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  • I've noticed an overwhelming sentiment within these forums that the Empire is the way of the future. I disagree.

    But the Stormcloaks are racists! No they're not. They're nationalists. There are racists in Windhelm, two by my count, but neither of them seem to be Stormcloaks. Ulfric brought a bunch of Dunmer refugees into his city rather than turn them away. Maybe the Grey Quarter is a slum, but what is Ulfric supposed to do - give them all nice houses and a bunch of gold? As for the Argonians and Kah-jeet, I'm not sure I'd be eager to let walking/talking cats and lizards into my home either (especially the Kah-jeet, who have proven themselves time and time again to be criminals, drug addicts, and thieves).

    But Ulfric is a Thalmor agent! No he's not. The Thalmor consider him an 'asset' (and an unwilling one to boot), but that same document everyone references also states that the Thalmor are against either side prevailing in the Rebellion. They understand that if the Stormcloaks secure a quick victory it would be that much more difficult for the Dominion. Skyrim and Cyrodill, without Civil War, regardless of the 'victor', is a stronger Skyrim and Cyrodill, even seperate.

    If Skyrim rebels it weakens the Empire! So? I've got news for you - the 'Empire' is over. They've lost most of their provinces and the whole thing is crumbling. Skyrim is perfectly capable of standing on its own. What people seem to miss is that Skyrim gaining independence doesn't automatically make them enemies with Cyrodill. They can still be friends, trade, and even fight against the Dominion together. Kind of like America and England.

    But Ulfric is an egomaniac! Yeah, probably. But at least he's got a spine. Looking around at the other Jarls, I don't see much in the way of effective leadership. Most of them are complete tools or puppets, with the one exception being Balgruuf in Whiterun, but he's a little indecisive and wishy-washy. If Elisif was made High Queen she would be dancing on the strings of the Imperials, who are (understandably) going to serve their own interests at the expense of Skyrim. She has shown that she cares for the people, but has also demonstrated absolutely no backbone when it comes to her bureaucracy.

    If Skyrim become independent, they'll have a whole host of problems. They'll need to come up with things like their own currency, which will cause temporary economic havoc. They'll need to fill the vacuum created by the absence of the East Empire trading company. They'll need to form a cohesive military. And, ultimately, they'll have to figure out how to deal with the Aldmeri Dominion. But they can do all of these things. The Nords have done it before. Hell, the Nords invented the Empire. They can do it again.

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    • Frozenhero1 wrote:
      I've noticed an overwhelming sentiment within these forums that the Empire is the way of the future. I disagree.

      But the Stormcloaks are racists! No they're not. They're nationalists. There are racists in Windhelm, two by my count, but neither of them seem to be Stormcloaks. Ulfric brought a bunch of Dunmer refugees into his city rather than turn them away. Maybe the Grey Quarter is a slum, but what is Ulfric supposed to do - give them all nice houses and a bunch of gold? As for the Argonians and Kah-jeet, I'm not sure I'd be eager to let walking/talking cats and lizards into my home either (especially the Kah-jeet, who have proven themselves time and time again to be criminals, drug addicts, and thieves).

      Ulfric is VERY nacionalistic but his followers are all racists (exept Ralof and Solaf). Galmar and his brother are the worst kind. As for the Dark Elves, they are refugees and I agree refugees shouldnt demand, but don't you think the guards and by extension the Jarl could do a bit more about the drunk who rounds up Stormcloak supporters and physically bullies the Dark Elves? The same guy who walks up and down the Gray Quarter threatening violence? At least with Brunwulf he starts a dialog with them to find out what their needs are. And you spoke like a true Stormcloak when you said you don't want "cats and lizard" in your city. "Skyrim belongs to the Nords” sounds pretty catchy, patriotic and sense-of-belonging enough, cool if you are a Nord, but it also means "Skyrim belongs to nobody else".

      But Ulfric is a Thalmor agent! No he's not. The Thalmor consider him an 'asset' (and an unwilling one to boot), but that same document everyone references also states that the Thalmor are against either side prevailing in the Rebellion. They understand that if the Stormcloaks secure a quick victory it would be that much more difficult for the Dominion. Skyrim and Cyrodill, without Civil War, regardless of the 'victor', is a stronger Skyrim and Cyrodill, even seperate.

      I want to get the line from the Thalmor Dossier - Ulfric Stormcloak "A Stormcloak victory is also to be avoided, however, so even indirect aid to the Stormcloaks must be carefully managed." The Thalmor are USING the Stormcloaks! This is very clear in the line "Ulfric's death would have dramatically increased the chance of an Imperial victory and thus harmed our overall position in Skyrim". If the Empire are working for the Thalmor, why would an Imperial victory in Skyrim be a hindrance to them? I do not think that Ulfric is a Thalmor agent, but, rather, that he is a tool in their dissolution of mankind. Ulfric is distracting and shrinking the Empire. Although he is not directly working for the Thalmor, he is ultimately becoming a useful playing piece in their conquest. Ulfric is pretty much handing the Empire on a silver platter to the Thalmor.

      If Skyrim rebels it weakens the Empire! So? I've got news for you - the 'Empire' is over. They've lost most of their provinces and the whole thing is crumbling. Skyrim is perfectly capable of standing on its own. What people seem to miss is that Skyrim gaining independence doesn't automatically make them enemies with Cyrodill. They can still be friends, trade, and even fight against the Dominion together. Kind of like America and England.

      Losing Skyrim splits the imperial forces, cuts supply lines and all around makes everyone more vulnerable. If Cyrodiil falls because of lack of resources and men, that puts the Dominion right at Skyrim's front door, with nothing but ex-legionaries and civilians who took up the sword to defend her. On top of all that an independant Skyrim would just brag to the Dominion they're back to worshipping Talos openly, and if you subscribe to the idea the Thalmor are trying to destroy the towers and eradicate men, where do you think they'll turn their attentions to? After the civil war, they would be far too weak to defend themselves alone, since no one is coming to their rescue. It's this type of short sighted thinking that got Skyrim into this civil war to begin with. Also why would the Empire forge an alliance with Skyrim to fight against the Dominion if they lose it in the civil war? They just lost an entire legion to a bunch of pro-Nords barbarians yelling about how they want to kill imperials dogs, the wounds would be too fresh to even think of an alliance.

      But Ulfric is an egomaniac! Yeah, probably. But at least he's got a spine. Looking around at the other Jarls, I don't see much in the way of effective leadership. Most of them are complete tools or puppets, with the one exception being Balgruuf in Whiterun, but he's a little indecisive and wishy-washy. If Elisif was made High Queen she would be dancing on the strings of the Imperials, who are (understandably) going to serve their own interests at the expense of Skyrim. She has shown that she cares for the people, but has also demonstrated absolutely no backbone when it comes to her bureaucracy.

      If Ulfric got a spine, he would fight against the Thalmor. But no, it's totally the Empire who's the disgusting ones here. If you finished the civil war to both Imperials and Stormcloaks, honestly go to each hold capitol city, and speak to each Jarl. Listen to how they now speak of Skyrim. All the Stormcloak Jarls speak of is just anti-Empire, pro-Nord, racist towards all elves or just this short sighted bitterness. Almost all of the Imperial appointed Jarls talk about rebuilding, making Skyrim great, amending past mistakes, and preparing to fight the Thalmor. The only thing I agree here is Elisif doesn't deserve to be High Queen, but Ulfric doesn't deserve to be High King either.

      If Skyrim become independent, they'll have a whole host of problems. They'll need to come up with things like their own currency, which will cause temporary economic havoc. They'll need to fill the vacuum created by the absence of the East Empire trading company. They'll need to form a cohesive military. And, ultimately, they'll have to figure out how to deal with the Aldmeri Dominion. But they can do all of these things. The Nords have done it before. Hell, the Nords invented the Empire. They can do it again.

      Skyrim has been a major part of the Empire for centuries. It's not as if being independent would mean the economy will transition smoothly. A lot of the business owners are imperial aligned. A lot of rules changes, taxes change, anyone trading with Skyrim would no longer be trading with the Empire, it'd be trading with a foreign power, which is fine for places like Morrowind where the Empire was a foreign power, but if they were already trading with Skyrim and suddenly the taxes change, get raised, or imperial protection disappears, land owners change, there are tons we can't even speculate on. The bottom line is Skyrim's entire economy is based within the Empire, and if they leave there’s a huge period of confusion followed by taxes and new contracts. And Skyrim isn’t rich with tons of resources that make it self sustaining while it's transitioning to independence. As for the military, you're discounting the fact Ulfric himself says the Stormcloaks cannot fight the entire Empire in an open invasion. Should you attempt to attack Solitude while the Dark Brotherhood quest "Bound Unitl Death" is active, you're met with this direct quote from Ulfric: "We're ready to march on Solitude, but the Emperor's cousin is getting married! If royal blood was spilt, all of Cyrodiil would be up in arms. We can't afford an all out war with the Empire. So we'll bide our time for now." If he admits he couldn't face a full invasion from the Empire, what real chance does he have against the Dominion (who I might also add, includes forces from Summerset Isle, Valenwood and Elsweyr)?

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    • I don't buy the argument that a unified Empire is the 'only hope against the Dominion'. The Redguards have held them back, and the Nords are every bit as dangerous as the men and women of Hammerfell. As for Valenwood and Elsweyr, my guess is they're as likely to revolt as Skyrim was.

