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  • Continuation of this thread: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:310516

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    • Depending on the events of any of the DLCs, the Canon ending may not be so.

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    • Scout Trooper 164 wrote: Depending on the events of any of the DLCs, the Canon ending may not be so.

      Wut?

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    • The canon ending will be some disappointed, vague situation, such as that the war ended for a time, but every leader is dead.

      Also, I'm sure they'll make Titus Mede's assassination canon as well.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote: The canon ending will be some disappointed, vague situation, such as that the war ended for a time, but every leader is dead.

      Also, I'm sure they'll make Titus Mede's assassination canon as well.

      I think his death will be, not the assassination. The Titus Mede as we see him in Skyrim already appears to be old (he already seemed old during the GW) he'd die of old age anytime soon.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote: The canon ending will be some disappointed, vague situation, such as that the war ended for a time, but every leader is dead.

      Also, I'm sure they'll make Titus Mede's assassination canon as well.

      Ulfric dies, Tullius dies, Titus Mede II dies, everybody dies...  ;)

      Seriously though, I would not be surprised if they didn't have the Moot happen in-game for a reason. Maybe the Thalmor choose that as their opening salvo of the second Great War.

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    • WhenDovCry wrote:

      Seriously though, I would not be surprised if they didn't have the Moot happen in-game for a reason. Maybe the Thalmor choose that as their opening salvo of the second Great War.

      New Emperor: Hey, the Thalmor are invading Cyrodiil, want to team up? The White-Gold Concordat is void now so we can worship Talos again.

      Ulfric: Sure!

      New Emperor: And we can kill Thalmor again.

      Hammerfell ruler: Count me in!

      -Jolly cooperation!-

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    • Draevan13 wrote: New Emperor: Hey, the Thalmor are invading Cyrodiil, want to team up? The White-Gold Concordat is void now so we can worship Talos again.

      Ulfric: Sure!

      New Emperor: And we can kill Thalmor again.

      Hammerfell ruler: Count me in!

      -Jolly cooperation!-

      Ha! Good one! Like that'll ever happen. Ulfric is too stubborn to do such a thing. The Empire will be a little sore over rejoining the man who rebelled against them. As for Hammerfell, they're a loose cannon.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:

      Draevan13 wrote: New Emperor: Hey, the Thalmor are invading Cyrodiil, want to team up? The White-Gold Concordat is void now so we can worship Talos again.

      Ulfric: Sure!

      New Emperor: And we can kill Thalmor again.

      Hammerfell ruler: Count me in!

      -Jolly cooperation!-

      Ha! Good one! Like that'll ever happen. Ulfric is too stubborn to do such a thing. The Empire will be a little sore over rejoining the man who rebelled against them. As for Hammerfell, they're a loose cannon.

      Ulfric's a big question mark, but the Redguards know that the only chance to defeat the Dominion is with the Empire, if they don't aid it, they too know that they'll be doomed.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:

      Draevan13 wrote: New Emperor: Hey, the Thalmor are invading Cyrodiil, want to team up? The White-Gold Concordat is void now so we can worship Talos again.

      Ulfric: Sure!

      New Emperor: And we can kill Thalmor again.

      Hammerfell ruler: Count me in!

      -Jolly cooperation!-

      Ha! Good one! Like that'll ever happen. Ulfric is too stubborn to do such a thing. The Empire will be a little sore over rejoining the man who rebelled against them. As for Hammerfell, they're a loose cannon.

      I don't think Ulfric will mind pausing the rebellion if it means fighting the Dominion. He does agree to a ceasefire with the Empire for fighting Alduin, so he's not unreasonable.  Reintegrating with the Empire? That's another matter, but fighting the Dominion would be in his best interest. Same thing for Hammerfell.

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    • No? The White-Gold Concordat ceded large portions of southern Hammerfell to the Thalmor, after which the Redguards continued to fight them for five more years to a standstill, resulting in the Thalmor leaving Hammerfell. The bitterness the Redguards continue to harbor for the Empire for abandoning it is the entire reason it's not in the Empire, and it's unlikely that they would aid the Empire, they would probably leave it to fend for itself, as retribution for abandoning it during the Great War. Would they aid Ulfric Stormcloak in a war with the Thalmor? That's a bigger question. I assume they would due to mutual hatreds of both the Empire and the Thalmor.

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    • The only chance of an alliance is at the literal brink of destruction. They hate each other enough for that to be a reasonable outcome. In fact, The Empire might just let the Dominion attack the other providences without getting involved for a while, just so they can build a large enough army to at least make an attempt, or when another providence asks for aid.

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    • Ottoman Hold wrote:
      The only chance of an alliance is at the literal brink of destruction. They hate each other enough for that to be a reasonable outcome. In fact, The Empire might just let the Dominion attack the other providences without getting involved for a while, just so they can build a large enough army to at least make an attempt, or when another providence asks for aid.

      I really think it'll come down to the rulers: Ulfric, the new Emperor, and whoever's ruling in Hammerfell. Ulfric I honestly believe will fight alongside the Empire against the Thalmor, and if the new Emperor and Hammerfell ruler are smart enough they'll see the benefits in the human provinces uniting to stop the Dominion. 

      Though I doubt the Empire will peacefully reform for some time, if ever. A military alliance at most.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: No? The White-Gold Concordat ceded large portions of southern Hammerfell to the Thalmor, after which the Redguards continued to fight them for five more years to a standstill, resulting in the Thalmor leaving Hammerfell. The bitterness the Redguards continue to harbor for the Empire for abandoning it is the entire reason it's not in the Empire, and it's unlikely that they would aid the Empire, they would probably leave it to fend for itself, as retribution for abandoning it during the Great War. Would they aid Ulfric Stormcloak in a war with the Thalmor? That's a bigger question. I assume they would due to mutual hatreds of both the Empire and the Thalmor.

      Unless if you see the Redguards as some kids with no tactical insight whatsoever, you should know that Hammerfell would never do such a thing. They know why the Empire signed the WGC, they disagree with it, but when the WGC is gone and the Empire is fighting again, they have no reason to keep the Empire on its own, since if the Dominion conqeurs the Empire, Hammerfell would only follow in its footsteps afterwards.

      And forget the whole aid for a Stormcloak Skyrim, Hammerfell would lose trade with all of its other trade partners, not to forget that the Nords hold Dragonstar and Elinhir, that Ulfric's army didn't come to the Redguards' aid when they needed it and that In My Time of Need isn't really making progress.

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    • Ottoman Hold
      Ottoman Hold removed this reply because:
      This is pointlessly off topic and its trying to stop an active and intelligent discussion.
      20:55, January 30, 2017
      This reply has been removed
    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      The Z Boss wrote: No? The White-Gold Concordat ceded large portions of southern Hammerfell to the Thalmor, after which the Redguards continued to fight them for five more years to a standstill, resulting in the Thalmor leaving Hammerfell. The bitterness the Redguards continue to harbor for the Empire for abandoning it is the entire reason it's not in the Empire, and it's unlikely that they would aid the Empire, they would probably leave it to fend for itself, as retribution for abandoning it during the Great War. Would they aid Ulfric Stormcloak in a war with the Thalmor? That's a bigger question. I assume they would due to mutual hatreds of both the Empire and the Thalmor.

      Unless if you see the Redguards as some kids with no tactical insight whatsoever, you should know that Hammerfell would never do such a thing. They know why the Empire signed the WGC, they disagree with it, but when the WGC is gone and the Empire is fighting again, they have no reason to keep the Empire on its own, since if the Dominion conqeurs the Empire, Hammerfell would only follow in its footsteps afterwards.

      And forget the whole aid for a Stormcloak Skyrim, Hammerfell would lose trade with all of its other trade partners, not to forget that the Nords hold Dragonstar and Elinhir, that Ulfric's army didn't come to the Redguards' aid when they needed it and that In My Time of Need isn't really making progress.

      I don't think the Nords hold Dragonstar and Elinhir. Hammerfell reclaimed them from Skyrim.

      They know why the Emperor signed the White-Gold Concordant, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the Emperor still handed over the southern portion of their country to protect his own. When Hammerfell refused to comply, the Empire renounced them as a province, which the Redguards saw as being stabbed in the back. It's extremely doubtful they would be willing to trust the Empire enough to fight alongside them - not when the Emperor's already proven he sees their country as expendable.

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    • That is the point I was trying to make, and Hamerfell can hold their own against the Thalmor. As stated before, they did it for five years, even after they had fought the Thalmor during the original Great War. And the Thalmor, if they conquer the entire Empire (Cyrodiil and High Rock), would be way too spent to be able to fight against the Redguards, the finest warriors of Tamriel, who also happen to be surpassed only by the Argonians in guerilla warfare.

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    • WhenDovCry wrote: I don't think the Nords hold Dragonstar and Elinhir. Hammerfell reclaimed them from Skyrim.

      They know why the Emperor signed the White-Gold Concordant, yes, but that doesn't change the fact that the Emperor still handed over the southern portion of their country to protect his own. When Hammerfell refused to comply, the Empire renounced them as a province, which the Redguards saw as being stabbed in the back. It's extremely doubtful they would be willing to trust the Empire enough to fight alongside them - not when the Emperor's already proven he sees their country as expendable.

      Prove it, prove that the Nords lost those cities again.

      A southern portion which was already largely conqeured by the Dominion. And the Redguards were the ones who were the true backstabbers, not the Empire. And aside from that, the Redguards acknowledge that the Empire is needed to defeat the Dominion, why would they, by any logical means, not aid the Empire if they themselves claim that the Empire is needed?

