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  • Anyone here who sympathize with Forsworn,they cause and want to join them? I think they are first on the Reach,they are hard fighters who stand against stranger powers and wars for their stolen homeland and everybody see them just like murderes and have no care about their culture.They should be a nice fraction.Mod also should be usefull.

    What do you think? Btw.Sorry about bad english I have a Forsworn origin :D

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    • Yeah I followed Madanach and his buddies all the way to Druadach Redoubt, killing a dragon with them, but what a disappointment when I saw there is no possibilities to join the Forsworn. Btw, regular Forsworn at Druadach Redoubt where friendly as well.

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    • Thats good fight :D I lost them from sight when another Forsworn group attacked me.I know the Redoubt is only friendly place but I miss a quest for them :D

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    • I sided with madanach. I love the forsworn. They're my favourite faction.

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    • The reachmen sided with Molag Bal when he attempted to invade Nirn during the second age. They're monsters who sold out all mortals to a malevolent deity and they perform regular human sacrifices. They're nothing more than an infestation that are currently trying to smear history by saying they were there first. The reachmen are a group of Bretons, Bretons are a very young race, being created by the Aldemeri through evil and profane magicks. The claim that they're natives is a load of bull as Nords have been in the Skyrim area long before Bretons were even a race.

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    • Yep they remember me of native americans and silver blood looks like the first colonists.

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    • Phantasys wrote:
      The reachmen sided with Molag Bal when he attempted to invade Nirn during the second age. They're monsters who sold out all mortals to a malevolent deity and they perform regular human sacrifices. They're nothing more than an infestation that are currently trying to smear history by saying they were there first. The reachmen are a group of Bretons, Bretons are a very young race, being created by the Aldemeri through evil and profane magicks. The claim that they're natives is a load of bull as Nords have been in the Skyrim area long before Bretons were even a race.

      this is so insanely wrong, for one i agree about the forsworn but, unless im wrong they had nothing to do with molag bal, acctually your "evil magics" explanation is the only bull i see as bretons are part altmer, part atmortan (nords before they came to skyrim) and second, the reachmen are part breton, part NORD (reachman just isnt an in game race) so methinks you need to read up instead of sitting around

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    • Superior Skymonkey wrote:
      Phantasys wrote:
      The reachmen sided with Molag Bal when he attempted to invade Nirn during the second age. They're monsters who sold out all mortals to a malevolent deity and they perform regular human sacrifices. They're nothing more than an infestation that are currently trying to smear history by saying they were there first. The reachmen are a group of Bretons, Bretons are a very young race, being created by the Aldemeri through evil and profane magicks. The claim that they're natives is a load of bull as Nords have been in the Skyrim area long before Bretons were even a race.
      this is so insanely wrong, for one i agree about the forsworn but, unless im wrong they had nothing to do with molag bal, acctually your "evil magics" explanation is the only bull i see as bretons are part altmer, part atmortan (nords before they came to skyrim) and second, the reachmen are part breton, part NORD (reachman just isnt an in game race) so methinks you need to read up instead of sitting around

      HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You're adorable! 

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Reachmen_(Online) Allies of Molag Bal

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_Third_Edition:_High_Rock Nords discovered bretons and they were purposely engineered by the aldmer

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Reachmen shows that they are of breton stock

      Now go be wrong somewhere else.

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    • Phantasys wrote:
      Superior Skymonkey wrote:
      Phantasys wrote:
      The reachmen sided with Molag Bal when he attempted to invade Nirn during the second age. They're monsters who sold out all mortals to a malevolent deity and they perform regular human sacrifices. They're nothing more than an infestation that are currently trying to smear history by saying they were there first. The reachmen are a group of Bretons, Bretons are a very young race, being created by the Aldemeri through evil and profane magicks. The claim that they're natives is a load of bull as Nords have been in the Skyrim area long before Bretons were even a race.
      this is so insanely wrong, for one i agree about the forsworn but, unless im wrong they had nothing to do with molag bal, acctually your "evil magics" explanation is the only bull i see as bretons are part altmer, part atmortan (nords before they came to skyrim) and second, the reachmen are part breton, part NORD (reachman just isnt an in game race) so methinks you need to read up instead of sitting around
      HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! You're adorable! 

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Reachmen_(Online) Allies of Molag Bal

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_Third_Edition:_High_Rock Nords discovered bretons and they were purposely engineered by the aldmer

      http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Reachmen shows that they are of breton stock

      Now go be wrong somewhere else.

      ok, i was wrong ALOT but, magic had nothing to do with it, the altmer bred their "perfect" blood and with men came the bretons, i never said the reachmen had nothing to do with bretons, i said they aren't PURE bretons, not hat they arent bretons at all

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    • Phantasys wrote:
      The reachmen sided with Molag Bal when he attempted to invade Nirn during the second age. They're monsters who sold out all mortals to a malevolent deity and they perform regular human sacrifices. They're nothing more than an infestation that are currently trying to smear history by saying they were there first. The reachmen are a group of Bretons, Bretons are a very young race, being created by the Aldemeri through evil and profane magicks. The claim that they're natives is a load of bull as Nords have been in the Skyrim area long before Bretons were even a race.

