn't stop them from buying the house completely, but even just a line of dialogue would have shown this. I guess it hardly needs to be spoken. You've just won the war for the Stormcloaks, they kind of have to let you do this kind of thing, 

      Would be interesting if you couldn't even join the Stormcloaks to begin with.

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    • I'm not sure if this applies to Argonians, but to quote Ralof:

      "You don't have to be a Nord to join the Stormcloaks"

      Although that's not a 100% exact quote.

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    • if you were argonian, why would you even  join the stormcloaks since they're all racists anyway. if i were argonian, i'd join the imperials

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    • 192.101.185.34 wrote: if you were argonian, why would you even  join the stormcloaks since they're all racists anyway.

      Ayyyyye, high five!

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    • Well, to be fair, the Imperials did try and cut off your head. What you would probably do is not join either side.

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    • For Azura, The Imperials cutting your head was just a misunderstanding. You were at the wrong place at the wrong time, if you were a war leader and you just captured the enemy leader, would you search why is there an extra prisioner to execute?

      And for the topic, Why would an argonian join the stormcloaks? If the empire takes over he would be allowed

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    • Not all stormcloaks are racist. Some are, but not all (Ralof). And there are plenty of racist Imperials too might I remind you. I find that the empire taking away the citizens of Skyrim's ability to legally worship one of their gods or speak out against that a more serious issue. I don't necessarily agree with the anti-mer ideals, but they do make a good point about "Faithless Imperials".

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    • They are not faithless, the just prefer to worship talos in secret so they don't go to war. Its not about racism but more because of the xenophobia of the stormcloaks.

      Lets try not to derail from the topic

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    • I joined the imperials because when i whegh the options think about it. the empire no outright worship of talos but not alot of racism  and most of them hate the thalmore

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    • Please do stick to the topic.

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    • I would find it really interesting if you couldn't enter Windhelm as an Argonian or any cities as a Khajiit. You would be allowed in sometimes (e.g. I have a message from Riverwood. About the Dragon attack) or if you had completed the main quest ("I'm the Dragonborn. I've saved all your lives twice."). There could be a questline to allow Khajiit (and Argonians) into cities - you go the Jarl and do a quest to prove Khajiit can be trustworthy and then a couple of Khajiit would buy a house and not do much. I think that would be relatively easily codable, but it would be a bit annoying. 

      If you weren't Khajiit, you'd have to convince the Jarl and/or a number of Thanes. Possibly once you'd completed the Civil War you could have a word with the leader and say, "Let Khajiit/Argonians into the cities."

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    • Purrington wrote:

      192.101.185.34 wrote: if you were argonian, why would you even  join the stormcloaks since they're all racists anyway.

      Ayyyyye, high five!

      I may be a year too late, but can i get a high five as well? Imperial Argonians ftw

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    • Schnitzel V wrote:
      I may be a year too late, but can i get a high five as well? Imperial Argonians ftw

      A year too late? It hasn't even been a whole month since I left that comment...

      High Five!

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    • Purrington wrote:
      A year too late? It hasn't even been a whole month since I left that comment...

      High Five!

      Lol, i read 2015 XD

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    • AzuraKnight
      AzuraKnight removed this reply because:
      Not helping and off topic.
      10:16, February 13, 2016
      This reply has been removed
    • Schnitzel V wrote:
      Purrington wrote:
      A year too late? It hasn't even been a whole month since I left that comment...

      High Five!

      Lol, i read 2015 XD

      I joined the Stormcloaks, because I believe in religious freedom. I'm an Argonian, but I don't believe that you should put personal issues before matters of "national" importance. 

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    • As a dedicated Argonian player, I feel that the honest best course of action for roleplay puropses is specific to the particular character and boils down to his or her stance on two issues:

      ISSUE 1: RACISM

      Racism, or at least inherent racial bias, is endemic not so much to the Stormcloaks specifically as to the Nords on the whole. Indeed, Ralof and Hadvar are some of the only Nords on either side never to call the Dragonborn a "lizard" or some similar slur (Galmar does it, the Imperial officer calling you up to be executed does it, and so on). Ulfric, despite his despicable racial policies towards Argonians and Dunmer, seems to hold no personal bias against the Dragonborn, and it appears that the rest of the Stormcloaks are willing to make a personal exception for the Dragonborn after he or she proves him- or herself with service to the cause. Should the Dragonborn's principles be racially defined, that is, "any slight against an Argonian is a slight against me", then the Stormcloaks' attitude, and the overall Nord attitude, are distasteful to say the least, but, for a more selfish character, shouldn't matter as much. On the whole, Imperial soldiers and officers are far more racially diverse than Stormcloaks and seem far more tolerant of the Dragonborn, but it should be kept in mind that they are, at least for the moment, acting on behalf of the Thalmor, who are the objective bad guys and obviously have no good intentions for the Argonian race. In addition, isolated examples of bigotry continue to exist within the Imperial fold even while the Dragonborn is making a name for him- or herself within it.