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    • The Z Boss wrote: That is the point I was trying to make, and Hamerfell can hold their own against the Thalmor. As stated before, they did it for five years, even after they had fought the Thalmor during the original Great War. And the Thalmor, if they conquer the entire Empire (Cyrodiil and High Rock), would be way too spent to be able to fight against the Redguards, the finest warriors of Tamriel, who also happen to be surpassed only by the Argonians in guerilla warfare.

      The Redguards didn't win, the Dominion could've slaughtered the Empire during the GW if they so desired, they left Hammerfell willingly. Under most circumstances the Redguards got utterly destroyed when they were invaded.

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    • The Redguards did win, as they forced the Thalmor to withdraw, I don't know why you're saying they left willingly. They tried to hold southern Hammerfell for five years. They couldn't have slaughtered the Empire's army either, all of their forces in Cyrodiil were wiped out in the Battle of the Red Ring. The only reason why the Redguards were defeated by Tiber Septim was because Septim had a dragon, Nafaalilargus, and the only reason why the Thalmor were able to take control of southern Hammerfell was because the Redguards were politically divided between the Crowns and the Forebears until a Forebear force arrived from Sentinel and broke the siege of the Crown city Hegathe, which reconciled the two factions. As for who the backstabbers were, it was most certainly the Empire, they crushed the Thalmor army in Cyrodiil but ultimately accepted the demands they made at the start of the war, and renounced Hammerfell as a province due to it's objections, and did absolutely nothing to help them as they beat the Thalmor. Redguards are still bitter with the Empire for abandoning them, not the other way around. And who is the Redguard that claims that the Empire is needed to defeat the Thalmor? I've certainly never seen them during my many playthroughs of Skyrim, and I've never seen it anywhere in the lore. 

      The fact that you deny that the Redguards are the finest warriors on Tamriel when it is stated throughout lore and the games that they are, makes me wonder if you lore or even play the games, and are not just arguing for the sake of arguing.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: The Redguards did win, as they forced the Thalmor to withdraw, I don't know why you're saying they left willingly. They tried to hold southern Hammerfell for five years. They couldn't have slaughtered the Empire's army either, all of their forces in Cyrodiil were wiped out in the Battle of the Red Ring. The only reason why the Redguards were defeated by Tiber Septim was because Septim had a dragon, Nafaalilargus, and the only reason why the Thalmor were able to take control of southern Hammerfell was because the Redguards were politically divided between the Crowns and the Forebears until a Forebear force arrived from Sentinel and broke the siege of the Crown city Hegathe, which reconciled the two factions. As for who the backstabbers were, it was most certainly the Empire, they crushed the Thalmor army in Cyrodiil but ultimately accepted the demands they made at the start of the war, and renounced Hammerfell as a province due to it's objections, and did absolutely nothing to help them as they beat the Thalmor. Redguards are still bitter with the Empire for abandoning them, not the other way around. And who is the Redguard that claims that the Empire is needed to defeat the Thalmor? I've certainly never seen them during my many playthroughs of Skyrim, and I've never seen it anywhere in the lore. 

      The fact that you deny that the Redguards are the finest warriors on Tamriel when it is stated throughout lore and the games that they are, makes me wonder if you lore or even play the games, and are not just arguing for the sake of arguing.

      They didn't force them to withdraw, the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai and the Dominion withdrawing are recorded as seperate events. And yes they could've slaughtered the Empire, go to the Loading Screens (Skyrim) page and search for the quote as to how the Only way for the Empire to survive the Aldmeri onslaught was the White-Gold Concordat.

      And no, the Redguards were terribly weak against Septim, with the Battle of Hunding Bay being the only battle in which the Crown forces matched the might of the Empire, Hammerfell is weak.

      The Empire didn't backstab Hammerfell, for the Empire owned Hammerfell, it was Imperial land, the Empire had the right to say what to do with it. Oh, and the Empire did help them, did you miss General Decianus leaving behind Imperial invalids?

      I suggest reading The Great War (Book), it's specifically stated there.

      Maybe as individuals, but not as an army.

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    • 1. The Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai was the reason for their withdrawal, it says so in the book. In the same book, it is stated that, as the Redguards put it, the Thalmor would have been defeated with the combined might of Hammerfell and the Empire.

      2. The main reason for their weakness was because of political divisions between the Crown and Forebear factions. Now that the factions have reconciled in the wake of the Great War, Hammerfell is stronger than ever.

      3. The fact that the Empire owned Hammerfell is precisely the reason why it was such a betrayal. The Empire has a duty to protect it's citizens, not hand them and their territory over to it's enemies when it feels like it's necessary. And General Decianus leaving Imperial "invalids" behind was during the time of the Great War. When Hammerfell continued the fight against the Aldmeri Dominon, with the possible exception of some the invalids remaining behind, the Empire didn't do a damn thing.

      4. The Redguards never said that the combination of Hammerfell and the Empire is needed to defeat the Thalmor, that was stated by the book's author, who is an Imperial. 

      5. While it is stated in the book that the victory of Hammerfell over Dominion forces was only possible with the Empire's victory in the Battle of the Red Ring, you need to keep in mind that Hammerfell had been fighting them the entire time as well, against the forces of Lady Arannelya.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 1. The Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai was the reason for their withdrawal, it says so in the book. In the same book, it is stated that, as the Redguards put it, the Thalmor would have been defeated with the combined might of Hammerfell and the Empire.

      2. The main reason for their weakness was because of political divisions between the Crown and Forebear factions. Now that the factions have reconciled in the wake of the Great War, Hammerfell is stronger than ever.

      3. The fact that the Empire owned Hammerfell is precisely the reason why it was such a betrayal. The Empire has a duty to protect it's citizens, not hand them and their territory over to it's enemies when it feels like it's necessary. And General Decianus leaving Imperial "invalids" behind was during the time of the Great War. When Hammerfell continued the fight against the Aldmeri Dominon, with the possible exception of some the invalids remaining behind, the Empire didn't do a damn thing.

      4. The Redguards never said that the combination of Hammerfell and the Empire is needed to defeat the Thalmor, that was stated by the book's author, who is an Imperial. 

      5. While it is stated in the book that the victory of Hammerfell over Dominion forces was only possible with the Empire's victory in the Battle of the Red Ring, you need to keep in mind that Hammerfell had been fighting them the entire time as well, against the forces of Lady Arannelya.

      1. The book records them as seperate events, specifically by saying AND instead of which resulted into when it spoke of the Dominion retreating from Hammerfell, it was unrelated. And that's just the Redguards' pov, which proves my point to them acknowledging that the Empire is needed.

      2. No it isn't, its southern coastline is ravaged and cities are destroyed. The Redguards have never been strong, except for when the7 came as the Ra Gada.

      3. No, you can't betray that which you own. If you seek to give away your land, you have every right to do so. Decianus is an Imperial General, Imperial General = Behavior on behalf of the Empire. By your logic the Empire isn't anything, and by that same logic the Empire can't do anything, making your argument fall apart.

      4. Oh right, I guess by that same logic nothing in The Great War is true. I suppose that the Great War is just a fable that there never was an invasion of Hammerfell and that the Emperor just felt like giving the Dominion everything they wanted. Use your brain, just because it's a book written by an Imperial doesn't mean it's invalid.

      5. And they were very unsuccesful.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      The Z Boss wrote: 3. The fact that the Empire owned Hammerfell is precisely the reason why it was such a betrayal. The Empire has a duty to protect it's citizens, not hand them and their territory over to it's enemies when it feels like it's necessary. And General Decianus leaving Imperial "invalids" behind was during the time of the Great War. When Hammerfell continued the fight against the Aldmeri Dominon, with the possible exception of some the invalids remaining behind, the Empire didn't do a damn thing.

      3. No, you can't betray that which you own. If you seek to give away your land, you have every right to do so. Decianus is an Imperial General, Imperial General = Behavior on behalf of the Empire. By your logic the Empire isn't anything, and by that same logic the Empire can't do anything, making your argument fall apart.

      "In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors." - Legate Justianus Quintius, The Great War

      So General Decianus defied orders in leaving those Imperials behind. Yes, those same Imperials were instrumental in forcing the AD forces back, but the Empire never approved it. If the general had followed orders, those soldiers would have been recalled to Cyrodiil and the Alik'r forces would have been on their own.

      The book also states that the Redguards saw the cessation of their lands as a betrayal, even if the Aldmeri still occupied them, and comments on the "lasting bitterness" between the Empire and Hammerfell. Based on that, it's unlikely that Hammerfell would agree to join forces with the Empire. They can't form an alliance with someone they don't trust.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      WhenDovCry wrote: I don't think the Nords hold Dragonstar and Elinhir. Hammerfell reclaimed them from Skyrim.

      Prove it, prove that the Nords lost those cities again.

      Those cities were taken during the War of Bend'r-Mahk as Skyrim territory. In the game, those cities are not shown as part of Skyrim, and Marise Aravel in Riften mentions Elinhir as being just over the border in Hammerfell. Thus, my conclusion that the Nords no longer control those cities.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre and The Z Boss: We seem to be off-topic here with our debate, since we're talking more about the Great War(s) instead of the Skyrim civil war. If there is another thread that fits this "Would Hammerfell join forces with the Empire?" debate a bit better, I'm more than happy to continue discussing it there.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      The Z Boss wrote: 1. The Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai was the reason for their withdrawal, it says so in the book. In the same book, it is stated that, as the Redguards put it, the Thalmor would have been defeated with the combined might of Hammerfell and the Empire.

      2. The main reason for their weakness was because of political divisions between the Crown and Forebear factions. Now that the factions have reconciled in the wake of the Great War, Hammerfell is stronger than ever.

