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Feb 06 03:44:14 <Knives182> Hello, are Deyvid & Rosenrot there?
Feb 06 03:44:43 <Rosenrot87> hi
Feb 06 03:44:57 <Knives182> hello
Feb 06 03:45:29 <Rosenrot87> i've noticed some of the changes you've been doing regarding categories
Feb 06 03:45:40 <Knives182> indeed
Feb 06 03:45:43 <Rosenrot87> less is not necessarily better in these circumstances
Feb 06 03:46:05 <Rosenrot87> furthermore, you've done some pretty large changes, did you ask any admins if it was alright to do so?
Feb 06 03:47:13 <Knives182> no, I've been doing that for quite a while now...no admins took any issue w/ it until now
Feb 06 03:47:27 <Knives182> maybe i should start a forum thread about the purpose of our categories?
Feb 06 03:48:21 <Knives182> many of are pages are just really cluttered w/ cats currently, & w/ the more specific cats beign subcategories of the larger ones, I don't understand what the purpose is of having the whole hierarchy attached to every article
Feb 06 03:48:26 <Knives182> our* pages
Feb 06 03:48:54 <Rosenrot87> well, if we were to go by the logic you posted on my talk page, then we shouldn't categorise an NPC from skyrim as Characters and Skyrim: Characters
Feb 06 03:49:07 <Knives182> correct
Feb 06 03:49:12 <Deyvid|Deleting> I believe it was the express opinion of community members to add pages to both the trunk and the branches, as it were.
Feb 06 03:49:22 <Rosenrot87> yet when i first started adding pages to categories i was advised i definitely should do so
Feb 06 03:49:30 <Deyvid|Deleting> For those who aren't sure which game the topic falls under.
Feb 06 03:49:39 <Deyvid|Deleting> Or for those who wish to see a complete list.
Feb 06 03:49:57 <Rosenrot87> and those that wish to see ones from all game
Feb 06 03:49:58 <Deyvid|Deleting> For example, a glass breastplate in Skyrim, would receive Armor and Skyrim: Armor
Feb 06 03:50:30 <Knives182> yeah, i understand
Feb 06 03:51:15 <Knives182> obv i feel doing it different would be better, but if I'd known this was set in stone, I would have started a thread about it or something
Feb 06 03:51:29 <Knives182> I just figured no one really had a rule about cats here as a lot of stuff is kinda loose around here
Feb 06 03:51:36 <Knives182> compared to my experience on other wikis
Feb 06 03:51:40 <Rosenrot87> which is what i've been setting about to fixing
Feb 06 03:51:46 <Rosenrot87> i've been reordering them
Feb 06 03:52:09 <Knives182> yeah, like i said glad to see someone esle taking an interest
Feb 06 03:52:41 <Rosenrot87> some on here call me the Category Queen xP
Feb 06 03:52:47 * Deyvid|Deleting has quit (Connection reset by peer)
Feb 06 03:52:57 <Rosenrot87> aww
Feb 06 03:52:57 <Knives182> so do you guys actually feel lattaching them all to each article is better, or r u just going by the group consensus
Feb 06 03:55:17 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Having skimmed the conversation, and knowing what's been going on, I agree with Rosenrot87.
Feb 06 03:55:18 <Rosenrot87> well when tim taught me how to edit he told me that pages need to have well... for example an female dunmer NPC from the game Oblivion should have Characters, Oblivion: Characters, Females, Oblivion: Females, Dunmer, Oblivion: Dunmer
Feb 06 03:55:28 <Rosenrot87> and whichever faction(s) they belong to
Feb 06 03:55:36 <Rosenrot87> if they are merchants
Feb 06 03:55:39 <Rosenrot87> or trainers
Feb 06 03:55:41 <Rosenrot87> etc
Feb 06 03:55:53 <Rosenrot87> quest givers
Feb 06 03:56:02 <Knives182> okay, so i guess the question is what is there to be gained from having females & oblivion:females
Feb 06 03:56:02 <HaLo2FrEeEk> More categories is better, to a point, but the more we can categorize our pages, the more likely they are to be (easily) found.
Feb 06 03:56:38 <Rosenrot87> mhmm, otherwise people who want to find a similarly related article can find it by those categories
Feb 06 03:56:40 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Knives182: it was a general concensus with the admins and the patrollers.
Feb 06 03:57:02 <Rosenrot87> if they want to know all the females in every game they can, if they only want to find females within that game, they can
Feb 06 03:57:10 <Rosenrot87> without mucking through several pages to do so
Feb 06 03:57:11 <HaLo2FrEeEk> The character is a female, but they were also in oblivion.
Feb 06 03:57:16 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Or what she said ^^
Feb 06 03:57:19 <Rosenrot87> they just scroll down to categories
Feb 06 03:57:47 <Rosenrot87> "let's see here oh let's look at all the females in all the games i just click on the Females category down here"
Feb 06 03:58:16 <Rosenrot87> instead of "i wanna see females in all games aw crap i gotta click on Oblivion: Females cause there is no Females category linked here"
Feb 06 03:58:49 <Rosenrot87> hope that answers it sufficiently lol
Feb 06 03:59:32 <Knives182> hm
Feb 06 03:59:44 <Rosenrot87> and to be honest when i see a page with just 2 categories at the bottom i think "this wasn't categorised very well..."
Feb 06 03:59:58 <Knives182> see, when i see a page w/ 15 categories, it just looks like a confusing mess
Feb 06 04:00:31 <Knives182> i feel like the whole reason the categories are integrated into wikia w/ a hierarchical system is so that we dont have to list out every single cat 4 pages like that
Feb 06 04:00:49 <Knives182> i also dont see it as especially difficult to click on oblivion:females, then scroll to its categories & click on females
Feb 06 04:01:12 <HaLo2FrEeEk> It's not difficult, it's just an extra click, and not everyone is familiar with the subcat system
Feb 06 04:01:37 <Rosenrot87> i never said it was difficult, but like halo said
Feb 06 04:01:55 <Rosenrot87> not all wiki users are that knowledgable about subcats
Feb 06 04:02:10 <Knives182> i mean, theyre listed along w/ all the pages w/in that cat
Feb 06 04:02:14 <Knives182> if youre browsing the cat
Feb 06 04:02:23 <Knives182> youll see them just by looking through the category
Feb 06 04:02:43 * MissKeira (Timeoin@xertion-lvnapo.tpgi.com.au) has joined #TESWiki
Feb 06 04:02:43 * Akatosh gives channel half-operator status to MissKeira
Feb 06 04:02:44 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Knives182: Would it be enough to say that categories has been Rosenrot87's pet project for the last 3 weeks and every time someone (anyone) messes with the categories, she dies a little inside. She's been religious about it, seriously, she doesn't even like ME to mess with the categories.
Feb 06 04:02:49 <Rosenrot87> hey keira
Feb 06 04:03:02 <Rosenrot87> lol i do die a lil inside don't i?