      The Dominion isn't this all-powerful, unstoppable force capable of conquering Tamriel. If they were, they would have done it. They have a lot of enemies, both at home and abroad. Invading Skyrim would be extremely unwise - it's the province furthest from the Dominion's center of power, and the Nords excell at guerilla warfare on their home turf.

      The Empire is a crumbling shell of its former self, with weak Emperors and no more provinces in which to even call themselves an 'Empire' - especially if they lose Skyrim. Like the Romans they are based on, their dominance over Tamriel is at at end. Skyrim has a chance to carve out its own identity, a country whose people are free to embrace their culture and worship who they choose.

      "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" does not mean no one else is welcome, it means Skyrim and her customs are not up for debate. They will not allow the Dominion, or the Empire, or anyone else tell them that Talos, their man-god, is not a divine. It means Skyrim is the birthplace of man and deeply rooted with history. Yes, there is a lingering societal prejudice against the elves. Wars have been fought against them since the first era. "The Great War is still fresh in the minds of many." Yet, elves are found throughout Skyrim. There are no laws against elves. There isn't any ethnic cleansing going on. You don't see Nords walking the roads escorting elven prisoners. The elves of Skyrim aren't told who they can or can't worship. They aren't prevented from prospering. There are elven merchents, guildmasters, housecarls, stewards, and priests. Hell, there's even an elven Companion - a group whose founder tried to eradicate the elves. The Nords have become among the most accepting of other races and cultures - they don't even ban necromancy! They just don't want other races and cultures telling them they can't be Nords.

      Ulfric wants to stand up and fight against tyrrany. He's a strong, capable leader that isn't willing to sacrafice his principles against threats or offers of gold. He's a dedicated man with will and patience enough to learn how to shout in the language of dragons. He has known war, imprisonment, and loss - he doesn't want those things for his people. He's not perfect, but I think he's a better choice than the Empire and General Tulius, a man who shows little respect for Nordic culture who seems dedicated to go down with the sinking ship that is the Cyrodillic Empire.

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    • I've always thought of the Empire as good people who know what their doing and what to do. I've always thought of the Stormcloaks as racist rebels who are only rebelling for themselves. This thread changed my view on this. Although I have to disagree on how the Aldmeri Dominion arent extremely powerful. They are. If the races of men dont step up their game, the Dominion might eventually take over. The Empire just barely got out of the Great War, and they sacrificed their freedom to worship who they want in the process.

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    • Frozenhero1 wrote:
      I don't buy the argument that a unified Empire is the 'only hope against the Dominion'. The Redguards have held them back, and the Nords are every bit as dangerous as the men and women of Hammerfell. As for Valenwood and Elsweyr, my guess is they're as likely to revolt as Skyrim was.

      Have you ever heard of that quote "united we stand, divided we fall"? Also the only reason that Hammerfell won against the Dominion was because the bulk/main forces of the Dominion were in Cyrodiil fighting, the Redguards put their civil war on hold and fought together and the Redguards knew the land better. It wasn't some grand victory that proved one small nation could easily defeat the Dominion, if it were that easy, Hammerfell could have just kept going and fought the elves all the way back to the Summerset Isle, instead of signing their own peace treaty. People blindly assume that just because Hammerfell won 1 victory that somehow means the Dominion can be easily defeated. "Hammerfell did it, so can Skyrim!" isn’t a valid argument without seeing the bigger picture.

      The Dominion isn't this all-powerful, unstoppable force capable of conquering Tamriel. If they were, they would have done it. They have a lot of enemies, both at home and abroad. Invading Skyrim would be extremely unwise - it's the province furthest from the Dominion's center of power, and the Nords excell at guerilla warfare on their home turf.

      The elves are weakened somewhat after the Great War yes, but they are still a force to be reckoned with, and not to mention they have the Wood Elves AND the Khajiits to call on as well! It's not just everyone Vs Summerset Isles. And if the Dominion isn't this all-powerful, unstoppable force capable of conquering Tamriel, then there wouldn’t be a second Great War coming soon, or hell, there wouldn’t even be a cold war going on right now between the Empire and the Dominion.

      The Empire is a crumbling shell of its former self, with weak Emperors and no more provinces in which to even call themselves an 'Empire' - especially if they lose Skyrim. Like the Romans they are based on, their dominance over Tamriel is at at end. Skyrim has a chance to carve out its own identity, a country whose people are free to embrace their culture and worship who they choose.

      If this Empire falls, another one will take its place. An Elder Scrolls game is incomplete without the Empire.

      "Skyrim belongs to the Nords!" does not mean no one else is welcome, it means Skyrim and her customs are not up for debate. They will not allow the Dominion, or the Empire, or anyone else tell them that Talos, their man-god, is not a divine. It means Skyrim is the birthplace of man and deeply rooted with history. Yes, there is a lingering societal prejudice against the elves. Wars have been fought against them since the first era. "The Great War is still fresh in the minds of many." Yet, elves are found throughout Skyrim. There are no laws against elves. There isn't any ethnic cleansing going on. You don't see Nords walking the roads escorting elven prisoners. The elves of Skyrim aren't told who they can or can't worship. They aren't prevented from prospering. There are elven merchents, guildmasters, housecarls, stewards, and priests. Hell, there's even an elven Companion - a group whose founder tried to eradicate the elves. The Nords have become among the most accepting of other races and cultures - they don't even ban necromancy! They just don't want other races and cultures telling them they can't be Nords.

      If the Nords have become among the most accepting of other races and cultures, then explain to me why the Stormcloaks don't buy stuffs from Adrianne and Arcadia? Let me guess, these women are Imperials, not Nords because if they were Nords, the Stormcloaks would buy from them.

      Ulfric wants to stand up and fight against tyrrany. He's a strong, capable leader that isn't willing to sacrafice his principles against threats or offers of gold. He's a dedicated man with will and patience enough to learn how to shout in the language of dragons. He has known war, imprisonment, and loss - he doesn't want those things for his people. He's not perfect, but I think he's a better choice than the Empire and General Tulius, a man who shows little respect for Nordic culture who seems dedicated to go down with the sinking ship that is the Cyrodillic Empire.

      While we can all agree fighting against tyranny is a noble pursuit, Ulfric could have fought specifically the Thalmor if that’s all he wanted. But no, it's totally the Empire who's the disgusting ones here. The Empire didn’t ban the worship of Talos, the Thalmor did, there's a huge difference there. It wasn’t the Empire's idea. Speaking of it, can you tell me the difference between the Thalmor and the Empire? They're not the same faction, they don't work together, they don't make plans together and they don't even share the field of battle. You are attaching things you hate about the Thalmor to the Empire and this is isn't fair. The Thalmor are the ones who are torturing people who are worshipping Talos, not the Empire. As for Tullius, initially, yes, Tullius may seem a little cold, but that is hardly an uncommon trait for a man of his position. His role, really, is, first and foremost, to put down the rebellion, which may be why he appears to have such an unrelenting character. You must remember, too, as a Cyrodiil, some of these odd Nordic traditions must be a bit confusing at first. At the end of the civil war quest line for the Empire, if you ask Tullius if he is going to return to Cyrodiil, he says "No, I suspect Skyrim to be my home for many years. Can't say I'll ever get used to the damn cold, or understand these Nords... but I've come to respect them. The harshness of Skyrim has a way of carving a man down to his true self." You see, character progression is often a feature of stories, and the development of Tullius' character is evident. A character cannot do so if they are perfect, and I think Tullius display much more progression than Ulfric does (I've played through both sides of the civil war, so you know, and Ulfric still appears to be as hard headed as ever).

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    • Imagine it's a mythical 1975, thirty years after WWII was a stalemate, and you look out the window of your home and you see three armed German soldiers escorting your bound neighbor down the street. So you call the mayor and you say "Um, what's going on?" and the mayor's office says, "No, it's cool. He's Jewish. Don't you remember? We agreed to outlaw his religion. They're taking him to an interrogation center and will probably kill him. If we don't allow these guys to do whatever they want within our borders, they might attack us again."

      Now imagine you're also Jewish.

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    • If you want to find historical realities within Skyrim, Ulfric Stormcloak is very similar to Hitler; He tries to create a dominant race, segregates certain races and quarantines them in designated areas of cities within his control (Dark Elves live on the Grey Quarter and Argonians live on the Argonian Assemblage), he is great speaker, very persuasive and believes that he and his troops are the true rulers of the country.

      I will also add what every Stormcloak players conveniently forget. OPEN worship of Talos was banned, but not enforced, and wasn’t enforced until Ulfric demanded open worship AND held a city hostage till he got his way, FORCING the Empire bent the knee to the Thalmor's pressure and enforce the ban. This WOULD have been the perfect opportunity for the Stormcloaks to then attack the Thalmor entering Skyrim, thereby forcing the Empire to secede Skyrim and conquer their independence with little loss of life, just like Hammerfell did. Instead, Ulfric, who is acting like a spoiled brat, attacked the Empire. And here we are now.  So, those are my 2 cents. If Ulfric used the Empires' situation in an attempt to rule Skyrim, then he is a selfish man who didn't consider the needs for its people. If Ulfric was really about defending the name of Talos and Nord tradition, he could've taken into use the Dominions' apparent lax watch on Skyrim at the time and prepared an army capable of taking them on in secret. Yet instead chose to wage a pointless war, so he's an idiot and you fully support him.

