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  • I've been a Stormcloak from the beginning, but I'd just like to see other opinions or reasons why.

    (My reason is simply that I don't like siding with the people who tried to decapitate me.)

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    • Funny that's the reason i would choose imperials because as the thief in the introduction pointed out if it wasn't for the stormcloaks they wouldn't have tried to execute you. Most arguments for joining the stromcloaks are based of emotion while arguments to stay loyal to the empire are based on reason. I'm a man of reason that's why i would stay loyal to the empire but that's my opinion.

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    • I prefer to join the dark brotherhood

      1. ancientshroudedarmor
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    • I side with the Empire for simple reasons. Joining the Stormcloaks helps the Dominion out more. While the Thalmor Dossier does note that either victory is to be avoided, obviously a Stormcloak one would be more beneficial to them since the Empire, their biggest rival, diminishes.

      The whole point for the war is flawed. It's started over such a stupid issue. The Empire didn't ban Talos worship, the Thalmor did. Ulfric forced their hand when he attacked Markarth. I can't side with a faulty side.

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    • In my opinion, both sides are right, but each one had different agendas. The Stormcloaks are your typical Nords who would rather die with a sword in their hand than retreat, while the Emperials would rather bide their time until they were strong enough to stand up to the Aldmeri dominion. As my username suggests, I support the Aldmeri Dominion. Mer are superior to men.

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    • Thalmor Knight 1 wrote:
      In my opinion, both sides are right, but each one had different agendas. The Stormcloaks are your typical Nords who would rather die with a sword in their hand than retreat, while the Emperials would rather bide their time until they were strong enough to stand up to the Aldmeri dominion. As my username suggests, I support the Aldmeri Dominion. Mer are superior to men.

      I don't like the Thalmor, but I agree with you.

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    • Agreed with all Ottoman said.  I'll add that while the Stormcloak side is the natural side for a freedom of religion kinda guy like me, over time I realized Ullfric is just a Thalmor pawn. Even if the Thalmor no longer control him directly they are still using him to fight their battles.  So either he's stupid and oblivious, or clever and so incredibly egotistical that he thinks he will prevail over the Empire first and the Thalmor second. Frikkin Talos Jr.

      A herd of Bethesdites worked overtime to make the choice as complex and even and dubious as possible, and they largely succeeded.  Thanks to that we can all justify our opinions on the Rorshach blot that is Skyrim. 

      I have not chosen a side yet, a couple years into my first play through.  2 details are pulling me to the Imperial side; they still have the niche ready for the return of the Talos shrine in the Temple of the Divines, and Solitude has a sewer system.  (Try living without it.)  

      But either side as long as I can put the hurt on Forsworn and Thalmor.  Forsworn due to their indiscriminate savagery, and Thalmor... I just can't tolerate their intolerance.   :)

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote: I too believe the Stormcloaks are right. The Imperials are fools. They think that accord with the Thalmor buys them time (allegedly I hear so they can restrengthen before they wage war again) but it only divided the human kingdoms and brewed resentment. It's bad enough they abandoned the redguards and sold their territories to sue for that peace, but to allow the banning of Talos, the only human deity in an essentially foreign pantheon is what breaks any form of fellowship with in the empire. Talos is the only cultural figurehead that banded the human kingdoms together, how does the empire expect to rally the other kingdoms after desecrating their heritage? No, the Stormcloaks will never fall in line with the Empire again (even if they kill Ulfric they'll only create a martyr), neither will the Redguards, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Brentons abandon the empire in time as well. Ulric's nationalism may rub people the wrong way but him fighting for freedom is the symbol the humans need to rally behind, not the false empire. Anyone who doubts Ulfric is an indecisive fool or just a fool. The Imp's politicking fail will lead the human kingdoms to ruin.

      Then there's the matter of Ulfric Stormcloak. Some claim he only started the rebellion so he could be High King and I can tell you nothing can be further from the truth.There are jarls who seek power to enrich only themselves like Siddgeir of Falkreath and there are jarls who seek power so they can unite their people against a threat. Ulric is the latter. In terms of strengthening the human kingdoms against the Dominion, I ask who better to lead in the defense if not Ulfric?Ulfric is a war hero. He liberated Markath from the Reachmen, is a proven general and warrior, able to kill Torygg in single combat, and is able to utilize the Thuum to kill a man. The Empire offers what? The Empire wants to install weak leaders and puppet jarls like Elisif with no military or political experience, in preparation for strengthening their alleged "counterattack" (that they'll never have the balls or leadership to pull off) against the Thalmor? Imperial supporters are crazy. It was the Septims the Nords bowed to and the Septims are dead! Worse, the Imperials spit on Tiber Septim's memory by banning his worship. So if people's concern about not backing Ulfric is because they want to strengthen themselves against the elves, how is suppressing the most capable leader at the moment intuitive to that intention? Backing the Imperials is counterintuitive to defending against the Dominion.

      My two cents

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote: My two cents

      Well, since they got you in the other thread, I'll debunk this here.

      "They think that accord with the Thalmor buys them time (allegedly I hear so they can restrengthen before they wage war again) but it only divided the human kingdoms and brewed resentment."

      You can actually thank the Stormcloaks for that. Because of them (primarily Ulfric), now the forces of man have diminished. If the Nords could have just waited, maybe the war never would have happened, and then the Thalmor could have been taken down. With the division, however, now such actions would be much harder to do.

      "It's bad enough they abandoned the redguards and sold their territories to sue for that peace, but to allow the banning of Talos."

      They didn't enforce it, though. Almost everyone practiced the worship of Talos in secret. In case you forgot, there were no Judiciars in SKyrim until after the Markarth Incident, which is, in fact, Ulfric's fault.

      "Anyone who doubts Ulfric is an indecisive fool or just a fool."

      Oh come on, get real. I'm not running around calling the opposition foolish or stupid. People will believe what they want, that's fine, but there's no reason to claim your point is the end all be all. Ulfric is far from being perfect, so doubting Ulfric is not only common, it's smart. In Skyrim, you shouldn't put all your trust into someone, especially someone who caused the hunting of Talos worshipers, the hostile occupation of an innocent city until they bowed to him, and who recently was tortured by Thalmor.

      "Some claim he only started the rebellion so he could be High King and I can tell you nothing can be further from the truth."

      Good luck with actually supporting that. If he had the best intentions in mind, he should have peacefully seceded, like Hammerfell did. All he needed to do was go to Torygg and say that Talos worship should not be banned. The Empire would cut their strings with them, and there would be no bloodshed or tensions. But no, the best way to go was obviously to start a war and cause the deaths of a ton of useful men.

      "Ulfric is a war hero. He liberated Markath from the Reachmen, is a proven general and warrior, able to kill Torygg in single combat, and is able to utilize the Thuum to kill a man."

      Not necessarily a good thing. As The Bear of Markarth and The Markarth Incident article explain, he held the city hostage, executing all who defied him and forcing all to agree with him, and those who didn't were imprisoned or executed as well. AS for Torygg, it was not the right move. As mentioned above, a peaceful method would show the true leadership skills: a good leader knows when the fight, but a better one knows when to keep the peace. Killing Torygg proves nothing, besides that Ulfric is impatient, and wants to seize power fast.

      "The Empire wants to install weak leaders and puppet jarls like Elisif with no military or political experience, in preparation for strengthening their alleged "counterattack"

      Because of Ulfric. Half of the Jarls are puppets on both sides, the others actually going for action. Due to the Civil War, the puppet Jarls are put in place so they won't lose influence. They're puppets, but they're loyal. Another user I knew made a through analysis on the Jarls. I'll link it here: Thread:859780#5

      "So if people's concern about not backing Ulfric is because they want to strengthen themselves against the elves, how is suppressing the most capable leader at the moment intuitive to that intention? Backing the Imperials is counterintuitive to defending against the Dominion."

      Ulfric is not the most capable. Far from it, actually. He's blinded by his emotion. He doesn't stop and think, just like his sidekick Galmar, as proven by the killing of Torygg. A leader compromised by emotions in not fit to lead. As I mentioned, Ulfric is helping his cause. He's harming it. Backing the Empire will at least keep people in place. I've mentioned before, that if there was an option to prevent the Civil War, or at least to make peace, I would take it in a heartbeat.

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    • Thalmor Knight 1 wrote:
      In my opinion, both sides are right, but each one had different agendas. The Stormcloaks are your typical Nords who would rather die with a sword in their hand than retreat, while the Emperials would rather bide their time until they were strong enough to stand up to the Aldmeri dominion. As my username suggests, I support the Aldmeri Dominion. Mer are superior to men.

      I roll an Altmer too, but I am not a Thalmor. Not all Altmers are Thalmor. If I am not mistaken the Thalmor before they came into power after Oblivion Crisis was a small but loud and unpopular political group in Summerset Isles.

      I often write my own Altmer character as an Altmer who lived in Cyrodiil or as one who will side with the Psijic Order. 90% of the time my Altmer character is kind of arrogant who looks down at the Stormcloaks and Imperials as ignorant children fighting each other.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote: My two cents

      Well, since they got you in the other thread, I'll debunk this here.

      "They think that accord with the Thalmor buys them time (allegedly I hear so they can restrengthen before they wage war again) but it only divided the human kingdoms and brewed resentment."

      You can actually thank the Stormcloaks for that. Because of them (primarily Ulfric), now the forces of man have diminished. If the Nords could have just waited, maybe the war never would have happened, and then the Thalmor could have been taken down. With the division, however, now such actions would be much harder to do.

      "It's bad enough they abandoned the redguards and sold their territories to sue for that peace, but to allow the banning of Talos."

      They didn't enforce it, though. Almost everyone practiced the worship of Talos in secret. In case you forgot, there were no Judiciars in SKyrim until after the Markarth Incident, which is, in fact, Ulfric's fault.

      "Anyone who doubts Ulfric is an indecisive fool or just a fool."

      Oh come on, get real. I'm not running around calling the opposition foolish or stupid. People will believe what they want, that's fine, but there's no reason to claim your point is the end all be all. Ulfric is far from being perfect, so doubting Ulfric is not only common, it's smart. In Skyrim, you shouldn't put all your trust into someone, especially someone who caused the hunting of Talos worshipers, the hostile occupation of an innocent city until they bowed to him, and who recently was tortured by Thalmor.

      "Some claim he only started the rebellion so he could be High King and I can tell you nothing can be further from the truth."

      Good luck with actually supporting that. If he had the best intentions in mind, he should have peacefully seceded, like Hammerfell did. All he needed to do was go to Torygg and say that Talos worship should not be banned. The Empire would cut their strings with them, and there would be no bloodshed or tensions. But no, the best way to go was obviously to start a war and cause the deaths of a ton of useful men.

      "Ulfric is a war hero. He liberated Markarth from the Reachmen, is a proven general and warrior, able to kill Torygg in single combat, and is able to utilize the Thuum to kill a man."

      Not necessarily a good thing. As The Bear of Markarth and The Markarth Incident article explain, he held the city hostage, executing all who defied him and forcing all to agree with him, and those who didn't were imprisoned or executed as well. AS for Torygg, it was not the right move. As mentioned above, a peaceful method would show the true leadership skills: a good leader knows when the fight, but a better one knows when to keep the peace. Killing Torygg proves nothing, besides that Ulfric is impatient, and wants to seize power fast.

      "The Empire wants to install weak leaders and puppet jarls like Elisif with no military or political experience, in preparation for strengthening their alleged "counterattack"

      Because of Ulfric. Half of the Jarls are puppets on both sides, the others actually going for action. Due to the Civil War, the puppet Jarls are put in place so they won't lose influence. They're puppets, but they're loyal. Another user I knew made a through analysis on the Jarls. I'll link it here: Thread:859780#5

      "So if people's concern about not backing Ulfric is because they want to strengthen themselves against the elves, how is suppressing the most capable leader at the moment intuitive to that intention? Backing the Imperials is counterintuitive to defending against the Dominion."

      Ulfric is not the most capable. Far from it, actually. He's blinded by his emotion. He doesn't stop and think, just like his sidekick Galmar, as proven by the killing of Torygg. A leader compromised by emotions in not fit to lead. As I mentioned, Ulfric is helping his cause. He's harming it. Backing the Empire will at least keep people in place. I've mentioned before, that if there was an option to prevent the Civil War, or at least to make peace, I would take it in a heartbeat.

      1. "You can actually thank the Stormcloaks for that. Because of them (primarily Ulfric), now the forces of man have diminished. If the Nords could have just waited, maybe the war never would have happened, and then the Thalmor could have been taken down. With the division, however, now such actions would be much harder to do. "

      2. "They didn't enforce it, though. Almost everyone practiced the worship of Talos in secret. In case you forgot, there were no Judiciars in SKyrim until after the Markarth Incident, which is, in fact, Ulfric's fault. "

      1. Wait for what? The Nords already have Thalmor Inquisitions rounding up their people on the streets with the excuse of enforcing the accords. People like that Greymane boy was abducted and sold to the Thalmors by their own neighbors just so Jarl Baalgruf could appease the elves from occupying their cities. Northwatch Keep is currently occupied by the elves and is where they interrogate their prisoners. So the elves has bases and secret police kidnapping Nords, yet the Cyrodillians who don't have to deal with any of that have the audacity to trivialize their grievances? And then there's the fact that the Empire and the Thalmor are persecuting their religion. This isn't some hobby that the Nords can privately indulge in at their leisure. This is their deity. To them, their worship could determine if they are granted entry to Sovngarde.

      As Heimskr says, "And there it is, friends! The ugly truth! We are the children of man! Talos is the true god of man! Ascended from flesh, to rule the realm of spirit!

      The very idea is inconceivable to our Elven overlords! Sharing the heavens with us? With man? Ha! They can barely tolerate our presence on earth!

      Today, they take away your faith. But what of tomorrow? What then? Do the elves take your homes? Your businesses? Your children? Your very lives?

      And what does the Empire do? Nothing! Nay, worse than nothing! The Imperial machine enforces the will of the Thalmor! Against its own people!

      So rise up! Rise up, children of the Empire! Rise up, Stormcloaks! Embrace the word of mighty Talos, he who is both man and Divine!

      For we are the children of man! And we shall inherit both the heavens and the earth! And we, not the Elves or their toadies, will rule Skyrim! Forever!"

      You expect the Nords to remain silent while the Empire and the Dominion blaspheme against their deity? Impossible, their very souls are on the line. Even daedric worshipers would silence all heresy to the death if their religion was besmirched.

      2. Except the Empire did enforce the Talos ban.

      ex.: Balgruuf: "I won't say it again, Vignar; Talos worship is forbidden. It's the Empire's law, and we're still a part of the Empire."

      Vignar: "A law made at the tip of an Aldmeri sword, aye. A sword stained red with Nord blood. Is this what our people fought and died for? To forsake our most beloved ancestor and divine?"

      Balgruuf: "I'm no happier about this than you are, but I don't want the [sic] see the Thalmor rounding up people in the streets and throwing them in prison."

      Vignar: "Do your loyalties lie with the Thalmor, then?" Balgruuf: "I warn you, Gray-Mane, you are treading on dangerous ground."

      Vignar: ""Don't threaten me, boy. You're either a Nord who respects our traditions, or you're not. If not, it isn't me you'll have to answer to, but the people of this city and this Hold."

      The shrines are shut down, praising talos can only be done under one's breath, and if they're caught its criminalized, thrown in jail by the Imperials or given to the Thalmor. You say Ulfric was the offender of the Markarth Incident? He is the victim. The Empire gave their word of free Talos worship and they went back on it and branded him a criminal! Thrown in jail for trying to stick up for Talos, for saving the Reach! If that's not enforcing the Talos ban, then I don't know what is. As I said above, religious worship isn't a hobby to be dismissed and trivialized. The rituals, the shrines, the open adoration, all is essential to their beliefs. And if you dismiss the necessity for the Nords to practice their faith freely, then you are forcing true Talos believers to fight you with violence. The Emperor signing the accord and enforcing the ban as well agreeing with the Thalmor that Talos is not a god is not only a political mistake, it's an affront to their way of life and a threat to their afterlife. You believe that worshipping in secret is sufficient, that's dismissive and insensitive and frankly it's not sufficient.

      "Good luck with actually supporting that. If he had the best intentions in mind, he should have peacefully seceded, like Hammerfell did. All he needed to do was go to Torygg and say that Talos worship should not be banned. The Empire would cut their strings with them, and there would be no bloodshed or tensions. But no, the best way to go was obviously to start a war and cause the deaths of a ton of useful men."

      Ulfric made a deal with the Empire to give Markath free worship of Talos in exchange for ridding the Reach of the Reachmen. The Empire went back on its word. And the High King did nothing. They attempted to arrest Ulfric for his heroic act and branded him as a criminal. Where was King Torygg when Ulfric was thrown in prison for trying to reinstate free Talos worship? Where was King Torygg when the Reach was taken over by Reachmen for two years? I said it once, and I'll say it again. If a High King needs to be provoked or asked to defend his people from the corruption of the Empire, he is unworthy of his office and since Ulfric took his life, he was unworthy as a warrior.

      "Not necessarily a good thing. As The Bear of Markarth and The Markarth Incident article explain, he held the city hostage, executing all who defied him and forcing all to agree with him, and those who didn't were imprisoned or executed as well. AS for Torygg, it was not the right move. As mentioned above, a peaceful method would show the true leadership skills: a good leader knows when the fight, but a better one knows when to keep the peace. Killing Torygg proves nothing, besides that Ulfric is impatient, and wants to seize power fast. "

      The city was already held hostage...by the Reachmen, and the Reach is one of Skyrim's most profitable holds. The Reachmen took the Reach by force and were trying to curry favor with the Empire to legitimize their hold over the land. So what do you want Ulfric to do? Just let the Empire give away the Reach to the Reachmen depriving the Nords their most valued Silvermines to usurpers? Treasonous and ridiculous. It's that sort of slimy two-faced politiking of the Empire is why Ulfric and his followers has to resort to force and violence. It's a valid tactic, the ability of intimidation is a sign of good politician and leader. Leaders need to be able to persuade, but they also need to coerce should the need arise. It's the only way to seperate the true sons and daughters of Skyrim and those treasonous curs content to sell their nation to the Empire for them to sell away to foreign invaders. Killing Torygg proved he was weak and made him him a symbol of every puppet jarl in Skyrim and sent a message to the downtrodden that he will be the face of resistance. And considering half of Skyrim wanted High King Ulfric, it made him a contender for the throne, his political message resonated with the masses, and a defender of Nord culture. You say Ulfric is impatient, I say he's bold. And fortune favors the bold. He's not timid or cowardly and sells away his convictions, nation, and people like the Mede Emperor.

      "Because of Ulfric. Half of the Jarls are puppets on both sides, the others actually going for action. Due to the Civil War, the puppet Jarls are put in place so they won't lose influence. They're puppets, but they're loyal. Another user I knew made a through analysis on the Jarls. I'll link it here: Thread:859780#5"

      Instead Ulfric reinstates the Moot to choose Skyrim's High King. Just because he has the most supporters just proves he's a capable politician as well as a general and warrior. He's a king among man, not hand picked by the Emperor. Becoming king only requires you be strong, to enforce your rule and have your people be prosperous. Furthermore, Ulfric respects the old ways. If he is challenged to a duel, and loses, he will concede because its the Nord way. They don't cry and whine and shift the blame of their incompetence by accusing the victor of being cruel or being a murderer. In Skyrim, a man should earn what he gets, not be handed it by a master like the Empire.

      "Ulfric is not the most capable. Far from it, actually. He's blinded by his emotion. He doesn't stop and think, just like his sidekick Galmar, as proven by the killing of Torygg. A leader compromised by emotions in not fit to lead. As I mentioned, Ulfric is helping his cause. He's harming it. Backing the Empire will at least keep people in place. I've mentioned before, that if there was an option to prevent the Civil War, or at least to make peace, I would take it in a heartbeat."

      He was able to perform the Thu'um, which takes great dedication and patience. You confuse determined and resolved in his convictions with being overly emotional and unstable. You're wrong. He's just tenacious and what you consider tyrannical is just being strong. Keeping the Nords strong, with a united culture through worship of Talos, by preventing the corrupt politicians from selling its resources to curry favor with their enemies, and being self-reliant as they did in the past. No, backing the Empire will never keep people in place because the Emperor and the Empire affronted their very souls by insulting Talos. What you consider peace is a surrender to a Stormcloak, to be slaves to a master for a false perception of "security". In Ulfric's own words, "the Empire I remember never surrendered." I honestly don't understand the devotion to the Empire. It's a sinking ship with the imps clinging on to anyone to drown with them just because they're too afraid to swim to safety by themselves.

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    • I don't think the Greymane was a 'boy' 

      He was a known Stormcloak sympathizer and planned to join the Stormcloaks. In fact that was what he did.

      There is no evidence that it was the Battleborns who sold him to the Empire. The letter we can find proves that they did not know what happened and started asking too much question that Tullius had to send them that letter to tell them what happened to the Greymane "boy" and most importantly shut the hell up.

      Talos wasn't interested in the Empire. If he cared, he wouldn't have said something like this "Emperor and the Empire was getting old. Time for a change, something young and new, for others to try new ideas out" about his own descendants (Uriel Septim VII)

      Remember Uriel Septim VII may have been imprisoned by Jagar Tharn and the Empire descended into Chaos, while he was alive, he did a very good job. Even Talos himself said so. He had produced results. The Empire that was in chaos, poor and weak became strong again under his reign.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote: I don't think the Greymane was a 'boy' 

      He was a known Stormcloak sympathizer and planned to join the Stormcloaks. In fact that was what he did.

      There is no evidence that it was the Battleborns who sold him to the Empire. The letter we can find proves that they did not know what happened and started asking too much question that Tullius had to send them that letter to tell them what happened to the Greymane "boy" and most importantly shut the hell up.

      Talos wasn't interested in the Empire. If he cared, he wouldn't have said something like this "Emperor and the Empire was getting old. Time for a change, something young and new, for others to try new ideas out" about his own descendants (Uriel Septim VII)

      Remember Uriel Septim VII may have been imprisoned by Jagar Tharn and the Empire descended into Chaos, while he was alive, he did a very good job. Even Talos himself said so. He had produced results. The Empire that was in chaos, poor and weak became strong again under his reign.

      1. The Empire allowed the Thalmor to abduct him by allowing them into Skyrim so yes, it is rational to blame the Empire. Whether he was a Stomcloak sympathizer or not is irrelevant, the Nords should not abandon their own to be tortured by a foreign enemy. Using his alleged politics as an excuse to let the elves kidnap him should offend Imperials and Stormcloak alike, the Imps should be offended that the elves has the audacity to kidnap one of their citizens, and the Stormcloaks should be offended they kidnapped a Nord, one of their own.

      2. The Empire's wars are not the issue, it's them shutting down Talos' shrines, persecuting his worshippers, and by publishing The Talos Mistake denying his divinity is a major issue because now it's a religious war. By doing these things, the Empire declared war on Talos.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VaQjfx2U2Lg Shoddy cast made a vid to give you a little background on the Nords beliefs. The Nords thought they would return to fight a war at the end of the culpa (culpa:measure of time to the end of the world to its eventual destruction and recreation). As far as the Nords are concerned, the world began with one big fight between each cultures versions of the gods. And after mortal life is done in Tamriel, there will be another war just like it with the gods' believers returning to fight in their armies. The Empire weakens Talos' divinity and claim to the pantheon in this time and in the future with their blasphemy, weakening the war to come to have the human cultures' pantheon emerge triumphant in the divinity war. Any true Talos believer will take the Talos worship ban as a call to arms to annihilate the Empire for they weaken the chances of a human God to win the great divinity war to come.

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    • 1) The Thalmor weren't in Skyrim until after the Markarth incident. After that, the Thalmor insisted that they are allowed in or a war breaks out. It'd be much worse if the Empire said no. Not only would Ulfric be credited with the start of the second great war, but The Empire would be in a terrible position, as they hadn't prepared enough for another attack.

      2) The Empire is not carrying out any arrests or persecution believers. Again, this is the Thalmor. A common argument is that The Empire and the Thalmor are practically the same thing, but they're not. They're biding time so they can take out their rival. The Empire is not a puppet or a pawn. Both rivals are playing each other, thinking the other are a different thing than they are. That liaison had the Dominion breathing down her neck. Anyone in that place would have to do the same, or risk war with the Dominion and/or execution.

      Also, don't take Shoddy Cast as being a reliable source. Check out Nordic Pantheon, a much better example of early nordic religion, as well as The Divines. I've never heard of a war involving the gods.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote: 1) The Thalmor weren't in Skyrim until after the Markarth incident. After that, the Thalmor insisted that they are allowed in or a war breaks out. It'd be much worse if the Empire said no. Not only would Ulfric be credited with the start of the second great war, but The Empire would be in a terrible position, as they hadn't prepared enough for another attack.

      2) The Empire is not carrying out any arrests or persecution believers. Again, this is the Thalmor. A common argument is that The Empire and the Thalmor are practically the same thing, but they're not. They're biding time so they can take out their rival. The Empire is not a puppet or a pawn. Both rivals are playing each other, thinking the other are a different thing than they are. That liaison had the Dominion breathing down her neck. Anyone in that place would have to do the same, or risk war with the Dominion and/or execution.

      Also, don't take Shoddy Cast as being a reliable source. Check out Nordic Pantheon, a much better example of early nordic religion, as well as The Divines. I've never heard of a war involving the gods.

      1. No matter how you slice it, it still is the Imperials fault that the Thalmor are in Skyrim. Did anyone force the Empire to lie to Ulfric? To say that they agreed to Ulfric's demands? If the damn appearance of the accords meant so much, they should have never have lured Ulfric out with false promises they never meant to keep and just besieged the Reach. Don't blame Ulfric for the Empire's political and governing failures. And when the Dominion snarls, they appeased the elves by granting them a foothold in Skyrim instead of saying no to their demands like a strong government. Is there any leader that hasn't pushed the Empire around? No wonder everyone wants to secede from it. Even if what you say is true, that the Empire will suddenly betray the Dominion's peace or the Dominion will, Skyrim is less secure now because it was the EMPIRE WHO LET THEM IN SKYRIM AND GAVE THEM FORTS FOR THEIR INQUISITIONS! How are they going to defend Skyrim when the battles starts up again when the Empire already handed them defensible positions on a silver platter?

      As for how Ulfric will be remembered, the Nords remembered him as the liberator of the Reach from usurpers, the Talos worshippers remember him as the only Nord hero trying to reestablish faith in Talos when the Empire tried to crush it. How is the Empire being viewed by the common man? The Talos Mistake is telling the entire world the Empire hates Talos, that he's not a real god, that the Thalmor are the Emperor's friends, that he betrayed Ulfric the devoted Nord hero trying to open up the Talos shrines again, that the Emperor let the Thalmor have forts in Skyrim and abuct Nords, that he abandoned the Redguards. You say Ulfric is the emotional one, I say you are if you support something as politically inept as the Empire when the true narrative is that everyone thinks the Empire is a dominion puppet.

      2. I think the Talos priests who say that the empire turned its back on Talos have more credibility on how persecuted they are then the dismisive remarks of Imp loyalists. I have a book published about how the Emperor hates Talos, published by Imperial agents, the Emperor letting the Thalmor kidnap citizens unchecked, thousands of complaints by Talos worshipers, the Imps trying to execute the Dragonborn and people accused of being Stormcloak rebels at the beginning of the game, and you have theories from disgruntled Imperial soldiers trying to rationalize why every time the Dominion tells the Empire to jump, the Emperor asks "How high?".

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    • I said that in a different thread but I will reinstate it here. I side with the Empire because like it or not, the Empire is the only force in Tamriel that can resist the Thalmor.

      Now I know what the Stormcloaks supporters might say: "Once we free Skyrim, we are going to be the real Anti-Thalmor. We are Nords, we are warriors, etc etc". Galmar even says that to the player if you are Stormcloak.

      But history shows us that separatism is not a solution to a common threat. Those who think the Stormcloaks are "liberating" Skyrim just don't see the bigger picture. The Thalmor do, however.
      The Thalmor simply play an individual lute on each province controlled by the Empire to make them break off. This is called "Salami Tactics", a.k.a "Divide and Conquer". Wanna examples? Alright! Summerset Isle? Take credits for what Martin Septim did. Valenwood? Organize a coup and take the Imperials supporters by surprise. Elsweyr? Use "dawn magic" to "restore" the moons and impress the Khajiits in the process (we all know the moons are gripped to their religion). Hammerfell? Demands the Empire to cede sections of southern Hammerfell to the Thalmor as a condition of the peace treaty, so the Emperor had to betray the Redguards - they'll never trust the Empire again. Skyrim? Use the Nords' religion (reverence to Talos in particular) to make them hate the Empire and rise up against it.

      So instead of "fighting the damn elves", Ulfric and Co. are simply dancing to their tune.

      And while we can all agree "freedom" is a noble pursuit, Ulfric could have fought specifically the Thalmor if that’s all he wanted. But no, it's totally the Empire who's the disgusting ones here. The Empire didn’t ban the worship of Talos, the Thalmor did, there's a huge difference there. It wasn’t the Empire's Idea. Hammerfell didn’t agree with the Empire either but they didn’t start killing Imperials or standing on soap boxes claiming they no longer NEEDED the Empire, they just kept fighting the Thalmor.

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    • As I've always said: if all four human races united barely stopped the Dominion in the Great War... how can one race alone hope to win?

      Barring divine intervention, humanity needs to be united against the Dominion. Not further divided.

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote: I said that in a different thread but I will reinstate it here. I side with the Empire because like it or not, the Empire is the only force in Tamriel that can resist the Thalmor.

      Now I know what the Stormcloaks supporters might say: "Once we free Skyrim, we are going to be the real Anti-Thalmor. We are Nords, we are warriors, etc etc". Galmar even says that to the player if you are Stormcloak.