Feb 06 04:03:11 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Yeah
Feb 06 04:03:21 <Rosenrot87> seriously, categories are basically all i do
Feb 06 04:03:42 <Rosenrot87> it's like my baby
Feb 06 04:03:44 * Deyvid (Deyvid@wikia/teswiki/Deyvid) has joined #TESWiki
Feb 06 04:03:45 * Akatosh sets mode +a #TESWiki Deyvid
Feb 06 04:03:45 * Akatosh gives channel operator status to Deyvid
Feb 06 04:03:49 <Rosenrot87> wb Deyvid
Feb 06 04:03:52 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Rosenrot87: on a side note, did you make that Skyrim: Staves page?
Feb 06 04:04:04 <HaLo2FrEeEk> hiya deyvid
Feb 06 04:04:05 <Rosenrot87> finishing it up, got distracted lol
Feb 06 04:04:05 <Deyvid> Thanks.
Feb 06 04:04:17 <Deyvid> Check Category:Staves
Feb 06 04:04:18 <Trixie> [WIKI]: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Category%3AStaves
Feb 06 04:04:20 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Mmk, I got a few minutes before I publish anything.
Feb 06 04:04:24 <Deyvid> 90% of these are Skyrim: Staves.
Feb 06 04:04:30 <Knives182> lol im not especially moved by the fact that she or any other one person "wants it a certain way"...thats not how wikis should operate. but wikis DO operate on group consensus, so as this seems to be the current soncensus, ill respect it until i can change it
Feb 06 04:04:52 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Why try to change it if it's an established method?
Feb 06 04:04:55 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Why not just let it be?
Feb 06 04:04:58 <Knives182> im planning on making a forum topic addressing categories & am just trying to get a feel for what the reasons are for the current system right now
Feb 06 04:05:32 <Rosenrot87> done
Feb 06 04:05:35 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Thank you rose
Feb 06 04:05:50 <Knives182> because i think the established method has flaws...do any of you edit on other wikis?
Feb 06 04:06:10 <Knives182> in my experience on the zelda wikia, this isn't how categories are treated
Feb 06 04:06:23 <Knives182> & that wikis in pretty good shape
Feb 06 04:06:30 <HaLo2FrEeEk> So is ours...
Feb 06 04:06:57 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Just because we don't do it like x wiki does it doesn't mean it's wrong.
Feb 06 04:07:00 <Deyvid> I'll admit, the categorization of the wiki is a mess. This is mostly due to the OblivioWiki and Skyrim Wiki merge.
Feb 06 04:07:04 <Deyvid> We're doing our best to clean it up.
Feb 06 04:07:15 <Deyvid> And we decided that we wanted to categorize pages this way.
Feb 06 04:07:25 <Deyvid> I'm aware of how the Zelda Wiki operates; I used to edit there.
Feb 06 04:07:35 <Deyvid> But, then again, we aren't the Zelda Wiki.
Feb 06 04:07:59 <Rosenrot87> ^that
Feb 06 04:08:02 <Rosenrot87> lol
Feb 06 04:08:14 <Rosenrot87> damn tim for getting me to start doing that too
Feb 06 04:08:16 <Knives182> trying to think of how to respond, 1 moment
Feb 06 04:08:16 <Rosenrot87> lol
Feb 06 04:08:35 <Deyvid> Your opinion isn't wasted. I think it's something to that needs/deserves evaluation form more community members.
Feb 06 04:08:36 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Deyvid: Would you consider the Dragon Priest Staff (wall of flames and wall of storms) to be unique weapons?
Feb 06 04:08:56 <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, is the enchantment static across play throughs?
Feb 06 04:09:13 <Deyvid> Can it the item be found in static locations?
Feb 06 04:09:14 <Deyvid> Then, yes.
Feb 06 04:09:15 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Well yeah, but so is the one on, say, Staff of Firebolt
Feb 06 04:09:29 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I'm not sure if it can
Feb 06 04:09:44 <Deyvid> Staff of Firebolt can have different charges, magnitudes of damage, and found as randomized loot.
Feb 06 04:09:48 <Deyvid> So, it's a radiant item.
Feb 06 04:10:07 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Staff of Firebolt has a static magnitude.
Feb 06 04:10:16 <Deyvid> Previously, some of us agreed that radiant items should be redirected to Enchantment Modifiers (Skyrim)
Feb 06 04:10:19 <Knives182> obv were not the zelda wiki or any other wiki. im not saying we should do something a certain way just because someone else does. im saying i think we should categorize a certain way because of the reasons ive given, & simply pointing to a well-respected example of somewhere that does it like that
Feb 06 04:10:48 * MissKeira (Timeoin@xertion-lvnapo.tpgi.com.au) has left #TESWiki
Feb 06 04:11:10 <Knives182> & again, ill respect the current consensus, im not gonna go around rogue editing
Feb 06 04:11:21 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Knives182: As long as the right categories make it into the pages, what does it matter if its, in your opinion, over-categorized?
Feb 06 04:11:49 <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, if the enchantment magnitude is static, it deserves it's own page.
Feb 06 04:12:09 <Knives182> i just feel like you need to balance 1-click convenience w/ concisiveness
Feb 06 04:12:13 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I just meant for the sake of categories, should I put it into Unique Weapons
Feb 06 04:12:17 <Knives182> either end of the specturm is bad
Feb 06 04:12:53 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I agree. At least we're not making Destruction Weapons and Restoration Spells categories.
Feb 06 04:12:54 <Knives182> if we err to the extreme "more is better" side of everything, our pages would be jumbled messes...we obv value some level of concisiveness there
Feb 06 04:13:08 <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, how is it acquired? Is it a boss battle one-time reward?
Feb 06 04:13:52 <HaLo2FrEeEk> According to the page, it's acquired during the main quest (the wall of lightning one), the Wall of Flames one is apparently looted off of Rahgot.
Feb 06 04:14:02 <HaLo2FrEeEk> So I guess yeah, they're unique then
Feb 06 04:14:21 <Deyvid> brb Jimeee needs me.
Feb 06 04:15:50 <Knives182> i guess i just dont understand the benefit of listing both Nords & Skyrim:Nords on the same page, when anyone browsing the Nords category will see Skyrim:Nords as a subcategory, & anyone browsing Skyrim:Nords will see Nords as a parent category
Feb 06 04:16:07 <Knives182> given that, what is the point of having both on a page?
Feb 06 04:16:26 <Knives182> if anyone is actually using the categories to look at articles, theyll see any sub/parent cats
Feb 06 04:16:59 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Multiple-categorization is a keystone of navigability.
Feb 06 04:17:18 <Knives182> how so
Feb 06 04:17:20 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Also.
Feb 06 04:17:34 <Deyvid> The rationale behind this type of categorization is that readers might not be aware of which game the article they're looking for appears in.
Feb 06 04:17:37 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Nothing would be in the Skyrim: Nords category if we didn't put it on pages.
Feb 06 04:17:53 <Deyvid> For instance, they may know that Ulfric Stormcloak is a Nord, but not know from which game.