      ISSUE 2: THE THALMOR/THE FUTURE OF SKYRIM/THE EMPIRE

      This is complicated, to say the least. The Stormcloak revolt is predicated exclusively by the actions of the Aldmeri Dominion: the ban of Talos worship, the openly stated plans to end all races of Men, the overarching presence of an Elven authority in Skyrim for the first time since Ysgramor kicked out the Aldmer in the Merethic Era. None of these issues apply particularly to Argonians, but dissatisfaction with the Empire and desire for self-determination are nothing new to them. Indeed, the events through which Black Marsh broke free from the Empire in the early Fourth Era are not entirely dissimilar to the Stormcloak rebellion. However, without a powerful Empire of Tamriel, nothing protects the fledgling Black Marsh/Morrowind Argonian-ruled state from an all-out Dominion invasion, which would likely result in widespread destruction and loss of life among both Argonians and Dunmer (the two races have their difficulties, but I like to think that their diasporas in Skyrim have some degree of solidarity), which, regardless of the Dragonborn's stance on the validity of Ulfric's claims for rebellion, are definitely not desirable to him or her as an Argonian. It's possible that the Argonian state, through guerilla tactics and the skillful use of the unforgiving terrain of Black Marsh and Morrowind, could repel such an invasion eventually (just as the Redguards did in Hammerfell after the signing of the Concordat), but this is not a certainty and the significant loss of Argonian lives would be all but assured. In addition, the Empire of Tamriel is a significantly more favorable environment for Argonians than the Aldmeri Dominion, and dooming it to eventual conquest by the Thalmor would not be desirable. By stemming the rebellion and killing Ulfric, the Dragonborn may be going against his or her principles, but leaving the Empire strong enough to revitalize itself and stave off the Dominion in the south, perhaps with help from a reconciled Argonian state and a reintegrated Hammerfell.

      Overall, this kind of reduces itself to "do you, as the Argonian Dragonborn, sacrifice your principles of self-determination for your survival with the Empire, or potentially doom all of Tamriel to conquest by the Thalmor, but stick with your principles and side with the Stormcloaks?" Racism is a notable issue, and Ulfric's personal behavior towards the Dragonborn seems incongruous with his oppressive policies in Windhelm, but many on the Imperial side are just as bigoted and the Aldmeri Dominion likely views the Argonians as just as, or even more, undesirable than Men.

      Just some food for thought.

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    • You're the Dragonborn. To put it simply, you do not run on the same rules that NPC's do.

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    • While Fraghn is right I have to state that I personally tink the empire is ther lesser or two evils.

      (While they're maybe some bigoted imperials I don't remeber encountering as many as I do nords, and they're just agressive people in general.) Seriously the kahjiit, argonian and redguard aren't allowed in many cities and that's malarky.

      People want to argue that stormcloaks are better for everyone but I feel like those people aren't used to looking at it from a minorities viewpoint, skyrim has more than just nords living in it, it has people, familes who been around for centries and they shouldn't be treated lessor or have to leave cause they aren't nords.

      I tried siding with the stormcloaks once and learned certain npcs would suddenly start getting less business and the lucky one's had a friend/lover who were nords so they were tolerated at best. But think about the other races whom aren't married or have nord friends to help them who are already down on their luck. And there's plent of kind nords who think the stormcloaks are wrong as well, so if anyone wants to mention matters of "national" importance; remember the other races lives are apart of that nation and they are as important as anyone else.

      regardless of homicidal high elves,  I agree maybe siding with places like hammerfell and others can help pull through against them.

      Skyrim belongs to call, that's the real "National" importance

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    • MNA

      Ftaghn  I agree, with regards to an Argonian Dragonborn siding with the Stormcloaks, it really depends on the sort of Argonian you RP as. You aren't given any backstory aside from being a prisoner (As an Argonian, it's suggested you were a worker at the docks but that was just a guess by Hadvar). 