      But history shows us that separatism is not a solution to a common threat. Those who think the Stormcloaks are "liberating" Skyrim just don't see the bigger picture. The Thalmor do, however.
      The Thalmor simply play an individual lute on each province controlled by the Empire to make them break off. This is called "Salami Tactics", a.k.a "Divide and Conquer". Wanna examples? Alright! Summerset Isle? Take credits for what Martin Septim did. Valenwood? Organize a coup and take the Imperials supporters by surprise. Elsweyr? Use "dawn magic" to "restore" the moons and impress the Khajiits in the process (we all know the moons are gripped to their religion). Hammerfell? Demands the Empire to cede sections of southern Hammerfell to the Thalmor as a condition of the peace treaty, so the Emperor had to betray the Redguards - they'll never trust the Empire again. Skyrim? Use the Nords' religion (reverence to Talos in particular) to make them hate the Empire and rise up against it.

      So instead of "fighting the damn elves", Ulfric and Co. are simply dancing to their tune.

      And while we can all agree "freedom" is a noble pursuit, Ulfric could have fought specifically the Thalmor if that’s all he wanted. But no, it's totally the Empire who's the disgusting ones here. The Empire didn’t ban the worship of Talos, the Thalmor did, there's a huge difference there. It wasn’t the Empire's Idea. Hammerfell didn’t agree with the Empire either but they didn’t start killing Imperials or standing on soap boxes claiming they no longer NEEDED the Empire, they just kept fighting the Thalmor.

      Except you can't force people to unite under the Empire by sword point. The Empire will be diverting needless resources to quell rebellions instead of strengthening their armies. You say seperatism isn't the answer, but everyone in Tamriel doesn't feel the same way as you do and people need to adapt to that fact. The Mede dynasty and by extension the empire isn't a uniting or rallying figure. They inspire no loyalty. In there efforts to appease the elves allegedly to buy more time to recoup their loses, they've alienated almost every human kingdom. Ulfric has made overtures to High Rock, he can be diplomatic as well and in time, I feel he will have more success at it. What people don't get is that the Empire can't unite or even get back its lost provinces at sword point. The Stormcloaks see them as tyrants who only care about having them kiss the ring.

      How does the common man see Ulfric? He will be remembered by the Nords as the liberator of the Reach from usurpers, the Talos worshippers remember him as the only Nord hero trying to reestablish faith in Talos when the Empire tried to crush it.

      How is the Empire being viewed by the common man? The Talos Mistake is telling the entire world the Empire hates Talos, that he's not a real god, that the Thalmor are the Emperor's friends, that he betrayed Ulfric the devoted Nord hero trying to open up the Talos shrines again, that the Emperor let the Thalmor have forts in Skyrim and abuct Nords, that he abandoned the Redguards.

      "The Empire didn’t ban the worship of Talos, the Thalmor did," Except The Talos Mistake is telling everyone that they did and they are.

      Ulfric is seen by the public as fighting for religous freedom appealing to all Divine worshipers, to all Talos believers. Ulfric is seen to reclaim land for his people. His legacy isn't stained with abandoning his allies or in appeasement of the elves. And he's a proven warrior and general who earned his crowned, not handed down it by being hand picked through nepotism. He's a tongue and uses the voice in battle just as Tiber Septim who he respects as a deity Talos.

      No one is denying that it's better for the human kingdoms to unite, but why must they unite under an Imperial banner? What can the Imperials possibly do to get the Redguards and the Stormcloaks to follow under the Empire's commands. Did you know why the Redguards were snuffed out originally by the Aldmeri Dominion? Because the Forebears and Crowns were divided. After they were abandoned by the Empire, the two factions set aside their differences and united, and drove out the Dominion by themselves. Now you may claim that this is a point for the Empire should unite the provinces, but as I wrote above, they've alienated Skyrim and Hammerfell with their appeasement of the elves and inspire no loyalty. They can never unite the disparate human kingdoms, and their strategy by doing it by sword point to "quell rebellion" as an excuse is just further dividing them. Tiber Septim didn't even unite Tamriel completely at sword point. He negotiated with people like the beastmen in order to get their loyalty and appealed to their individual cultures. The Medes however, destroyed their ability to do that for Skyrim and Hammerfell through their actions: denying Talos and abandoning Hammerfell during the Great War and signing the concordant.

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    • All the problems you mention were caused by Titus Mede II himself, and he's now dead. His successor might not even be a Mede (we've never heard of any heirs, but Bethesda might just have forgot to mention one). I'm still hoping the Elder Council had Titus II assassinated to put someone more decisive, less Thalmor-appeasing, and openly anti-Dominion on the throne.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: All the problems you mention were caused by Titus Mede II himself, and he's now dead. His successor might not even be a Mede (we've never heard of any heirs, but Bethesda might just have forgot to mention one). I'm still hoping the Elder Council had Titus II assassinated to put someone more decisive, less Thalmor-appeasing, and openly anti-Dominion on the throne.

      Even if you change the leader, the Redguards have had a taste of independence and found themselves capable of being self-reliant. They were able to drive out the Dominion by themselves. What could the Mede's successor offer them to bend the knee when the Imps, maybe not in this war, could abandon them again when a less worthy heir inherits the throne and screws them again? Same with the Stormcloaks. Most people don't go running back to their abusers when they have a chance to decide their own fate. If a worthy leader were to take the throne from the Medes, it would be politically ill advised to stipulate demands on the other alienated human kingdoms on the brink of war with the elves.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Even if you change the leader, the Redguards have had a taste of independence and found themselves capable of being self-reliant. They were able to drive out the Dominion by themselves. What could the Mede's successor offer them to bend the knee when the Imps, maybe not in this war, could abandon them again when a less worthy heir inherits the throne and screws them again? Same with the Stormcloaks. Most people don't go running back to their abusers when they have a chance to decide their own fate. If a worthy leader were to take the throne from the Medes, it would be politically ill advised to stipulate demands on the other alienated human kingdoms on the brink of war with the elves.

      It would come down to who the new Emperor is, really. An empathetic and charismatic leader similar to Tiber Septim would likely be able to get Hammerfell and East Skyrim to reintegrate peacefully. Marriage, reparations, territorial concessions, there'd be plenty of options available. But if it's another Emperor like Titus II, then not a chance. 

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Even if you change the leader, the Redguards have had a taste of independence and found themselves capable of being self-reliant. They were able to drive out the Dominion by themselves. What could the Mede's successor offer them to bend the knee when the Imps, maybe not in this war, could abandon them again when a less worthy heir inherits the throne and screws them again? Same with the Stormcloaks. Most people don't go running back to their abusers when they have a chance to decide their own fate. If a worthy leader were to take the throne from the Medes, it would be politically ill advised to stipulate demands on the other alienated human kingdoms on the brink of war with the elves.

      It would come down to who the new Emperor is, really. An empathetic and charismatic leader similar to Tiber Septim would likely be able to get Hammerfell and East Skyrim to reintegrate peacefully. Marriage, reparations, territorial concessions, there'd be plenty of options available. But if it's another Emperor like Titus II, then not a chance. 

      That may work for royals who are directly benefiting from that arrangement but the masses who followed these rebel leaders now turned colluders with the Empire that they rallied to rebel against will now see their leaders as corrupt and will rebel against them. Going back to my original point, the Empire would go back to wasting it's strength quelling rebellions . In my opinion, asking them to bend the knee again is a mistake. They'd be better off going slow by establishing trade and defense pacts.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      That may work for royals who are directly benefiting from that arrangement but the masses who followed these rebel leaders now turned colluders with the Empire that they rallied to rebel against will now see their leaders as corrupt and will rebel against them. 

      Not necessarily. When it comes to charismatic leaders like Ulfric, most will follow the man more than the ideal. If Ulfric agrees to reintegrate with the Empire, I can see most Stormcloaks agreeing if A) Talos worship is restored and B) Ulfric is crowned High King. Plus, if the Empire quickly moves to attack the Dominion a war will divert attention from any scandal the reconciliation will cause.

      As for the Redguards... well, we know nothing about their ruler so I won't go into it.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      That may work for royals who are directly benefiting from that arrangement but the masses who followed these rebel leaders now turned colluders with the Empire that they rallied to rebel against will now see their leaders as corrupt and will rebel against them. 

      Not necessarily. When it comes to charismatic leaders like Ulfric, most will follow the man more than the ideal. If Ulfric agrees to reintegrate with the Empire, I can see most Stormcloaks agreeing if A) Talos worship is restored and B) Ulfric is crowned High King. Plus, if the Empire quickly moves to attack the Dominion a war will divert attention from any scandal the reconciliation will cause.

      As for the Redguards... well, we know nothing about their ruler so I won't go into it.

      I honestly don't think so. When Bernie Sanders tried to get his voters to vote for Hillary Clinton, a lot of them seemed less than enthusiastic. The Stormcloaks also fought for an independent kingdom. Charisma only gets them so far when they flip flop in principles. Someone will challenge Ulfric to a duel like he challenged Torygg and they might win. Might even be one of his lieutenants. It could cause another civil war. It will be even worse if it's in the middle of the war with the Aldmeri Dominion. Ulfric set the precedent that a crown doesn't make a king. If he bends the knees, his followers will lose respect for him and without the zealotry of his followers, many will begin to not fear him and challenge him.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      I honestly don't think so. When Bernie Sanders tried to get his voters to vote for Hillary Clinton, a lot of them seemed less than enthusiastic. The Stormcloaks also fought for an independent kingdom. Charisma only gets them so far when they flip flop in principles. Someone will challenge Ulfric to a duel like he challenged Torygg and they might win. Might even be one of his lieutenants. It could cause another civil war. It will be even worse if it's in the middle of the war.

      Possibly, but if all their grievances are settled I can't see them continuing the rebel.

      At any rate, a new war with the Dominion is likely to change everyone's outlook. Even if they don't reintegrate, the Empire, Hammerfell, and Stormcloaks are likely to work together to fight the Dominion, and figure out where everyone stands once the war is over.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      I honestly don't think so. When Bernie Sanders tried to get his voters to vote for Hillary Clinton, a lot of them seemed less than enthusiastic. The Stormcloaks also fought for an independent kingdom. Charisma only gets them so far when they flip flop in principles. Someone will challenge Ulfric to a duel like he challenged Torygg and they might win. Might even be one of his lieutenants. It could cause another civil war. It will be even worse if it's in the middle of the war.

      Possibly, but if all their grievances are settled I can't see them continuing the rebel.

      At any rate, a new war with the Dominion is likely to change everyone's outlook. Even if they don't reintegrate, the Empire, Hammerfell, and Stormcloaks are likely to work together to fight the Dominion, and figure out where everyone stands once the war is over.

      Well independence is a grievance which won't be addressed if their leaders bend the knee to the Empire. They won't unite if they don't trust their leaders to get the job done. If their leaders start bending to the knee to an Emperor, every lost battle will cast doubt in their soldiers mind that their side doesn't have their shit together and it's all because their own leader is corrupt and weak since they let a weaker leader take the reigns. Fighting a war amongst themselves is a bigger threat to them in the war than the Aldmerri Dominion.

      I would suggest a compromise. Independence on the home turf, but in the offensive of Dominion lands, appoint a supreme commander.

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    • But they don't want independence for no reason. It's because a) they feel the Empire is a puppet of the Thalmor and b) Talos worship is outlawed. If both those are resolved (i.e, voiding the Concordat and either invading or getting invaded by the Dominion), I don't think the majority of Stormcloaks would oppose Ulfric reintegrating. I could be wrong, naturally.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: But they don't want independence for no reason. It's because a) they feel the Empire is a puppet of the Thalmor and b) Talos worship is outlawed. If both those are resolved (i.e, voiding the Concordat and either invading or getting invaded by the Dominion), I don't think the Stormcloaks would oppose Ulfric reintegrating. I could be wrong, but I don't think they would.

      One of the hold guards quotes is "The Imperials think we need they're laws, I'm proof that their wrong." Yes Talos worship ban and the Empire's weakness is a part of it, but they also hold resentment that the Imperials think themselves above everyone. That's going to cause racism amongst the ranks, resentment, possibly insubordination. An army needs to be united in values. It's not enough to have a common enemy, if your brother in arms only thinks of you as a meat shield and a servant after the war. Plus they have just been recently been dealing with killing each other and abandoning each other for a long time. That hatred is going to take while to heal.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      It would come down to who the new Emperor is, really. An empathetic and charismatic leader similar to Tiber Septim would likely be able to get Hammerfell and East Skyrim to reintegrate peacefully. Marriage, reparations, territorial concessions, there'd be plenty of options available. But if it's another Emperor like Titus II, then not a chance. 

      If it is a new leader like Tiber Septim, forget Hammerfell or Skyrim he'll probably wipe out the Aldmeri Dominion again and unite all of Tamriel under his rule again. As it was what Tiber Septim did.

      To the other guy, Nord culture or no, Thorald was no boy. The Thalmor didn't apprehend Thorald Gray-Mane for no reason. They suspect him to have connections with the Stormcloaks. Your original statement was.

      "People like that Greymane boy was abducted and sold to the Thalmors by their own neighbors just so Jarl Baalgruf could appease the elves from occupying their cities."

      Their neighbors or Battleborn according to the letter found in their home. They did not sell him out. The Letter was Tullius addressing them as they were asking too much question about their neighbors. Even though some of the Battleborns were arrogant jerks they still care about their neighbors the Graymanes. Letter was not evidence that the Battleborns were in cohorts with the Thalmor or Empire, Letter was evidence that the Battleborns tried to use their connections in the Empire to try learn what happened to Thorald.

      Jarl Baalgruf was never once in danger of 'having the elves from occupying their cities" 

      In Civil War, on an Imperial City, you get Imperial soldiers, not Thalmor. You don't get Thalmor Agents advising the Jarl either. I cannot help but see your statement as unreliable head canons.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      One of the hold guards quotes is "The Imperials think we need they're laws, I'm proof that their wrong." Yes Talos worship ban and the Empire's weakness is a part of it, but they also hold resentment that the Imperials think themselves above everyone. That's going to cause racism amongst the ranks, resentment, possibly insubordination. An army needs to be united in values. 

      True, but not all Nords feel that way. For example, half the Legion in Skyrim in made up of Nords who get along with the Imperial Legionnaires just fine. That "need their laws" quote is how some Nords feel, but I'd be surprised if most feel that way. Skyrim got along just fine with the Empire for centuries, it can happen again.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      One of the hold guards quotes is "The Imperials think we need they're laws, I'm proof that their wrong." Yes Talos worship ban and the Empire's weakness is a part of it, but they also hold resentment that the Imperials think themselves above everyone. That's going to cause racism amongst the ranks, resentment, possibly insubordination. An army needs to be united in values. 

      True, but not all Nords feel that way. For example, half the Legion in Skyrim in made up of Nords who get along with the Imperial Legionnaires just fine. That "need their laws" quote is how some Nords feel, but I'd be surprised if most feel that way. 

      Of course there are some nords who get along with the imps and I'd wager they are probably in the Legions because they feel that way. The issue though, is do you believe the Stormcloak soldiers feel the same way as the imp friendly nords you are talking about because after killing each other so that they don't get a high king hand picked by the emperor, it would seem a betrayal if they just accepted Imperial rule again. They also fought to have the Moot be something more than formal theater.

      Ulfrics' main speech is ,""I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil! I fight for their wives and children, whose names I heard whispered in their last breath. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing! I fight... because I must." He's going to look like a hypocrite if he bends the knee. A lot of angry stormcloak soldiers who bled and had brothers die for him will kill him for having them fight for nothing. Ulfric would look like Titus Mede II at the end of the Great War.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      He's going to look like a hypocrite if he bends the knee. A lot of angry stormcloak soldiers who bled and had brothers die for him will kill him for having them fight for nothing.

      Conversely, if they keep fighting once their reasons for rebelling are addressed, they're fighting just for the fun of it. I just can't see the Stormcloaks opposing reintegration once their grievances are resolved. 

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote: Jarl Baalgruf was never once in danger of 'having the elves from occupying their cities" 

      Balgruuf: "I won't say it again, Vignar; Talos worship is forbidden. It's the Empire's law, and we're still a part of the Empire."
      Vignar: "A law made at the tip of an Aldmeri sword, aye. A sword stained red with Nord blood. Is this what our people fought and died for? To forsake our most beloved ancestor and divine?"
      Balgruuf: "I'm no happier about this than you are, but I don't want to see the Thalmor rounding up people in the streets and throwing them in prison."
      Vignar: "Do your loyalties lie with the Thalmor, then?"
      Balgruuf: "I warn you, Gray-Mane, you are treading on dangerous ground."

      Vignar: ""Don't threaten me, boy. You're either a Nord who respects our traditions, or you're not. If not, it isn't me you'll have to answer to, but the people of this city and this Hold."

      Yes he was.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Balgruuf: "I'm no happier about this than you are, but I don't want to see the Thalmor rounding up people in the streets and throwing them in prison."
      Vignar: "Do your loyalties lie with the Thalmor, then?"
      Balgruuf: "I warn you, Gray-Mane, you are treading on dangerous ground."

      Vignar: ""Don't threaten me, boy. You're either a Nord who respects our traditions, or you're not. If not, it isn't me you'll have to answer to, but the people of this city and this Hold."

      Yes he was.

      That sounds more like Justiciars arresting Talos worshippers than a full-blown military occupation.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      He's going to look like a hypocrite if he bends the knee. A lot of angry stormcloak soldiers who bled and had brothers die for him will kill him for having them fight for nothing.

      Conversely, if they keep fighting once their reasons for rebelling are addressed, they're fighting just for the fun of it. I just can't see the Stormcloaks opposing reintegration once their grievances are resolved. 

      Well Nords are a proud warrior culture and the Stormcloaks considered themselves the faithful who stayed true when the Imperials didn't. Should they revoke the ban, they look like bandwagoners, faithful to Talos only when it's convenient. Why should they be conquered when they stayed true when it mattered? Talos worshipers who are more Stormcloak aligned could argue that Talos would want the Imperials to bend the knee to the Stormcloaks.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Balgruuf: "I'm no happier about this than you are, but I don't want to see the Thalmor rounding up people in the streets and throwing them in prison."
      Vignar: "Do your loyalties lie with the Thalmor, then?"
      Balgruuf: "I warn you, Gray-Mane, you are treading on dangerous ground."

      Vignar: ""Don't threaten me, boy. You're either a Nord who respects our traditions, or you're not. If not, it isn't me you'll have to answer to, but the people of this city and this Hold."

      Yes he was.

      That sounds more like Justiciars arresting Talos worshippers than a full-blown military occupation.

      Still a foreign army dragging you out of your house to be tortured and interrogated to betray your neighbors while your leader is powerless to stop them. I doubt their victims care about the difference in definition. Who knows, maybe that Imperial general who knows classified information essential to the Empire's security but was revealed to be a talos worshipper will know the difference.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Still a foreign army dragging you out of your house to be tortured and interrogated to betray your neighbors while your leader is powerless to stop them. I doubt their victims care about the difference in definition. Who knows, maybe that Imperial general who knows classified information essential to the Empire's security but was revealed to be a talos worshipper will know the difference.

      It's not an army, it's an agency.

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    • Sure the victim won't care, but Justiciars arresting Talos worshippers is quite different from a Dominion army invading and occupying a city. A few dead versus hundreds if not thousands.

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    • Draevan13 wrote: Sure the victim won't care, but Justiciars arresting Talos worshippers is quite different from a Dominion army invading and occupying a city. A few dead versus hundreds if not thousands.

      Who's to say that they won't do just that? What's to stop those Thalmor agents from letting the Dominion armies inside the city when the war starts up again? Pretending the Thalmor inquisitions aren't a threat doesn't change the fact that they still are a threat. Everyone always seems to underestimate how a few Thalmor agents could cause a downfall of a country. It's as if no one takes the threat of Thalmor sabotage seriously.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Who's to say that they won't do just that? What's to stop those Thalmor agents from letting the Dominion armies inside the city when the war starts up again?

      That would be a problem, but first the Dominion has to conquer Cyrodiil or High Rock to get at Skyrim. By then war will be long declared, and suspicious looking Altmer skulking about will get spotted pretty quick. Probably going to suck for non-Thalmor Altmer being wrongly suspected, though :/

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Who's to say that they won't do just that? What's to stop those Thalmor agents from letting the Dominion armies inside the city when the war starts up again?

      That would be a problem, but first the Dominion has to conquer Cyrodiil or High Rock to get at Skyrim. By then war will be long declared, and suspicious looking Altmer skulking about will get spotted pretty quick. Probably going to suck for non-Thalmor Altmer being wrongly suspected, though :/

      Conquering Cyrodiil and High rock will be a lot easier now that the Empire invited thalmor agents into those places unchecked to enforce the Talos ban. those agents would then continue to persecute its citizens and fund other rebellions to prevent the Empire from recouping their loses. Might even turn some of the natives. Unless the Empire makes the first move against the peace, in which case the Thalmor agents would probably scorch as much resources as they can to continue to cripple them while the unharassed Dominion armies have been proliferating and preparing for this war. Either way, the Empire is not prepared.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Conquering Cyrodiil and High rock will be a lot easier now that the Empire invited thalmor agents into those places unchecked to enforce the Talos ban. 

      One of the many reasons I'm glad Titus II is dead.

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    • Imps biggest fault is that they're too focused on trying to win against their fellow men instead figuring out how not to lose against the Thalmor.

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    • I think that's just Titus II. I'd be shocked if the Legion Generals or Elder Council members weren't planning for war with the Dominion. Especially the Generals.

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    • Lvl 53 and have not yet chosen a side, but leaning toward Stormcloak. I wanted to try and do the side quests before picking a side so I don't have any bugged quests/items. Leaning toward Stormcloak because I somehow messed up getting a house in Maarkarth and cannot buy it, but I remember reading somewhere when the Jarl is replaced that I get the option to buy the house again. I'm not that into the whole story line because I play off and on, and mostly just rob everything.

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    • Cirose wrote:
      Lvl 53 and have not yet chosen a side, but leaning toward Stormcloak. I wanted to try and do the side quests before picking a side so I don't have any bugged quests/items. Leaning toward Stormcloak because I somehow messed up getting a house in Maarkarth and cannot buy it, but I remember reading somewhere when the Jarl is replaced that I get the option to buy the house again. I'm not that into the whole story line because I play off and on, and mostly just rob everything.

      During the main quest you can also trade Markarth for a Riften, makes it switch Jarls without having to join the bad guys.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:
      Imps biggest fault is that they're too focused on trying to win against their fellow men instead figuring out how not to lose against the Thalmor.

      Actually, the Empire knows that the Civil War is a Thalmor plan, the Stormcloaks are the ones who don't.

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    • Knowing and not able to come up with anything more effective to counter the plan without wasting precious resources is hardly any better than unknowing besides leaders of the Stormcloaks should at least know this hence the statement that the Empire knows while the Stormcloaks doesn't is not true. The Stormcloaks simply doesn't care, they believe that Talos is their God, his descendants are their only true Emperor. Medes are not from Talos' bloodline, to the Stormcloaks, the Imperials are as guilty as the Thalmor until they leave Skyrim. Ulfric even acknowledges this if the Dragonborn help them win and added that the Imperials aren't the good guys either.

      The claims that an empire fails because a foreign power is able to enter your homes and arrest people freely were the result of many things done by all sides. The Thalmor, the people of the Empire who joined Stormcloak rebellion and the leaders of the Empire. All is at fault here. The one who gave the Thalmor opportunity to force the Empire to waste its energy on its own people. Uriel Septim VII was imprisoned by Jagar Tharn for over 10 years, the Empire was messed up by the traitor. Jagar Tharn works for the Daedra and is considered a foreign power. It didn't stop Uriel Septim VII from doing an excellent job of restoring the Empire to its former prosperity and strength. We are not talking whether Medes were able to do the same. I am talking about an Empire having a foreign power doing whatever it pleases = Empire sucks, is not true.

      Markarth and Riften are pretty bad already, doesn't look like changing leadership will change much.

      My character level 174. Never choose a side out of good faith.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:
      Except you can't force people to unite under the Empire by sword point. The Empire will be diverting needless resources to quell rebellions instead of strengthening their armies. You say seperatism isn't the answer, but everyone in Tamriel doesn't feel the same way as you do and people need to adapt to that fact. The Mede dynasty and by extension the empire isn't a uniting or rallying figure. They inspire no loyalty. In there efforts to appease the elves allegedly to buy more time to recoup their loses, they've alienated almost every human kingdom. Ulfric has made overtures to High Rock, he can be diplomatic as well and in time, I feel he will have more success at it. What people don't get is that the Empire can't unite or even get back its lost provinces at sword point. The Stormcloaks see them as tyrants who only care about having them kiss the ring.

      HOW CUTE. Ulfric has made overtures to High Rock? Given Ulfric's way of diplomacy (side with me or face my army), he is going to invade and take over High Rock if they refuse to forge an alliance with them.

      How does the common man see Ulfric? He will be remembered by the Nords as the liberator of the Reach from usurpers, the Talos worshippers remember him as the only Nord hero trying to reestablish faith in Talos when the Empire tried to crush it.

      Ulfric liberated the reach not for his duty for Skyrim and its people but because he would receive payment for his services, just like a normal mercenary would act. And like I said before, Ulfric wants the throne, Talos worship is just a by-product of his real goal and he wants to preserve an IMPERIAL GOD.

      How is the Empire being viewed by the common man? The Talos Mistake is telling the entire world the Empire hates Talos, that he's not a real god, that the Thalmor are the Emperor's friends, that he betrayed Ulfric the devoted Nord hero trying to open up the Talos shrines again, that the Emperor let the Thalmor have forts in Skyrim and abuct Nords, that he abandoned the Redguards.

      The Empire doesn't give 2 shits about who worships what (ex: Legate Rikke is a Talos worshipper. Tullius knows this and does nothing). It's the THalmor that cares. Furthermore, Ulfric is the cause of the entire Talos ban being enforced in Skyrim, prior to the Markarth Incident there weren't any Thalmor in Skyrim.

      "The Empire didn’t ban the worship of Talos, the Thalmor did," Except The Talos Mistake is telling everyone that they did and they are.

      OPEN worship of Talos was banned by the Empire, but not enforced in Skyrim, and wasn’t enforced until Ulfric demanded open worship AND held a city hostage till he got his way, FORCING the Empire and by extension the Thalmor to enforce the ban. After this (The Markarth Incident) Dominion soldiers were stationed into Skyrim. Who's real fault is this? Prior to the Markarth Incident there weren't any Thalmor in Skyrim. Afterward, they were stationed there.

      Ulfric is seen by the public as fighting for religous freedom appealing to all Divine worshipers, to all Talos believers. Ulfric is seen to reclaim land for his people. His legacy isn't stained with abandoning his allies or in appeasement of the elves. And he's a proven warrior and general who earned his crowned, not handed down it by being hand picked through nepotism. He's a tongue and uses the voice in battle just as Tiber Septim who he respects as a deity Talos.

      Do you honestly believe Ulfric stands up for religious freedom? He wants the throne, Talos worship is just the by-product of his real goal, not the goal itself. Besides, Ulfric is a giant dick because he fights to preserve an IMPERIAL GOD.

      No one is denying that it's better for the human kingdoms to unite, but why must they unite under an Imperial banner? What can the Imperials possibly do to get the Redguards and the Stormcloaks to follow under the Empire's commands. Did you know why the Redguards were snuffed out originally by the Aldmeri Dominion? Because the Forebears and Crowns were divided. After they were abandoned by the Empire, the two factions set aside their differences and united, and drove out the Dominion by themselves. Now you may claim that this is a point for the Empire should unite the provinces, but as I wrote above, they've alienated Skyrim and Hammerfell with their appeasement of the elves and inspire no loyalty. They can never unite the disparate human kingdoms, and their strategy by doing it by sword point to "quell rebellion" as an excuse is just further dividing them. Tiber Septim didn't even unite Tamriel completely at sword point. He negotiated with people like the beastmen in order to get their loyalty and appealed to their individual cultures. The Medes however, destroyed their ability to do that for Skyrim and Hammerfell through their actions: denying Talos and abandoning Hammerfell during the Great War and signing the concordant.

      And do you think they're going to unite under Ulfric banner? Grow up boy.

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    • Just a correction, the Crowns and Forebears didn't unite after the Empire expelled Hammerfell, it was before. That unison happened in 4E 173, Hammerfell wasn't expelled until 4E 175. 

      Besides, they've united before and always end up going back into conflict after a while. Been that way for thousands of years, and it'll probably flare up when a Forebear mocks a Crown's outfit or something :P

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:
      Knowing and not able to come up with anything more effective to counter the plan without wasting precious resources is hardly any better than unknowing besides leaders of the Stormcloaks should at least know this hence the statement that the Empire knows while the Stormcloaks doesn't is not true. The Stormcloaks simply doesn't care, they believe that Talos is their God, his descendants are their only true Emperor. Medes are not from Talos' bloodline, to the Stormcloaks, the Imperials are as guilty as the Thalmor until they leave Skyrim. Ulfric even acknowledges this if the Dragonborn help them win and added that the Imperials aren't the good guys either.

      The claims that an empire fails because a foreign power is able to enter your homes and arrest people freely were the result of many things done by all sides. The Thalmor, the people of the Empire who joined Stormcloak rebellion and the leaders of the Empire. All is at fault here. The one who gave the Thalmor opportunity to force the Empire to waste its energy on its own people. Uriel Septim VII was imprisoned by Jagar Tharn for over 10 years, the Empire was messed up by the traitor. Jagar Tharn works for the Daedra and is considered a foreign power. It didn't stop Uriel Septim VII from doing an excellent job of restoring the Empire to its former prosperity and strength. We are not talking whether Medes were able to do the same. I am talking about an Empire having a foreign power doing whatever it pleases = Empire sucks, is not true.

      Markarth and Riften are pretty bad already, doesn't look like changing leadership will change much.

      My character level 174. Never choose a side out of good faith.

      It wasn't the Empire that started the war. Of course it won't be on the Empire's part to ask for peace, they are winning the war. The Empire knows it because the CW started, the Thalmor forced the Empire to divert much-needed resources in defeating the rebellion. The Stormcloaks don't know it, hence why they are surprised by what Tullius says. 


      Cirose said he was leaning towards the Stormcloaks because a change of Jarl could fix his bug with a house in Markarth....