      3. The fact that the Empire owned Hammerfell is precisely the reason why it was such a betrayal. The Empire has a duty to protect it's citizens, not hand them and their territory over to it's enemies when it feels like it's necessary. And General Decianus leaving Imperial "invalids" behind was during the time of the Great War. When Hammerfell continued the fight against the Aldmeri Dominon, with the possible exception of some the invalids remaining behind, the Empire didn't do a damn thing.

      4. The Redguards never said that the combination of Hammerfell and the Empire is needed to defeat the Thalmor, that was stated by the book's author, who is an Imperial. 

      5. While it is stated in the book that the victory of Hammerfell over Dominion forces was only possible with the Empire's victory in the Battle of the Red Ring, you need to keep in mind that Hammerfell had been fighting them the entire time as well, against the forces of Lady Arannelya.

      1. The book records them as seperate events, specifically by saying AND instead of which resulted into when it spoke of the Dominion retreating from Hammerfell, it was unrelated. And that's just the Redguards' pov, which proves my point to them acknowledging that the Empire is needed.

      2. No it isn't, its southern coastline is ravaged and cities are destroyed. The Redguards have never been strong, except for when the7 came as the Ra Gada.

      3. No, you can't betray that which you own. If you seek to give away your land, you have every right to do so. Decianus is an Imperial General, Imperial General = Behavior on behalf of the Empire. By your logic the Empire isn't anything, and by that same logic the Empire can't do anything, making your argument fall apart.

      4. Oh right, I guess by that same logic nothing in The Great War is true. I suppose that the Great War is just a fable that there never was an invasion of Hammerfell and that the Emperor just felt like giving the Dominion everything they wanted. Use your brain, just because it's a book written by an Imperial doesn't mean it's invalid.

      5. And they were very unsuccesful.

      1. The book doesn't specifically say they were separate and unrelated events, you're simply using the vague language to support your argument, which has no basis in fact. And, no they don't acknowledge that the Empire is needed, they simply stated that signing the Concordat was pointless.

      2. It's been over 20 years since the Thalmor left Hammerfell, what makes you so certain they haven't been able to rebuild in that time, especially since the Crowns and Forebears have reconciled? When united, the Redguards are a force to be reckoned with. If you think they were never strong, then you need to be reminded that they were the ones who defeated the Camoran Usurper, without the Empire. 

      3. The whole point of the Empire is to protect it's provinces and citizens, and by simply handing them over to the Thalmor, they betrayed their purpose. General Decianus was disobeying orders when he left the invalids in Hammerfell, hence "invalids." And even if the invalids stayed and fought with the Redguards during their five-year resistance, it was due to their own choice in staying there, not on behalf of the Empire.

      4. I never said that I doubted the author's credibility, I was disproving your argument that the Redguards specifically stated in the book that they could only defeat the Thalmor if they were in league with the Empire. They never did, it was stated by the author, who is an Imperial, therefore never have the Redguards stated that they needed the Empire.

      5. I will restate for the sixth time that the Crown and Forebear infighting had severely weakened the Redguards, so they did indeed offer scattered resistance to the Thalmor in the first phase of the war. However, this did not last throughout the war. Hegathe successfully held out against the Thalmor invasion, and it's siege was successfuly broken by the Redguards. Then, the fighting at Skaven had weakened the Thalmor to the point that they could not continue onward. Then, the Redguards drove them back across the Alik'r Desert, and Alik'r warrior guerilla attacks would weaken them further, illustrating my earlier point that the Redguards are outmatched only by the Argonians in guerilla warfare.

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    • WhenDovCry wrote:
      Blademaster Jauffre and The Z Boss: We seem to be off-topic here with our debate, since we're talking more about the Great War(s) instead of the Skyrim civil war. If there is another thread that fits this "Would Hammerfell join forces with the Empire?" debate a bit better, I'm more than happy to continue discussing it there.

      I feel we should continue the discussion here, as it would be quite confusing to move all of our disagreements to another thread.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 1. The book doesn't specifically say they were separate and unrelated events, you're simply using the vague language to support your argument, which has no basis in fact. And, no they don't acknowledge that the Empire is needed, they simply stated that signing the Concordat was pointless.

      2. It's been over 20 years since the Thalmor left Hammerfell, what makes you so certain they haven't been able to rebuild in that time, especially since the Crowns and Forebears have reconciled? When united, the Redguards are a force to be reckoned with. If you think they were never strong, then you need to be reminded that they were the ones who defeated the Camoran Usurper, without the Empire. 

      3. The whole point of the Empire is to protect it's provinces and citizens, and by simply handing them over to the Thalmor, they betrayed their purpose. General Decianus was disobeying orders when he left the invalids in Hammerfell, hence "invalids." And even if the invalids stayed and fought with the Redguards during their five-year resistance, it was due to their own choice in staying there, not on behalf of the Empire.

      4. I never said that I doubted the author's credibility, I was disproving your argument that the Redguards specifically stated in the book that they could only defeat the Thalmor if they were in league with the Empire. They never did, it was stated by the author, who is an Imperial, therefore never have the Redguards stated that they needed the Empire.

      5. I will restate for the sixth time that the Crown and Forebear infighting had severely weakened the Redguards, so they did indeed offer scattered resistance to the Thalmor in the first phase of the war. However, this did not last throughout the war. Hegathe successfully held out against the Thalmor invasion, and it's siege was successfuly broken by the Redguards. Then, the fighting at Skaven had weakened the Thalmor to the point that they could not continue onward. Then, the Redguards drove them back across the Alik'r Desert, and Alik'r warrior guerilla attacks would weaken them further, illustrating my earlier point that the Redguards are outmatched only by the Argonians in guerilla warfare.

      1. Except that it does. It says and, no matter how you try to twist and turn it, they are seperate events. Are they unrelated? Probably not, but the Treaty of Stros M'Kai didn't force them out. And yes they do, notice how they claim that the Dominion could've been defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the Empire? They acknowledge it.

      2. Because their land was ravaged by war and they only held one city throughout the entire war. Unless if you're trying to claim that the Dominion is ignorant to any kind of tactics, you'd know that the territory the Dominion held, would be raided. They defeated the Camoran usurper? HA, what a joke! The Camoran Usurper conqeured Hammerfell, during his time the Crowns and Forebears weren't united either, it were the people of High Rock who did so, read The Fall of the Usurper.

      3. If they didn't do so their people would get conqeured by the Thalmor, which means there's not even a chance to fight back later on. Nowhere is it stated that Decianus disobeyed orders, nowhere is it stated that he had to take all of his forces with him, not to forget, you claiming they stayed on their own accord is unsourced and therefor, invalid.

      4. The book is a recording of what happened in the war, it's not some kind of propaganda piece, you can't just say it's unreliable without giving valid reasons to claim so. If it'd be propaganda, the same book wouldn't say that the Empire needs Hammerfell now would it?

      5. And? One victory amongst let's see, ah yes, 4 defeats, very impressive.... And Skaven was regained thanks to the Imperial Veterans who formed the core of the Alik'r army. The Redguards are good individuals, but a bad army. Again, look at Tiber Septim's invasion of Hammerfell, if the Redguards are as strong as you make them out to be, why was the only time they matched the might of the Empire at Stros M'kai? Why did they get utterly slaughtered during Tiber's conquest of the rest of the province?

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    • 1. Fair enough. While you claim that they did not win, they certainly didn't lose, it is directly stated that it was a stalemate, which resulted in the Second Treaty of Stors M'Kai and the withdrawal of the Thalmor. Therefore, they were victorious in the long term.

      2. Obivously the conquered areas would be raided, but I seriously doubt that the Redguards didn't accomplish anything in the way of reconstruction. My statement about the Redguards defeating the Camoran Usurper was due to a misunderstanding on my part, however, you said yourself that the Crowns and Forebears weren't united, and that he conquered them. As I've stated before, and which you seem to misunderstand, is that the Redguards' military defeats in the past is not due to their weakness, but due to them being divided against each other to the point that they can't pull themselves together to fight the enemy. 

      3. Well, as you said before, the combined might of the Redguards and the Empire would have crushed the Thalmor, so there was no reason to simply give up and accede to their demands. Try as you might, the Empire was the traitor, and you acknowledged it, therefore you just played yourself. "In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east." Seeing as he had to have his troops labelled as invalids for them to remain behind, it's fairly reasonable to assume that he was ordered to bring all of his troops with him. Never did I specifically state that the invalids stayed in Hammerfell on their own accord, I stated that it was a possibility which, if true, is the closest that the Empire came to helping Hammerfell. As you said, this is invalid, proving my point that the Empire didn't do anything to help the Redguards during their resistance. 

      4. I am not stating that the author is unreliable or writing propaganda, I explained this already in my last post.

      5. As I've stated about six times already, and as I've stated above in this post, the military defeats that the Redguards have faced is not due to their inefficiancies as an army, but due to constant civil war between the Crowns and the Forebears, that is the only reason for their 3 defeats in the early stages of the war (Skaven was indeed a tactical victory for the Thalmor, although it was also a strategic victory for the Redguards as the Thalmor had lost too many to continue their advance.) As for Tiber Septim's conquest of Hammerfell, again, they were too divided amongst themselves to put up any resistance. And Tiber Septim had the dragon Nafaalilargus. Note how the dragon had been killed by Cyrus before the Second Battle of Stros M'Kai, which is when they matched the might of the Empire. That's how they got slaughtered.  

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 1. Fair enough. While you claim that they did not win, they certainly didn't lose, it is directly stated that it was a stalemate, which resulted in the Second Treaty of Stors M'Kai and the withdrawal of the Thalmor. Therefore, they were victorious in the long term.

