FANDOM


  • The whole premise seems outlandish and generally a bad way to sign off from Tamriel and Nirn. You have the Thalmor destroying men (Thalmor winning the war would be interesting; destroying all men not so much), then a giant robot soul thing comes down and starts destroying everything. To escape this, some races go to the moon (!!!) and then when the robot soul thing destroys Nirn it follows them to the moon (yes, they are on the f*cking moon!) only be beaten by some dude who can speak good. Yes this is set in the 5th era, which is ages away from where the Elder Scrolls games are right now, but I just really don't like this concept as a possible way to sign off Nirn.

      Loading editor
    • That's because you don't understand C0DA. This isn't your fault. Most don't understand it, and ultimately, that's really OK. So please let me help you by linking Lady Neravar's post about it. If you don't know, Lady Neravar is a long time prominant member of the TES lore community, since the days of Morrowind and beyond. She is highly knowledgable about TES lore. She also happens to be Michael Kirkbide's wife, so she has some extra insight into this.

      Short verion of the post below: It was never meant to be part of the games. Never meant to be taken at face value. It is the meaning behind the story that matters. It is the things we learn from it that matters.

      https://www.reddit.com/r/teslore/comments/2reyef/what_is_c0da_an_answer/

      As for the story and all of the meaning behind it... well that takes a lot to explain. I will touch on the main points and what you have specifically talked about.

      Outlandish Premise - 

      This isn't really that outlandish. When you dig deep into the lore you will find a shit ton of extremely obscure references to a shit ton of extremely obscure events, both in universe and out. In this particular case, the name explains it quite well. In music, a coda is an ending to a song that keeps the same ideas of the song, but changes the tone. In this case, TES is fantasy with some sci-fi and C0DA is sci-fi with some fantasy. The entire point of the plot is to finish the story of Morrowind and to tie up a bunch of loose ends left in the game.

      Thalmor destroying Man -

      There are lots of hints all oveor that Man is not completely gone. Most of the deep lore community do not believe they succeeded in this, as evidenced by Talos' presence at the bachelor party. In reality, the Thalmor and their plot are not important to C0DA.

      - Giant Robot Soul Thing

      This is Numidium. He is extremely important to the lore. He is present in TES II: Daggerfall as a main plot point. He is mentioned repeatedly in TES III: Morrowind. He is the Tower, Walk-Brass. He is the Dwemer Brass God. He is where the Dwemer disapeared to. He helped Talos Stormcrown defeat the Altmer and unite all of Tamriel under the rule of the 3rd Empire. He is a REALLY big deal. He is the most dangerous antagonist in the universe.

      - The Moon

      I'm not sure why being on the moons is such a big deal to you. Are you stuck on the idea that the moons are inhospitable like Earth's moon? If so, please understand that this is not the case. You are (almost certainly) on the moons when you are in Sovngarde. You go to the Plane of Jode in ESO, which is on the moon. Mananauts lived on the moons during the 2nd empire, and possibly continue to do so even today. As far as the races getting there, the Khajiit can climb to the moons and the Dunmer were transported there by Vivec.

      Dude Who Speaks Good

      This isn't just any dude. He is the most important dude in all of history. He is the realization of Lorkhan's entire plan. Jubal achieves Amaranth and starts his own Dream (universe). As far as him "speaking good" as you put it, this has a lot of religious undertones. Kirkbribe has a degree in comparative religion, and this can be seen a lot in his work. The most simple way to describe what happend is that he changed the nature of Numidium. You see, Numidium was built by the Dwemer to deny existence so they can transcend the Dream and escape this reality that they viewed as false. As Jubal says in C0DA, Numidium is like a teenager. He only says "NO!" to everything. Jubal got him to change his nature, and as such was able to defeat him.

      - Purpose of the Story

      Now what does this all mean, exactly? Well, this story exists to paint the picture of the Amaranth, the one who creates new life. He sacrificed himself to carry on and birth the Nu-Man.

      Thing is, you don't really have to like it. That is actually the point it is making. You make your own choices, just like Jubal did. Please feel free to ask any follow up questions if you wish. I would be more than happy to clarify anything that either you don't like or aren't sure of.