Feb 06 04:17:55 <Knives182> right, im not saying to not put it on pages
Feb 06 04:18:05 <Knives182> im saying that a norsd from skyrim only needs Skyrim:Nords, not Nords as well
Feb 06 04:18:08 <HaLo2FrEeEk> If someone wants to look at, for example, staves from JUST skyrim, they can look at Skyrim: Staves.
Feb 06 04:18:25 <Knives182> yeah, i understand that, read above
Feb 06 04:18:25 <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, what he's saying is that having Nords and Skyrim: Nords is redundant.
Feb 06 04:18:29 <HaLo2FrEeEk> However, if they want to see all staves across all games, they have the Staves cat as well.
Feb 06 04:18:31 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I know.
Feb 06 04:18:35 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I don't think it is.
Feb 06 04:19:23 <Knives182> if they dont know what game ulfric is from, all they have to do is go to his page & check his cat
Feb 06 04:19:27 <Knives182> & itll be Skyrim:Nords
Feb 06 04:19:34 <Knives182> by that logic, having both is actually more confusing for them
Feb 06 04:19:41 <Knives182> if they see the Nords cat 1st & just click on that
Feb 06 04:19:46 <Knives182> being the inexperienced user that they are
Feb 06 04:21:38 <Knives182> basically a category like Nords, similar to a category like Content, can just be a master category that only contains other categories
Feb 06 04:22:04 <Knives182> thats actually a good point...where Content & other big cats like that are concerned, were already using this system
Feb 06 04:26:25 <Knives182> like, does Azura's Star really need to be under Skyrim:Misc, Skyrim:Items, Miscellaneous, Items, Skyrim:Daedric Artifacts, Skyrim:Artifacts, Daedric Artifacts, Artifacts, Quest Items, Unique Items, Skyrim: Quest Items, Skyrim: Unique Items, & god knows what else?
Feb 06 04:26:37 <Knives182> doesn't that seem exessive to anyone?
Feb 06 04:27:06 <HaLo2FrEeEk> It doesn't need to be in either misc. cat.
Feb 06 04:27:21 <Knives182> why
Feb 06 04:27:37 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Because it doesn't.
Feb 06 04:27:50 <Knives182> ...
Feb 06 04:27:51 <Knives182> lol
Feb 06 04:27:57 <Deyvid> Another editor approached me earlier about the issue of Misc/Miscallenous.
Feb 06 04:27:58 <Knives182> thats not any kind of an answer man
Feb 06 04:28:47 * Jimeee (Jimeee@xertion-6i2.ok2.49.62.IP) has joined #TESWiki
Feb 06 04:28:53 * Akatosh gives channel operator status to Jimeee
Feb 06 04:28:54 <HaLo2FrEeEk> So now you're saying that you WANT extra categories?
Feb 06 04:28:56 <Deyvid> hey Jimeee.
Feb 06 04:28:57 <Knives182> i dont see anything wrong w/ the category...theyre items labeled as miscellaneous in-game from what i understand. but misc aside, thats 2 cats down from a list of...11
Feb 06 04:28:58 <Jimeee> omg
Feb 06 04:29:02 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Sup jimeee
Feb 06 04:29:04 <Jimeee> somehow i got through
Feb 06 04:29:18 <Jimeee> hi halo
Feb 06 04:29:27 <Jimeee> DEYVID!!!!!
Feb 06 04:29:34 <Deyvid> Let me lay down one thing really quickly.
Feb 06 04:29:34 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Awwww
Feb 06 04:29:42 <HaLo2FrEeEk> "hi halo" "DEYVID!!!!!!"
Feb 06 04:29:44 <HaLo2FrEeEk> :'(
Feb 06 04:29:47 <Rosenrot87> lol
Feb 06 04:29:47 <Deyvid> "Misc" is the official, in-game title for "junk" items.
Feb 06 04:29:48 <Jimeee> haha
Feb 06 04:29:58 <Deyvid> The category "items" uses a term we've coined.
Feb 06 04:30:05 <Jimeee> HALO!!!!!
Feb 06 04:30:08 <HaLo2FrEeEk> It's actually the record name in the data files
Feb 06 04:30:15 <HaLo2FrEeEk> JIMEEE!!!!!!!
Feb 06 04:30:24 <Jimeee> <3
Feb 06 04:30:33 <Deyvid> The argument in that situation is: should we use in-game names or ones of our own contrivance.
Feb 06 04:30:35 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Lessthanthree
Feb 06 04:30:48 <Knives182> i would think in-game wherever possible
Feb 06 04:30:49 <Deyvid> One editor expressed that the we should use our own terms. I do not agree with this.
Feb 06 04:30:55 <Jimeee> May I barge into this convo about categorisation?
Feb 06 04:30:55 <Deyvid> Agreed.
Feb 06 04:31:02 <Deyvid> By all means.
Feb 06 04:31:10 <Kaishiro> URDOIN IT WRONG
Feb 06 04:31:15 * Kaishiro vanishes
Feb 06 04:31:29 <Jimeee> I assume you ere discussing Skyrin: Items?
Feb 06 04:31:36 <Deyvid> I was, yes.
Feb 06 04:31:37 <Knives182> not really
Feb 06 04:31:43 <Knives182> thats kind of a side topic
Feb 06 04:31:44 <Deyvid> But the topic regards categories in general.
Feb 06 04:31:49 <Deyvid> ^
Feb 06 04:32:00 <Jimeee> Well cats is my favorite topic
Feb 06 04:32:12 * Rosenrot87 facedesks
Feb 06 04:32:16 <Kaishiro> I like tlaking about pussy too
Feb 06 04:32:34 <Deyvid> facepalmjesus.jpg
Feb 06 04:32:46 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Kaishiro: ME TOO!
Feb 06 04:32:46 <Knives182> im arguing that, for instance, Greta's page doesnt need coth the Nords category & the Skyrim:Nords category
Feb 06 04:32:48 <Jimeee> Right , I have read the convo Knives had on roses talk page and its an excellent point
Feb 06 04:32:50 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I have a pussy!
Feb 06 04:32:52 <Deyvid> Rosenrot87, I second that motion.
Feb 06 04:32:54 <HaLo2FrEeEk> It's black, and hairy
Feb 06 04:33:00 <Knives182> wtf dudes
Feb 06 04:33:04 <Rosenrot87> i have a different kind...
Feb 06 04:33:08 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Indeed,
Feb 06 04:33:11 <Deyvid> Agreed. Let's maintain focus on this issue.
Feb 06 04:33:19 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Blame kai.
Feb 06 04:33:28 <Jimeee> please!
Feb 06 04:33:36 <Kaishiro> NOPE.avi. Blame Jimeee
Feb 06 04:33:48 <Jimeee> we need a community agreement so we can all go forth and categorise!!
Feb 06 04:34:03 <Jimeee> dont blame me!?
Feb 06 04:34:09 <Knives182> so yeah, i think having Nords & Skyrim: Nords is redundant...remove Nords from Greta's page, since Skyrim:Nords is listed on the Nords category page anyway
Feb 06 04:34:16 <Kaishiro> You brought up the conversation of cats, that'
Feb 06 04:34:22 <Kaishiro> that's what I was tlaking about
Feb 06 04:34:24 <Jimeee> it needs brought up!