      I could see an Argonian sympathizing with the Stormcloaks' cause of freedom from the Empire. The Black Marsh has a history of fighting to remain free from the Empire as well. 

      He or she might think: "Skyrim is for the Nords, Black Marsh is for the Argonians."

      A "Black Marsh Nationalist" Dragonborn also probably wouldn't care that they treat the Dunmer poorly, given their history there, and might even see Argonians trying to integrate too firmly into Imperial or Skyrim culture as betraying the Hist. You see Argonians in Skyrim praying to the Imperial gods for instance. 

      I only slightly disagree in that I doubt such an Argonian would be that concerned about the Dominion. More likely, the Dragonborn might not even care about the Dominion/Empire war. Even Tiber Septim never truly conquered the Black Marsh. Let the Elves come and try.

      A Thalmor invasion of Black Marsh sounds insteresting I'll admit. They'd have to rely heavily on Khajiit and Bosmer allies.

      EDIT: Now that I think about it, there is an established faction of Argonians called the An-Xileel who might fit the mindset I'm thinking of. What on earth he or she would have been doing that got them stuck on that cart in the intro is something to ponder. 

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    • MNA wrote:
      Ftaghn I agree, with regards to an Argonian Dragonborn siding with the Stormcloaks, it really depends on the sort of Argonian you RP as. You aren't given any backstory aside from being a prisoner (As an Argonian, it's suggested you were a worker at the docks but that was just a guess by Hadvar). 

      I could see an Argonian sympathizing with the Stormcloaks' cause of freedom from the Empire. The Black Marsh has a history of fighting to remain free from the Empire as well. 

      He or she might think: "Skyrim is for the Nords, Black Marsh is for the Argonians."

      A "Black Marsh Nationalist" Dragonborn also probably wouldn't care that they treat the Dunmer poorly, given their history there, and might even see Argonians trying to integrate too firmly into Imperial or Skyrim culture as betraying the Hist. You see Argonians in Skyrim praying to the Imperial gods for instance. 

      I only slightly disagree in that I doubt such an Argonian would be that concerned about the Dominion. More likely, the Dragonborn might not even care about the Dominion/Empire war. Even Tiber Septim never truly conquered the Black Marsh. Let the Elves come and try.

      A Thalmor invasion of Black Marsh sounds insteresting I'll admit. They'd have to rely heavily on Khajiit and Bosmer allies.

      EDIT: Now that I think about it, there is an established faction of Argonians called the An-Xileel who might fit the mindset I'm thinking of. What on earth he or she would have been doing that got them stuck on that cart in the intro is something to ponder. 

      The only reason the Argonians revolted was Thalmor tampering, nothing else.


      The Dunmer banned slavery, so that argument goes out the window. 

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    • MNA

      The Thalmor encouraged the Argonians to invade Vvardenfell...I'm confused, what are you saying then? Are you saying some Argonians would have Thalmor sympathies? Regardless of whether the Dunmer abolished slavery i doubt most Argonians would just forgive and forget.

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    • MNA wrote:
      The Thalmor encouraged the Argonians to invade Vvardenfell...I'm confused, what are you saying then? Are you saying some Argonians would have Thalmor sympathies? Regardless of whether the Dunmer abolished slavery i doubt most Argonians would just forgive and forget.

      'While Morrowind and the Imperial forces in Black Marsh were still reeling from the consecutive catastrophes of the Oblivion Crisis and the destruction of Vvardenfell, the Thalmor incited the Argonians to mount a massive uprising. Black Marsh and southern Morrowind were completely lost to the Argonians, but luckily the Thalmor too lost what influence they had over the reptilians.' -Rising Threat, Vol. IV


      Relations between Morrowind and Black Marsh were increasing since the abolishment of slavery. And blacks forgave and forgot after the whites banished slavery, in fact, they praised the whites for doing so, I see no reason why it would be different for the Argonians.

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    • MNA
      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      And blacks forgave and forgot after the whites banished slavery,

      Uh...no, I don't really think so. Not broadly. And human history is not one of 'forgive and forget.' Really, take your pick historically.

      Regardless, I'm not disputing that the Thalmor did that, just questioning why that would mean that an Argonian Dragonborn would or would not join the Stormcloaks.

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    • Ulfric is borrowing very heavily from Nordic legend for his war campaign. He challenges High King Torygg to a duel in the "old way" for leadership, and uses the Empire's ban on Talos worship to further his cause. How would it look politically if he refused to allow the Dragonborn, a hero of Nordic legend, to live in his city?