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    • Frozenhero1 wrote:
      Imagine it's a mythical 1975, thirty years after WWII was a stalemate, and you look out the window of your home and you see three armed German soldiers escorting your bound neighbor down the street. So you call the mayor and you say "Um, what's going on?" and the mayor's office says, "No, it's cool. He's Jewish. Don't you remember? We agreed to outlaw his religion. They're taking him to an interrogation center and will probably kill him. If we don't allow these guys to do whatever they want within our borders, they might attack us again."

      Now imagine you're also Jewish.

      Then you'd better stop being Jewish for the time being.

      Once the cold war ends, boom everything's back to normal.


      The Skyrim civil war in this context is equivalent to the Allied forces bickering among one another because one country accepted a term of surrender or something similar with the Axis that 'Jewish worship is banned'.

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:
      If you want to find historical realities within Skyrim, Ulfric Stormcloak is very similar to Hitler; He tries to create a dominant race, segregates certain races and quarantines them in designated areas of cities within his control (Dark Elves live on the Grey Quarter and Argonians live on the Argonian Assemblage), he is great speaker, very persuasive and believes that he and his troops are the true rulers of the country.

      I think comparing Ulfric to Hitler is off-base, but fair enough - I started it.

      I just fail to see the comparison. Is Ulfric rounding up the Dunmer and putting them into concentration camps? Is his goal to commit genocide against the dark elves? Is he committing inhumane atrocities against them? As far as I can tell, the only thing he did was offer a bunch of refugees a place to live within his (already cramped) city walls. As for the Argonians and Kah-jeet, it's not like he's doing anything out of the norm by not allowing them within Windhelm. How many Argonians or Kah-jeet are wandering around Whiterun? Markarth? Solitude has a couple of Argonians I guess, who also happen to be pretty shady individuals. Riften might be the one exception, and even they tend to keep their Argonians at the docks; none of the city's or towns allow the Kah-jeet caravans in. It seems justified to me, as nearly every Kah-jeet I encounter in the game is either talking about their skooma addiction or wants to train me in pickpocket. The guy at the College of Winterhold is an exception, but even he seems lazy and ready to take shortcuts.

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    • First of all I'm very sorry for the long delay. Personal problems.

      No, Ulfric doesn't round up the Dunmer and putting them into concentration camps, but Hitler had ghettos where he quarantines jewish people, while Ulfric has his Grey Quarter and Argonian Assemblage. Coincidence!? No, Ulfric would never commit inhumane atrocities against Dark Elves but if you ask Galmar about the aim for the war, he says: "First we'll kick the Thalmor and their bloody Imperial puppets out of the country. Then we'll rebuild Skyrim into the land she once was. When we are done with that, we will take our army to the Dominion, and show those pointy-eared bastards not every man is fit to be their slave." Given how he answers the question "do you oppose all non-Nord races?" with "Skyrim is home to MAN", his words here about rebuilding the old Skyrim could be taken to mean many different things, including DOMINANCE over the other races within the borders of Skyrim. For the record I typically play as Khajiit, so yes, a faction of pro-Nords barbarians, who don't answer "no" when asked if they hate non-Nords, gaining more freedom to impose the laws they want, which will no doubt be just pro-Nord ones, would scare me. One more thing, Windhelm is the only city where Argonians can't live inside the city walls. All Argonians and Khajiits are welcome in all cities, expect Khajiits merchants because they are fences and skooma dealers.

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    • The argonians in Riften work at the docks because that is the work they are most suited for and that they want to do, not because they are forced to. The fact that the innkeepers in Riften are argonians speak volumes to them having the freedom to choose other occupations.

      While in windhelm many argonians may still choose to work at the docks,But not all would want to. Yet all but one of the argonians who live in Windhelm are practically confined to the docks. No argonians own property no just within the city, but around it either. All argonians, exept on who works for a farm just outside the city, work for the docks. And they all live in a crowded one room bunk house type building. Think about it, other then the dragonborn, have you actually ever seen any of the argonian dock workers within the city walls? I never have seen it with my own eyes, the only time it can happen as far as I know is during the blood on ice quest when the game randomly selects a female npc with the Windhelm resident tag to be the killers next victim, the game can sometimes select certain female argonians and places her in the market to be attacked. Since none of the argonians ever enter the walls of Windhelm otherwise this is nearly 95% an oversight on the developers end. So in summery while nothing comes right out and screams it the general story and design chooses behind windhelm heavily implies that the agronains and to a lesser degree the Dummer of Windhelm are in fact oppressed.

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    • talos over thalmer! empire being pulled by the string by the thalmer! the rebellion fighting for talos!

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    • In my opinon, the white gold concordat was a blow to both sides. The  aldmeri dominion have the armoury, the weapon, the mages, the warriors, everything needed to get into a continental war (Tamriel is a continent). However, by signing the peace treaty, they can not show signs of agression against anyone living in an Imperial Province, in exchange that they do not worship Talos.

      If Skyrim were to become independent, yes, worshipping Talos would be legal again, however they would be vulnerable to the Dominion's wrath.

      Still, worship of Talos is very important. And yes, I think, that just like the US and England, they can both still be friends through a group that is devoted to stop the Aldmeri (NATO).

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    • Why should Skyrim leave the Empire?

      It shouldn't.  Skyrim alone will never stand a chance against the Dominion.

      Not to mention that Tullius' Legion isn't the only Legion the Empire has left.

      There's absolutely no chance of the Stormcloaks gaining any allies outside of their own Province, either.

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    • Honestly I've been playing Skyrim since it first came out and I still can't decide who it it best to join with. I respect Ulfric and his rebellion, but evidence points that he is a brutal warlord. I also hold loyalty to the empire but find them too content to live on their knees. I have decided to join the empire just because though.

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    • Harkon Romney wrote:
      Honestly I've been playing Skyrim since it first came out and I still can't decide who it it best to join with. I respect Ulfric and his rebellion, but evidence points that he is a brutal warlord. I also hold loyalty to the empire but find them too content to live on their knees. I have decided to join the empire just because though.

      There are a lot of reasons to join the Empire, if you're ever on Google+ you can search for me there (General Decianus) or you can just ask right here.

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    • At the end of the day the Empire needs Skyrim for its manpower. Half of Skyrim will not fight for the Empire anyway, as the damage has already been done by the White-Gold Concordat, irrespective of its legitimacy or the subsequent rebellion. All of Skyrim would fight for her should it become independent; they are defending there own homes. The same cannot be said if the Empire maintained its hold. Therefore the best use of Skyrim's resources is to fight seperately from the Empire, who would otherwise dilute its strength by dressing up unwilling Nords in Imperial armour to fight in Cyrodil. That is why Hammerfell was able to drive out the Thalmor.

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    • Bronkiin wrote:
      At the end of the day the Empire needs Skyrim for its manpower. Half of Skyrim will not fight for the Empire anyway, as the damage has already been done by the White-Gold Concordat, irrespective of its legitimacy or the subsequent rebellion. All of Skyrim would fight for her should it become independent; they are defending there own homes. The same cannot be said if the Empire maintained its hold. Therefore the best use of Skyrim's resources is to fight seperately from the Empire, who would otherwise dilute its strength by dressing up unwilling Nords in Imperial armour to fight in Cyrodil. That is why Hammerfell was able to drive out the Thalmor.

      You do realise that the only reason Hammerfell was able to fight the Aldmeri to a standstill was because of the Imperials, right? Who do Stormcloak supporters rarely see the facts?

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Bronkiin wrote:
      At the end of the day the Empire needs Skyrim for its manpower. Half of Skyrim will not fight for the Empire anyway, as the damage has already been done by the White-Gold Concordat, irrespective of its legitimacy or the subsequent rebellion. All of Skyrim would fight for her should it become independent; they are defending there own homes. The same cannot be said if the Empire maintained its hold. Therefore the best use of Skyrim's resources is to fight seperately from the Empire, who would otherwise dilute its strength by dressing up unwilling Nords in Imperial armour to fight in Cyrodil. That is why Hammerfell was able to drive out the Thalmor.
      You do realise that the only reason Hammerfell was able to fight the Aldmeri to a standstill was because of the Imperials, right? Who do Stormcloak supporters rarely see the facts?

      Wrong the imperials only sent some "invalids"who weren't even the majority of the armies in Hammerfell fighting the Dominion.The Great War book states that Redguards won against the thalmor not imperials.Also the empire betrayed those "invalids" as well with the WGC.

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    • So you a "Skexit"? "Skyxit"? :P

      In all seriousness, I'd much rather both sides of the Civil War understand that all they're doing is playing into the Thalmor's plans to divide humanity. When/if the Dominion is defeated there'd be no more ban on Talos worship, no more Thalmor, and no more reason for Skyrim to rebel anymore. 

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    • 178.128.142.211 wrote: Wrong the imperials only sent some "invalids"who weren't even the majority of the armies in Hammerfell fighting the Dominion.The Great War book states that Redguards won against the thalmor not imperials.Also the empire betrayed those "invalids" as well with the WGC.

      Yes they were, and they had been fighting the Dominion already up until the Battle of the Red Ring, after which their invalids formed the core of the army that drove the Dominion back across the Alik'r Desert, causing a lot of deaths on the side of the Dominion.