Feb 06 04:34:28 <Kaishiro> I know!
Feb 06 04:34:30 * Rosenrot87 sighs
Feb 06 04:34:35 <Jimeee> i love this!
Feb 06 04:34:40 <Rosenrot87> i don't
Feb 06 04:34:41 <Kaishiro> me too!
Feb 06 04:34:47 <Jimeee> i do so much
Feb 06 04:34:52 <Jimeee> cats cats cats
Feb 06 04:35:04 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Guys, Rosenrot87 is gonna die.
Feb 06 04:35:10 <Kaishiro> and on that note, I'm leaving. g'night.
Feb 06 04:35:11 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Soon, if this doesn't get resolved.
Feb 06 04:35:20 <Deyvid> gn Kaishiro.
Feb 06 04:35:21 <Rosenrot87> jimeee i am not amused
Feb 06 04:35:34 <Knives182> look, the "i want it this way, this is my baby" attitude is not a wiki way of thinking
Feb 06 04:35:38 <Jimeee> so Knives makes a great point about cats having sub categories - but the problem is we are too far down the rabbit hole
Feb 06 04:35:48 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Knives182: you're doing the same thing though
Feb 06 04:35:53 <Kaishiro> badumtss
Feb 06 04:36:02 <Kaishiro> anyways night, for real.
Feb 06 04:36:12 <Knives182> no, im actually explaining the logic behind my argument, & attempting to have a constructive conversation
Feb 06 04:36:25 <Knives182> you recently told me something didnt need to have a certain category because "it just didnt"
Feb 06 04:36:36 <Knives182> im interested in what jimees saying
Feb 06 04:36:45 <Knives182> what do you mean by "too far down the rabbit hole"?
Feb 06 04:36:46 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Of course you are, because he's agreeing with you.
Feb 06 04:37:01 <HaLo2FrEeEk> People tend to want to listen to people who agree with them and want to ignore people who disagree.
Feb 06 04:37:12 <Knives182> im interested in what youre saying too if youll actually explain yourself
Feb 06 04:37:29 <Jimeee> well take locations in skyrim for example - all skyrim locations have a ton of cats attached to them.
Feb 06 04:37:46 <Knives182> indeed
Feb 06 04:37:49 <Jimeee> but we also have sub categories for these locations like camps, caves etc
Feb 06 04:38:29 <Jimeee> so i originally thought it might be tidy to not have "Skyrim: Location" or "Location" in a page like "Skytemple Ruins"
Feb 06 04:38:59 <Deyvid> I understand that logic.
Feb 06 04:38:59 <Knives182> i sense a "but" coming on...but do continue
Feb 06 04:39:08 <Deyvid> In this scenario, Locations and Skyrim: Locations would be master categories.
Feb 06 04:39:12 <Deyvid> With no articles in them
Feb 06 04:39:13 <Jimeee> anf instread have "Skyrim: Ruins" ----- then in the ruins cat link that to "Skyrim: Locations" ------and THEN link Sktrin Locations to Locations
Feb 06 04:39:25 <Knives182> thats exactly what im saying
Feb 06 04:39:29 <Knives182> & have been saying
Feb 06 04:39:42 <Knives182> or at least trying to
Feb 06 04:39:53 <Jimeee> and yes i agree with you - but we have so many cats now that its a massive clean up job
Feb 06 04:40:06 <Jimeee> and i dont think many admins would agree
Feb 06 04:40:27 <Knives182> why though? if you & deyvid both seem to feel that this is the better way to do things
Feb 06 04:40:30 <Jimeee> because it seems insane to remofe Skyrim Locations from a location ;page
Feb 06 04:40:46 <Jimeee> I would totally do it if people agreed
Feb 06 04:40:48 <Deyvid> Knives182, I wasn't advocating this position, merely explaining it.
Feb 06 04:40:50 <Knives182> eh...it's really not insane, for the reasons you just laid out
Feb 06 04:40:53 <Knives182> ok, sorry deyvid
Feb 06 04:41:01 <Deyvid> However, I'm willing to re-evaluate my current stance.
Feb 06 04:41:13 <Deyvid> I care more about what the community wants than my own personal opinions.
Feb 06 04:41:21 <Jimeee> Look at this page - it makes me want to cry: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Skyrim:_Locations
Feb 06 04:41:45 <Jimeee> there is no way to find anything unless you scroll to "S" page.
Feb 06 04:41:45 <Knives182> yeah man
Feb 06 04:42:07 <Deyvid> 90% of the information in the category needs to be deleted.
Feb 06 04:42:09 <Deyvid> Which I did.
Feb 06 04:42:20 <Knives182> because it's cluttered w/ a bunch of pages that belong to location subcategories
Feb 06 04:42:30 <Jimeee> It's actually why i made this page to make things a little cleared http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Locations_%28Skyrim%29
Feb 06 04:42:35 <Knives182> if all of them had SKyrim:Locations removed from them
Feb 06 04:42:37 <Deyvid> Not what I was referring to. I was written like an article.
Feb 06 04:42:42 <Knives182> & kept more specific location cats
Feb 06 04:42:48 <Knives182> then this page would be totally navigable
Feb 06 04:42:51 <Deyvid> Most of these categories are added via the infobox template.
Feb 06 04:43:13 <Deyvid> If we signed this newly proposed method into wikilaw, all we'd need to do is remove the categories from the templates.
Feb 06 04:43:25 <Jimeee> Ideally the Skyrim:Locations cat would only list locations sub cats like camps caves ruins etc. that is all.
Feb 06 04:43:30 <Deyvid> Just letting you guys know that a category-shift wouldn't be too difficult to execute.
Feb 06 04:43:41 <Deyvid> Jimeee, I hear you.
Feb 06 04:43:48 <Jimeee> convincing the community is the hard part.
Feb 06 04:44:05 <Knives182> well, deyvid, you seemed easily convinced enough by jimee
Feb 06 04:44:16 <Jimeee> I didn't speak up as I didn't think anyone would support my suggestion
Feb 06 04:44:19 <Knives182> honestly, i think if a veteran advocates it, it has a good chance--the logic is sound after all
Feb 06 04:44:25 <Knives182> its just no one wants to listen to the new guy
Feb 06 04:44:25 <Deyvid> I'm not saying I'm convinced. I'm a neutral party in this, for now.
Feb 06 04:44:30 <Knives182> whos messing w/ the status quo
Feb 06 04:44:37 <Knives182> which is frustrating, btw
Feb 06 04:44:49 <Jimeee> we should have agreed upon this before the game was out
Feb 06 04:45:07 <Jimeee> but me and deyvid only joined in november
Feb 06 04:45:17 <Knives182> ah i see
Feb 06 04:45:36 <Knives182> well, i think if you linked to that test page, ppl would see how much better the bigger cat pages would be if they noly listed subcategories
Feb 06 04:45:40 <Deyvid> Might I also add that the method of categorization both of you are suggesting WAS the method of standard before Skyrim's release.