      2. Obivously the conquered areas would be raided, but I seriously doubt that the Redguards didn't accomplish anything in the way of reconstruction. My statement about the Redguards defeating the Camoran Usurper was due to a misunderstanding on my part, however, you said yourself that the Crowns and Forebears weren't united, and that he conquered them. As I've stated before, and which you seem to misunderstand, is that the Redguards' military defeats in the past is not due to their weakness, but due to them being divided against each other to the point that they can't pull themselves together to fight the enemy. 

      3. Well, as you said before, the combined might of the Redguards and the Empire would have crushed the Thalmor, so there was no reason to simply give up and accede to their demands. Try as you might, the Empire was the traitor, and you acknowledged it, therefore you just played yourself. "In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east." Seeing as he had to have his troops labelled as invalids for them to remain behind, it's fairly reasonable to assume that he was ordered to bring all of his troops with him. Never did I specifically state that the invalids stayed in Hammerfell on their own accord, I stated that it was a possibility which, if true, is the closest that the Empire came to helping Hammerfell. As you said, this is invalid, proving my point that the Empire didn't do anything to help the Redguards during their resistance. 

      4. I am not stating that the author is unreliable or writing propaganda, I explained this already in my last post.

      5. As I've stated about six times already, and as I've stated above in this post, the military defeats that the Redguards have faced is not due to their inefficiancies as an army, but due to constant civil war between the Crowns and the Forebears, that is the only reason for their 3 defeats in the early stages of the war (Skaven was indeed a tactical victory for the Thalmor, although it was also a strategic victory for the Redguards as the Thalmor had lost too many to continue their advance.) As for Tiber Septim's conquest of Hammerfell, again, they were too divided amongst themselves to put up any resistance. And Tiber Septim had the dragon Nafaalilargus. Note how the dragon had been killed by Cyrus before the Second Battle of Stros M'Kai, which is when they matched the might of the Empire. That's how they got slaughtered.  

      1. The Dominion was victorious in the long term, yes, for they achieved their goal of creating a bitter hatred between Hammerfell and the Empire.

      2. Good luck trying to rebuild your land when you have to do so with the resources from one city, and the limited resources from another one. Hammerfell's in a crisis from a logical pov. If you need a combined force of two militaries to be even considerable for the enemy, you're still an insanely weak army as it is.

      3. I never said that, I said that that's what the Redguards think. The Empire wasn't a traitor, for you can't betray that which you own, the Empire never made any promises which said that Hammerfell would never have to give up land. General Decianus' action is on behalf of the Empire, the Empire itself makes no descicions, it's key figures do, General Decianus being amongst them.

      4. Then what is the point in repeating that He's an Imperial?

      5. Doesn't matter, if you need two combined armies to even be a considerable force you're weak. It's just the way it is, weak + weak = considerable. The Redguards are weak, this is just a simple fact. You're overestimating the Redguard by a lot, wether united or not, if they are as strong as you make them out to be, they'd at least be able to put up considerable resistance to either the Dominion or Tiber Septim. The "second battle of Stros M'Kai" wasn't even a battle, causing a Dwemer airship with legion soldiers on it to crash isn't a battle.

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    • Blademaster Jauffre wrote:

      The Z Boss wrote: 1. Fair enough. While you claim that they did not win, they certainly didn't lose, it is directly stated that it was a stalemate, which resulted in the Second Treaty of Stors M'Kai and the withdrawal of the Thalmor. Therefore, they were victorious in the long term.

      2. Obivously the conquered areas would be raided, but I seriously doubt that the Redguards didn't accomplish anything in the way of reconstruction. My statement about the Redguards defeating the Camoran Usurper was due to a misunderstanding on my part, however, you said yourself that the Crowns and Forebears weren't united, and that he conquered them. As I've stated before, and which you seem to misunderstand, is that the Redguards' military defeats in the past is not due to their weakness, but due to them being divided against each other to the point that they can't pull themselves together to fight the enemy. 

      3. Well, as you said before, the combined might of the Redguards and the Empire would have crushed the Thalmor, so there was no reason to simply give up and accede to their demands. Try as you might, the Empire was the traitor, and you acknowledged it, therefore you just played yourself. "In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east." Seeing as he had to have his troops labelled as invalids for them to remain behind, it's fairly reasonable to assume that he was ordered to bring all of his troops with him. Never did I specifically state that the invalids stayed in Hammerfell on their own accord, I stated that it was a possibility which, if true, is the closest that the Empire came to helping Hammerfell. As you said, this is invalid, proving my point that the Empire didn't do anything to help the Redguards during their resistance. 

      4. I am not stating that the author is unreliable or writing propaganda, I explained this already in my last post.

      5. As I've stated about six times already, and as I've stated above in this post, the military defeats that the Redguards have faced is not due to their inefficiancies as an army, but due to constant civil war between the Crowns and the Forebears, that is the only reason for their 3 defeats in the early stages of the war (Skaven was indeed a tactical victory for the Thalmor, although it was also a strategic victory for the Redguards as the Thalmor had lost too many to continue their advance.) As for Tiber Septim's conquest of Hammerfell, again, they were too divided amongst themselves to put up any resistance. And Tiber Septim had the dragon Nafaalilargus. Note how the dragon had been killed by Cyrus before the Second Battle of Stros M'Kai, which is when they matched the might of the Empire. That's how they got slaughtered.  

      1. The Dominion was victorious in the long term, yes, for they achieved their goal of creating a bitter hatred between Hammerfell and the Empire.

      2. Good luck trying to rebuild your land when you have to do so with the resources from one city, and the limited resources from another one. Hammerfell's in a crisis from a logical pov. If you need a combined force of two militaries to be even considerable for the enemy, you're still an insanely weak army as it is.

      3. I never said that, I said that that's what the Redguards think. The Empire wasn't a traitor, for you can't betray that which you own, the Empire never made any promises which said that Hammerfell would never have to give up land. General Decianus' action is on behalf of the Empire, the Empire itself makes no descicions, it's key figures do, General Decianus being amongst them.

      4. Then what is the point in repeating that He's an Imperial?

      5. Doesn't matter, if you need two combined armies to even be a considerable force you're weak. It's just the way it is, weak + weak = considerable. The Redguards are weak, this is just a simple fact. You're overestimating the Redguard by a lot, wether united or not, if they are as strong as you make them out to be, they'd at least be able to put up considerable resistance to either the Dominion or Tiber Septim. The "second battle of Stros M'Kai" wasn't even a battle, causing a Dwemer airship with legion soldiers on it to crash isn't a battle.

      1. While the Thalmor succeeded in creating lasting bitterness, the Redguards did also succeed in regaining the land they had lost.

      2. Uh, you do realise that the Thalmor only conquered Southern Hammerfell? Northern Hammerfell was untouched. And it's been twenty years, more than enough time to rebuild, especially since the civil war is over. 

      3. Well, the Emperor has the final say, and he ordered Decianus to abandon Hammerfell. The Emperor just happens to be the ruler and overall representation of the Empire. And besides, you said yourself that there is no evidence of invalids remaining behind, therefore my argument that the Empire didn't aid Hammerfell during their resistance against the Thalmor stands.

      4. The main reason that I kept stating that he was an Imperial is because he was the one who stated that the combined might of the Empire and Hammerfell is absolutely necessary to defeat the Thalmor. I was assuming that when you said the the Redguards said that they need the Empire to defeat the Thalmor, you were referring to his statement, although he is an Imperial.

      5. Well, we've never seen a united Hammerfell until now, so it is difficult to judge their military strength. Also, they did put up considerable resistance to the Thalmor, at Hegathe, Skaven, and in the Alik'r Desert. And in the five years during which they fought the Thalmor to a standstill. While the Thalmor withdrawal and the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai were separate events, they certainly weren't unrelated, for the Thalmor to even sign a peace with the Redguards and then withdraw they would have had to be pretty weak from the fighting.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 1. While the Thalmor succeeded in creating lasting bitterness, the Redguards did also succeed in regaining the land they had lost.

      2. Uh, you do realise that the Thalmor only conquered Southern Hammerfell? Northern Hammerfell was untouched. And it's been twenty years, more than enough time to rebuild, especially since the civil war is over. 

      3. Well, the Emperor has the final say, and he ordered Decianus to abandon Hammerfell. The Emperor just happens to be the ruler and overall representation of the Empire. And besides, you said yourself that there is no evidence of invalids remaining behind, therefore my argument that the Empire didn't aid Hammerfell during their resistance against the Thalmor stands.

      4. The main reason that I kept stating that he was an Imperial is because he was the one who stated that the combined might of the Empire and Hammerfell is absolutely necessary to defeat the Thalmor. I was assuming that when you said the the Redguards said that they need the Empire to defeat the Thalmor, you were referring to his statement, although he is an Imperial.

      5. Well, we've never seen a united Hammerfell until now, so it is difficult to judge their military strength. Also, they did put up considerable resistance to the Thalmor, at Hegathe, Skaven, and in the Alik'r Desert. And in the five years during which they fought the Thalmor to a standstill. While the Thalmor withdrawal and the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai were separate events, they certainly weren't unrelated, for the Thalmor to even sign a peace with the Redguards and then withdraw they would have had to be pretty weak from the fighting.

      1. That's not a long-term victory.

      2. "Northern Hammerfell" consists of a grand total of 2 cities, Hegathe and Sentinel. Not really all that impressive. Especially since Hegathe was under siege, which means that its resources must have been used, not to forget about the resources that must have been used in the 5 years with the Dominion. Hammerfell's weak and poor.

      3. The Emperor isn't the only one who represents the Empire, so do the high-ranking Imperial officials such as General Tullius and Legate Rikke and no doubt, General Decianus.

      4. His book is pieced together from soldier's accounts. By that same logic we can say that the Redguards don't have a bitter hatred for the Empire and actually love to nibble on Titus Mede's toes because he signed the WGC. Face it, there's nothing invalidating the book and there's no reason to suspect that it's inacurrate.