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:

      Ulfric liberated the reach not for his duty for Skyrim and its people but because he would receive payment for his services, just like a normal mercenary would act. And like I said before, Ulfric wants the throne, Talos worship is just a by-product of his real goal and he wants to preserve an IMPERIAL GOD.

      How is the Empire being viewed by the common man? The Talos Mistake is telling the entire world the Empire hates Talos, that he's not a real god, that the Thalmor are the Emperor's friends, that he betrayed Ulfric the devoted Nord hero trying to open up the Talos shrines again, that the Emperor let the Thalmor have forts in Skyrim and abuct Nords, that he abandoned the Redguards.

      The Empire doesn't give 2 shits about who worships what (ex: Legate Rikke is a Talos worshipper. Tullius knows this and does nothing). It's the THalmor that cares. Furthermore, Ulfric is the cause of the entire Talos ban being enforced in Skyrim, prior to the Markarth Incident there weren't any Thalmor in Skyrim.

      "The Empire didn’t ban the worship of Talos, the Thalmor did," Except The Talos Mistake is telling everyone that they did and they are.

      OPEN worship of Talos was banned by the Empire, but not enforced in Skyrim, and wasn’t enforced until Ulfric demanded open worship AND held a city hostage till he got his way, FORCING the Empire and by extension the Thalmor to enforce the ban. After this (The Markarth Incident) Dominion soldiers were stationed into Skyrim. Who's real fault is this? Prior to the Markarth Incident there weren't any Thalmor in Skyrim. Afterward, they were stationed there.

      Ulfric is seen by the public as fighting for religous freedom appealing to all Divine worshipers, to all Talos believers. Ulfric is seen to reclaim land for his people. His legacy isn't stained with abandoning his allies or in appeasement of the elves. And he's a proven warrior and general who earned his crowned, not handed down it by being hand picked through nepotism. He's a tongue and uses the voice in battle just as Tiber Septim who he respects as a deity Talos.

      Do you honestly believe Ulfric stands up for religious freedom? He wants the throne, Talos worship is just the by-product of his real goal, not the goal itself. Besides, Ulfric is a giant dick because he fights to preserve an IMPERIAL GOD.

      And do you think they're going to unite under Ulfric banner? Grow up boy.

      "Ulfric has made overtures to High Rock? Given Ulfric's way of diplomacy (side with me or face my army), he is going to invade and take over High Rock if they refuse to forge an alliance with them."

      Doubt it. I know you believe that Ulfric is the devil incarnate, but that's just because he tells you the Empire's a mess and you don't want to believe it. He's actually a very patient, strategic man. For example:

      Ulfric: "Calm yourself, Galmar. Save it for the battlefield."
      Galmar: "Our men are getting massacred out there. Damn Imperials."
      Ulfric: "We can't march on Solitude. Not yet. One thing at a time."
      Galmar: "We need to move faster. Keep them off balance."
      Ulfric: "It's working, Galmar. Our patience has won us friends and allies. And our armies are systematically taking care of the rest."

      Now I'm not saying he won't invade High Rock. If they threaten his kingdom, then he'll fight them like he fights the Empire. But if they stay neutral or support him, at best he'll ignore them in order to conserve his armies' strength for the Empire and the Thalmor.

      "Ulfric liberated the reach not for his duty for Skyrim and its people but because he would receive payment for his services, just like a normal mercenary would act. And like I said before, Ulfric wants the throne, Talos worship is just a by-product of his real goal and he wants to preserve an IMPERIAL GOD."

      First of all many claim that Talos was a Nord, and he was Dragonborn, which is respected by Nords regardless of ethnicity. Talos isn't just an Imperial god, he's also the Nord's god, in fact all of humanity's god. Talos' divinity transcends petty human tribalism and politics. Ulfric has shown Talos the proper respect and reverence, and thus Ulfric is worthy of respect.

      Secondly, you seem to be under the impression that I give 2 shits about Ulfric's motivations. I don't care if he started the rebellion out of vanity, out of vengeance, or a sincere belief he's doing what's best for his people. He hates the Dominion as I do and he did not kneel to the Empire when they asked him to disrespect Talos on behalf of the elves, even in his dying breath he went out fighting. Since his soul found its way to the shores of Sovngarde, fate itself has found him worthy to enter paradise so I feel he is vindicated no matter what the imps say. At the very least, he died to preserve the worship of Talos which earns him favor from Talos worshippers and possibly Talos himself.

      "And do you think they're going to unite under Ulfric banner?."

      Tamriel has a better shot of uniting under Ulfric than they do under Cyrodill. Why? Because he doesn't kneel to lick boots, Dominon and Imperial alike. The Imps have shown to kneel to lick Dominon boots. The Redguards would be more inclined to support Ulfric since he did not kneel to the Empire and hates the Dominion, which in contrast to the Empire, who abandoned them to the Dominion and sold their lands to save their own skins. Nords respect him because he respects Nord culture, he isn't afraid of the Empire or the Dominion. True Nords will fight for him to the death. Even in Ulfric's death, you think they'll stop? Stormcloaks don't hide, they don't worship Talos in secret like they're ashamed of him, and they don't fear death. They'll wage war on the Empire to avenge Ulfric, even if they all die because they fight to uphold Talos and all that's waiting on the other side is Sovngarde. "Victory... or Sovngarde!" Should the dominion wreck all of Cyrodill, I wouldn't shed a tear. At least Talos would get his vengence for the Imps blasphemy. Even some Imperials can be found in support of Ulfric's rebellion as some travel to join him and they do so because the know their Emprire is a mess.

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    • Ulfric and Galmar was nothing close to being surprised. Are you sure you were not dreaming? This doesn't matter.

      I said I choose not to join in the civil war out of good faith. To minimize the chaos and better spend my time preparing for the war with Aldmeri Dominion. I don't even need to be there for the next Great War, I prepared Skyrim for it.

      Since you say the Empire was winning without my help, it means my good faith was well-placed, the Empire was going to pass the simple test I gave it. Case closed.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      "Ulfric has made overtures to High Rock? Given Ulfric's way of diplomacy (side with me or face my army), he is going to invade and take over High Rock if they refuse to forge an alliance with them."

      1. Doubt it. I know you believe that Ulfric is the devil incarnate, but that's just because he tells you the Empire's a mess and you don't want to believe it. He's actually a very patient, strategic man. For example:

      Ulfric: "Calm yourself, Galmar. Save it for the battlefield."
      Galmar: "Our men are getting massacred out there. Damn Imperials."
      Ulfric: "We can't march on Solitude. Not yet. One thing at a time."
      Galmar: "We need to move faster. Keep them off balance."
      Ulfric: "It's working, Galmar. Our patience has won us friends and allies. And our armies are systematically taking care of the rest."

      Now I'm not saying he won't invade High Rock. If they threaten his kingdom, then he'll fight them like he fights the Empire. But if they stay neutral or support him, at best he'll ignore them in order to conserve his armies' strength for the Empire and the Thalmor.

      "Ulfric liberated the reach not for his duty for Skyrim and its people but because he would receive payment for his services, just like a normal mercenary would act. And like I said before, Ulfric wants the throne, Talos worship is just a by-product of his real goal and he wants to preserve an IMPERIAL GOD."

      2. First of all many claim that Talos was a Nord, and he was Dragonborn, which is respected by Nords regardless of ethnicity. Talos isn't just an Imperial god, he's also the Nord's god, in fact all of humanity's god. Talos' divinity transcends petty human tribalism and politics. Ulfric has shown Talos the proper respect and reverence, and thus Ulfric is worthy of respect.

      Secondly, you seem to be under the impression that I give 2 shits about Ulfric's motivations. I don't care if he started the rebellion out of vanity, out of vengeance, or a sincere belief he's doing what's best for his people. He hates the Dominion as I do and he did not kneel to the Empire when they asked him to disrespect Talos on behalf of the elves, even in his dying breath he went out fighting. Since his soul found its way to the shores of Sovngarde, fate itself has found him worthy to enter paradise so I feel he is vindicated no matter what the imps say. At the very least, he died to preserve the worship of Talos which earns him favor from Talos worshippers and possibly Talos himself.

      "And do you think they're going to unite under Ulfric banner?."

      3. Tamriel has a better shot of uniting under Ulfric than they do under Cyrodill. Why? Because he doesn't kneel to lick boots, Dominon and Imperial alike. The Imps have shown to kneel to lick Dominon boots. The Redguards would be more inclined to support Ulfric since he did not kneel to the Empire and hates the Dominion, which in contrast to the Empire, who abandoned them to the Dominion and sold their lands to save their own skins. Nords respect him because he respects Nord culture, he isn't afraid of the Empire or the Dominion. True Nords will fight for him to the death. Even in Ulfric's death, you think they'll stop? Stormcloaks don't hide, they don't worship Talos in secret like they're ashamed of him, and they don't fear death. They'll wage war on the Empire to avenge Ulfric, even if they all die because they fight to uphold Talos and all that's waiting on the other side is Sovngarde. "Victory... or Sovngarde!" Should the dominion wreck all of Cyrodill, I wouldn't shed a tear. At least Talos would get his vengence for the Imps blasphemy. Even some Imperials can be found in support of Ulfric's rebellion as some travel to join him and they do so because the know their Emprire is a mess.

      1. He's only patient with Solitude because he doesn't want to provoke the entire Empire, Ulfric knows he's weaker than the full might of the Empire. Ulfric has a way of dealing with neutrality; conquest. Remember Whiterun?

      2. Talos is an Imperial God, Ysmir is the Nordic Aspect of Talos. But do the Nords have shrines to Ysmir? No, not even the Stormcloaks. They ditch their own religion to follow the Empire, then get butthurt when the Empire bans their own god.

      Ulfric knelt to the Dominion during the Great War instead of using his voice, fled back to Skyrim, started building an army, then, after the war, used said army to demand free Talos worship so that the Thalmor could come to Skyrim. Ulfric's way worse, he only became uncooperative because the Thalmor stabbed him in the back. He's in Sovngarde because he's a Nord who died in battle and is honored by his Stormcloaks, nothing else. Talos won't grant him any favor after the betrayal of Ulfric against his Empire.

      3. Except that he did. Unlike the Medes, who supplied rebels in Valenwood in an attempt to get rid of the Dominion (Something they have been trying to do since prior to 4E 40). The Redguards acknowledge that the Empire is needed to defeat the Dominion, the Nords still hold Elinhir and part of Dragonstar, which both belong to Hammerfell, the Redguards gain nothing from such an alliance. Ulfric doesn't respect Nord culture, he uses it when it suits him and when it doesn't, he chooses to ignore it. Yes they'll stop, without Ulfric's puny HQ, there won't be any income to keep weapons sharp and food coming. If it takes too long, the Empire will scout out and eliminate every last Stormcloak. Ulfric's cause might be true but the man is a lie. Anyone supporting him doesn't get the bigger picture, and his Stormcloaks work in the short, too short, term, instead of the long term.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:
      Doubt it. I know you believe that Ulfric is the devil incarnate, but that's just because he tells you the Empire's a mess and you don't want to believe it. He's actually a very patient, strategic man. For example:

      Ulfric: "Calm yourself, Galmar. Save it for the battlefield." Galmar: "Our men are getting massacred out there. Damn Imperials." Ulfric: "We can't march on Solitude. Not yet. One thing at a time." Galmar: "We need to move faster. Keep them off balance." Ulfric: "It's working, Galmar. Our patience has won us friends and allies. And our armies are systematically taking care of the rest."

      Now I'm not saying he won't invade High Rock. If they threaten his kingdom, then he'll fight them like he fights the Empire. But if they stay neutral or support him, at best he'll ignore them in order to conserve his armies' strength for the Empire and the Thalmor.

      Ulfric is very patient? Balgruuf begs to disagree.

      2. First of all many claim that Talos was a Nord, and he was Dragonborn, which is respected by Nords regardless of ethnicity. Talos isn't just an Imperial god, he's also the Nord's god, in fact all of humanity's god. Talos' divinity transcends petty human tribalism and politics. Ulfric has shown Talos the proper respect and reverence, and thus Ulfric is worthy of respect. Secondly, you seem to be under the impression that I give 2 shits about Ulfric's motivations. I don't care if he started the rebellion out of vanity, out of vengeance, or a sincere belief he's doing what's best for his people. He hates the Dominion as I do and he did not kneel to the Empire when they asked him to disrespect Talos on behalf of the elves, even in his dying breath he went out fighting. Since his soul found its way to the shores of Sovngarde, fate itself has found him worthy to enter paradise so I feel he is vindicated no matter what the imps say. At the very least, he died to preserve the worship of Talos which earns him favor from Talos worshippers and possibly Talos himself.

      Talos is known as Ysmir by the Nords but Talos himself is an imperial god, not a nordic one. And Ulfric has shown Talos the proper respect and reverence by destroying the Empire he built. And if Ulfric hates the Dominion so much why is he not attacking THEM instead of instigating a war with the Empire? There's a Thalmor Embassy in Skyrim. Why doesn't he attack it? Why doesn't he raid that Thalmor prison and free captured Talos worshippers? Why did he turn this into a fight against the Empire? And I'm going to say again for the 3rd time, Ulfric only cares about the throne, everything else are just by-product of his goal.

      3. Tamriel has a better shot of uniting under Ulfric than they do under Cyrodill. Why? Because he doesn't kneel to lick boots, Dominon and Imperial alike. The Imps have shown to kneel to lick Dominon boots. The Redguards would be more inclined to support Ulfric since he did not kneel to the Empire and hates the Dominion, which in contrast to the Empire, who abandoned them to the Dominion and sold their lands to save their own skins. Nords respect him because he respects Nord culture, he isn't afraid of the Empire or the Dominion. True Nords will fight for him to the death. Even in Ulfric's death, you think they'll stop? Stormcloaks don't hide, they don't worship Talos in secret like they're ashamed of him, and they don't fear death. They'll wage war on the Empire to avenge Ulfric, even if they all die because they fight to uphold Talos and all that's waiting on the other side is Sovngarde. "Victory... or Sovngarde!" Should the dominion wreck all of Cyrodill, I wouldn't shed a tear. At least Talos would get his vengence for the Imps blasphemy. Even some Imperials can be found in support of Ulfric's rebellion as some travel to join him and they do so because the know their Emprire is a mess.

      Ulfric doesn't kneel to lick boots, Dominon and Imperial alike? He sold out the Imperial City under torture despite his claims of Nord honor and valor and when he was first captured by General Tullius just prior to the start of the game, he quietly surrenders rather than fight for "Victory or Sovngarde!" . And if the The Imps have shown to kneel to lick Dominon boots, then why there's a cold war going on right now between the Empire and the Thalmor? Ulfric respects Nord culture? He Disrespects the Moot, Disrespects the Jarls, Broke his oath to the High King, Broke his oath to the Greybeards, Places bets on the Jagged Crown not being at Korvanjund (due to thinking it doesn't exist), Fights to preserve an IMPERIAL GOD, Doesn't follow the Nordic Pantheon. As for the Redguards forging an alliance with Skyrim, Did you know the Redguards and Nords fought against each other during War of Bend'r-Mahk some 600 years ago? Hammerfell just experienced Haymon Camoran or the Camoran Usurper taking advantage of the disunity between the Crowns and Forebears to invade the weakened Hammerfell. After the Camoran Usurper's invasion, the further weakened Hammerfell faced the Nords from Skyrim. The Crowns and Forebears was too caught up with their hatred for each other to face the Nords properly. It ended up with Elinhir and half of Dragonstar captured by Skyrim. So if you think Hammerfell is going to step in and help Skyrim, you're mistaken. War grievances do not disappear overnight. Talos would get his vengence for the Imps blasphemy? If anything, both Akatosh and Talos would be opposed to Ulfric: Akatosh is very specifically the Patron God of the Empire, while Talos is its Founder.

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    • I have my own approach and opinion as to how I want to deal with the Civil War. I spend my time restoring the Guilds and uniting them under my wing. 

      Imperials killing Stormcloaks or vice versa no matter how right their reason for doing so sounds, it is still an act of Citizens of Talos' Empire killing each other. 

      I put my time on a better use. Unite the non-government organizations under my wing. Let them fight, may the best man or Side wins. I will commit the resources I accumulated to help them. It will be a good training for the winning side to fight the Civil War. 

      This is my head canon but it is exactly what I will do if I am the Dragonborn. After the start of the Dragonborn DLC, I don't know what Hermaeus Mora will do to me. I will instead write a letter to various leaders of the Guild under my control and tell them work with each other to help fight against the Aldmeri Dominion in case I cannot return. A group consists of combined arms, best Nord warriors in Companions, best Skyrim mages from College, Scouts and spies in the Thieves Guild and Assassins from Dark Brotherhood to strike from the Shadows. 

      My letter is important as I have to convince the Mages, Dark Brotherhood, Thieves and Companions to work together. I am extremely confident I can convince them.

      Companions act as Warriors, archers and trainers for Soldiers. Mages from College act as healers, enchanters and Battlemages. Thieves Guild are the scout and spies. They will act as 1 of the two espionage teams, disrupting economy, burn supplies of the enemy, steal information, pocket lots of gold solely at expense of the Aldmeri Dominion army, perform Dark Sacrilege on Aldmeri Dominion leaders. Dark Brotherhood, act as the other espionage team, focus on information gathering and cold-blooded murder of Aldmeri Dominion commanders.

      Maybe I should call this; The Dragon Legion.

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote: Talos is known as Ysmir by the Nords

      Yes Talos is also Ysmir so case closed. Don't know why you continue to shout that Talos is an Imp god when you agree with me he's a nord god.

      "Ulfric is very patient? Balgruuf begs to disagree."

      Why would I care what Balgruuf thinks? He only cares about enriching himself, he threw away his honor when he sold his people out in order to get more Imperial coin because of Whiterun's economic failures. Balgruuf is nothing but a mercenary who cares only about enriching himself and Whiterun's coffers. When the Dominion destroys the Empire, he'll be the first to kneel before the elven overlords. Atleast if you side with the Empire, Ulfric died with a sword in his hand, Balgruuf went into exile with his tail between his legs. And despite hating on the Talos ban, he stays his tongue like a coward because he's too afraid fight for his beliefs. The Sheeple only like him because he's non-confrontational, and even if he's a two-faced coward, his honeyed words are able to fool those who think he's such a great leader.

      "And Ulfric has shown Talos the proper respect and reverence by destroying the Empire he built."

      "Talos would get his vengence for the Imps blasphemy? If anything, both Akatosh and Talos would be opposed to Ulfric: Akatosh is very specifically the Patron God of the Empire, while Talos is its Founder."

      The Empire that denies Talos' divinity, shut down Talos' shrines, and became subservient to elves, locking up its own citizens. The Empire now is not Talos' Empire, it's the Dominion's.

      "And if Ulfric hates the Dominion so much why is he not attacking THEM instead of instigating a war with the Empire?"

      Because the Empire would arrest or kill him for eliciting the Wrath of the Empire's elven overlords. They would betray Ulfric again like they betrayed the Redguards.

      "There's a Thalmor Embassy in Skyrim. Why doesn't he attack it? Why doesn't he raid that Thalmor prison and free captured Talos worshippers? Why did he turn this into a fight against the Empire?."

      Ulfric does all those things in a Stormcloak victory.


      "Ulfric doesn't kneel to lick boots, Dominon and Imperial alike? He sold out the Imperial City under torture despite his claims of Nord honor and valor and when he was first captured by General Tullius just prior to the start of the game, he quietly surrenders rather than fight for "Victory or Sovngarde!" ."

      Being captured is no shame. You're a little out of line, trivializing the sacrifices of soldiers who fought in war and were pows. Most men would give up after being tortured by the enemy and having their nation that they shed blood for betray them like that. But Ulfric continues to fight, for the safety of his people, instead of an Empire who sells his people out in order to curry favor with their elven overlords.

      "And if the The Imps have shown to kneel to lick Dominon boots, then why there's a cold war going on right now between the Empire and the Thalmor?"

      Seems like the Imps are fighting this cold war wrong if they invite Thalmor Justicars into their lands to persecute their citizens, fund rebellions, and sabatoge them at every turn.

      "Ulfric respects Nord culture? He Disrespects the Moot"

      Ulfric makes the Moot an actual moot instead of theater for the Empire to handpick their next puppet king. He also says himself that his throne is the throne of Ysgramor, the throne of his father. Ulfric only wishes to prove worthy of that honor.


      "As for the Redguards forging an alliance with Skyrim, Did you know the Redguards and Nords fought against each other during War of Bend'r-Mahk some 600 years ago?"

      Who cares, this is 600 years ago. In not even a decade, the Empire just sold the Redguards' lands to the Dominion to save their own skins and invited the Thalmor to abduct and torture Talos worshipping Nords in order to be in the Dominion's good graces. they both have common enemies and mutual interests: destruction of the Empire and the Dominion, and also their independence. If we're going to have a good debate, at least make rational sense.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:1. Yes Talos is also Ysmir so case closed. Don't know why you continue to shout that Talos is an Imp god when you agree with me he's a nord god.


      2. Why would I care what Balgruuf thinks? He only cares about enriching himself, he threw away his honor when he sold his people out in order to get more Imperial coin because of Whiterun's economic failures. Balgruuf is nothing but a mercenary who cares only about enriching himself and Whiterun's coffers. When the Dominion destroys the Empire, he'll be the first to kneel before the elven overlords. Atleast if you side with the Empire, Ulfric died with a sword in his hand, Balgruuf went into exile with his tail between his legs. And despite hating on the Talos ban, he stays his togue like a coward because he's too afraid fight for his beliefs. The Sheeple only like him because he's non-confrontational, and even if he's a two-faced coward, his honey words are able to fool those who think he's such a great leader.



      3. Talos would get his vengence for the Imps blasphemy? If anything, both Akatosh and Talos would be opposed to Ulfric: Akatosh is very specifically the Patron God of the Empire, while Talos is its Founder.


      4. Because the Empire would arrest or kill him like they betrayed the Redguards.



      5. Ulfric does all those things in a Stormcloak victory.


      6. Being captured is no shame. You're a little out of line, trivializing the sacrifices of soldiers who fought in war and were pows. Most men would give up after being tortured by the enemy and having their nation that they shed blood for betray them like that. But Ulfric continues to fight, for the safety of his people, instead of an Empire who sells his people out in order to curry favor with their elven overlords.



      7. Seems like the Imps are fighting this cold war wrong if they invite Thalmor Justicars into their lands to persecute their citizens, fund rebellions, and sabatoge them at every turn.


      8. Who cares, this is 600 years ago. In not even a decade, the Empire just sold the Redguards' lands to the Dominion to save their own skins and invited the Thalmor to abduct and torture Talos worshipping Nords in order to be in the Dominion's good graces. they both have common enemies and mutual interests: destruction of the Empire and the Dominion, and also their independence. If we're going to have a good debate, at least make rational sense.

      1. Talos isn't a Nordic God, Ysmir is a Nordic God.

      2. Balgruuf is one of the examples of Ulfric's politics, Balgruuf want what's best for his people, no war. Whiterun isn't the only Hold with economic problems, Haafingar, Eastmarch, The Rift and Hjaalmarch also have trouble with money, while Falkreath and The Reach are having problems with provisions. Balgruuf is what keeps the Thalmor, Empire and Stormcloaks out of Whiterun, Whiterun is the best City and Hold in Skyrim during 4E 201.

      3. Akatosh backs the Empire and Ulfric would make Talos turn in his grave.

      4. Like they are trying to do just now? Ulfric's puny rebellion would've gotten bad-blood with the Empire regardless of who they attacked, so, why not aim for the Thalmor instead?

      5. No he doesn't, he speaks of it. But how much is Ulfric's word worth after he betrayed the people he gave his word to twice?

      6. Ulfric wasn't betrayed and surrendered to the Empire. He didn't use his Thu'um during the Great War either. Ulfric cares nothing for the safety of his people. Remember Blood on the Ice?

      7. They didn't invite anybody in, the Thalmor got to know of Ulfric's little request for Talos worship because Ulfric was a Thalmor agent. Then they came to Skyrim, demanded him to be arrested or a new War to be started. The Empire funds rebellions in Valenwood, not in Skyrim. 

      8. Unlike with the Empire, who sold lands already conqeured, the Nords still hold these 2 cities. I do hope you realise that, if it weren't for that Forebear army of Sentinel, Hammerfell's government would have fallen. Hammerfell had 2 cities left, with one besieged, at the height of Dominion power during the Great War. The Redguards are very protective of their territory (hence why they refused to sell the lands despite them being conqeured by the Dominion) they wouldn't care how long ago it was, they'd still be pissed. The Empire didn't invite the Thalmor, Ulfric did. The Redguards acknowledge that the Empire is needed to defeat the Dominion, they never claimed they seek to destroy it.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:
      Yes Talos is also Ysmir so case closed. Don't know why you continue to shout that Talos is an Imp god when you agree with me he's a nord god.

      Are you this natural stupid or it's just me? Give me EVIDENCES that Talos is a nordic god.

      Why would I care what Balgruuf thinks? He only cares about enriching himself, he threw away his honor when he sold his people out in order to get more Imperial coin because of Whiterun's economic failures. Balgruuf is nothing but a mercenary who cares only about enriching himself and Whiterun's coffers. When the Dominion destroys the Empire, he'll be the first to kneel before the elven overlords. Atleast if you side with the Empire, Ulfric died with a sword in his hand, Balgruuf went into exile with his tail between his legs. And despite hating on the Talos ban, he stays his togue like a coward because he's too afraid fight for his beliefs. The Sheeple only like him because he's non-confrontational, and even if he's a two-faced coward, his honeyed words are able to fool those who think he's such a great leader.

      Do you play Skyrim or did you watch someone playing for 15 minutes?

      The Empire that denies Talos' divinity, shut down Talos' shrines, and became subservient to elves, locking up its own citizens. The Empire now is not Talos' Empire, it's the Dominion's.

      I'm going to say again. Ulfric is the cause of the entire Talos ban being enforced in Skyrim, prior to the Markarth Incident there weren't any Thalmor in Skyrim.

      Because the Empire would arrest or kill him for eliciting the Wrath of the Empire's elven overlords. They would betray Ulfric again like they betrayed the Redguards.

      Hammerfell didn’t agree with the Empire either but they didn’t start killing Imperials or standing on soap boxes claiming they no longer NEEDED the Empire, they just kept fighting the Dominion.

      Ulfric does all those things in a Stormcloak victory.

      Are you trolling me?

      Being captured is no shame. You're a little out of line, trivializing the sacrifices of soldiers who fought in war and were pows. Most men would give up after being tortured by the enemy and having their nation that they shed blood for betray them like that. But Ulfric continues to fight, for the safety of his people, instead of an Empire who sells his people out in order to curry favor with their elven overlords.

      Being captured is no shame but surrender without fighting is and Ulfric did that TWICE. Also The Empire traded their pride for the lives of its people, and in exchange all they had to do was not openly worship a specific god. For every 1 person dragged off an tortured, there's at least another dozen who are alive and well because of those terms. It's horrible that it happens, but countless innocents were saved.

      Seems like the Imps are fighting this cold war wrong if they invite Thalmor Justicars into their lands to persecute their citizens, fund rebellions, and sabatoge them at every turn.

      You can blame Ulfric for that for the reasons I mentioned before.

      Ulfric makes the Moot an actual moot instead of theater for the Empire to handpick their next puppet king. He also says himself that his throne is the throne of Ysgramor, the throne of his father. Ulfric only wishes to prove worthy of that honor.

      And Ulfric proved that he worthy of being a High King by murdering Torygg. And don't waste your time by telling me "it wasn't murder, it was fair combat in an old nordic custom". A High King is chosen by a moot, not by "old nordic custom" combat. Or do you want a bandit ruling Skyrim after killing the previous High King in an "old nordic custom" combat?

      Who cares, this is 600 years ago. In not even a decade, the Empire just sold the Redguards' lands to the Dominion to save their own skins and invited the Thalmor to abduct and torture Talos worshipping Nords in order to be in the Dominion's good graces. they both have common enemies and mutual interests: destruction of the Empire and the Dominion, and also their independence. If we're going to have a good debate, at least make rational sense.

      The Dominion defeated the Empire when Skyrim, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil and High Rock were fighting together. What makes you think that only Skyrim and Hammerfell can defeat them? Large portions of Hammerfell were ravaged in the process of Dominion incursions. The dragons and the civil war have damaged the infrastructure and economy of Skyrim beyond belief, caused civil unrest, freezed up trade, allowed the reorganization of dangerous criminal activity, and so on. Explain to me your idea of how this all works out, and don't just say things like "Hammerfell will join Skyrim" and leave it at that. Explain to me how these two provinces can defeat a Dominion host once they don't have men and resources to do so. One more thing, Hammerfell does not despise the Empire, they seceded as they could not accept the terms of the Concordat.

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Yes Talos is also Ysmir so case closed. Don't know why you continue to shout that Talos is an Imp god when you agree with me he's a nord god.

      Give me EVIDENCES that Talos is a nordic god.

      I don't have time to address all your points but I will address this. Tiber Septim was the last purported immigrant from Atmora, who was said to have left the continent in his youth during the Second Era. As sourced by the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil. Atmora bred the Nords. Before he became Tiber Septime, he was known as Hjalti Early-Beard or General Talos Stormcrown. Does that name sound like an Imperial name to you? Furthermore, Hjalti's Sword is an ancient nord sword. Not an Imperial.

      Second, watch how you speak to me. I've been civil and speaking to you like a human being, but call me stupid or throw any of your juvenile ad homien attacks at me again and this conversation is done and you will be reported.

      "I'm going to say again. Ulfric is the cause of the entire Talos ban being enforced in Skyrim, prior to the Markarth Incident there weren't any Thalmor in Skyrim."

      I'm going to tell you what I told the others in the other Imperials vs Stormcloaks thread that blamed the enforcement ban on Ulfric:

      To say that the Empire did not "enforce the ban on Talos" because they didn't arrest people who got caught seems like a ridiculous notion to me. It's like saying the guards are emphatically encouraging me to murder and steal so long as I don't get caught. I doubt that is truly the case. The Empire shut down the public shrines, and locked up anyone who preached the religion of Talos like poor Heimskr. This is explicitly enforcing the ban, case closed. Furthermore, publishing The Talos Mistake is going beyond what is necessary to appease the elves. They signed the damn treaty, acting as the Domninion's mouthpiece is completely unnecessary- which further highlights either their weakness or their subservience.