      I never think of them like that  I must learn some Skyrim history :D But history is really complicated Reachmen must find their place to live like Nords who invaded Snow Elves and make them live like monsters in underground caves...

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    • because one snap of the fingers and the help of madanach nazeem will knw who controls him then

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    • The nords reached Skyrim and use to be friendly with Snow Elves, even trading with them and being in good terms. But then the Snow Elves discovered that the Nords found the Eye of Magnus and decided to attack Saarthal and slaughtered them all except Ysgramor. After that, Ysgramor came back and took revenge.

      The Elves were the one who attacked first.

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    • Lol, Atmorans was in Reach and they spread to entire Tamriel. They're the forefathers of all human races remember? (except Redguards) Forsworn are degenerated Bretons without history and they claim nothing.

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    • I honestly do believe that the Reach does belong to the Forsworn. They have been there longer then anyone else anyways. Sure the Dwemer and even the first human culture were there before them but honestly after centuries and so many wars to keep their Right to the Reach, The Forsworn should honestly keep it and I wish we could of done more with them in Skyrim for I honestly do sympathy with them and their people and culture. The only reason I think we end up fighting them is because they are technically Daedra Worshippers, they work with Hagravens, and we dont really have any chances except in Sidna Mine to work with them.

      If the next game is in Highrock I hope we can work with the Reachmen of the Skyrim-Highrock Border. I also think there is a small pocket of Reachmen in the northeast portion of Hammerfell as well.

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    • If The Reach was occupied by the forsworn then they would constantly be in conflict with whichever power ruling over Skyrim.

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    • Unless Skyrim Balkanizes or the Forsworn make a form of alliance with their Fellow Reachmen in Highrock but like either of those are ever going to happen.

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    • You know what IS likely to happen?

      High Rock taking the entire Reach back from Skyrim, cutting Skyrim off from its precious Silver mines in Markarth.

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    • That does seem like something that could happen. In canon the Skyrim Civil War could still happen long after Alduin is defeated since in all ES games all side quests and Guild Missions are not technically canon. They could of happened but in the grand scheme of things they are not important.

      So that means the Dragonborn does not choose a side and the Civil War keeps going for Aedra and Daedra knows how long. So I could imagine Highrock who at this time I imagine is needing to mildly expand since they are in the corner and only have a small border with Hammerfell as well, they could quickly invade Markarth and take it for themselves tho I daught the Forsworn will even wish to be under the Rule of the Bretons. They may share the same blood more or less but Forsworn are still Reachmen and Reachmen are still mildly abused in Highrock for their beliefs and their tribalistic style. If you dont believe me on that then look at how the Orcs in Breton territory have been treated as well.

      The Forsworn will possibly still rebel but the Bretons are known for having Duchies and such so I can imagine maybe the Reach being made a protectorate or something to convince the Forsworn to accept the rule of The Kingdom of Highrock.

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    • Except the Bretons are at each other's throats like they've been for most of history. The only time they weren't was during the Interregnum (likely contrived for story purposes) and that was a lightning in a bottle fluke that's unlikely to repeat again.

      Correction: While High Rock isn't currently in a multi-sided civil war post-dragonbreak, they're still 5 different kingdoms each struggling for control of the country. In either case, they're not taking land away from anyone anytime soon.

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    • Really? I thought it was the Redguards who were in a giant unending civil war between the two houses?

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    • Phantasys wrote:
      Except the Bretons are at each other's throats in a multi-sided civil war like they've been for most of history. The only time they weren't killing one another was during the Interregnum (likely contrived for story purposes) and that was a lightning in a bottle fluke that's unlikely to repeat again.

      Definitely not true during the Fourth Era. I'd like to see some hard evidence of this going on during 4E201.

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    • I really don't. Obviously Ulfric treated them badly, but when I see the body of "Captive (Skyrim)", an innocent girl, in the lake, I have no pity for the Forsworn, who are automatically hostile to the Dragonborn anyway.

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    • Fourth Era High Rock is still 5 different kingdoms each claiming rulership of the nation. They're not the complete shitshow they were before, but the province remains a powderkeg even after the Dragonbreak. 

      I do have to amend my statement though, High Rock is not in open conflict with itself but they're still nowhere near stable enough to act as a cohesive nation to pose a threat to any other area of Tamriel. 

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    • Phantasys wrote:
      Fourth Era High Rock is still 5 different kingdoms each claiming rulership of the nation. They're not the complete shitshow they were before, but the province remains a powderkeg even after the Dragonbreak. 

      I do have to amend my statement though, High Rock is not in open conflict with itself but they're still nowhere near stable enough to act as a cohesive nation to pose a threat to any other area of Tamriel. 

      Wrong. The source you're using (likely just the High Rock page on this site, not the actual lore-book sources) clearly needs to be updated a bit.

      Right now in the Fourth Era, there are only 3 Kingdoms; Daggerfall, Northpoint, & Evermore.

      Wayrest fell to corsairs in 4E188, and its territory likely absorbed by other kingdoms. Source: Cicero's Journal, vol. 2 

      Daggerfall united with Camlorn through marriage, creating a single large kingdom territory spanning the whole western portion of High Rock (and this was back in the Third Era).