      Regardless of what race the Dragonborn is, refusing him entry into his city would be highly damaging. He's better off granting him the same rights as any Nord (including purchase of property), since history will probably not remember anything more than his title anyway.

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    • MNA wrote:

      Uh...no, I don't really think so. Not broadly. And human history is not one of 'forgive and forget.' Really, take your pick historically.

      Regardless, I'm not disputing that the Thalmor did that, just questioning why that would mean that an Argonian Dragonborn would or would not join the Stormcloaks.

      Never heard of any problems by the ones that were the actual slaves, the only ones you hear complain about slavery in real life are the people who weren't even around when it was a thing.


      Because Black Marsh has no hatred for the Empire.

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    • MNA
      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      MNA wrote:

      Uh...no, I don't really think so. Not broadly. And human history is not one of 'forgive and forget.' Really, take your pick historically.

      Regardless, I'm not disputing that the Thalmor did that, just questioning why that would mean that an Argonian Dragonborn would or would not join the Stormcloaks.

      Never heard of any problems by the ones that were the actual slaves, the only ones you hear complain about slavery in real life are the people who weren't even around when it was a thing.


      Because Black Marsh has no hatred for the Empire.

      Wha...? Are you seriously claiming there are no real long term reprucussions on our society from the legacy of slavery?

      More to the point, look at places like Yugoslavia, or the Middle East, where ethnic feuds go back over a thousand years. People don't forget.

      With regards to Black Marsh and the Empire...even if I give you that, so what? Does that preclude an Argonian from being sympathetic to the Stormcloaks? Or wanting to weaken the foreign power on their border?

      In the case of a Dragonborn Argonian BTW, the larger issue might be the crisis of faith he or she would suffer from the claim that they have the soul of a dragon bestowed by Akatosh. It would be hard to square with Argonian religion.

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    • In response to OP, because players would be mad if they couldn't buy the house based on their race. The same reason, in my opinion, why Bethesda made it possible for non-human races to join the Stormcloaks. 

      If you're looking for a non-"Bethesda not wanting to piss of players" reason, likely because:

      A) By the time you can buy it, you've pretty much won the war for Ulfric, so you're on his good side unlike the other Argonians at the docks.

      B) You can afford it. Money can make people ignore a lot of prejudices.

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    • MNA wrote:

      Wha...? Are you seriously claiming there are no real long term reprucussions on our society from the legacy of slavery?

      More to the point, look at places like Yugoslavia, or the Middle East, where ethnic feuds go back over a thousand years. People don't forget.

      With regards to Black Marsh and the Empire...even if I give you that, so what? Does that preclude an Argonian from being sympathetic to the Stormcloaks? Or wanting to weaken the foreign power on their border?

      In the case of a Dragonborn Argonian BTW, the larger issue might be the crisis of faith he or she would suffer from the claim that they have the soul of a dragon bestowed by Akatosh. It would be hard to square with Argonian religion.

      You're comparing it to the middle east? Seriously? Just in case you didn't know, slavery based on race was done by the Europeans, and after they abolished it, the blacks had no problems. Only now, in the 21th century, did they become pissed. The Argonians are not mad about the slavery at all, look at Riften.


      The Argonians do not involve themselves in foreign politics. Their millitary force is weak.

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    • MNA
      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      MNA wrote:

      Wha...? Are you seriously claiming there are no real long term reprucussions on our society from the legacy of slavery?

      More to the point, look at places like Yugoslavia, or the Middle East, where ethnic feuds go back over a thousand years. People don't forget.

      With regards to Black Marsh and the Empire...even if I give you that, so what? Does that preclude an Argonian from being sympathetic to the Stormcloaks? Or wanting to weaken the foreign power on their border?

      In the case of a Dragonborn Argonian BTW, the larger issue might be the crisis of faith he or she would suffer from the claim that they have the soul of a dragon bestowed by Akatosh. It would be hard to square with Argonian religion.

      You're comparing it to the middle east? Seriously? Just in case you didn't know, slavery based on race was done by the Europeans, and after they abolished it, the blacks had no problems. Only now, in the 21th century, did they become pissed. 

      So utterly and obvioiusly untrue I'm not even sure how to address this. Are you unaware of Jim Crow and the KKK?