      The book doesn't state that the Redguards won, it states that they fought them to a standstill and asked for a treaty.

      The Empire didn't betray anybody, since you can't betray what you own. There wasn't some kind of oath saying We will never sell out your land.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: So you a "Skexit"? "Skyxit"? :P

      In all seriousness, I'd much rather both sides of the Civil War understand that all they're doing is playing into the Thalmor's plans to divide humanity. When/if the Dominion is defeated there'd be no more ban on Talos worship, no more Thalmor, and no more reason for Skyrim to rebel anymore. 

      Well the Empire knows this, all that's left is the Stormcloaks.

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    • "The Empire is what keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim" says the Imperial Officer as ten Thalmor pass by. If the Empire keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim, then why do I see groups of Thalmor on the roads all the damn time.

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    • 76.190.133.241 wrote:
      "The Empire is what keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim" says the Imperial Officer as ten Thalmor pass by. If the Empire keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim, then why do I see groups of Thalmor on the roads all the damn time.

      Actually the line is "The Empire is what's keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim" :P

      I think it means that (apart from the Talos ban) the Dominion's laws and armies are kept south of the border down Summerset way.

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    • Divide et impera.

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    • 76.190.133.241 wrote:
      "The Empire is what keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim" says the Imperial Officer as ten Thalmor pass by. If the Empire keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim, then why do I see groups of Thalmor on the roads all the damn time.


      At first, when I first started playing Skyrim I didn’t understand what "The Empire is what keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim" meant, since the Thalmor are there in Skyrim, until I dived into the lore. What they're saying is an independent Skyrim is inviting the Dominion to invade. The White-Gold Concordat let the Thalmor enter Skyrim without issue, and allows them to enforce it, but it doesn’t give them free reign to just start sacking villages or killing people. The Empire hate the Thalmor just as much as the Stormcloaks do, so "The Empire is what keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim" translates to "If the Empire wasn’t here, you would be fighting a real Thalmor invasion". It makes sense to "play nice" for the time being till a counter offensive can be made.

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:


      At first, when I first started playing Skyrim I didn’t understand what "The Empire is what keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim" meant, since the Thalmor are there in Skyrim, until I dived into the lore. What they're saying is an independent Skyrim is inviting the Dominion to invade. The White-Gold Concordat let the Thalmor enter Skyrim without issue, and allows them to enforce it, but it doesn’t give them free reign to just start sacking villages or killing people. The Empire hate the Thalmor just as much as the Stormcloaks do, so "The Empire is what keeps the Thalmor out of Skyrim" translates to "If the Empire wasn’t here, you would be fighting a real Thalmor invasion". It makes sense to "play nice" for the time being till a counter offensive can be made.

      Invade from where?

      And Hammerfell is free of the imperials and somehow even though the AD is right next door..

      The Thalmor hasn't invaded, so nope thats just mor Mede apologist lies.

      A free Skyrim would be in no real danger from Thalmor invasion

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    • 80.216.218.146 wrote: Invade from where?

      And Hammerfell is free of the imperials and somehow even though the AD is right next door..

      The Thalmor hasn't invaded, so nope thats just mor Mede apologist lies.

      A free Skyrim would be in no real danger from Thalmor invasion

      If the Empire falls, the Dominion will get Cyrodiil, and then be on Skyrim's doorstep. Thus the saying, "The Empire is keeping the Dominion out of Skyrim."

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    • 80.216.218.146 wrote:
      Invade from where?

      And Hammerfell is free of the imperials and somehow even though the AD is right next door..

      The Thalmor hasn't invaded, so nope thats just mor Mede apologist lies.

      A free Skyrim would be in no real danger from Thalmor invasion


      An independent Skyrim would just brag to the Dominion they're back to worshipping Talos openly and if you subscribe to the idea the Thalmor are trying to destroy the towers and stamp out men, where do you think they'll turn their attentions to? After the civil war, they would be far too weak to defend themselves alone, since no one is coming to their rescue. It's this type of short sighted thinking that got Skyrim into this Civil war to begin with. 

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    • The point about Hammerfell holding off the Dominion isn't the same. Hammerfell had peacefully left the Empire and still had nearly all of its soldiers still alive and in support. All trained veterans, most ex-Imperial soldiers.

      The newly-victorious Stormcloaks, however, have far less than half of Skyrim's original army, assuming the soldiers split pretty much 50-50 and then they lost many/most in the battles, and a fair amount of them are just farmers with an axe. The army has no order, either. They have Generals with unspecific roles and a system made of heroic names, but few actual positions.

      *

      Now, the Nazi/Jew comparison was a good point. However, before Ulfric's firestarting, the Thalmor didn't give a raccoon's genetically modified ass about Skyrim. Talos shrines everywhere, despite the twenty of Talos being outlawed, half the Imerial Legion worshipping Talos and their superiors either joining in or going mysteriously deaf.

      *

      Ulfric is, in my occasionally humble opinion, often an absolute - ... um, bad person. So are most of the other Stormcloaks with character.

      Racism: He does nothing - and neither do his guards, or anyone - about the constant abuse of the Dunmer in the city. The intimidation, threats, drunken insults, etc. He ignores the bandits who prey on non-Nords and non-Men and refers to the Snow Quarter as the Grey Quarter, effectively a racial slur. On the topic of High Rock not joining the war, Galmar announces "Those milk-drinkers? Might as well be elves. Think they're better than us.", which raises no question from Ulfric, despite the call of being an Elf being bad, and all elves think they're better than them. While he allows the Dunmer refuge, he bans Argonians and the Khajiit from the cities, forcing the Argonians into the Argonian Assembalage. Not the Homeless Shelter, or anything like that.

      Traditions: He claims to respect traditions and the Nordic way, yet when there's a chance this is not good for him, shouts to "Damn the Jarls!" and "Damn the Moot!" The only reason he wants a Moot is so that people respect his position. If not, he would be willing to scrap the Moot entirely and prance off.

      I suppose he has some good speeches, and the line, "Legends don't burn down villages," gave me some respect, but being occasionally badass doesn't make you right.

      *

      Skyrim is not used to leading itself. It may be able to, but with a fair bit of the population dead, bandits at an all-time high, a few dragons still flying around and its High King being an ex-Soldier who has spent most of his life in prison. I would assume most of the intelligent and educated of Skyrim are with the Empire, having been taught by better schools in Cyrodiil. This makes getting their affairs in order harder.

      Trade with Morrowind will be pointless; there's so little there and the Dunmer-Nord relations aren't the best. Trade with Cyrodiil and High Rock will be practically impossible. Trade with Hammerfell will be likely, but Hammerfell is barren, for the most part, and has little to trade. Black Marsh is too far away and has too much disease. The Dominion is really likely, all trade will be with them too far away. Possibly some other problems.

      *

      "A united Empire is better for everybody," 

      I firmly believe that if Skyrim left, the Dominion would continue to squeeze the Empire harder and harder, all while bolstering their ranks. The Empire would have no chance, weak as it is, but to agree, to pay the Thalmor in soldiers, supplies and shinies. The Empire would have no opportunity to resist as thousands, millions, (the info on the Empire size is sketchy at best) starved and arrested, tortured and killed. High Rock would likely leave, peacefully now, since the Empire is struggling to pay the Thalmor. The Empire would be unable to resist the Thalmor entering the land and preparing for battle against Skyrim and/or Hammerfell, with many of their soldiers amonst them.

      Skyrim may well make an Alliance with Hammerfell, possibly even High Rock. After the above happens, they may even defeat the Thalmor, eventually. Who knows, there may be rebellion in a Dominion province, or Morrowind or Black Marsh may join them. Unlikely, since Morrowind will likely be sour towards Ulfric, and is too weak to help anyway. Black Marsh may, but I doubt it. In the unlikely event that the Thalmor lose, or a stalemate is reached, what then? The Thalmor are stalled again, and Tamriel has once again been ravaged by war. These new countries, just getting on their feet, are shaken to the core and the Thalmor likely hold much of Cyrodiil. The catastrophic loss of life in both the years of Thalmor reign and the war is the price to be paid, it seems. More likely is that the Thalmor win, and then fall apart from the size of their Empire, with even more loss of life and many years of subjugation. But it's OK, because "at least he's got a spine". 

      :P

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    • Pelagius the Geek wrote:

      Skyrim may well make an Alliance with Hammerfell

      I seriously doubt it, since 1. Skyrim holds a few cities of Hammerfell, Dragonstar and Elinhir to be specific. Knowing how hissy the Redguards get when someone holds their land, they would not like Skyrim, especially now that the Crowns and Forebears are good allies. 

      2. Skyrim is still at war with the Empire, Hammerfell wouldn't wage war on the Empire because Skyrim wants it, a war with the Empire would also seriously cut off Hammerfell's resources from the East Empire Company, true, they get trade with Skyrim in return, but really, whose trade do you think is more useful? A massive company, or a country, weak from rebellion and economically poor?

      3. The main reason why I don't think an alliance would occur, is that the Redguards acknowledge that the Empire is needed to defeat the Dominion. 

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    • Skyrim holds Redguard lands? Huh. Source?

      Well, it would depend how at war with the Empire Skyrim was. I always assumed that after Skyrim was won, war with the Empire stopped and they gave up. The point about the EEC is good, though. 