      Orsinium no longer exists [within the bounds of High Rock] due to being destroyed back in 4E11~15. Source: Infernal City (novel) ~ The newest incarnation of Orsinium is now located on the border between Hammerfell and Skyrim.

      You are still unintentionally suggesting a state of stability.  Minor skirmishes don't prevent the nation of High Rock from acting on greater interests such as supporting the Empire. They are a major threat to the Stormcloaks' control of Skyrim as long as they keep on refusing to send them aid like Ulfric wants.

      (EDIT): And, if I remember my High Rock history correctly, the multitude of fractious kingdoms (lack of unity) didn't stop the Bretons from halting the Camoran Usurper's invasion. Say what you will about "lack of stability"; the Bretons are clearly far more capable of cohesion in warfare than the Nords when they want to be.  It's too often that otherwise-overwhelming forces underestimate the Bretons.

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    • I am glad to see someone with a deep knowledge about Highrock. Now tell me about Hammerfell. I want to know what the main character of Redguard has been up to on his island.

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    • TrollDragonborn wrote:
      I am glad to see someone with a deep knowledge about Highrock. Now tell me about Hammerfell. I want to know what the main character of Redguard has been up to on his island.

      I don't necessarily have what you might call "deep" knowledge of High Rock (unless you're being sarcastic; lol). I just got all this information from three sources along with the common-sense deduction that 4th Era High Rock, at least in the current year, isn't going to be in the same situation that it was earlier on or in the 3rd Era.

      I know quite a bit about Hammerfell, but less about Stros M'Kai specifically. I do know that the main character of Redguard (Cyrus) lived in the late 2nd Era... so he's most-likely not going to be around.

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    • I know this is a Forsworn discussion page but I have to ask, what is the real reason why the Crowns and the Forebears fighting? I know it has very deep roots that go back all the way to when they first landed on Tamriel but I am curious.

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    • TrollDragonborn wrote:
      I know this is a Forsworn discussion page but I have to ask, what is the real reason why the Crowns and the Forebears fighting? I know it has very deep roots that go back all the way to when they first landed on Tamriel but I am curious.

      Well, if I had to guess, it's due to their fundamental disagreements on whether they should interact/trade with foreign powers.

      As far as I can claim to know: The whole reason why the Crowns (the more traditional "fundamentalists"; descendants of nobility) & Forebears (the more adaptable "progressives"; descendants of warriors) fought a civil war during Cyrus' time is because of the former's fierce resistance against the Empire & the latter's approval of the Imperials' strength and customs.

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    • Oh OK. I had only heard a little about why they were fighting and even what I heard was not very much explained. I thought it was because of something like them not agreeing on which House should rule Hammerfell or something like that. Thank you for telling me this as now it gives me a much more interesting outlook on Hammerfell.

      Once again I know this is a Forsworn Discussion page and you probilly dont want to awenser my questions all day long but this is the last question I have, are there any other groups on the political scene of Hammerfell or other groups that either try to stay neutral when it comes to the Crowns and Forebears?

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    • TrollDragonborn wrote: Oh OK. I had only heard a little about why they were fighting and even what I heard was not very much explained. I thought it was because of something like them not agreeing on which House should rule Hammerfell or something like that. Thank you for telling me this as now it gives me a much more interesting outlook on Hammerfell.

      Once again I know this is a Forsworn Discussion page and you probilly dont want to awenser my questions all day long but this is the last question I have, are there any other groups on the political scene of Hammerfell or other groups that either try to stay neutral when it comes to the Crowns and Forebears?

      No. It was just them. Cyrus (Redguard) is dead, but after his victory over Amiel Richton, I believe he became a mercenary.

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    • TrollDragonborn wrote:

      ...but this is the last question I have, are there any other groups on the political scene of Hammerfell or other groups that either try to stay neutral when it comes to the Crowns and Forebears?

      Yes, indeed there are. They are the "Lhotunics" and the Alik'r Nomads.

      The Lhotunics are the most-recently formed political group in Hammerfell (founded by King Lhotun in the late 3rd Era after he ascended to the throne in Sentinel; following the "Warp in the West" event that affected the entire Illiac Bay region). In contrast to the Crowns and Forebears, the Lhotunics are the balanced "moderates", having reverence for the Redguards' Yokudan past while respecting the Imperial ways. Unfortunately, this balanced approach has earned them contempt from both the Crowns and Forebears.

      "Alik'r Nomad" is self-explanatory; they are Redguards who've deliberately chosen to wander the inhospitable Alik'r Desert in self-imposed harsh tests of survival. They value strength and the struggle for survival above all else. Some have been employed by other political figures of Hammerfell as mercenaries, but apparently only when the safety [and sovereignty] of their home province as a whole is threatened.

      Currently, it is unknown if the Lhotunics are still around as a functioning party in the 4th Era, but it IS known that Alik'r warriors were responsible for helping drive back the Dominion/Thalmor (forces that invaded Hammerfell during the Great War) across the Alik'r Desert; picking them off little by little until the Dominion was ultimately forced to sign the Second Treaty of Stros M'Kai.