      5. Except that it's not difficult at all. And no they did not. Skaven didn't put up any resistance aside from the Legion under Decianus, nor did they force them back until the Imperial invalids were left behind. Hegathe was under siege and the only reason that they won was because the Forebears came from behind. Now let's see all the defeats of the Redguards, ahh yes: Skaven, Taneth, Rihad and Gilane. And that's assuming that the islands weren't conqeured. Really, the only victory that is to be granted to the Redguards themselves is at Hegathe, which required a Forebear and Crown army to beat a part of the Aldmeri army in Hammerfell... Again, not impressive. And no, they would've seen that Hammerfell was weak, they did not seek to conqeur Hammerfell, for the Dominion works as a blitzkrieg. You don't place your forces in a wide area, but in a small one, and when you're going to invade, bam, all in nearby locations with back-up close by. They left southern Hammerfell because rebuilding cities costs a lot of money and time, which the Dominion doesn't need to worry about now.

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    • It's also worth noting that Hammerfell didn't fight the entire might of the Dominion. They only fought a smaller portion. Even them combined with The Empire's opposition wasn't the whole Dominion army.

      Let's face it: there's no possible way Hammerfell would have won against a full-force Dominion assault, whether "united" or not.

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    • 1. Well it certainly took them a damn long time to get those areas back.

      2. Very well.

      3. The Empire still didn't do anything to help the Redguards after the White-Gold Concordat was signed.

      4. I didn't say that there's anything invalid from the book. The only thing he says that isn't pieced together from accounts of the war is when he says that the Redguards and the Empire need to be united to defeat the Thalmor, that is his own conclusion. Is it wrong? No, but that exact quote was not made by the Redguards, it was stated by the author from his own understanding of things.

      5. While I will concede that Hammerfell is weak, there are some things that I need to point out. Skaven was not a defeat, it was a strategic victory as it left the Thalmor too weakened to continue their assault, and left them weak enough to be sent away from Skaven and across the Alik'r Desert with only a portion of the Imperial Army that was originally there, and the Alik'r Warriors, and let's not forget your argument that the Redguards are weak. As for Taneth, if Kematu and the other Alik'r warriors in Skyrim are to be believed, Taneth only fell because Saadia sold the city out. Also, the initial goal of the Thalmor in their war with the Empire was precisely the conquest of Hammerfell. They invaded Cyrodiil not to crush the Empire, but to distract the Empire's forces while Hammerfell was overrun. It was only after their string of victories against the Empire's forces in Cyrodiil that they decided the Empire was weaker than they had thought, and shifted the focus of the war to the dismantling of the Empire.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 1. Well it certainly took them a damn long time to get those areas back.

      3. The Empire still didn't do anything to help the Redguards after the White-Gold Concordat was signed.

      4. I didn't say that there's anything invalid from the book. The only thing he says that isn't pieced together from accounts of the war is when he says that the Redguards and the Empire need to be united to defeat the Thalmor, that is his own conclusion. Is it wrong? No, but that exact quote was not made by the Redguards, it was stated by the author from his own understanding of things.

      5. While I will concede that Hammerfell is weak, there are some things that I need to point out. Skaven was not a defeat, it was a strategic victory as it left the Thalmor too weakened to continue their assault, and left them weak enough to be sent away from Skaven and across the Alik'r Desert with only a portion of the Imperial Army that was originally there, and the Alik'r Warriors, and let's not forget your argument that the Redguards are weak. As for Taneth, if Kematu and the other Alik'r warriors in Skyrim are to be believed, Taneth only fell because Saadia sold the city out. Also, the initial goal of the Thalmor in their war with the Empire was precisely the conquest of Hammerfell. They invaded Cyrodiil not to crush the Empire, but to distract the Empire's forces while Hammerfell was overrun. It was only after their string of victories against the Empire's forces in Cyrodiil that they decided the Empire was weaker than they had thought, and shifted the focus of the war to the dismantling of the Empire.

      1. Not a long-term victory though. Long-term means that it will become noticeable after a longer period of time has passed, a short-term victory means that it's directly (or quickly) noticeable.

      3. Does it surprise you that the Empire doesn't want to declare a war with the Dominion after just signing a peace treaty with them? Of course you stop supporting a nation that's at war with the nation you just made peace with! Especially if the nation you made peace with is stronger than your combined forces!

      4. I think you're reading the wrong part of the book. Allow me to quote: "The Redguards say that this proves that the White-Gold Concordat was unnecessary, and that if Titus II had kept his nerve, the Aldmeri could have been truly defeated by the combined forces of Hammerfell and the rest of the Empire." -The Great War Now do you get what I said?

      5. Skaven did not result into that, since after they took Skaven they still besieged Hegathe. The Redguards may be weak, but the Imperials are not. Especially not when fighting in a climate that they are used to. Wether it fell because of treachery or not doesn't matter, what matters is that it fell. Their initial goal was to secure a coastline, why would that be? Ahh yes, you make the Imperial army (they thought it was stronger than it was) stretch their forces thin, so that you at least have a chance to defeat them. Turned out that the Empire was weaker than they thought, hence why they changed plans.

      Really, the Dominion want to dominate over Tamriel, their initial goal of Hammerfell was simply to weaken the Imperial forces (obviously, Cyrodiil would be better defended than Hammerfell) before invading its capital region.

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    • 1. True. Well, they achieved victory, which is the point.

      3. Well obviously they couldn't intervene directly, but they could at least supply weapons, send "volunteers", covert support. You know, what the Thalmor are doing for the Stormcloaks.

      4. I understood what you said earlier, I was simply stating what I meant when I commented that the author is an Imperial. Which isn't that the source is unreliable.

      5. If you read the book, it will tell you that the siege of Hegathe was broken before the battle of Skaven. The problem with your logic in "it doesn't matter if it was betrayed, what matters is that it fell," is that if the betrayal hadn't occurred, maybe the city wouldn't have fallen. Hegathe held out, why couldn't Taneth hold out? And what difference does it make if the coastline is captured instead of the interior regions when it comes to spreading forces thin? Hammerfell is connected to Cyrodiil and High Rock via land, therefore they have no need to send troops to Hammerfell by way of the sea.

      Another thing, you said that only Sentinel and Hegathe compose the Northern cities. This is bullshit for two reasons: one, Hegathe is a Southern city; two, Elinhir and Dragonstar are also in the North.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 3. Well obviously they couldn't intervene directly, but they could at least supply weapons, send "volunteers", covert support. You know, what the Thalmor are doing for the Stormcloaks.

      4. I understood what you said earlier, I was simply stating what I meant when I commented that the author is an Imperial. Which isn't that the source is unreliable.

      5. If you read the book, it will tell you that the siege of Hegathe was broken before the battle of Skaven. The problem with your logic in "it doesn't matter if it was betrayed, what matters is that it fell," is that if the betrayal hadn't occurred, maybe the city wouldn't have fallen. Hegathe held out, why couldn't Taneth hold out? And what difference does it make if the coastline is captured instead of the interior regions when it comes to spreading forces thin? Hammerfell is connected to Cyrodiil and High Rock via land, therefore they have no need to send troops to Hammerfell by way of the sea.

      Another thing, you said that only Sentinel and Hegathe compose the Northern cities. This is bullshit for two reasons: one, Hegathe is a Southern city; two, Elinhir and Dragonstar are also in the North.

      3. I hope you understand that the whole reason the Empire stopped the war was because they didn't have the forces or resources to keep fighting.

      4. But then why bring it up? He's an Imperial, and? He says what the Redguards told the Imperial government about that, that their combined forces "could have beaten the Dominion".

      5. Why couldn't Taneth? Because Gilane also fell. Also, Hegathe didn't hold out, a Forebear army from Sentinel aided them, it Hegathe would've lost if it didn't get aid. Because the coastline is also rich and attacking inland gives Imperial forces a chance to fight you from behind.

      Elinhir and Dragonstar are held by the Nords, not the Redguards. Those cities are part of the Kingdom of Skyrim. Hegathe is a northern city, look where it is on the map.

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    • 3. I'm sure they could have sent some people from Skyrim or High Rock, they didn't get affected by the war as much. And, the conflict between the Redguards and Dominion lasted five years. They could have mustered something up.

      4. He says that Hammerfell and the Empire need to be united to win. You said that the Redguards said this. At the time, I didn't know that you were referring to the part where the Redguards said Titus should have kept his nerve, I though that you were citing the author's statement as your source for the Redguards saying that the Empire is needed.

      5. Technically it did hold out, because it wasn't taken by the Dominion. Just because Gilane fell didn't mean that Taneth had to fall. Gilane, Taneth, and Hegathe are all located on the coastline, with similar geographical features surrounding them. If Taneth was betrayed, that means that they had been holding the Dominion Armies off until it was betrayed. If Taneth hadn't been betrayed, and continued to fight, less forces would have been available to besiege Hegathe, then both of them would have had an easier time. Also, the Thalmor did invade the interior of Hammerfell. Lady Arannelya crossed Western Cyrodiil to get at them at the same time that Hammerfell was invaded from the sea.

      Elinhir is specifically mentioned as being across the border, in Hammerfell, during the events of Skyrim. The last mention of Dragonstar, or at least Eastern Dragonstar, being held by the Nords was in 3E 432. Notice how neither of these cities are able to be visited in Skyrim. Why? Because the Nords probably don't hold them anymore. What events could have lead to them abandoning these cities? The answer to that question is very simple: the Oblivion Crisis. The Old Holds are mentioned in Oblivion's rumors as being laid to waste by the Daedra, and the Nords are mentioned as having been overrun and hit hard. They probably needed men, so more likely than not they withdrew from Elinhir, Jehenna, and Dragonstar. Or the High King simply gave it back to them, similar to how he gave Solstheim to the Dunmer. As for Hegathe, The Great War specifically lists it as a southern city. 