Feb 06 04:45:40 <Jimeee> and along with the oblivion wiki merge it was a big mess.
Feb 06 04:45:43 * HaLo2FrEeEk sighs
Feb 06 04:45:51 <Knives182> ok, so it even has precedent
Feb 06 04:45:56 <Deyvid> Jimeee, this is also true.
Feb 06 04:46:08 <Knives182> seems like theres a pretty strong argument for this
Feb 06 04:46:10 <Jimeee> how did it come to this then?
Feb 06 04:46:25 <Jimeee> who started adding random cat to pages
Feb 06 04:46:28 <Knives182> the only ones against are that its "too difficult to institute" or that "this is the way things are done"
Feb 06 04:46:31 <Jimeee> and it began a trend
Feb 06 04:46:33 <Deyvid> Jimeee, well, on another Wiki I administrate. Our current method of categorization is also used.
Feb 06 04:46:42 <Deyvid> Plus, Timeoin was adding these boarder categories.
Feb 06 04:46:53 <Jimeee> broad cats is suicide.
Feb 06 04:46:54 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Deyvid, you just cannot spell, can you.
Feb 06 04:46:57 <Deyvid> Eventually, the admins and others agreed with the trunk-branch categorization .
Feb 06 04:47:05 <Deyvid> broader*
Feb 06 04:47:08 <HaLo2FrEeEk> :P
Feb 06 04:47:10 <Jimeee> for a series this big?
Feb 06 04:47:12 <Deyvid> I blame poor finger muslce-memory.
Feb 06 04:47:20 <Deyvid> My point exactly, Jimeee.
Feb 06 04:47:28 <Deyvid> The other wiki I edited could support this type of categorization.
Feb 06 04:47:31 <Deyvid> There were only three games.
Feb 06 04:47:41 <Jimeee> like we just talked about today "Swords" as a cat in not enough.
Feb 06 04:47:48 <Deyvid> Not to mention. It's no longer a wikia wiki, so sub-categories actually show up on the category page.
Feb 06 04:47:51 <Jimeee> Exactly dayvid!
Feb 06 04:48:08 <Knives182> rosenrot, u still there? does any of this make sense to you?
Feb 06 04:48:18 <HaLo2FrEeEk> She's crying.
Feb 06 04:48:23 <Jimeee> smaller wiki would be ok - but elder scrolls!?
Feb 06 04:48:24 <HaLo2FrEeEk> In a hole
Feb 06 04:48:27 <Jimeee> hahaha
Feb 06 04:48:43 <Jimeee> she works hard, but this must be hell.
Feb 06 04:48:49 <Knives182> ?
Feb 06 04:49:14 <HaLo2FrEeEk> She's worked ridiculously hard, and now everything is going to change, she wants to stop editing, felling like her work is being completely superceded.
Feb 06 04:49:28 <HaLo2FrEeEk> feeling*
Feb 06 04:49:30 <Knives182> if you dont want your work to be changed
Feb 06 04:49:33 <Rosenrot87> over the past 2 weeks you wouldn't believe how many categories i've fixed, it's all i've done
Feb 06 04:49:34 <Knives182> dont edit a collaborative wiki
Feb 06 04:49:39 <Knives182> ^
Feb 06 04:49:54 <Jimeee> Dude, I've worked hard too - I've been editing cats since November!!!
Feb 06 04:50:01 <Rosenrot87> not saying you haven't
Feb 06 04:50:12 <Knives182> we should all be committed to making the wiki the best it can be, not preserving pet projects
Feb 06 04:50:24 <Jimeee> i and even i agree that all my edits can change for the greated good
Feb 06 04:50:26 <Deyvid> Off topic: Who's keeping an eye on the RC?
Feb 06 04:50:28 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Knives182: Without sounding rude, we've established our current system, then one person, you, doesn't like it and decides that we have to change it. Why are you being any different than we are?
Feb 06 04:50:42 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I am, deyvid
Feb 06 04:50:44 <Rosenrot87> but a change like you guys want, a change that big, not just the fact that it'd be confusing to me, it'd cause me to scream in frustration constantly and i can't deal with that much heartburn, so i'd likely quit edits
Feb 06 04:50:49 <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, thank you.
Feb 06 04:50:49 <Knives182> because your system has some serious flaws
Feb 06 04:50:54 <Jimeee> It's not the case of doesnt like it Halo.
Feb 06 04:50:54 <Knives182> & is only being protected
Feb 06 04:50:57 <Knives182> because tis the status quo
Feb 06 04:51:07 <Knives182> i havent heard any good reason of why to preserve the current system
Feb 06 04:51:09 <Rosenrot87> not a threat or anything, just saying that's what would likely happen
Feb 06 04:51:12 <Deyvid> Knives182, I can easily our current method spiraling out of controlling. Creating a snow-ball effect.
Feb 06 04:51:23 <Jimeee> it's not a preferance thing
Feb 06 04:51:29 <Deyvid> What's to stop us from adding "In-universe articles" or even, god forbid, "Content" to all articles.
Feb 06 04:51:41 <Knives182> rosen, if ur gonna threaten to quit editing because something happens u dont like...
Feb 06 04:51:44 <Jimeee> Halo, its what's the right way or the not so right way of doing things
Feb 06 04:51:51 <Rosenrot87> i just said not a threat
Feb 06 04:51:53 <Rosenrot87> NOT A THREAT
Feb 06 04:51:55 <Rosenrot87> read would you?
Feb 06 04:51:56 <Knives182> thats melodramatic stuff thats totally unneeded on any wiki
Feb 06 04:52:06 <Rosenrot87> <Rosenrot87> not a threat or anything, just saying that's what would likely happen
Feb 06 04:52:12 <Jimeee> Rose dont worry so much
Feb 06 04:52:26 <Knives182> obv the wiki would be ill-served by your departure, but thats your choice
Feb 06 04:52:44 <Jimeee> Look at all the edits i've done so far - much of my categoriation will we wiped but I dont care as it makes a better wiki,
Feb 06 04:52:45 <Knives182> we cant make decisions based on how one person is going to react to them
Feb 06 04:52:51 <Knives182> this is basic stuff
Feb 06 04:53:00 <Jimeee> yes.
Feb 06 04:53:14 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Isn't that what we're doing right now?
Feb 06 04:53:34 <HaLo2FrEeEk> We've made a decision, the current system, and you don't like it. You. One person, and we're proposing a change to the whole established system
Feb 06 04:53:36 <Jimeee> I have been moaning about cats since I joined - dayvid will tell you, he's had to listen to me.
Feb 06 04:53:37 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Thousands of pages.
Feb 06 04:53:52 <Jimeee> Not one person Halo, I agree too.
Feb 06 04:53:56 <Knives182> lol, because i made good, logical, valid points for doing it this way
Feb 06 04:54:05 <Knives182> i didnt just say "ill quit if this doesnt go through!"
Feb 06 04:54:16 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Neither did she, fucking read!
Feb 06 04:54:18 <Knives182> or "we should use less categories...just because."