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    • CatholicPrincess15 wrote:
      Not in The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Redguard, though.

      True, but his last question wasn't specifically regarding that game.

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    • I thought it was.

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    • CatholicPrincess15 wrote:
      I thought it was.

      His initial questions were, and then I told him that Cyrus lived in the late 2nd Era. He's not likely to somehow still be alive in the 4th Era.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:

      You are still unintentionally suggesting a state of stability.  Minor skirmishes don't prevent the nation of High Rock from acting on greater interests such as supporting the Empire. They are a major threat to the Stormcloaks' control of Skyrim as long as they keep on refusing to send them aid like Ulfric wants.

      (EDIT): And, if I remember my High Rock history correctly, the multitude of fractious kingdoms (lack of unity) didn't stop the Bretons from halting the Camoran Usurper's invasion. Say what you will about "lack of stability"; the Bretons are clearly far more capable of cohesion in warfare than the Nords when they want to be.  It's too often that otherwise-overwhelming forces underestimate the Bretons.

      That's ridiculous. The Bretons have never won a major conflict with another nation in history. Fighting off the Camoran Usurper's invasion isn't a feat for High Rock because multiple nations were involved in the conflict. On top of that, Kaltos Camoran also fought with High Rock in the deciding battles, the Usurper's forces were divided amongst themselves.

      Even accounting for High Rock's (lack of) military proficiency, there's also the fact that High Rock bretons consider the Forsworn savages the same way the Nords do. Remember, it's still a faction that sided with Molag Bal and regularly performs human sacrifices. On top of all that, the Reachmen's invasion of High Rock is what caused the Daggerfall Covenant to form in the first place. 

      Given High Rock's last war against Skyrim, War of Bend'r-Mahk, ended in Skyrim fighting Hammerfall with High Rock being a bit player in the events... a war against Skyrim would end badly for them. You say that High Rock would be all gung-ho about supporting the Empire, but Camoran himself was seen as a liberator from the empire himself and very well supported among the population too... it's pretty much certain that High Rock would be divided on this issue like they were about literally every other issue in history.

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    • Phantasys wrote: That's ridiculous. The Bretons have never won a major conflict with another nation in history. Fighting off the Camoran Usurper's invasion isn't a feat for High Rock because multiple nations were involved in the conflict. On top of that, Kaltos Camoran also fought with High Rock in the deciding battles, the Usurper's forces were divided amongst themselves.

      Even accounting for High Rock's (lack of) military proficiency, there's also the fact that High Rock bretons consider the Forsworn savages the same way the Nords do. Remember, it's still a faction that sided with Molag Bal and regularly performs human sacrifices. On top of all that, the Reachmen's invasion of High Rock is what caused the Daggerfall Covenant to form in the first place. 

      Given High Rock's last war against Skyrim, War of Bend'r-Mahk, ended in Skyrim fighting Hammerfall with High Rock being a bit player in the events... a war against Skyrim would end badly for them. You say that High Rock would be all gung-ho about supporting the Empire, but Camoran himself was seen as a liberator from the empire himself and very well supported among the population too... it's pretty much certain that High Rock would be divided on this issue like they were about literally every other issue in history.

      And? You could also argue that the Dunmer/Chimer & Redguards (Crowns) have technically never won a major conflict with another nation [on their own] either; The Battle of Red Mountain = the Chimer required the aid of the Dwemer, and The Sack of Orsinium = The Redguards required the Bretons' help to defeat the Orcs. Does that somehow diminish their accomplishments? I hope not. Because technically even the Argonians required the Hists' help to prevent a Daedric invasion of Black Marsh during the Oblivion Crisis. And (slightly off-topic), contrary to popular belief, the Argonians lost their later invasion of southern Morrowind due to Redoran warriors pushing them back.

      Technically, the Bretons have defeated a rival nation in a major conflict all on their own (High Rock defeated Cyrodiil in 1E2305), but they've never needed to. All the same, they should not be underestimated, nor would taking the Reach back from Stormcloak control actually be too difficult for them.

      How do you know High Rock has a "lack" of military proficiency when there are various Knightly Orders, and your own previous insinuation of there still being various rival Kingdoms vying for control of the province? And then there's your admittance of the Reachmen being defeated.  That would qualify as a major conflict, considering the threat that the Reachmen posed toward both High Rock and Skyrim.

      And yet there's the claim by Skyrim that the lands it took from Hammerfell and High Rock were lost to them in previous wars; meaning that High Rock actually did defeat Skyrim at some past point. The War of the Bend'r-Mahk itself wasn't ultimately the doing of Skyrim, High Rock, or Hammerfell either; as it occurred during the Imperial Simulacrum period, it was all manipulated by both Jagar Tharn & Pergan Asuul in order to create an Umbra' Keth ("Shadow of Conflict"). The more conflict, the better.

      And according to dialogue straight from Ulfric Stormcloak's own mouth: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire." (under "Conversations"/"potential allies")

      Really, there's no way around this.  High Rock is a major threat to the Stormcloaks, and the fact that they halted the Camoran Usurper can't be discounted, regardless of who else participated against his forces.