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 3. I'm sure they could have sent some people from Skyrim or High Rock, they didn't get affected by the war as much. And, the conflict between the Redguards and Dominion lasted five years. They could have mustered something up.

      4. He says that Hammerfell and the Empire need to be united to win. You said that the Redguards said this. At the time, I didn't know that you were referring to the part where the Redguards said Titus should have kept his nerve, I though that you were citing the author's statement as your source for the Redguards saying that the Empire is needed.

      5. Technically it did hold out, because it wasn't taken by the Dominion. Just because Gilane fell didn't mean that Taneth had to fall. Gilane, Taneth, and Hegathe are all located on the coastline, with similar geographical features surrounding them. If Taneth was betrayed, that means that they had been holding the Dominion Armies off until it was betrayed. If Taneth hadn't been betrayed, and continued to fight, less forces would have been available to besiege Hegathe, then both of them would have had an easier time. Also, the Thalmor did invade the interior of Hammerfell. Lady Arannelya crossed Western Cyrodiil to get at them at the same time that Hammerfell was invaded from the sea.

      Elinhir is specifically mentioned as being across the border, in Hammerfell, during the events of Skyrim. The last mention of Dragonstar, or at least Eastern Dragonstar, being held by the Nords was in 3E 432. Notice how neither of these cities are able to be visited in Skyrim. Why? Because the Nords probably don't hold them anymore. What events could have lead to them abandoning these cities? The answer to that question is very simple: the Oblivion Crisis. The Old Holds are mentioned in Oblivion's rumors as being laid to waste by the Daedra, and the Nords are mentioned as having been overrun and hit hard. They probably needed men, so more likely than not they withdrew from Elinhir, Jehenna, and Dragonstar. Or the High King simply gave it back to them, similar to how he gave Solstheim to the Dunmer. As for Hegathe, The Great War specifically lists it as a southern city. 

      3. High Rock got affected highly by the GW, hence why they lost Wayrest not that long after it. Skyrim's Legions were also withdrawn from Skyrim and "killed by the thousands". And, as I said, if the Empire is caught in any way aiding the enemy of the Dominion, the Dominion would burn the WGC and continue with their war with the Empire.

      4. Nah, that'd be very hypocritical of me haha. Seems like it was just a misunderstanding between you and me.

      5. Since when does betrayal = losing? Roggvir betrayed Solitude, did Solitude fall to Ulfric? No. And the reason she did that was because the coastline was no longer their goal due to them realising Cyrodiil's weakness.

      In the province of Hammerfell, part of the Kingdom of Skyrim. Lmao, we can't visit Rosacrea either, does that mean the Nords don't hold it? Broken logic, Skyrim is based in the province of Skyrim, not the Kingdom. By your own Logic: Mainland Morrowind isn't part of Morrowind because TES 3: Morrowind takes part on Vvardenfell.

      By that logic Hammerfell only has one northern city under Redguard rule; Sentinel. Why was this even a point to begin with?

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    • 3. Well, the Thalmor are aiding the Stormcloaks, and the Empire is none the wiser. Who's to say they couldn't have done the same thing, especially since the Thalmor are too busy fighting the Redguards.

      4. Indeed.

      5. Well, according to Kematu, Saadia opened the gate to the Thalmor forces. That's why the city fell. If she never opened the gates, maybe it would never have fallen.

      How exactly is it part of the Kingdom of Skyrim if it's mentioned to be in Hammerfell? The War of the Bend'r Mahk was over two centuries ago, and the last time Elinhir and Dragonstar were mentioned to be part of Skyrim was in 4E 432, before the Oblivion Crisis. And Elinhir is specificaly mentioned to be in the Redguards' hands now. Just because I had a bout of broken logic doesn't mean that my point is wrong.

      We were talking about the weakness of Hammerfell and you said that there's no way they could have rebuilt in the twenty years since the second treaty because there are only 2 northern cities, one of which is Hegathe. The 2 northern cities and Hegathe being one of them isn't correct.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 3. Well, the Thalmor are aiding the Stormcloaks, and the Empire is none the wiser. Who's to say they couldn't have done the same thing, especially since the Thalmor are too busy fighting the Redguards.

      4. Indeed.

      5. Well, according to Kematu, Saadia opened the gate to the Thalmor forces. That's why the city fell. If she never opened the gates, maybe it would never have fallen.

      How exactly is it part of the Kingdom of Skyrim if it's mentioned to be in Hammerfell? The War of the Bend'r Mahk was over two centuries ago, and the last time Elinhir and Dragonstar were mentioned to be part of Skyrim was in 4E 432, before the Oblivion Crisis. And Elinhir is specificaly mentioned to be in the Redguards' hands now. Just because I had a bout of broken logic doesn't mean that my point is wrong.

      We were talking about the weakness of Hammerfell and you said that there's no way they could have rebuilt in the twenty years since the second treaty because there are only 2 northern cities, one of which is Hegathe. The 2 northern cities and Hegathe being one of them isn't correct.

      3. Because unlike the Empire the Dominion could've won the Great War.

      5. Kematu says that she commited treason, he never says what kind. He doesn't even mention city gates.

      Province of Hammerfell - Kingdom of Skyrim. Just like how Skyrim is a province and part of the Empire. Prove that it is in the Redguards' hands.

      In that case there's one northern city, it doesn't invalidate my point, Hammerfell had 2 cities left that were the least harmed by the war, that's the point, not the location.

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    • 3. And the Empire could have just as easily discovered the Thalmor's involvement and declared war against them. Not only would this keep the Nords on their side, ruining the Thalmor's plan, it could also have the Redguards join in. And while the Redguards are pretty screwed, the Empire definitely had more than enough time to recover and learn from the war. 

      5. I thought he did. Although I did go through his dialogue, and he states that if it were not for her betrayal, Taneth would have held it's ground during the war. The Redguards are honest, after all, you did prove that they admitted that they needed the Empire.

      "I picked up a trick from a butcher in Elinhir, a small town over the border in Hammerfell. He showed me a way to grind up ice wraith teeth and use it as a preservative. Keeps everything cold and fresh, but only for a limited time." -Marise Aravel. Elinhir is part of Hammerfell, which is no longer part of the Empire. You can't have something be part of the Kingdom of Skyrim, which is part of the Empire, and yet be past the border in Hammerfell. As for Dragonstar, only the Eastern half was ever taken by the Nords. At the bare minimum, there are 2.5 northern cities. I've proven, with up-to-date dialogue that at least Elinhir is in the Redguards' hands. When were Elinhir and Eastern Dragonstar taken by the Nords? In the War of the Bend'r Mahk, in 3E 397. The lastest reference to Eastern Dragonstar and Elinhir being Skyrim territory is 3E 392. It's been over 200 years, your claim of Elinhir and Dragonstar being in Nord hands is outdated, as I've seen no evidence of this state of affairs continuing to exist in 4E 201, while there is evidence to the contrary.   

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 3. And the Empire could have just as easily discovered the Thalmor's involvement and declared war against them. Not only would this keep the Nords on their side, ruining the Thalmor's plan, it could also have the Redguards join in. And while the Redguards are pretty screwed, the Empire definitely had more than enough time to recover and learn from the war. 

      5. I thought he did. Although I did go through his dialogue, and he states that if it were not for her betrayal, Taneth would have held it's ground during the war. The Redguards are honest, after all, you did prove that they admitted that they needed the Empire.

      "I picked up a trick from a butcher in Elinhir, a small town over the border in Hammerfell. He showed me a way to grind up ice wraith teeth and use it as a preservative. Keeps everything cold and fresh, but only for a limited time." -Marise Aravel. Elinhir is part of Hammerfell, which is no longer part of the Empire. You can't have something be part of the Kingdom of Skyrim, which is part of the Empire, and yet be past the border in Hammerfell. As for Dragonstar, only the Eastern half was ever taken by the Nords. At the bare minimum, there are 2.5 northern cities. I've proven, with up-to-date dialogue that at least Elinhir is in the Redguards' hands. When were Elinhir and Eastern Dragonstar taken by the Nords? In the War of the Bend'r Mahk, in 3E 397. The lastest reference to Eastern Dragonstar and Elinhir being Skyrim territory is 3E 392. It's been over 200 years, your claim of Elinhir and Dragonstar being in Nord hands is outdated, as I've seen no evidence of this state of affairs continuing to exist in 4E 201, while there is evidence to the contrary.   

      3. Only issue here is that the Dominion is stronger than the Empire.

      5. But there's a big difference here, he can't be certain about this because Taneth was lost, it never hold its ground. Most important part is that Kematu says it may have held its ground, not that it would have.

      The provincial borders, yes. But that doesn't invalidate my point, Hammerfell and Skyrim are different provinces. Even under the Nordic Empire the cities of Dragonstar and Elinhir were over the Hammerfell border, doesn't take away that they were under Nord rule. There is no evidence to support what you say, since it doesn't show wether she means the Kingdom of Skyrim or the province of Skyrim. Rosacrea for example was annexed by Solitude, but is an island-nation.

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    • 3. Even if they are stronger, it certainly didn't stop them from being utterly crushed in the Battle of the Red Ring.

      5. Well it is implied that Taneth was holding it's ground until Saadia betrayed it. I guess the truth of whether it held it's ground or not will never be known at this point.