      I suppose it would depend on how willing the Empire was to help and be helped by Hammerfell.

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    • Pelagius the Geek wrote:
      Skyrim holds Redguard lands? Huh. Source?

      Well, it would depend how at war with the Empire Skyrim was. I always assumed that after Skyrim was won, war with the Empire stopped and they gave up. The point about the EEC is good, though. 

      I suppose it would depend on how willing the Empire was to help and be helped by Hammerfell.

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/War_of_Bend'r-Mahk

      Dragonstar is seperated in two parts though.


      If the Empire stopped the war, they'd get a revolution amongst the Legion itself, nobody in Cyrodiil would be okay with Skyrim cutting of a source of their income and troops, while also killing off an experienced General.


      Hammerfell acknowledges the Empire is needed, it's said in The Great War.

      'The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. -The Great War

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    • I'm fairly certain that's saying it used to be like that. Hammerfell would still hold that same grudge, but it doesn't seem to say it's still happening - and with little mention of it in-game, as well. But your point is still right.

      Perhaps you're right, but if that was the case, they would put the soldiers in before Solitude was taken, not after. The way it's portrayed in-game is that they are trying to hold onto Skyrim, and it would make no sense to wait until they'd lost Skyrim before putting more soldiers in.

      This is claiming that, twenty years ago, they didn't need to sign the peace treaty and could have defeated the Thalmor. That's very different to saying that now, the Empire is needed to defeat the Thalmor, especially now the Empire is far weaker (in the case that Skyrim rebels). 

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    • Pelagius the Geek wrote:
      I'm fairly certain that's saying it used to be like that. Hammerfell would still hold that same grudge, but it doesn't seem to say it's still happening - and with little mention of it in-game, as well. But your point is still right.

      Perhaps you're right, but if that was the case, they would put the soldiers in before Solitude was taken, not after. The way it's portrayed in-game is that they are trying to hold onto Skyrim, and it would make no sense to wait until they'd lost Skyrim before putting more soldiers in.

      This is claiming that, twenty years ago, they didn't need to sign the peace treaty and could have defeated the Thalmor. That's very different to saying that now, the Empire is needed to defeat the Thalmor, especially now the Empire is far weaker (in the case that Skyrim rebels). 

      I like to believe that as long as there isn't something new stated, the previous still stands. 

      The Empire believes that Skyrim isn't a serious threat, hence why it's just a 'sideshow to the people of Cyrodiil' according to Tullius. Once Skyrim is lost, however, that changes. 

      Same as my first argument.

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    • Skyrim is a backwater province so I don't even see why the Empire would want it so badly. I also hate to see another big Empire. It's not up to Imperials to tell Nords what they should believe, nor is it their business to rule the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, or Elsweyr. I sure hope the next TES isn't about bringing the Empire back to its former state as that would be a huge dissappointment to me and Imperial bias. I support the Stormcloak sentiment. Hammerfall managed to halt the Thalmor and that brings hope to others. The Imperials think their ways are the only way and I'm glad they got a beating.

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    • Serpentiz wrote:
      Skyrim is a backwater province so I don't even see why the Empire would want it so badly. I also hate to see another big Empire. It's not up to Imperials to tell Nords what they should believe, nor is it their business to rule the Summerset Isles, Valenwood, or Elsweyr. I sure hope the next TES isn't about bringing the Empire back to its former state as that would be a huge dissappointment to me and Imperial bias. I support the Stormcloak sentiment. Hammerfall managed to halt the Thalmor and that brings hope to others. The Imperials think their ways are the only way and I'm glad they got a beating.

      Skyrim isn't a backwater province, it's a source of soldiers.


      The Empire never tells the Nords what they should believe, the Nords just went and adapted to Imperial tradition.


      It is their business, for the Empire rules in a just and peaceful manner.


      'And Imperial bias' I don't think you know what bias is.


      You shouldn't support the Stormcloaks, they are wrong.


      Hammerfell was only able to do that because the Empire was at peace with the Dominion, Hammerfell also acknowledges that the Empire is needed to defeat the Dominion.


      No the Imperials don't think that, they even allow their member states to keep their own cultures.

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    • I don't like the Imperialist mindset so I symphatize with the Stormcloaks. 'Wrong' according to you yes, that's fine with me. There's an argument both ways and who is wrong depends on what you tend to emphasize.

      I mentioned Imperial bias in the context of a possible story of a new TES game. Humans conquoring elven provinces is similar to the Thalmor, although the reasons behind it may be different. Tiber Septim is a hero to humans, but not to elves.

      You saying an argument is wrong shows you have a bias, as do we here to some extent. There is no objective argument on either side here.

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    • Serpentiz wrote:
      I don't like the Imperialist mindset so I symphatize with the Stormcloaks. 'Wrong' according to you yes, that's fine with me. There's an argument both ways and who is wrong depends on what you tend to emphasize.

      I mentioned Imperial bias in the context of a possible story of a new TES game. Humans conquoring elven provinces is similar to the Thalmor, although the reasons behind it may be different. Tiber Septim is a hero to humans, but not to elves.

      You saying an argument is wrong shows you have a bias, as do we here to some extent. There is no objective argument on either side here.

      The mindset of If you're not with me you're against me is liked more by you than Everyone is equal?


      That doesn't make it Imperial bias.


      No, it doesn't show bias, it shows that the argument is wrong.

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    • @Jauffre:  "...the city of Dragonstar itself was split into two with the eastern part being controlled by Nords and western part being controlled by the Redguards. This split would continue until the Fourth Era." That, I think, means that it is no longer in effect. Unless the split ended and Hammerfell was given to an entirely different province (for no real reason), either Redguards own it or Nords do. I would expect it to be mentioned, or Dragonstar to be visitable, since it's right next to Skyrim. It would be especially important considering the Civil War - surely the sides would be warring over it as well?

      Surely that would change once the Stormcloaks owned all but one (possibly all but two, if you really wanna count Dragonstar) cities? Plus, if they kow the Stormcloaks can take all of Skyrim, surely they could defend it against a dying Empire.

      Eh, maybe.

      What have you done? I sound like a Stormcloak myself!? 

      (Serp, an argument can be wrong. The argument that the Imperials are right because Tullius is grey-haired is wrong, for example. It's not bias to say that.)

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      Serpentiz wrote:
      I don't like the Imperialist mindset so I symphatize with the Stormcloaks. 'Wrong' according to you yes, that's fine with me. There's an argument both ways and who is wrong depends on what you tend to emphasize.

      I mentioned Imperial bias in the context of a possible story of a new TES game. Humans conquoring elven provinces is similar to the Thalmor, although the reasons behind it may be different. Tiber Septim is a hero to humans, but not to elves.

      You saying an argument is wrong shows you have a bias, as do we here to some extent. There is no objective argument on either side here.

      The mindset of If you're not with me you're against me is liked more by you than Everyone is equal?


      That doesn't make it Imperial bias.


      No, it doesn't show bias, it shows that the argument is wrong.

      I've no idea how you could read that from my post. Everyone is equal only works if you let every race have their own customs and religious beliefs in their own lands. The Imperials don't respect that.

      You prefer the Imperials, I have sympathy for the Stormcloaks. I am not convinced by the Imperial arguments. It all lies on the premise that it's good to obey now because we may have a better chance in the future. You either like that mindset or you don't. Imperial sympathisers do and Stormcloaks don't. There's no objective right or wrong here.

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    • Serpentiz wrote:

      I've no idea how you could read that from my post. Everyone is equal only works if you let every race have their own customs and religious beliefs in their own lands. The Imperials don't respect that.

      You prefer the Imperials, I have sympathy for the Stormcloaks. I'm not going to go back and forth in a 'you're wrong I'm right' game.

      Yes they do, but when you adapt to their culture, they don't want you to go and rebel because you change it.


      And why is that?

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    • Pelagius the Geek wrote:

      Skyrim may well make an Alliance with Hammerfell, possibly even High Rock. After the above happens, they may even defeat the Thalmor, eventually. Who knows, there may be rebellion in a Dominion province, or Morrowind or Black Marsh may join them. Unlikely, since Morrowind will likely be sour towards Ulfric, and is too weak to help anyway. Black Marsh may, but I doubt it. In the unlikely event that the Thalmor lose, or a stalemate is reached, what then? The Thalmor are stalled again, and Tamriel has once again been ravaged by war. These new countries, just getting on their feet, are shaken to the core and the Thalmor likely hold much of Cyrodiil. The catastrophic loss of life in both the years of Thalmor reign and the war is the price to be paid, it seems. More likely is that the Thalmor win, and then fall apart from the size of their Empire, with even more loss of life and many years of subjugation. But it's OK, because "at least he's got a spine". 

      :P

      Like Blademaster Jauffre said Skyrim stole lands from Hammerfell, there's no way they're going to join forces even if both hate the Dominion. High Rock is an imperial province and just because Ulfric is trying to get the Breton's support doesn't mean they're mad at the Empire enough to leave. Morrowind won't stir, likely because the Dominion is far from their borders. Hell, the Dark Elves might even HELP the Dominion to get back at humanity for abandoning them during the Oblivion Crisis, but more likely they'll be neutral to the human/Dominion conflict unless attacked directly. The Argonians never fought against the Dominion and never will, unless they're attacked directly. The only people they've attacked in millenia were the Dark Elves, and that was for revenge for centuries of slavery.