      There are only 3 major kingdoms left in High Rock right now, and one of them holds most of the power. And they most-likely have an Imperial Legion stationed in the province too.

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      Phantasys wrote: That's ridiculous. The Bretons have never won a major conflict with another nation in history. Fighting off the Camoran Usurper's invasion isn't a feat for High Rock because multiple nations were involved in the conflict. On top of that, Kaltos Camoran also fought with High Rock in the deciding battles, the Usurper's forces were divided amongst themselves.

      Even accounting for High Rock's (lack of) military proficiency, there's also the fact that High Rock bretons consider the Forsworn savages the same way the Nords do. Remember, it's still a faction that sided with Molag Bal and regularly performs human sacrifices. On top of all that, the Reachmen's invasion of High Rock is what caused the Daggerfall Covenant to form in the first place. 

      Given High Rock's last war against Skyrim, War of Bend'r-Mahk, ended in Skyrim fighting Hammerfall with High Rock being a bit player in the events... a war against Skyrim would end badly for them. You say that High Rock would be all gung-ho about supporting the Empire, but Camoran himself was seen as a liberator from the empire himself and very well supported among the population too... it's pretty much certain that High Rock would be divided on this issue like they were about literally every other issue in history.

      And? You could also argue that the Dunmer/Chimer & Redguards (Crowns) have technically never won a major conflict with another nation [on their own] either; The Battle of Red Mountain = the Chimer required the aid of the Dwemer, and The Sack of Orsinium = The Redguards required the Bretons' help to defeat the Orcs. Does that somehow diminish their accomplishments? I hope not. Because technically even the Argonians required the Hists' help to prevent a Daedric invasion of Black Marsh during the Oblivion Crisis. And (slightly off-topic), contrary to popular belief, the Argonians lost their later invasion of southern Morrowind due to Redoran warriors pushing them back.

      Technically, the Bretons have defeated a rival nation in a major conflict all on their own (High Rock defeated Cyrodiil in 1E2305), but they've never needed to. All the same, they should not be underestimated, nor would taking the Reach back from Stormcloak control actually be too difficult for them.

      How do you know High Rock has a "lack" of military proficiency when there are various Knightly Orders, and your own previous insinuation of there still being various rival Kingdoms vying for control of the province? And then there's your admittance of the Reachmen being defeated.  That would qualify as a major conflict, considering the threat that the Reachmen posed toward both High Rock and Skyrim.

      And yet there's the claim by Skyrim that the lands it took from Hammerfell and High Rock were lost to them in previous wars; meaning that High Rock actually did defeat Skyrim at some past point. The War of the Bend'r-Mahk itself wasn't ultimately the doing of Skyrim, High Rock, or Hammerfell either; as it occurred during the Imperial Simulacrum period, it was all manipulated by both Jagar Tharn & Pergan Asuul in order to create an Umbra' Keth ("Shadow of Conflict"). The more conflict, the better.

      And according to dialogue straight from Ulfric Stormcloak's own mouth: "I suppose we shouldn't be surprised. They've never had many problems with the Empire." (under "Conversations"/"potential allies")

      Really, there's no way around this.  High Rock is a major threat to the Stormcloaks, and the fact that they halted the Camoran Usurper can't be discounted, regardless of who else participated against his forces.

      There are only 3 major kingdoms left in High Rock right now, and one of them holds most of the power. And they most-likely have an Imperial Legion stationed in the province too.

      We are talking about the forces of High Rock, by itself, against a nation that almost conquered all of Tamriel by itself. Merely being able to hide behind a fort until the invaders gave up like they did against Cyrodil is nowhere near enough. High Rock has never been and is not in the same military weight class as Skyrim is.  Edit: Also, the Redgaurds have won conflicts by themselves, Hammerfall alone managed to defeat the Aldemeri Dominion and forced them at sword point into the Second Treaty of Stros-M'kai. The Chimer's success at the Battle of Red mountain was more of a victory in a three way rather than having the Dwemeri help. Off topic here, but it's really stupid how Jurgen Windcaller decided using the Thu'um for war was against the will of the gods when the avatar of the King of the Nordic Gods himself was leading them in that battle! How do you equate acting on direct orders from your god's mouthpiece to defying him?

      High Rock having various knightly orders is insignificant due to the fact the cultures of the two nations are vastly different. Almost every family in Skyrim produces warriors, a much greater proportion of a bigger nation are of fighting capacity. Meanwhile, High Rock is a culture and nation of merchants and tradesmen. Their strength is in economics and wealth, not in military might. Having knightly orders just means they have a standing military, not much else. Defending a well positioned fort is quite a different ball game than trying to invade and keep territory. Which, I remind you, has never been something High Rock was remotely competent in.