Feb 06 04:54:27 <Knives182> i explained my reasons
Feb 06 04:54:41 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Quit paraphrasing, in so doing you're completely changing what we've said.
Feb 06 04:54:42 <Knives182> & got someone willing to listen on board (who actually already thought this himself)
Feb 06 04:54:47 <Knives182> dude
Feb 06 04:54:50 <Knives182> allow me to copy & paste
Feb 06 04:54:51 <Knives182> 1 moment
Feb 06 04:54:53 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Please do.
Feb 06 04:55:26 <Jimeee> Halo, it's not a good system we have for categorisation right now. Think of a new user navigation the site. It's a trainwreck of they are going by the cats sometimes.
Feb 06 04:55:35 <Knives182> 04:27] <@HaLo2FrEeEk> It doesn't need to be in either misc. cat. [04:27] <Knives182> why [04:27] <@HaLo2FrEeEk> Because it doesn't.
Feb 06 04:55:44 <Knives182> perhaps you need to f***ing red, halo
Feb 06 04:55:51 <HaLo2FrEeEk> The misc cat didn't need to be on Azura's Star because it doesn't really count as a misc item. Although it is in the misc category, the game files do not categorize it as a misc item, they categorize it as a daedric artifact/ soul gem
Feb 06 04:56:03 <Knives182> yeah, & thats what you shouldve said the 1st time isnt it
Feb 06 04:56:05 <Knives182> but you didnt
Feb 06 04:56:08 <Knives182> as evidenced above
Feb 06 04:56:09 <Knives182> so...ya
Feb 06 04:56:13 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Because I don't have to explain myself to you.
Feb 06 04:56:29 <Knives182> lol
Feb 06 04:56:36 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I could have gone right then and there and removed those categories myself and completely ignored your question.
Feb 06 04:56:37 <Knives182> actually, you do. part of working on a collaborative effort
Feb 06 04:56:37 <Jimeee> Happy thoughts
Feb 06 04:56:48 <Knives182> is explaining yourself to the community
Feb 06 04:57:00 <Knives182> which, sorry to break it to you, i am also a aprt of
Feb 06 04:57:15 <Jimeee> be nice, people.
Feb 06 04:57:29 <Knives182> sorry. although i think im being pretty nice given his attitude all conversation
Feb 06 04:57:48 <Jimeee> Deyvid, what is Elch and Tims thoughts on this - if any?
Feb 06 04:58:07 <Deyvid> Originally, I believe Elchzard was opposed to our current method.
Feb 06 04:58:14 <Deyvid> But later agreed, once I explained it to him.
Feb 06 04:58:24 <Deyvid> Timeoin is part of the reason we have the current method.
Feb 06 04:58:29 <Jimeee> So you somewhat agree with me?
Feb 06 04:58:36 <Jimeee> or my reasoning?
Feb 06 04:58:46 <Deyvid> I can see valid points behind both arguments.
Feb 06 04:59:11 <Jimeee> Ok, what you you as a person just browsing the wiki prefer?
Feb 06 04:59:19 <Deyvid> I think this category shift would alleviate some of (most of) the category tension I've been feeling lately from other users.
Feb 06 04:59:41 <Deyvid> Such a radical change would surely cause some "shock", as people learn the newer method.
Feb 06 04:59:52 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Deyvid: Do we really need to stretch ourselves even thinner with this massive change?
Feb 06 05:00:15 <Jimeee> In what way are we streaching outselves thinner?
Feb 06 05:00:16 <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, while the change affects many, many pages (almost all of them), 90% of the categories on pages are added through templates.
Feb 06 05:00:29 <Deyvid> If we remove the categories from the template, it would change a large chunck automatically.
Feb 06 05:00:33 <Jimeee> I like many other editors are alaviable to work in this change.
Feb 06 05:00:47 <Knives182> yeah, im happy to put plenty of labor into this
Feb 06 05:00:55 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Well sure, but some people don't realize that the cats are added by the templte and they add them manually as well.
Feb 06 05:01:02 <Deyvid> Most character pages and item pages would have to be done manually.
Feb 06 05:01:07 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Which means we have to find those pages and remove the manually added cats.
Feb 06 05:01:14 <Jimeee> bot?
Feb 06 05:01:19 <Deyvid> HaLo2FrEeEk, we also have bots to help with tedious edits.
Feb 06 05:01:26 <Knives182> most new users edit by example...theyll look to other pages & see how theyre categorized
Feb 06 05:01:27 <Jimeee> easy
Feb 06 05:01:41 <Knives182> if we fix the pages, ppl will pick up that thats the way cats are done around here
Feb 06 05:01:57 <Knives182> more experienced users who r used to the old system, meanwhile, probably check the forums & could be noticied by a thread
Feb 06 05:02:00 <Jimeee> If we set in stone this is the way it should be done that thats all we need.
Feb 06 05:02:05 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Just so you're aware, there are 5118 NPC records in the Skyrim.esm file.
Feb 06 05:02:07 <Deyvid> Site-wide messages and blogs could help raise awareness as well, if this passes.
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Feb 06 05:02:23 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Since some of those are NPC templates, it's safe to say there are probably around 3000 unique NPCs in the game.
Feb 06 05:02:43 <Jimeee> My argument will always be just look at the locations cat page and tell me that makes any sense.
Feb 06 05:02:56 <Jimeee> anr the Characters page,.
Feb 06 05:03:02 <Jimeee> or*
Feb 06 05:03:03 <HaLo2FrEeEk> As for items. There are 371 misc items.
Feb 06 05:03:11 <HaLo2FrEeEk> 2762 armor items
Feb 06 05:03:19 <Knives182> Removing a category from a page is about as easy as an edit gets
Feb 06 05:03:21 <HaLo2FrEeEk> 821 books/letters/notes
Feb 06 05:03:23 <Knives182> sure there are a lot
Feb 06 05:03:27 <Knives182> but weve a lot of dedicated editors
Feb 06 05:03:28 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Right...one page.
Feb 06 05:03:28 <Knives182> bot
Feb 06 05:03:29 <Knives182> & time
Feb 06 05:03:35 <Knives182> it doesnt need to be done all in one night
Feb 06 05:03:36 <Jimeee> these numbers are nothing if we have the editors to do the work.
Feb 06 05:03:50 <Knives182> anyway, all youre doing is arguing that itll be a pain to change...but the issue is, the change itself is warranted
Feb 06 05:03:55 <Knives182> it would improve the wiki as a whole
Feb 06 05:03:57 <Jimeee> 10 of us will do it in no time.
Feb 06 05:03:58 <Knives182> & thats what matters
Feb 06 05:04:00 <Knives182> or should matter.
Feb 06 05:04:04 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Jimeee, do we? Do we have to do this on top of stopping the never-ceasing flood of vandalism, page blankers, profanes, etc.?
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Feb 06 05:04:24 <Knives182> do we have to do anything?
Feb 06 05:04:31 <Knives182> do we have to adhere to proper grammar?
Feb 06 05:04:31 <Jimeee> I like many other editore have the time to do it.
Feb 06 05:04:41 <Knives182> do we have to use categories at all?