      2. Shifting the blame on Ulfric for the presence of the Thalmor in Skyrim is a complete misdirect of the Empire's role in allowing them to enforce the Talos ban. The Markath Incident is just a convenient excuse for the Dominion, but even if it had not occurred, they could have easily highlighted any public Talos worship that happened as an excuse to bring Thalmor to Skyrim. They could have used Heimskr or planted a Forsworn as their own agent posing as a public Talos preacher as an excuse to enforce the ban and the Empire would still appease them by letting them into Skyrim because they are weak; if they were too weak to deny the Thalmor after the Markath Incident, they would still be too weak to deny them at any time. Thus, the Empire is responsible for the Thalmor's presence in Skyrim.

      3. We could play blame game but the real issue is who's solution is best for the next war with the Aldmeri Dominion. Currently, the Stormcloaks would drive out the Thalmor presence by force. The Imperials would continue to appease the elves and allow them to stay in Skyrim. Whether you support the Imperials to avenge a slight by the Storkcloaks or not, it's still making a choice to support Thalmor presence and influence in Skyrim by supporting the Empire against the Stormcloaks. Personally, I fail to see how that's a good thing.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      1. I don't have time to address all your points but I will address this. Tiber Septim was the last purported immigrant from Atmora, who was said to have left the continent in his youth during the Second Era. As sourced by the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil. Atmora bred the Nords. Before he became Tiber Septime, he was known as Hjalti Early-Beard or General Talos Stormcrown. Does that name sound like an Imperial name to you? Furthermore, Hjalti's Sword is an ancient nord sword. Not an Imperial.

      2. Second, watch how you speak to me. I've been civil and speaking to you like a human being, but call me stupid or throw any of your juvenile ad homien attacks at me again and this conversation is done and you will be reported.

      1. During the Second Era Atmora was already a long-dead frozen wasteland. The PGGTTE, First Edition isn't that reliable, especially not with Tiber Septim. There's more evidence of him being Breton than anything else. Names don't say everything. Hjalti commanded Nordic soldiers, does it surprise you he had a Nordic sword?

      2. If we're going to have a good debate, at least make rational sense. -you

      Idc if you talk to Shig, I'll respond to back him.

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    • It depends on the character. Usually my main account for lack of a better term sides with the Stormcloaks. My Reasoning: A Stormcloak victory would be way more interesting than an Imperial one. I know that's probably a dumb reason, but Ulfric's kicking out the Empire would further divide Tamriel and alter the political landscape for many generations to come.

      The Empire had been ruling Tamriel for almost all the TES Games. It's the fourth era, why not shuffle the playing board a little bit?

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    • Blizzard1289 wrote:
      It depends on the character. Usually my main account for lack of a better term sides with the Stormcloaks. My Reasoning: A Stormcloak victory would be way more interesting than an Imperial one. I know that's probably a dumb reason, but Ulfric's kicking out the Empire would further divide Tamriel and alter the political landscape for many generations to come.

      The Empire had been ruling Tamriel for almost all the TES Games. It's the fourth era, why not shuffle the playing board a little bit?

      This is litterally one of the only legitimate reasons I see for joining the Stormcloaks.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      1. I don't have time to address all your points but I will address this. Tiber Septim was the last purported immigrant from Atmora, who was said to have left the continent in his youth during the Second Era. As sourced by the Pocket Guide to the Empire, First Edition: Cyrodiil. Atmora bred the Nords. Before he became Tiber Septime, he was known as Hjalti Early-Beard or General Talos Stormcrown. Does that name sound like an Imperial name to you? Furthermore, Hjalti's Sword is an ancient nord sword. Not an Imperial.

      2. Second, watch how you speak to me. I've been civil and speaking to you like a human being, but call me stupid or throw any of your juvenile ad homien attacks at me again and this conversation is done and you will be reported.

      1. During the Second Era Atmora was already a long-dead frozen wasteland. The PGGTTE, First Edition isn't that reliable, especially not with Tiber Septim. There's more evidence of him being Breton than anything else. Names don't say everything. Hjalti commanded Nordic soldiers, does it surprise you he had a Nordic sword?

      2. If we're going to have a good debate, at least make rational sense. -you

      Idc if you talk to Shim, I'll respond to back him.

      1. The evidence I provided is valid. Whether you choose to believe it or are too stuborn to is up to you.

      2. That wasn't a personal attack, his rationalization that the Redguards love the Empire is a product of his own bias, not of the realities of the context of the story. To say that they don't feel that the Empire's abandonment of the Redguards against the Dominion isn't a betrayal to them is part of his bias. To deny that resentment against the Empire and the Dominon isn't a commonality between the Stormcloaks and the Redguards is a delusion of his bias. To cite bad blood 600 years ago to say their is some alleged friction between Nords and Redguards is obviously a delusion of his bias. He literally wasn't making rational sense. Furthermore, the Redguards are no where saying they need the Empire, that is also a product of Imperial bias headcanon. "Blademaster Jauffre is a big giant pussy that that acts all tough and thinks he's part of a fictional imperial legion" is a personal attack. See the difference?

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      1. The evidence I provided is valid. Whether you choose to believe it or are too stuborn to is up to you.

      2. That wasn't a personal attack, his rationalization that the Redguards love the Empire is a product of his own bias, not of the realities of the context of the story. Furthermore, the Redguards are no where saying they need the Empire, that is also a product of Imperial bias headcanon. "Blademaster Jauffre is a big giant pussy that that acts all tough and thinks he's part of a fictional imperial legion" is a personal attack. See the difference?

      1. The First Ed. of the PGGE is very inaccurate. But if you want to play this game, go ahead.

      The more recently created holidays of High Rock are those like Tibedetha, "Tibers Day," celebrated every 24th of Mid Year in honor of Alcaire's most famous, son, Tiber Septim. -Holidays of the Iliac Bay

      Hjalti was from the island kingdom of Alcaire, in High Rock, and would becomeTiber Septim, the First Emperor of Tamriel. - The Arcturian Heresy

      Remember our lessons from the sword masters of Alcaire? -Ghost of Old Hroldan

      Now, as for his race:

      This image for one: https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1600&bih=794&q=Tiber+Septim+statue&oq=Tiber+Septim+statue&gs_l=img.3...245.2786.0.3447.19.14.0.1.0.0.234.1546.3j6j2.11.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..8.9.1161...0j0i30k1j0i5i30k1j0i8i30k1.rTi1J8z11tM#imgrc=_

      This book for another:

      'Tiber Septim was nothing like the grim, grey, giant warrior she'd pictured. He was of average height, fully half a head shorter than tallSymmachus, although he was well-knit of figure and lithe of movement. He had a winning smile, bright—indeed piercing—blue eyes, and a full head of stark white hair above a lined and weathered face. He might have been any age from forty to sixty. -The Real Barenziah, Book III

      His name says nothing, remember Lucien Lachance ? An Imperial with a Breton name. Or what about Wulf ? An Imperial with a Nord name?

      2. Countless Redguards still support the Empire, you can even see them in Skyrim, where they are locally recruited. 

      The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. -The Great War

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    • You can not post images in the forums per the TES Wiki image policy.

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    • The Cat Master wrote:
      You can not post images in the forums per the TES Wiki image policy.

      Tbh, I had no clue that posting the linkt to an image would open it instantly.

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    • Blizzard1289 wrote:
      It depends on the character. Usually my main account for lack of a better term sides with the Stormcloaks. My Reasoning: A Stormcloak victory would be way more interesting than an Imperial one. I know that's probably a dumb reason, but Ulfric's kicking out the Empire would further divide Tamriel and alter the political landscape for many generations to come.

      The Empire had been ruling Tamriel for almost all the TES Games. It's the fourth era, why not shuffle the playing board a little bit?

      It is indeed more interesting. It will not necessarily create a weaker human side but definitely more interesting and with much more potential. I mean the disunity of the Empire is already obvious. Take the most recent 30 years as an example.

      1. There are Redguards who have different opinion from the leaders of the Empire in the subject of whether the Empire can or cannot defeat the Aldmeri Dominion during the Great War. Which was why they say that the White Gold Concordat was unnecessary and had Pussy Mede II kept his nerve the Aldmeri Dominion could have been truly defeated by the combined force of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. While the Empire (Mede and his Imperial Generals specially) believes that was their limit. They can't fight anymore.

      2. Now there is Ulfric Stormcloak who has a sizable number of people in Skyrim rallied behind him believing that they are better off without the cowardly evil Empire. I am not going to touch on intentions of Ulfric Stormcloak, I am focused on the fact that there are more than just an Ulfric who wants nothing to do with the Empire.

      I think the Empire is not just physically split up, its will has been split into several pieces for quite some time already. Splitting it up with a Stormcloak Victory wouldn't change things too much to be frank.

      I think the provinces splitting for a time being might even be a good thing for the Empire. They can commit all their resources into strengthening Cyrodiil and High Rock. I am not going to touch on the advantages in details but there are a lot of pros that was previously not available. The only problem is the Imperials has been ruling all of Tamriel too long, their head might have gotten so bloated with pride that they are far too unlikely to see the advantages of a tactical retreat of some sorts.

      (A side note: my words of choosing are just humorous and perhaps poor attempts to mimic the tone of the said groups of people towards the empire. In this case, the Redguards who blames or feel betrayed by the Empire in Hammerfell and the people who sides with the Stormcloaks in Skyrim, they do not represent my opinion on the matter at all)

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    • Name=/=race. Name sounds in TES are a guideline, not an absolute rule. Brand-Shei is a Dunmer, but has an Argonian sounding name. Hathrasil and Belethor are Bretons with Bosmer sounding names rather than the usual French. Aloys and Glenroy are Imperials with Breton sounding names instead of Latin, and the list goes on. 

      As to Tiber's race, every example we get contradicts the others. In one Bethesda-written IL article, they say he's a Breton. In another, they say he's an Atmoran. In Redguard he's an Imperial, one could even say a Redguard, due to his dark skin colour. It's practically a Bethesda inside joke by now to change his race every so often to screw with us.

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    • Just finished playing the both paths with my lvl 90 nord assassin so, let me say what i learned.

      Stormcloaks: First path, emotional one, nord one.

      Ulfric seems good on the begining, with all that talk but you'll see on the progress of the missions that he just wanna the throne of skyrim and is racist (skyrim just for the nords). Some people say that he is a puppet of the thalmor... They treat their army with love (the nord part of the army). Galmor, his right arm, is, in my opinion, better than him, with the passion for the country and it's people. On the final act when you finish the charge on solitude, it seems like Ulfric don't know what he's doing but you're wrong. Ulfric is an excelent estrategist, leaving Torygg widow alive, "an act of mercy". With all this mayhem, skyrim get weeker and it's about to torn appart in some ways.

      Imperials: Second path, logical one, all races.

      You don't really wanna to join that because of the begining of the game but it's the most logical one. Lore wise, the Imperials are trying just to honor the treat they made with the Thalmor because of the war with the Stormcloaks. They treat they army like just a resource. Legate Rikke, right arm of Tulius, seems a great person too, with the understand on the nord traditions and honor in battle. On the final act when you finish the charge on windhelm, seems like Tulius know everything he's talking about but you're wrong. He says that this was just a problem but Skyrim, in a near future, would need to call to arms again for a stronger enemy (thalmor).

      I really think the stormlord armor is the best looking but if you go imperial side you can get more than one from your killed enemies on the defense of Whiterun. The rest of the loot, is the same. I'm playing a selfish and vile character so the more loot is where he's going but in this case, the loot is the same. I don't really know why someone (after playing both paths) would still go with the stormcloaks but, see for yourself, go both too :D

      • Just a tip, before finishing any of the paths, one of the first quests you should do should be Blood on the Ice cause it's one of the most bugged quest on the entire game and the civil war is likely the most easy way to bug it and you'll not be able to buy Hjerin, the house on windhelm.
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    • Draevan13 wrote: Name=/=race. Name sounds in TES are a guideline, not an absolute rule. Brand-Shei is a Dunmer, but has an Argonian sounding name. Hathrasil and Belethor are Bretons with Bosmer sounding names rather than the usual French. Aloys and Glenroy are Imperials with Breton sounding names instead of Latin, and the list goes on. 

      As to Tiber's race, every example we get contradicts the others. In one Bethesda-written IL article, they say he's a Breton. In another, they say he's an Atmoran. In Redguard he's an Imperial, one could even say a Redguard, due to his dark skin colour. It's practically a Bethesda inside joke by now to change his race every so often to screw with us.

      I can't wait for the Argonian Tiber Septim story!

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      1. The evidence I provided is valid. Whether you choose to believe it or are too stuborn to is up to you.

      2. That wasn't a personal attack, his rationalization that the Redguards love the Empire is a product of his own bias, not of the realities of the context of the story. Furthermore, the Redguards are no where saying they need the Empire, that is also a product of Imperial bias headcanon. "Blademaster Jauffre is a big giant pussy that that acts all tough and thinks he's part of a fictional imperial legion" is a personal attack. See the difference?

      1. The First Ed. of the PGGE is very inaccurate. But if you want to play this game, go ahead.

      The more recently created holidays of High Rock are those like Tibedetha, "Tibers Day," celebrated every 24th of Mid Year in honor of Alcaire's most famous, son, Tiber Septim. -Holidays of the Iliac Bay

      Hjalti was from the island kingdom of Alcaire, in High Rock, and would becomeTiber Septim, the First Emperor of Tamriel. - The Arcturian Heresy

      Remember our lessons from the sword masters of Alcaire? -Ghost of Old Hroldan

      Now, as for his race:

      This image for one: https://www.google.nl/search?hl=nl&site=imghp&tbm=isch&source=hp&biw=1600&bih=794&q=Tiber+Septim+statue&oq=Tiber+Septim+statue&gs_l=img.3...245.2786.0.3447.19.14.0.1.0.0.234.1546.3j6j2.11.0....0...1ac.1.64.img..8.9.1161...0j0i30k1j0i5i30k1j0i8i30k1.rTi1J8z11tM#imgrc=_

      This book for another:

      'Tiber Septim was nothing like the grim, grey, giant warrior she'd pictured. He was of average height, fully half a head shorter than tallSymmachus, although he was well-knit of figure and lithe of movement. He had a winning smile, bright—indeed piercing—blue eyes, and a full head of stark white hair above a lined and weathered face. He might have been any age from forty to sixty. -The Real Barenziah, Book III

      His name says nothing, remember Lucien Lachance ? An Imperial with a Breton name. Or what about Wulf ? An Imperial with a Nord name?

      2. Countless Redguards still support the Empire, you can even see them in Skyrim, where they are locally recruited. 

      The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire. -The Great War

      Fine how about this. From Nords Arise!:

      The empire tells us we cannot worship holy Talos. How can man set aside a god? How can a true Nord of Skyrim cast aside the god that rose from our own heartland? Mighty Tiber Septim, himself the first emperor, conqueror of all Tamriel, ascended to godhood to sit at the right hand of Akatosh. Tiber Septim, a true son of Skyrim, born in the land of snow and blood, bred to the honor of our people, is now Talos, god of might and honor. The Empire has no right to tell us we cannot worship him.

      Doesn't matter what race he actually was, the Nords consider them as one of their own and the question was if Talos was a Nord diety, this is evidence he is. Now the fact that the Imps think they can dictate the faith of a man, whether it be Nord or otherwise, is being a racist prick that deserves a sword in the gut.

      2. That quote doesn't say they support the Empire, they said the Empire could have won the war if they kept fighting. Another quote from The Great War (Book):

      Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Fine how about this. From Nords Arise!:

      The empire tells us we cannot worship holy Talos. How can man set aside a god? How can a true Nord of Skyrim cast aside the god that rose from our own heartland? Mighty Tiber Septim, himself the first emperor, conqueror of all Tamriel, ascended to godhood to sit at the right hand of Akatosh. Tiber Septim, a true son of Skyrim, born in the land of snow and blood, bred to the honor of our people, is now Talos, god of might and honor. The Empire has no right to tell us we cannot worship him.

      Doesn't matter what race he actually was, the Nords consider them as one of their own and the question was if Talos was a Nord diety, this is evidence he is. Now the fact that the Imps think they can dictate the faith of a man, whether it be Nord or otherwise, is being a racist prick that deserves a sword in the gut.

      2. That quote doesn't say they support the Empire, they said the Empire could have won the war if they kept fighting. Another quote from The Great War (Book):

      Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.

      1. It's only the Nordic POV that Talos was an Atmoran. Not to forget, that book you picked up was written in the Fourth Era and isn't about Talos himself, most likely not the most reliable source. 

      Except that Talos ins't a Nordic deity. Look at Varieties of Faith in the Empire. Just because the Nords worship him doesn't mean he's a Nordic deity. That's like saying that Mars is a Gaulic deity because when Rome conqeured Gaul they had to worship him.

      2. I never said they support the Empire, just that they acknowledge that the Empire is needed to truly defeat the Dominion.

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    • Blizzard1289 wrote:

      Draevan13 wrote: Name=/=race. Name sounds in TES are a guideline, not an absolute rule. Brand-Shei is a Dunmer, but has an Argonian sounding name. Hathrasil and Belethor are Bretons with Bosmer sounding names rather than the usual French. Aloys and Glenroy are Imperials with Breton sounding names instead of Latin, and the list goes on. 

      As to Tiber's race, every example we get contradicts the others. In one Bethesda-written IL article, they say he's a Breton. In another, they say he's an Atmoran. In Redguard he's an Imperial, one could even say a Redguard, due to his dark skin colour. It's practically a Bethesda inside joke by now to change his race every so often to screw with us.

      I can't wait for the Argonian Tiber Septim story!

      No no, an ALTMER. Then watch the Nords' heads explode, and Thalmor freak out as they try to backtrack on the whole "Talos isn't a God!" shtick XD

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Fine how about this. From Nords Arise!:

      The empire tells us we cannot worship holy Talos. How can man set aside a god? How can a true Nord of Skyrim cast aside the god that rose from our own heartland? Mighty Tiber Septim, himself the first emperor, conqueror of all Tamriel, ascended to godhood to sit at the right hand of Akatosh. Tiber Septim, a true son of Skyrim, born in the land of snow and blood, bred to the honor of our people, is now Talos, god of might and honor. The Empire has no right to tell us we cannot worship him.

      Doesn't matter what race he actually was, the Nords consider them as one of their own and the question was if Talos was a Nord diety, this is evidence he is. Now the fact that the Imps think they can dictate the faith of a man, whether it be Nord or otherwise, is being a racist prick that deserves a sword in the gut.

      2. That quote doesn't say they support the Empire, they said the Empire could have won the war if they kept fighting. Another quote from The Great War (Book):

      Hammerfell, however, refused to accept the White-Gold Concordat, being unwilling to concede defeat and the loss of so much of their territory. Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal. In this, the Thalmor certainly achieved one of their long-term goals by sowing lasting bitterness between Hammerfell and the Empire.

      1. It's only the Nordic POV that Talos was an Atmoran. Not to forget, that book you picked up was written in the Fourth Era and isn't about Talos himself, most likely not the most reliable source. 

      Except that Talos ins't a Nordic deity. Look at Varieties of Faith in the Empire. Just because the Nords worship him doesn't mean he's a Nordic deity. That's like saying that Mars is a Gaulic deity because when Rome conqeured Gaul they had to worship him.

      2. I never said they support the Empire, just that they acknowledge that the Empire is needed to truly defeat the Dominion.

      1. The issue isn't if Talos is a Nord, the issue is if the Nords consider Talos a Nord diety in which they do. case closed.

      2. If they acknowledge that the Empire is truly needed to defeat the Dominion than they would be part of the Empire at this moment. They aren't so you are even wrong about that.

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    • Talos' race and identity was deliberately left as an unknown. Some people call Talos a Nord, some call him Imperial, others call him Atmorans and some call him a Breton. What if, Talos is in fact all of them?

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      1. The issue isn't if Talos is a Nord, the issue is if the Nords consider Talos a Nord diety in which they do. case closed.

      2. If they acknowledge that the Empire is truly needed to defeat the Dominion than they would be part of the Empire at this moment. They aren't so you are even wrong about that.

      1. No they don't. Talos isn't a Nord deity.

      2. No, that doesn't prove anything. The Redguards left the Empire because they felt betrayed, doesn't mean they don't acknowledge the fact that they need the Empire to defeat the Dominion.

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    • Blizzard1289 wrote:

      I can't wait for the Argonian Tiber Septim story!

      I suspect there is a version of Tiber Septim for every race that will ultimately claim Tiber Septim to be their race.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:
      Blizzard1289 wrote:

      I can't wait for the Argonian Tiber Septim story!

      I suspect there is a version of Tiber Septim for every race that will ultimately claim Tiber Septim to be their race.

      ... and thus "Tamriel War One" starts!

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    • Tamriel has always been in a state of "semi-Tamriel war one"

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    • Come on it's just a freakimg game. Everyone needs to stop being so defensive. BTW I side with the empire because ulfrics a racist ignorant fool and he's just in it for the throne.

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    • It's actually two or three people that made this string of comments so long and toxic.

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    • I'm Pro-Stormcloak because elves shouldn't be telling people who they can or can't worship.

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    • 165.138.41.121 wrote:
      I'm Pro-Stormcloak because elves shouldn't be telling people who they can or can't worship.


      What a noble reason, I'll only be Pro-Stormcloak or Pro-Imperials base on which kind of people I want to piss off for lolz. Seeing how either victory will ultimately still result in Skyrim, Cyrodiil, Hammerfell and High Rock being hostile to the Aldmeri Dominion. I'm leaning more towards preparing the war against them so I can gain more credit in the upcoming war to obtain more power and influence in the human Empires. Yeah, sounds like I am power hungry like Ulfric, except I am smarter about it and I am more greedy because I want money too and honest about it.

      Besides it is more realistic that way. I cannot care any less about Ulfric, the Mede Dynasty or the traitors calling traitors traitors. I am the Last Dragonborn. I can do whatever I deem fit. If you don't like it, Bend Will! You'll love it.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:


      Seeing how either victory will ultimately still result in Skyrim, Cyrodiil, Hammerfell and High Rock being hostile to the Aldmeri Dominion.

      Probably because they hate all humans, whether Stormcloak, Imperial, or neither. Human=bad for them.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Probably because they hate all humans, whether Stormcloak, Imperial, or neither. Human=bad for them.

      Oh really?! I don't know that! (Im just trolling now) That is so enlightening!!! Seriously, I don't care. Humans = Bad for them?

      Good, let's serve them an excessive amount of Humans! I'll be rolling around laughing at both sides. Because I can and I will.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Oh really?! I don't know that! (Im just trolling now) That is so enlightening!!! Seriously, I don't care. Humans = Bad for them?

      Good, let's serve them an excessive amount of Humans! I'll be rolling around laughing at both sides. Because I can and I will.

      Yeah the Thalmor want to return Tamriel to the Merethic Era, when elves ruled over Tamriel and humans were their slaves.

      Also something about blaming Lorkhan for elves losing their immortality and that's somehow humanity's fault too.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Yeah the Thalmor want to return Tamriel to the Merethic Era, when elves ruled over Tamriel and humans were their slaves.

      Also something about blaming Lorkhan for elves losing their immortality and that's somehow humanity's fault too.

      Do you think I care? In Elder Scrolls, Merethic Era was more than 6000 years ago. Since being a slave is not appealing to me, I'll prepare for the war against the Aldmeri Dominion while the idiotic Imperials and Stormcloaks fight it out.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      165.138.41.121 wrote:
      I'm Pro-Stormcloak because elves shouldn't be telling people who they can or can't worship.


      What a noble reason, I'll only be Pro-Stormcloak or Pro-Imperials base on which kind of people I want to piss off for lolz. Seeing how either victory will ultimately still result in Skyrim, Cyrodiil, Hammerfell and High Rock being hostile to the Aldmeri Dominion. I'm leaning more towards preparing the war against them so I can gain more credit in the upcoming war to obtain more power and influence in the human Empires. Yeah, sounds like I am power hungry like Ulfric, except I am smarter about it and I am more greedy because I want money too and honest about it.

      Besides it is more realistic that way. I cannot care any less about Ulfric, the Mede Dynasty or the traitors calling traitors traitors. I am the Last Dragonborn. I can do whatever I deem fit. If you don't like it, Bend Will! You'll love it.

      Still... one side winning over the other is preferable to no side winning at all which is what the Thalmor wants.

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    • King Krool The Lord wrote:
      I've been a Stormcloak from the beginning, but I'd just like to see other opinions or reasons why.

      (My reason is simply that I don't like siding with the people who tried to decapitate me.)

      I agree with you on that it's like you would have Stockholm Syndrome it would. 

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    • Definitely imperias. Let's compare: the imperials think that Skyrim should be part of the empire and follow it's laws, while the stormcloaks think that Skyrim belongs only to the nords and that they do not need the help of any other province. Well, both are right and wrong in some aspects. For example: altough the stormcloaks are completely wrong in thinking that Skyrim only belongs to the nords (because what matters is not your race, but if you worry about the province's future or not), they are right when they say that a king should care more about it's people than to the interests of the emperor (in my opinion the emperor could try to help the king, but not have complete control over the king).

      And before we go deeper I wanna comment about two things: One- the fact that you were almost executed is not a excuse to join Ulfric because IT WAS NOT THE EMPIRE THAT ORDERED IT. "What? You gotta be kidding" but I am not, the one who ordered it was ONE IMPERIAL CAPTAIN ("but she was an imperial" sure, but you can find good guys and bad guys anywhere. I wonder why these people do not mention the fact that General Tullius shouted "GET THE TOWN'S PEOPLE TO SAFETY!" instead of hidding on a tower without helping anyone AS ULFRIC DID) and the only imperial authority that was near her at that moment was an inferior authority (General Tullius was too far away to hear what she said). Two- Ulfric may have killed Torygg on an honorable fight (the only explanation for Torygg being in Sovngarde), but Ulfric showed himself to not be a good leader by wanting to solve everything trough VIOLENCE. Ulfric could have just debated with Torygg and, as Torygg himself explains that he wanted to hear Ulfric's positions, Torygg could have become Ulfric's ally or maybe Torygg could show that Ulfric's way was not the best choice at that time. To always chose violence over debate makes you a dumb and savage individual that would be very dangerous while controlling an entire province.

      Now about the beginning of this: the Great War. Many people say that the empire joined the thalmor after the emperor became tired of fighting and gave up (in other words: they say that a man who had every chance to win a war would just give up after getting tired... fuck logic), when actually Titus Mede II refused the terms of the ultimatum in the first chance. He refused it when the Thalmor were capturing cyrodiilic cities. He refused it when the Thalmor invaded the Imperial City and he refused it when he took the Imperial City back after the Battle of the Red Ring. But although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. All the survivors were more than exausted. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Also many cyroddilic cities were under Thalmor control, the Imperial City was SACKED by the Aldmeri forces and the Thalmor, even without their MAIN army, did have armies left and it's soldiers were fit for duty. Without mentioning the fact that the Thalmor had tons of resources after the sack of the Imperial City and Alinor was untouched. "But the Redguards were able to take down the Thalmor" oh really? Actually not. Back in the Great War the redguards, unlike the imperials, did not fight the main Aldmeri army and the conflicts between them only ended with a PEACE TREATY and after the Thalmor left Hammerfell, the entire province became devasted and diminished EVEN IF THE THALMOR ONLY MANAGED TO INVADE IT'S SOUTHERN REGION, wich means the redguards were at the same level or even below the level of the Thalmor (because a whole province was not able to fully take down an army enemy soldiers that could not count on it's province of origin due to the distance between them in many years... and they even had a little help from the Bretons of High Rock). "But the Aldmeri Forces in Hammerfell were exausted when it happened" sure, but Hammerfell, altough independant, also became a devastated nation (as I said before). The Battle of the Red Ring also weakened the Dominion and made it easier gor the redguards to fight the altmer. This proves that the empire could not win the Great War and also proofs that the reason for the Thalmor presence in Skyrim are the Thalmor themselves.

      And now when the Empire is almost rebuilding itself enough to strike back and the peace between the Empire and the Thalmor may soon collapse (as is it revealed by General Tullius himself), the Stormcloaks help to weaken the Empire and give more chances to the Thalmor.

      By fighting the empire, the stormcloaks are helping in making it more and more weakned. And, as it is revealed by "Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak", the Thalmor actually released Ulfric because they knew he could start a rebellion that would keep the empire busy, and also would make it spend resources on a war against Ulfric's rebels, weakening it in the process.

      If the empire get's weakened enough and/or loses the war, it will only have Cyrodiil (whose cities and even the White-Gold Tower are not fully restored due to the Empire's effort to make the army strong enough to fight back), Morrowind (that is still damaged by the eruption of the Red Mountain and seems to be a bit unfriendly towards the Empire) and High Rock (that is small, so have a small amount of resources and soldiers). This will make the Empire weak enough for the Thalmor to attack and destroy it, or maybe even wait gor the Empire to collapse. But in both ways the Thalmor will be able to found a new empire and it won't be difficult to dominate the former imperial provinces.

      After this, the Thalmor will be able to do a suprise attack to Hammerfell from High Rock (North), from Cyrodiil (South) and from the sea (West). Having in mind that back in the Great War the redguards fought only a small amount of Thalmor soldiers (if compared to the number of soldiers that attacked Cyrodiil), that the conflicts between them only ended with a PEACE TREATY and that Hammerfell became a mess after it, the redguards were at the same level or even below the level of the Thalmor (because a whole province was not able to fully take down a small amount of enemy soldiers in many years). "But the Aldmeri Forces in Hammerfell were exausted when it happened" sure, but Hammerfell, altough independant, also became a devastated nation wich means that they would be even worse in trying ti fight the Thalmor. We should also note that in the Great War, Hammerfell was only invaded by the south.

      So there will be only one more province for the Thalmor to dominate: SKYRIM. The Thalmor will be able to do surprise attacks from every region (except from the sea), and having in mind that the Thalmor would have their superior magical knowledge and resources from almost every part of Tamriel at their sides, the stormcloaks, with their shitty military strategies, would be easily defeated, and Munds would be doomed.