      Also what are you talking about the reachmen posing a threat to both Skyrim and High Rock? Skyrim was being invaded by the Akaviri, not the Reachmen. Also the invading Reachmen weren't exactly a military nation or anything. They were one particular tribe whose chieftan married into the Tharn family and gaining some degree of imperial legitimacy. Defeating them who were ravaging a mostly civilian countryside of divided small kingdoms isn't significant, if anything it shows just how incompetent High Rock really is. One measly tribe was able to nearly defeat the whole nation of High Rock! Meanwhile, the whole of the reachmen population with innumerable tribes aren't even able to pose a true military threat to one single hold in Skyrim. The Daggerfall Covenant is another tell of the military weakness of the Bretons. The main fighters of the Covenant were the Redguards and Orcs, the Bretons merely managed to string them both along

      You're claiming that High Rock must have defeated Skyrim at one point because Skyrim took back their territory. Except it wasn't always Bretons that controlled High Rock. It's even stated that the Direnni were the ones that took advantage of Skyrim's war of succession in order to capture those areas . High Rock ceased to be a major player after the fall of Clan Direnni. They're two different incarnations of High Rock and it's disingenuous to compare the two.

      Tharn manipulations or not, it change the fact that once put to the test, High Rock was swept aside as an afterthought and Skyrim went on to defeat both them and Hammerfall.

      Ulfric is right. High Rock has never been prone to openly rebelling against the Empire (which a support of a neighbor's independence would constitute). But they're more than willing to sit by and let someone else split them from it as seen during the Camoran conflict before Camoran decided to do classic villain things. High Rock would hold an official neutrailty on the surface but there would undoubtedly be both pro-imperial and pro-freedom factions within the kingdoms.

      Really, the thought of High Rock posing a military threat to Skyrim is laughable. You can try to spin it however you like but the fact remains that their military history speaks for itself. They've never been a heavy hitter and are only competent when they've got a near impenetrable fortress to use when fighting a defensive war in which victory only means not being taken over.

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    • Just to pop in again, I believe that with the right pieces in place and the right time which I am going to say is the Skyrim Civil War. I believe that one of the High Rock Factions could prove to use the civil war to their advantage. I am not saying that the Faction must go into full on war, but use the civil war as a chance to quickly grab territory. Big or small and quickly back out.

      Sure this may not be possibility if we think about it but it is just a idea since I am thinking political here. Too much Hearts Of Iron 4 I suppose. LOL

      Anyways lets switch back to some wholesome Forsworn discussion.

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    • Phantasys wrote: We are talking about the forces of High Rock, by itself, against a nation that almost conquered all of Tamriel by itself. Merely being able to hide behind a fort until the invaders gave up like they did against Cyrodil is nowhere near enough. High Rock has never been and is not in the same military weight class as Skyrim is.  Edit: Also, the Redgaurds have won conflicts by themselves, Hammerfall alone managed to defeat the Aldemeri Dominion and forced them at sword point into the Second Treaty of Stros-M'kai. The Chimer's success at the Battle of Red mountain was more of a victory in a three way rather than having the Dwemeri help. Off topic here, but it's really stupid how Jurgen Windcaller decided using the Thu'um for war was against the will of the gods when the avatar of the King of the Nordic Gods himself was leading them in that battle! How do you equate acting on direct orders from your god's mouthpiece to defying him?

      High Rock having various knightly orders is insignificant due to the fact the cultures of the two nations are vastly different. Almost every family in Skyrim produces warriors, a much greater proportion of a bigger nation are of fighting capacity. Meanwhile, High Rock is a culture and nation of merchants and tradesmen. Their strength is in economics and wealth, not in military might. Having knightly orders just means they have a standing military, not much else. Defending a well positioned fort is quite a different ball game than trying to invade and keep territory. Which, I remind you, has never been something High Rock was remotely competent in.

      Also what are you talking about the reachmen posing a threat to both Skyrim and High Rock? Skyrim was being invaded by the Akaviri, not the Reachmen. Also the invading Reachmen weren't exactly a military nation or anything. They were one particular tribe whose chieftan married into the Tharn family and gaining some degree of imperial legitimacy. Defeating them who were ravaging a mostly civilian countryside of divided small kingdoms isn't significant, if anything it shows just how incompetent High Rock really is. One measly tribe was able to nearly defeat the whole nation of High Rock! Meanwhile, the whole of the reachmen population with innumerable tribes aren't even able to pose a true military threat to one single hold in Skyrim. The Daggerfall Covenant is another tell of the military weakness of the Bretons. The main fighters of the Covenant were the Redguards and Orcs, the Bretons merely managed to string them both along

      You're claiming that High Rock must have defeated Skyrim at one point because Skyrim took back their territory. Except it wasn't always Bretons that controlled High Rock. It's even stated that the Direnni were the ones that took advantage of Skyrim's war of succession in order to capture those areas . High Rock ceased to be a major player after the fall of Clan Direnni. They're two different incarnations of High Rock and it's disingenuous to compare the two.

      Tharn manipulations or not, it change the fact that once put to the test, High Rock was swept aside as an afterthought and Skyrim went on to defeat both them and Hammerfall.

      Ulfric is right. High Rock has never been prone to openly rebelling against the Empire (which a support of a neighbor's independence would constitute). But they're more than willing to sit by and let someone else split them from it as seen during the Camoran conflict before Camoran decided to do classic villain things. High Rock would hold an official neutrailty on the surface but there would undoubtedly be both pro-imperial and pro-freedom factions within the kingdoms.