        Loading editor
    • Thanks for your reply, it's appreciated. I just want to clarify, I do know what the Numidium is, just not a huge fan of the time travelling bit. After I posted this discussion, I delved a bit into MK's added lore. I am personally not a fan. However this is just my opinion, and I can see why so many people enjoy his version of lore. I do want to address an idea I saw in the reddit thread. It was about the idea of canon. Not headcanon, I understand that is a different person's personal view of how the story goes (even I have one!). Surely the games that are published by Bethesda (as to include ESO) are canon? They are what your lore shouldn't contradict? Just wish to have that clarified. Also, I know that in the end of Daggerfal there is the event known as the 'Warp in the West'. Could an argument be made that this created multiple parallel Nirns where these sort of things can happen?

        Loading editor
    • Yes, the games are considered canon. ESO, though, is an outlier, just like the other "spin-off" games. Just like the others, a decent part of the game can be consider canon, but the game as a whole may or may not be, depending on the events of the next game. Other than the spin-offs, the games are canon to the lore.

        Loading editor
    • So the above that Ottoman Hold says isn't correct. All spin-offs are what you would call canon, or "Empire Actual" (more on that below). Just because they aren't part of the core story doesn't mean anything at all. They are all still Bethesda games.

      OP: You've definitely started down the rabbit hole here. Yes, there are alternate Nirns. No, the Warp in the West did not cause them. Think of it like the modern multiverse theory, where each choice creates an alternate universe where a separate choice is what happened.  Another example would be DC's multiverse and hypertime. (side note: the devs have always been giant comic nerds and DC is likely where this concept came from for TES). The games (all of the games) exist in what we generally call Tamriel Prime or Empire Actual. Think of it like a table top RPG universe, such as Forgotten Realms. There is a core history, core events, and core story. However, when you and your group play it, these events happen differently for you, by different people, and often completely change. Think of these alternate Nirns like your personal game with your personal mods installed. There absolutely exists a Nirn where all dragons are actually Thomas the Train.

      The majority of lore discussions take place in Tamriel Prime, but there's something you must understand. The core to TES lore.

      It is all contradictory.

      The entire series uses a writing technique called the unreliable narrator. It is meant to introduce a sense of reality where certain events and ideas are not universal. There are loads of contradictions within TES lore, and discovering different ideas that may contradict the status quo is quite common within lore groups. There's a podcast group I'm a part of that is well known in the lore community that talks about all sorts of deeper lore concepts. Here's a link to a podcast that discusses the unreliable narrator concept: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2S23yP5KjA

      Here's the same group talking about alternate realities: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaNFhjntTbY

        Loading editor
    • Further to what Sothas is saying, there doesn't need to be a single canon overall, people can (and do!) pick and choose which parts of the official story to use in their own ideas about the TES universe, and that's fine. That's where we get different "alternate universes" for Tamriel from, as Sothas said. Of course, given that the games serve as a common base for everyone, there is only so far your ideas can be different before people don't accept them, but that's up to the individual.

      To take an example from pen-and-paper roleplaying, there are numerous "setting hacks" for various roleplaying games I take part in. People freely discuss "what if" certain things get changed and what their consequences would be to the overall setting storyline. And these are thoroughly accepted by the community and their implications discussed. That's basically what C0DA and its associated viewpoint promote; change things in the setting, experiment with ideas. There is nothing that you have to hold onto as a core part of the setting if you don't want to. It's your head the world is happening in, after all.

        Loading editor
    • And with all this being said, the most sure fire way to piss off a lorebeard is to have a canon debate. What is and is not canon is a 100% meaningless discussion. Also, if someone were to provide evidence for their argument from an out of game source and your only response is "that's not canon, so I will ignore it," then you have just brought that conversion to either a screaming halt, or a flame war. Neither are acceptable.

      To my point, if you don't like something, then you're completely free to not like it. However, don't throw your opinion around in discussions that include it. Not saying you are doing that, just saying that as a heads up.

      The point of lore is to have fun with it. Shape it. Mold it. Come up with bat-shit crazy ideas. Back it up with evidence. Share it with the community and see if it sticks. If it does, great! If not, throw it away and move back tot he drawing board. This series is made for and by the community. For example, in a small and deep lore group, we currently have a post where we're discussing the potential of Molag Bal having created Pelinal. Like I said, bat-shit crazy ideas.