      And again, with regards to the Argonians...I'm not talking about going to war I'm simply stating that it is reasonable for an individual Arogonian to sympathize with the StormCloaks. That's it. 

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    • MNA wrote:

      So utterly and obvioiusly untrue I'm not even sure how to address this. Are you unaware of Jim Crow and the KKK?

      And again, with regards to the Argonians...I'm not talking about going to war I'm simply stating that it is reasonable for an individual Arogonian to sympathize with the StormCloaks. That's it. 

      Please do tell me when the KKK were slaves..... 


      It's also reasonable for an individual Argonian to sympathize with the Imperials... More so, in fact. Because the Stormcloaks force them to live somewhere because of their race.... 

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    • MNA

      I'm saying that former slaves and their descendents did not suddenly have all their problems solved in the American South when slavery ended. There was still voter disenfranchisment, segregation by law, lynchings, etc. 

      I never denied an Argonian could side with the Empire. It depends on how you role play the character. I simply stated a Storm Cloak sympathizing Argonian was plausible.

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    • MNA wrote:
      I'm saying that former slaves and their descendents did not suddenly have all their problems solved in the American South when slavery ended. There was still voter disenfranchisment, segregation by law, lynchings, etc. 

      I never denied an Argonian could side with the Empire. It depends on how you role play the character. I simply stated a Storm Cloak sympathizing Argonian was plausible.

      Then why do they live fine alongside each other in Riften? The Argonians do not have any problems with the Dunmer, nor the other way around, just the An-Xileel. 


      Not logical though.

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    • MNA

      Why couldn't the player character be aligned with the An-Xileel before coming to Skyrim? 

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    • MNA wrote:
      Why couldn't the player character be aligned with the An-Xileel before coming to Skyrim? 

      Because the An-Xileel are nationalist and at war with Morrowind.

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    • MNA
      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      MNA wrote:
      Why couldn't the player character be aligned with the An-Xileel before coming to Skyrim? 
      Because the An-Xileel are nationalist and at war with Morrowind.

      Yes, and why would that mean the character couldn't be an An-Xileel or An-Xileel sympathizing Argonian?

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    • MNA wrote:

      Yes, and why would that mean the character couldn't be an An-Xileel or An-Xileel sympathizing Argonian?

      You said alligned, not sympathizer.

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    • MNA

      Well okay, either way, why not? 

      I could actually see a few other scenarios for an Argonian Dragonborn lending his sword to Ulfric, for the record. He could, for instance, just take the whole 'almost beheading me' thing very personally and join Ulfric out of spite or desire for revenge.

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    • Is it possible to join stormcloaks, and then join imperials?

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    • Maximums1444 wrote:
      Is it possible to join stormcloaks, and then join imperials?

      Not the topic, but during the jagged crown you can give the crown to Tullius to join them

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    • WrathOfHircine wrote:

      Maximums1444 wrote:
      Is it possible to join stormcloaks, and then join imperials?

      Not the topic, but during the jagged crown you can give the crown to Tullius to join them

      If you join the Stormcloaks, you have to complete Rescue of Fort Neugrad to buy Hjerim, which is past the point where you can switch sides. So no buying Hjerim then flipping Ulfric the bird.

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    • Dang it well to late for that bought it the other day now I live there. Good home btw not best buy its very nice especially from breezehome. I bought lakeview but it had a lot of bugs, didnt register and wouldnt properly furnished. So reloaded before I bought it and got hjerim. Good choice I think.

      To talk about topic, that would be cool if race determined what and where you can or cant do or go.

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    • Well, For one Ulfric never cared about the race of the dragonborn as he/she was still a big asset to the rebellion, (the following is a true fact proven by a dialogue) and Ulfric wanted his strongest warrior living close to him, (sorry Galmar!) The dragonborn is really popular among the rebellion as the stormcloaks started calling the dragonborn as the bone-breaker (just a nickname) everyone had respect for him and thus the race of the dragonborn was not of any importance. and if you sided with the imperials, well, they have to! i mean you bassicly captured all of skyrim back for them including the capital of the stormcloaks because the imperial guards did NOTHING, well just a bit compared to the Dragonborn.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      MNA wrote:

      Wha...? Are you seriously claiming there are no real long term reprucussions on our society from the legacy of slavery?

      More to the point, look at places like Yugoslavia, or the Middle East, where ethnic feuds go back over a thousand years. People don't forget.