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    • I suppose I must concede; if the Stormcloaks win, Tamriel is even more screwed than I thought it was. By far.

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    • The reason Skyrim should be free is clear: no one should be ruled by another culture. Especially the Nords, a proud warrior people. I'm Brazilian, and more than anyone I do not care for patriotism and nationalism, 'cause this raises ignorance,fear and hate. But what if a foreign country comes and says "that's my land now, obey my rules"? I would certainly join the Stormcloaks. Nords nearly destroyed an entire race before, using 500 men (even if the number isn't correct, this is amazing). I'm shure that an army of angry and strong "viking-like" (sorry for my grammar) warriors could stand and even advance against the Dominion.

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    • 189.58.183.101 wrote:
      The reason Skyrim should be free is clear: no one should be ruled by another culture. Especially the Nords, a proud warrior people. I'm Brazilian, and more than anyone I do not care for patriotism and nationalism, 'cause this raises ignorance,fear and hate. But what if a foreign country comes and says "that's my land now, obey my rules"? I would certainly join the Stormcloaks. Nords nearly destroyed an entire race before, using 500 men (even if the number isn't correct, this is amazing). I'm shure that an army of angry and strong "viking-like" (sorry for my grammar) warriors could stand and even advance against the Dominion.

      The Nords already rule themselves, the Stormcloaks just go against their own traditions because they don't suit them. 


      Skyrim willingly adapted to the Imperial culture after being conqeured.


      We don't know the size of the Falmer, nor if they were a millitary-based society. Don't forget that the Nords and Atmorans were such great warriors thanks to their past. 


      The Dominion could've slaughtered the Empire, including Skyrim, what makes you think Skyrim on its own, with a worse economy, worse soldiers and less provisions, stands a chance at all?

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Skyrim willingly adapted to the Imperial culture after being conquered.

      Actually, Skyrim willingly joined the Empire after a Nord army saw Tiber Septim use his Thu'um during at Sancre Tor. In fact, it was the only province to not be conquered or attacked in any way by the Empire during its rise.

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    • Skyrim is not a poor country as you think. Obviously, Bethesda was based in Scandinavia and culture of its people to create Skyrim and their Nords. You will not find there places like Imperial or Vivec City, major population centers (even if Skyrim has indeed big cities, the Nords are scattered, the majority acting as mercenaries or fighting in the war). The reason Skyrim have joined to the Empire was having Talos recognized as Ysmir. When the Septim dynasty was extinguished, many (in several provinces) saw this as a sign that there was no longer a worthy leader. Since it became part of the Empire, Skyrim had numerous kings who acted just like puppets, being elected by Jarls in the same situation. What would Ysgramor, or Shor himself say about this? The way of a Nord is that the weak should not rule. The Empire is weak. Bethesda itself would not put a civil war in Skyrim if it weren't to implement changes in the geopolitics of Tamriel. Times are changing, the provinces becoming independent again, and the strongest rise from the ashes of an empire which, in my opinion, should never have existed. The Dominion could have prevailed against Cyrodiil, but Stormcloaks struggle with tremendous force (as expected from the best warrior race in Nirn). Besides, observe: the game treats Ulfric as honorable (yet megalomaniac - although I never saw him acting that way) and a respectful herald of the Old Ways, while in the meantime, General Tulius is (never forgeting his abbilities as a great legionaire) totally unaware of the Nordic ways and costumes, even disdaining them sometimes. The Dominion itself is portrayed as antagonist, an all-evil force whose only purpouse is to erase mankind from Nirn. Who do you think Bethesda will support? The race which (by tradition) all men came from and whose chief deity was the God of Men himself, Mighty Shor, or Elves that once slaved weaker nations of men?  The Empire is over, it's the most obvious thing in the game, and the will of the game developers.  

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Actually, Skyrim willingly joined the Empire after a Nord army saw Tiber Septim use his Thu'um during at Sancre Tor. In fact, it was the only province to not be conquered or attacked in any way by the Empire during its rise.

      That was an army of Skyrim, not Skyrim itself. 

      'Septim is opposed on all sides, but never more fiercely than by Hammerfell.' -TESA: Redguard 

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    • 177.204.150.91 wrote:
      Skyrim is not a poor country as you think. Obviously, Bethesda was based in Scandinavia and culture of its people to create Skyrim and their Nords. You will not find there places like Imperial or Vivec City, major population centers (even if Skyrim has indeed big cities, the Nords are scattered, the majority acting as mercenaries or fighting in the war). The reason Skyrim have joined to the Empire was having Talos recognized as Ysmir. When the Septim dynasty was extinguished, many (in several provinces) saw this as a sign that there was no longer a worthy leader. Since it became part of the Empire, Skyrim had numerous kings who acted just like puppets, being elected by Jarls in the same situation. What would Ysgramor, or Shor himself say about this? The way of a Nord is that the weak should not rule. The Empire is weak. Bethesda itself would not put a civil war in Skyrim if it weren't to implement changes in the geopolitics of Tamriel. Times are changing, the provinces becoming independent again, and the strongest rise from the ashes of an empire which, in my opinion, should never have existed. The Dominion could have prevailed against Cyrodiil, but Stormcloaks struggle with tremendous force (as expected from the best warrior race in Nirn). Besides, observe: the game treats Ulfric as honorable (yet megalomaniac - although I never saw him acting that way) and a respectful herald of the Old Ways, while in the meantime, General Tulius is (never forgeting his abbilities as a great legionaire) totally unaware of the Nordic ways and costumes, even disdaining them sometimes. The Dominion itself is portrayed as antagonist, an all-evil force whose only purpouse is to erase mankind from Nirn. Who do you think Bethesda will support? The race which (by tradition) all men came from and whose chief deity was the God of Men himself, Mighty Shor, or Elves that once slaved weaker nations of men?  The Empire is over, it's the most obvious thing in the game, and the will of the game developers.

      Skyrim isn't poor? Falkreath Hold and The Reach have problems with provisions, Haafingar, Eastmarch, Whiterun Hold, The Rift and Hjaalmarch all have light coffers, aka, they are poor. Whiterun and Solitude are major shipping ports, and them being poor says something... Whiterun is even so poor that Balgruuf can barely afford the guard. 


      Electing kings through the Moot has been part of Skyrim for many years.... In fact, the Nordic Empire fell because the Moot didn't choose the right King....


      Skyrim leaving is nonsense, since you can also join the Empire. The Stormcloaks are fighting mere scouts and skirmishers, and they are still not winning whatsoever. They don't stand a chance. 


      Respectful of the Old ways? Let me list a few things that Ulfric has done.

      1. Betrayed the Greybeards.

      2. Betrayed his High King.

      3. Damning the Moot.

      4. Damning the Jarls.

      5. Not puting any faith in the Jagged Crown.

      6. Not worshipping the Nordic Pantheon.

      7. Not accepting that Elisif is High Queen by right.

      Ulfric only respects traditions when they suit him.


      Shor was worshipped by the Nords, so what? The Bretons also had Sheor, the Imperials had Shezzar ,the races of Mer had Lorkhan, the Khajiiti had Lorkhaj, while the Yokudans had Sep. Shor is merely an aspect of the creator of Mundus and it doesn't make the Nords any more right. Not to forget, the Nords aren't the ancestors of the other human races, the Atmorans were, for the most part. Atmorans =/= Nords.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      That was an army of Skyrim, not Skyrim itself. 

      'Septim is opposed on all sides, but never more fiercely than by Hammerfell.' -TESA: Redguard 

      Tiber only started "conquering" provinces after becoming Emperor of Cyrodiil and peacefully annexing Skyrim, after which his first conquest was High Rock. At any rate it's assumed peaceful, since no records exist of Skyrim opposing Tiber after he became Emperor like those that exist for all the other provinces.

      Also, by the time TESA: Redguard starts Tiber has already conquered High Rock+Hammerfell and annexed Skyrim, so "opposed on all sides" is an exaggeration likely made for dramatic effect.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Tiber only started "conquering" provinces after becoming Emperor of Cyrodiil and peacefully annexing Skyrim, after which his first conquest was High Rock. At any rate it's assumed peaceful, since no records exist of Skyrim opposing Tiber after he became Emperor like those that exist for all the other provinces.

      Also, by the time TESA: Redguard starts Tiber has already conquered High Rock+Hammerfell and annexed Skyrim, so "opposed on all sides" is an exaggeration likely made for dramatic effect.

      Skyrim wasn't peacefully annexed, Tiber Septim merely got the army of Skyrim, nothing else. Skyrim didn't join the Empire willingly at all. An army did, but not the province. The High Rock army at Sancre Tor was also beaten, that doesn't mean that High Rock fell to the Empire immediatly afterwards.


      Just because he conqeured them doesn't mean that they support him. Also, in the full context, it shows that that was already proven that a few Kingdoms were conqeured. (He had Argonia prior to Hammerfell).

      'As the Empire of Tiber Septim sweeps through the kingdoms of Tamriel in a glorious faithful conquest. Septim is opposed on all sides, but never more fiercely than by Hammerfell, the ancestral home of the Redguards.'