      If the empire wins the war, however, it will have time to rebuild itself to finally be able to fight back (and the fact that the peace between the empire and the Thalmor may not last so longer only gives more hope). "But the empire will still opress the people of Skyrim and help the Thalmor to hunt down Talos worshippers" if you really thinks this is true, you should pay more attention. First- before the Great War, the empire did give the other provinces the freedom to have their own cultures and religions (and as I showed the White Gold Concordact was fault of the Thalmor, not of the empire) and I also find funny how those who say that do not give a single crap about the fact that Windhelm is the most racist city in the province. Second- have you ever seen a group of imperial soldiers walking next to a group of Thalmor officials? Of course not. In fact you will never find and imperial soldier on a place controlled by the Thalmor (not even in the quest to rescue Thorvald). And to end this with a holden key: if the imperials were helping the Thalmor, Heimskr would not be seen every freaking day in Whiterun SCREAMING ABOUT HOW THE EMPEROR IS A COWARD AND HOW THE THALMOR ARE TOTALITARIAN FOOLS.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Still... one side winning over the other is preferable to no side winning at all which is what the Thalmor wants.

      And if I want to choose one side winning subjectively I will pick the one with a higher chance based on statistics and in terms of statistics, Imperials beats the Stormcloaks hands down. Like stand about twice as much chance as the Stormcloaks do.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      Still... one side winning over the other is preferable to no side winning at all which is what the Thalmor wants.

      And if I want to choose one side winning subjectively I will pick the one with a higher chance based on statistics and in terms of statistics, Imperials beats the Stormcloaks hands down. Like stand about twice as much chance as the Stormcloaks do.

      Your statistics are based on your out of touch skewed interpretations of the political and military climate. May I be so bold as to say people who flock to the Empire because of an out of touch delusion of security don't take into account inconvenient variables that doesn't support their narrative? Will the Thalmor continue to undercut the Empire using its White Gold Concordant policies as an excuse, will the Empire fight as a cohesive unit against the Thalmor or will political resentment prevail and certain provinces backstab one another mid-war? Will the Thalmor allow the Empire to assemble a resistance, as the Thalmor in Markarth claims they hold all the power over the Empire? Your notions come from a bubble you surround yourself in, it's not credible.

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    • Goredovah wrote:
      Definitely imperias. Let's compare: the imperials think that Skyrim should be part of the empire and follow it's laws, while the stormcloaks think that Skyrim belongs only to the nords and that they do not need the help of any other province. Well, both are right and wrong in some aspects. For example: altough the stormcloaks are completely wrong in thinking that Skyrim only belongs to the nords (because what matters is not your race, but if you worry about the province's future or not), they are right when they say that a king should care more about it's people than to the interests of the emperor (in my opinion the emperor could try to help the king, but not have complete control over the king).

      And before we go deeper I wanna comment about two things: One- the fact that you were almost executed is not a excuse to join Ulfric because IT WAS NOT THE EMPIRE THAT ORDERED IT. "What? You gotta be kidding" but I am not, the one who ordered it was ONE IMPERIAL CAPTAIN ("but she was an imperial" sure, but you can find good guys and bad guys anywhere. I wonder why these people do not mention the fact that General Tullius shouted "GET THE TOWN'S PEOPLE TO SAFETY!" instead of hidding on a tower without helping anyone AS ULFRIC DID) and the only imperial authority that was near her at that moment was an inferior authority (General Tullius was too far away to hear what she said). Two- Ulfric may have killed Torygg on an honorable fight (the only explanation for Torygg being in Sovngarde), but Ulfric showed himself to not be a good leader by wanting to solve everything trough VIOLENCE. Ulfric could have just debated with Torygg and, as Torygg himself explains that he wanted to hear Ulfric's positions, Torygg could have become Ulfric's ally or maybe Torygg could show that Ulfric's way was not the best choice at that time. To always chose violence over debate makes you a dumb and savage individual that would be very dangerous while controlling an entire province.

      Now about the beginning of this: the Great War. Many people say that the empire joined the thalmor after the emperor became tired of fighting and gave up (in other words: they say that a man who had every chance to win a war would just give up after getting tired... fuck logic), when actually Titus Mede II refused the terms of the ultimatum in the first chance. He refused it when the Thalmor were capturing cyrodiilic cities. He refused it when the Thalmor invaded the Imperial City and he refused it when he took the Imperial City back after the Battle of the Red Ring. But although victorious, the Imperial armies were in no shape to continue the war. The entire remaining Imperial force was gathered in Cyrodiil, exhausted and decimated by the Battle of the Red Ring. Not a single legion had more than half its soldiers fit for duty. All the survivors were more than exausted. Two legions had been effectively annihilated, not counting the loss of the Eighth during the retreat from the Imperial City the previous year. Also many cyroddilic cities were under Thalmor control, the Imperial City was SACKED by the Aldmeri forces and the Thalmor, even without their MAIN army, did have armies left and it's soldiers were fit for duty. Without mentioning the fact that the Thalmor had tons of resources after the sack of the Imperial City and Alinor was untouched. "But the Redguards were able to take down the Thalmor" oh really? Actually not. Back in the Great War the redguards, unlike the imperials, did not fight the main Aldmeri army and the conflicts between them only ended with a PEACE TREATY and after the Thalmor left Hammerfell, the entire province became devasted and diminished EVEN IF THE THALMOR ONLY MANAGED TO INVADE IT'S SOUTHERN REGION, wich means the redguards were at the same level or even below the level of the Thalmor (because a whole province was not able to fully take down an army enemy soldiers that could not count on it's province of origin due to the distance between them in many years... and they even had a little help from the Bretons of High Rock). "But the Aldmeri Forces in Hammerfell were exausted when it happened" sure, but Hammerfell, altough independant, also became a devastated nation (as I said before). The Battle of the Red Ring also weakened the Dominion and made it easier gor the redguards to fight the altmer. This proves that the empire could not win the Great War and also proofs that the reason for the Thalmor presence in Skyrim are the Thalmor themselves.

      And now when the Empire is almost rebuilding itself enough to strike back and the peace between the Empire and the Thalmor may soon collapse (as is it revealed by General Tullius himself), the Stormcloaks help to weaken the Empire and give more chances to the Thalmor.

      By fighting the empire, the stormcloaks are helping in making it more and more weakned. And, as it is revealed by "Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak", the Thalmor actually released Ulfric because they knew he could start a rebellion that would keep the empire busy, and also would make it spend resources on a war against Ulfric's rebels, weakening it in the process.

      If the empire get's weakened enough and/or loses the war, it will only have Cyrodiil (whose cities and even the White-Gold Tower are not fully restored due to the Empire's effort to make the army strong enough to fight back), Morrowind (that is still damaged by the eruption of the Red Mountain and seems to be a bit unfriendly towards the Empire) and High Rock (that is small, so have a small amount of resources and soldiers). This will make the Empire weak enough for the Thalmor to attack and destroy it, or maybe even wait gor the Empire to collapse. But in both ways the Thalmor will be able to found a new empire and it won't be difficult to dominate the former imperial provinces.

      After this, the Thalmor will be able to do a suprise attack to Hammerfell from High Rock (North), from Cyrodiil (South) and from the sea (West). Having in mind that back in the Great War the redguards fought only a small amount of Thalmor soldiers (if compared to the number of soldiers that attacked Cyrodiil), that the conflicts between them only ended with a PEACE TREATY and that Hammerfell became a mess after it, the redguards were at the same level or even below the level of the Thalmor (because a whole province was not able to fully take down a small amount of enemy soldiers in many years). "But the Aldmeri Forces in Hammerfell were exausted when it happened" sure, but Hammerfell, altough independant, also became a devastated nation wich means that they would be even worse in trying ti fight the Thalmor. We should also note that in the Great War, Hammerfell was only invaded by the south.

      So there will be only one more province for the Thalmor to dominate: SKYRIM. The Thalmor will be able to do surprise attacks from every region (except from the sea), and having in mind that the Thalmor would have their superior magical knowledge and resources from almost every part of Tamriel at their sides, the stormcloaks, with their shitty military strategies, would be easily defeated, and Munds would be doomed.

      If the empire wins the war, however, it will have time to rebuild itself to finally be able to fight back (and the fact that the peace between the empire and the Thalmor may not last so longer only gives more hope). "But the empire will still opress the people of Skyrim and help the Thalmor to hunt down Talos worshippers" if you really thinks this is true, you should pay more attention. First- before the Great War, the empire did give the other provinces the freedom to have their own cultures and religions (and as I showed the White Gold Concordact was fault of the Thalmor, not of the empire) and I also find funny how those who say that do not give a single crap about the fact that Windhelm is the most racist city in the province. Second- have you ever seen a group of imperial soldiers walking next to a group of Thalmor officials? Of course not. In fact you will never find and imperial soldier on a place controlled by the Thalmor (not even in the quest to rescue Thorvald). And to end this with a holden key: if the imperials were helping the Thalmor, Heimskr would not be seen every freaking day in Whiterun SCREAMING ABOUT HOW THE EMPEROR IS A COWARD AND HOW THE THALMOR ARE TOTALITARIAN FOOLS.

      While my personal preference is to stay out of the Civil War as I can cause more damage to the Thalmor's position in Skyrim by investing my time more productively elsewhere.

      I have subjectively chosen the Imperials winning to have a better position than the Stormcloaks winning the civil war. There is a problem with your projection. The Aldmeri Dominion's victory over the Empire without Skyrim is not as certain as you seem to claim due to what seems to be result of you being far too emotionally invested in this argument of useless emotions. Imperials, Stormcloaks and Thalmor, they are not friends. The Imperials are representatives of the Mede Government. I don't believe they are doing for the good of Humanity or Empire. They just want to protect their interest. The Stormcloaks too, they can come up with any excuses to lie to themselves. I don't believe at all that the thought of ruling the country as High King never came across Ulfric's mind even once. 

      Why I don't care who wins is because the situation will remain more or less the same. Skyrim remains more or less away from the battlefield of the next War. I do not believe the Imperials or Stormcloaks in Skyrim have any chance to recover at all. The war will take place before Skyrim can recover at all. Both Stormcloaks and Imperials proved that they can put aside their differences to fight against a common enemy. Letting both survive by staying hands off, or hunting one side to near extinction is not much difference in the end. 

      Majority of the Stormcloaks wants to attack the Aldmeri Dominion as soon as possible. Only stupid Imperials will think they have a chance to recover, the smarter ones will know the Aldmeri Dominion will come pouring in again once the Civil War ends. They will come, more well-planned, more ruthless and stronger than ever before as they have fought the Empire once. 

      There is only one situation where it will truly benefit the Imperial victory which will also benefit the Stormcloak's victory just as much; The Last Dragonborn remains free after the events of the second DLC quest.

      Will place the Dominion in a horrific situation provided 4 conditions were met.

      1.The Dragonborn must be free at the end of Dragonborn DLC as stated above.

      2. Is a bonus, the Dragonborn have a very long lifespan either naturally (being Dunmer, Altmer or Bosmer) or via Magic.

      3.The Dragonborn must have amassed wealth, power and influence in Skyrim because there is no time to go other places to gain these.

      4.The Dragonborn must know what he is doing as he is required to become a Continent-Global scale Strategic Asset.

      4th is the most important condition, follow by 3rd. If you don't know what you're doing, giving you 1000 years lifespan or wealth greater than the Empire possess is useless as you can't make use of them properly. You will not become a Continent or Global Scale Strategic Asset when the war breaks out.  If the dragonborn knows what he was doing, even if he became a slave to Hermaeus Mora, he can easily prepare beforehand if you have 3rd condition met and still make a difference even in death.

      A brave soldier can kill a 1000 enemy in every battle. A wise Strategist can utterly destroy the Mind, Body and spirit by the millions even after he is dead.

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    • There are some issues with your points, Yingyang. The Aldmeri Dominion would easily defeat the empire without Skyrim as Morrowind is still devastated (or at least most of it) thanks to the eruption of the Red Mountain and the Dunmer are starting to not trust the empire, High Rock is very small and thus can not provide a decent amount of soldiers and resources. Cyrodiil and Skyrim are the pnly provinces that can actually help the empire to effectively rebuild itself, but without Skyrim the empire will have to take care of three provinces (one of them being almost devastated) while being only able to rebuild itself with the help of one of them (all of this without mentioning that in the Great War the Thalmor sacked the Imperial City and nearly destroyed it, so unlike Cyrodiil Skyrim was untouched by the Great War in this aspect).

      To say that the IMPERIAL LEGION is not fighting the rebels for the good of the EMPIRE is nonsense, for obvious reasons. Also if the imperials only did this due to their interests, they would not let the nords have their own culture and religion while living under imperial control and Mede would surely give Tullius the reinforcements requested by the general to easily end the rebellion. All of this without mentioning that the imperials never help the Thalmor to hunt down Talos worshippers (they did not do this even with Thorald Gray-Mane).

      Your ratiocination of letting both survive does not make sense, because the longer this war exists, the more weakned both the Empire and Skyrim will get (and Ulfric already showed many times that he is open to anything except crictiques). Also by saying this you show that you lack knowledge about the lore in this aspect, as if you read Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak it is stated that the Thalmor's position in Skyrim get's better each day the war goes on.

      Stupid imperials? Said the person who thinks that attacking equals winning. You said that the rebels will attack the Dominion as soon as possible, while they seem to not care about what happen's out of Skyrim and even if they do they will get easily defeated as the stormcloak army is anything but organized (each soldier wielding a different weapon) and efficient on the battlefield as they are barely able to make decent war strategies (the Haafingar Stormcloak camp is the best example of this). Indeed the Dominion's peace with the Empire is getting more fragile (as it is stated in the Thalmor party, by Odolemar if I am not wrong, and by Tullius himself if the empire wins the war), but with the empire there are more chances of winning because the imperial army is larger and more effective in the battlefield.

      The Dragonborn alone is no match for a whole aldmeri army (also because realistic combat does not resembles Skyrim's in game combat), and a wise person would always follow the path that leads to more chances of victory: and Imperial victory over Ulfric's rebels.

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    • Goredovah wrote:
      There are some issues with your points, Yingyang. The Aldmeri Dominion would easily defeat the empire without Skyrim as Morrowind is still devastated (or at least most of it) thanks to the eruption of the Red Mountain and the Dunmer are starting to not trust the empire, High Rock is very small and thus can not provide a decent amount of soldiers and resources. Cyrodiil and Skyrim are the pnly provinces that can actually help the empire to effectively rebuild itself, but without Skyrim the empire will have to take care of three provinces (one of them being almost devastated) while being only able to rebuild itself with the help of one of them (all of this without mentioning that in the Great War the Thalmor sacked the Imperial City and nearly destroyed it, so unlike Cyrodiil Skyrim was untouched by the Great War in this aspect).

      To say that the IMPERIAL LEGION is not fighting the rebels for the good of the EMPIRE is nonsense, for obvious reasons. Also if the imperials only did this due to their interests, they would not let the nords have their own culture and religion while living under imperial control and Mede would surely give Tullius the reinforcements requested by the general to easily end the rebellion. All of this without mentioning that the imperials never help the Thalmor to hunt down Talos worshippers (they did not do this even with Thorald Gray-Mane).

      Your ratiocination of letting both survive does not make sense, because the longer this war exists, the more weakned both the Empire and Skyrim will get (and Ulfric already showed many times that he is open to anything except crictiques). Also by saying this you show that you lack knowledge about the lore in this aspect, as if you read Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak it is stated that the Thalmor's position in Skyrim get's better each day the war goes on.

      Stupid imperials? Said the person who thinks that attacking equals winning. You said that the rebels will attack the Dominion as soon as possible, while they seem to not care about what happen's out of Skyrim and even if they do they will get easily defeated as the stormcloak army is anything but organized (each soldier wielding a different weapon) and efficient on the battlefield as they are barely able to make decent war strategies (the Haafingar Stormcloak camp is the best example of this). Indeed the Dominion's peace with the Empire is getting more fragile (as it is stated in the Thalmor party, by Odolemar if I am not wrong, and by Tullius himself if the empire wins the war), but with the empire there are more chances of winning because the imperial army is larger and more effective in the battlefield.

      The Dragonborn alone is no match for a whole aldmeri army (also because realistic combat does not resembles Skyrim's in game combat), and a wise person would always follow the path that leads to more chances of victory: and Imperial victory over Ulfric's rebels.

      A wise person also see the fact that Imperial or Stormcloak victory doesn't matter. What happens is how you prepare against the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion. Joining the childish squabblings of ignorant Imperials and Stormcloaks are not one of the ways to prepare for the Aldmeri Dominion.

      I am comparing stupid Imperials vs smarter Imperials, I generalized Stormcloaks as they are mostly as dumb as the stupid Imperials based off the policy of attacking the Summerset Isles directly as soon as possible. 

      You can't see how the Dragonborn can become a continental-gobal scale Strategic Asset, just means that if you are the Dragonborn you won't be a match for the Aldmeri Dominion alone. It doesn't mean that if the Dragonborn is not you and is in fact a very cunning strategist on his own coupled with Dragonborn powers isn't. 

      You failed to grasp the fact that I giving points and conditions needed for the Dragonborn to be a threat to the Aldmeri Dominion. If anything, I have already shown that with just the powers the Dragonborn can obtain in the Dragon War and DLC storylines doesn't make you into a threat to the Aldmeri Dominion.

      I have classified powerful Arch-mages as Strategic Assets just like the Dragonborn, guess what is so not in shortage in Altmer Society? Archmages.

      Thalmor's position only gets better in Skyrim if things goes their way. You are gravely mistaken what I suggest to be literately doing nothing because what I suggested requires the Dragonborn to be even more busy than being a mere footsoldier and fight in civil war and will do nothing but get in the Thalmor's way without even raising a finger directly at them. If the Thalmor can manipulate the foolish Empire and Stormcloaks to weaken itself without lifting a finger, why can't I do the same. Where was it stated that I cannot do the same to the Thalmor?

      You are the only one who mistaken what I suggested to be assuming real war is same as the game which is overly stupid and simple. Just as stupid as the stupid Imperials bringing shame to the smart Imperials. 

      There is a saying that by giving what the enemy wants to see, one can sometimes more easily defeat the enemy. That is the basis of what I am suggesting. Letting the Civil War go on, allowing the stupid and inconsequential Imperials fight the equally stupid and inconsequential Stormcloaks, the clever ones can let the Thalmor think what they are seeing is the truth and that things are going their way.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote: A wise person also see the fact that Imperial or Stormcloak victory doesn't matter.

      Please note that this thread is about choosing either Stormcloaks or Imperials, so saying that neither side is good and arguing it is technically off topic. Thank you.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote

      Please note that this thread is about choosing either Stormcloaks or Imperials, so saying that neither side is good and arguing it is technically off topic. Thank you.

      And I did choose a side. I said even though it doesn't matter, I gave points to say why Imperials are better.

      Quoted from my previous comment: I have subjectively chosen the Imperials winning to have a better position than the Stormcloaks winning the civil war. 

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    • 77.160.43.83 wrote:
      Funny that's the reason i would choose imperials because as the thief in the introduction pointed out if it wasn't for the stormcloaks they wouldn't have tried to execute you. Most arguments for joining the stromcloaks are based of emotion while arguments to stay loyal to the empire are based on reason. I'm a man of reason that's why i would stay loyal to the empire but that's my opin
      you have a point but the stormcloaks save you and the imperials are very weak due to the fact Ulfric shout the king to pieces and last i remember using a shout doesnt kill people so toryg must have been the weakest.
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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:
      Ottoman Hold wrote

      Please note that this thread is about choosing either Stormcloaks or Imperials, so saying that neither side is good and arguing it is technically off topic. Thank you.

      And I did choose a side. I said eveway n though it doesn't matter, I gave points to say why Imperials are better.

      Quoted from my previous comment:ave subjectively chosen the Imperials winning to have a better position than the Stormcloaks winning the civil war. 

      the stormcloaks and imperials both have a fifty percent chance of winning, but if you join a side stormcloaks or imperials they get their percentage changed to 100% so it does not matter coz your side wins anyway regardless your choice.

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    • I had this whole post that addressed a bunch of stuff but it all got erased, yikes so I will just post a few bullet points.

      • We are all under the assumption that the Thalmor will lose, that it is the manifest destiny of the Empire to either solidify control over the other provinces, or that the other provinces will rally to beat back the Thalmor, or that somehow the Thalmor will collapse. What if it doesn't? From an objective viewpoint, they have waged war the most efficient so far compared to all of Tamriel's kingdoms. And according to Wulf, the manifestation of Talos, he thinks the notion of an Empire solidifying control over Tamriel is an outdated and ineffective concept- and he created the Empire.
      • Pro-Imperial supporters assume that the Stormcloaks will stretch their forces thin. I don't agree but that is a conversation for another time. But what about the Imperials? The Empire by signing the White Gold Concordant, normalized oppression. Sure we can shift the blame to Ulfric or situations beyond the Empire's control, but at the end of the day, it was Titus Mede who signed a treaty that invited the Thalmor into the provinces of Tamriel to act as supervisors for the Empire and binds Skyrim's populace to be kidnapped if they are accused of questioning the Thalmor's beliefs. Average Joe Nord doesn't care about the Empire's excuses. At the end of the day, it was Titus Mede who invited the Thalmor to Skyrim to kidnap their family and neighbors. If they go to the Empire to protect them, like in the case of Thorald Greymane, the Empire will turn a blind eye, enable the Thalmor by trying to bury inquiries of the crime, and dismiss and trivialize a bunch of grieving pissed off, fearful Nords. This is a perfect storm of brewing discontent and divisiveness and there is nothing the Empire can do about it. They can't blame Ulfric, the populist guy they killed who wanted to oust the Thalmor from Skyrim and combat the foreign power. And they can't address their grievances and protect them because the Thalmor will coerce them to enforce their treaty and may even play their establishment politician hubris to prod them to "attack these malcontents who only hinder the Empire's efforts to restrengthen Cyrodill."
      • Meanwhile, the Thalmor are playing 3d chess while the Empire is playing checkers. They are establishing assets, allies between Skyrim's enemies and collecting artifacts that can be used as weapons of destruction. The Imperial loyal Nords are only loyal because they are threatened by the Thalmor or are content and dependent on Imperial trade. But when the Great War starts again, the Empire will no doubt divert Skyrim's resources and fighting men to Cyrodill to defend the heart of the Empire. The motivations for these Imperial loyalists are no longer there, and the yes-men they left in charge like Elsifir the Fair, the spoiled brat jarl from Faulknaur, Igmund who is under the thumb of the Thalmor- they are all weak leaders. Skyrim will be left defenseless like the Forsworn Uprising, with the Imperial loyal jarls left weakened and vulnerable, their wealth and fighting men being diverted to sustain Cyrodill's front, and the base populace of the Nords that comprised of Stormcloaks, resentful of years of normalized oppression and feeling disenfranchised will take this vulnerability to strike. If the Imperial Jarls aren't ousted by the vindicated Stormcloak remnants (making Tullius' fear that Ulfric will go down a martyr a reality), then there is also the possibility that the Thalmor enticed Skyrim's enemies such as the Forsworn, or Morrowind (who has gone under hard times), to take advantage of Skyrim's vulnerability and take it for themselves, perhaps even to gain the good graces of the Aldmeri Dominion.
      It's a zero sum game for the Empire- either it diverts fighting men from Cyrodill to protect Skyrim from being lost to outside forces leaving Cyrodill vulnerable, or it takes all the resources and men it can muster to protect Cyrodill who will take the brunt of the Aldmeri's offensive, leaving Skyrim vulnerable to be taken as a hostile takeover by forces they cannot control and eventually lose the resources the Empire are dependent on to fight the war.
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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:""""""

      It is closer to the Stormcloaks and Imperials were tricked into playing International Chess against each other while the Thalmor is playing Go chess against the both of them who were too distracted by each other in the International chess.

      There is no difference between the two when it comes to going against the Thalmor. There is only difference between the two. With an overwhelming advantage for the Imperials if they win basing on statistics alone.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:""""""

      It is closer to the Stormcloaks and Imperials were tricked into playing International Chess against each other while the Thalmor is playing Go chess against the both of them who were too distracted by each other in the International chess.

      There is no difference between the two when it comes to going against the Thalmor. There is only difference between the two. With an overwhelming advantage for the Imperials if they win basing on statistics alone.

      If you actually took a statistics class, youd know that what you call stats is not in any stretch statistics. Anyone with a brain can see your using scientific terms that are in no way used aptly to give yourself a facade of credibility. So please dont use this "stat" defense again.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      It is closer to the Stormcloaks and Imperials were tricked into playing International Chess against each other while the Thalmor is playing Go chess against the both of them who were too distracted by each other in the International chess.

      There is no difference between the two when it comes to going against the Thalmor. There is only difference between the two. With an overwhelming advantage for the Imperials if they win basing on statistics alone.

      If you actually took a statistics class, youd know that what you call stats is not in any stretch statistics. Anyone with a brain can see your using scientific terms that are in no way used aptly to give yourself a facade of credibility. So please dont use this "stat" defense again.

      Insults eh? Actually it is very ironic that by dismissing my points based off your emotional investment proves that you are bias and your judgement is clouded instead of asking me to give my fair and unbiased reasonings to why I said that you outright dismissed everything and show a complete lack of magnanimity and tolerance for others who doesn't share the same view as you which in turn proves that you are very small and petty.

      Well, here's simple statistics break down.


      Stormcloaks victory:

      Resources available: Skyrim

      Total Manpower: Skyrim

      Army support: Skyrim

      Empire size: Reduced by approx. 30% (simple glance on the map)

      Total Manpower: Cyrodiil + High Rock

      Resources available: Cyrodiil + High Rock

      Army Support: Cyrodiil + High Rock.

      They have to go through more in order to gather the forces of Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, Skyrim and High Rock to face the Aldmeri Dominion again. Number one, Empire and Stormcloaks have to negotiate with each other to get (Skyrim, Cyrodiil and High Rock) resources together, then Hammerfell negotiations with Empire or/and Stormcloaks to add Hammerfell to the mix.

      Make no mistake, this is a very small gap but there is still a gap. There is another issue though. This situation is a rare opportunity that I cannot see the Aldmeri Dominion passing up: Alliance of convenience with Empire (High Rock+Cyrodiil) + (Summerset Isles+Valenwood+Elsweyr) to "Punish" the "traitorous Stormcloaks"

      I cannot see why it will not go down this path because for the Empire it is a good chance to gain incentives and get the Thalmor to loosen their grip on the Empire and to recapture Skyrim with the help of the Dominion. For the Thalmor it is an opportunity to drive the rift between Man races even further.


      Imperial Victory:

      Resources available: Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock

      Total Manpower: Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock

      Army support: Cyrodiil Skyrim and High Rock.

      Everything is controlled by one political party. They have the manpower and resources of all 3 provinces, they just need to negotiate with 1 province: Hammerfell. To gather the resources of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock into one against the Aldmeri Dominion when it comes knocking again.

      In the most simplest form.

      Stormcloak victory

      1 Skyrim, Empire 2, Hammerfell 1 vs Aldmeri Dominion 3.

      Imperial Victory

      Empire 3, Hammerfell 1 vs Aldmeri Dominion 3

      Stormcloak victory result in a more divided Provinces of mankind. Imperials have a more united one. Therefore Imperial one is better than a Stormcloak one. This is coming from me who doesn't care who wins.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Sports72Xtrm wrote:

      It is closer to the Stormcloaks and Imperials were tricked into playing International Chess against each other while the Thalmor is playing Go chess against the both of them who were too distracted by each other in the International chess.

      There is no difference between the two when it comes to going against the Thalmor. There is only difference between the two. With an overwhelming advantage for the Imperials if they win basing on statistics alone.

      If you actually took a statistics class, youd know that what you call stats is not in any stretch statistics. Anyone with a brain can see your using scientific terms that are in no way used aptly to give yourself a facade of credibility. So please dont use this "stat" defense again.

      Insults eh? Actually it is very ironic that by dismissing my points based off your emotional investment proves that you are bias and your judgement is clouded instead of asking me to give my fair and unbiased reasonings to why I said that you outright dismissed everything and show a complete lack of magnanimity and tolerance for others who doesn't share the same view as you which in turn proves that you are very small and petty.

      Well, here's simple statistics break down.


      Stormcloaks victory:

      Resources available: Skyrim

      Total Manpower: Skyrim

      Army support: Skyrim

      Empire size: Reduced by approx. 30% (simple glance on the map)

      Total Manpower: Cyrodiil + High Rock

      Resources available: Cyrodiil + High Rock

      Army Support: Cyrodiil + High Rock.

      They have to go through more in order to gather the forces of Cyrodiil, Hammerfell, Skyrim and High Rock to face the Aldmeri Dominion again. Number one, Empire and Stormcloaks have to negotiate with each other to get (Skyrim, Cyrodiil and High Rock) resources together, then Hammerfell negotiations with Empire or/and Stormcloaks to add Hammerfell to the mix.

      Make no mistake, this is a very small gap but there is still a gap. There is another issue though. This situation is a rare opportunity that I cannot see the Aldmeri Dominion passing up: Alliance of convenience with Empire (High Rock+Cyrodiil) + (Summerset Isles+Valenwood+Elsweyr) to "Punish" the "traitorous Stormcloaks"

      I cannot see why it will not go down this path because for the Empire it is a good chance to gain incentives and get the Thalmor to loosen their grip on the Empire and to recapture Skyrim with the help of the Dominion. For the Thalmor it is an opportunity to drive the rift between Man races even further.


      Imperial Victory:

      Resources available: Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock

      Total Manpower: Cyrodiil, Skyrim and High Rock

      Army support: Cyrodiil Skyrim and High Rock.

      Everything is controlled by one political party. They have the manpower and resources of all 3 provinces, they just need to negotiate with 1 province: Hammerfell. To gather the resources of Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Hammerfell and High Rock into one against the Aldmeri Dominion when it comes knocking again.

      In the most simplest form.