      Really, the thought of High Rock posing a military threat to Skyrim is laughable. You can try to spin it however you like but the fact remains that their military history speaks for itself. They've never been a heavy hitter and are only competent when they've got a near impenetrable fortress to use when fighting a defensive war in which victory only means not being taken over.

      You're definitely exaggerating the conquests of Skyrim during the time of its "First Empire of Man", because High Rock and ancient Resdayn do not constitute as "most" of Tamriel, all sources agree that the Nords were defeated at Red Mountain and never actually "conquered" Resdayn, and their "conquest" of northern Cyrodiil was actually an alliance. It's also clear that this Empire lasted merely 174 years before falling apart. It's pretty clear High Rock has been in Skyrim's weight-class if they managed to defeat it once before, considering Skyrim's claims for taking territory in the War of the Bend'r-Mahk.

      Nice to see you admit that High Rock has a standing military; that's really all that's needed here.  And hey, if invading and keeping territory (particularly the latter) was something the Bretons weren't good at, then they never would've lasted after successfully usurping control from both the Direnni and the Nords.

      I see you denying the Reachmen as being a legitimate threat to both High Rock and Skyrim, and yet particularly for Skyrim, the Markarth Incident was an actual thing, and the Reachmen continue to be a problem in the region for Skyrim.  And, if you help the Forsworn escape Cidhna Mine during the related quest, the Forsworn make short work of all the Nord Guardsmen (regardless of whether the guards are Imperial or Stormcloak-aligned).  Moving onto using your logic about the Daggerfall Covenant?; Then it's obvious the Ebonheart Pact and Aldmeri Dominion were signs of "military weakness" in Nords and all other Races.

      This has absolutely nothing to do with the Direnni. I'm saying that High Rock must have defeated Skyrim at some point because it clearly claims the latter "lost the lands in previous wars", and because the Direnni were never specially mentioned in the War of the Bend'r-Mahk event. Not to also mention that [the Reachmen weren't even a concept in the lore at the time the 2004 "Shadowkey" side-game was released]. Since that has never been retconned, there's two things you're dodging here; 1.) There's no reason to believe that the Bretons of High Rock didn't win a previous war with Skyrim. OR 2.) The Bretons are a much greater threat than you personally want to believe.

      Skyrim "defeated" them; but this was only due to infighting that plagued High Rock for 30 years which culminated in a 3-year war in Betony, and cultural divide between Crowns & Forebears in Hammerfell. Then the lands "conquered" by Skyrim were immediately relinquished following the end of the Imperial Simulacrum. So much for conquest, eh?

      "As seen during the Camoran conflict" ~ It's time to finally bury this, because you've been dealing in an untruth; the reason High Rock was initially lax was due to a combination of numerous factors, the two most important being that 1.) They were upset that the current Emperor was neither a Breton nor spent his childhood in High Rock (as all other Septim Emperors supposedly did before) and 2.) The rulers of certain kingdoms were either inept or in contention for the throne with another candidate.  I'm well aware that you're going to bring up the "Eight Traitors" point, but that's rendered moot by the fact that a certain Baron quickly changed the common perception with news of the Usurper's barbaric deeds.  Whatever your silly point here is, the fact is that the Bretons' disappointment with the reigning Emperor never lasted long enough to make a difference in High Rock's overall favorable perception of the Empire.

      High Rock posing a real military threat to Skyrim is fact, regardless of what you believe; especially since Skyrim is recently growing weaker and weaker, ironically due to Ulfric Stormcloak's influence.

      (Addendum): I mean, you can deny High Rock's capability all you want, but there's no denying the fact that there being 3 Kingdoms in High Rock means more solidly unified military forces (knightly orders or otherwise), and the high possibility of an Imperial Legion maintaining a presence in the province. The rising fear of Bretons invading Skyrim is palpable, in a kind of karmic payback, if the Stormcloaks "win" the Civil War; and another Imperial Legion near Skyrim's southern border is also poised to wipe out what's left of the "freedom-fighters".

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    • To sum up your arguments: conjecture based on your own biases with emphasis on ignoring solid evidence and using disengenuous interpretations of existing lore to justify your points.

      Your assertions of an imperial legion are laughable as they're entirely the result of your own headcanon, a step down from the reasonings you've used up to this point as even they've only been mostly based on headcanon.

      You can believe what you want, but actual evidence and past history states otherwise.

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    • Phantasys wrote:
      To sum up your arguments: conjecture based on your own biases with emphasis on ignoring solid evidence and using disengenuous interpretations of existing lore to justify your points.

      Your assertions of an imperial legion are laughable as they're entirely the result of your own headcanon, a step down from the reasonings you've used up to this point as even they've only been mostly based on headcanon.

      You can believe what you want, but actual evidence and past history states otherwise.

      That is exactly what your arguments are based on as well, by your own logic and ignoring any evidence I provided. Hello pot, my name's kettle, you're black. I can call your own interpretations disingenuous, and be just as correct.