      Hammerfell isn't a province, not anymore. You can't have something be part of the Kingdom of Hammerfell and the Kingdom of Skyrim. There's no way. As for Roscrea, that isn't a good example. It was conquered by Uriel V and was a territory of the Empire that was annexed into Haafingar hold. Now you say that I don't have evidence, you don't either, there is no dialogue or book or anything that has mentioned Elinhir and Dragonstar being part of Skyrim in the Fourth Era, the last mention of this was in 3E 432. 

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 3. Even if they are stronger, it certainly didn't stop them from being utterly crushed in the Battle of the Red Ring.

      5. Well it is implied that Taneth was holding it's ground until Saadia betrayed it. I guess the truth of whether it held it's ground or not will never be known at this point.

      Hammerfell isn't a province, not anymore. You can't have something be part of the Kingdom of Hammerfell and the Kingdom of Skyrim. There's no way. As for Roscrea, that isn't a good example. It was conquered by Uriel V and was a territory of the Empire that was annexed into Haafingar hold. Now you say that I don't have evidence, you don't either, there is no dialogue or book or anything that has mentioned Elinhir and Dragonstar being part of Skyrim in the Fourth Era, the last mention of this was in 3E 432. 

      3. Utterly crushed is a big word. Remember how the Empire saw itself as too weak to continue? Despite the fresh Legions from Skyrim?

      5. Thank you, that's all I wanted to hear.

      It is a province, every "country" is a province in TES universe. A province and a kingdom are two different beings, a province is a certain plot of land, marked by name, a kingdom expands by conquest. When the British conqeured parts of America for example, it didn't change its name to "the United Kingdom", nope, it was still called America, same thing.

      And there's nothing to contradict that. Until there's cold-hard evidence that it's no longer under Nord rule, it simply is.

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    • 3. Sure, the Empire butchered it's own men, but it still utterly crushed the Thalmor. The book says that the main force of the Thalmor armies in Cyrodiil was utterly wiped out.

      Well how does the Kingdom of Skyrim continue to exist if it's a province of the Empire? Shouldn't any annexed territories simply be added to their province? The only way that would actually work is if by saying "it's over the border in Hammerfell" meant that it is what was once part of Hammerfell, and thus associated with the Province, while it is in fact part of the Province of Skyrim. 

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 3. Sure, the Empire butchered it's own men, but it still utterly crushed the Thalmor. The book says that the main force of the Thalmor armies in Cyrodiil was utterly wiped out.

      Well how does the Kingdom of Skyrim continue to exist if it's a province of the Empire? Shouldn't any annexed territories simply be added to their province? The only way that would actually work is if by saying "it's over the border in Hammerfell" meant that it is what was once part of Hammerfell, and thus associated with the Province, while it is in fact part of the Province of Skyrim. 

      1. The main Aldmeri army in Cyrodiil, yeah... The same army which, alongside the army of Hammerfell, is responsible for the death of over half the entire force of the Imperial Legions....

      Why do you think Skyrim has a High King? Why do you think Hammerfell was able to say "no" to the WGC? Skyrim is a Kingdom, Skyrim the Kingdom = The province of Skyrim + Additional land conqeured by it. Provinces don't expand unless if the ruling party of the other land decides to give it away. Provinces remain locked in place,

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    • 1. Still crushed, whether or not the Empire lost a lot of it's own men doesn't change the fact that the Thalmor army was crushed.

      The High King is the ruler of Solitude and the Province of Skyrim, Hammerfell was renounced as a province of the Empire. Just because Skyrim the Province is a kingdom doesn't mean that there is a separate entity, the Kingdom of Skyrim, that rules over the Province and additional territories. You said yourself that a Province is equivalent to a country, though you seem to be reffering to it as if it were a region, with locations inside the Province being fixed until it is decided that it is no longer so by the authorities. I maintain that "Skyrim the Kingdom = The province of Skyrim + Additional land conquered by it" is bullshit unless you can give me a source that validates your claim. 

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    • The Z Boss wrote: 1. Still crushed, whether or not the Empire lost a lot of it's own men doesn't change the fact that the Thalmor army was crushed.

      The High King is the ruler of Solitude and the Province of Skyrim, Hammerfell was renounced as a province of the Empire. Just because Skyrim the Province is a kingdom doesn't mean that there is a separate entity, the Kingdom of Skyrim, that rules over the Province and additional territories. You said yourself that a Province is equivalent to a country, though you seem to be reffering to it as if it were a region, with locations inside the Province being fixed until it is decided that it is no longer so by the authorities. I maintain that "Skyrim the Kingdom = The province of Skyrim + Additional land conquered by it" is bullshit unless you can give me a source that validates your claim. 

      1. A Dominion army, yes. Not all of it though.

      2. And this is what you're missing, how could Hammerfell -- as a province of the Empire -- deny the WGC when it was ruled by the Emperor? And yes, there is a significant difference here, Kingdoms aren't limited to one country/province.

      That's how it works in real life. Don't believe me? Search for "The Kingdom of the Netherlands", I can already tell you, it holds more land than the Netherlands itself.

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    • A. Well, most of the forces that the Thalmor had in Cyrodiil. They diverted all available forces to Cyrodiil in 4E 174 to take the Imperial City, and they were all defeated in the Battle of the Red Ring. 

      B. Now the Emperor let them go so they could deny the peace treaty, so he could preserve the peace. He could have just as easily put the hammer down and force the Redguards to accept the treaty but he was too tired of war and he decided not to do so. Seemed like a wise decision at the time, but ultimately resulted in the war being a strategic victory for the Thalmor.

      The only problem with your example is that The Kingdom of the Netherlands only controls islands in the Caribbean outside of the Netherlands proper, while Hammerfell is right next to Skyrim.

      When the German Empire annexed Alsace-Lorraine from neighboring France in 1871, was it "over the border in France?" No, it was part of the country (Germany) even though it was a region that was associated with France until that time. You describe the Provinces of Tamriel as a country, i.e. sovereign nation, though the context that you use them in are more akin to a region rather than a sovereign nation.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: A. Well, most of the forces that the Thalmor had in Cyrodiil. They diverted all available forces to Cyrodiil in 4E 174 to take the Imperial City, and they were all defeated in the Battle of the Red Ring. 

      B. Now the Emperor let them go so they could deny the peace treaty, so he could preserve the peace. He could have just as easily put the hammer down and force the Redguards to accept the treaty but he was too tired of war and he decided not to do so. Seemed like a wise decision at the time, but ultimately resulted in the war being a strategic victory for the Thalmor.

      The only problem with your example is that The Kingdom of the Netherlands only controls islands in the Caribbean outside of the Netherlands proper, while Hammerfell is right next to Skyrim.

      When the German Empire annexed Alsace-Lorraine from neighboring France in 1871, was it "over the border in France?" No, it was part of the country (Germany) even though it was a region that was associated with France until that time. You describe the Provinces of Tamriel as a country, i.e. sovereign nation, though the context that you use them in are more akin to a region rather than a sovereign nation.

      A: Which is, again, just in Cyrodiil.

      B: Prove it. Prove that the Emperor did so willingly.

      And why would that matter?

      It was part of the German Empire, not Germany.

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    • A. Ok.

      B. "Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal."-The Great War. If the Redguards looked on this as a betrayal, they weren't pushing for independence from the Empire. He did so on his own accord, nothing forced him to do so except for the threat of continued war with the Dominion.

      Because it does not provide an example that is comparable to Elinhir and East Dragonstar.

      Germany was the German Empire.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: B. "Titus II was forced to officially renounce Hammerfell as an Imperial province in order to preserve the hard-won peace treaty. The Redguards, understandably, looked on this as a betrayal."-The Great War. If the Redguards looked on this as a betrayal, they weren't pushing for independence from the Empire. He did so on his own accord, nothing forced him to do so except for the threat of continued war with the Dominion.

      Because it does not provide an example that is comparable to Elinhir and East Dragonstar.

      Germany was the German Empire.

      B: Exactly, he was forced to do so because Hammerfell did not sign the WGC, but instead refused it, meaning that the war would continue since Hammerfell was part of the Empire.

      All right, you want another example? Fine, ever heard of the Roman Empire? Or the British Empire?

      Germany wasn't a thing back then. An an Empire has member states, it's not one country. Hence the term Empire.

      Oh, and btw, according to your logic, why didn't Skyrim become part of Cyrodiil when the Imperials conqeured it in the Second Era?

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    • B. Isn't that what I said earlier?

      The main gripe that I have with what you're saying is that Elinhir and East Dragonstar are both part of the nation of Hammerfell while at the same time being part of the Kingdom of Skyrim. There is no way that would work, you can't take over part of another country and yet refer to a piece of territory that you control as being there. Like I said before, Alsace-Lorraine wasn't considered "France" after it was annexed. Northern Ireland is not considered part of the United Kingdom and part of the Republic of Ireland, it is only part of the U.K., not both entities.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: B. Isn't that what I said earlier?

      The main gripe that I have with what you're saying is that Elinhir and East Dragonstar are both part of the nation of Hammerfell while at the same time being part of the Kingdom of Skyrim. There is no way that would work, you can't take over part of another country and yet refer to a piece of territory that you control as being there. Like I said before, Alsace-Lorraine wasn't considered "France" after it was annexed. Northern Ireland is not considered part of the United Kingdom and part of the Republic of Ireland, it is only part of the U.K., not both entities.

      B: No, you claimed that Hammerfell didn't rule over itself and that the Empire did, this proves it wrong.

      Except that you can. Ireland is still Ireland, thank you for proving my point. The UK is actually England and subjucated states, Scotland and Northern Ireland. On the map you don't see them as Northern-Ireland and Scotland, but just as the UK, but that doesn't mean that those territories aren't considerd different land under one Kingdom.

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    • B. It didn't rule over itself in the way that, while the Redguards may make their own decisions, they are ultimately subservient to the Emperor. He didn't have to expell them if he didn't want to keep the peace.