      Hammerfell was already conqeured at the start of TESA: Redguard, it speaks for all the provinces that Tiber conqeured.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Skyrim wasn't peacefully annexed

      Source? I've found sources for all the other provinces being conquered/fighting Tiber to some extent, but nothing to suggest Skyrim fought Tiber after Sancre Tor.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Source? I've found sources for all the other provinces being conquered/fighting Tiber to some extent, but nothing to suggest Skyrim fought Tiber after Sancre Tor.

      Do you have anything to prove that they joined peacefully? An army joined him, nothing else, we have TESA saying that the Kingdoms of Tamriel opposed Tiber's Empire, so that's what we have to go with.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Do you have anything to prove that they joined peacefully? An army joined him, nothing else, we have TESA saying that the Kingdoms of Tamriel opposed Tiber's Empire, so that's what we have to go with.

      I don't, that's why I'm asking.

      Also, that Redguard thing is a bit "iffy". Tiber was opposed in Hammerfell by a rebel movement due to his double-cross at the Battle of Stros 'Mkai and Richton's brutality as governor, but there's no evidence of any opposition post-conquest in the other provinces, even in the former Dominion provinces. If there was rebellion and unrest "on all sides", you'd think there'd be some evidence of it beyond one line from Redguard.

      Also, it doesn't mention Skyrim specifically, unlike the other provinces to which each has at least one specific mention of opposing Tiber.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      I don't, that's why I'm asking.

      Also, that Redguard thing is a bit "iffy". Tiber was opposed in Hammerfell by a rebel movement due to his double-cross at the Battle of Stros 'Mkai and Richton's brutality as governor, but there's no evidence of any opposition post-conquest in the other provinces, even in the former Dominion provinces. If there was rebellion and unrest "on all sides", you'd think there'd be some evidence of it beyond one line from Redguard.

      Also, it doesn't mention Skyrim specifically, unlike the other provinces to which each has at least one specific mention of opposing Tiber.

      Opposing someone can be done in more ways than just rebellion. Many people opposed Hitler during WW2, but far from all of them joined the resistance or tried anything. 


      But anyway:

      'After he captures the Imperial Throne, Septim finds the initial administration of a fully united Cyrodiil a time-consuming task. He sends the Underking to deal with Imperial expansion into Skyrim and High Rock.' -The Arcturian Heresy

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      But anyway:

      'After he captures the Imperial Throne, Septim finds the initial administration of a fully united Cyrodiil a time-consuming task. He sends the Underking to deal with Imperial expansion into Skyrim and High Rock.' -The Arcturian Heresy

      "Expansion" doesn't mean always conquest. While it's often done by conquest, if a country agrees to join yours then you've expanded without bloodshed (i.e the annexation of Austria in 1936).

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      "Expansion" doesn't mean always conquest. While it's often done by conquest, if a country agrees to join yours then you've expanded without bloodshed (i.e the annexation of Austria in 1936).

      This 'expansion' occured after the Battle of Sancre Tor and it was managed in the same manner as High Rock. It was conquest, there's more evidence for it than anything opposing it.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      This 'expansion' occured after the Battle of Sancre Tor and it was managed in the same manner as High Rock. It was conquest, there's more evidence for it than anything opposing it.

      An ambiguous line from Redguard, but nothing conclusive like what I was hoping for, such as something along the lines of "Skyrim submitted to Imperial rule after being defeated at the Battle of X."

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      An ambiguous line from Redguard, but nothing conclusive like what I was hoping for, such as something along the lines of "Skyrim submitted to Imperial rule after being defeated at the Battle of X."

      'The tale dates to the year 855 of the Second Era, after General Talos had taken the name Tiber Septim and begun his conquest of Tamriel. One of his commanding officers, Beatia of Ylliolos, had been surprised in an ambush while returning from a meeting with the Emperor. She and her personal guard of five soldiers barely escaped, and were separated from their army.' -Ice and Chitin


      'She directed her guard toward a ruined old keep on the frozen isthmus of Nerone, across the bay from Gorvigh Ridge. Jutting out on a promontory of rock, it was like many other abandoned castles in northern Skyrim, remnants of Reman Cyrodiil's protective shield against the continent of Akavir. As they reached their destination and made a fire, they could hear the army of the warchiefs of Danstrar behind them, making camp on the land southwest, blocking the only escape but the sea. The soldiers assessed the stock of the keep while Beatia looked out to the fog-veiled water through the casements of the ruin.' -Ice and Chitin


      'We won't last long here," Beatia replied. "The Nords know that we'll be vulnerable when night falls, and this old rock won't hold them off. If there's anything in the keep we can use, find it. We have to make it across the ice floe to the Ridge. -Ice and Chitin


      Still trying to deny it?

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      'The tale dates to the year 855 of the Second Era, after General Talos had taken the name Tiber Septim and begun his conquest of Tamriel. One of his commanding officers, Beatia of Ylliolos, had been surprised in an ambush while returning from a meeting with the Emperor. She and her personal guard of five soldiers barely escaped, and were separated from their army.' -Ice and Chitin

      'She directed her guard toward a ruined old keep on the frozen isthmus of Nerone, across the bay from Gorvigh Ridge. Jutting out on a promontory of rock, it was like many other abandoned castles in northern Skyrim, remnants of Reman Cyrodiil's protective shield against the continent of Akavir. As they reached their destination and made a fire, they could hear the army of the warchiefs of Danstrar behind them, making camp on the land southwest, blocking the only escape but the sea. The soldiers assessed the stock of the keep while Beatia looked out to the fog-veiled water through the casements of the ruin.' -Ice and Chitin

      'We won't last long here," Beatia replied. "The Nords know that we'll be vulnerable when night falls, and this old rock won't hold them off. If there's anything in the keep we can use, find it. We have to make it across the ice floe to the Ridge. -Ice and Chitin

      Still trying to deny it?

      To quote you:

      "That was an army of Skyrim, not Skyrim itself. "

      It doesn't say who those Nords serve. The "Danstrar" link leads to "Page does not exist". Is Danstrar a rebel? High King of Skyrim? Bandit Lord? Is it a city? It's ambiguous.

      I'm not denying anything, I'm asking for evidence and proposing alternate possibilities. 

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    • Draevan13 wrote: To quote you:

      "That was an army of Skyrim, not Skyrim itself. "

      It doesn't say who those Nords serve. The "Danstrar" link leads to "Page does not exist". Is Danstrar a rebel? High King of Skyrim? Bandit Lord? Is it a city? It's ambiguous.

      I'm not denying anything, I'm asking for evidence and proposing alternate possibilities. 

      So now that it's directly stated that Tiber Septim started his conquest for Tamriel with no mention of Skyrim joining him, but with record of Imperial Forces in Skyrim and the Nords, you're still not thinking like 'Skyrim must've fought'? How much evidence do I need to gather?

      That you don't accept one or two pieces of evidence due to the lack of fighting is understandable, but here, there's mention of warchiefs, in Skyrim, while Tiber started his conquest for Tamriel. It's obvious that Skyrim didn't join willingly.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      How much evidence do I need to gather?

      Evidence that isn't ambiguous.

      The part you quoted from Ice and Chitin doesn't state that those Imperials are part of an invading force, nor who the Nords that they're fighting are.

      Just because the High King agreed to join the Empire doesn't mean all his Jarls did, naturally. This "Danstrar" could be a rebel Jarl that's being fought after Skyrim became part of the Empire. The Imperials could be part of the local legion garrison sent to fight him. 

      But we don't know, because the book is ambiguous.

      I'm not saying you're wrong, in any event. You've convinced me that I was wrong in saying Skyrim joined peacefully by showing me there's no conclusive evidence for my original statement. But so far, the evidence for it being conquered is ambiguous.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Evidence that isn't ambiguous.

      The part you quoted from Ice and Chitin doesn't state that those Imperials are part of an invading force, nor who the Nords that they're fighting are.

      Just because the High King agreed to join the Empire doesn't mean all his Jarls did, naturally. This "Danstrar" could be a rebel Jarl that's being fought after Skyrim became part of the Empire. The Imperials could be part of the local legion garrison sent to fight him. 

      But we don't know, because the book is ambiguous.

      I'm not saying you're wrong, in any event. You've convinced me that I was wrong in saying Skyrim joined peacefully by showing me there's no conclusive evidence for my original statement. But so far, the evidence for it being conquered is ambiguous.

      One of Tiber's commanding officers isn't evidence that he was invading Skyrim?

      There's nothing which states that Skyrim joined the Empire willingly, nor that its High King alligned himself with Septim.

      And how would they be part of a garrison if they have a commanding officer for Tiber's conquest of Tamriel? You don't just put a commanding officer for a continentional war in a garrison, you sent them to the frontlines.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      And how would they be part of a garrison if they have a commanding officer for Tiber's conquest of Tamriel? You don't just put a commanding officer for a continentional war in a garrison, you sent them to the frontlines.

      Good point. But that still doesn't mean a single Nord army is "all of Skyrim." As you yourself stated earlier.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Good point. But that still doesn't mean a single Nord army is "all of Skyrim." As you yourself stated earlier.

      I never claimed it was all of Skyrim.


      Or are you referring to the Battle of Sancre Tor? 

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      I never claimed it was all of Skyrim.

      Or are you referring to the Battle of Sancre Tor? 

      Currently I'm referring to the battle/skirmish or whatever it was described in Ice and Chitin.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Currently I'm referring to the battle/skirmish or whatever it was described in Ice and Chitin.