      With regards to Black Marsh and the Empire...even if I give you that, so what? Does that preclude an Argonian from being sympathetic to the Stormcloaks? Or wanting to weaken the foreign power on their border?

      In the case of a Dragonborn Argonian BTW, the larger issue might be the crisis of faith he or she would suffer from the claim that they have the soul of a dragon bestowed by Akatosh. It would be hard to square with Argonian religion.

      You're comparing it to the middle east? Seriously? Just in case you didn't know, slavery based on race was done by the Europeans, and after they abolished it, the blacks had no problems. Only now, in the 21th century, did they become pissed. The Argonians are not mad about the slavery at all, look at Riften.


      The Argonians do not involve themselves in foreign politics. Their millitary force is weak.

      not at all! their military was strong! i mean look at the oblivion crisis! but the military was nothing if not guide by a proper goverment! that is the problem in Black marsh

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    • 192.101.185.34 wrote:
      if you were argonian, why would you even  join the stormcloaks since they're all racists anyway. if i were argonian, i'd join the imperials

      no, no, no, no, no! the stormcloaks are not racist, the rasicm only applies in Windhelm.

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    • Minecraft Dragonboy 99 wrote:

      not at all! their military was strong! i mean look at the oblivion crisis! but the military was nothing if not guide by a proper goverment! that is the problem in Black marsh

      A prepared millitary isn't strong, it's prepared.


      The Argonians knew the Oblivion Crisis would occur, they knew where the gates would appear, they were prepared, the other races were taken by surprise.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Minecraft Dragonboy 99 wrote:

      not at all! their military was strong! i mean look at the oblivion crisis! but the military was nothing if not guide by a proper goverment! that is the problem in Black marsh

      A prepared millitary isn't strong, it's prepared.


      The Argonians knew the Oblivion Crisis would occur, they knew where the gates would appear, they were prepared, the other races were taken by surprise.

      yes, this proves the hist might constantly be involved in the military operations and even if they dont the hist might still assit them if tthey go to war. now what i am saying, let me rephrase the military has manpower and info, it does not mean it is strong as they got no one to guide them.

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    • Minecraft Dragonboy 99 wrote:

      yes, this proves the hist might constantly be involved in the military operations and even if they dont the hist might still assit them if tthey go to war. now what i am saying, let me rephrase the military has manpower and info, it does not mean it is strong as they got no one to guide them.

      The Argonians aren't strong, not in the slightest.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Minecraft Dragonboy 99 wrote:

      yes, this proves the hist might constantly be involved in the military operations and even if they dont the hist might still assit them if tthey go to war. now what i am saying, let me rephrase the military has manpower and info, it does not mean it is strong as they got no one to guide them.

      The Argonians aren't strong, not in the slightest.


      I dont know if you know but before the oblivion crisis, the Hist trees modified their sap so that it made the Argonians strong and beeafy, and there is no prove that the sap went back to normal. also the argonian military is almost almost never mentioned so there is no way to know if the argonian military is weak! all prove points toward it being strong but not strategiclly or politicaly.

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    • Minecraft Dragonboy 99 wrote:

      I dont know if you know but before the oblivion crisis, the Hist trees modified their sap so that it made the Argonians strong and beeafy, and there is no prove that the sap went back to normal. also the argonian military is almost almost never mentioned so there is no way to know if the argonian military is weak! all prove points toward it being strong but not strategiclly or politicaly.

      Argonians aren't strong without buffs.


      But this is getting off topic.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Minecraft Dragonboy 99 wrote:

      I dont know if you know but before the oblivion crisis, the Hist trees modified their sap so that it made the Argonians strong and beeafy, and there is no prove that the sap went back to normal. also the argonian military is almost almost never mentioned so there is no way to know if the argonian military is weak! all prove points toward it being strong but not strategiclly or politicaly.

      Argonians aren't strong without buffs.


      But this is getting off topic.


      buffs are temporary. the hist sap stayed the same making it part of the argonian life.

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    • But this is getting off topic.

      Agreed.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:

      But this is getting off topic.

      Agreed.


      sorry, whenever i am in a verbal fight or discution i really dont stop until i win or i lose and there is now way i can get back, back to the topic at hand!

        Loading editor
    • Minecraft Dragonboy 99 wrote:


      sorry, whenever i am in a verbal fight or discution i really dont stop until i win or i lose and there is now way i can get back, back to the topic at hand!

      If you wish to continue, you could create a new thread, and, upon creating it, inform me on my talkpage.

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
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