      Stormcloak victory

      1 Skyrim, Empire 2, Hammerfell 1 vs Aldmeri Dominion 3.

      Imperial Victory

      Empire 3, Hammerfell 1 vs Aldmeri Dominion 3

      Stormcloak victory result in a more divided Provinces of mankind. Imperials have a more united one. Therefore Imperial one is better than a Stormcloak one. This is coming from me who doesn't care who wins.

      How is it an insult to call a bullshiter on his bullshit? I mean, if anyone is insulting anyone, it's you trying to use dumb persuasion tactics with no substance to prop up a flawed logic. And despite your assertions that you are an unfeeling unbiased party that have no emotional stakes in this debate, your indignation at even suggesting that you don't know what you are talking about is an emotional response.

      2. Why would the Empire let the Thalmor not only march their armies across their lands to "punish" the Stormcloaks, but also decimate a province they can utilize to strike at the Dominion and let the Dominion consolidate control in a province that is right next to Cyrodill and High Rock? Why? Because of spite? You do realize that if the Thalmor consolidate control over Skyrim, that they accomplish their goals of denying the Empire the resources it needs and to provide the two front attack on Cyrodiil that you are worried about (remember the "pincer attack" you were lecturing everyone about? War tactics 101 remember?). Even if Cyrodiil is petty enough to do that out of spite, High Rock and Hammerfell is not going to stand by and let the Empire enable the Aldmeri Dominion to set up shop so close to their borders. If the Imperials are so determined to bring slavery and death by an elven foreign power to the other human kingdoms, the other human kingdoms would be fools not to rally under Skyrim and crush Cyrodiil before they endanger their own people. See, if the Empire's logic is Imperial Legions are the best, with hubris and spite are the foundation of their war strategy, then the Stormcloaks are right in that the Empire is a weak and corrupt government determined to give away the other human kingdoms to the Aldmeri Dominion on a silver platter.

      3. Which goes to my next point. The Aldmeri Dominion would need to trespass on a lot of independent kingdoms like Hammerfell's sea borders or Cyrodiil's borders by land to even strike at Skyrim. The point above makes it clear why it is in everyone's best interests to not let that happen. The Stormcloaks are invalidated to participate in the Concordant via their independence and can strike at the Dominion with impunity with Cyrodiil and Hammerfel acting as a buffer, and forces cooperation between the human nations. If the Imperial Legions win, they are bound by the Concordant to continue letting the Thalmor sabotage the human kingdoms both politically and militarily while using the treaty as an excuse to hinder the human kingdoms' efforts to form a proper resistance.

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    • Who says anything about the Empire allowing the Dominion troops marching through the Empire lands just to punish the Stormcloaks. 

      I stated clearly that in terms of numbers. Unifying most of the same lands under 1 party and negotiating a joint operation with Hammerfell who had 25 years to wash away or reduce the negative sentiments the Redguards had for the Empire and unite against the Aldmeri Dominion is better than having 3 factions with their own agenda unite against the Aldmeri Dominion.

      Its Empire ally Hammerfell vs Aldmeri Dominion being better than...

      Empire ally Hammerfell ally Stormcloaks vs Aldmeri Dominion.

      Watch the cracks in the alliances. Empire ally Hammerfell have 1 crack. Empire ally Stormcloak and Hammerfell have 3 cracks. 

      Therefore subjectively it is Imperials winning is better not that it matters to me. The only insulting one who has no valid points to back his bias opinion is you and nobody else. No one is insulting you except you are the one insulting others.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote: Who says anything about the Empire allowing the Dominion troops marching through the Empire lands just to punish the Stormcloaks. 

      I stated clearly that in terms of numbers. Unifying most of the same lands under 1 party and negotiating a joint operation with Hammerfell who had 25 years to wash away or reduce the negative sentiments the Redguards had for the Empire and unite against the Aldmeri Dominion is better than having 3 factions with their own agenda unite against the Aldmeri Dominion.

      Its Empire ally Hammerfell vs Aldmeri Dominion being better than...

      Empire ally Hammerfell ally Stormcloaks vs Aldmeri Dominion.

      Watch the cracks in the alliances. Empire ally Hammerfell have 1 crack. Empire ally Stormcloak and Hammerfell have 3 cracks. 

      Therefore subjectively it is Imperials winning is better not that it matters to me. The only insulting one who has no valid points to back his bias opinion is you and nobody else. No one is insulting you except you are the one insulting others.

      The last time Hammerfel unified under the Imperial Legion, Emperor Titus Mede disavowed Hammerfel as an Imperial Province after it refused to relinquish half their country to a hostile foreign power in order to appease a special relationship between Cyrodill and the Dominion. Negative sentiment is sugarcoating it, it's a political shit the pants for the Empire. You think the Redguards are going to trust the Empire to watch its back, to lead its fighting men, to divert its resources to them when they showed themselves unable to fight for them when the chips are down and they've proven themselves capable of fending for themselves? No rational human being continues to feed a beast that does nothing but bites your hand. I'm sorry, but we need to be realistic about the expectations regarding the cooperation between Hammerfel and Cyrodiil. It's a simple concept, "leaders who don't fight for their people can't expect for their people to fight for them." I know that even you know the Redguards begging or considering to fight with the Empire again is a pipe dream. The only way they consider fighting with the Empire again logically is if the Empire is under the tight leash of another more trustworthy partner. The Stormcloaks have more in common with the Redguards than they do with the Empire. They both felt betrayed, disillusioned, and both thought they could have defeated the Domionion if the Empire wasn't so weak and surrendered. It's common sense for the Stormcloaks to have an easier time fostering a cooperative and productive relationship with Hammerfel than it is for Cyrodiil.

      2. Even if the Imperial Legion wins the Skyrim Civil War, there are still Nord malcontents who will see Ulfric as a martyr that will breed more the longer the Thalmor Justicars are allowed to persecute the Nord populace. The Empire cannot oust the Justicars without jepordizing the "peace" they need to reorganize. It will still be an Empire, trying to reconcile with a resentful Hammerfell and Stormcloak remnants (possibly enabled by the Thalmor to provide dissent) with their own agendas inhibiting productive resistance to the Dominion.

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    • Sports72Xtrm wrote: """""

      Last I checked the Civil war ending with the Imperial Legion victory, the Stormcloaks were wiped to near extinction.

      The maximum strength left of Stormcloaks on Imperial victory is about 10 camps/10 battlalions but realistically far lesser dissidents with the Empire. 

      The maximum strength left of Empire on Stormcloak victory is = to the strength that Ulfric openly acknowledge too strong for the Stormcloaks to win.

      Thalmor can give these guys aid but if they are not hypocrites about wanting to destroy the Thalmor, they would not attack the Empire when the Empire started fighting against the Aldmeri dominion. Also without Ulfric, they won't have a legal claim to the High King. Those who were persuaded to join Stormcloaks because Ulfric had the legal claim to the throne will eventually grow disillusioned by the Stormcloaks who kept fighting a lost battle.

      I also made it clear that the amount of resources left in Skyrim available for either victory is equal.

      Stormcloaks victory, loyal imperialists support will be gone. Skyrim and Cyrodiil's rift will be greater than Imperial victory as Imperials cannot re-establish control over Skyrim.

      Imperial victory, loyal stormcloaks support will be gone, Skyrim and Cyrodiil's rift is smaller as Imperials still have control of the province.

      Ultimately I believe that Skyrim is a piece of worthless junk that is more trouble than its worth if not for worthless Imperial pride, they are better off giving it up and focusing on Cyrodiil's own problems by renouncing Skyrim and forcing Aldmeri Dominion's hand.

      Base on what is commonly known, it was stated many times that Skyrim compared to Cyrodiil which is the center of civilization, progression and development, Skyrim is mostly frozen wilderness and save for the Capitals of the Nine Holds, largely undeveloped.

      At least compared to Cyrodiil. This is enough to come to a conclusion that is probably over 95% accurate that Skyrim's population and resources available to Empire is only around 50% of Cyrodiil's even though Cyrodiil is only around 35% to 40% bigger than Skyrim.

      Fighting the civil war is a gamble that the Empire deemed necessary to take. Winning, means they retain the land, losing means they lose a large wealth of resources. Your statement that Skyrim is untouchable because they have to go through Cyrodiil is extremely foolish. The Empire and Aldmeri Dominion aren't going to attack each other. 

      Even idiots can see that if the Aldmeri Dominion take Cyrodiil, it will leave them open in the aftermath for the Stormcloaks to take advantage. Strategy 101, take down the weakest link. There's no way the Aldmeri Dominion will not seize this opportunity.

      No, the Stormcloaks are 99% to 100% most likely to face, forces of Cyrodiil and High Rock from land because this is the perfect opportunity for High Rock to gain back Markarth and invasion forces of Summerset Isles, Elsweyr and Valenwood from sea. 

      With the display of skills by Thalmor so far, I cannot believe anything short of this result as a response to a Stormcloak victory in Skyrim, with the Stormcloaks not yet recovered and easy pickings for the combined might of Cyrodiil, High Rock, Summerset Isles, Valenwood and Elsweyr, you cannot ask for a more easy win than this. The Thalmor even have a legal reason why they want their vassel Empire to help them 'punish' the blasphemous Stormcloaks for disobeying their Elven masters and worship the "devil Talos" 

      To the Redguards and Empire, it will look nothing but legit reason to attack Skyrim and gain a few more years of peace. The Imperials are just going to give the excuse that the Stormcloaks ask for it, stop crying like a milk drinker and take total annihilation like a real man.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Last I checked the Civil war ending with the Imperial Legion victory, the Stormcloaks were wiped to near extinction.

      The maximum strength left of Stormcloaks on Imperial victory is about 10 camps/10 battlalions but realistically far lesser dissidents with the Empire. 

      The maximum strength left of Empire on Stormcloak victory is = to the strength that Ulfric openly acknowledge too strong for the Stormcloaks to win.

      Thalmor can give these guys aid but if they are not hypocrites about wanting to destroy the Thalmor, they would not attack the Empire when the Empire started fighting against the Aldmeri dominion. Also without Ulfric, they won't have a legal claim to the High King. Those who were persuaded to join Stormcloaks because Ulfric had the legal claim to the throne will eventually grow disillusioned by the Stormcloaks who kept fighting a lost battle.

      I also made it clear that the amount of resources left in Skyrim available for either victory is equal.

      Stormcloaks victory, loyal imperialists support will be gone. Skyrim and Cyrodiil's rift will be greater than Imperial victory as Imperials cannot re-establish control over Skyrim.

      Imperial victory, loyal stormcloaks support will be gone, Skyrim and Cyrodiil's rift is smaller as Imperials still have control of the province.

      Ultimately I believe that Skyrim is a piece of worthless junk that is more trouble than its worth if not for worthless Imperial pride, they are better off giving it up and focusing on Cyrodiil's own problems by renouncing Skyrim and forcing Aldmeri Dominion's hand.

      Base on what is commonly known, it was stated many times that Skyrim compared to Cyrodiil which is the center of civilization, progression and development, Skyrim is mostly frozen wilderness and save for the Capitals of the Nine Holds, largely undeveloped.

      At least compared to Cyrodiil. This is enough to come to a conclusion that is probably over 95% accurate that Skyrim's population and resources available to Empire is only around 50% of Cyrodiil's even though Cyrodiil is only around 35% to 40% bigger than Skyrim.

      Fighting the civil war is a gamble that the Empire deemed necessary to take. Winning, means they retain the land, losing means they lose a large wealth of resources. Your statement that Skyrim is untouchable because they have to go through Cyrodiil is extremely foolish. The Empire and Aldmeri Dominion aren't going to attack each other. 

      Even idiots can see that if the Aldmeri Dominion take Cyrodiil, it will leave them open in the aftermath for the Stormcloaks to take advantage. Strategy 101, take down the weakest link. There's no way the Aldmeri Dominion will not seize this opportunity.

      No, the Stormcloaks are 99% to 100% most likely to face, forces of Cyrodiil and High Rock from land because this is the perfect opportunity for High Rock to gain back Markarth and invasion forces of Summerset Isles, Elsweyr and Valenwood from sea. 

      With the display of skills by Thalmor so far, I cannot believe anything short of this result as a response to a Stormcloak victory in Skyrim, with the Stormcloaks not yet recovered and easy pickings for the combined might of Cyrodiil, High Rock, Summerset Isles, Valenwood and Elsweyr, you cannot ask for a more easy win than this. The Thalmor even have a legal reason why they want their vassel Empire to help them 'punish' the blasphemous Stormcloaks for disobeying their Elven masters and worship the "devil Talos" 

      To the Redguards and Empire, it will look nothing but legit reason to attack Skyrim and gain a few more years of peace. The Imperials are just going to give the excuse that the Stormcloaks ask for it, stop crying like a milk drinker and take total annihilation like a real man.

      Look up gameplay and story segregation, plus Skyrim's dissatisfaction with Mede imperial misrule through Solitude puppets as described in the book Skyrims rule means the empire will never be able to quite bring Skyrim back under their rule.

      Nords will not forget nor will they quitely acquiesce to more Mer appeasement even if imperials win again

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    • 80.216.218.146 wrote:

      Nords will not forget nor will they quitely acquiesce to more Mer appeasement even if imperials win again

      Storyline wise there's an equal amount of support for the Empire as it is for the Stormcloaks. Enough for the Imperials to conscript enough men to stalemate with the Stormcloaks without additional help from the Empire.

      Going by ratio of Jarls supporting Empire and Stormcloaks, its a 5v4 since Balgruuf is obviously a Supporter of the Empire even though he keeps claiming he is neutral.

      Look up Gameplay, they are about equal, Skyrim's dissatisfaction; there is multiple levels of dissatisfaction. Taking the Dragonborn out of the equation, for every staunch Stormcloak willing to take action against the Empire, there will be an equally staunch Imperial willing to take action against the Stormcloaks on the average across 9 Holds with exception to Whiterun.

      Where Balgruuf tip the scales to the empire's favor.

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Goredovah wrote:
      There are some issues with your points, Yingyang. The Aldmeri Dominion would easily defeat the empire without Skyrim as Morrowind is still devastated (or at least most of it) thanks to the eruption of the Red Mountain and the Dunmer are starting to not trust the empire, High Rock is very small and thus can not provide a decent amount of soldiers and resources. Cyrodiil and Skyrim are the pnly provinces that can actually help the empire to effectively rebuild itself, but without Skyrim the empire will have to take care of three provinces (one of them being almost devastated) while being only able to rebuild itself with the help of one of them (all of this without mentioning that in the Great War the Thalmor sacked the Imperial City and nearly destroyed it, so unlike Cyrodiil Skyrim was untouched by the Great War in this aspect).

      To say that the IMPERIAL LEGION is not fighting the rebels for the good of the EMPIRE is nonsense, for obvious reasons. Also if the imperials only did this due to their interests, they would not let the nords have their own culture and religion while living under imperial control and Mede would surely give Tullius the reinforcements requested by the general to easily end the rebellion. All of this without mentioning that the imperials never help the Thalmor to hunt down Talos worshippers (they did not do this even with Thorald Gray-Mane).

      Your ratiocination of letting both survive does not make sense, because the longer this war exists, the more weakned both the Empire and Skyrim will get (and Ulfric already showed many times that he is open to anything except crictiques). Also by saying this you show that you lack knowledge about the lore in this aspect, as if you read Thalmor Dossier: Ulfric Stormcloak it is stated that the Thalmor's position in Skyrim get's better each day the war goes on.

      Stupid imperials? Said the person who thinks that attacking equals winning. You said that the rebels will attack the Dominion as soon as possible, while they seem to not care about what happen's out of Skyrim and even if they do they will get easily defeated as the stormcloak army is anything but organized (each soldier wielding a different weapon) and efficient on the battlefield as they are barely able to make decent war strategies (the Haafingar Stormcloak camp is the best example of this). Indeed the Dominion's peace with the Empire is getting more fragile (as it is stated in the Thalmor party, by Odolemar if I am not wrong, and by Tullius himself if the empire wins the war), but with the empire there are more chances of winning because the imperial army is larger and more effective in the battlefield.

      The Dragonborn alone is no match for a whole aldmeri army (also because realistic combat does not resembles Skyrim's in game combat), and a wise person would always follow the path that leads to more chances of victory: and Imperial victory over Ulfric's rebels.

      A wise person also see the fact that Imperial or Stormcloak victory doesn't matter. What happens is how you prepare against the Thalmor and Aldmeri Dominion. Joining the childish squabblings of ignorant Imperials and Stormcloaks are not one of the ways to prepare for the Aldmeri Dominion.

      I am comparing stupid Imperials vs smarter Imperials, I generalized Stormcloaks as they are mostly as dumb as the stupid Imperials based off the policy of attacking the Summerset Isles directly as soon as possible. 

      You can't see how the Dragonborn can become a continental-gobal scale Strategic Asset, just means that if you are the Dragonborn you won't be a match for the Aldmeri Dominion alone. It doesn't mean that if the Dragonborn is not you and is in fact a very cunning strategist on his own coupled with Dragonborn powers isn't. 

      You failed to grasp the fact that I giving points and conditions needed for the Dragonborn to be a threat to the Aldmeri Dominion. If anything, I have already shown that with just the powers the Dragonborn can obtain in the Dragon War and DLC storylines doesn't make you into a threat to the Aldmeri Dominion.

      I have classified powerful Arch-mages as Strategic Assets just like the Dragonborn, guess what is so not in shortage in Altmer Society? Archmages.

      Thalmor's position only gets better in Skyrim if things goes their way. You are gravely mistaken what I suggest to be literately doing nothing because what I suggested requires the Dragonborn to be even more busy than being a mere footsoldier and fight in civil war and will do nothing but get in the Thalmor's way without even raising a finger directly at them. If the Thalmor can manipulate the foolish Empire and Stormcloaks to weaken itself without lifting a finger, why can't I do the same. Where was it stated that I cannot do the same to the Thalmor?

      You are the only one who mistaken what I suggested to be assuming real war is same as the game which is overly stupid and simple. Just as stupid as the stupid Imperials bringing shame to the smart Imperials. 

      There is a saying that by giving what the enemy wants to see, one can sometimes more easily defeat the enemy. That is the basis of what I am suggesting. Letting the Civil War go on, allowing the stupid and inconsequential Imperials fight the equally stupid and inconsequential Stormcloaks, the clever ones can let the Thalmor think what they are seeing is the truth and that things are going their way.

      Nope, a wise person would see how the empire would give advantages against the Thalmor if compared to what the stormcloaks would give. The empire is not only militarily superior to the stormcloaks in terms of strategy (while every single imperial camp in Skyrim is isolated, the Haafingar stormcloak camp is dangerously close to Solitude and to the Dragon Bridge), equipment (even the light imperial armor is better than the Stormcloak armor, without mentioning that while the imperials are organized in terms of weapons, the stormcloaks are not) and numbers (these alone may not win wars, but they are a great advantage if combined with what was stated before).

      The Dragonborn alone can not defeat a whole aldmeri army alone at once. Not a single mortal can. The Thalmor are masters in magic and since they would come by the hundreds or even thousands, the Dragonborn would have to be aided by an army.

      You call me stupid when in fact what you told me before is loterally doing nothing about the Civil War. You call me stupid when you are the one who suggested to let the Stormcloaks continue to weaken the empire and give more chances for the Thalmor to reach it's objective. If the war goes on the empire will surely get weaker and weaker, while if the war ends the empire can finally pay attention only to rebuild itself for the next Great War. You wouldn't be able to manipulate the Thalmor similarly unless you defeated them to the point of putting them on a dead end (just like what happened to the empire in the Great War), and to do this you should be stronger than the Thalmor.

      Just because something is said by many it does not mean that it is true. And if it is it may not always be true (as I showed, what you said about "giving the enemy what he wants" is to be a fool in the case of Skyrim's Civil War).

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    • Goredovah wrote;

      Eh, I didn't say you're stupid, I just say placing a picture of your choosing over another person for your own convenience is a dumb thing to do. One of the many ways to use strategy is to come up with something to deceive the enemy. What I am doing is playing risky moves with a very high turnover rates.

      Another thing to note that the Empire's strength is not its being much better in terms of strategy than Stormcloaks. What is significant is their numbers.

      If Stormcloak strategy is a 10, I would give Empire about 11 and the Thalmor around 14

      In terms of military strength/Numbers if the Stormcloak is a 10, the Empire total would not be less than a 35 and the Aldmeri Dominion wouldn't be less than a 25.

      ^ is solely numbers and has nothing to do with actual performance because actual performance I would rank Aldmeri Dominion a margin higher than the Empire based off their performance in the Great War.

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    • Terawolf119 wrote:
      Look


      Claiming the Stormcloaks have a better chance without the Empire is dumb. Everyone knows the Empire is less than effective ever since the last Septims dies out after Oblivion Crisis.

      Problem is simple maths says Stormcloaks are in over their heads.

      Great War:

      Empire caught off guard.

      Empire = Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfell = 4

      Aldmeri Dominion = 3.

      Empire nearly loses.

      Civil war arguments.

      Stormcloaks believes that with Skyrim alone = 1

      They can beat Aldmeri Dominion = 3.

      Messed up beliefs.

      Not to mention if they drive the Empire out, they will not be having 1, they will have less than 1 because many Empire supporters will not support them and will pull out of Skyrim.

      Arguments saying they can still create a coalition force by allying High Rock, Skyrim, Hammerfell and maybe Cyrodiil is dumb. The Empire was a united Coalition force during the Great War.

      It was a coalition force of High Rock, Hammerfell, Skyrim and Cyrodiil during the Great War. It is a united Coalition Force.

      You guys are saying a disunited coalition force of the 4 with personal vendetta among each other and no true centralized leader is better than the same coalition force of the 4 with a centralized leader is better.

      Whether the Empire deserves to stay in power or not is up to debate, personally I think they don't but, I believe they have one last service to do for Tamriel before it gets replaced: Fend off the Aldmeri Dominion.

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    • [[1]]

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:

      Terawolf119 wrote:
      Look


      Claiming the Stormcloaks have a better chance without the Empire is dumb. Everyone knows the Empire is less than effective ever since the last Septims dies out after Oblivion Crisis.

      Problem is simple maths says Stormcloaks are in over their heads.

      Great War:

      Empire caught off guard.

      Empire = Cyrodiil, Skyrim, High Rock and Hammerfell = 4

      Aldmeri Dominion = 3.

      Empire nearly loses.

      Civil war arguments.

      Stormcloaks believes that with Skyrim alone = 1

      They can beat Aldmeri Dominion = 3.

      Messed up beliefs.

      Not to mention if they drive the Empire out, they will not be having 1, they will have less than 1 because many Empire supporters will not support them and will pull out of Skyrim.

      Arguments saying they can still create a coalition force by allying High Rock, Skyrim, Hammerfell and maybe Cyrodiil is dumb. The Empire was a united Coalition force during the Great War.

      It was a coalition force of High Rock, Hammerfell, Skyrim and Cyrodiil during the Great War. It is a united Coalition Force.

      You guys are saying a disunited coalition force of the 4 with personal vendetta among each other and no true centralized leader is better than the same coalition force of the 4 with a centralized leader is better.

      Whether the Empire deserves to stay in power or not is up to debate, personally I think they don't but, I believe they have one last service to do for Tamriel before it gets replaced: Fend off the Aldmeri Dominion.

      [[1]]

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    • Terawolf119 wrote:

      [[1]]

      There is a possibility that the Dragonborn will become a slave to the Daedric Prince of Fates. Even with CHIM you cannot hope to match a Daedric Prince not to mention he'll likely control you before you attain it. Taking into consideration of this scenario is the reason why I said clever neutrality is the only truth.

      Siding with Stormcloaks, siding with Imperials? There is a Winner path, why should I pick the stupid loser paths in Stormcloaks or Imperials. That is stupid.

      If the Dragonborn remain free at the end of the Dragonborn DLC, I see no reason why I have to let ignorant scrubs like Ulfric stormclown and Emperor Titus Mead II...  a bloody clown and a mug of mead decide the running of Tamriel especially if I care enough to form a 3rd Faction that is so powerful that it makes the Stormcloaks and Imperials try to enlist my help. 

      I will be the true ruler of Tamriel. Worthless scrubs like Ulfric Stormclown and Titus Mead II are only worth being puppet rulers.

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    • Goredovah wrote: One- the fact that you were almost executed is not a excuse to join Ulfric because IT WAS NOT THE EMPIRE THAT ORDERED IT. "What? You gotta be kidding" but I am not, the one who ordered it was ONE IMPERIAL CAPTAIN... and the only imperial authority that was near her at that moment was an inferior authority (General Tullius was too far away to hear what she said).

      The Imperial soldiers were the ones who captured you, though. And everyone else brought there was supposed to be executed, so it's logical to guess you are supposed to be executed too. It's not likely they only brought you there to watch.

      Goredovah wrote: I wonder why these people do not mention the fact that General Tullius shouted "GET THE TOWN'S PEOPLE TO SAFETY!" instead of hidding on a tower without helping anyone AS ULFRIC DID

      Ulfric had a gag on. He couldn't shout (or Shout) anything.

      Besides, any Stormcloaks still there after the dragon attack would have been taken back into custody, even if they helped protect citizens. It was in his best interest to take cover and find a way out, and encourage the other Stormcloaks to do the same.

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    • WhenDovCry wrote:

      Goredovah wrote: One- the fact that you were almost executed is not a excuse to join Ulfric because IT WAS NOT THE EMPIRE THAT ORDERED IT. "What? You gotta be kidding" but I am not, the one who ordered it was ONE IMPERIAL CAPTAIN... and the only imperial authority that was near her at that moment was an inferior authority (General Tullius was too far away to hear what she said).

      The Imperial soldiers were the ones who captured you, though. And everyone else brought there was supposed to be executed, so it's logical to guess you are supposed to be executed too. It's not likely they only brought you there to watch.


      Goredovah wrote: I wonder why these people do not mention the fact that General Tullius shouted "GET THE TOWN'S PEOPLE TO SAFETY!" instead of hidding on a tower without helping anyone AS ULFRIC DID

      Ulfric had a gag on. He couldn't shout (or Shout) anything.

      Besides, any Stormcloaks still there after the dragon attack would have been taken back into custody, even if they helped protect citizens. It was in his best interest to take cover and find a way out, and encourage the other Stormcloaks to do the same.

      Ulfric with his measely knowledge of the Thu'um can only defeat a youngster who has a few basic sword training but no combat experience. You can't expect him to take on Alduin or any other dragons even if Ulfric has a Theater size army (1 million to 10 million soldiers) backing Ulfric up. Not all Thu'um users are as capable as the Last Dragonborn who can go toe to toe with Dragons and win.

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    • Stormcloaks they are the only way to achieve freedom from the Thalmor and to get the worship of Talos back.

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    • LoneGunMenWander wrote: Stormcloaks they are the only way to achieve freedom from the Thalmor and to get the worship of Talos back.

      No they aren't. Do you think the Empire will keep the Talos ban forever? HA! No.

      Kicking the Empire out may give Skyrim freedom... temporary, it wouldn't be long before the province starves and the Dominion invades.

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    • WhenDovCry wrote: The Imperial soldiers were the ones who captured you, though. And everyone else brought there was supposed to be executed, so it's logical to guess you are supposed to be executed too. It's not likely they only brought you there to watch.

      As per usual, another has fallen to the cliché excuse.

      I'll put this simply: Yes, the Empire did capture the DB. Yes, they thought he/she was a Stormcloak. Why? There's an ambush on Ulfric Stormcloak, and someone happens to be sneaking nearby. If they're not Imperial, it must be assumed that they are an enemy spy. That's how war works.

      Ulfric had a gag on. He couldn't shout (or Shout) anything.

      Besides, any Stormcloaks still there after the dragon attack would have been taken back into custody, even if they helped protect citizens. It was in his best interest to take cover and find a way out, and encourage the other Stormcloaks to do the same.

      That, I can agree on. As prisoners, the Stormcloaks, if they tried to help, could have been seen as trying to escape/take the Empire by surprise. All it would end up doing was getting them killed, as well as distracting the Empire from helping the citizens, therefore undermining the very purpose of the initial action by the Stormcloaks.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:

      WhenDovCry wrote:

      Goredovah wrote:
      One- the fact that you were almost executed is not a excuse to join Ulfric because IT WAS NOT THE EMPIRE THAT ORDERED IT. "What? You gotta be kidding" but I am not, the one who ordered it was ONE IMPERIAL CAPTAIN... and the only imperial authority that was near her at that moment was an inferior authority (General Tullius was too far away to hear what she said).

      The Imperial soldiers were the ones who captured you, though. And everyone else brought there was supposed to be executed, so it's logical to guess you are supposed to be executed too. It's not likely they only brought you there to watch.

      As per usual, another has fallen to the cliché excuse.

      I'll put this simply: Yes, the Empire did capture the DB. Yes, they thought he/she was a Stormcloak. Why? There's an ambush on Ulfric Stormcloak, and someone happens to be sneaking nearby. If they're not Imperial, it must be assumed that they are an enemy spy. That's how war works.

      Actually, I was arguing more for why that Imperial captain wasn't out of line with her assumption. Apologies if that was unclear.

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    • Empire is dying. I personally feel the Empire's last duty to perform for Tamriel is to be destroyed in the next War with the Aldmeri Dominion while bringing the Dominion down with it. An Empire that suffers catastrophic losses and unable to do shit to prevent the other provinces to take whatever they want with extreme hate and bias is the fate I forsaw for the Empire.

      The fate of the Stormcloaks is to receive full blame for the Empire's "failures" in the said war with AD due to Imperial information control and propaganda, then fades into the shadows of history like nothing.

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    • I feel like this column reflects the entire 2016 election.

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    • True, the whole Civil War is similar to the mentality of the US 2016 Election. While there are some diehard supporters for both sides, most fall into the category of "lesser of two evils."

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    • Maybe we'll get Donaldi Trumpus as the new Emperor in TES 6. He'll build a wall, and make the Dominion pay for it!

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      Maybe we'll get Donaldi Trumpus as the new Emperor in TES 6. He'll build a wall, and make the Dominion pay for it!