        Loading editor
    • Stumbled into this convo by randomly clicking and was wondering, if I wanted to get into TES lore where is a good starting point? Seems so interesting to me and I'd love to learn more.

        Loading editor
    • 2602:306:32CD:5AE0:E5C7:5465:B068:1B41 wrote: Stumbled into this convo by randomly clicking and was wondering, if I wanted to get into TES lore where is a good starting point? Seems so interesting to me and I'd love to learn more.

      Slightly off topic question, but I'd recommend the Pocket Guide to The Empire, Third Edition.

        Loading editor
    • This page broke me. I read it, read it again, and still understand all of it, which I do not want to. This lore is more confusing than trying to figure out how the Holiday Specials fit into Star Wars lore.

        Loading editor
    • Forget about Jubal smoking skooma - I'm pretty sure Kirkbride smoked a whole sack of the stuff before writing this.

        Loading editor
    • Personally, I would pretty much ignore Kirkbride's lore after he left Bethesda. 

        Loading editor
    • GamerSophie wrote: Personally, I would pretty much ignore Kirkbride's lore after he left Bethesda. 

      Then you would have to ignore Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO.

        Loading editor
    • I don't know why or how this thread has come back to life, but I respect Kirkbride and the work he has put into his lore. It's all interesting, and while I don't envision Elder Scrolls going his way in the end, the point is that we all enjoy it, right?

        Loading editor
    • Sothas wrote:

      GamerSophie wrote: Personally, I would pretty much ignore Kirkbride's lore after he left Bethesda. 

      Then you would have to ignore Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO.

      Basically, you can see it in this way:

      1. Whatever Kirkbride wrote when he wrote Morrowind's story and whatever else he wrote as officially part of Bethesda is canon, as they are part of the game you play. Sure, there can be inconsistencies, but you can blame them on different writers and all the changes. These are factors out of the game and its world you can't control

      2. Whatever Kirkbride wrote after he left Bethesda is basically Fanfic. You can like or hate fanfic. You can agree or disagree that fanfic is better than the real plot. It can be AU. It may or may not predict correctly the actual canon depending on the accuracy of the writer's guesses. There can be overlaps. But it is still "fanfiction" no matter how you phrase it.

      If I am not wrong, the actual intent of C0DA and some of Kirkbride's writing ISN'T to be taken at face value. He is reminding the player that the power of lore is within their hands, just as he has the wiggle room to write his wild theory/fanfic. Basically, he is telling people to go write their own story on TES, no? Encouraging people to play with ideas, as earlier mentioned on this thread.

      Yes, I know I am beating a dead horse. And no, Gamer Sophie is free to ignore Kirkbride's lore, just as how you are free to accept it. One cannot argue whatever Michael Kirkbride wrote as definitive canon or non canon, as it lies outside of the scope of the games and what is presented in them.

        Loading editor
    • Sothas wrote:

      GamerSophie wrote: Personally, I would pretty much ignore Kirkbride's lore after he left Bethesda. 

      Then you would have to ignore Oblivion, Skyrim, and ESO.

      1. He worked a little on Oblivion before he left so no, I'm not ignoring it. And it's not like Bethesda threw out his previous lore for Skyrim; the new lore from Oblivion onwards (and I mean in-game) was not created by Kirkbride. His previous lore from before Oblivion is canon and appears in future games, it's just Bethesda added on to it themselves with their own ideas without using the lore he created after he left. His post-Bethesda lore is his own interpretation of where he would have taken it/added into it, but of course not including C0DA (With Starfield brainstormed for nearly a decade now, Bethesda would not have made a fantasy RPG involve space travelling).

      2. Until ES6 confirms that Online is apart of the canon and not in it's own timeline, then I will.

        Loading editor
    • Not unless Numedium is destroyed in a future game.

        Loading editor
    • All lore created by Kirkbride that appear in every game is canon. The lore created outside of his departure from Bethesda is fanfiction. His CODA is simply that; his. His own interpretation.

      Until a TES game takes us to the moon I will continue to believe that.

        Loading editor
    • That's why I want an ES game where you can prevent Landfall.

        Loading editor
    • Not gonna' lie, C0DA is to actual official TES lore what JK Rowling's tweets would be to Harry Potter if she'd completely quit the franchise and it no longer belonged to her. Past involvement in a project doesn't give you access to write it's present lore. 

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.