      Northern Ireland is part of the island of Ireland, but it isn't part of the country of Ireland. You said that a Province is a country, i.e. a polity. Is Northern Ireland part of two polities? Nope, just one. And Elinhir is mentioned as being "across the border", in Hammerfell. If it was part of the Kingdom of Skyrim, like the province of Skyrim, why would there be a border, exactly?

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    • The Z Boss wrote: B. It didn't rule over itself in the way that, while the Redguards may make their own decisions, they are ultimately subservient to the Emperor. He didn't have to expell them if he didn't want to keep the peace.

      Northern Ireland is part of the island of Ireland, but it isn't part of the country of Ireland. You said that a Province is a country, i.e. a polity. Is Northern Ireland part of two polities? Nope, just one. And Elinhir is mentioned as being "across the border", in Hammerfell. If it was part of the Kingdom of Skyrim, like the province of Skyrim, why would there be a border, exactly?

      B: Except that he did, hence why Hammerfell was able to say "no" to the WGC.

      Thank you, the island is called Ireland, and so is the country(-ies) on it. Same thing applies to Hammerfell, Hammerfell the province =/= Hammerfell the land. Regional border, like the one between Whiterun Hold and the Rift.

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    • B. He was forced to by the threat of continued war. Hammerfell refused to accept, which is why he let it go so it could say no.

      Except you called the Province a country, not a region. And just because Skyrim is a Kingdom doesn't at all mean that it has to have territory outside of it. The Kingdom of Belgium has no territory outside of Belgium. The United States isn't a Kingom, but it still controls alot of island that aren't states in the Union. The Kingdom of Skyrim is the formal name for the Province and it's government. 

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    • The Z Boss wrote: B. He was forced to by the threat of continued war. Hammerfell refused to accept, which is why he let it go so it could say no.

      Except you called the Province a country, not a region. And just because Skyrim is a Kingdom doesn't at all mean that it has to have territory outside of it. The Kingdom of Belgium has no territory outside of Belgium. The United States isn't a Kingom, but it still controls alot of island that aren't states in the Union. The Kingdom of Skyrim is the formal name for the Province and it's government. 

      B: Hammerfell couldn't refuse if it were under full Imperial reign.

      Because Hammerfell the country is located in Hammerfell the region. No it isn't. Just like how the Roman Empire had Gaul as a client state.

      And you still didn't answer my question; why didn't Skyrim turn into Cyrodiil when Cyrodiil conqeured it?

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    • B. They could attempt to refuse it. Besides, full Imperial regin wasn't present due to infighting between the Crowns and Forebears.

      Well now you just changed your own definition of Province to suit your argument. Although I will accept defeat because I found in-game lore. In The Great War, Naarifin's army marches out of "hidden camps in Northern Elsweyr" although the Elsewyr Confederacy had been dissolved and had split into the Kingdoms of Anequina and Pelletine.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: B. They could attempt to refuse it. Besides, full Imperial regin wasn't present due to infighting between the Crowns and Forebears.

      Well now you just changed your own definition of Province to suit your argument. Although I will accept defeat because I found in-game lore. In The Great War, Naarifin's army marches out of "hidden camps in Northern Elsweyr" although the Elsewyr Confederacy had been dissolved and had split into the Kingdoms of Anequina and Pelletine.

      B: No they couldn't, that's what you've been saying this entire time. The Crowns and Forebears fight over culture, not rulership.

      No I didn't.

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    • B: Well fighting between the Crowns and Forebears would certainly impede efforts to rule over the province. And the Redguards refusing the WGC, forcing the Emperor to release them, doesn't mean that Titus had no power to stop them.

      First you called a Province a country, then you called a Province a region. Those are completely different things.

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    • The Z Boss wrote: B: Well fighting between the Crowns and Forebears would certainly impede efforts to rule over the province. And the Redguards refusing the WGC, forcing the Emperor to release them, doesn't mean that Titus had no power to stop them.

      First you called a Province a country, then you called a Province a region. Those are completely different things.

      B: Nope, the Crowns and Forebears have been at war since well, nearly forever. It's a cultural thing, not a rulership thing, hence why they didn't fight the Imperial Legion nor the Imperial government, but one another. And you need to prove that Titus did have the power to do so, and, if he did, why he didn't.

      Both are correct according to definition.

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    • I view the Stormcloak civil war as the Skyrim version of the War of Independence.  The Stormcloaks want a religion free, as well as have Skyrim be it's own independent land, while the Imperial Legion want people to continue following the laws and pay, similar to the British in the 1700s.  The Stormcloaks also dressed in the same color as the Americans did, while the Imperial Legion was dressed as the British red coats.  Ulfric may be racist, but like what happened in our history, I believe that Skyrim also had a segregation tactic that would be later fought and challenged, ultimately ending in a high note.

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    • Scout Trooper 164 wrote: I view the Stormcloak civil war as the Skyrim version of the War of Independence.  The Stormcloaks want a religion free, as well as have Skyrim be it's own independent land, while the Imperial Legion want people to continue following the laws and pay, similar to the British in the 1700s.  The Stormcloaks also dressed in the same color as the Americans did, while the Imperial Legion was dressed as the British red coats.  Ulfric may be racist, but like what happened in our history, I believe that Skyrim also had a segregation tactic that would be later fought and challenged, ultimately ending in a high note.

      Comparing the USA to Skyrim is faulty in more ways than I can mention.

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    • The empire is weak and corrupted, the emperor will sell his soul to keep his throne. Regardless of which side win, the empire is dismantled with the death of their emperor. He WILL be assasinated by someone but no one knows who. Just check the questline of the guild against previous version of elder scrolls.

      No one knows whether Ulfric will  win or lose until the next elder scroll is released.

      Thalmor wins.

      Empire lose.

      Hammerfell rebuild itself.

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    • I feel that the war is won by the Stormies, and not just because I like their virtues more and hate their problems equally with the Empire's. It's a thing that all of the quests in the games are completed, just not necessarily by the latest chosen one. For example, if your Dragonborn is a pure warrior, it means some aspiring mage we don't know about went gallivanting around finding the Staff of Magnus and stopping Ancano. Heck, the only thing we know the Dragonborn does is completing the Main Quest and stopping Miraak (and Dawnguard is annoying thanks to critical decisions early on).

      So, it's quite possible that even if the Dragonborn stays out of the war and is some sort of paladin, some hero will rise through the ranks of one side and the Listener will kill the Emperor. The fact that the Emperor dies is why I feel that that hero will be a Stormcloak. Look at the reasons Mede is killed- his assassination has been called for by a member of the Elder Council. That stinks of ensuing wars of succession in Cyrodiil, as it's rational to assume Motierre isn't the only member with a lust for the throne. So, it seems to me that the Empire is also about to start imploding on itself. I feel that- although I am sad to see it go, as I'm sure many of us are- the Empire's doom is inevitable at this point. I really doubt that the Empire can support the civil war and a war of succession back home. In fact, I'd say that the evidence points to Mede being killed smack dab in the middle of the conflict. There are three times that the Emperor can die- after an Imperial victory, after a Stormcloak victory, or before the war ends. I think we can safely say that him visiting Skyrim after the Stormcloaks win would be pretty ridiculous. If he went after the Imperials win, he dies. (on a personal note, the fact that the DrB would join the Legion and then assassinate the Emperor always seemed rather silly...) If he goes during the War, he dies.

      Coming to my point, I feel that Mede being killed during the war and the succeeding conflict of succession will turn out to be the factor that tips the balance against the Empire. I can practically imagine the R-Rated rant that Tullius would launch into upon learning that all of his reinforcements are currently dying for petty politicians. 

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    • Aramirtheranger wrote: 1. It's a thing that all of the quests in the games are completed, just not necessarily by the latest chosen one.

      So, it's quite possible that even if the Dragonborn stays out of the war and is some sort of paladin, some hero will rise through the ranks of one side and the Listener will kill the Emperor. The fact that the Emperor dies is why I feel that that hero will be a Stormcloak. Look at the reasons Mede is killed- his assassination has been called for by a member of the Elder Council. That stinks of ensuing wars of succession in Cyrodiil, as it's rational to assume Motierre isn't the only member with a lust for the throne. So, it seems to me that the Empire is also about to start imploding on itself. I feel that- although I am sad to see it go, as I'm sure many of us are- the Empire's doom is inevitable at this point. I really doubt that the Empire can support the civil war and a war of succession back home. In fact, I'd say that the evidence points to Mede being killed smack dab in the middle of the conflict. There are three times that the Emperor can die- after an Imperial victory, after a Stormcloak victory, or before the war ends. I think we can safely say that him visiting Skyrim after the Stormcloaks win would be pretty ridiculous. If he went after the Imperials win, he dies. (on a personal note, the fact that the DrB would join the Legion and then assassinate the Emperor always seemed rather silly...) If he goes during the War, he dies.

      Coming to my point, I feel that Mede being killed during the war and the succeeding conflict of succession will turn out to be the factor that tips the balance against the Empire. I can practically imagine the R-Rated rant that Tullius would launch into upon learning that all of his reinforcements are currently dying for petty politicians. 

      Except that that's not the case, look at Neloth for living evidence... No quests are completed (excluding main ones) unless if mentioned. And even then, the only Listener is the Last Dragonborn, he was selected following the death of the previous one, nobody else. Medes assassination isn't canon. At least, not yet. I don't see how it's rational to assume it's more members than just Mede either, if it were, why would Motierre hide in a ruin? Surely multiple councillors wouldn't force him to go and sit in a ruin.

      Medes death would have Cyrodiil itself up in arms against Skyrim, the Stormcloaks winning becomes even a smaller chance if Mede dies.

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