      And it's just as laughable that you believe it's my own headcanon when Imperial Legions have been stationed in provinces outside of Cyrodiil in the past.  A "step down" would be assuming that Cyrodiil's (Colovia's) own armies would help them.

      And I mirror your "you can believe what you want", because actual evidence and past history proves you wrong.

      Congratulations. You've made NO progress!!! :D

      (Addendum): In other words, it looks like you have nothing more to say. Your counterarguments were a waste of time.

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    • I made a bad decision talking about Highrock itself and asking questions...it has led to a fight. Call the Imperial City Guards! AKA admins who can break this up with a small slap on the wrists.

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    • TrollDragonborn wrote:
      I made a bad decision talking about Highrock itself and asking questions...it has led to a fight. Call the Imperial City Guards! AKA admins who can break this up with a small slap on the wrists.

      Don't worry too much about it. At least you talked about High Rock, which is part of where the Reachmen/Forsworn live.

      My opponent just hasn't realized that his perspective is just as subjective as mine is.

      In any case, did you want to ask/talk about anything else related to the Forsworn?

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    • TrollDragonborn wrote:
      I made a bad decision talking about Highrock itself and asking questions...it has led to a fight. Call the Imperial City Guards! AKA admins who can break this up with a small slap on the wrists.

      Not your fault, opinionated people like us will never agree and end up fighting with no end ever. There are enough gaps in information about what happens in between major events that you could come up with any number of somewhat plausible hypotheses. 

      Anyway, to get back on track with the topic, the Forsworn are evil and siding with them is like running with scissors. It's a terrible idea and if you let them continue doing what they're doing... they're probably going to summon Molag Bal or something. This isn't an issue of cultural clashing, this is an issue of Daedra worshippers who perform human sacrifices and would absolutely welcome an invading Daedric army with open arms.

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    • OK I understand now. But yeah one last Question about Highrock, do we know if there is a drastic diffrence between the Reachmen of Highrock and the Reachmen of Skyrim? I know that some of the rebelling Reachmen like to be called Forsworn but what are the other names of diffrent Reachmen groups. Also what are the relations between Reachmen and Orcs of Highrock? I know everyone is pretty much against the orcs but has there ever been a time where the two looked at each other and did the good old tactic of The Enemy Of My Enemy?

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    • There may well be a difference between the Reachmen in different parts of the Reach, as they're not solely of Breton descent; some may have Orcish ancestry, and others may have Nordic ancestry (though comparatively weak due to the fall of the First Empire of the Nords; Nord colonists were wiped out from the area), but they are all "of Breton stock".

      I should probably add (while not totally relevant to your question) that the "Western Reach" is not only separated from the Reach by the political boundaries of High Rock & Skyrim, but the literal physical boundary of the Druadach Mountains (which also separates the entire region from Hammerfell).

      As for the names of other Reachmen groups? There was the 2nd Era Reachmen dynasty known as the "Longhouse Emperors", though that was very short-lived (2E541~577; 36 years). The only other named Reachmen group I can think of is the "Winterborn", which tried to usurp control of Wrothgar (the Wrothgarian Mountains) from the Orcs.

      I would guess that relations between Reachmen and Orcs could be determined as "fairly neutral" throughout history. At one point, they must've been on friendly terms, because the Reachmen did conduct trade with Orcs in the past, and apparently learned "hedge-magic" from them as well.  At least one time, as mentioned in the previous paragraph, they also fought the Orcs for territorial control (but that's likely an isolated incident because that was just a single clan of Reachmen rather than a united people).

      Has there ever been a time when Reachmen and Orcs united against a common foe, however? I would say "No".

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    • TrollDragonborn wrote: I made a bad decision talking about Highrock itself and asking questions...it has led to a fight. Call the Imperial City Guards! AKA admins who can break this up with a small slap on the wrists.

      It's not your fault. The wiki has been a little argumentative lately.

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    • CatholicPrincess15 wrote:

      TrollDragonborn wrote: I made a bad decision talking about Highrock itself and asking questions...it has led to a fight. Call the Imperial City Guards! AKA admins who can break this up with a small slap on the wrists.

      It's not your fault. The wiki has been a little argumentative lately.

      Admittedly, yes it has. :P

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    • I turned into an orcwolf and ate his heart, so no. F those guys.

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    • 75.97.213.237 wrote:
      I turned into an orcwolf and ate his heart, so no. F those guys.

      lol

      I wonder how Forsworn NPCs and Orc Stronghold NPCs would react to each other in-game...

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    • Ifnsman wrote:
      75.97.213.237 wrote:
      I turned into an orcwolf and ate his heart, so no. F those guys.
      lol

      I wonder how Forsworn NPCs and Orc Stronghold NPCs would react to each other in-game...

      Probably with axes and arrows.

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    • Bilitis wrote:
      Ifnsman wrote:
      75.97.213.237 wrote:
      I turned into an orcwolf and ate his heart, so no. F those guys.
      lol

      I wonder how Forsworn NPCs and Orc Stronghold NPCs would react to each other in-game...

      Probably with axes and arrows.

      I wanna see that though, it could be a sidequest! "T'he siege of <insert orc stronghold here>"

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    • A FANDOM user
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