      XD

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    • I don't care what you say.LONG LIVE THE STORMCLOAKS.I never liked the thalmor anyway

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    • 96.58.223.85 wrote:
      I don't care what you say.LONG LIVE THE STORMCLOAKS.I never liked the thalmor anyway

      Rock on brother

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    • 96.58.223.85 wrote:
      I don't care what you say.LONG LIVE THE STORMCLOAKS.I never liked the thalmor anyway

      "Long live the Stormcloaks" and "I never liked the Thalmor anyway" are two contradictory statements. The Stormcloaks are doing exactly what the Thalmor desire: they weaken the Empire, making it easier for the Thalmor to take over

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    • /\ There has been debate on that, intill we get more information it will stay a debated peice of infomation

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:

      "Long live the Stormcloaks" and "I never liked the Thalmor anyway" are two contradictory statements. The Stormcloaks are doing exactly what the Thalmor desire: they weaken the Empire, making it easier for the Thalmor to take over

      They dictate the laws, they've already taken over.

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    • 80.216.198.241 wrote:

      Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:

      "Long live the Stormcloaks" and "I never liked the Thalmor anyway" are two contradictory statements. The Stormcloaks are doing exactly what the Thalmor desire: they weaken the Empire, making it easier for the Thalmor to take over

      They dictate the laws, they've already taken over.

      [citation needed]

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    • I always thought of the Skyrim Civil War as the situation between Ireland/Scotland and England/Britain

      Empire=England/Britain

      Stormcloaks=Ireland/

      Since I'm 50% Irish and 50% Scottish (seriously) and proud, I chose the Stormcloaks.

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    • LoneGunMenWander wrote:
      96.58.223.85 wrote:
      I don't care what you say.LONG LIVE THE STORMCLOAKS.I never liked the thalmor anyway
      Rock on brother

      I know right, we serously need a thread for only stormcloaks

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      LoneGunMenWander wrote: Stormcloaks they are the only way to achieve freedom from the Thalmor and to get the worship of Talos back.

      No they aren't. Do you think the Empire will keep the Talos ban forever? HA! No.

      Kicking the Empire out may give Skyrim freedom... temporary, it wouldn't be long before the province starves and the Dominion invades.

      1. Ya but the empire will collapse before then.

      2. ya think they wouldn't do it any way?

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    • YinyangElementofduality wrote:
      WhenDovCry wrote:

      Goredovah wrote: One- the fact that you were almost executed is not a excuse to join Ulfric because IT WAS NOT THE EMPIRE THAT ORDERED IT. "What? You gotta be kidding" but I am not, the one who ordered it was ONE IMPERIAL CAPTAIN... and the only imperial authority that was near her at that moment was an inferior authority (General Tullius was too far away to hear what she said).

      The Imperial soldiers were the ones who captured you, though. And everyone else brought there was supposed to be executed, so it's logical to guess you are supposed to be executed too. It's not likely they only brought you there to watch.


      Goredovah wrote: I wonder why these people do not mention the fact that General Tullius shouted "GET THE TOWN'S PEOPLE TO SAFETY!" instead of hidding on a tower without helping anyone AS ULFRIC DID

      Ulfric had a gag on. He couldn't shout (or Shout) anything.

      Besides, any Stormcloaks still there after the dragon attack would have been taken back into custody, even if they helped protect citizens. It was in his best interest to take cover and find a way out, and encourage the other Stormcloaks to do the same.

      Ulfric with his measely knowledge of the Thu'um can only defeat a youngster who has a few basic sword training but no combat experience. You can't expect him to take on Alduin or any other dragons even if Ulfric has a Theater size army (1 million to 10 million soldiers) backing Ulfric up. Not all Thu'um users are as capable as the Last Dragonborn who can go toe to toe with Dragons and win.

      How did he defeat the high king if he was so weak?

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      Maybe we'll get Donaldi Trumpus as the new Emperor in TES 6. He'll build a wall, and make the Dominion pay for it!

      man.. I was hoping for hillfric clintcloak!

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    • Terawolf119 wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      LoneGunMenWander wrote: Stormcloaks they are the only way to achieve freedom from the Thalmor and to get the worship of Talos back.

      No they aren't. Do you think the Empire will keep the Talos ban forever? HA! No.

      Kicking the Empire out may give Skyrim freedom... temporary, it wouldn't be long before the province starves and the Dominion invades.

      1. Ya but the empire will collapse before then.

      2. ya think they wouldn't do it any way?

      1. [citation needed]

      2. Nope, because why sail all the way around to Skyrim and possibly lose some ships with your armies on it, while you could also use those same forces to invade Cyrodiil?

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    • I have an idea. Why not have everybody live in peace? The stormcloaks can secretly worship talos, like put it to where they have a basement and hide it under their bed, and the empire will keep the dominion out of skyrim. It's like, a win - win thing. And if they get caught worshiping talos, they'd kill the dominion soldiers and hide the bodies so nobody knew what had happened. Imo

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    • KavuTheSangheili wrote:
      I have an idea. Why not have everybody live in peace?

      The stormcloaks can secretly worship talos, like put it to where they have a basement and hide it under their bed, and the empire will keep the dominion out of skyrim. It's like, a win - win thing. And if they get caught worshiping talos, they'd kill the dominion soldiers and hide the bodies so nobody knew what had happened. Imo

      I like this idea so long as I can keep smashing people with my axe.

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    • 80.216.198.241 wrote:
      Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:

      "Long live the Stormcloaks" and "I never liked the Thalmor anyway" are two contradictory statements. The Stormcloaks are doing exactly what the Thalmor desire: they weaken the Empire, making it easier for the Thalmor to take over

      They dictate the laws, they've already taken over.


      For example?

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    • Watch you guys talk about this civil war is really fun. I don't chose sides, I chose season unding, but I ask me which sides i would chose, I chose Jarl of Whithrun, Balgruuf the Greater, he don't care about which sides, hear about dragon attack a small village in Rivenwood, then send army to protect his people from dragon attack. And look at someone try to attack Whiterun after that action, how dare you.

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    • Read something about "secret Thalmor police" and "interrogation", reminds me of WWII and the Gestapo... Ironic, maybe not just a coincidence... Hmmm? To be honest, some times even I can't tell the difference. The Thalmor only have pointy ears and long robes, then again, Gestapo had a robe-like jacket and fedora hats... Possibly hiding their pointy ears too? Haha. Just thinking makes me laugh...

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    •  mrwisegamer

      mrwisegamer asked:

      Stormcloak supporters want to refute the Imperial Bible and I am like: Hey guys, you don't need to concern yourselves with this dude. ColonelKillaBee, already refuted his points. Furthermore this dude's arguments are based by nothing more but emotions and irrational hatred on Ulfric and his Stormcloaks, he is a Stormcloakphobe. This fact has made many imperial supporters, who read his arguments, to switch sides and join the Stormcloaks, this makes him quite the ASSET to us. 

      lol I think you’re right, which is why I stopped at commenting on only two parts. I didn’t make the SCB to go tit for tat against someone anyway, if someone thinks @dovahsaurusbrasiliensis made some good points and wants me to address them, they know my blog name and where the ask box is. Still haven’t gotten any yet. Actually I got more traffic on my SCB after he wrote that so hats off to ya, dude XD

      If someone who actually knows how to write a good rebuttal wants to do what I did btw, I’m all for that. I’d love to see someone that knows about the lore write up a defense for the Empire, I want to see if anyone actually can.

      sentinel-f**ker

      sentinel-f**ker asked:

      I've watched all his videos and it's very clear that he has an irrational hatred from Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. Everything, every character says has to do in some way with the Stormcloaks and why they are wrong. It's quite funny actually. And in the recent episodes he talks about the the Stormcloak Bible. 

      I bet if he saw my tattoo he’d get a Stormcloak bear with an X over it.


      Refuting the Stormcloak Bible PART 3 (Can Skyrim defend itself?)

      colonelkillabee:

      dovahsaurusbrasiliensis:

      Stormcloaks are often biased and show little knowledge about the lore (or they actually know about it and just refuse to accept the facts) and most rebels show a lack of observation skill, making superficial analysis about very complex things (sometimes more complex than they look). The Stormcloak bible is a great example of this (if not THE BEST example) and in these posts I plan to refute some (if not most) of the statements shown there (I do not plan to refute all points because I am not a know everything cunt. Of course somethings there may be true).

      In the third part of this “bible” (http://colonelkillabee.tumblr.com/post/69090901004/stormcloak-bible-part-3-can-skyrim-defend-itself), the author tries to prove that Skyrim can defend itself without the empire. Lets take a closer look at this.

      First he says that the Thalmor can not reach Skyrim trough Morrowind and/or Hammerfell, what is actually true, and states that Thalmor armies are not allowed in imperial provinces and thus na invasion trough Cyrodiil would not be na option (funny how many people say that the empire is a puppet of the Thalmor while completely agree with The Stormcloak guy). However when imperial supporters talk about a war with the Thalmor, they talk about the day when the Empire and the Dominion will fight against each other once again (or when the empire gets wekned enough if the Stormcloaks win the Civil war), thus making his first paragraph a fallacy (fallacy of the straw man) since he distorted the position of imperial supporters.

      Next he talks about the natural borders of Skyrim (“Now look at Skyrim’s natural barriers. Mountains. The worst kind. You cannot sustain a flow of troops and supplies through a mountain range. Not easily anyway. Couple that with the intense weather, and you have a complete supply chain disaster, easily cut off with avalanches, ambushes in the mountains, and already made impractical and long treks due to the mountains already”). Funny how he said that the “Skyrim can not defend itself” argument is silly while he thinks that mountains are great protectors of Skyrim’s borders. If this was true the empire would not send troops against the rebels so easily (and in Season Unending Tullius will say that The Rift will help to enforce the communications with Cyrodiil if Riften is given to the imperials). If there are justiciars walking around Skyrim, they know how to effectively get in the province, thus making this argument very weak.

      Then he talks about the avalanches in the Pale Pass, what has made it difficult for the empire to protect Falkreath from the rebels. This is not only a great contradiction (because even with fewer imperial troops, the stormcloaks were unable to take Falkreath), but also really nonsense since the Pale Pass would not be the only option (or I must repeat what Tullius may say about The Rift in Season Unending?). The dumbest part of the paragraph I show he states that the Thalmor would be at disvantage due to Skyrim’s cold climate. If one makes a very superficial analizys about it, The Stormcloak Guy may look like he is right, but HELLO: has this guy ever heard about ENCHANTMENTS? The Altmer are naturally the best mages in Tamriel, so getting resist magic or at least resist cold enchantments for the Aldmeri army would be really easy.

      Now we get to where the author talks about the possibility of a naval attack. Well, he is right about the fact that the Dominion can not attack Skyrim dirrectly from Alinor(what is actually true due to the distance between the provinces and due to how treacherous the Sea of Ghosts can be), but he commited the very same mistake in this statement: he talked about an attack directly from Alinor, while what the Thalmor actually want is to have the empire wekned so they can get more spots for na assault to Skyrim. If the empire loses the war, it will only have Cyrodiil (whose cities and even the White-Gold Tower are not fully restored due to the Empire’s effort to make the army strong enough to fight back), Morrowind (that is still damaged by the eruption of the Red Mountain and seems to be a bit unfriendly towards the Empire) and High Rock (that is small, so have a small amount of resources and soldiers). This will make the Empire weak enough for the Thalmor to attack and destroy it, or maybe even wait for the Empire to collapse (the same results can happen if the empire gets weakned enough trough the war). But in both ways the Thalmor will be able to found a new empire and it won’t be difficult to dominate the former imperial provinces.

      After this, the Thalmor will be able to do a suprise attack to Hammerfell from High Rock (North), from Cyrodiil (South) and from the sea (West). Having in mind that back in the Great War the redguards were barely able to handle a single Aldmeri army, it would not be difficult for the Thalmor to dominate Hammerfell (even tough it would not be needed). Oh, and before a biased Stormcloak says that the redguards defeated the Dominion: The conflicts between the redguards and the dominion only ended with a PEACE TREATY and after the Thalmor left Hammerfell, the entire province became devasted and diminished EVEN IF THE THALMOR ONLY MANAGED TO INVADE IT’S SOUTHERN REGION, wich means the redguards were at the same level or even below the level of the Thalmor ((because a whole province was not able to fully take down an aldmeri army in FIVE years and even had a little help from the Bretons of High Rock, while THREE imperial armies were barely able to defeat Naarifin’s army). “But the Aldmeri Forces in Hammerfell were exausted when it happened” sure, but Hammerfell, altough independant, also became a devastated nation (as I said before). Without mentioning that the redguards fought that army to a standstill (without any progress) while the war was still goin on on most of southern Hammerfell, so the redguards definitely did NOT defeat the Dominion.

      So there will be only one more province for the Thalmor to dominate: SKYRIM. The Thalmor will be able to do surprise attacks from almost every region (except from the sea and from the east if they did not attack Hammerfell), and having in mind that the Thalmor would have their superior magical knowledge and resources from almost every part of Tamriel at their side, the Stormcloaks would be at a great disvantage. Now we get to the cherry of the cake, that this time was something tht the author did NOT talk about: if the Thalmor managed to invade Skyrim, would the Stormcloaks be able to handle them? No, they wouldn’t, because (as I said in Part 1) the Stormcloaks SUCK on the battlefield. if one wants to make Skyrim militarily powerful, the army has to be organized, has no know how to use resources and know to make devent war strategies. And the Stormcloak army lacks all of these features: the soldiers of a single troop with a single objective are allowed to wear three very different types of helmet (some covering the faces, some not covering the faces) and use many different weapons (some use one handed weapons without a shield). Some weapons are better for certain situations, so a single troop should have at least similar equipment (this also shows that the Stormcloaks do not know how to use resources for the army). How can a troop be easily successful while being so unnorganized like this? And about the strategies: the Haafingar Stormcloak Camp is located between the Dragon Bridge (home to some of the Emperor’s personal body guards) and Solitude (the imperial capital in Skyrim), and is protected only by a small hill (and if you stand there you can see Solitude in the background). One can not be serious when saying that this is a good strategy (keeping wounded soldiers, making equipment and getting ready for battle right under the nose of the enemy). The Thalmor, at the other hand, are far more organized since they only use one handed weapons and Shields (and when they do not use Shields they Always use spells). With this said, I can say that Skyrim would not be able to effectively and that the Stormcloaks would be destroyed by the Thalmor if the empire loses the Civil War.

      First of all, if you really wanted to “refute” my bible:

      1. How about tagging or messaging me in some way before you insult and slander me.

      2. Look up what a straw man is.

      3. And what a fact is.

      The Empire talking about fighting the Thalmor and actually doing so are two very different things. You saying that they mention this does not refute what I said, which is that if the Thalmor’s agreement with the Empire permitted them to send armies through their borders, the Legion wouldn’t be guarding them, and the Thalmor would have sent more than their Justiciars to weed out Talos worshipers. It also does not make it a strawman argument, because you’re definitely ill informed on the Imperial supporter’s stance. It makes no sense to talk about keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim, if they’re talking about a supposed inevitable fight with said Thalmor in the first place. The whole point about keeping the Thalmor out of Skyrim is that Skyrim needs their legionnaires to protect them. If a war is inevitable, and they’re talking about that said war, then they’ll have legionnaires fighting the Thalmor no matter what, and what Skyrim does doesn’t matter a bit.

      So no, the Thalmor cannot just simply send an army into Skyrim, the Empire sent Tullius to raise an army simply to prevent Skyrim from seceding, so that they could have Skyrim’s resources to fight who? The Thalmor. They couldn’t and wouldn’t allow their enemy to be on two fronts with them stuck in the middle. Hence, again, the army guarding their southern border. From. The Thalmor. Not something you disagreed with, but I just wanted to get that point across because it IS actually the Imperial stance. 

      Not that the legion is needed to protect Skyrim when the next war starts. They’ll be there no matter what because of where Cyrodiil is located, which is something I mentioned in my bible originally BTW.

      An army that was so important to them that they only sent one General to Skyrim, and recruited everyone locally to fight Ulfric.

      So refute refuted.

      Next you go on to insult me because of what I said about the mountains. First of all, the Thalmor again did not send an army, they sent a small group, which was not meant for an invasion. THAT is what we’re talking about here when we’re talking natural borders and being hard to sustain a supply line.

      And again, Tullius is recruiting locally, so his army comes from WITHIN Skyrim, not outside it. That is why Falkreath is still a target that wasn’t easily taken, not to mention, Ulfric was waiting for the opportunity to attack Whiterun first….

      It isn’t the only way into Skyrim, no but it is the best way from Southern Cyrodiil, hence why it’s traditionally their main supply line to and from Skyrim. If you only have a few safe ways into a land, it makes invading difficult because it’s easily protected by those you’re trying to invade…

      As for enchantments? You’re not taking into consideration the cost of enchanting or providing an entire invasion force with frost resistant gear or potions… It’s not that simple, and is just one more obstacle in the way of practically invading a land that is almost the entire continent away.

      The rest of this load of garbage is pure conjecture and assumes that the Empire would not practically beg a freed Skyrim for assistance against the elves, which on certain conditions the Nords would undoubtedly join in. This may be called conjecture as well but unlike yours, mine is backed by the fact that Ulfric has expressed strong desires to fight the elves. And if for nothing else, they’re going to help because of survival. How stupid do you think they are, to just sit there and watch their enemy attack a neighboring land and sit long enough for them to win so that they can FINALLY be somewhere close enough to launch an attack by sea or by land where there only two options aren’t deadly path plagued by avalanches or the one other path that they’d no doubt also be guarding stronger than a father’s virgin daughter in Haelga’s Bunkhouse?

      Lol. You don’t have to agree with what I said, but if you’re gonna refute something, make sure your argument is ironclad.

      Stormcloak Guy's been refuting that guy's refutes, also anyone sane, knows that that guy is a total jerk, you guys lost imperials becuase of him.

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    • Anyone want to post their ENTIRE argument? I feel like takeing on somethin' HUGE.

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    • Terawolf119 wrote:
      Anyone want to post their ENTIRE argument? I feel like takeing on somethin' HUGE.

      Nope I'm good

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    • King Krool The Lord wrote:
      I've been a Stormcloak from the beginning, but I'd just like to see other opinions or reasons why.

      (My reason is simply that I don't like siding with the people who tried to decapitate me.)

      bards college all day

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    • Terawolf119 wrote: I feel like takeing on somethin' HUGE.

      That feels so right.

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    • Terawolf119 wrote:
      Anyone want to post their ENTIRE argument? I feel like takeing on somethin' HUGE.

      Both the Stormcloak and Imperial bibles listed above, their refutations and counter-refutations, are nothing new. If you're looking for a Stormcloak vs Imperial debate, you're a few years late. They used to happen nearly every day, then most of us here got tired of the never-ending arguments and agreed to disagree.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      Terawolf119 wrote:
      Anyone want to post their ENTIRE argument? I feel like takeing on somethin' HUGE.
      Both the Stormcloak and Imperial bibles listed above, their refutations and counter-refutations, are nothing new. If you're looking for a Stormcloak vs Imperial debate, you're a few years late. They used to happen nearly every day, then most of us here got tired of the never-ending arguments and agreed to disagree.

      Ya, so did I, thats why I stopped for the most part... I just had the certain erge to debate something huge. (P.S. I wasn't going to use the bibles...)

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    • "I've watched all his videos and it's very clear that he has an irrational hatred from Ulfric and the Stormcloaks. Everything, every character says has to do in some way with the Stormcloaks and why they are wrong. It's quite funny actually. And in the recent episodes he talks about the the Stormcloak Bible. "


      you realise someone has a weak position, or at least that the person is barely able to justify it, when the person just attacks the author instead of the said points. Ridiculous.

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    • "Stormcloak Guy's been refuting that guy's refutes, also anyone sane, knows that that guy is a total jerk, you guys lost imperials becuase of him."

      Well this must be why The Stormcloak Guy did not even answer to the replies to his critique. Also colonelkillabee only criticised 2 parts (1 and 3, simply skipped part 2) of 7 parts (what can clearely be seen on "Refuting the Stormcloak Bible Complete") and you say the refutes (like all of them) were refuted? After the Stormcloak guy criticized the post, well, just read https://dovahsaurusbrasiliensis.tumblr.com/post/157620295501/refuting-the-stormcloak-bible-part-1-analysis-of#notes and as you can see The Stormcloak Guy did not reply it. So yeah: "colonelkillabee refuted" my ass

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    • Terawolf119 wrote:
      Anyone want to post their ENTIRE argument? I feel like takeing on somethin' HUGE.

      Not actually. He barely replied to my posts (yes: I am The Imperial Dinosaur). Like: of 7 parts he only replied to 2 (1 and 3, simply fuck part 2 right?) and did not move a finger after I gave more counter points. All he did after that was to attack me (as you could see in the comments posted in this very thread by two of the fankids of colonelkillabee) "The Stormcloak Guy refuted this guy refut... what? He answered and colonelkillabee did not care? Fuck this man! Colonelkillabee refuted everything because I said so"

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    • Ok dude chill out

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    • LoneGunMenWander wrote:
      Ok dude chill out

      And what if I do not want to?

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    • Terawolf119 wrote:
      Draevan13 wrote:
      Terawolf119 wrote:
      Anyone want to post their ENTIRE argument? I feel like takeing on somethin' HUGE.
      Both the Stormcloak and Imperial bibles listed above, their refutations and counter-refutations, are nothing new. If you're looking for a Stormcloak vs Imperial debate, you're a few years late. They used to happen nearly every day, then most of us here got tired of the never-ending arguments and agreed to disagree.
      Ya, so did I, thats why I stopped for the most part... I just had the certain erge to debate something huge. (P.S. I wasn't going to use the bibles...)

      Ah and one more thing, TeraWolf: to say "you imperials lost because of him" is kinda silly and childish, mainly due to everything I already said... and you did not reply.

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    • Goredovah wrote:

      And what if I do not want to?

      I don't know an onion will fall out the sky or something I just asked you take it down a notch or two and so I don't go too far off topic. STORMCLOAKS ROCK!!!!!

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    • LoneGunMenWander wrote:

      Goredovah wrote:

      And what if I do not want to?

      I don't and onion will fall out the sky or something I just asked you take it down a notch or two and so I don't go too far off topic. STORMCLOAKS ROCK!!!!!

      They are badly losing the war though.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      They are badly losing the war though.

      Not in my game.

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    • LoneGunMenWander wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      They are badly losing the war though.

      Not in my game.

      In the lore they are.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      In the lore they are.

      In what way. Also is anyone going to ask about the onion, cuse thier is a really wierd story behind it.

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    • LoneGunMenWander wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      In the lore they are.

      In what way. Also is anyone going to ask about the onion, cuse thier is a really wierd story behind it.

      • General Tullius, regardless of who you join, states during Season Unending that they are pushing the Stormcloaks back well enough. (they are already overstretched though)
      • Galmar states during a conversation with Ulfric that 'our men (Stormcloaks) are getting massacred out there, damn Imperials.
      • Whiterun will join the Empire in the canon lore, as both questlines agree on this, giving the Empire a greater advantage.
      • Another proper Imperial army is assembling at Pale Pass and waiting for it to clear in order to march into Skyrim.
      • The Legion of Skyrim consists of locally recruited scouts and skirmishers and is still able to massacre the best the Stormcloaks have to offer. Aka, the worst of the Empire > The best of the Stormcloaks.
      • General Tullius was able to get deep into Stormcloak territory, ambush Ulfric and his top lieutenants, capture them, and escape, all without any form of resistance, meaning that the Stormcloaks are even too weak to properly guard their leader and their borders.
      • Imperials are able to infiltrate all the way up to Shor's Watchtower and take out the stationed Stormcloaks without losing a single soldier.
      • The Empire has much richer holds and more supplies.

      Does that answer your question?

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:
      • General Tullius, regardless of who you join, states during Season Unending that they are pushing the Stormcloaks back well enough. (they are already overstretched though)
      • Galmar states during a conversation with Ulfric that 'our men (Stormcloaks) are getting massacred out there, damn Imperials.
      • Whiterun will join the Empire in the canon lore, as both questlines agree on this, giving the Empire a greater advantage.
      • Another proper Imperial army is assembling at Pale Pass and waiting for it to clear in order to march into Skyrim.
      • The Legion of Skyrim consists of locally recruited scouts and skirmishers and is still able to massacre the best the Stormcloaks have to offer. Aka, the worst of the Empire > The best of the Stormcloaks.
      • General Tullius was able to get deep into Stormcloak territory, ambush Ulfric and his top lieutenants, capture them, and escape, all without any form of resistance, meaning that the Stormcloaks are even too weak to properly guard their leader and their borders.
      • Imperials are able to infiltrate all the way up to Shor's Watchtower and take out the stationed Stormcloaks without losing a single soldier.
      • The Empire has much richer holds and more supplies.

      Does that answer your question?

      It does, but that won't change my opinion about the Stormcloaks. I feel that they are the last hope for Skyrim and I'm willing to die holding my beliefs.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      They are badly losing the war though.

      If I remember correctly, the Imperial Legion in Skyrim is only 1 of the Empire's Legions, and there are at least 17 others (the highest number we hear of is the 18th Legion). If Ulfric can barely win against 1 Legion, the Empire could easily win if they bring in more Legions.

      The problem of course being that those Legions are needed in Cyrodiil to hold of the upcoming Dominion invasion. Ulfric timed his rebellion perfectly, it seems. Normally, he'd get roflstomped.

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    • Draevan13 wrote:
      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      They are badly losing the war though.

      If I remember correctly, the Imperial Legion in Skyrim is only 1 of the Empire's Legions, and there are at least 17 others (the highest number we hear of is the 18th Legion). If Ulfric can barely win against 1 Legion, the Empire could easily win if they bring in more Legions.

      The problem of course being that those Legions are needed in Cyrodiil to hold of the upcoming Dominion invasion. Ulfric timed his rebellion perfectly, it seems. Normally, he'd get roflstomped.

      Well, even now.

      General Tullius states that, despite being overstretched, they are pushing the Stormcloaks back well enough (regardless of you being neutral, Stormcloak or Imperial). Legion soldiers are active in Winterhold, with Ulfric not seeming to care and thus, likely not going to send back-up. Galmar states that the Legion is massacring the Stormcloaks and Tullius was able to capture Ulfric in his capital Hold without as much as a problem.

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    • I have always joined the Stormcloaks. I don't  really know why, but I feel like the Thlamor have a big part to play in my choice. I don't like Talos that much, but even in real life I feel like anyone should be able to believe anything they want. The Thalmor even capture and torture people to get information, even if thecy don't really worship Talos. Ulfric Stormcloak isn't the best guy, but  he is much better than General Tullius.

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    • VathPro wrote:
      I have always joined the Stormcloaks. I don't  really know why, but I feel like the Thlamor have a big part to play in my choice. I don't like Talos that much, but even in real life I feel like anyone should be able to believe anything they want. The Thalmor even capture and torture people to get information, even if thecy don't really worship Talos. Ulfric Stormcloak isn't the best guy, but  he is much better than General Tullius.

      Don't you understand why the Thalmor are in Skyrim? Because Ulfric drew them there. The only reason the Thalmor care for Talos worship is because they knew the Nords would rebel, the Stormcloaks are doing exactly what the Thalmor want, and they don't even know it. The Empire does.


      Now, in real life. Would you rather:

      A: Serve a racist.

      B: Serve someone who has banned a religion

      Remember, a religion can be worshiped in your heart, racism is something you can't do anything about.


      Granted that Tullius is litterally a millitary commander, not meant for governing, it shouldn't surrpise you. But even then, if Ulfric's even better, it's this close to him being equal or worse.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Don't you understand why the Thalmor are in Skyrim? Because Ulfric drew them there. The only reason the Thalmor care for Talos worship is because they knew the Nords would rebel, the Stormcloaks are doing exactly what the Thalmor want, and they don't even know it. The Empire does.


      Now, in real life. Would you rather:

      A: Serve a racist.

      B: Serve someone who has banned a religion

      Remember, a religion can be worshiped in your heart, racism is something you can't do anything about.


      Granted that Tullius is litterally a millitary commander, not meant for governing, it shouldn't surrpise you. But even then, if Ulfric's even better, it's this close to him being equal or worse.

      Ok, but if the Empire isn't racist then why is even Imperial controlled holds don't allow Khajiit into their cities isn't that being racist. Just because a few can't be trusted doesn't mean they all can't

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    • Only the Khajiits merchants are not allowed to enter the cities because they are fences and skooma dealers. This is valid for Stormcloaks controlled holds too. And if the Empre were racists they wouldn't allow a Nord and a High Eld to be legates.

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    • LoneGunMenWander wrote:

      Ok, but if the Empire isn't racist then why is even Imperial controlled holds don't allow Khajiit into their cities isn't that being racist. Just because a few can't be trusted doesn't mean they all can't

      I'd assume that decision is ultimately up to the Nord Jarls governing the cities, because in Cyrodiil there are plenty of Khajiit in the cities (especially in Bravil and Leyawiin). 

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote:
      Only the Khajiits merchants are not allowed to enter the cities because they are fences and skooma dealers. This is valid for Stormcloaks controlled holds too. And if the Empre were racists they wouldn't allow a Nord and a High Eld to be legates.

      Nords, Bretons, Imperials, Redguards, Dark Elves, High Elves, and a retired Orc member of the Legion, too. 

      Clearly the Empire is PC, brah i.imgur.com/xDHMh0j.png

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    • Shigeru Thalmor Slayer wrote: Only the Khajiits merchants are not allowed to enter the cities because they are fences and skooma dealers. This is valid for Stormcloaks controlled holds too. And if the Empre were racists they wouldn't allow a Nord and a High Eld to be legates.

      I'm not saying they're being racist to all races just khajiits.

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    • LoneGunMenWander wrote:

      Ok, but if the Empire isn't racist then why is even Imperial controlled holds don't allow Khajiit into their cities isn't that being racist. Just because a few can't be trusted doesn't mean they all can't

      They dont allow Khajiit caravans in, not Khajiits, the very lighthouse keeper of Solitude is a Khajiit. Just because the caravans deal in Skooma -- an outlawed narcotic in the Empire, doesn't mean that keeping said caravans outside is racist.