      I never claimed it was all of Skyrim.


      But it seems highly illogical that 1. There wouldn't be Nords coming to help the Legion and 2. That there was an Imperial Commander in an already Imperial province. It were Nords, and them being at war with Septim adds up to 3 sources, Ice and Chitin, the Arcturian Heresy and TESA: Redguard.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      I never claimed it was all of Skyrim.

      But it seems highly illogical that 1. There wouldn't be Nords coming to help the Legion and 2. That there was an Imperial Commander in an already Imperial province.

      1) If it was an ambush on the road in between cities, the local garrison may not have known what had happened, and 2) The book mentions the Commander is in Skyrim returning from a meeting with Tiber Septim.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      1) If it was an ambush on the road in between cities, the local garrison may not have known what had happened, and 2) The book mentions the Commander is in Skyrim returning from a meeting with Tiber Septim.

      1) Seeing as it seperated the commander from the rest of the Legion, the Legion would've known of an ambush. Why wouldn't they act? War.


      2) Returning to Skyrim from a meeting with the Emperor, Tiber Septim was in Cyrodiil during the entire campaign of both High Rock and Skyrim.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      1) Seeing as it seperated the commander from the rest of the Legion, the Legion would've known of an ambush. Why wouldn't they act? War.

      2) Returning to Skyrim from a meeting with the Emperor, Tiber Septim was in Cyrodiil during the entire campaign of both High Rock and Skyrim.

      1) Again, we don't know that Danstrar speaks for all of Skyrim. Declare war on Skyrim because an unaffiliated rebel or bandit attacked you? And if Skyrim is already part of the Empire, it would make even less sense.

      2) The book doesn't say where Tiber was or where Beatia was heading/coming from, only that she was returning from a meeting with him and ambushed in Northern Skyrim.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      1) Again, we don't know that Danstrar speaks for all of Skyrim. Declare war on Skyrim because an unaffiliated rebel or bandit attacked you? And if Skyrim is already part of the Empire, it would make even less sense.

      2) The book doesn't say where Tiber was or where Beatia was heading/coming from, only that she was returning from a meeting with him and ambushed in Northern Skyrim.

      1) Tiber had already started the war with Skyrim, Danstrar was merely trying to kill an Imperial Commander who tried to conqeur Skyrim. 

      2) The Arcturian Heresy states that Tiber Septim was in Cyrodiil, meaning she came from there.

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    • I've just realised that this is a pretty pointless to be arguing, especially when there's little evidence of it. How or why Skyrim joined the Empire is ultimately irrelevent: in the end, it did.

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    • It's weird how people ignore the fact that Ulfric is incompetent, cowardly and an idiot.:

      Incompetent because he got captured by Tulius 

      Cowardly because he didn't choose to die a martyr when he got captured, also a coward because he used the Shout in a honorable duel.

      An idiot because he thought that by surrendering he and his men (if he eve considered his men) would live for much longer. 

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    • Frozenhero1 wrote: I've noticed an overwhelming sentiment within these forums that the Empire is the way of the future. I disagree.

      But the Stormcloaks are racists! No they're not. They're nationalists. There are racists in Windhelm, two by my count, but neither of them seem to be Stormcloaks. Ulfric brought a bunch of Dunmer refugees into his city rather than turn them away. Maybe the Grey Quarter is a slum, but what is Ulfric supposed to do - give them all nice houses and a bunch of gold? As for the Argonians and Kah-jeet, I'm not sure I'd be eager to let walking/talking cats and lizards into my home either (especially the Kah-jeet, who have proven themselves time and time again to be criminals, drug addicts, and thieves).

      But Ulfric is a Thalmor agent! No he's not. The Thalmor consider him an 'asset' (and an unwilling one to boot), but that same document everyone references also states that the Thalmor are against either side prevailing in the Rebellion. They understand that if the Stormcloaks secure a quick victory it would be that much more difficult for the Dominion. Skyrim and Cyrodill, without Civil War, regardless of the 'victor', is a stronger Skyrim and Cyrodill, even seperate.

      If Skyrim rebels it weakens the Empire! So? I've got news for you - the 'Empire' is over. They've lost most of their provinces and the whole thing is crumbling. Skyrim is perfectly capable of standing on its own. What people seem to miss is that Skyrim gaining independence doesn't automatically make them enemies with Cyrodill. They can still be friends, trade, and even fight against the Dominion together. Kind of like America and England.

      But Ulfric is an egomaniac! Yeah, probably. But at least he's got a spine. Looking around at the other Jarls, I don't see much in the way of effective leadership. Most of them are complete tools or puppets, with the one exception being Balgruuf in Whiterun, but he's a little indecisive and wishy-washy. If Elisif was made High Queen she would be dancing on the strings of the Imperials, who are (understandably) going to serve their own interests at the expense of Skyrim. She has shown that she cares for the people, but has also demonstrated absolutely no backbone when it comes to her bureaucracy.

      If Skyrim become independent, they'll have a whole host of problems. They'll need to come up with things like their own currency, which will cause temporary economic havoc. They'll need to fill the vacuum created by the absence of the East Empire trading company. They'll need to form a cohesive military. And, ultimately, they'll have to figure out how to deal with the Aldmeri Dominion. But they can do all of these things. The Nords have done it before. Hell, the Nords invented the Empire. They can do it again.

      Alright. I will point these with numbers in the reply to make it simple.

      1- Saying that they are not racist is to ignore what the Stormcloaks, as a group, do to these races. In Windhelm, where Ulfric has direct control since he is not the High King yet, the guards do nothing to give protection to the Gray Quarter as it is revealed by Ambarys Rendar (who also says that things got a lot worse since Ulfric took over), and this is clearly shown by how Rolff screams racist words every night there. And about Ulfric letting the dunmer there: no, he didn’t. They were already there before he was even born (the Red Mountain erupted in the very first years of the 4th Era, so the High King at the time gave the Gray Quarter to them). Giving a population a chance to have a better life trough honest work is one thing, completely ignoring such population to the point of doing nothing about racists shouting at them every night is a completely different thing.

      As for the argonians and Khajiit: I agree about not letting the caravans in the city’s walls since they are known for smuggling skooma, but the argonians do not do this and thos eof Windhelm seem to value hardwork (and having scaly skin does not exclude the fact that they are as rational as any nord in the city).

      2- Regardless, the content of the Thalmor Dossier shows that the Civil War, that Ulfric himself started, is weakening both sides and this is why the Dossier says they should intervene, directly or indirectly, when one side is about to win (the content of the Dossier even reveals that they wanted to prevent Ulfric’s execution, a concrete example of how they want the war to go on) and remain hands off as long as the Civil War is on a standstill.

      In other words: no matter if Ulfric is working for the Thalmor or not, he is being played and used just like the imperials thanks to a war that is happening thanks to him.

      3- I kinda talked about it in number 2, but anyway: if this war was not started years ago (Solaf and the father of that deceased Stormcloak Battle Maiden, I forgot his name, reveal that this war has been foing on for years), maybe the empire could have rebuilt itself to the point of already being able to handle the Dominion, but Ulfric’s rebellion made the Empire need to eighter send troops to Skyrim (tough by 4th Era 201 the reinforcements almost stopped, wich Legate Fasendil reveals... clearly because leaving Cyrodiil defenseless would not go unnoticed by the Dominion’s forces) or to spend resources on locally recruited soldiers instead of being able to focus on the Empire’s best men.

      And just to add an important aspect: armor. While we mostly see leather armor on imperials in the vanilla game, Stormcloaks say that “legion soldiers gleam like fresh fallen snow and clank like a kitchen”, wich reveals that most imperials in the lore use plate armor (wich also explains why many Stormcloaks use blunt weapons like maces and hammers, what would be pointless if they were fighting against opponents using only leather armor). The Stormcloaks, however, use a chainmail “shirt” that barely protects their limbs (wixh is why the imperials only carry swords in the Vanilla game, with some TES: Legends cards showing imperials carrying spears)... and some Stormcloaks go to the battlefield without shields (with some TES: Legends cards showing that some fight even without helmets) and I think I do not have to comment about the Stormcloak Officer armor.

      So I think I can say that Skyrim would be far stronger and better with the Empire thanks to the imperials’ better equipment and lack of racism, tough I would not oppose Skyrim’s independence if it was supposed to be a peaceful movement, without weakening any side

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    • I think the provences of the humans meaning Skyrim,Hammerfell,High Rock,and Cyrodel.To combat the domnion and to save the human save the human race from being extermanated.

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    • Its not like that i dont support the Empire but if Skyrim remains independent and stay ALLIES with the empire against the Dominion in case of an invasion they should stay independent, and their strong and usefull soldiers will fight for skyrim and their homeland , being with the empire is like being in an enforced alliance with much negatives, if skyrim is with an alliance with the empire i am tottaly supporting the stormcloaks,but that is unlikely because of their pride, and i dont exept the imperials to do it either after a fresh rebbelion, and of course the nords will keep "flexing" this victory for years to come.I personally want a peacfull resolution but that isnt achievable so...I think it would be wise chose the imprerials as long the dominion still is a threat.And its not like the imprerials are like rome, that everyone expect the romans is something like a barbarian,they are not that bad.They a lot more depth in this topic but its not THAT necesseracy for a casual player of skyrim.

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    • A FANDOM user
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