Feb 06 05:04:44 <Knives182> cmon man
Feb 06 05:04:51 <Knives182> youre resisting just for the sake of resisting
Feb 06 05:04:55 <Knives182> just get on board
Feb 06 05:05:17 <Jimeee> these will ALWAYS be work to do on this wiki. vandalism, page blankers, profane will never stop.
Feb 06 05:05:24 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I don't. As much as I WANT to move up in this wiki, and I do like none of you could imagine, I don't have the time. I have to juggle job hunting, personal life (I'm married) and other projects like the family business we're starting.
Feb 06 05:05:54 <Jimeee> Noboby is telling you to sit down and change the cats halo.
Feb 06 05:06:10 <Jimeee> other editors will do this
Feb 06 05:06:24 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Knives182: I'm resisting because I like the current system. I, like you, got used to it a certain way. I, unlike you, do not see the logic in changing it just because another wiki does it that way.
Feb 06 05:06:38 <Knives182> then you should read above
Feb 06 05:06:45 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I did.
Feb 06 05:06:47 <Knives182> i stated much more compelling reasons than that many times over
Feb 06 05:06:56 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Just because I don't reply to everything everyone says doesn't mean I don't read it.
Feb 06 05:06:59 <Jimeee> Halo - it's not bacause another wiki does it - it's bacause it makes sense.
Feb 06 05:07:05 <Knives182> they made sense to jimee &, eventually, to deyvid (some at least)
Feb 06 05:07:10 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Not to me it doesn't.
Feb 06 05:07:14 <Knives182> noted.
Feb 06 05:07:43 <Jimeee> well this is why we need community talk about it.
Feb 06 05:07:51 <Knives182> agreed
Feb 06 05:08:04 <Rosenrot87> knives, since you seem to love quoting what others have said or done as your examples http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/index.php?title=Broken_Azura%27s_Star&diff=prev&oldid=403612 i don't see these changes you made on this page as being necessary ones
Feb 06 05:08:14 <Jimeee> Halo - I have explained why the current system is bad - look at locations cat page.
Feb 06 05:08:16 <Rosenrot87> i think you removed relevant categories
Feb 06 05:08:48 <Jimeee> Halo?
Feb 06 05:08:51 <HaLo2FrEeEk> http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/?diff=403612
Feb 06 05:08:56 <HaLo2FrEeEk> You did remove relevant cats
Feb 06 05:09:32 <Knives182> you guys...youre just making this a personal attack now
Feb 06 05:09:32 <HaLo2FrEeEk> I'm busy. I'm trying to upload the shout sounds, as well as do a few more renders before I need to go to sleep because I have to watch my nephew tomorrow.
Feb 06 05:09:36 <Jimeee> Some would say they are not relevant
Feb 06 05:09:44 <Knives182> even if the edits youre linking were wrong somehow
Feb 06 05:09:44 <HaLo2FrEeEk> You removed Artifacts.
Feb 06 05:09:54 <Knives182> because Daedric Artifacts is a subcat of Artifacts
Feb 06 05:10:02 <Jimeee> I agree.
Feb 06 05:10:29 <HaLo2FrEeEk> And? Not all artifacts are daedric artifacts but all daedric artifacts are artifacts.
Feb 06 05:10:34 <Jimeee> We cant have cats going back 10 sub-cats on one page. that is insanity.
Feb 06 05:10:39 <Knives182> right...the way the hierarchical system works
Feb 06 05:10:43 <Knives182> that is clearly expressed
Feb 06 05:10:52 <Knives182> Daedric artifacts is a subcat of Artifacts, NOT the other way around
Feb 06 05:11:12 <Knives182> it goes like this
Feb 06 05:11:30 <Knives182> skyrim: deadric artifacts > daedric artifacts > artifacts
Feb 06 05:11:31 <Knives182> for example
Feb 06 05:12:22 <Jimeee> Exactly - A sword cannot have "Items" - "Skyrim: Items" - "Weapons" - "Skyrim: Weapons" and so on - most of the cats are redundant.
Feb 06 05:12:32 <Knives182> ^^^^^^
Feb 06 05:12:40 <Rosenrot87> i don't see the change you want to happen as being necessary, i agree there is a point that the current way could be too messy but i look at pages and if it's long and i don't want to read the actual page i scroll down to the categories to see what it is quickly, if it just has two categories then well damn i have to spend a while reading it before continuing the game cause it doesn't tell me everything there
Feb 06 05:12:52 <Jimeee> it makes categorisation pointless if we are just lumping everything into 1 thing.
Feb 06 05:13:01 <Rosenrot87> it doesn't link it to it's relevant categories
Feb 06 05:13:04 <Knives182> spend a while reading what?
Feb 06 05:13:12 <Knives182> it links to the MOST relevant
Feb 06 05:13:14 <Rosenrot87> i don't have an example on hand
Feb 06 05:13:18 <Knives182> Skyrim:Daedric artifacts
Feb 06 05:13:24 <Knives182> thats the most specific, most relevant
Feb 06 05:13:29 <Knives182> if you want more general
Feb 06 05:13:31 <Knives182> (less relevant)
Feb 06 05:13:37 <Knives182> thats what the subcategories are for
Feb 06 05:13:46 <Knives182> if we stop putting bunches of categories on every page
Feb 06 05:13:53 <Knives182> the master category pages will actually be navigable
Feb 06 05:13:55 <Jimeee> Rose, that makes no sense.
Feb 06 05:14:00 <Knives182> see Jimee's test locations page above
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Feb 06 05:14:07 <Rosenrot87> i don't want to go hopping through ten pages to find something related but a bit more distantly related to the current page
Feb 06 05:14:17 <Jimeee> sub cats are set up for this very reason.
Feb 06 05:14:24 <Knives182> then why do you want that distant relation clogging up the categories of the page itself?!@
Feb 06 05:14:41 <Jimeee> maybe you dont want to - but that does not make it wrong.
Feb 06 05:14:46 <Knives182> yeah, exactly, the whole fact that sucategories are part of the interface shows this is what was intended imo
Feb 06 05:14:50 <Knives182> theyre there for a reason
Feb 06 05:15:04 <Jimeee> Does Wikipedia do this?
Feb 06 05:15:14 <Knives182> good question
Feb 06 05:15:14 <Jimeee> Look at the experts.
Feb 06 05:15:23 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Are we wikipedia?
Feb 06 05:15:42 <Knives182> we should strive to meet their standards
Feb 06 05:15:45 <HaLo2FrEeEk> Are you going to suggest we look at how UESP does it next?
Feb 06 05:15:48 <Jimeee> It pains me to see such a good wiki like this still having fundamental probems with categorisation.
Feb 06 05:16:06 <Knives182> wikipedia is definitely an acceptible wiki to emulate
Feb 06 05:16:08 <Jimeee> Halo, no need for that.
Feb 06 05:16:11 <Knives182> i have enormous respect for them
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Feb 06 05:16:17 <Jimeee> im trying to help here.