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    • I agree with everything the Imperial supporters say. Firstly, the Ban on Talos worship was forced or else the Nords themselves would have suffered. They hated the Great War, so they should support the Ban. Thing is, the Nationalist, Racist Stormcloaks jsut have to claim there fighting for relgious freedom when really they are disuniting the human kingdoms. As of 175, all of the Imperial provinces happen to be human, and if Skyrim sperated, then the Empire would collapse. The Thalmor could easily invade Cyordill or Hammerfell, and all of the human kingdoms would be eradicated. The Stormcloaks are ultimately what the dominion will use to take Tamriel for themselves. 


      Of course, Legion governance didn;t actually effect the Nordic people. There was no curelty, and the Stormcloaks were born mostly out of Ulfric's ambition to control Skyrim. We can admit that a Skyrim nation would be crushed by the Dominion Army. The Stormcloaks are Thalmor slaves, and they are the fools here.

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    • 121.75.171.109 wrote:
      I agree with everything the Imperial supporters say. Firstly, the Ban on Talos worship was forced or else the Nords themselves would have suffered. They hated the Great War, so they should support the Ban. Thing is, the Nationalist, Racist Stormcloaks jsut have to claim there fighting for relgious freedom when really they are disuniting the human kingdoms. As of 175, all of the Imperial provinces happen to be human, and if Skyrim sperated, then the Empire would collapse. The Thalmor could easily invade Cyordill or Hammerfell, and all of the human kingdoms would be eradicated. The Stormcloaks are ultimately what the dominion will use to take Tamriel for themselves. 


      Of course, Legion governance didn;t actually effect the Nordic people. There was no curelty, and the Stormcloaks were born mostly out of Ulfric's ambition to control Skyrim. We can admit that a Skyrim nation would be crushed by the Dominion Army. The Stormcloaks are Thalmor slaves, and they are the fools here.

      Dam I had hoped this thread had died oh well. Dam Imperial.

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    • I certainly will not join with a group that wanted to behead me just for try cross a border, besides, fighting for the Septim Empire is just a lost cause, with the end of the Septim Dynasty with the death of Martin Septim, the prophesy also dictates their unavoidable destruction as a whole. Even if the Septim Empire keeps Skyrim, this will not change, also the natural xenphobic or paranoic way of life of the Nordic people, will be the same as always, because of their constant wars for survival against the Mer during all their hystory, since their ancestors the Atmorans first came to Tamriel through Skyrim from Atmora, the strong hatred & prejudice between the races of Men & Mer have always been a constant.[0_0]

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    • Forget everything you read above. The choice, it is yours. Just join whatever side you feel like you want to join. Maybe join the stormcloaks spontaneously just because they have funny helmets. Join the imperials because you just visited solitude.

      Nobody can tell you what side to choose. You need to let your heart do it, our you'll regret that.

      (Did both sides in seperate playthroughs, first was Imperial)

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    • Raythornclaw wrote: Forget everything you read above. The choice, it is yours. Just join whatever side you feel like you want to join.

      But the whole point of this thread is to get other people's opinions.

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote: I certainly will not join with a group that wanted to behead me just for try cross a border, besides, fighting for the Septim Empire is just a lost cause, with the end of the Septim Dynasty with the death of Martin Septim, the prophesy also dictates their unavoidable destruction as a whole. Even if the Septim Empire keeps Skyrim, this will not change, also the natural xenphobic or paranoic way of life of the Nordic people, will be the same as always, because of their constant wars for survival against the Mer during all their hystory, since their ancestors the Atmorans first came to Tamriel through Skyrim from Atmora, the strong hatred & prejudice between the races of Men & Mer have always been a constant.[0_0]

      They tried to kill you because they thought you were a Stormcloak.

      There is no prophecy that describes the Empire's destruction.

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    • Purrington wrote:

      Raythornclaw wrote: Forget everything you read above. The choice, it is yours. Just join whatever side you feel like you want to join.

      But the whole point of this thread is to get other people's opinions.


      Yes, but don't let yourself get influenced by the decisions in this thread. Its a good topic, but noone really can tell you which side. This thread is a comparison, but unable to make you want to choose one side. If you still do that, you may feel as if you miss something.

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    • Raythornclaw wrote: Yes, but don't let yourself get influenced by the decisions in this thread. Its a good topic, but noone really can tell you which side. This thread is a comparison, but unable to make you want to choose one side. If you still do that, you may feel as if you miss something.

      Well...that's not the purpose of this discussion. It's supposed to be discussing which side you feel is right/the wisest choice, with the goal of convincing everyone that theirs is the correct choice.

      I think what you meant to say was, "Don't let anyone bully you into choosing a side."

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:

      Raythornclaw wrote: Yes, but don't let yourself get influenced by the decisions in this thread. Its a good topic, but noone really can tell you which side. This thread is a comparison, but unable to make you want to choose one side. If you still do that, you may feel as if you miss something.

      Well...that's not the purpose of this discussion. It's supposed to be discussing which side you feel is right/the wisest choice, with the goal of convincing everyone that theirs is the correct choice.

      I think what you meant to say was, "Don't let anyone bully you into choosing a side."


      If you let another person perusade you that your side is the best, you'll just keep denying the truth that you maybe like the other side a bit better. Because in this argument, there is no winning nor losing side.

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    • Raythornclaw wrote:

      Ottoman Hold wrote:

      Raythornclaw wrote: Yes, but don't let yourself get influenced by the decisions in this thread. Its a good topic, but noone really can tell you which side. This thread is a comparison, but unable to make you want to choose one side. If you still do that, you may feel as if you miss something.

      Well...that's not the purpose of this discussion. It's supposed to be discussing which side you feel is right/the wisest choice, with the goal of convincing everyone that theirs is the correct choice.

      I think what you meant to say was, "Don't let anyone bully you into choosing a side."


      If you let another person perusade you that your side is the best, you'll just keep denying the truth that you maybe like the other side a bit better. Because in this argument, there is no winning nor losing side.

      That all depends on morals.

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    • Recently finished the civil war for the first time.  Chose Imperials but some quests required pretty shady dealings, tough for my character to live with.  Started leaving Inigo at home so he would not witness it.  Plus that new Jarl of Riften, ferchrissakes!  Props to Beth for making the story interesting enough for me to care about it tho.  Later I'll try the Stormcloak side and hope I get thru it without feeling like I need a shower. 

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    • You'll feel the urge to rub Purell on your brain after claiming Skyrim for the Stormcloaks.

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    • The Empire is almost comically evil and corrupt.

      Stormcloaks for life!

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Raythornclaw wrote:

      Ottoman Hold wrote:

      Raythornclaw wrote: Yes, but don't let yourself get influenced by the decisions in this thread. Its a good topic, but noone really can tell you which side. This thread is a comparison, but unable to make you want to choose one side. If you still do that, you may feel as if you miss something.

      Well...that's not the purpose of this discussion. It's supposed to be discussing which side you feel is right/the wisest choice, with the goal of convincing everyone that theirs is the correct choice.

      I think what you meant to say was, "Don't let anyone bully you into choosing a side."


      If you let another person perusade you that your side is the best, you'll just keep denying the truth that you maybe like the other side a bit better. Because in this argument, there is no winning nor losing side.
      That all depends on morals.


      Define morals

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    • Raythornclaw wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Raythornclaw wrote:

      Ottoman Hold wrote:

      Raythornclaw wrote: Yes, but don't let yourself get influenced by the decisions in this thread. Its a good topic, but noone really can tell you which side. This thread is a comparison, but unable to make you want to choose one side. If you still do that, you may feel as if you miss something.

      Well...that's not the purpose of this discussion. It's supposed to be discussing which side you feel is right/the wisest choice, with the goal of convincing everyone that theirs is the correct choice.

      I think what you meant to say was, "Don't let anyone bully you into choosing a side."


      If you let another person perusade you that your side is the best, you'll just keep denying the truth that you maybe like the other side a bit better. Because in this argument, there is no winning nor losing side.
      That all depends on morals.


      Define morals

      What one considers important for himself or the people.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sarge TiTan wrote: I certainly will not join with a group that wanted to behead me just for try cross a border, besides, fighting for the Septim Empire is just a lost cause, with the end of the Septim Dynasty with the death of Martin Septim, the prophesy also dictates their unavoidable destruction as a whole. Even if the Septim Empire keeps Skyrim, this will not change, also the natural xenphobic or paranoic way of life of the Nordic people, will be the same as always, because of their constant wars for survival against the Mer during all their hystory, since their ancestors the Atmorans first came to Tamriel through Skyrim from Atmora, the strong hatred & prejudice between the races of Men & Mer have always been a constant.[0_0]

      They tried to kill you because they thought you were a Stormcloak.

      There is no prophecy that describes the Empire's destruction.

      If that was the case, then when his name was not found on the list they were supposed to release him, not kill him anyway, & obviously causing to doom themselves even more, if they were successful on that too.[-_-]

      For the other matter, is part of the same prophecy that predicts the comes of the Laat Dovahkiin centuries before, afther the end of the Septim Dynasty, of course that some of that information is explaned on figurative terms, so is undertandable if someone is not capable to fill that puzzle properly on a literal way. Also that is not a surprise, because it happened the same with the end of the others dynasties from the previous empires of Men, like the Ysgramor Dynasty for start, with the death of Borgas, so is basically like a endless cycle of temporary explendor & followed by an epic falling.

      Actually by the begining of the game, the Septim Empire only retains Skyrim, High Rock & Cyrodiil officlially under ints decadent banner.[0_0]

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote: If that was the case, then when his name was not found on the list they were supposed to release him, not kill him anyway, & obviously causing to doom themselves even more, if they were successful on that too.[-_-]

      For the other matter, is part of the same prophecy that predicts the comes of the Laat Dovahkiin centuries before, afther the end of the Septim Dynasty, of course that some of that information is explaned on figurative terms, so is undertandable if someone is not capable to fill that puzzle properly on a literal way. Also that is not a surprise, because it happened the same with the end of the others dynasties from the previous empires of Men, like the Ysgramor Dynasty for start, with the death of Borgas, so is basically like a endless cycle of temporary explendor & followed by an epic falling.

      Actually by the begining of the game, the Septim Empire only retains Skyrim, High Rock & Cyrodiil officlially under ints decadent banner.[0_0]

      The LDB was still a criminal, not a Stormcloak, but a criminal nonetheless.

      An end of a dynasty does not mean the end of an Empire.

      You do realise that the Medes reclaimed most of the land, right? The Medes reclaimed High Rock, Hammerfell and Elsweyr before losing Hammerfell and Elsweyr again.

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    • I don't think the LDB being executed at Helgen had to do with them being a criminal, but because they were assumed to be a Stormcloak by the Imperials.

      Certainly they weren't on "the list" Hadvar mentions, but for all the Imperials know the LDB could be a recent recruit who joined after the list was made. That and I doubt "the list" included ALL Stormcloaks anyways, that'd be a huge list...

      And I believe that, had the positions been reversed and Ulfric had captured the LDB with Tullius and his entourage, Ulfric would've done the same thing and executed them just to be on the safe side. I know I would have.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sarge TiTan wrote: If that was the case, then when his name was not found on the list they were supposed to release him, not kill him anyway, & obviously causing to doom themselves even more, if they were successful on that too.[-_-]

      For the other matter, is part of the same prophecy that predicts the comes of the Laat Dovahkiin centuries before, afther the end of the Septim Dynasty, of course that some of that information is explaned on figurative terms, so is undertandable if someone is not capable to fill that puzzle properly on a literal way. Also that is not a surprise, because it happened the same with the end of the others dynasties from the previous empires of Men, like the Ysgramor Dynasty for start, with the death of Borgas, so is basically like a endless cycle of temporary explendor & followed by an epic falling.

      Actually by the begining of the game, the Septim Empire only retains Skyrim, High Rock & Cyrodiil officlially under ints decadent banner.[0_0]

      The LDB was still a criminal, not a Stormcloak, but a criminal nonetheless.

      An end of a dynasty does not mean the end of an Empire.

      You do realise that the Medes reclaimed most of the land, right? The Medes reclaimed High Rock, Hammerfell and Elsweyr before losing Hammerfell and Elsweyr again.

      A criminal for just to try cross a border, are you serious?

      & the sole idea of think that any supposed criminal deserves to be executed without any kind of trial for start, is just ridiculous, if not directly evil.

      The Septim Dynasty was the one that created, & directly allowed the Septim Empire to exist during the pass of the ages. I do not believe in coincidences, so the actual state of what is left of the Septim Empire, is all thanks to the Mede Dynasty, the Medes comes from a long line of comerciants, meaning that their interest is money, not the people.

      Entire nations like Hammerfell were left to the mercy of the Mer kind, because Mede Dynasty ordered in the end the withdrawal of his forces from the same, so in this case the Redguards bravely fighting for themselves, were the ones the expelled the Mer kind out of Hammerfell, & so obviously they are not happy with the Septim Empire at all for its betrayal. & that is just an example of many.[0_0]

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote:

      A criminal for just to try cross a border, are you serious?

      & the sole idea of think that any supposed criminal deserves to be executed without any kind of trial for start, is just ridiculous, if not directly evil.

      The Septim Dynasty was the one that created, & directly allowed the Septim Empire to exist during the pass of the ages. I do not believe in coincidences, so the actual state of what is left of the Septim Empire, is all thanks to the Mede Dynasty, the Medes comes from a long line of comerciants, meaning that their interest is money, not the people.

      Entire nations like Hammerfell were left to the mercy of the Mer kind, because Mede Dynasty ordered in the end the withdrawal of his forces from the same, so in this case the Redguards bravely fighting for themselves, were the ones the expelled the Mer kind out of Hammerfell, & so obviously they are not happy with the Septim Empire at all for its betrayal. & that is just an example of many.[0_0]

      I'm not the one saying it... Bethesda is...

      Because trials were such a "common thing" in medieval times, right? Besides, Stormcloaks commit high treason, punished by death. No need for a trial.

      Was it not for Uriel Septim VII being such a slacker the Empire would not have crumbled under the rule of his BFF Ocato. The Medes were not only able to reclaim most of the Empire, they were able to stop a Daedric Invasion and reclaim the Imperial City with less than 1000 men.

      The Redguards acknowledge that the Empire is needed to defeat the Dominion. Additionally, had the Concordat not been signed, Hammerfell would have been slaughtered, along with Skyrim and the rest of the Empire.

      PS: Stop writing everything in bold.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:I'm not the one saying it... Bethesda is...

      Because trials were such a "common thing" in medieval times, right? Besides, Stormcloaks commit high treason, punished by death. No need for a trial.

      Was it not for Uriel Septim VII being such a slacker the Empire would not have crumbled under the rule of his BFF Ocato. The Medes were not only able to reclaim most of the Empire, they were able to stop a Daedric Invasion and reclaim the Imperial City with less than 1000 men.

      The Redguards acknowledge that the Empire is needed to defeat the Dominion. Additionally, had the Concordat not been signed, Hammerfell would have been slaughtered, along with Skyrim and the rest of the Empire.

      PS: Stop writing everything in bold.

      The Elder Scrolls happens on another world, so the idea of "medieval times" can not be more poor. Besides the White-Gold Concordat, is just the pure example of the Septim Empire decadence, because of the Mede. The Redguards from Hammerfell do not accepted that coward deal, decided continue fighting agaist the Mer kind, even after the Septim Empire betrayal.[0_0]

      -& who the hell do you think you are to tell others how to write or type a text.

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote: The Elder Scrolls happens on another world, so the idea of "medieval times" can not be more poor. Besides the White-Gold Concordat, is just the pure example of the Septim Empire decadence, because of the Mede. The Redguards from Hammerfell do not accepted that coward deal, decided continue fighting agaist the Mer kind, even after the Septim Empire betrayal.[0_0]

      -& who the hell do you think you are to tell others how to write or type a text.

      TES being set in a medieval timeline isn't poor. It's clear on which real-time they are inspired. TES is full of real-world inspirations. Bretons are meant to represent French, Imperials are Greek/Roman based, Nords are Germanics, Argonians Aztecs, Khajiiti Indians. Orcs are clearly inspired from the works of the Lord of the Rings, alongside the Elves.

      The point is that the White-Gold Concordat was the only way for the Empire, including Hammerfell, to even stay alive. Had the Medes not signed it, Tamriel would have fallen to the Dominion.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sarge TiTan wrote: The Elder Scrolls happens on another world, so the idea of "medieval times" can not be more poor. Besides the White-Gold Concordat, is just the pure example of the Septim Empire decadence, because of the Mede. The Redguards from Hammerfell do not accepted that coward deal, decided continue fighting agaist the Mer kind, even after the Septim Empire betrayal.[0_0]

      -& who the hell do you think you are to tell others how to write or type a text.

      TES being set in a medieval timeline isn't poor. It's clear on which real-time they are inspired. TES is full of real-world inspirations. Bretons are meant to represent French, Imperials are Greek/Roman based, Nords are Germanics, Argonians Aztecs, Khajiiti Indians. Orcs are clearly inspired from the works of the Lord of the Rings, alongside the Elves.

      The point is that the White-Gold Concordat was the only way for the Empire, including Hammerfell, to even stay alive. Had the Medes not signed it, Tamriel would have fallen to the Dominion.

      Now your are just inventing, "set in a medieval timeline", besides I was referring to your idea about that matter(I know very well that historians will laugh very loudly about that one), & with the Lord Of The Rings mention, sounds even more irelevant information about the matter at hand.

      The nation Hammerfell of is not part of Septim Empire anymore, & the Redguars in there hates them becuase of their betrayal, the White-Gold Concordat was rejected by them, so that you just mentioned, is not true at all.[0_0]

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote: Now your are just inventing, "set in a medieval timeline", besides I was referring to your idea about that matter(I know very well that historians will laugh very loudly about that one), & with the Lord Of The Rings mention, sounds even more irelevant information about the matter at hand.

      The nation Hammerfell of is not part of Septim Empire anymore, & the Redguars in there hates them becuase of their betrayal, the White-Gold Concordat was rejected by them, so that you just mentioned, is not true at all.[0_0]

      Anyone with some common historical knowledge knows that it's set in a medieval setting, look at the armor, architecture, weaponry, civilisations, etc.

      Irrelevant, because the Empire would have been slaughtered had the Concordat not been signed, had the Concordat not been signed, Hammerfell wouldn't have left the Empire. You don't need to like someone to know the fact that you need them.

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    • The elments of their world can not be afected just by somothing so trivial as that, even if is true or not, any artist needs to take a base model for planning an idea, so its irrelevant for it to be even mentioned, you even say before that some ancient civilization of this world history like the Roman Empire & the Aztecs for exmple, were from the middle ages, & a historian it will take that as a travesty, nothing more, which means that your "common historical knowledge" is laughable.

      & now you are lying more, inventing information, about an entire nation, leaving the Septim Empire for something that it was not the cause of it.

      They leaved them before that treaty was signed, when they betrayed them, & left them to fight the Mer kind all for them selfs, & now because of it they hates them, the White-Gold Concordat obviously was not accepted after by them either, & they even manage to expelled the Mer kind out of Hammerfell wth the Redguard uprising, meaning that yet they live without the sole called by some, "protection" of that treaty. After all, that thing of decadent cowards, only affects the nations that are still under the tyrannical oppression of the Mede Dynasty, meaning that those nations like Hammerfell can also flourish & prosper very well without them.[0_0]

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote: The elments of their world can not be afected just by somothing so trivial as that, even if is true or not, any artist needs to take a base model for planning an idea, so its irrelevant for it to be even mentioned, you even say before that some ancient civilization of this world history like the Roman Empire & the Aztecs for exmple, were from the middle ages, & a historian it will take that as a travesty, nothing more, which means that your "common historical knowledge" is laughable.

      & now you are lying more, inventing information, about an entire nation, leaving the Septim Empire for something that it was not the cause of it.

      They leaved them before that treaty was signed, when they betrayed them, & left them to fight the Mer kind all for them selfs, & now because of it they hates them, the White-Gold Concordat obviously was not accepted after by them either, & they even manage to expelled the Mer kind out of Hammerfell wth the Redguard uprising, meaning that yet they live without the sole called by some, "protection" of that treaty. After all, that thing of decadent cowards, only affects the nations that are still under the tyrannical oppression of the Mede Dynasty, meaning that those nations like Hammerfell can also flourish & prosper very well without them.[0_0]

      Bethesda themselves stated that for example Morrowind used a lot of symbolism from the real world, to be precise, as an example: The Imperial Legion having to represent the Roman Legions. The Roman Empire still existed during the middle ages, never heard of the Byzantine, aka, Eastern-Roman Empire?

      "inventing information", please, read the loading screens in Skyrim and read the Great War.

      No they didn't, Hammerfell was renounced because the Empire signed the treaty, nothing less.

      I'm done with people like you who refuse to accept what's presented in the game.

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    • Slay

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sarge TiTan wrote: The elments of their world can not be afected just by somothing so trivial as that, even if is true or not, any artist needs to take a base model for planning an idea, so its irrelevant for it to be even mentioned, you even say before that some ancient civilization of this world history like the Roman Empire & the Aztecs for exmple, were from the middle ages, & a historian it will take that as a travesty, nothing more, which means that your "common historical knowledge" is laughable.

      & now you are lying more, inventing information, about an entire nation, leaving the Septim Empire for something that it was not the cause of it.

      They leaved them before that treaty was signed, when they betrayed them, & left them to fight the Mer kind all for them selfs, & now because of it they hates them, the White-Gold Concordat obviously was not accepted after by them either, & they even manage to expelled the Mer kind out of Hammerfell wth the Redguard uprising, meaning that yet they live without the sole called by some, "protection" of that treaty. After all, that thing of decadent cowards, only affects the nations that are still under the tyrannical oppression of the Mede Dynasty, meaning that those nations like Hammerfell can also flourish & prosper very well without them.[0_0]

      Bethesda themselves stated that for example Morrowind used a lot of symbolism from the real world, to be precise, as an example: The Imperial Legion having to represent the Roman Legions. The Roman Empire still existed during the middle ages, never heard of the Byzantine, aka, Eastern-Roman Empire?

      "inventing information", please, read the loading screens in Skyrim and read the Great War.

      No they didn't, Hammerfell was renounced because the Empire signed the treaty, nothing less.

      I'm done with people like you who refuse to accept what's presented in the game.

      & with Aztecs too on that case you mentioned? After.. all.., it is seriously doubtful that they will find themselves on that time period, & also it is a very bad example on your favor, taking in consideration that the original mighty "Roman Empire" stopped of been one single entity, & became divided between east, & west(this marked the beginning of the middle age) independently of one another, & even so, it was not enough for avoid their eventual collapse anyway. Are you really so desperate and with that desire of invent irrelevant information. I will surely not relay to those poor acts, like even mention the "Lord Of The Rings" too. Is not necessary read something, that obviously comes with previous, & still present constant resentment of an entire nation.[0_0]

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote:
      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Bethesda themselves stated that for example Morrowind used a lot of symbolism from the real world, to be precise, as an example: The Imperial Legion having to represent the Roman Legions. The Roman Empire still existed during the middle ages, never heard of the Byzantine, aka, Eastern-Roman Empire?

      "inventing information", please, read the loading screens in Skyrim and read the Great War.

      No they didn't, Hammerfell was renounced because the Empire signed the treaty, nothing less.

      I'm done with people like you who refuse to accept what's presented in the game.

      & with Aztecs too on that case you mentioned? Are you really so desperated & with that desire of invent irrelevant information. I will will surely not relay to those poor acts, like even mention the Lord Of The Rings too.

      Is not necesary read something, that obviously comes with previous, & still present constan resentement of an entire nation.[0_0]

      -Besides, that information was also implemented using documents from the point of view of the "Septim Empire", not people of "Hammerfell", &.. again.., the nation of Hammerfell is not part of what is left of the Septim Empire anymore, & yet they people live, which also means that the "White-Gold Concordat" has noting to do with that, because it only affects the nations that still are under their rule.[0_0]

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote: -Besides, that information was also implemented using documents from the point of view of the Septim Empire, not people of Hammerfell.[0_0]

      I'll give you this: "Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War." -Loading Screen, Skyrim

      This is a canon statement, do with it as you wish, I won't be responding anymore.

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    • Okay, having all this text in bold is getting to be an eyesore. I'm going to ask you to stop with that from now on, Sarge TiTan.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:
      Okay, having all this text in bold is getting to be an eyesore. I'm going to ask you to stop with that from now on, Sage TiTan.

      I will directly stop responding if that if the case, the "Sage TiTan" was a nice touch, thanx(regardless of the intention). Is just my personal form of typewriter, sorry if some people do not like it, also knowing that is not against the "Terms Of Use" of WIKIA, & its "Policies", I personally apologize for the possible use of bad english, because my mother tongue is spanish.[0_0] -END-

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      Sarge TiTan wrote: -Besides, that information was also implemented using documents from the point of view of the Septim Empire, not people of Hammerfell.[0_0]

      I'll give you this:

      "Only by signing the peace treaty known as the White-Gold Concordat was the Empire able to survive the onslaught of the high elven Aldmeri Dominion, and thus end the Great War." -Loading Screen, Skyrim

      This is a canon statement, do with it as you wish, I won't be responding anymore.

      Canon: It is the material that is officially accepted as part of the story in the fictional universe of that story. However, logically, this is not the same thing as confirming that just because something exists in that universe, it can necessarily be considered as truly verifiable as such(such as the text written by someone regarding their personal point of view about an X event, or as in this case a "statement", after all anyone can lie or simply exaggerate something).

      -Then, if the statement was more of a case, like for example: "Without the Empire mankind would surely fall". Since by logic a statement becomes invalid with the presenting of a counterexample that proves it as such, which in this case would be the survival of the people of Hammerfell, something that was achieved without the Septim Empire or its Treaty, therefore it would be verifiable false as such.[0_0]

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    • Draevan13
      Draevan13 removed this reply because:
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      14:25, October 11, 2017
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    • Draevan13 wrote: I'll play devil's advocate here: loading screens can be wrong sometimes, as Bethesda is prone to errors.

      Example: one of Oblivion's loading screens claims that Uriel Septim VII is "a direct descendant of Tiber Septim". This is false, as Tiber's grandson died without heirs and the throne passed to Tiber's niece Kintyra. Ergo, all Septims thereafter are descended from Tiber's brother Agnorinth, not Tiber himself.

      What I think the loading screen in question means is that the war would have continued and further weakened the Empire had Mede not accepted the Concordat, and that Bethesda poorly worded it (I believe neither the Dominion nor the Empire was in any state to continue the war after the Battle of the Red Ring, as the Dominion sued for peace with Hammerfell rather than conquer it). That, or the people who wrote that loading screen weren't aware of what the people who wrote the "Great War" book had stated and didn't realise that the two were contradicting each other.

      "When Cassynder assumed the throne upon the death of his mother, he was already middle-aged. Only half Elven, he aged like a Breton. In fact, he had left the rule of Wayrest to his half-brother Uriel due to poor health. Nevertheless, as the only true blood relation of Pelagius and thus Tiber, he was pressed into accepting the throne. To no one's surprise, the Emperor Cassynder's reign did not last long. In two years he joined his predecessors in eternal slumber." -Brief History of the Empire, Book II

      The series talks against itself. It's not impossible for the loading screen to be false.


      The Great War and the Loading Screen don't contradict. There's dialogue with both the Thalmor members and the Legion members which quite directly state which side would have lost had the war continued.

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    • Sarge TiTan wrote:

      Canon: It is the material that is officially accepted as part of the story in the fictional universe of that story. However, logically, this is not the same thing as confirming that just because something exists in that universe, it can necessarily be considered as truly verifiable as such(such as the text written by someone regarding their personal point of view about an X event, or as in this case a "statement", after all anyone can lie or simply exaggerate something).

      -Then, if the statement was more of a case, like for example: "Without the Empire mankind would surely fall". Since by logic a statement becomes invalid with the presenting of a counterexample that proves it as such, which in this case would be the survival of the people of Hammerfell, something that was achieved without the Septim Empire or its Treaty, therefore it would be verifiable false as such.[0_0]


      If Hammerfell were a shiny example that the WGC wasn't necessary, the Empire wold have won the Great War in the first place. Below, I've compiled a list of reasons as to why the Redguards were able to survive the Dominion.


      1. The Battle of Skaven severely weakened the Dominion presence in the area.
      2. The Imperial veterans that General Decianus left behind when he marched for the Battle of the Red Ring were INSTRUMENTAL in the Redguard's fight against the Dominion.
      3. The harsh, inhospitable climate of Hammerfell as well as the unique fighting style of the Redguards allowed them to beat back the already severely weakened Dominion force.
      4. Although Valenwood, Elsweyr, and the Summerset Isles were virtually untouched by fighting, and perfectly capable of sustaining further campaigns with men and supplies, these provinces don't border Hammerfell.  The only way the Dominion could supply their forces was at sea. Half of the Dominion army was destroyed at the Imperial City. The other half was trapped between Cyrodill and the Redguard controlled desert as Lady Arannelya was considering aiding Lord Naarfin within Cyrodill when the treaty was signed.
      5. The Dominion made a mistake of trying to take two places at the same time, if they still make the mistake again I say they can go screw themselves. Though considering how cunning they have been so far, I find it hard to believe they will fall for the same trap again.


      To top it all off, more than 20 years after the Great War, Hammerfell is still impoverished and rebuilding everything. They might have won their independence from the Dominion, but it severely screwed them economically and politically.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      There's dialogue with both the Thalmor members and the Legion members which quite directly state which side would have lost had the war continued.

      I've heard that dialogue, but I'd take anything the Thalmor say about their chances of victory after the Red Ring with a grain of salt. They'd say they would have won no matter what, even if their army had been whittled down to one guy with a rock vs a whole Legion :P

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    • Draevan13 wrote:

      Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      There's dialogue with both the Thalmor members and the Legion members which quite directly state which side would have lost had the war continued.

      I've heard that dialogue, but I'd take anything the Thalmor say about their chances of victory after the Red Ring with a grain of salt. They'd say they would have won no matter what, even if their army had been whittled down to one guy with a rock vs a whole Legion :P

      Elven supremacy is the only truth! xD

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