Feb 06 05:16:19 <Knives182> a sentiment im def not alone in
Feb 06 05:16:25 <Deyvid> hey Flightmare
Feb 06 05:16:26 <Flightmare> hi
Feb 06 05:16:40 <Jimeee> join the fun flightmare.
Feb 06 05:16:51 <Flightmare> short summary?
Feb 06 05:16:59 <Jimeee> CATS"
Feb 06 05:17:06 <Jimeee> meow.
Feb 06 05:17:16 <Deyvid> Also, claws.
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Feb 06 05:17:23 <Jimeee> 15 points!
Feb 06 05:17:26 <Knives182> [05:12] <@Jimeee> Exactly - A sword cannot have "Items" - "Skyrim: Items" - "Weapons" - "Skyrim: Weapons" and so on - most of the cats are redundant.
Feb 06 05:17:35 <Knives182> ^summary
Feb 06 05:17:53 <Deyvid> Personally, I think the "Items" categories are altogether redundant.
Feb 06 05:18:02 <Jimeee> There is no shame in looking at wikipedia for example.
Feb 06 05:18:39 <Jimeee> "it's how we do it and it's how I like it" is not an argument.
Feb 06 05:18:40 <Deyvid> On the recond, Wikipedia does not categorize hierarchically.
Feb 06 05:18:52 <Deyvid> I'm an editor there also.
Feb 06 05:19:43 <Knives182> Categories are normally found at the bottom of an article page. Clicking the category name brings up a category page listing the articles (or other pages) that have been added to that particular category. There may also be a section listing the subcategories of that category. The subcategorization feature makes it possible to organize categories into tree-like structures to aid navigation.
Feb 06 05:19:49 <Knives182> from their help:categories page
Feb 06 05:20:14 <Jimeee> So what im your opinion is the road to take deyvid? You have so much more exp that most of us here witht wiki stuff.
Feb 06 05:20:28 <Jimeee> is your*
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Feb 06 05:22:11 <Jimeee> **deathly silence**
Feb 06 05:23:48 <Knives182> while i dont know exactly how wikipedia structures their categories, i just checked a random page--chose "apple"--& what i think is important is that there r only 3 categories displayed at the bottom of the page
Feb 06 05:23:56 <Deyvid> Apologies. I was cleaning up Ysolda.
Feb 06 05:23:56 <Trixie> [WIKI]: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Ysolda
Feb 06 05:24:00 <Knives182> not 11, like the everage item/location page around here
Feb 06 05:24:14 <Knives182> whatever their system, they proiritize brevity
Feb 06 05:24:28 <Deyvid> Brevity, yes.
Feb 06 05:24:37 <Deyvid> Only the most-specific relevant categories belong on artiles.
Feb 06 05:24:48 <Deyvid> articles*
Feb 06 05:24:52 <Deyvid> Today is not my day for spelling.
Feb 06 05:24:56 <Knives182> lol
Feb 06 05:25:11 <Jimeee> In my opinion we now need a proposal to put to the community and the admins. To get this decided once and for all.
Feb 06 05:25:38 <Jimeee> Wherever the decision it needs to he followed by all.
Feb 06 05:27:00 <Jimeee> I don't know how we do this - if its a community vote or if it's all down to Timeoin's desicion or the admins.
Feb 06 05:27:12 <Jimeee> Deyvid?
Feb 06 05:27:36 <Deyvid> I'd be interested to learn about Tim's position on this.
Feb 06 05:27:48 <Deyvid> But the admin's don't/shouldn't have the final say in any wikimatter.
Feb 06 05:27:52 <Deyvid> admins*
Feb 06 05:27:52 <Jimeee> I have a bad feeling he will hate the idea.
Feb 06 05:27:55 <Deyvid> /bad grammar
Feb 06 05:28:02 <Deyvid> Jimeee, possibly not.
Feb 06 05:28:07 <Jimeee> this is why i never said anytihng.
Feb 06 05:28:10 <Deyvid> And if there is an overwhelming consensus against him.
Feb 06 05:28:14 <Deyvid> He has no right to object.
Feb 06 05:28:47 <Jimeee> Well we have been at this for over 1 hour.
Feb 06 05:28:50 <Bunie> position on one?
Feb 06 05:28:51 <Bunie> what?*
Feb 06 05:28:59 <Deyvid> Categorization of the wiki.
Feb 06 05:29:01 <Jimeee> i think we all have said what needed to be said.
Feb 06 05:29:09 <Knives182> how are we going to put this to Tim/the community/whoever
Feb 06 05:29:15 <Knives182> what is the next step
Feb 06 05:29:16 <Deyvid> One argument holds that we keep the current categorization style of trunk-branches.
Feb 06 05:29:18 <Bunie> BLOW IT UP
Feb 06 05:29:19 <Bunie> :P
Feb 06 05:29:30 <Deyvid> The next argument is to only categorize articles with the most-specific cateogries possible.
Feb 06 05:29:42 <Deyvid> Removing the over-arching categories and turning those categories into "category directories" so to speak.
Feb 06 05:30:01 <Jimeee> sub cats
Feb 06 05:30:13 <Deyvid> I'm creating a forum topic now.
Feb 06 05:30:18 <Deyvid> I'll link to a log I've made of this chat.
Feb 06 05:30:20 <Jimeee> imaging how easy browsing would be.
Feb 06 05:30:23 <Deyvid> So people can see it.
Feb 06 05:30:40 <Knives182> ok ty deyvid
Feb 06 05:31:11 <Knives182> would be good to link to jimees test locations page in the opening post methinks
Feb 06 05:32:29 <Jimeee> Knives
Feb 06 05:33:05 <Jimeee> check out http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Skyrim:_Cities. This was my attempt at sub cats somewhat.
Feb 06 05:33:35 <Knives182> looks awesome to me
Feb 06 05:33:50 <Knives182> sooooo much better than 200+ entries popping up
Feb 06 05:34:02 <Knives182> but theyre all still there, essentially
Feb 06 05:34:09 <Knives182> theyre just organized by subcat
Feb 06 05:34:27 <Jimeee> which is why an so for change.
Feb 06 05:34:37 <Jimeee> i'm*
Feb 06 05:35:02 <Jimeee> I always think if I was a new user - how would I find stuff.
Feb 06 05:35:13 <Jimeee> and then I look at a category page and cry.
Feb 06 05:35:17 <Knives182> haha
Feb 06 05:35:27 <Knives182> yeam im w/ you 100%...it looks better, reads better, is more intuitive...& as ppl have pointed out, it's totally doable
Feb 06 05:35:30 <Jimeee> because a new user would be screwed.
Feb 06 05:35:59 <Jimeee> we all know this wiki inside out - so we dont mind. but the wiki is not for us.
Feb 06 05:36:19 <Jimeee> casual users.
Feb 06 05:36:26 <Knives182> indeed...important to remmeber that fact i think
Feb 06 05:36:43 <Jimeee> that is who will come to this wiki and decide if it's the place to stay.
Feb 06 05:36:46 <Knives182> its not for us or our pet projects...we shouldnt do things certain ways because thats how we "want it done"...

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